I read that too, I think the issue may be regarding trespassing and the fact that the shooting occurred "outside the home". Arizona law, deadly force is allowed on one's own property if the homeowner (it doesn't say property) believes it 'immediately necessary' to prevent trespassing.
But under Arizona law, deadly force is allowed on one's own property if the homeowner believes it 'immediately necessary' to prevent trespassing.
.... It seems he did exactly that.
Does not appear to be true. Can threaten deadly force but can't use deadly force unless there is a threat of deadly force (have to link from 13-407 back to 13-405).
I had a land owner threaten me on Facebook They are in the same Community as I have Property in Arizona.
So I replied back to them. That If I caught them on my property. I would shoot to kill with no warning.
They called the Sheriff on me. The Sheriff called me from Arizona to Commyfornia and asked me if I threatened this Family.
I told the Sheriff what they had done on Facebook and that if i caught them on my property that I would Kill Them. That this was not a threat it was a Warning
They have no right on my property after they Threatened me the way they did.
The Sheriff agreed with me and told me that it was a Warning and that it was an official Warning due to them contacting the Sheriff.
It will be interesting what the Libtards do to this Rancher with the legal system in Arizona now that a Lib has stolen the Election.
Every gun owner should have that memorized, because that is about the only thing you need to say to the cops if you shoot someone. After that shut up until you get a good lawyer.
I would have told the Sheriff to get off my property and don't come back unless you have a warrant! Did I miss it, did the rancher admit shooting the illegal?
I would have told the Sheriff to get off my property and don't come back unless you have a warrant! Did I miss it, did the rancher admit shooting the illegal?
There is alot of posts on the web telling what they would do if they were on the border. And asking why this or that isn’t being done by the landowners. This story explains why a lot of stuff isn’t being done. Unfortunately the wets have more rights than citizens. Hasbeen
I believe the illegals need to create the life they are seeking in their own country. As it is they are destroying ours. To many people putting a strain on our public services. Our forefathers created this country from nothing. Illegals can do the same In Theirs. Kind of like democrats moving to red states. They are seeking freedom, but wind up trying to turn their new home to the sh T hole they left. Hasbeen
I know the area, used to camp a couple miles east coues hunting, 90s early 2000s. I had plenty of run'ins with crossers back then. Most hostile was coming off a mountain and a couple guys pop out in front of me, asking where my truck was, and not nicely. I didn't say a word, stared them in the eyes, walked right by them, they got the idea fast enough I'd shoot them if needed I suppose.
There has to be more to the story if the rancher or ranchetter... I don't know the guy or if he's an old time Az rancher or someone that bought some ranchette and calls himself one... anyway if the guy picks one crosser out of the thousands that cross his property a year to shoot, something happened.
I believe the illegals need to create the life they are seeking in their own country. As it is they are destroying ours. To many people putting a strain on our public services. Our forefathers created this country from nothing. Illegals can do the same In Theirs. Kind of like democrats moving to red states. They are seeking freedom, but wind up trying to turn their new home to the sh T hole they left. Hasbeen
How? They live in cartel land...and just over that fence is freedom...
I know the area, used to camp a couple miles east coues hunting, 90s early 2000s. I had plenty of run'ins with crossers back then. Most hostile was coming off a mountain and a couple guys pop out in front of me, asking where my truck was, and not nicely. I didn't say a word, stared them in the eyes, walked right by them, they got the idea fast enough I'd shoot them if needed I suppose.
There has to be more to the story if the rancher or ranchetter... I don't know the guy or if he's an old time Az rancher or someone that bought some ranchette and calls himself one... anyway if the guy picks one crosser out of the thousands that cross his property a year to shoot, something happened.
I believe the illegals need to create the life they are seeking in their own country. As it is they are destroying ours. To many people putting a strain on our public services. Our forefathers created this country from nothing. Illegals can do the same In Theirs. Kind of like democrats moving to red states. They are seeking freedom, but wind up trying to turn their new home to the sh T hole they left. Hasbeen
How? They live in cartel land...and just over that fence is freedom...
Would you not cross to feed your wife and kids?
I’ve read several stories of small towns in Mexico that went vigilante and cleaned up their towns. It’s just easier to head north for all the taxpayer freebies. Hasbeen
I believe the illegals need to create the life they are seeking in their own country. As it is they are destroying ours. To many people putting a strain on our public services. Our forefathers created this country from nothing. Illegals can do the same In Theirs. Kind of like democrats moving to red states. They are seeking freedom, but wind up trying to turn their new home to the sh T hole they left. Hasbeen
How? They live in cartel land...and just over that fence is freedom...
Would you not cross to feed your wife and kids?
I’ve read several stories of small towns in Mexico that went vigilante and cleaned up their towns. It’s just easier to head north for all the taxpayer freebies. Hasbeen
Nice try.
Would you cross a fence to give your wife and kids food, freedom, education?
But under Arizona law, deadly force is allowed on one's own property if the homeowner believes it 'immediately necessary' to prevent trespassing.
.... It seems he did exactly that.
Does not appear to be true. Can threaten deadly force but can't use deadly force unless there is a threat of deadly force (have to link from 13-407 back to 13-405).
Rancher 73...... illegal in 40s, disparity in age and physically possibly? Personally all illegals should be shot, its a felony and they're a drain on our country, culturally and financially. Come here legally or not at all.
I believe the illegals need to create the life they are seeking in their own country. As it is they are destroying ours. To many people putting a strain on our public services. Our forefathers created this country from nothing. Illegals can do the same In Theirs. Kind of like democrats moving to red states. They are seeking freedom, but wind up trying to turn their new home to the sh T hole they left. Hasbeen
How? They live in cartel land...and just over that fence is freedom...
Would you not cross to feed your wife and kids?
I’ve read several stories of small towns in Mexico that went vigilante and cleaned up their towns. It’s just easier to head north for all the taxpayer freebies. Hasbeen
Nice try.
Would you cross a fence to give your wife and kids food, freedom, education?
Would you cross a fence to give your wife and kids FREE food, FREE housing, freedom from having to work and FREE education? FIFY
I believe the illegals need to create the life they are seeking in their own country. As it is they are destroying ours. To many people putting a strain on our public services. Our forefathers created this country from nothing. Illegals can do the same In Theirs. Kind of like democrats moving to red states. They are seeking freedom, but wind up trying to turn their new home to the sh T hole they left. Hasbeen
How? They live in cartel land...and just over that fence is freedom...
Would you not cross to feed your wife and kids?
I’ve read several stories of small towns in Mexico that went vigilante and cleaned up their towns. It’s just easier to head north for all the taxpayer freebies. Hasbeen
Nice try.
Would you cross a fence to give your wife and kids food, freedom, education?
Would you cross a fence to give your wife and kids FREE food, FREE housing, freedom from having to work and FREE education? FIFY
You "noticed the Arizona guys were quiet". I went back through the thread to see what you might be getting at, with that comment. Couldn't figure it out, so I asked you. You said there wasn't really an angle there, just that there must be more to the story. I agree. Unless you've got more on your mind with the Arizona guys, I don't have much more to add there.
You "noticed the Arizona guys were quiet". I went back through the thread to see what you might be getting at, with that comment. Couldn't figure it out, so I asked you. You said there wasn't really an angle there, just that there must be more to the story. I agree. Unless you've got more on your mind with the Arizona guys, I don't have much more to add there.
I said the AZ guys are quiet.
I'm betting there is a reason...aka more to this story.
Really for the prosecution it probably boiled down to whether the person crossed on open real property, which is property unmarked or unfenced. At this point a person has to be told they are trespassing. If it unmarked unfenced open real property the rancher is screwed.
Really for the prosecution it probably boiled down to whether the person crossed on open real property, which is property unmarked or unfenced. At this point a person has to be told they are trespassing. If it unmarked unfenced open real property the rancher is screwed.
Really for the prosecution it probably boiled down to whether the person crossed on open real property, which is property unmarked or unfenced. At this point a person has to be told they are trespassing. If it unmarked unfenced open real property the rancher is screwed.
There is more to the story.
Ummm yes always but what specifically are you getting at?
It’s real simple. Most of the world’s population would like to come for the freebies. Really it’s only democrat liberals who think it’s ok. And a few bleeding hearts who think they can save the world. Problem is if they keep coming we will end up like the place they left. Hasbeen
It’s real simple. Most of the world’s population would like to come for the freebies. Really it’s only democrat liberals who think it’s ok. And a few bleeding hearts who think they can save the world. Problem is if they keep coming we will end up like the place they left. Hasbeen
Really for the prosecution it probably boiled down to whether the person crossed on open real property, which is property unmarked or unfenced. At this point a person has to be told they are trespassing. If it unmarked unfenced open real property the rancher is screwed.
There is more to the story.
Ummm yes always but what specifically are you getting at?
I said earlier AZ guys arent talking. If you know the area etc, there is more to this story.
It’s real simple. Most of the world’s population would like to come for the freebies. Really it’s only democrat liberals who think it’s ok. And a few bleeding hearts who think they can save the world. Problem is if they keep coming we will end up like the place they left. Hasbeen
It’s real simple. Most of the world’s population would like to come for the freebies. Really it’s only democrat liberals who think it’s ok. And a few bleeding hearts who think they can save the world. Problem is if they keep coming we will end up like the place they left. Hasbeen
No.
Yes
Nope. Explain it without establishing that this country is wealthy, set up programs to make sure others don't starve,
And then state...you would not cross a fence to make sure your wife and kids can eat.
It’s real simple. Most of the world’s population would like to come for the freebies. Really it’s only democrat liberals who think it’s ok. And a few bleeding hearts who think they can save the world. Problem is if they keep coming we will end up like the place they left. Hasbeen
No.
Yes
Nope. Explain it without establishing that this country is wealthy, set up programs to make sure others don't starve,
And then state...you would not cross a fence to make sure your wife and kids can eat.
Then we can talk...
I don’t guess we are seeing the same illegals. They are not crossing because their children are starving. They are crossing for more money. Free education and health care. Wake up. Hasbeen
It’s real simple. Most of the world’s population would like to come for the freebies. Really it’s only democrat liberals who think it’s ok. And a few bleeding hearts who think they can save the world. Problem is if they keep coming we will end up like the place they left. Hasbeen
No.
Yes
Nope. Explain it without establishing that this country is wealthy, set up programs to make sure others don't starve,
And then state...you would not cross a fence to make sure your wife and kids can eat.
Then we can talk...
I don’t guess we are seeing the same illegals. They are not crossing because their children are starving. They are crossing for more money. Free education and health care. Wake up. Hasbeen
I asked a simple question.
Yes or no?
Would you as a husband and father cross that fence to feed your family?
I don’t guess we are seeing the same illegals. They are not crossing because their children are starving. They are crossing for more money. Free education and health care. Wake up. Hasbeen
They sure don't seem to be starving when they get here from other countries..
They damn sure don't mind crashing stolen vehicles through private ranch fences here, or footing it through private property in large groups to meet up with transportation networks to take them wherever they want to go.
Cartels run the whole show. Both human and drug trafficking. The people coming across are enslaved to the cartels, or pay them large amounts of money up front for transportation.
There's several facets to the story, and you really hear none of it on MSM.
I don’t guess we are seeing the same illegals. They are not crossing because their children are starving. They are crossing for more money. Free education and health care. Wake up. Hasbeen
They sure don't seem to be starving when they get here from other countries..
They damn sure don't mind crashing stolen vehicles through private ranch fences here, or footing it through private property in large groups to meet up with transportation networks to take them wherever they want to go.
Cartels run the whole show. Both human and drug trafficking. The people coming across are enslaved to the cartels, or pay them large amounts of money up front for transportation.
There's several facets to the story, and you really hear none of it on MSM.
Isn't a Pick-up, a 18 pack, and a Ranch Rifle like a regular tuesday night in Southern Arizona ?
If a person lives in Manchester, NH and has the usual knowledge/reasoning and biases characteristic of that place - who knows what may seem like a normal Tuesday night in Southern, AZ? Knowledge is power - ignorance is ??
I just hope the shooter wasn't one of "those guys" who frequents outdoor/gun forums and has typed something like "I dare one of those wetbacks/beaners/whatever to step on my property, he'll regret it for the remainder of his short life" or some other such blather.
Irrespective of how justified the shoot may have been, things like that will put one on the fast track to the state pen, even if only intended as chest-thumping, posturing or just trying to fit in. I cringe when I see people post stuff like that on this and other forums.
Isn't a Pick-up, a 18 pack, and a Ranch Rifle like a regular tuesday night in Southern Arizona ?
If a person lives in Manchester, NH and has the usual knowledge/reasoning and biases characteristic of that place - who knows what may seem like a normal Tuesday night in Southern, AZ? Knowledge is power - ignorance is ??
I would probably rob and steal as a last resort to feed my family. But that is not the situation here. There are people starving people in this world but it’s not these folks. Hasbeen
I would probably rob and steal as a last resort to feed my family. But that is not the situation here. There are people starving people in this world but it’s not these folks. Hasbeen
I would probably rob and steal as a last resort to feed my family. But that is not the situation here. There are people starving people in this world but it’s not these folks. Hasbeen
Says you?
But I agree now...
Ymmv
The starving folks are stuck where they are at. They don’t have the money or energy to move. Hasbeen
I would probably rob and steal as a last resort to feed my family. But that is not the situation here. There are people starving people in this world but it’s not these folks. Hasbeen
Says you?
But I agree now...
Ymmv
The starving folks are stuck where they are at. They don’t have the money or energy to move. Hasbeen
I don’t guess we are seeing the same illegals. They are not crossing because their children are starving. They are crossing for more money. Free education and health care. Wake up. Hasbeen
They sure don't seem to be starving when they get here from other countries..
They damn sure don't mind crashing stolen vehicles through private ranch fences here, or footing it through private property in large groups to meet up with transportation networks to take them wherever they want to go.
Cartels run the whole show. Both human and drug trafficking. The people coming across are enslaved to the cartels, or pay them large amounts of money up front for transportation.
There's several facets to the story, and you really hear none of it on MSM.
The rest of the story is. It doesn’t take long for the wets to get established. And as soon as they do they start sending money back home. Better known as Remittances. When the taxpayers pay for everything there is money to spare. At one time this money was second next to oil for Mexico. Hasbeen
I don’t guess we are seeing the same illegals. They are not crossing because their children are starving. They are crossing for more money. Free education and health care. Wake up. Hasbeen
They sure don't seem to be starving when they get here from other countries..
They damn sure don't mind crashing stolen vehicles through private ranch fences here, or footing it through private property in large groups to meet up with transportation networks to take them wherever they want to go.
Cartels run the whole show. Both human and drug trafficking. The people coming across are enslaved to the cartels, or pay them large amounts of money up front for transportation.
There's several facets to the story, and you really hear none of it on MSM.
The rest of the story is. It doesn’t take long for the wets to get established. And as soon as they do they start sending money back home. Better known as Remittances. When the taxpayers pay for everything there is money to spare. At one time this money was second next to oil for Mexico. Hasbeen
It’s a damn shame any of this happens. One man’s life may be ruined and another man’s life is taken because our government leaders on both sides of the aisle can’t/won’t focus on effectively protecting our borders. And it’s not just a Trump vs. Biden ideology. It’s been going on for decades through several administrations. Easier to point across the aisle than do the jobs we pay them to do! Meanwhile, they’re all lining their pockets!
I'd like to hear more about the Border Patrol calling the Sheriff hours earlier of an active shooting and an 'Allen' reporting he may have been shot at... hours before the fatal shooting.
I'd like to hear more about the Border Patrol calling the Sheriff hours earlier of an active shooting and an 'Allen' reporting he may have been shot at... hours before the fatal shooting.
Kent
Unlike most here, I know you have been down there.
I'd like to hear more about the Border Patrol calling the Sheriff hours earlier of an active shooting and an 'Allen' reporting he may have been shot at... hours before the fatal shooting.
Kent
Unlike most here, I know you have been down there.
I line distanced with On X hunt, I literally used to camp 1.7 miles from Kelly's house. Camped there 8 times that I remembered.
I'd like to hear more about the Border Patrol calling the Sheriff hours earlier of an active shooting and an 'Allen' reporting he may have been shot at... hours before the fatal shooting.
Kent
Unlike most here, I know you have been down there.
I line distanced with On X hunt, I literally used to camp 1.7 miles from Kelly's house. Camped there 8 times that I remembered.
I'd like to hear more about the Border Patrol calling the Sheriff hours earlier of an active shooting and an 'Allen' reporting he may have been shot at... hours before the fatal shooting.
Kent
Unlike most here, I know you have been down there.
I line distanced with On X hunt, I literally used to camp 1.7 miles from Kelly's house. Camped there 8 times that I remembered.
I'd like to hear more about the Border Patrol calling the Sheriff hours earlier of an active shooting and an 'Allen' reporting he may have been shot at... hours before the fatal shooting.
Kent
Unlike most here, I know you have been down there.
I line distanced with On X hunt, I literally used to camp 1.7 miles from Kelly's house. Camped there 8 times that I remembered.
Well I have spent a lot of time on Texas border. Hunted a ranch north of San Ygnacio. About 15 miles north of the border. Hunted there 5 years. Spent about 50 days each hunting season there. Plenty of wet traffic. What they didn’t steal they sh T On. Hasbeen
I'd like to hear more about the Border Patrol calling the Sheriff hours earlier of an active shooting and an 'Allen' reporting he may have been shot at... hours before the fatal shooting.
Kent
Unlike most here, I know you have been down there.
I line distanced with On X hunt, I literally used to camp 1.7 miles from Kelly's house. Camped there 8 times that I remembered.
Kent
There is more to this...
Exactly where are you located. Hasbeen
Montana, now.
where before that? I only ask because you seem? to have knowledge of southwest goings on....bob
nailed it. my time in Arizona included several stints along the border south of tucson.
private and forest service lands. ranchers are in constant alert.
wake up and there are trespassers sleeping or resting in their barns, in their cars or trucks if not locked up, sleeping. staying warm.
leaving water running when the last of the line does not turn off the hose. drains ponds, tanks, and water vats..
taking advantage of food water and shelter whether locked or not.
cutting fences and gates locked or not.
leaving more litter than a rainbow hippy convention.
if you have seen a rape tree, and I have seen two, your heart goes out to the girls and women whose panties and bras decorate the tree like an over decorated christmas tree.
their tears and blood soaked into the ground.. whether seen or not.
sit on a stand or blind or shade, and you will see lines of inbound hopefuls and mules..
piles of brush piled up and do not look or tarry or get your phone out cause you are being watched...
I'd like to hear more about the Border Patrol calling the Sheriff hours earlier of an active shooting and an 'Allen' reporting he may have been shot at... hours before the fatal shooting.
Kent
Unlike most here, I know you have been down there.
I line distanced with On X hunt, I literally used to camp 1.7 miles from Kelly's house. Camped there 8 times that I remembered.
Kent
There is more to this...
Exactly where are you located. Hasbeen
Montana, now.
where before that? I only ask because you seem? to have knowledge of southwest goings on....bob
I did a bee removal on a home about 3/4 mile away about 10 months ago.
There likely is more to the story but likely not too dramatic. Likely the rancher is an idiot and made a bad choice. Not positive but likely. I bet he got fed up and just snapped.
His fate will be 100% on local politics. This occurred in Santa Cruz County which may be worse than Pima County.
I did a bee removal on a home about 3/4 mile away about 10 months ago.
There likely is more to the story but likely not too dramatic. Likely the rancher is an idiot and made a bad choice. Not positive but likely. I bet he got fed up and just snapped.
His fate will be 100% on local politics. This occurred in Santa Cruz County which may be worse than Pima County.
Sad it comes to this. It's sickening.
Aka from reports...the deceased had repeated violations.
I would have told the Sheriff to get off my property and don't come back unless you have a warrant! Did I miss it, did the rancher admit shooting the illegal?
That would probably end badly...
Can't target shoot on your own property on Arizona? Tell the cops to get a warrant. I'm thinking the rancher admitted to the shooting, he's screwed.
I saw that. Repeated border crossing deportations?
PS - I've had to call BP from illegals in my yard that refused to leave multiple times in last few years....
No way!
Not a good day when your water turns on, there's 5 dudes in your yard sitting on your doorstep, wife is working 10 foot away in the house and you get a call from your neighbor of a big group with a rifle spotted behind your house.
I saw that. Repeated border crossing deportations?
PS - I've had to call BP from illegals in my yard that refused to leave multiple times in last few years....
No way!
Not a good day when your water turns on, there's 5 dudes in your yard sitting on your doorstep, wife is working 10 foot away in the house and you get a call from your neighbor of a big group with a rifle spotted behind your house.
I saw that. Repeated border crossing deportations?
PS - I've had to call BP from illegals in my yard that refused to leave multiple times in last few years....
No way!
Not a good day when your water turns on, there's 5 dudes in your yard sitting on your doorstep, wife is working 10 foot away in the house and you get a call from your neighbor of a big group with a rifle spotted behind your house.
Sarcasm if you must or am I simply mistaken...
We have "them" in camp, 36c.
Ymmv
Oh, those are the easy ones. 36c is my backyard. Unless you on the spine of Babos. That's where the bad guys are mostly, this month...
Vermilion Mountain Ranch is a must see property. This absolutely beautiful ranch includes 169 +/- acres of native grass lands with varied terrain and vegetation. It is a very picturesque setting with mesquites, huge oak trees, a magnificent riparian area and endless long views of mountains in every direction. The ranch is very quiet, peaceful & extremely private at the end of the road bordering thousands of acres of the Coronado National Forest and the Patagonia Mountains to the east. The owners are currently running a cow/calf operation with Texas Longhorns along with numerous horses. The ranch has a beautiful, better than new, impeccably maintained 3 bedroom, 3 bathroom Santa Fe 2 home, 2 excellent wells, electric, 2 septic systems, corrals and a versatile 2,400 square foot metal barn. The ranch house has brand new elastomeric paint, roof coating and a beautiful large pergola. One of the wells produces 70 degree water and both wells produce 30 Gpm. There is a 500 gallon underground propane tank for the house and another 500 gallon tank for the generator at the barn. There are six livestock drinkers on the ranch. It has all newer perimeter fencing and pasture fence. There is a second septic system installed for an engineered Lodge site also included. The ranch is perfect for horseback riding on the land and into the adjacent Coronado National Forest and Patagonia Mountains, star gazing, bird watching, hiking and mountain biking.
House built 2009... 1,750,000.00 for sale
Not a ranch operation but private property.
Not an indictment against Kelly but the Headline of Az rancher kills Mexican is contrived for sensationalism.
I’ll hold the bulk of my thoughts and just say the rancher is not guilty of any crime and anyone that has the balls to defend themselves from this invasion should be compensated for their time and ammunition.
Rather extensive accumulation of differing views, projections and predictions on the basis of little solid factual info about the supposed crime event itself.
Rather extensive accumulation of differing views, projections and predictions on the basis of little solid factual info about the supposed crime event itself.
Facts don’t usually get in the way of an opinion here on the ‘Fire. 🤣
One story that was floating around a few years ago was that an illegal was shot by a rancher on the border, and his grieving mother came across, hired a lawyer, and now the ranch is now hers. Don't know if it's the truth or not, but it was out there. What I do know is that 3 Sheriff's along the border were backing Katie Hobbs for governor, so they are liberal, democrat scum. In Oct of 21 my bud and I were in 36B glassing acouple of days before the season opened. Cell service is spotty there at best and my bud went up a hill to make a phone call, when he came down he said that he thought he tripped a sensor that was in a bush, a few minutes later you could hear vehicles coming up the wash, and then two border patrol vehicles showed up, and my bud ask if he tripped their sensor, one of them said a sensor was tripped but it wasn't my bud that did it. I ask if it was Mexicans that did it and the reply was these days you never know. The border is a mess and FJB isn't going to do anything about it.
I saw that. Repeated border crossing deportations?
PS - I've had to call BP from illegals in my yard that refused to leave multiple times in last few years....
No way!
Not a good day when your water turns on, there's 5 dudes in your yard sitting on your doorstep, wife is working 10 foot away in the house and you get a call from your neighbor of a big group with a rifle spotted behind your house.
Sarcasm if you must or am I simply mistaken...
We have "them" in camp, 36c.
Ymmv
Oh, those are the easy ones. 36c is my backyard. Unless you on the spine of Babos. That's where the bad guys are mostly, this month...
Had to look and yep, just a couple miles from where I solo camped for two weeks after cous in the back country of 36-C. I can assure all those who have never ventured there that a couple weeks back there will open your eyes. It certainly did mine, reading about the "border" cannot prepare one for the reality of what I got to see.
To paraphrase "JAWS" we need a bigger boat... I needed more ammo, and a more appropriate rifle... My .300 WM with 3+1 seemed a bit inadequate when they came through 50+ at a time. Even less comforting when you are in "canyon of the dead guy" loosely translated of course... Rancher came back in to check some wild ass cows he ran back there, said "what the *&$# are you doing back HERE". and after dark too????
It hit home when the BP told me they only go there after dark in helicopter when I asked them to come and get some poor bastard with a knee swelled up like a football stripped of everything but his pants by his "co-travellers". BP wouldn't come get him till dawn, I didn't sleep much that night, certain he was a decoy.
Not again, not even for a 120" buck behind every saguaro...
Had to look and yep, just a couple miles from where I solo camped for two weeks after cous in the back country of 36-C. I can assure all those who have never ventured there that a couple weeks back there will open your eyes. It certainly did mine, reading about the "border" cannot prepare one for the reality of what I got to see.
To paraphrase "JAWS" we need a bigger boat... I needed more ammo, and a more appropriate rifle... My .300 WM with 3+1 seemed a bit inadequate when they came through 50+ at a time. Even less comforting when you are in "canyon of the dead guy" loosely translated of course... Rancher came back in to check some wild ass cows he ran back there, said "what the *&$# are you doing back HERE". and after dark too????
It hit home when the BP told me they only go there after dark in helicopter when I asked them to come and get some poor bastard with a knee swelled up like a football stripped of everything but his pants by his "co-travellers". BP wouldn't come get him till dawn, I didn't sleep much that night, certain he was a decoy.
Not again, not even for a 120" buck behind every saguaro...
Once had guy from Oregon tell me all about the Border issues...
Left his kid in camp first night, cause he was scared.
Had to look and yep, just a couple miles from where I solo camped for two weeks after cous in the back country of 36-C. I can assure all those who have never ventured there that a couple weeks back there will open your eyes. It certainly did mine, reading about the "border" cannot prepare one for the reality of what I got to see.
To paraphrase "JAWS" we need a bigger boat... I needed more ammo, and a more appropriate rifle... My .300 WM with 3+1 seemed a bit inadequate when they came through 50+ at a time. Even less comforting when you are in "canyon of the dead guy" loosely translated of course... Rancher came back in to check some wild ass cows he ran back there, said "what the *&$# are you doing back HERE". and after dark too????
It hit home when the BP told me they only go there after dark in helicopter when I asked them to come and get some poor bastard with a knee swelled up like a football stripped of everything but his pants by his "co-travellers". BP wouldn't come get him till dawn, I didn't sleep much that night, certain he was a decoy.
Not again, not even for a 120" buck behind every saguaro...
Once had guy from Oregon tell me all about the Border issues...
Left his kid in camp first night, cause he was scared.
Lol
Yep, until you've been there, alone, it doesn't quite have the same "feel". All my life I've read about griz stories, but until you have pissed off mama popping her jaws at you from >20 yards and you are holding a bow, with poop in the back of your drawers, it just aint quite the same, keyboard warriors excluded of course.
- - - - - What I do know is that 3 Sheriff's along the border were backing Katie Hobbs for governor, so they are liberal, democrat scum. - - - -
Interesting knowledge - I would like to know that. Which Sheriffs in which Mexican border counties were backing Katie Hobbs.? Thanks.
It was in one of those gazillion ads run before the election. Nobody I recognized. What I do remember about it, it was like most of Hobbs ads, she didn't say anything the Sheriff's did all the talking. Google search says two Chris Nanos of Pima County, and David Hathaway of Santa Cruz County. I thought I saw three.
How is a Justice of the Peace presiding over this case? Kent
I don't know Kent - will ask Maddy. I have seen cases above the traffic level first noted before a JP in less populated areas of some AZ counties and were probably moved into the DA/county judge sphere later/eventually. Santa Cruz is a very small county compared to the others, and their county judge/judges can't be located very far distant. This event was probably closer to Patagonia or one of the other little places east of Nogales and maybe the Sheriff was looking for the closest judge - but seems odd that the case would have stayed there, especially with the setting of $1 mil bail. ??? Local political maneuvering.??? Hard to tell right now.
How is a Justice of the Peace presiding over this case?
Kent
It’s just a first appearance. He informs the defendant of the possible charges, and sets the initial bond. This appearance generally must occur within 24 to 48 hours of arrest depending upon the state.
From here it will proceed in front of a district or circuit judge, or whatever Arizona calls the equivalent. He’ll get plenty of opportunities to have his bond lowered and might not even be charged with murder in the end. The charging decision will be up to a DA.
How is a Justice of the Peace presiding over this case?
Kent
It’s just a first appearance. He informs the defendant of the possible charges, and sets the initial bond. This appearance generally must occur within 24 to 48 hours of arrest depending upon the state.
From here it will proceed in front of a district or circuit judge, or whatever Arizona calls the equivalent. He’ll get plenty of opportunities to have his bond lowered and might not even be charged with murder in the end. The charging decision will be up to a DA.
Yes, but it's been 10 days and a national story, and now it's two more weeks... don't make sense on such a high profile case.
How is a Justice of the Peace presiding over this case?
Kent
It’s just a first appearance. He informs the defendant of the possible charges, and sets the initial bond. This appearance generally must occur within 24 to 48 hours of arrest depending upon the state.
From here it will proceed in front of a district or circuit judge, or whatever Arizona calls the equivalent. He’ll get plenty of opportunities to have his bond lowered and might not even be charged with murder in the end. The charging decision will be up to a DA.
Yes, but it's been 10 days and a national story, and now it's two more weeks... don't make sense on such a high profile case.
Kent
Not unusual at all. He was supposed to go to court today. It would have been his first appearance in front of an actual judge most likely. If charges have actually been filed, it was an arraignment. But I would be surprised, unless things are pretty clear cut if charges have been filed yet or if a decision has been made on exactly what he will be charged with in the end. His attorney could have also requested lower home today.
PHOENIX (AP) — An Arizona judge declared a mistrial Monday in the case of a rancher accused of fatally shooting a Mexican man on his property near the U.S.-Mexico border.
The decision came after jurors failed to reach a unanimous decision after more than two full days of deliberation in trial of George Alan Kelly, 75, who was charged with second-degree murder in the Jan. 30, 2023, shooting of Gabriel Cuen-Buitimea.
“Based upon the jury’s inability to reach a verdict on any count,” Superior Court Judge Thomas Fink said, “This case is in mistrial.”
The Santa Cruz County Attorney’s Office can still decide whether to retry Kelly for any charge, or drop the case all together.
A status hearing was scheduled for next Monday afternoon, when prosecutors could inform the judge if they plan to refile the case. Prosecutors did not immediately respond to emailed requests for additional comment.
Kelly was charged with second-degree murder in killing of Cuen-Buitimea, 48, who lived just south of the border in Nogales, Mexico.
Prosecutors said Kelly recklessly fired nine shots from an AK-47 rifle toward a group of men, including Cuen-Buitimea, about 100 yards (90 meters) away on his cattle ranch. Kelly has said he fired warning shots in the air, but he didn’t shoot directly at anyone.
Court officials took jurors to Kelly’s ranch as well as a section of the border. Fink denied news media requests to tag along.
After Monday’s ruling, Consul General Marcos Moreno Baez of the Mexican consulate in Nogales, Arizona, said he would wait with Cuen-Buitimea’s two adult daughters on Monday evening to meet with prosecutors from Santa Cruz County Attorney’s Office to learn about the implications of a mistrial.
“Mexico will continue to follow the case and continue to accompany the family, which wants justice.” said Moreno. “We hope for a very fair outcome.”
Kelly’s defense attorney Brenna Larkin did not immediately respond to an emailed request for comment after the ruling was issued. Larkin had asked Fink to have jurors keep deliberating another day.
Kelly had earlier rejected an agreement with prosecutors that would have reduced the charge to one count of negligent homicide if he pleaded guilty.
Kelly was also charged with aggravated assault that day against another person in the group of about eight people, including a man from Honduras who was living in Mexico and who testified during the trial that he had gone into the U.S. that day seeking work.
The other migrants weren’t injured and they all made it back to Mexico.
Cuen-Buitimea lived just south of the border in Nogales, Mexico. He had previously entered the U.S. illegally several times and was deported, most recently in 2016, court records show.
The nearly monthlong trial coincided with a presidential election year that has drawn widespread interest in border security.
Fink had told jurors that if they could not reach a verdict on the second-degree murder charge, they could try for a unanimous decision on a lesser charge of reckless manslaughter or negligent homicide. A second-degree murder conviction would have brought a minimum prison sentence of 10 years.
The jury got the case Thursday afternoon, deliberated briefly that day and then all of Friday and Monday.
I can't believe the DA pursued this anyway with no evidence tying Kelly to to the killing. No accurate time of death, no bullet to tie to Kelly's rifle, and the deceased was "a frequent visitor to the US". Frequent as in 'coyote'? Frequent as in 'mule'? Seven not guilty's, and one guilty. DA needs to build his career on a case with some actual forensic evidence.
With 7-1 in his favor, I wonder if he'll be retried. That might be a political decision. If he just keeps his mouth shut and goes on with his life, he might be OK. Unless something changes, it seems that a future conviction is not likely.
If the DA has any sense at all he'll let it go. This never should've come to this. The DA should've no billed him to start with. They don't even know that the man even actually shot the person in the first place. He might've admitted to firing a shot but that doesn't mean he was actually shooting at that particular person. This has been another leftist farce from the beginning.
This is local - next (small) county smack on the border with Mex. Lots of nutty local political pressure.
General local consensus - rancher should never have been charged/tried. Evidence is poor to none. Politically sensitive prosecutor may not be principled/sensible/smart enough to drop it before he does stupid again.
Santa Cruz County is a sanctuary county. They may not have declared it officially but thats how it is. No surprise the SO and county attorney are pursuing this relentlessly. They will bankrupt this guy, destroy his life and make an example of him before they let it go.
Presumably, the man knows enough to keep his mouth shut and not discuss the case with anyone other than his lawyer or maybe his wife. He doesn't need to be out making statements or online posts that could be used as evidence in a new trial.
"Kelly’s defense attorney Brenna Larkin did not immediately respond to an emailed request for comment after the ruling was issued. Larkin had asked Fink to have jurors keep deliberating another day."
If it'd been 7-1 guilty, it damn sure woulda gone farther with the jury.
One is always better off if you employ all 3 “Ses” of the 3 “S” rule. Shoot Shovel and Shut the hell up! Hopefully this fellow will be exonerated, and his neighbors buy him a box of shells. But under the current management system, illegal Mexicans-are more highly valued than American citizens. Reon
Santa Cruz County is a sanctuary county. They may not have declared it officially but thats how it is. No surprise the SO and county attorney are pursuing this relentlessly. They will bankrupt this guy, destroy his life and make an example of him before they let it go.
Presumably, the man knows enough to keep his mouth shut and not discuss the case with anyone other than his lawyer or maybe his wife. He doesn't need to be out making statements or online posts that could be used as evidence in a new trial.
Any bets if Team Biden now swoops in and charges George Kelly with some Federal crime? Send in the "Pull Rope" investigation Team?
Shut up was the main rule he violated. If he had made no reports or statements he would have never been charged.
Believe me, I know. You do not need to say anything. If they start threatening, you need to very clearly and politely say “I am not going to say anything until I have the advice of my attorney “. Then you say “goodbye “
I'd like to hear more about the Border Patrol calling the Sheriff hours earlier of an active shooting and an 'Allen' reporting he may have been shot at... hours before the fatal shooting.
Kent
Unlike most here, I know you have been down there.
As have MANY (some of whom you have disparaged in this thread), you know nothing about - much like the border debacle.
BTW, where are you from - to have such intimate knowledge of the border, and it's problems? It ain't like it was back in the '60's and '70's, by a LONG shot!
Now the Mexican consulate is urging the county attorney to refile charges to appease the dead man’s family. This whole thing is political. They have a dead illegal so someone has to pay. The illegal shouldn’t have been there in the first place. Our government shouldn’t be creating an atmosphere that encourages them to come here.
Every gun owner should have that memorized, because that is about the only thing you need to say to the cops if you shoot someone. After that shut up until you get a good lawyer.
I think in this day and age, the Fifth Amendment is best. Say absolutely nothing until you have counsel present.
Every gun owner should have that memorized, because that is about the only thing you need to say to the cops if you shoot someone. After that shut up until you get a good lawyer.
I think in this day and age, the Fifth Amendment is best. Say absolutely nothing until you have counsel present.
Good advice. What if it turns out the guy was mute? Or knew no English? Or was witnessed to be silent and still? Saying he threatened you might be a provable lie. Then you have lost credibility. Saying you were in fear for your life is probably ok. Still probably good to say you’d like your attorney present before making a statement. The words you choose may determine the entire outcome.
I think in this day and age, the Fifth Amendment is best. Say absolutely nothing until you have counsel present.
This is the way to handle it. Don't lie, tell your wife to stay quiet. Plead the 5th. Don't present any weapons for them to inspect. Your lawyer can tell them what needs to be told. If you make statements the police may embellish the report. There is NOTHING to be gained by talking and everything to lose.
Hastings, Absolutely correct. There is nothing that you can say on the scene to LE to stop the legal process that is required to take place. It it best to leave the talking to a lawyer. Unfortunate as that may be, it is the best way to handle it in today's world.
“Hello border patrol? Yeah, ok, there’s a dead guy on my property. What’s that? Yeah, a dead guy. Huh? No, that’s all I know. Nope. That’s it. Bunch of illegals came through my property and I was out checking for damage. He dedt. Nope, that’s it. “
It was in one of those gazillion ads run before the election. Nobody I recognized. What I do remember about it, it was like most of Hobbs ads, she didn't say anything the Sheriff's did all the talking. Google search says two Chris Nanos of Pima County, and David Hathaway of Santa Cruz County. I thought I saw three.
There are four counties along the Mexican border, Cochise, Santa Cruz, Pima and Yuma. I would not be surprised to learn the third sheriff was Mark Dannels from Cochise County. I have zero confidence he will support our constitutional rights when the time comes. Larry Devers and Gabrielle Gifford were very outspoken about immigration policies and constitutional rights. Larry is dead and Gabrielle is just a shell.
The Barnett family has a ranch along the border and several years ago they detained some illegals at gunpoint until the border patrol arrived. Lawsuits were filed and the illegals got a huge monetary settlement. That might be the incident mentioned earlier in this discussion.
“Hello border patrol? Yeah, ok, there’s a dead guy on my property. What’s that? Yeah, a dead guy. Huh? No, that’s all I know. Nope. That’s it. Bunch of illegals came through my property and I was out checking for damage. He dedt. Nope, that’s it. “
^^^^THIS!!!^^^^
If he was going to call the USBP, that should have been his only statement. Period.
Myself, I’d have let the coyotes, buzzards, and feral hogs take care of it. A body wouldn’t last more than a few weeks around here. Buzzards gotta eat too. 😜
[quote=shootem]“Hello border patrol? Yeah, ok, there’s a dead guy on my property. What’s that? Yeah, a dead guy. Huh? No, that’s all I know. Nope. That’s it. Bunch of illegals came through my property and I was out checking for damage. He dedt. Nope, that’s it. “
Since this happened I have followed it somewhat because I can envision myself in that same situation and try to think how I would handle it. Not sure about firing warning shots. I think if I did I would fire into the ground. On the other hand I think warning shots would alert the illegals and put them on defense which might not be in my favor. I’m thinking the best thing to do is observe from a concealed position, armed of course, and not do anything unless absolutely necessary. If possible just let them pass through and move on.
If you have to take action I think it best the authorities only hear one side of the story. As far as contacting the authorities, I’m not sure that is a good idea. But if you did the above statement would suffice.
"Officer, I was in fear for my life. I cannot say anything more without my attorney being present."
L.W.
I usually agree with most everything you say, LW, but not in this case. The less said the better.
Libertards in AZ are using this case to illegally prosecute a man that was defended his property from Illegal Trespassers. More Leftist Political Bullschitt. Nothing more. Rancher should have been no billed. Period. Unfortunately, being honest and volunteering info he shouldn’t of got him prosecuted. 🤪
He should have never even offered up the info that he fired “warning shots”.
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