For whatever reason, I can’t post the video direct. (Computers seem to hate me.)
From my reading of Custer and the Battle of the LBH, I have come to admire the General.
Unfairly, Custer gets blamed for everything, he hated Indians, he was a glory hound who cared nothing for his men, and so forth.
Growing up in the ‘70s, these were my impressions of Custer.
But as with many folks in history, by reading a little, your first impressions are often shattered as you learn more.
Captain Thomas Weir was a friend of Custer, possibly more than that with Libbie.
I’m not gonna comment on that.
But Captain Weir died clearly of what we now know as PTSD shortly after the battle.
One has to wonder what he’d have said to Libbie?
Captain Weir part 1
This lady has done some great stuff on Custer and the LBH. The links to parts 2 and 3 should be obvious.
One other thing. There are several other “Custerphiles” on this board.
It’s these folks who this is aimed at.
If you’re gonna reply that “Custer was an egotistical azzhole” save yourself the trouble.
I put this out purely for the discussion it will generate.
Reon

This should be a riveting discussion……given the boundaries! 😁 memtb

I will put it this way then.
My people rubbed Custer out. Drove him to ground and killed him.
I certainly have no remorse. It was war.

Osky

I respect your ancestry.
Lakota or Cheyenne, they were protecting their homes and families against an armed enemy who had invaded their home land.
Just as any of us would do today.
But through my reading, I have found Captain Weir to be quite an interesting fellow.
I’m sure not trying to open a big can of worms, or start another whizzing contest.
As I said, there are others on this forum that have studied Custer and the LBH.
With all the primary participants deceased, it becomes an interesting subject, and this thread is aimed towards them.
Reon

Custer fafo

Don't forget that some of those same Indians fought a larger force under General Crook just a few days earlier, causing the Army to vacate the field and return to quarters for several weeks. Custer was unaware of this. Crooks force was supposed to be one of the three prongs of that campaign.

Understood 7… from that perspective, the life of Custer and many of those around him all the way back east to Washington was quite the drama show.

Osky

While I am responding to the issue of Captain Weir, here is some interesting accounts to look at vs what Captain Benteen reported...

Yeah, but Crook’s defeat left plenty of survivors.
The battle on Last Stand Hill, none of the cavalry, and understandably, the Indian warriors were reluctant to speak openly.
The closest thing we have to a witness, was Tom Weir, who against orders, attempted to go to the fight.
I just thought this would make an interesting topic, considering the members, would spark a discussion.
Lord knows, by starting things like this, I always learn something.
If nothing else, consider it a quest for knowledge 😀
Reon

As far as the native’s recollections I’m sure there is some truth in it as well as some don’t bite the hand that feeds you as well.
All the natives listed are Sioux and well you know how much you can trust those sun dancing fools to be honest.

Kidding of course.

Osky

This picture is of myself and one of the best known Custer Battlefield interpreters, Steve Adelson. He is easy to find and has a vast understanding and knowledge of the whole battlefield and the individuals and each of their participation in that battle.

This picture is taken atop Weir point as Steve explained the advance of Captain Weir and yes, even Reno and Benteen. From this point, Weir could see to the battle where Custer was engaged and could hear firing from their rifles. They met such heavy resistance, they had to head back to safety at Reno/Benteen defensive position to keep from being over run. A defensive skirmish line was formed on the Southeast base of Weir point to facilitate the retreat back to Reno/Benteen battle site.








As was mentioned by 7mm, Weir was a staunch Custer supporter and new of the orders to bring packs and ammunition to aid Custer's advance, as they didn't carry enough ammunition on each mounted cavalry soldier to sustain that much fighting with the Indians.

It should also be noted that Benteen had been slow in his response to bring that support, as Boston Custer was with Captain McDougall who was in charge of Company B with the pack train, and Boston continued on to catch up with his two brothers before the massacre at last stand hill. This is an indication that Benteen certainly could have come in support of Custer, but didn't.

Reno had already abandoned his fight on the river and was sent across the Little Bighorn River to try and stay alive, with no thought of an organized retreat, to which it was considered a route. This is the crossing, I was there on the anniversary of the battle in June and stood at that exact spot with the river running high and bank full, further causing more chaos as they tried to run up the hill to safety...

One thing for certain about Custer-he was a loser.....and spectacularly so.

Custer should’ve had his ass stomped in the mud July 3 1863

You’re one of the primary candidates I was looking for!😀
In all my reading, I have never read a positive word of Custer from Benteen.
The guide at LBH said that “Benteen hated Custer, and Reno hated both of them.”
The Seventh was divided into factions, and this I believe brought about the massacre of five companies, and the siege against the others.
I believe that had Benteen acted quickly upon the orders, he may have been able to save at least some of Custer’s battalion.
Benteen had a hard on for Custer, and he took it to the grave.
Reon

I probably shouldn’t be opining because I’ve not studied the battle as hard as others but it seems to me although Custer might’ve committed a fatal sin for splitting his command, Reno and particularly Bentsen could’ve done far more to aide him.

What do you base this conclusion on?

Where was Custer April 9, 1865?

Tell me how often he lost during the Civil War?

He still lost after the fact

Real calvery men fought for the south

😂

Understood, but so what? Would that in any way exonerate any of Custers actions his final two days? He turned down heavy support in the form of Gatling guns good move, bad move, more importantly why? The last 36 hours he pushed mercilessly in what the Indians to a man said was one of if not the hottest period they could remember. Why?

Most importantly as supreme command he did not listen to his scouts as to the number of enemy combatants nor did he pause long enough to send out any other means of intelligence gathering to get a more positive estimation on the number of enemy.
In the face of overwhelming forces the guy divided his command not once, not twice, but into fourths when you factor in the supply train.
It doesn’t matter who hated who, what happened on any other date, what his war record was, nothing matters but a series of very bad, devastating decisions that were made by one person those last two days and Custer alone made those decisions. That’s the facts.
We can argue, we can listen to interpreters, scholars, Indians, whoever but the causes to those poor decisions at this point are anyone’s guess.

Osky

Sorry 7… if that response wandered from the direction you were trying to go.

Osky

With all due respect, (I know you have spent a helluva lotta time there).
Boston Custer, I believe the General’s nephew, had time to pass Benteen’s command on his way to the pack train for a fresh mount.
He made it back in time to die with George and Tom on Last Stand Hill.
This was about the same time Benteen received the orders from Custer.
“Big village, come quick, bring packs”
I give Colonel Benteen a helluva lotta credit for what he did on Reno hill, he held that perimeter together. Reno was in no shape to do it.
But I still believe that he had time to reach, possibly save Custer.
He had no desire to help Custer. He thought Custer had sent him on a goose chase to keep him outta the fight
My take is that Reno choked on his charge, and lost his head completely after Bloody Knife’s brains splashed his face.
When Benteen got to Reno Hill he couldn’t give a schit about Custer.
Weir asked Reno, in Benteen’s presence for permission to go to Custer’s aid.
With no answer, Weir went on his own. His company, and eventually the rest of the regiment, followed. (Probably to save face).

Do you know where he was and what he did?

Yes

If Custer had taken Gatling Guns, he would have survived. It would have taken him two more days to get there, dragging Gatling guns with condemned cavalry mounts. Rough country is not easily navigable with such equipment…

What was it and where was he?

I don't know.

Didn’t know that.


Go look at who Custer fought, and whipped, at Gettysburg. And he did it on a horse. Supposedly, it was Lee’s best cavalry man.

July 1-3 1863?

Here we go😂😂

What ya wanna know

Well my ancestors were Confederates, so fugk Custer.

Curley, one of Custer's Crow scouts was a surviving witness and gave his account of what he saw. He is buried there in the National Cemetery.

Of course Crook's force mostly survived that's how they were able to return to the fort.

Appomattox, Custer captured Lees artillery and convinced Lee to meet Grant at the courthouse and meet the terms of surrender and end the Civil war. General Phil Sheridan purchased the table the treaty was signed on and presented it to Libby Custer…


In April 1865, the Rebels had surrendered to the Yankees, thus ending the Civil War. George Custer arrived on the other side of the war a hero. His actions at the Battle of the 1st Bull Run and subsequent heroic efforts helped bring about victory for the North. Shortly after the official signing of the South’s declaration of surrender Major General Phil Sheridan sent Elizabeth Custer a gift along with a note of explanation. It read, “My dear Madam – I respectfully present to you the small writing table on which the conditions for the surrender of the Confederate Army of Northern Virginia were written by Lt. General Grant – and permit me to say, Madam, that there is scarecely an individual in our service who has contributed more to bring this about than your gallant husband.”

Capt Benteen's hatred of Custer took a giant leap when Custer abandoned Major Elliot and his group at the Washita. Later in the spring, they found all their remains, after they had been killed by the Cheyennes.

Elliott left with 16 men without orders to attack a separate band of Cheyenne. When the Washita battle was complete another band of Cheyenne from farther down the river was observed attacking Custer’s battalion. Late in the day and vulnerable to a separate attack, Custer feigned an attack to set the attacking Indians back enough to allow his escape.

Major Elliott, leaving without orders, sealed his own fate as Custer protected his remaining battalion as they retreated, leaving Elliott for the sake of the protection of his immediate command. Benteen, a friend of Elliott, never forgave Custer…

Ok🥴

^^this

Iow, you are stating Custer was instrumental in maintaining the union, and in retrospect (today), that was a good thing?

Where wuz Custer in 1864 at chambersburg pa?

Wars are won and lost by soldiers, politicians decide if it was good or bad…

That is true and Sheridan gave him credit for saving the day. If JEB Stuart had hit the Yankees line simultaneous with Pickett's charge things might have gone a lot different.

Bad timing

Wonder how old George was viewed in the family. Two brothers, several cousins and brother-in-law also died in that campaign.

It seems that not knowing the lay of the land was a very big factor in the loss at LBH.

Nope, Custer sent him packing with a much lesser amount of Michigan Wolverines…

What happened to the failed Calvary charge on the opposite flank around the same time!!

#littleknownfacts
#yankymassacre

Well mine were also, but we lost. There are consequences to that.

As far as Weir's sashay toward the Indian lines I would be pretty sure the Custer fight was over when they mustered a large force to chase him back to his outfit.

As to how long the Custer fight took did someone forget the Indian who claimed it took about as long as it took a hungry Indian to eat a meal (maybe 20 to 30 minutes)?

I'll never believe Benteen was a coward and I believe he acted properly with the limited information he had. He was instructed belatedly to "come on" and bring packs (ammo) which he did. He found troops and joined them under extremely difficult conditions and had to organize a very disorganized situation. He successfully set up a defensive position and held off a much numerically superior attacking force.

Weir was seemingly kind of a nut case and infatuated with Mrs. Custer not to mention infatuated with whiskey.

You can be sure the Indians that surrendered a year or more after LBH weren't going to badmouth the soldiers they massacred. After all at that time they were virtual prisoners of war.

Saved himself for another meeting at Yellow Tavern. What happened to Stuart there. You do remember Custer sent him packing at Gettysburg. It wasn’t about what could happen…

🤣How many times was Custer sent packing buy fits lee after that?

earlybrd: Our cause was just and separating from the United States was legal. We should have taken our case to a sympathetic U.S. Supreme Court. Chief Justice Roger Taney was on our side. But we didn't. And we used the wrong tactics in going head up against a powerful enemy. George Washington's tactics of inflicting as much damage as possible and then retreating while wearing down the enemy's will to continue might have served better. The North Vietnamese used that same tactic and it worked. There was a powerful minority in the northern U.S. that wanted to cut the south loose.

But anyway what's done is done and we lost in a fair fight. The north used its industrial capacity, its population, and what became a pretty darn good army to whip us. My paternal great grandfather was captured at Vicksburg, paroled, and rejoined the CSA cavalry. Both sides of my ancestry fought for the Confederacy and we suffered terribly in reconstruction but it was war and we lost.

All that said, Custer was a bold and reckless man and those attributes served him well until one day his luck ran out. Captain Benteen proved himself a good soldier with unquestioned courage in battle and was basically railroaded over insulting the Mormons at Fort Duchesne several years after LBH. In retirement he was promoted to Brigadier General for gallantry at LBH and the Yellowstone Expedition.

As to the subject of this thread Captain Thomas Weir, I believe he proved himself mentally ill before LBH and basically he shortly afterward committed suicide by alcohol and who knows what else he mixed with it.

You guys sound like a bunch of Indians.....

I found this interesting.

I don’t know about anyone else…

Hahaha!

Damn Yankee....

.

That's Eskimo speak....

He rather brashly rode up to Confederate lines under a white flag and rather arrogantly and brashly demanded the surrender of the entire Confederate Army of Northern Virginia near Appomattox, Virginia. Confederate Lt. General James Longstreet, not being favorably impressed, basicaly told him to "git". Custer, being rebuffed and robbed of his perceived moment of glory, decided this was sound advice, promptly wheeled his horse, and quickly rode away. Later that day, General Lee did meet with General Grant at the McLean house and agreed on surrender terms. Custer was present at that meeting along with many other Federal officers, but played no part in the proceedings nor the arrangements. I strongly suspect he was upset that he was not able to claim the glory of the day.

I will now mention the one decent thing that I know of that Custer did. There may have been others, I don't know. At the end of the war, Federal troops were sent to occupy Texas for multiple reasons. One was to restore Federal control, and to guard against former Confederates, both organized and not, from joining with French colonial troops then fighting for control of Mexico. Additionally, and many are not aware of this, the last Confederate military department to surrender was the Trans-Mississippi Department which was officially surrendered by General Edmund Kirby-Smith, ratified at Galveston, Texas 02 June 1865. Upon the capitulation of Lee's army in Virginia, followed a few short weeks later by Gen. Joseph Johnston's army in North Carolina, President Davis was attempting to make his way to Texas where Gen. Kirby-Smith had, at least on the rolls, a substantial number of troops under arms. President Davis had sent instructions for the troops to be gathered near Hempstead, which is west-northwest of Houston, between Houston and Austin. Here, he planned to make a show of arms and hoped to negotiate favorable surrender terms with the U.S. government. Obviously, things did not work out that way and most remaining troops across the Confederacy began to either surrender or simply disband.

Located near Hempstead is Liendo Plantation, then owned by the Groce family. Custer, was a part of the occupation troops which took over the family home as his headquarters with his troops camped on the grounds. Custer allowed the Groce family to remain in other secondary rooms and outbuildings. While there, Custer's wife, Libby, became very ill and the Groce family took great care of her, nursing her back to health. In time, Custer had orders to move his command elsewhere and to burn the home and all property buildings and everything else in the area. While Custer was diligent in executing his orders of needless destruction, even though the war had been over for several months by then, he spared Liendo because of the kindness the Groce family showed his wife. I am not claiming this act of decency was indicative of his character either way, but it is a factual account of this particular incident.

In 1864, Jubal Early burned Chambersburg PA.
WTF does Custer’s whereabouts have to do with that? Why bring it up?
You southern fools can’t see past a war that’s been over for over a century and a half!
If you shut up long enough about the Civil War, you might just learn something about the war on the plains 10 years later!
No. My ancestors fought for the confederacy. That makes me extra freaking special!
Reon

I forgot about Custer riding up to Pete and demanding his surrender!
That I surely can’t justify, won’t try to!
I believe that while Grant and Lee were working out the surrender, Custer was out in the McLean yard wrestling with his old friend Tom Rosser, who was on Lee’s staff.
Custer never got past the schoolboy stage when it came to old friends.
A little thing like a war was easily set aside when classmates from West Point were around!
I believe Custer crossed the lines to serve as Rosser’s Best Man at his wedding.
Reon

Journalistic license? Where is the detail of this event that describes it so accurately?

Did Sitting Bull and Crow King in reporting that the battle lasted three or four hours have a sense of how long an hour was? They didn’t grow up measuring their days by a clock. I’m thinking too, even among people who did grow up under “Captain Clock” ( as the movie Black Robe refers to 🙂), estimates of time during stressful events can vary widely.

Somewhere there’s an account where an Indian woman present at the LBH refers to the time it took the sun’s shadow to travel the width of a tipi pole, I’ll post it if/when I find it again. Whatever the relevance to the battle it’s an interesting way to refer to the passage of time.

Great post, possibly because it concurs with my own opinion of Custer.

I wouldn't have liked the guy, but congeniality isn’t often a necessary quality when it comes to winning.

In judging his performance at the LBH, one also has to ask, could he have had any reasonable expectation of there being that many Indians present in that camp?

The problem before had always been catching up to Indians who didn’t want to be caught. Surprise was essential, hence his haste.

Good point. (Who knows, they might of had a some sort of clock, through trading or spoils)



What’s amazing to me is the vast distances the Troops traveled. Then logistics, terrain, weather…

"The Seventh was divided into factions, and this I believe brought about the massacre of five companies, and the siege against the others.
I believe that had Benteen acted quickly upon the orders, he may have been able to save at least some of Custer’s battalion.
Benteen had a hard on for Custer, and he took it to the grave."

That sums it up, 7mm.

Wasn’t there a lone survivor from the LBH battle?

There were over 300 U.S. Army survivors in the 7 companies commanded by Major Reno but in actuality commanded by Capt. Benteen. They set up a defensive position and held it until the Indians abandoned the battlefield and headed for the hills.

There is reason to believe a soldier named Frank Finkel or Finkle with General Custer at last stand hill survived when his horse bolted and took off with him. He tells a fairly credible story and surfaced many years later. I think he died around 1930 in Washington state.

Reno didn't have command of 7 companies when he went dow on the Little Bighorn. He had 3 companies, Benteen had 3 companies with him and 1 company was left with the pack train. Custer had 5 companies with him. At the Reno/Benteen site, there would have been 7 companies combined at that point. Frank Finkle has been debunked. He and many others claimed escaping, but there is no proof.

In our research and discovery of previously unknown circumstances, we did find an account of a local kid that grew up on Reno Creek in the 1930's and claimed he had found the remains of 2 soldiers in a rock crevice 7 miles east of the battlefield. Our research is still incomplete, but we have discovered an eyewitness account from Custer's scouts that actually saw 2 Soldiers back near the Lone Teepee site and surrounded by 5 Sioux warriors. It is in the book by Walter Mason Camp "Custer 1876" This isn't rumor as so many stories are and many show up in discussions like this.

We have found indications of a possible skirmish 6 1/2 miles east of the battlefield that will support this as a real incident. Where and what we have done is well recorded and the hoops you have to jump through is more than a single person can take on. There is more information we have that doesn't permit recalling much of it here as there is so much and the people and technical equipment we have used there is beyond even what they used in the battlefield archaeology in the 1980's.

Outside resources have been studied extensively and most is 3rd, 4th and even 50th repeat of the same material with little real historical connection. Custer may be the most written about person in American History nest to Lincoln and finding real documented accounts are scarce. We have been able to weed them out, as we have been pursuing this for more than 40 years.

Here is the account by the Indian scout in "Custer 1876" by Walter Mason Camp. He interviewed every survivor of the battle that he could locate, both Indians and soldiers to find out the most he could on the battle. This supports our research into the possibility of the 2 soldiers seen in the rock crevice in the 1930's. My guess is this is the first time anyone here has even heard of such a finding...

Not arguing about it...just curious.


When you say Finkle was debunked, what do you mean?


As far as other claiming to have escaped....would there not have been records of the soldiers being in each company?

Finkle was not a survivor, he tried to claim he was someone similarly registered in the 7th Cavalry. Records in those days were not totally reliable, as many of the soldiers during the Indian wars were escaping nefarious lifestyles and other bad backgrounds. When you have hundreds of people killed on the frontier, evidently you don’t take roll and record the survivors and subtract the missing…

I read Custer sent a scout back and he was the only survivor

There is an interesting marker on the Rosebud Creek road maybe 10 miles south of the 94 for a body found there. This is not the road down to Colstrip but east of there, it’ll take you down to Ashland.
I wish I’d taken a picture of it but it implies it was a soldiers remains found on the prairie there. I believe it was found long enough after the battle that uniform or other identifications were gone.

Could it have been a combatant of the fight, maybe a messenger sent back before the fight? How would one know. As Shrap illustrates there could have been others but how would one establish if they were actually with Custers detachment or part of the others? Great puzzle for sure.
It seems very plausible that given the number of Custers overall force, when crap hit the fan some may have paniced and headed for the hills so to speak.

Being a conquered people and totally at the mercy of the victors within a year of this battle I think the natives were very guarded in answering any questions or making comments of that final battle. Sad that it was that way but nobody gave two shakes about posterity at that point, particularly the Indians.

Osky

I didn't know the records were so spotty.


Makes sense though. No background checks.

The Nathan Short marker?

Yes sir, I knew there weren't 7 companies until Reno, Benteen, and the pack train came in and combined, at which time from all accounts Capt. Benteen was in charge of organizing the defense even though Reno was the ranking officer present and nominally in command.

As to Finkle, Would it maybe be better to classify his account as unconfirmed rather than debunked? Records are pretty darn iffy for some of the troops and some of the immigrants used Americanized names.

I've been to the field 4 or 5 times.

I read somewhere that if Custer had actually had all the folks who claimed to be “lone survivors” , he’d have outnumbered the Indians!😀
IIRC from “40 Miles A Day On Beans And Hay”, company first sergeants kept roles of unit personnel. Since all the first sergeants of Custer’s battalion were killed, the records were lost too.
Reon

Years ago I read an article about Custer done by a research person pertaining to Custer's psyche. It was discovered that a short while before the battle that the Department of the Army had authorized Custer to equip his men with repeating type lever action rifles but he was such a sticker for old army protocol that he decided to stay with the 1873 Springfield in 45/70 caliber. Research showed that some of the rifles recovered were found with live ammo shoved partly into the chamber but could not be fully chambered because of black powder fouling!

Did Custer shoot hisself or did the injuns kill him??

Q got him with a space laser refracted off a chemtrail.

Ten minute video about possible survivors of Custer’s battalion.
Reon

That’s the one.

Osky

Was this battle a particularly important one?


What would have been different had it not occurred?

Somewhere I read that a soldier escaped on horseback but, as the Indians were pursuing him, he blew his brains out with his handgun. Had he not done this, he would have escaped, was the insinuation.

Short answers no and nothing.

With the bison being eradicated the natives in any number were already being forced onto reservations. Many of the native trails leading to the Little Bighorn battlefield were made by natives who yearly came off the reservations to stay out and about for the summer months.
They would return in the fall to the reservation due to lack of food.
The number of “wild” Indians had dwindled drastically and were at numbers able to be harassing, but not a battle force.
There was a noted mix of natives at the Little Bighorn, sans the Crows who were on the white side for the most part. This all took place on Crow land and Crow were enemies of Sioux and Cheyenne considering them trespassers. The Crow I think believed they were fighting to get all their land back when in reality they would end up with no more than what the whites gave them as a reservation. Originally, before other tribes were forced west the Crow considered most of Wyoming, souther Montana, and more to be their lands.

Osky

This was not a battle for the sake of fighting Indians, it was in response to making the Indians return to their respective reservations. Remember, this isn’t about abuse or persecution of the noble natives, it was about Indian relations with the conflicts of westward migration.

Indians were told to get back on their reservations by January 31, 1876 or they would be considered hostile. This battle was a result of the lack of cooperation of the Indians to that edict. Remember again, this is not about right or wrong, this is about dealing with the lives and perception of how this country was to be settled, not how to be politically correct in civilized management…

It certainly seems to have put the big majority of the country in the mood to put an end to the Indian menace at a time when parts of the eastern states had folks seriously leaning toward sympathy with the Indian as the "noble savage".

The entire west would resemble Pine Ridge Agency had the Indian been left to pillage. By the 1800s they had horses, rifles, and whiskey and as Faulkner described the yankees and carpetbaggers a ''fierce will for rapine and pillage''.

They were not going to submit to civil government and have not even now.

For the Crow Scouts it was likely about opposing a lethal threat (Lakota, Cheyenne) to their people suddenly thrust into the heart of their home range.

One thing that occurs to me is the bewildering speed of change experienced by the Indians. Just eight years previously Red Cloud’s War had stalled White incursions. Now suddenly they were barred from whole geographic areas they had been accustomed to roam well within living memory and if they did go there subject to relentless pursuit by overwhelming force.

I forget who put it Whites like rising flood waters.

Settlement was an exponential process, faster and faster all the time.

And roving bands of well armed and highly mobile killers could not be tolerated.

Got some injun blood in me kinda fuqkd up the way they was treated

Few people are aware of what really happened verses revisionist history. Everone gets upset with the breaking of the Fort Laramie treaty of 1868 and opening the Black Hills to gold exploration and taking it away from the Sioux, who had lived there and were now forced out. No one seems to recognize that the Crow were there before the Sioux, who got uprooted from the midwest, and came to the Black Hills and evicted the Crow.

So now the US does the same to the Sioux and it becomes a scoundrelous act by an oppressive greedy government. At that time in history and in light of what the United States was involved with in western expansion, it was not considered such a grievious act.

To think that a culture of continuous advancements in technology and growth oriented individuals, would co-exist with an indigenous people stuck in the stone age, is not realistic in concept or action...

By my crude calculations, about one third of the Army’s battle deaths in the 30 years or so of the “Indian Wars” occurred in this one battle.

Tag

Then there is General Crook, who was supposed to be another attachment of the Bighorn campaign, ran into Crazy Horse down on the Rosebud and in that engagement, shot 25,000 rounds of ammunition and hit about 12 Indians. Feeling tired and out of ammo, Crook decided to go back to Fort Fetterman, lick his wounds and go fishing. No one has ever considered his malfeasence in this particular lack of engagement...

Oh wow

From looking at the battlefield, Custer ended up on a bare ridge. When the Indians managed to ride around and attack from all sides, his position was indefensible. If Benteen had managed to reach Custer with his companies and the packs his men probably would have been killed also.

As it was, when Benteen encountered Reno’s retreating troops in a more defensible location, he was able to organize a defensive position that saved the rest of the 7th cavalry.

As you suggest, Benteen with his companies and the pack train held the key to survival for whichever unit he assisted.

Whether his decision to join with Reno was a sound battlefield decision by an experienced officer or a result of his dislike of Custer is a question for scholars.

I don't know if I'm a scholar, but after much study on this whole battle, I have concluded that Benteen was a consummate soldier, quite capable of any battle he pitched into. His record supports this. I do not think he would have let Custer die for any reason of hatred or dislike...

Crook it seems should have sent messengers in an arc around to the east of the Indians to warn the others coming in from the north as part of their three pronged attack. But not a word of condemnation of Crook is ever heard much less a court martial.

Some of the accounts I've read said the Indians thought Reno's attack was Crook returning.

If Custer would have just continued up the Rosebud he would have encountered evidence of the Rosebud battle. But as my old uncle liked to say "if ifs and buts were candy and nuts what a different world it would be".

I guess the burning tepee and the dead Indian Custer's troops found on the Indian trail should have been a hint that something bad had happened to the south. Like a battle.

I agree 100% and I don't blame Benteen for being a bit sore about the criticism he received from some quarters. He came to the battle and acted with the information he had and in response to what he could see.

Your scholarship regarding the Little Bighorn Battle is well known and respected. I appreciate your opinion and your contributions to this discussion.

Regarding General Crook’s fight on the Rosebud, I think it is important to understanding the Little Bighorn Battle, but I really don’t know what to make of it.

You’ve hit on the exact reasons I love threads like this.
We have Shrapnel for the LBH, Birdy and Kaywoodie for The Alamo and Texas Revolution, and probably a half dozen or more for Civil War and other stuff.
I consider myself to be very well read on American History, but I am constantly learning more about it from members of this board!
Reon

Excellent thread , Reon.

In answer to your other remark regarding The Battle Of The Rosebud, id say you’re spot on.
You can’t really look at Custer and LBH without understanding what happened on The Rosebud.
Custer, and most other officers had spent the 10 post civil war years chasing Indians who almost never stood to a pitched battle, and were damn near impossible to corral.
Pitched battles got members of the tribe killed, usually with nothing gained for them. They knew this, and so avoided a pitched fight.
Other than a few exceptions, where they had the upper hand, the Indians ran off.
Custer knew and expected the Sioux and Cheyenne to cut and run, which is why he split up the regiment. He was trying to at least capture enough Indians to convince the others to head back to the reservations.
Maybe had he known about Crook at the Rosebud, he would have approached this unprecedented size village differently. Sitting Bulls camp was probably 4 times bigger than any Army officer had ever seen before.
The Crow and Ree scouts knew this, but the officers of the 7th never realized until it was too late.
I believe it was General Miles who remarked that knowing what he did about Indian fighting he could find no fault in Custer’s handling of the fight.
Reon

After the Civil War, because of his war record, flowing golden locks and the fancy clothes he wore, Custer was a celebrity. There was even talk of him being a presidential candidate. At the victory parade in NYC, while riding a magnificent steed he had requisitioned from a reb, he had paid a lad to toss out a fluttering piece of newspaper in front of his horse. His horse and rearing, George masterfully controlled his horse.

It appears he loved the adulation He had entourage like a rock star, even to the point of bring his own journalist to report to the eager readers back east of his heroic exploits.

While at the summit of the Wolf Mountains in the early morning hours, it was reported that some Indians were seen breaking into paneers that had fallen off a pack horse.

He feared that these Indians would alert the main tribe and the Indians would flee. Hence, rather than wait a day and prepare, he started for the village, not knowing the number of warriors, weapons they had, the topography or even exactly where the village was. He ordered Bentsen to the south to block what he thought may be a fleeing tribe.

To not move at that time against the tribe, may have allowed Terry, Miles or Crook to be the heroes in bring the hostile to their knees and back on the rez.

The lone teepee was not burning, Custer’s scouts did that. Finding a dead Indian in a teepee that was still set up in an area that indicated a camp movement, would not indicate any previous conflict, certainly not with Crook.

Custer would not have gone far enough down the Rosebud to detect the lack of Crook or his conflict with Crazy Horse. I am sure Custer still expected Crook’s assistance, but his focus on the Indian encampment was his priority. Remember, that by this time his scouts had found that Indians had already discovered Custer’s presence when they found the Indians going through a lost pack on the trail.

These circumstances all contributed to Custer’s decision to attack the village on the 25th instead of the 26th as originally planned.

This picture is of the bluffs above the site of the lone teepee. I consider this the real beginning of the battle. It is at this site where Gerard first saw about 20 Indians that came out of a coulee mounted and heading towards the Little Bighorn River.

It is here that Custer sent Reno down Reno Creek to the Little Bighorn to strike the village from the south. It is argued as to the location of the lone teepee, and our conclusion is this is the correct location. The Park places the site at the location where the North Fork of Reno Creek meets the Middle Fork. Why, I don’t understand, because the testimonials of the participants of the battle describe the area near the white bluffs over 20 minutes or several miles from the Little Bighorn River…

Jim;
Good evening, I hope that you and your fine family are well, warm and dry tonight.

I hope also it's warming up enough that calving won't be an issue if you all do spring calving like most of the ranchers in our part of the world do.

Under the heading of it might not matter to anyone other than the Canucks here, but after the battle Sitting Bull and somewhere either way of 200 mostly Sioux crossed the medicine line pretty much north of Sam and settled near Wood Mountain, SK.

Being as that Canada was only 9 years old at the time, had just managed to get the NWMP set up and somewhat operating for 3 years, it was an interesting situation for the young country and it's new national police force to deal with.

We should be clear too that Sitting Bull and crew were not welcome up there by any of the other First Nations folks as the Sioux, Blackfoot Confederacy and Cree/Metis all vied for the same buffalo grounds, repeatedly showing they'd kill for possession of it.

The Sioux were granted a Federal Reserve east of there in southern Manitoba later on in 1876, the Oak River Reserve, which now goes by Sioux Valley Dakota Nations who claim 2500 members today.

The Canadian government had to contend with feeding the Sioux, maintaining peace between them and the FN folks who were already there and the ever increasing flow of settlers up here too.

Sometimes the government and the NWMP succeeded and sometimes failed. One of the better early NWMP leaders, Supt. James Walsh was peeved enough with how Ottawa handled the situation with Sitting Bull that he quit over it.

Obviously too, the Canadian government giving safe haven to Sitting Bull and company caused lots of tensions between Washington DC and Ottawa.

Anyways there was that going on too Jim.

All the best to you all.

Dwayne

Is the whereabouts of that table known today?

So they rode young cows?

Let's see the rest of it? Are you enrolled in a tribe? Do you avail yourself to the ability to use IHS?

Thanks everyone.

This has been very informative and enjoyable.

I am enrolled in a tribe. What is it about IHS you want to know?

IHS is pretty good out here.

I don’t know about IHS, but I do know that wherever I go, I have a reservation…

Sure...at Golden Corral.

Just curious if you use IHS for your health care. Mosr folks in Alaska of indigenous descent use it as it is free. Not too many BIA cards up here now. Most have tribal IDs. Do you?
Enjoying the Custer discussion. Read a book some years ago, The Stand, was the title. Fairly detailed account.

Can you get us some cheese 😂😂😂.

Many times it has been said that Custer disobeyed orders. At Reno’s Court Of Inquiry in January, 1879, Reno was trying to clear his tarnished name due to his actions at the Little Bighorn. This is 2 1/2 years after the battle, which also conveniently past the time when Reno could have been Court Martialed for those actions.

It was said at that hearing that Custer had disobeyed orders, here they are. Nothing in those orders were condemning Custer and his subsequent actions…


TERRY'S WRITTEN ORDERS TO CUSTER
June 22, 1876

The following is the written orders Brig. General Alfred E. Terry ordered to be written on the morning of June 22, 1876. Since the diastrous defeat of George Custer at the Little Big Horn, these instructions have been at the center of an ongoing debate as to whether or not Custer disobeyed Terry's orders. In a not so confidential letter to Generals Sherman and Sheridan after the battle, Terry inferred that Custer had indeed disobeyed his orders.

These orders were written hours before Gen. Custer departed on his last campaign. The previous evening there had been a meeting of General Terry, Colonel John Gibbon, Major James Brisbin, and Custer on the steamboat, Far West. The purpose of the meeting was to develop a plan of attack against hostile Sioux known to be in the Rosebud - Little Big Horn Region.

The following text is reproduced from page 462 of the Annual Report of the Secretary of War for 1876, which is House Executive Document 1 for the second session of the Forty-fourth Congress (Serial volume 1742).

--------------------------------------------------------------

Headquarters of the Department of Dakota (In the Field)
Camp at Mouth of Rosebud River, Montana Territory June 22nd, 1876

Lieutenant-Colonel Custer,
7th Calvary

Colonel: The Brigadier-General Commanding directs that, as soon as your regiment can be made ready for the march, you will proceed up the Rosebud in pursuit of the Indians whose trail was discovered by Major Reno a few days since. It is, impossible to give you any definite instructions in regard to this movement, and were it not impossible to do so the Department Commander places too much confidence in your zeal, energy, and ability to wish to impose upon you precise orders which might hamper your action when nearly in contact with the enemy. He will, however, indicate to you his own views of what your action should be, and he desires that you should conform to them unless you shall see sufficient reason for departing from them. He thinks that you should proceed up the Rosebud until you ascertain definitely the direction in which the trail above spoken of leads. Should it be found (as it appears almost certain that it will be found) to turn towards the Little Bighorn, he thinks that you should still proceed southward, perhaps as far as the headwaters of the Tongue, and then turn toward the Little Horn, feeling constantly, however, to your left, so as to preclude the escape of the Indians passing around your left flank.

The column of Colonel Gibbon is now in motion for the mouth of the Big Horn. As soon as it reaches that point will cross the Yellowstone and move up at least as far as the forks of the Big and Little Horns. Of course its future movements must be controlled by circumstances as they arise, but it is hoped that the Indians, if upon the Little Horn, may be so nearly inclosed by the two columns that their escape will be impossible. The Department Commander desires that on your way up the Rosebud you should thoroughly examine the upper part of Tullock's Creek, and that you should endeavor to send a scout through to Colonel Gibbon's command.

The supply-steamer will be pushed up the Big Horn as far as the forks of the river is found to be navigable for that distance, and the Department Commander, who will accompany the column of Colonel Gibbon, desires you to report to him there not later than the expiration of the time for which your troops are rationed, unless in the mean time you receive further orders.

Very respectfully, Your obedient servant,
E. W. Smith, Captain, 18th Infantry A. A. J. G.

K.huntz go find ur cheese hat wtf man

I think too many fall back on the idea that because Indians had found a pack mule they would know Custer was there. After any pitched battle, there were plenty of lost animals and stolen animals that then got away from both sides. Sometimes just traveling those miles long military caravans would lose animals.

Short of actually seeing Custers full troop or a large portion there of, it seems at that time finding that pack animal would have not meant anything special to the Indians being the battle with Crook southeast of there was only what, 8 days before?

Were the Indians from any distance able to see part of the 7th cavalry I again think they would have thought it part of Crooks command, as has been said here they made that assumption when the upper end of the village was struck first. They’d fought Crook to a standstill, that attitude may have played a big part. Who knows?

I’ve been often over on the Rosebud battle sight. Looking at the terrain and searching thru the recorded events of the day Crook made some incredibly questionable moves. Thanks to the independent way Indians fought he got away better than one would expect. It is hard however to see those battles in real light being no one alive has had to fight a battle with the same speed, equipment, horsepower, communications and manpower shortcomings of that time.

It’s obvious Custer made the ultimate blunders at LBH but I totally agree with Shrap… in what was the deal with Crook? Whose butt was his nose buried in? He knew the plan, knew the dates of the expected involvement with the hostiles and what his part was to be on those dates yet there he sat down near Goose creek hunting and fishing?
Crook had a command twice the size of Custer with nearly 1000 troopers plus civilians plus appreciable numbers of Indian scouts. The Rosebud battle that sent Crook into fishing, I mean hiding, same difference cost maybe 20 some troopers dead and double that wounded. 3% casualties took a force of over 1200 out of the field? Scurvey and rot foot did more damage.
No court martial, public inquiry of any consequence? The guy was either some big shots Sally or because the way things turned out at the LBH did the supreme powers want to use Custers demise as the final rallying cry to the American people that Indians must be done away with? Of course. I believe the “massacre” happened at just the right point for political advantage and holding Crook accountable would have been a distraction taking some of the flavor out of the dish so to speak. Crooks non participation in the culmination of that campaign is inexcusable.

Osky

Good thread. Thanks Shrap! I stay out of the LBH stuff. I know extremely little about it.

Suppose it’s a regional thing. Never really got into it. Here all the reading I’ve done is on Ranald McKenzie. While a yankee (said in jest). A very successful "Indian" fighter in his own right. Spend last weekend doing a living history event at Ft. McKavett. The staff is prepping 2024 for the sesquicentennial of the Comanche campaign.

Please continue. Very informative thread!!!

Wonder how much ammo the troopers had?

I recently visited the Little Big Horn National Park where Custer made his last stand, it's a chilling experience! I would encourage anyone who may find themselves in the area to give it a visit. Custer was overconfident and had little or bad intel regarding Indian #'s present.

shrapnel: What is your estimation of Major Reno and his conduct during the 2 days in question. I noticed that Benteen made a very brief report and referred further comments and reports to Reno.

Was Reno actively participating other than that charge when the Indians were moving in too close.

So little is written about the Rosebud fight compared to LBH, but what I have read, I find fascinating and the battlefield is totally undisturbed. That would have been something to see in action.

Sure seems to have been a lot going on there at that battle. Standing there gives a whole new perspective.
Thru that summer period the agency’s new full well how many had left the reservations to join the Indians who had refused reservation living. Indians didn’t make it a secret of where they were going and where the meet up was, on the LBH somewhere. It was known to the military and hence the pincer movement was planned. Custer from the east, Gibbon from the north, Crook from the southeast, mountains to the west.

Point being Crook knew a lot and what to expect, his scouts made him aware of the big encampment to the northwest, and some records even say the scouts ranging to the northwest could hear the LBH battle taking place.
There the guy stayed at Goose creek? With a thousand soldiers plus civilians.

I know that country between LBH and the Rosebud battle fairly well. It’s not easy country. I do not know the exact trail the Indians took to and from thru that mess but it’s gotta be 35 miles as the crow flies. To me that would be very interesting.

Osky

Trying to stick to eyewitness accounts and not hearsay, it is my opinion that Reno showed poor leadership in his engagement from start to finish. He had already been chastised for not following an Indian trail several days earlier when he was told to follow the trail and engage the Indians should he find them. It is truthfully better that he didn't find them, or he may never survived.

It is well documented that he was unnerved and fell apart at the river, once Bloody Knife was killed. His orders to mount/dismount and confused commands to the point it was every man for himelf, further indicates poor leadership. At the time all of this was happening a scout by the name of George Herendeen had taken refuge in the timber by the river and saved the lives of more than a dozen troopers as he kept them safe until they could join reno's beaten battalion on the top of the bluff.

Reno was certainly rattled and fortunate that Benteen showed up when he did, as he pleaded with Benteen to stay with him and save him from the Indians. Benteen did notify Reno at the time of his meeting, that he was to continue on in support of Custer. Benteen could see how deperate the situation was and probably saved the hill top with his organizational skills and tenacity.

It is also recorded that at one time Reno had suggetsted leaving the wounded in the makeshift hospital grounds and run for safety. Few people are aware of this and exhuastive research helps to qualify these actions as truthful.

I think this statement by Benteen is damning and it is no wonder Reno spent most of the rest of his life trying to clear his name. It was not an underserved tarnish on his record...

A couple other accounts that help qualify certain aspects of constant debate. George Herendeen was an accomplished scout and knew Montana's terrain well. He had been on an expedition to the Bighorn area 2 years previously and engaged many Indian conflicts on the way. His accounts are extremely reliable.

Lt Godfrey, who later became General Godfrey, also qualified the advance on the Little Bighorn due to frontier conditions, not Custer's arrogance and often misquoted zeal to kill Indians...

I read somewhere that the Reno-Benteen battalions expended 36,000 rounds. I would suppose the Indians were running low. If they had not been able to acquire some of the rifles and ammo carried by Custer's battalion they would have run short a lot sooner I figure. The Springfields would have been superior weapons for longer ranges than the Indian muzzle loaders and lever rifles.

Again, it is better to quote than suppose. This accounts for both the amount of ammunition per trooper and a statement of Indian arms. So often people run off at the mouth and claim how well armed the Indians were, even moreso with repeating rifles...

Going from memory here, so I could be wrong.
IIRC, each trooper carried 60 rounds for the Springfield 1873 cavalry carbine on his person or in saddlebags.
In addition they had the Colt SSA revolver with 24 rounds.
These guys didn’t get a lot of trigger time though. In garrison, they seldom did much range shooting.
I’m sure there were some pretty good shots among them, but on average the warriors were pretty safe considering…
Also , the Springfields took copper cased ammo, and in field conditions, often failed to extract. Then they’d have had to use a knife or a rod to knock the fired cartridge case out.
Historians are somewhat divided on the failure to to extract making a difference in the battle.
There was a prairie fire in 1983, which allowed battlefield detectives to recover quite a few expended cases.
I think around 1 in 4 showed evidence of the trooper using a knife to extract.
When you got a bunch of wild savages intent on lifting your hair, a failure to extract would pose a problem!😀
Reon

Still can’t post the video direct!🤬
Reon
Battlefield Detectives

Archaeogist son did get to do a bit of work with this fellow down at Palo Alto battlefield here in Texas.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_D._Scott

Shrapnel: Once upon a time I read a writing (maybe a letter) by Capt. Benteen in which he described the goings on at the Indian camp that first night. In essence he remarked on how the Indians had departed from their usual economy in firewood use and were burning large fires that night. Do you think that might have been in anticipation of a plan to hold down the Reno-Benteen soldiers the next day while the non combatants were packing to leave? Do you think there was a plan that night to retreat the next day and therefore no need to conserve wood?

I understand it would have been a bonus if they could have killed off the surviving soldiers but the Indian tactics must have been fairly timid considering that if the roles were reversed the army soldiers would have reduced that position rather quickly using military tactics.

Very interesting video. It seems to contradict a few things mentioned previously in this thread, with scientific certainty.

Osky

They hated Copernicus too!

From what I understood from the video, there was no last stand .

Nope, doesn’t seem like it. The story with a last heroic stand played better to the public. To this day there are some who keep Custers myth on a golden pedestal. So be it.

Osky

Another pretty good video.
Custer’s Last Trooper

I will second 257Bob’s comment. If you have a chance visit the battlefield. Sitting on the back veranda of the visitor center and listening to the ranger describe the battle while you look over the terrain makes many things clear. Riding the battlefield road and seeing the small white markers where soldiers fell and were initially buried gives a sense of the confusion and desperation that must have prevailed. Walking around the Reno-Benteen position and imagining the troopers trying to scrape the dirt with mess gear to create a little semblance of a firing position while suffering from the heat and thirst and expecting to be overrun at any moment. The place speaks to you almost a century and a half later of desperation and suffering and courage.

We passed by again this past summer, but could not stop. I didn’t realize from our first visit 25 years ago that you can see from I-90 the cemetery and the flag up on the bluff.

Outstanding.

The Battlefield Detectives video was quite informative. But what comes to my mind while watching it is the mindset of the 2 sides. The indians were protecting their homes, their homeland. Their very way of life was at stake. Imagine the anger and hatred inside the warriors as they fought their battles. Plus, the indian culture honored warrior behavior. The warriors grew up with an offensive idea. Counting coup and collecting scalps was a completely different culture from what the soldiers grew up with.
I try to imagine myself if my family, my loved ones, my way of life was in jeopardy from another people. I can understand the trauma the detectives found on the bones of the soldiers. I would have done the same thing.
The Little Big Horn was not just a battle of numbers. It was a battle of cultures. Unfortunately for the tribes, the numbers eventually won out.

Somewhat similar to the saga of The Man Who Wanted to be Left Alone frequently posted here. They knew by being driven to this their way of life would not recover. No downside to pure anger and hate. Injuns were destined for destruction.

Here’s a LBH participant I just came across….

Myles Moylan…

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myles_Moylan

1857, age 19,enlists in the 2nd Dragoons, possibly involved agains the Mormons probably posted to Texas patrolling against Comanches ( with little success). First Sergeant by 1861.

1861. Present at Battle of Wilson’s Creek (Missouri).

1862. Fort Henry, Fort Donelson, Shiloh. Promoted to 2nd Lieutenant 5th US Cavalry.

1863. Gettysburg. Later goes AWOL and enlists as a Private under an assumed name in the 4th Massachusetts Volunteer Cavalry.

1864-65 the 4th Massachusetts Cavalry was present Petersburg through Appomattox, by which time Moylan was a Brevet Major. Travels to California.

1866 enlists as a Private in the 7th US Cavalry. Quickly rises through the ranks.

1868 Present with Custer on the Washita, promoted to Captain.

1873 Yellowstone Expedition

1874 Black Hills Expedition

1876 LBH (serving under Reno)

1877 awarded a Medal of Honor after the Battle of Bear Paw (final act of Nez Perce War)

1890 Wounded Knee.

Promoted to Major 1892, retires to California 1893. Passed away in 1906.

There’s a guy who should have wrote a book

After the battle the Indian bands, expecting pursuit, scattered in all directions. IIRC most returned to the protection of the reservation. The following winter, one band of Lakotas still out was surprised by a unit of cavalry (under George Crook?) guided by Pawnee Scouts. The Lakotas had been up celebrating all night because their men had gone against the Shoshones in the depth of winter and returned with 30 Shoshone scalps.

Middle of winter, relentless pursuit, and they somehow spend the time and effort to go out and slaughter 30 Shoshone Indians.

One thing to consider is in the summer of ‘76 well more than 1,000 well-armed Lakota and Cheyenne Warriors were deep inside Crow Territory on the LBH.

Absent the quick response by US cavalry against those Lakotas and Cheyennes, it seems plausible that the Crows could have suffered devastating losses.

Here is a view you won’t ever see. This is from the bluffs above the site of the Lone Teepee. The line of trees and shrubs in the center, continuing clear to the right of the picture, is Reno Creek. In the right side of the picture, there is a visible knob that is known as Gerard’s knoll, where Scout Francis Gerard first saw the mounted Indians running toward the Little Bighorn River. From the knob, down toward the river is where the lone Teepee was that Custer’s Indian scouts discovered.

The brown field is where Custer and Reno came down the South Fork of Reno creek to the Middle Fork and the Morass that is referred to many times, for watering horses and trying to cross Reno Creek.

Understanding the sequence of the events of the battle, this becomes a pivotal site, as this is where it all started and Custer sent Reno down Reno Creek to strike the Indian village. This is also where McDougall arrived with the pack train, where Benteen came back in contact with that column and where Boston Custer left the pack train to join his brother on the Little Bighorn.


Many people have little understanding the significance of the Lone Teepee site in regards to the historic value of this location…

From what I have read, CPT Weir never spoke of what he saw from Weir’s point. There is mention from other troopers of what they saw, but nothing official from CPT Weir on what he saw of Custer’s fight. Was there any mention of him telling Libby of what he witnessed? What can be seen of last stand hill from Weir’s point.

After the Civil War, Custer spent some time here in Elizabethtown KY, most of that assignment was spent up in Louisville entertaining VIPs.

This is standing on top of Weir point. It is prominent enough to see Last Stand Hill from there, although it isn’t in view in this picture…

Yeah I've been there. It's a special experience and meant a lot to me because Custer has been an object of my studies ever since I was a kid

Weir supposedly left an Affidavit to what he saw with an Irish reporter, I believe his name was Kelly. It was supposedly pretty critical of Benteen and, especially Reno.
When Kelly left the states, the affidavit was given to Whittaker who was writing a bio of Custer.
It disappeared, if it ever existed, after Weir died.
Tom Weir wrote to Libbie Custer and Maggy Calhoun that if he shared what he saw at LBH , it would gladden their hearts and ease his mind shortly before he died.
Edgerly also claimed they had plenty of time to get to Custer, but if they had, they’d have shared his fate.
Also lt DeRudio said, “had we not been commanded by a coward, we’d have been killed.”
The Reno Inquiry was a white wash. Too many people from Reno on up would have lost a lot of face had the truth ever came out.
Nobody can say with certainty, what took place on Reno Hill as far as trying to get to Custer’s battalion.
But it definitely provokes some speculation in the minds of us history buffs!
Reon

This is true and the takeaway from all this is simply;

Reno was a poor but not inexperienced leader with no soul and cared for no one but himself.

Benteen was as capable as any cavalry officer could be, but hated Custer and he took too long to come to Custer’s aid.

Weir disobeyed orders to follow other orders to go to Custer’s aid, which did get Reno and Benteen to follow up to Weir point, only to be overwhelmed and sent back to their defensive site.

Everything else is like watching Indians play basketball. You don’t have a team of 5 Indians playing basketball, you have 5 teams of single Indians playing basketball…

Here's another video I came across while watching some of the one's posted above. It puts more dings in Custer's character. I'm in no way an expert on this subject. There are guys on here who are way more knowledgeable than myself. Seems to me that Custer didn't actually know how to fight Indians. He was very successful during the Civil War, but the Indians fought differently . The Indians during battle didn't need to be commanded. They did what they had to do to kill the enemy. As said above they were fighting for their way of life . It was an honor to die fighting the enemy. With the Calvary it seemed to be more of a sense of duty. After watching some of the videos it seems Custer thought the Indians would run away instead of run to the fight. The evidence of the way the Indians mutilated the soldier's bodies showed how brutal they fought. The fact that they were outnumbered and out gunned makes me think that Custer was a glory hound . Seems like he should have turned back and waited for more troops and artillery. Alot of what we read and hear is speculation. We will never know the truth about what really happened and why Custer did what he did.

When Penny and I were in Montana in 2017, I went to a living history exhibit at Ft Buford, near Williston SD.
While there, I met this fellow Gerry Schultz webpage .
Pretty nice fellow, and we spent over an hour talking about the LBH.
Gerry was putting together a book about Peter Thompson. He’d spent a lot of time walking in Thompson’s footsteps on the LBH battlefield.
He had a map overlaid with a timeline backing up Thompson’s story of what he saw that day.
If the book was ever completed, I have no idea.
Reon

How many Indian casualties?

Good video, DD. Thanks for posting it!
Shrapnel, as always you’re dead right.
This has been a helluva good thread. Lotta good information by some knowledgeable folks, and I thank each of you.
Regarding “The Last Stand” I keep think of “Uncle Hubb’s” speech from “Second Hand Lions”!
“Sometimes the things that may or may not be true, are the things you have to believe in the most.”
Did Custer and his men go down fighting to the last man and the last bullet?
Probably not. But we each need to have heroes in our lives, true or not, and General Custer surely fits the mold for some!😀
As the fellow said at the end of the video. The American myth is standing up against impossible odds, because what you’re doing is right! I certainly believe that, but then it’s no longer taught.😟
Reon

There’s many conflicting theories, running from a couple dozen to near a thousand!
From my own reading, I’d guess maybe 200 to 250, but the Indians took care of their dead and wounded, and no white man knows for sure.
As I said, most everything we know about Custer’s battalion is based on speculation and historical evidence.
Dang, I really need to get back out there and walk that ground.
Like most battlefields, the more you know about it, the more the terrain talks to you!
Gettysburg is always a surreal experience for me because I have read so much about it.
Both my spouses told me at different times, they thought maybe I died there.😀
I need to die a little at the Littlebig Horn and at San Antonio at The Alamo!😀
Reon

Did they use burial mounds?

I would argue that Custer knew exactly how to fight Plains Indians. Stealth followed by speed and surprise. The object to being in part to capture women and children which would limit further hostilities. This tactic having worked for Custer against the Cheyennes in ‘68 and for Ranald McKenzie against the Comanches in ‘74.

Custer’s tactics could have worked fine against a regular-sized Indian camp.


Yes and no. Speaking in generalities Indians did not so much fight battles as much as they went on raids. It was all about stealth followed by speed and surprise, preferably with the odds heavily in their favor. Achieving that required coordinated actions under the direction of a leader, part of whose prestige depended upon keeping everyone alive.

OTOH so much surprise and confusion at the LBH, with an unprecedented number of combatants present on the Indian side. Not much in the way of instructions was needed anyway.


Because they almost always did as long as their women and children could escape also.



Seems like they did that most of the time to everyone they killed regardless of the circumstances, tho exceptionally brave fallen enemies might be left untouched or even covered with a buffalo robe.


By which time there might be no hostiles within 50 miles….

.
Germans in the Seventh U.S. Cavalry
https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2880&context=facpub

Maybe we shot each other in Pickett’s charge🤣😂

Would you say the Indian's lack of coordination and cooperation is the reason they failed to reduce the Reno-Benteen position. From what I have seen when I've been there it looks like a coordinated attack could have taken that place in short order.

As I said earlier had the roles been reversed with 300 Indians defending that hill and 1000 U.S. soldiers attacking it would have been over quick.

Early bird, who can say? The only thing stranger than the reality we do know, is the reality that we don’t know!😀
The vid by Chris Hedges lead me to watch this one.

That’s causing me to reflect a little on many of the people I have come to consider heroes.
Was Custer a hero? Well, he was the 19th century equivalent of a movie star or a modern rockstar! Surely a flawed character, but larger than life. He was human, as are you and I.
I don’t want to get off this subject, lord knows I’m learning a lot about something I’ve been fascinated with for years!
But thinking about heroes provokes me to start another thread.😨
Reon

I’m inclined to agree, but I think maybe Sitting Bill held back.
He was pretty wise, and no doubt realized that this big win was going to cause way more trouble than it’s worth.
I think deep down, every Lakota or Cheyenne knew that their way of life was closing.
Many probably felt as some of us do right now with the decline of our country.
Sitting Bull probably realized that they had poked one helluva big hornets nest.
Reon

I reckon it had to do with Terry's column being spotted, and the Indians deciding to leave.

Terry’s column didn’t get there until the afternoon of the 27th. There was plenty of time for a concerted effort to overrun Reno Hill.
They’d surely have wiped out the seven companies there.
But as I said, they tended to avoid pitched battles, and even this being a slam-dunk, they knew that they would suffer many more losses by doing it.
And they knew as well that Terry and Gibbon were on the way.
Weighing the pros and cons, I think Sitting Bull decided against it.
Their blood was surely up. I’d bet dollars to donuts that the majority would have wanted Reno’s and Benteen’s hair.
It would’ve taken a strong leader to dissuade the people, and I think only Sitting Bull possessed that leadership.
Reon

Kinda schitty the way they killed sitting bull

Sitting Bull did not join in the fight, he stayed in camp with the non combatants. The presenters at LBH say it was on account of his age. Benteen was born in 1835. Reno was born in 1834. Sitting Bulls birth is reported variously from 1831 to 1837.

Maybe in the Civil War he was.
Not at the Little Big Horn, though.
In my opinion he was a selfish glory hound.
Ordering Reno to attack the south end of the camp and then abandoning him.
He used Reno as a diversion.

I didn't watch all the videos. But several years ago I saw a one hour program on tv, where there had been a fire at the Little Bighorn, and the ground was all cleared. A team of archaeologists went in with metal detectors. They didn't find many cartridge casings at Last Stand Hill, and so they declared that right there, Custer's men didn't put up much of a fight.

What the Phds overlooked, was one hundred years of souvenir hunting. When Terry's troops came in 3 days after the battle, and they saw the hill where Custer and Tom had been killed, you know some of those soldiers picked up cartridge casings for souvenirs.


There was another forum that I was on, a guy said that his dad and uncle went to Last Stand Hill, maybe in the twenties, and picked up a 5-gallon bucket of cartridge casings from Last Stand Hill and elsewhere on the battlefield.

These latter-day arechaeologists ignored a hundred years of souvenir hunting, therefore their conclusions are incorrect.

In a couple of the videos they said that the Indians that witnessed the battle said “ the battle lasted as long as it took a hungry man to eat his meal “. That tells me the battle was pretty lopsided.

He won’t no hero in the civil war

Since, Reno and Beteen’s men were stationery and had had a chance to get entrenched in their defensive positions, it was going to be far more difficult for the Indians to overwhelm Reno and Benteen than Custer. (During the night of the 25th, the men used canteen’s and spoons to dig slight impressions to hide in. In fact, some of those depressions still exist). With saddles and dead horses in front of them for protection and the men lying down, it was going to be costly for the Indians to mount a frontal attack. In fact, the Indians tried a charge and it proved costly.

Without water and the river being hundreds of yards away and hundreds of feet below and with the scorching sun, the better strategy was to keep the soldiers surrounded and take long distance shots.

And this is what the Indians did until Terry’s approach from the north.

I believe I recall earlier in a similar thread on LBH that Sitting Bull later said that if Reno had pressed his attack and held giving Custer time to actually attack the encampment that Custer would have carried the day.

"Hinde sight."

I read that description also. If true it didn't take long. Benteen said the bodies were scattered around as if you flung a handful of corn.

The physical evidence they are finding and cataloging is probably much better evidence than eye witnesses. My experience with eye witnesses is they are pretty unreliable. Any judge would likely tell you that. Not that they mean to lie but things get confused in the mind especially as time passes.To the Yankees he was. General Phil Sheridan held both Custer and Benteen in high esteem. I've wondered if he kept the two of them together to balance each other out as their command styles were very different.

No matter how much evidence you post, there are still those that won’t read it or just ignore it. All of these points have been covered more than once, providing plenty of evidence to the contrary…

What that dumbfck posts, ain't evidence.

Oh wow

Who is that dumb---?

.
No special evidence needed.
Just take the points that pretty much everyone agrees on :

Reno was ordered to attack the south end of the camp and he did so.
Custer promised Reno that he would back him up.
Instead of backing Reno as promised, Custer moved north to attack the north end of the camp and possibly corral some non-combatants.
It looks like Reno was used to poke the nest and in effect create a diversion.

Absolutely. I thought the same when I read the book about their findings

😂

The Civil War is what made him a household name

.
I think most agree on that.
The Appomattox surrender signing table story and all.

It sure is nice to be Monday morning quarterbacks, we did not live in the era, were not at the battle and have various and conflicting accounts of the battle by Injuns and whites. Custer had mostly inexperienced soldiers under his command who panicked, if he had Civil War veterans there would have been very different outcome. Their rifles also jammed and many pocket knives were found by the bodies of soldiers trying to pry spent brass out. There were a lot more Injuns than he anticipated even though they did see a large trail leading to the Little Big Horn. But the fact is if he had all veterans they would have dispersed the Indians because Indians would not face a well regulated cavalry as was the fact in almost all previous battles. Was Custer arrogant, yes he was but he was no fool.

I just want to know what became of GAC's 50-70 Rolling Block...

Speaking in generalities…..

Armies consist of expendable men who fight battles. Battles often include such things as charges into heavy fire to win the day. The only nations that can field armies were/are agricultural wherein some fraction of society can feed all the rest, including armies. While damaging, as long as losses were kept within reason their nations would survive.

Plains Indians were hunter/gatherers, there were no warehouses full of stored surplus grain we read of as long ago as Joseph’s Egypt. Most Plains Indian men had family members to support and the loss of warriors could result in actual starvation. This was reflected in their modes of warfare.

Agree, my point was that was one of the reasons Custer's command was wiped out. Indians usually did not fight as a unit but as individuals just like other primitive tribes. One of the best examples of military discipline was when Zulu's attacked the British at Rorke's Drift, and even though Zulus were a lot more disciplined army than American Indians they could not overcome trained and highly disciplined British.

Hum! Isandlwana 135 years ago today! (OK, a day off🤣)

James Smith (1737-1813) would strongly disagree 🙂

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Smith_(frontiersman)

Smith was one of those larger than-life historical characters whose life reads like improbable fiction. Captured in Pennsylvania age 18, he spent five years among the Mississagua Mohawks. Five years later he returned to his family and went on to organize a Frontier Militia against raiding Indians, White outlaws and eventually the British. Later in life he was present at the 1776 Independence Convention, elected to high office in Kentucky and eventually became a Christian Missionary.

Unfortunately his captivity narrative Scoouwa is not available for free online. Among hobby reenactors that narrative is notable in part because it details how early (1750’s) even backwoods Indians valued rifles and were expert in their use. This appreciation of cutting-edge firearms technology was still evident 120 years later at the LBH

Fortunately his other work, a treatise on Indian combat tactics, is available online for free, tho the link is a tad clumsy:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=umn.31951001521428f&seq=1

His basic premise is this….. war is their principal study…. sure he was talking 18th Century woodlands but the same was true on the Plains …in this they have arrived at considerable perfection.

General orders are given at the time of battle - either by a shout or yell - which is well understood, then they advance or retreat in concert. They are commonly well equipped, and exceedingly active and expert in the use of arms.

Look for Smith’s description of more complex battlefield maneuvers, some also commonly employed during deer drives.

Smith goes on to point out that Braddock’s Defeat and Arthur St Clair’s 1793 catastrophe on the Wabash (more than 600 soldiers and militia killed at slight loss to the Indians) could hardly have been so efficiently accomplished without considerable order and coordination among the Indians.

and give them Zulus Martini-Henry’s rifles too and the outcome coulda been different 🙂

The Indians had a reputation as being terrible shots with rifles unless at close range. So I've heard.

.
Quite a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking in this post ^^^

I guess there were Indians and then again there were Indians. In the early 18th Century the British Trader Adair pointed out that his Chickasaw customers would commonly fire 100 or more rounds wringing out a new trade gun (smoothbores, not rifles yet).

The people at americanlongrifles.com believe the longrifle first appeared in Pennsylvania (1740’s) in response to the demands of the Indian trade; nice to look at and being smallbore, were economical of lead and powder.

The first time British Redcoats got shot up in North America by long range riflery was when they went against the Cherokees in 1760.

1780, British Colonel Edward Hanger observed a 400 yard shot against himself by a Patriot rifleman, a near miss. For 56 years that was the longest recorded rifle shot with a round ball flintlock rifle.-

1836, Florida, Withlacoochie River, General Edmund P Gaines reported that his men were being hit by single aimed rifle shots fired at a distance between four and five hundred yards. Gaines himself lost a tooth to a ricochet. The guys firing those shots were Seminoles and/or their Black Seminole allies.

.
Everything I've read says that Reno had about 140 men and could not hold a skirmish line against the hundreds of warriors that met him at the south end of the camp.
Custer didn't have enough troopers for his plan to work.

If Benteen would have stayed south and continued west until he hit the river he possibly could have out flanked the warriors flanking Reno. But in reality things were happening so fast that timeline probably wouldn’t have worked out.

August Finkle the survivor

https://www.historynet.com/battle-of-little-bighorn-survivor-frank-finkel/

Daniel Boone said that was because they always yanked the trigger

I can’t remember who observed this and made the comment (F R Burnham maybe???). But apparently the Matabele had a habit of gripping the rifle extra tight, running the rear sight to full elevation, and jerking the trigger. 😁. Thinking this would make it shoot true, or some such nonsense

There's an excerpt from a W. M. Camp letter stating one of the two soldiers survived. Was this proven to be inaccurate?

The same can be said of our modern day population of:
1) hunters
2) LEO'S
3) military
As always, there are exceptions, and those who train around it.
A little adrenaline goes a long way. A lot of ammo doesn't always, which is why all of the above carry so much.

Also, the area known as Sharpshooter Ridge at LBH was not named after anyone in the 7th Cav.

Custer had if my memory serves me right around 40 men that were trained a sharpshooters under the command of Lt Cooke, they were pretty effective in other skirmishes and battles per Custer's book "My life on the Plains".

I can’t recall the officer who was, on the retreat from Weir Point, whose horse kept backing away. The Indians were 20 yards away shooting at him, and his orderly was laughing!
When he finally got mounted and had gotten a distance, he asked his orderly what was so damned funny.
The orderly said he was laughing at the Indian’s lack of marksmanship!😀
Reon

Peter Thompson would have a hard time to have been who was referred to as a soldier back near the Lone Teepee to survive some Indian encounter there. Peter Thompson and another soldier were down on the Little Bighorn River in view of Custer for a period of time and witnessed Custer above himself and not yet engaged with the Indians. Later Peter Thompson was involved with the transferring of water from the Little Bighorn River to the dehydrated soldiers atop the hill at the Reno/Benteen defensive site.

Peter Thompson was awarded a Medal Of Honor for his bravery in that action at “water carriers ravine”


This is where Water Carriers Ravine came to the Little Bighorn River, which is located south of the Reno/Benteen defensive site..

As much as anybody, an Indian’s life and livelihood revolved around the competent use of weapons. Their childhood had been largely spent towards that end, why should we be surprised if they knew how to shoot? Especially when they had been using firearms for generations.

‘Nother example regularly cited by us Texas guys: Dove Creek, 1864, a camp of Kickapoos was attacked by a party of Frontier Militia and Confederate Cavalry. The Kickapoos repulsed the attack with their Enfield rifles AND ran off their horses. The attackers ended up walking home.

‘Nother example, 1860, Texas Ranger John Salmon Ford went into the Indian Territory with 100 Rangers and a like number of Tonkawas after Buffalo Hump’s Comanches. It was a Tonkawa who dismounted and shot the Comanche Iron jacket in his Spanish mail off of his running horse, said Tonkawa packing a Mississippi rifle in its original .54 cal round ball form.

And that sharpshooter Indian was the exception to the rule. The soldiers put concentrated fire on him and eliminated him.

Were there any white men or half breeds in the Indian camp fighting for and with the Indians?

Did Custer have Gattling guns?

No, and I believe the only advantage he would have gotten from them is that they would have slowed him down and made him a day or two later which would have been a good thing. But he would have had to share the glory of winning with the infantry.

19 MOH’s given.

I’ve read he left them behind because they were to heavy or something like that.

…and then there were these guys, 189 Indians from backwoods Michigan who formed Company K of the 1st Michigan Sharpshooters, recruited because of their reputation for marksmanship skills.

Deadly Aim: The Civil War Stories of Michigan’s Anisishinaabe Sharpshooters

(AKA Chippewa I think)

I read somewhere that the way the Gatling guns had to be broken down and strapped up on the pack mules was a major problem and the mules had to be stopped often to rearrange/fix the strappings to keep the guns from falling off.

Also, one of the videos posted mentioned that Custer made a cardinal sin by breaking up his forces. Actually, breaking up the command into different elements was and is a Cavalry tactic. It is how a commander develops the battle. When Custer told Reno that he would back him up, I would think the intent was that Custer would use follow on forces i.e. Benteen or McDougall to reinforce Reno if necessary.

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Good observation.
We'll never know some details about the firefight at Last Stand Hill.
If we can trust the Indian report that "the fight lasted about as long as it takes a man to eat a meal", then 20-30 minutes ?

Last Stand Hill was where they found many fallen officers which in regular battle wouldn't make sense since the officers should have been killed next to their companies. After the battle as they started to piece things together they came to the conclusion that many of the recruits panicked and took off in every direction so it was easy for the Indians to massacre them, Officers then retreated to Custer and fell there with him.

Indians were experts in archery but most couldn't shoot a rifle or pistol straight, I'm sure there were some good marksmen but those were few and far in between.

Yeah they didn't even take Sabers. They were traveling light and fast

Yes, there are always exceptions. But from what I read the Indian's favored method of bison hunting was to ride in close and shoot which is the way they learned with the bow and kept it up with the low power rifles they favored.

When the white man took up buffalo hunting he shot from a distance with rifles such as the Sharps .50.

Fremont Kipp's correspondence with W. M. Camp seemed to reach the same conclusion (excerpt of a transcript):

yesterday I met a Patrick Brady
who joined the Regiment at Peas Bottom
Coming up on a Boat with 150 recrutes
Capt Hale being in Charge of recrutes
Brady remembers Thompson and Watson
well, and say he always heard they were
with the pack Train and never heard
of any story of their being Seperated from
the Same or from Reno after Pack

train Camp up to Reno Hill. Brady states
that after the fight at diffirent places
there was Eleven men left living and
he thinks if Thompson story were
true he would have heared of it. I am
not sure if Brady said he joined us
at Peas Bottom or at mouth of the
Rosebud that being Some weeks after
the fight Brady Statement is hearsay
but Mechling and I think he is right.
Mechling and I viseted W J Baily and
there is no doubt in our mind he
was just as he says Enlisted as a
Indian Scout the same as other
Indians were and was with Reno
in the Bottom. When I repeated Thompson
Statment to him about his Thompson being
some 300 yards from Custer when he was
killed and then trying to get in the village
getting within 75 yds of nearest Teepes and
to center of River when they were
Discovered and driven back. Mr Baily
became very mad saying Thompson
was a G—D— liar that with all that

hord of mounted Indians it would
not be possible for him and Watson
to get away Mr Baily becoming so mad
that Mrs Baily had to quiet the old
man down
Mechling and I beleive Thompson and
Watson were with Pack Train and that
he is lying when C Troop was going
toward the Battle there must have
been some officer Nom-Com-officer
in the rear to prevent men from
falling out as Thompson says they did
a whole set of fours falling out near
the lone Teepe and two men taking
the back trail is unbelivable
I think he wants to be Considered
the last man that seen Custer alive.

I find it quite interesting, the various accounts of what happened by the actual participants of the battle.

I questioned Steve Adelson (battlefield historian) about Thompson’s testimony of seeing Custer on the hill above himself and not engaging the Indians for a time of almost 20 minutes. Steve called Thompson a liar and said that Custer would not wait any period of time before attacking the village. My thoughts were that if Thompson’s account was true, Custer may have paused, waiting for Benteen and reinforcements…

In the early 70’s my grandpa took me to a cemetery where six, 7th cavalry soldiers under Custer’s command, were buried. It was the Bon Homme cemetery west of Yankton, SD. The soldiers had been reinterred there from their original burial site on Snatch creek, 1873.
These soldiers were on their way to fort Rice and on to fort Abraham Lincoln in present day North Dakota when they got caught in an April 14th blizzard that lasted several days. There is no record of their deaths in any official reports. It was rumored they may have died of typhoid so they wanted to keep it quiet. Some say they were drowned.
They were delayed by flooded Emanuel and Choteau creeks and miserable conditions. My grandparents farm was along Emanuel creek.
Custer himself was so ill he was confined to bed for several days.

He was a Yankee, following in Sheriden and Sherman's example. He should have been shot dead long before it happened.

Sherman and Sheridan are a different category 😉 Custer got what he had coming from the redskins👍

The only Custer detractor that I can agree with!
Helluva man, helluva General, he lead from the front! His uniform was that of a “circus rider”, because he wanted his men to see him and follow!
Never said go here or do this. He said “Follow Me!” “Come on you Wolverines!”
If you can’t respect a fellow like that, what can I say?
He had plenty of chances to get shot full of holes, but he was pretty lucky!
He lost at LBH because he did what his experience had told him fighting Indians. Usually they’d fight long enough for the non-combatants to get free, and then withdraw themselves.
But Sitting Bulls camp was far bigger than anyone imagined.
Had he taken his scouts advice, and held up, probably they’d have broken up and escaped.
Nobody can say, what might’ve happened had Reno carried his charge through. He might’ve broken up the camp, or he might’ve been wiped out.
The Indians thought the former, and Custer would have been a hero.
Like the Ranger said at LBH “Benteen hated Custer, and Reno hated both of them.”
Custer’s moral compass didn’t always point north. He could be petty and chickenshit, as the record shows. But the man had solid brass nads!
Reon

You really don’t have a clue, do you. What do you consider a Yankee? What were Sherman and Sheridan’s examples that Custer followed?

You really don’t know do you?

True. If anyone ever had brass balls it was Custer

In the interest of continuing a cool thread.

The Sharpshooter wouldn’t have had to be White or mixed, popular History tends to nail our Indians in place. Eastern tribes were out West early, armed and equipped like White men but with Indian skills. It is my understanding that the largest contingent of Rocky Mountain Fur Trappers were Iroquois, fifty years before the LBH.’

The Cherokees were in Mexico by the 1790’s. 1820’s, Cherokees were providing protection to the Mexican settlements along the Rio Grand against Indian raids. Sequoia himself, the mixed-race Cherokee syllabary guy from Tennessee died in Mexico in the 1840’s having travelled down from the Indian Territories seeking to find the Mexican Cherokees.

The exact same Seminole guerillas of the remarkable marksmanship in the Second Seminole War (source Bosworth 1840 “A Treatise on the Rifle”) when they fought the US to a stalemate were all over West Texas a decade later and likewise contracted to protect Mexican settlements. Wildcat, a principle leader in the Florida swamps is easy to track because he was famous, feared in Texas in the 1850’s, the same individual who contracted with Mexico. Smallpox got him in 1857.

Somewhere in there the infamous Scottish-born Scalphunter James Kirker’s no. 2 man in Northern Mexico was the Shawnee Indian Killbuck and his Shawnee/Delaware crew.

An eighty year old Delaware in 1836 coulda been born in New Jersey, lived in Pennsylvania during the F&I War, the Ohio territory during the Rev War, Missouri during the War of 1812 and been living in Texas at the time of the Alamo. Delaware trappers from Missouri, the Indian territories and Texas made it to California and back some years before Kit Carson and Delaware Scouts were frequently employed in Texas 1830’s through 1860’s.

A Delaware Indian easy to track because he was written about was Black Beaver, fluent in English, French, Spanish a number of Indian languages and sign language, born in Illinois 1806. Goes west as a fur trapper, lives five years in Oregon and California, two years with the Crow and Blackfeet. Later scouts for a number of US expeditions including Fremont and the US Boundary Commission, given a rank as Captain in the US Army at one point. Establishes the California Trail, establishes the Chisholm Trail with his partner, active on the Union side during the Civil War.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Beaver

“Half Breed” is sorta redundant as it implies an F1 hybrid whereas miscegenation quickly became multigenerational, it doesn’t appear to be an Indian term as they slaughtered each other based mostly on claimed affiliation as much as ethnicity.

The West was a complex place, heck even Sitting Bull adopted a Polynesian 🙂

There has been rumored speculation that some buffalo hunter was with the Indians and fired at the 7th Cavalry. I doubt that is true at all.

We did find a Sharps paper patch bullet about 7-8 miles east of the battlefield that may have been part of the aftermath of the battle. In our discoveries, we found a 45-70 case, bullet and cartridge that could indicate a conflict back toward the Lone Teepee site, that would suggest that there was a skirmish between Indians and a trooper.

On a ridge is where we found the case and below the ridge toward the battlefield, we found a bullet. We also found a complete cartridge not far from the bullet. It is hard to determine just what happened there, but something surely did. Were there a few shots fired in defense as a trooper was escaping?

The paper patch bullet was found nearly 1/2 mile east of the ridge where the case was found. The trajectory from where the bullet was found to the top of the ridge would suggest that the paper patch bullet could have been fired from an Indian position below the ridge. The map shows the area as I marked it in regards to cases and bullets found, that could confirm the actual conflict 6-8 miles east of the battlefield.

No one has ever investigated this area other than us. It doesn’t prove anything, but it certainly shows the possibility of an escape from the battlefield with Indians in pursuit…

Custer Luck! Any thoughts on why Custer cut his long hair off, a day or two before the battle?

Cool

It is summer, Montana can get hot in June and I am sure that it was plenty hot where he was leaving from. I’m also certain, he wasn’t concerned about getting scalped by Indians…

A Sharps was sold a few years back that came from the battlefield. Indians had a vast array of weapons among them, Sharps, although not many…




https://www.oldwestevents.com/highl...sed-custer-battlefield-1874-sharps-rifle

Big money😵‍💫

Very interesting information.

I read a book written by an English author. I think it was called Red Sabbath.

The book basically states the 7 th over extended their horses/ mules and lightened their load the troopers carry. They also failed to have enough reconnaissance to accurately asses the forces they were facing.

One thing they quit packing was their sabers. According to the author sabers were Big Medicine, they were a source of fear to the Native Americans. One did not want to lose limbs, hands etc before one dies. They don’t grow back. But bullet holes I assume did heal in the after life.

Dismemberment of the enemy was a priority of Native Americans, especially if they were still alive. Perhaps that is why the estimated battle length varies.

A friend of mine went to the battlefield. He stated the grave markers looked very similar to a battle he was involved in in Cambodia. He was in a Chopper assigned to evacuation of South Vietnamese and their Allie’s.The South Vietnamese were over run and had a frantic retreat. The bodies left after the fact looked much like the LBH grave markers.

I found the account by Charlie Windolph of H company where he speculates that sharpshooter was a "renegade white man, or a squaw man of some kind or other. He could shoot too well to have been a full-blooded Indian".

Doesn't make it true, but does tell us the opinion the soldier had of Indian marksmanship.

Who knows, I don't imagine a white man would openly take credit if true. Likely it was an exceptional Indian.

Might have run across the map mentioned in W. M. Camp's book:

3. Walter Camp prepared several maps pertaining to the Little Bighorn River fight, one of which is a large table-size map in several sections. The identifications in this Curley narrative are not shown in the Camp map illustrated in this book. Camp uses the terms Reno peaks, Edgerley peaks, and Weir peaks interchangeably.





https://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/digital/collection/p15999coll31/id/52248/rec/32

The problem with books is that most have been written from reading other books. George Herendeen stated that the cavalry mounts were not worn out and tired when they approached the village. The ensuing battle and chaotic running of horses once the battle started, would then contribute to the horses getting tired.

Reconnaissance before the battle was done in accordance with the terrain and scouting that was done in the limited time and space they had to deal with. Armchair quarterbacking continues today as is illustrated by some of the comments made here.

IF:
Indians had compound bows
Custer had Gatling guns
Custer had kept his forces together
Crook had continued up from the Rosebud
Custer had just 1 M16
Custer had radios

You could go on and on, but none of those ifs happened and history records Custer’s defeat on June 25, 1876. The problem with history is that Custer died a Hero’s death in 1876 and today he is maligned as some fool.

The more you study Custer and listen less to myth and speculation, the more you realize what a cavalry leader and Indian fighter he really was…

If the ponies weren’t exhausted.

Why were the mules so far behind them?

It is my observation mules won’t allow themselves to be pushed beyond their limits.

If they were advanced without the mules………what did their ponies eat?

Where was this statement of “ fitness” of livestock from?

Does it have cooperation of other statements?

How far had they traveled in the 72 hours prior to the massacre?

Why did they dismount from a skirmish line, and flee on foot?

Would not with superior livestock…….simply retreat to attack another day?

One of the strangest things I read in another book was a horse that was believed to be with Custer showed up in St. Louis in its former stall. Much later.

Custer was a hero up until about the 1960s. But then revisionist history and Indian Apologist kicked in, and he got massacred again.
Growing up in the ‘70s, I had a pretty negative view of his place in history. A glory hound, and a fool who sacrificed his command in search of that glory.
But he’s one of those people in history, that the more you know about him, the more interesting he becomes, and you lose the first impression.
There are many things to admire about the General. His record through the Civil War and his actions after The Washita battle show that.
Would I have liked to serve under him in the 7th? I can’t say. I would trade my left one to be part of the Black Hills exposition in 1874 though!
I said to Penny when touring that area, “it’s no wonder the Indians felt this land sacred. If I were God, it’s where I would live!”
Whatever you believe about him, you gotta admit that he always did his best, and he led his men from in front!
Reon

History indicates that Custer failed to properly estimate the size of the enemy force and put himself and his men in a desperate defensive action against an overwhelming force.
The more I study Custer, the more I see the multiple bad decisions that were made and how they led to the disaster at LBH.
Can a leader make all these documented mistakes, jeopardizing his command and still be revered as a hero in the action ?
Benteen was able to save the remainder of the 7th.
Who was the better commander that day ?

To paraphrase the Wizard.

The mule knows

These questions are so random, they don’t make sense. Custer had horses, not ponies and they were good cavalry mounts. The pack train was mules and mules would never keep up with the advance of Custer’s horses. Custer was ahead of the mules, not trying to keep up.

What does what a horse has to eat, have to do with the advance to the Little Bighorn?

What are you referring to about dismounting for a skirmish line and fleeing on foot?


Retreat and return another day? Good Lord, you have either read too many books or not enough…

This has been discussed quite thoroughly, and,it appears your hatred for Custer lies mostly in hyperbole and lack of understanding 19th century Cavalry and fighting Plains Indians…

Custer may have been quite the Indian fighter. He wasn’t that day.

He had many warnings of the hostile forces, he disregarded them.

He split is command into multiple factions, no acknowledging the superior force.

He promised his support to Reno should he need it, all Reno got was Custers dust. No wonder he disliked him.

The hottest summer any could remember he had his troop on the leather since 3:00 am, came over from the Rosebud camp which had been a hard push, that’s not flat country, and attacked at the hottest point in the day to a wide awake village. A village that do to the heat more than likely had most braves in the shade of the teepee, arms nearby. Response time couldn’t have been much faster. The soldier mounts were weak at best. Not a lot of water between the Rosebud and the Little Bighorn.
You only need to look at the cattle drives of that era and after to note the size of the accompanying horse herd. Cowboys would use three, and sometimes four mounts in a single hot day and that’s moving at a cows walking pace. Those troopers were pushed harder than that.

There are other common sense observations of Custers decisions that day but I do not put the final fall of that northern detachment under Custer at his feet. There are native accounts of the lead most portion of Custers command making it down to the river and were there first repulsed involving a leader who was shot down and quickly put back over a saddle by others and then the hill retreat began. There is no doubt in my mind Custer would have been leading, and was shot right there. Anyone else shot around him would not have stopped the entire advance. Resistance wasn’t that heavy there yet.
As much as I disagree with him being such a glorified leader I don’t think were Custer of full faculty or in control that retreat would have been as scattered and unorganized as the evidence would show. He was better than that.
They report he had two wounds, one in the chest and one in the temple region. I think he may have been alive but unconscious during the uphill retreat and towards the end a trooper made sure he didn’t suffer at the hands of the natives.

Like every one else barring none, I wasn’t there.

Osky

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No, no. Not at all.
I do not have hatred for Custer.
That is somehow your misinterpretation of what I have posted and I certainly did not mean to convey that.
From reading your posts, you think Custer was a hero and that of course is your privilege.
I can't make the jump to "hero" in regards to the action on 7/25/1876 at LBH.
I read the reports and see a series of mistakes that led to the disaster.
This entire event is about leadership, in my opinion.
There are still many things that you will never know and that I will never know.
For example, did Custer kill himself ? We will never know.

And then there’s the spiritual aspect. You may say it was destined to happen.
According to Sitting Bulls vision of soldiers falling upside down into camp, “these were given to you because they had no ears”.

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Those are good observations, Osky.
You speak like you've led men.

The first day Custer rode a brisk March of 12 miles. They averaged 3 miles per hour. They would ride one hour, walk for 1/2 hour. They had 630 horses ( not ponies ) , and 140 mules. ( it is estimated it took 3 hours a day to care for them, and 200 acres of “ pasture”) which required 24 hour surveillance.

At 5 am the next day they did 32-35 miles. They began following Indian sign. There was not much forage left as each warrior had 3 head of ponies, these ponies were perhaps better suited to the dry parched grass than the grand “ Calvary mounts”.

The next day was 28 miles. Not only was feed scarce, the water was un drinkable.

At 1945 on June 24 1876 , the column stopped at the busby bend of the Rosebud creek.

Custer most likely had not slept for over 30 hours……ordered the column to move at 2300 hours. They climbed 1700 feet of elevation and stopped to rest at 0315 at Davis creek. Again the water was un drinkable. Custer left the main troop and went on with his scouts.

At 1050 hours Custer returned and ordered an attack. He wanted to move immediately upon the village.

“We were tired, and dirty and hungry. Our horses hadn’t had a drink of good water since the day before; and we weren’t much better off.” Corporal Windolph


This amount of travel doesn’t consider the extra reconnaissance that Reno’s troop endured.

How on earth can one believe “ These were fit horses?”

How also with the facts that they were following the processions of the enemy, the lack of forage left showing the enormous amount of ponies, and the scouts estimate of 1500 Warriors could one conclude that Custer made the most excellent decisions and was not negligent in his command?

30 % of these warriors had repeating rifles/carbines.

Did the army call that a "remuda"?

Custer was a Civil War hero, not mine. I have a lot of admiration for his life accomplishments which escapes many people. It was hard for America to understand how a decorated Civil War hero could meet such an end by plains savages. This was in the centennial year of our Declaration Of Independence. It was shocking and discussed as such. Later adjustments to his accomplishments in the 50’s and 60’s, created a different image of Custer.

Growing up in Montana, and having a county, a forest and town named for some idiot that got killed by Indians, always left me wondering, how and why. I had a keen interest in the Custer Battle since I was a kid. Visiting the battlefield and fishing on the Little Bighorn River for catfish, peaked my interest even more.

While catfishing on the Little Bighorn in the early 70’s I found my first 50-70 case near the river. Increasing my interest considerably, I continued on with my education of Custer and the battle. It was in the years following that I came to understand Custer for what he was and not for how he was remembered.

That study led to many discoveries of Custer’s life and his battlefield experiences. I admire his tenacity and energy, unequalled by many of his contemporaries. I have posted references throughout this series supporting my observations and most arguments against him are from questionable sources and hearsay.

Was Custer perfect? Not hardly, there are instances where his performance in his capacity as a post Civil War soldier were deplorable. Trying to be objective which will bring a more positive light to who Custer really was, it is still my conclusion, Custer was a tireless and energetic leader with few capable of staying with him.

Would I have wanted to serve under him, absolutely not. But I do know why Phil Sheridan counted on him for the ability he had to get things done…

I’m not a Custer fan myself 🤣👍

I think if you watch the movie thats posted here.

You will see they found no evidence of Custer being repelled by the river.

Page 8 posted by direct drive.


They postulate his troop pursued the running women and children. And upon their return formed a skirmish line.

It went downhill from there, pardon the pun.

A fool will cling to a preconceived notion after he’s shown evidence to the contrary.
As I said, I thought Custer a glory hound who led his command to death pursuing the glory he wanted.
But the more I read, the more I realized that that preconceived notion was wrong.
People judge Custer’s life from what happened on the last few hours of it, ignoring the many wise decisions and heroic actions of the past.
I once thought that Grant was nothing but a head down butcher, from the results of The Overland Campaign. But studying Grant’s war record will show that he was a pretty savvy general. The strategies and tactics show that in his earlier campaigns, and he recognized the shortest way to end the war in 1864/5’was to bleed Lee dry. I know the casualty list caused him a lot of pain. Other officers often found him weeping over it.
For what he did to shorten the war, I admire him, and for Custer’s accomplishments I admire him as well.
Reon

Did you know President Grant was arrested. Trump was not the first!

He was drag racing his buggy!


But for the Custer deal…….

Pushing Horses 90 miles in 3 days… in 85 degree weather …..no water , little feed ……..


You gotta be a special breed to think that dogs gonna hunt.

Grant wont a saint

Yeah, I read that! IIRC he pleaded guilty and paid the fine.
Had he been around the P-ville Summer Nationals in the ‘80s we’d have probably lined them up!
As to the condition of Custer’s horses I can’t say. I figure they’d have been played out, but the horses I know are in engines. I’ll take Herendeen’s word for it, but they’d have had to been tired. One cannot deny the last couple days of Custer’s march.
Reon

What he got right at the Washita was surprise a sleeping camp at dawn in the winter. What he also did right is take around fifty women and children prisoner. Once engaged he found there were more Indians along the Washita River than he knew of (shades of the LBH??) and was forced to disengage in a hurry, before he knew the whereabouts of his Second in Command Major Joel Elliot and 16 men.

It is true that Elliot charged off without Custer’s knowledge and they were likely dead before Custer could have saved them anyway

IIRC the presence of those captives forestalled any retaliatory attacks by the Indians during Custer’s withdrawal.

Just to clarify; taking a bunch of living women and kids prisoner was an effective way to restrain their menfolk from attacking further and to cause them to return to the reservation.

the story of the Ree scout where he mentions coming upon 3 different soldiers whose horses had gave out spoke volumes. at least some animals were very stressed.

Another interesting thing I read was that General Crook used private contractors to wrangle his mules/ pack trains.

I believe General Crook rode a mule.

Mike, I was referring to the treaties he worked out with the Southern Cheyenne after the Battle of Washita, not the fight itself.
What happened there, and at LBH for that matter, was the result of little or bad reconnaissance.
But he knew that the time required for reconnaissance would allow the Indians to escape.
Sorta damned if you do or damned if you don’t situation.
But he did get himself out of the jam by quick thinking .
Joel Elliot went off without Custer’s knowledge. By the time he realized that Elliot was missing there was nothing he could do. Elliot was probably dead by then anyway.
I have never heard of anyone holding him accountable other than Captain Benteen, and Benteen’s vendetta against Custer started before Washita.
Reon

A good article on Custer.

https://www.historynet.com/wounds-from-the-washita-the-major-elliott-affair/

I wouldn’t have liked him, but as I said earlier being congenial ain’t a prerequisite for (nor necessarily a hindrance to) success in battle. His courage had been proven many times and as far as I know he always led from the front, asking nothing of his men in combat that he wouldn’t chance himself.

Benteen never forgave Custer for actions that didn’t need forgiving. Elliott left on his own without Custer’s knowledge. At the point they were missing Elliot, Custer sent captain Myers to locate Elliott, which they didn’t. To escape an attack from other Cheyenne warriors from another camp downriver, Custer abandoned the idea to risk his immediate command and captured Indians, and sounded retreat.

This doesn’t support much of the criticism of abandoning a company in the field, as it was prudent to save the battalion over a lost and unauthorized contingent led by a zealous Major.

The Arabs in the Gaza Strip are copying Custer.

Off topic but on topic concerning Eastern Tribes at least abilities with firearms….

Ben Franklin 1755. Not many know he was given the charge of defending Pennsylvania’s NW Frontier during the F&I War.

https://www.ushistory.org/franklin/autobiography/page71.htm

It was well that we were not attacked in our march, for our arms were of the most ordinary sort, and our men could not keep their gun locks [flintlocks] dry. The Indians are dexterous in their contrivances for that purpose, which we had not.

Advance to the next page of the narrative and you’ll see his description of the construction of a frontier post. A good guy with axes could fell 60+ft 14” pine in six minutes.

For the next reference Google Cherokee rifle 1760 Fort Prince George.

The same day one of the soldiers was shot in the North-East Angle of the fort, from the hills on the other side of the river: He died of the wound yesterday.

We have reason to believe the Indians have a good many rifle-barreled guns among them, as their bullets seem to come this way with great force.

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I don't doubt that some indians at LBH were good marksman.

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Here's documentary from 2021 that some here have probably seen.
It's a paid-for thing....I couldn't find any free streams to post.
I'll say up front that some of the acting isn't that great IMO, but overall it gets a good rating from the reviewers.
The script seems to try to stick with what has been reported in the after-action interviews.
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https://www.strategyofdefeat.com/

Indian imbecility with guns is one of the more persistent of our pop history norms, about as strong as the presentation of Indians as friends of the Earth.

Tying things together, James Smith, who lived five years among the Mohawk and became a Frontier Militia leader pointed out that the Eastern Woodland Indians highly coordinated and disciplined ambush tactics were related to their practice of mass deer drives, often at night. Deer were shot in large numbers solely for their hides. I don’t have the reference but the Cherokees alone brung in 145,000 deer hides to British traders in Savannah in 1744.

At the Fort Pitt Museum in Pittsburg they state that 298,000 bucks (“buck” being the term for a deer hide, later becoming slang for money) were brought in, mostly by Delawares, in one year.

In return among other things the Indians had the capital to buy those expensive smallbore longrifles so economical on lead and powder, said economy important when you live a long way from the supply. The people at americanlongrifles.org point out that as the main provider of hides and furs at the time, the Indians would have much use for these rifles.

Having owned and shot both, I’ll take a 20 ga smoothbore trade gun over a rifle anyday. Loaded carefully, you can still get minute of deer out past 70 yards and it’s a far more versatile arm for feeding people and in a combat situation can be loaded faster and longer before it fouls out. But I’m not rationing small amounts of lead to take large numbers of deer.

Neither apparently were the settlers in Upstate New York where NO records of settlers owning rifles can be found, whereas at the time of the Rev War about half the firearms owned by their Iroquois neighbors may have been rifles (based on their own post-war loss claims to the Brits in Canada).

So when our longhunters headed out after hides and furs in their turn, they dressed and armed themselves like Indians, for the same reasons.

Stanley Vestal (the pen name of Walter S. Campbell) wrote an article on the subject of Indian marksmanship in GUNS Magazine.

"The Indians were all armed with repeaters," is one
claim made about the Custer massacre. Of major interest
then is the matter of how many Indians had repeaters and
the answer is, not many. Numbers and time defeated Cus-
ter. More than 1,000 fighting Indians were battling on
the bluffs June 25-26 in 1876 when Yellow Hair went down.
But the number of soldiers engaged was only 204. Only
16 Indians were killed, while the 204 were wiped out by
superior numbers.

Major Reno in the Big Horn bottoms had his hands full
June 25 with another 1,000 Sioux. About 150 soldiers
stood off repeated attacks of nearly ten times that number
of Indians. Eight Indians were killed; 32 whites. Two
Indians were known to be wounded, for seven soldiers shot.
But it was not a massacre, and Reno's outfit survived the
assault. In the battle of the Rosebud on June 17, 1876,
1,000 Indians and 1,300 whites fought. With more even
odds, the casualties were nearly even. Ten white men and
eleven redskins bit the dust. Five Indians were wounded;
21 whites.



HOW GOOD WERE INDIANS AS SHOOTERS?

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Yet others would say that Custer was defeated not merely by superior numbers, but that he was out-maneuvered.

The purpose of this paper is to determine what factors, other than sheer numerical superiority, led to the Indian victory at the Little Bighorn on 25 June 1876, and demonstrate that the Sioux and Cheyenne warriors outperformed the 7th Cavalry in all war-fighting functions during the battle. In the final analysis, it is reasonable to assume the Indians numerical superiority made a 7th Cavalry victory impossible they were not in a position to drive the Indians from their village and burn it, as they had at the Washita River. However, considering the soldiers and firepower that Custer had at his disposal, the complete annihilation of his force cannot be accepted as a foregone conclusion. If the Indians had been a disorganized mass of savages, Custer possessed the combat power to fight his way out or establish a successful perimeter defense as Captain Benteen and Major Reno did. The reason he was not able to accomplish either course of action owes to the fact that the 7th Cavalry was tactically outperformed during the Battle of the Little Bighorn the unrelenting pressure of the Indian attacks caused Custers five companies to lose the discipline, organization, and control that might have saved them. The popular American perception that Custer was defeated only because of the sheer number of warriors engaged in the fighting completely ignores the superb leadership and tactical prowess that ensured an Indian victory and, therefore, cannot be accepted as inevitably leading to the massacre of Custer and his entire command. Such an erroneous view detracts from the true nature of the Indian victory and discounts the leadership, martial prowess, and valor the Sioux and Cheyenne warriors displayed in their annihilation of Custer and his five companies a victory that has become an integral and important part of American history in general and the U.S. military tradition in particular.

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/ADA401397

Wow! Guns, December 1956, the ads and articles got me all nostalgic and I wasn’t even there Great link.

Of course, taking the side that Indians were good with firearms I approve of his conclusion (tho I dunno the stats he posts are definitive either way):

Man to man, too often the Indians matched the whites’ firepower superiority with brains, cunning and straight shooting and won. With the few guns they had the Indians could shoot well.

I will observe that he was speaking of Plains Indians. A century earlier both Indians and White observers remarked that the Woodland tribes long in proximity to the settlement line “had forgotten the use of the bow”, meaning they did most all their shooting with firearms so of necessity must have had a bunch.

Adding to their competency with weapons and their fieldcraft skills (up until the very end of the Frontier Era we were finding Indian scouts were necessary to track down Indians), ya gotta throw in the feats of physical endurance common to Indian warfare.

One of the 1830-40’s stories about the legendary Texas Ranger Jack Hays is that he was out on foot hunting with a party of (rifle armed) Delaware Indians when one of their party was killed by a passing Comanche War Party.

In response the Delawares, accompanied by Hays, ran non-stop two days straight on the trail of the mounted Comanches and on the third morning took the Comanche camp by surprise.

Jack Hays was undoubtedly an exceptional fighting man, but I dunno that he would have the physical conditioning and childhood raising to run two days straight. No one doubts that the Delawares did tho.

Populate the Frontier with Indians like that, and the deeds of our guys actually able to operate in that environment become even more impressive.

That is a wonderful thesis but just that.
Indians are famous for individuality and resourcefulness. Fighting with tenacity and bravery is not the same as under control and command.

Indians did have the man power, more so when the Benteen and Reno groups were pinned down. The natives were better rested as were their mounts making them far more fluid. Natives lived a hard life dealing with any edge they could get. If they could circle, flank, move to a better position to shoot of course they did. They could spot the chance and didn’t need to be commanded. At LBH when this happened it wasn’t 10 or 20 moving to flank you, it was 100-200. That makes a real time difference in seconds considering the onslaught of bullets and arrows from a new direction.

Pretty hard for an uncontrolled retreat to deal with all that, plus the fact that the entire area of the hi ground the battle was on wasn’t what one would hope defensively.

Osky

Interesting thread. I’ve sometimes wondered how well the Indians could shoot.

My guess is that the Indians had less access to gunpowder, ammo, gun cleaning supplies, or smiths so they probably didn’t spend as much time shooting outside of hunting. That’s just an assumption. Maybe they could afford to easily trade for gunpowder or ammo. At any rate many of them would have handled a rifle constantly and probably fired at least a few shots daily I would think.

Another factor for plains Indians might be wanting to fly under the radar and not wanting to be heard doing a lot of extended shooting if they didn’t have to. It would seem like the whites from settled areas back East, the South or even relatively settled areas on the plains would be able to afford more ammo for recreational shooting and would have the time to do it when not farming and without fear of being located by enemy combatants.

By the end of the frontier days a lot of the men moving West had fought in the Civil War and had grown up in the South so I would think that a lot of them had considerable trigger time.

I don’t know how much if any of that played a role in how well the various players on the plains could generally shoot it’s just guessing on my part.

“Like water swirling around a stone”
It was simply overwhelming numbers, and every minute there were less solders to fight back and “their shots quit coming”.

From my reading on this subject, I think most historians are saying that about half of the Sioux and Cheyenne had firearms of some type.
Everything from old muzzleloaded trade guns to modern Henry’s and Winchesters, and revolvers.
Some were no doubt very good shots, but I doubt the majority got much trigger time.
Remember the orderly laughing at the lousy Indians shooting on the withdrawal from Weir Point.
Reon

Knowing hard it starts becoming to ram a patched ball down my flintlock after the second shot a smooth bore sounds appealing to me too

Most original rifles did have coned bores to facilitate loading. And, you might be surprised just how well your rifle shoots w/o a patch or with just a wad to hold ball in place.

Good info 👍

Thanks for posting that link to Guns magazine. I just ordered a 7mm Mauser from Golden State and an anti-tank rifle from Hunters Lodge. Hope they still have them in stock.

The year before the LBH. The seventh Calvary had been issued 15 rounds each trooper for target practice.

Custer divided his forces 15 miles from the village.

Benteen was sent on a “ wild goose chase” as Windolph later states. He had 3 company’s DH& K 110 troopers no scouts. ( just over 19 % of the force). He finally abandoned his mission and flanked his troop towards Custers trail.

Lt. McDougall had B company{ (127 troop and 7 scouts) 21.5 % of the force}. This group brought the pack train and guarded it. Only 18 of the mules were reported to have had any actual packing experience before the expedition. Out of the 140 mules that started 97 were left. They stayed 1/2 an hour back and used the scouts to attempt to maintain visibility. This pack train was struggling to complete its mission.

Reno had 140 men . Companies A,G,M. He also had 35 scouts. ( 23.4 % of the force)

Custer had 213 men ( 5 companies C,E,F,I,L ) and 8 scouts. (35.6% of the force)

When Reno got to the river the horses were allowed to drink. They were extremely thirsty and gorged on the cold water. ( The effects of this massive water intake affected the horse’s ability to “ charge!”.) The charge spread out, many horses fell back. During the charge several women and children were killed. Deeds, a young Santa arc youth was perhaps the first. Cheif gall lost two squaws and several children.

Then Reno approached the camp. The scouts failed to disperse the Indians pony herd, and one of every 4 trooper held the horses while the other 3 formed a skirmish line. That gave Reno about 95 carbines. ( should have been 105?) But some had fallen out of the charge, or failed to stop……running into the hostile camp.The line was about 130 yards wide. The valley was 800 yards wide in areas. They deployed civil war tactics ( not actually aiming at targets) most bullets whizzed over the Indians. The bullets would smash into the tops of the tipi poles. The amount of dust riled up decreased visibility to under 50 feet in places. Lt. Varnum later stated that many troopers were “ shooting right up in the air.” Lt . Varnum estimated 400 - 500 Indians approaching.The village was perhaps 400 yards away.

The skirmish line was failing, the Indians were closing in. Reno could see Custer waving his hat…….Custer was over 2 miles away! He was not approaching…..but rather riding further away. Custer was heading to what he believed to be an easy way into camp. ( Weir point). It was a dead end. Reno was under the assumption That Custer would have been engaged by now. Reno was supposed to be the anvil, Custer the hammer. But the hammer was easily 40 minutes away and riding further away!

Reno retracted into some timber for cover, the Indians began starting fires, finally Reno had a frantic retreat.

He chose to retreat towards the last place he saw Custer. However the banks of the big horn was not conducive to crossing there. Many of his troop perished retreating. Out of 140 men 13 were wounded, 57 were missing. They had formed the skirmish line at about 1515…,..were retreated to Reno hill at 1610.

American horse, an Oglala Lakota stated ‘ was like chasing buffalo, a grand chase’ ‘ The Indians kept killing soldiers right along.’ One Indian stated he didn’t remember any fire by the soldiers upon their retreat. Many soldiers were tomahawked in the river.

Custer released his scouts and sent at least one message back. But I don’t really have an opinion how exactly he met his demise. Perhaps he believed he was not detected and rode into a trap.

But I believe that they sorely missed their sabers, and should have kept their horses/mules in better shape. This would have provided more ammunition, and the ability to use more Calvary maneuvers .Lack of sabers emboldened the enemy and limited the soldiers ability to attack on horseback and defend themselves. When using skirmish lines they should have been trained to apply direct fire.

Certainly Benteen had a valid question to Custer “ Shouldn’t we keep the command together?” When Custer decided to split up 15 miles from the enemy.

.
One of the factors driving Custer's decisions at LBH was very likely his success at the Battle of Washita River.
687 troopers vs. perhaps 1800 warriors. Washita happened in cold weather, surprise was in favor of the troopers and by reports, the Indians didn't or couldn't get deployed in strength.

So at LBH, Custer had worse odds (numbers), surprise was lost and the Indians were able to counter-attack more efficiently, by reports.
Then factor in the poor terrain in which to form a good defense.

Seems like Washita was an anomaly and not an event that future planning should be based on.
Although the capturing of non-combatants was one element that might have worked at LBH but so many other factors stood in the way of accomplishing that at LBH.

It was Lt Edgerly who was having trouble getting mounted on a shying horse. Sanders, his orderly was grinning at him, later he told Edgerly he couldn’t help but laugh as the Indians repeatedly missed from 20’paces!
Custer hadn’t planned on attacking the 25th.
His original plan was to close the distance and reconnoiter the village, giving the men and horses time to rest up and hit them first thing after daylight on the 26th.
But he was afraid he’d been discovered by the Sioux and rushed the assault, fearing they’d all run off.
Actually we now know that the Sioux and Cheyenne had been monitoring both the Dakota Column and Gibbon’s Montana column all along from the get go!
Reon

I thought I read that Custer could have taken repeating riffles. But choose not to. The Indians did have some ?

Some cavalry members had repeaters that were privately owned, but for the most part everyone had the 1873 Springfield.
As I said in an earlier post, it’s estimated that about half the Indians had firearms of one type or another.
By the second day of the siege on Reno Hill, most commanders had restricted firing to only the best marksmen. They were trying to conserve ammo.
Reon

The long s ⟨ſ⟩ uſage will make for intereſting reading. . . .

An account of the remarkable occurrences in the life and travels of Colonel James Smith (Late a citizen of Bourbon County, Kentucky) : during his captivity with the Indians, in the years 1755,'56, '57, '58, & '59

https://ia804705.us.archive.org/9/items/accountofremarka00smit/accountofremarka00smit.pdf

Both Reno, Benteen and much of the 7th were raging alcoholics. If Custer had his Michigan Wolverines he may have won.

This would have changed the outcome considerably.




The forensics of the battlefield suggest the Indians had around 300 firearms, not all of which were repeating rifles. The misconception of repeaters giving the Indians an advantage is over emphasized. The 45-55 Cavalry carbines were chosen over repeating rifles for several reasons. In a skirmish line, even as a single shot, the firing was fierce enough to overcome the lack of a repeater. The 45-55 was also a much longer range and lethal round than a Henry or 1866 Winchester had with a 44 Rimfire cartridge. The 405 grain slug was also capable of putting down a horse, where a 44 Rimfire was not. (Keogh’s horse, Comanche, sustained and survived with around 11 small arms wounds) Although there were some copper cases that did stick in the hot chambers of the Springfield carbines, it was not nearly the failure rate most people think existed.

Had the 45-55 been so inferior, Reno and Benteen wouldn’t have been able to protect their defensive site against the same mass of Indians that defeated Custer and sent Reno to the hilltop.

Sabers were left and would have little effect on the Indians as there was little or no hand to hand or horse to horse combat that a Sabre would have been effective. Troopers were issued 60 rounds of carbine ammunition and 24 rounds of revolver ammunition on their horse. In a fire fight like the LBH, that amount of ammunition wouldn’t last long, hence Custer’s urgency to get Benteen and packs to be brought in support.


There was no choice made by Custer to take the 45-55 carbines to the Little Bighorn. Those guns were issued by the Army. Custer did have repeating Spencers during the Civil War with the Michigan Wolverines.

What do you think was the main reason for the overwhelming defeat of the 7th ?

I believe you need to blame the Indians, not Custer.

All the armchair quarterbacks blame Custer’s arrogance, lack of reconnaissance, dividing his force, not waiting until the 26th, not taking sabres or Gatling guns, not listening to his scouts, and various other reasons that they want to throw at Custer.

All those points have been thoroughly discussed and few will put them into the context of what happened and how any or all of the points are valid.

I think Custer is a misunderstood individual with incredible cavalry skills and he showed it time after time during the Civil War. He also had more contact and conflicts with Indians than LBH and Washita.

This is where most detractors start to fall apart, as they have little understanding of the plains Indian wars in the 19th century. Custer was all over the West, Kansas, Texas and Oklahoma with the 7th Cavalry for many years after the Civil War.

He led expeditions into the Black Hills and along the Yellowstone when they were surveying for the railroad. He had more than couple conflicts or just contact with plains Indians and was one of their biggest allies as he testified against President Grant’s brother and Secretary of War William Belknap and how they mishandled Indian affairs and kickbacks from trading posts on the frontier.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trader_post_scandal

When Custer, with all his experience and background, made his decision to attack the village as he did, he wasn’t intentionally risking all of his command to become victims of the Indians. Everyone commenting on how he was wrong, is using post battle views of the entire engagement and making 21st century commentary with little understanding of all the other factors that were in place in 1876.

Reno’s attack on the village was to make the Indians focus on that attack, to allow Custer to continue down the river to strike the village from the east and capture non combatants and control the Indians and the battlefield. Counting on Reno to do that and expecting a much quicker response from Benteen, Custer certainly figured he could be victorious.

Reno didn’t, Benteen didn’t and 1500 warriors overwhelmed Custer and drove Reno to the bluffs to escape total annihilation. The battlefield covers nearly 5 miles from one end to the other and 660 men spread out on unfamiliar terrain that was not defensible, was too much to control.

A gathering of this size was never seen before or since. Reservation agents indicated there were less Indians off the reservations than there actually were, leading to poor intelligence in regards to how many Indians could possibly be off reservations. Seeing the location of the village from the Crows Nest early on June 25, was only a view of the Indian ponies in the plains beyond the village, not the village itself.

It is continually said that his scouts told him that too many Indians were on the river and Custer attacked anyhow. Analyzing the existence of the Indians, the fact that Custer had been discovered by the Indians and that the urgency to strike the village before they could scatter, made Custer realize he was to attack sooner than later.

You also have to realize, Benteen thought he had been sent on an oblique to keep him from participating in the battle and keep him from getting any glory of the win. This tells you that even Benteen, who had stated earlier to keep the command intact, still figured Custer was capable of a victorious battle even with smaller numbers.

At the end of the day, Custer and his immediate command were dead, the remaining 7th cavalry was in shock and soon enough America learned that one of most successful Civil War heroes had died at the hands of plains Indians. Today, many people criticize Custer, with little understanding of the time and place he occupied in American history. Reno never recovered from his poor image as a cavalry officer, was dismissed from the Army with a less than honorable discharge and died a broken man. His family played the 20th century tactics of revisionist historians and had his discharge posthumously changed to honorable.

Many the accounts at Reno’s Court Of Inquiry were coerced and made to favor the survivors of the battle and in light of Custer not making it to that court, he became the goat and got blamed for how everything failed.

To answer the original question, there were too many Indians..

1) He misjudged the enemy's combat power.
2) As the enemy combat power was brought to bear, he was out-maneuvered.

Just finished up with Donavan’s “Terrible Glory” again. Probably the 5th or 6th time I’ve read it.
It’s the book that introduced me to the General and LBH probably 15 years ago.
I said before, I grew up in the 70s and 80s, and I had a pretty negative view of Custer and his place in history.
As often happens in American history for me, the book piqued my interest, and I wanted to learn more. After all, it’s a fascinating story😀!
Since then I e read everything I could get my hands on, and the more I read, the more I came to admire the General and realize that it wasn’t just the redskins that slew him, but his own officers under and above him that sacrificed him, his men, and his reputation in order to save their own hides!!!🤬
You’re all welcome to your own opinions. That’s one of the many reasons I love being an American. It’s a basic American right to form an opinion on something, even if you don’t know WTF you’re talking about!😀
If However, you wish to inform yourself, and possibly gain another hero to admire, Donavan’s a great place to start, and I’m sure many of us could recommend dozens of other!
Reon

Nathaniel Philbrick wrote “Last Stand” at the same Tim Donovan wrote his book. Both well researched and documented. As earlier stated, all these books are books written after reading other Books.

William Graham wrote “Custer Myth” in the 1920’s. Graham actually conversed a lot with Benteen, years after the battle. He also interviewed many survivors and put together one of the best books you can find about Custer and the battle.

There are hundreds of Custer related books out there it is best to find and stick with the knowledgeable authors. Mike Donahue who is a battlefield interpreter, also wrote a book worth reading and is considered the best authority on the battle today. “Where The Rivers Ran Red”

https://laststand.com/products/where-the-rivers-ran-red

And be sure to ignore what the Indians said.

Osky

Yeah, I know we’ve traveled this road many times over the years!😀 I have enjoyed each trip, because I’ve found some great guides on the fire, and each trip teaches me more!
I read Philbrick and Connell many times as well and quite a few others. Also read some of the things about the Reno Inquiry too. It was a whitewash, and The General got massacred again.😟
Like I said, I got fascinated with Custer and The Alamo story as well.
I find the whole sordid soap opera of what happened and what should’ve happened, all the loose threads that beg a person to start tugging!😀
I got to Gettysburg and Antietam a lot, and I know the history well. Both places haunt me, and both my spouses said they thought maybe I died there! The passion I have for those places always comes to the surface!
I really need to get back to Montana and San Antonio so I can maybe die there as well!😀
Reon

Shrapnel: Don’t you think Custer should have known that Reno wasn’t the best choice he had for such a crucial assignment? Why would he have not given that job to Benteen or Tom Custer. The failure of Reno’s diversionary attack allowed the Indians free rein to concentrate on Custer which is exactly what Reno was to prevent.

Those pictured bluffs are where the Crow scouts located the Sioux and are to the southeast of "Lone tepee" marked on Camp's map? Interesting seeing what things actually look like compared to a map.

I was actually thinking about this the other day. The only reason I could think for not sending benteen to attack was that would leave Reno to take the scout to the southwest. Reno had a similar mission earlier along the rosebud, and didn't do too well. Maybe Custer trusted him more with the attack.

There are 2 ways to look at Indian testimonials: they lied, or they told the truth.

Many Indian eyewitness accounts have been analyzed and found to be valuable. Some are totally unreliable. Sitting Bull was no fan of whites or their encroachment on Indian territory. Few people are aware of the first known encounter with the cavalry protecting the survey party along the Yellowstone.

A cavalry captain was on the Yellowstone with his troops assigned to protect the survey party and the Indians tried to lure him into an ambush. Knowing better, he was not deceived and ended up in a parlay with Sitting Bull and his Sioux warriors. Sitting Bull stood up in the middle of the meeting, announced that he represented the 7 Sioux tribes and he was declaring war on the United States.

How he ever overcame his distaste for whites enough to become part of Buffalo Bill’s Wild West show, I will never never understand.

There were plenty Indian survivors who have been asked and quoted about their involvement on the Little Bighorn and their accounts have helped build a fairly decent concept of how the battle proceeded.

However, you need to be cautious around the 4 Aces Saloon in Hardin, as most of those Indians lie a lot…

Here is a view from the top of those bluffs, looking back toward the Crow’s Nest and down on Reno Creek. The tree line in the center of the picture that continues from left to right is Reno creek, where Custer sent Reno to follow the fleeing Indians toward the Little Bighorn. There is a knoll in the right center of the picture where Custer’s scout, Girrard was when he saw the band of about 18-20 Indians that took off toward the Little Bighorn. In my view, I see this as the very beginning of the “Last Stand..

Finding a senior officer you could count on, was not in the cards. Custer’s closest allies went with him as they were very close as friends and family. Custer, Reno and Benteen had no use for one another. Benteen had already been sent on the oblique when Custer and Reno came down the Middle Fork of Reno Creek where they came upon the Lone Teepee and the 18-20 Indians that were hanging around nearby.

Custer could have sent Reno on the scout, but like him or not, I’m sure Custer knew Benteen was a truly capable cavalry officer. I’m also sure Custer figured on Benteen to return much sooner than he did.

Being separated by miles in unfamiliar territory, makes for a recipe for disaster when the territory is full of 100’s of Indian warriors…

Seems like the Comanches were a whole diff’rent ballgame compared to their more impoverished relatives up north. Abundant buffalo and horses beyond measure.

Relevant to command and control consider Buffalo Hump’s (whose name IIRC actually translated to “constant erection”) organization of the Great Comanche Raid of August 1840. Somewhere around 500 Comanche and Kiowa warriors accompanied by hundreds of women and youths launched a lighting strike into settled Texas.

Passing by all else they hit Victoria and then the coastal port of Linnville, which probably not coincidentally were respectively the seat of government and the location of the arsenal of the Mexican Federalist Government in Exile.

The reaction of the Texians was somewhat muted on account of most members of the Texian army in San Antonio had left to go and fight in the cause of the short-lived Republic of the Rio Grande.

The Indians sacked and burned Linnville (IIRC $300,000 worth of goods and 3,000 horses and mules between Victoria and Linnville).
Slowed down by their loot, they ran into 100+armed Texians at the Battle of Plum Creek.

The Texians termed Plum Creek a victory tho they made the mistake of dismounting to fight allowing the great majority of the Indian formation to pass by while screened by a rear guard. Most of the uncertain number of Comanche casualties were reportedly inflicted by a party of Tonkawas on foot, who ran 25 miles overnight to join the fight.

But, to the main point, a force of American or European cavalry would be hard-pressed to match the speed and cohesion of that raid.

In the following decade the Comanches would launch mass raids into Mexico, overwintering there in large camps while despoiling and depopulating much of Northern Mexico.

Doom was on the horizon tho, in the form of the Cholera epidemic of the winter of ‘49/‘50 which wiped out an estimated half the tribe (said cholera seeded across the plains by the ‘49er gold rush) followed by a devastating drought in the 1850’s that drove even Buffalo Hump to accept a reservation.

Another thing to consider is that the cavalry was fighting by orders and Indians were fighting for their lives…

Being separated by miles in unfamiliar territory, is a recipe for disaster.

Custers Scouts claimed many warriors ahead.

Custer chose to separate 15 miles before the hostile encampent.

He commanded a charge 2 miles before seeing the enemy. He released his scout’s before the charge. He also went sans sabers. Probably because the mules were so far behind.

He hadn’t properly fed or watered his horses/ mules for over 48 hours.
It was very dry, hot, and many Indian ponies had just been through, grazing off what little there was.

His troop took a whopping 15 shots of practice each , the year before they embarked.

He failed to support Reno’s attack.

Yet he was without error in his decisions. He was golden.

Sitting Bulls Vision showed the soldiers riding into camp upside down.

Guess it was just an unlucky deal for the General.


The rest of the remaining troop was able to hold ‘em off ok the next few days. When they stuck together and had their mule train.

That's a great picture of the area! There was a map in Camp's reference file that has "Indians watching Custer's men" marked on it, which I assume is the band of Indians to which you are referring.

Kanipe's correspondence with Camp:

1.--Trumpeter Martin says that <some time> after Gen. Custer separated from Reno, up
by the burning tepee, he halted his five troops about five minutes
and watered his horses. He says Custer then cautioned his men not
to permit the horses to drink too much, as there was much marching
ahead. I do not know where this could be unless it was at the ravi<ne>
<that> we crossed when on the way to Reno hill, where I got out of the wagon
and went ahead to see where we could drive across, as you will rem-
ember. While I was hunting a place to cross you and the driver went
ahead with the team and drove over all right. I guess you will re-
member the place <that> I mean. It was about half way between the place
where Curley showed us the location of the lone tepee and Reno hill. <I>
noticed that there had been water there earlier in the season.
Now if Custer watered horses there you were with him, and I
wish you could tell me whether you remember watering at that place.
If not, where did Custer last water his horses before you left him?

1ST QUESTION: I remember the place where you and Curly and I crossed
the ravine very well. Custer did not stop to water any horses at this
ravine. As you will remember, I told you that we saw Indians on the
bluff which caused Custer to turn to the right with his five compa-
nies. I do not remember of seeing any water in that ravine the day
that Custer and his five companies crossed it on the 25th day of
June 1876. The five companies were moving at a trot to the top of
the bluff. The last place and the only place that the horses were
watered that morning was some distance above the burning tepee where
we crossed Benteen's Creek the last time, which put us on the side
with the burning tepee.

Of course, neither Custer or Benteen would water horses when they are in a hurry to get shot to pieces by some Indians.


The first picture is Reno Creek on June 25, 2023. The anniversary of the battle, during runoff in June and this is what Custer had to deal with. There is plenty references to watering horses at the morass and having trouble crossing Reno Creek.

The second picture is the Little Bighorn River on the same day last June. It was high and fast, much as it would have been in 1876. This is where Reno crossed to seek cover on top of the bluffs. Crossing that river under those conditions wasn’t an easy endeavor and of course no horses got any water there either because it was more important to get to the top of the hill than see to any horses…

I thought it was the Lakota who were invading the Crow; thus, the Crow teamed up with Custer to oust the Lakota (simplified version).

The Crow did inhabit the Black Hills until the Sioux forced the Crow from the Black Hills because the Sioux were forced out of their homeland due to invasion. That is why the Crow hated the Sioux and scouted for Custer.

Of course you have the PC revisionist historians that are upset at the United States for breaking the Laramie treaty of 1868 and taking back the Black Hills from the Sioux once gold was discovered there.

A constant struggle for real estate is what created so much division in America and if you look at who should have been compensated for that land grab, it should have been the Crow.

Who knows what tribe was there before the Crow…

I have been to LBH in 2021 and got to explore the battlefield and talk to the Indian who hung out at the TeePee sales/gift shop/diner. It was very interesting to see the terrain and distances involved. Still, what helps me most to understand the battle was this youtube video below.

Here is an interesting video which features a cavalryman who was at the Little Big Horn battlefield the day AFTER the fight.



L.W.

I said before, history is the same on every continent and in every century.
The strong will take what they want from the weak. Usually it’s land and resources, but not always. Sometimes it’s just pure greed and hatred.
The only way to hold on to what you got, is to be prepared to defend what you got.
Certain freedoms are about all we Americans have left. Our wealth and resources are being stripped from us.
Reon

Another interesting video about the officers in Custer’s battalion who were killed that day.
Custer’s Officers
To be continued…

Wanted to add this link.
Lt Henry Harrington
Harrington was in command of Company C. That was brother Tom’s command, but he was serving on the Generals staff, so it fell to Harrington.
Years after the battle, a set of remains was found a good distance away from Last Stand Hill.
The did a facial reconstruction from the skull, and concluded that it was Lt Harrington’s remains.
I have read this book, and it’s pretty convincing.
Just wondering if Shrapnel is aware of this, and ask his opinion.
Reon

.
Extensive and detailed battlefield tour 1-1/2 hours
Easy to listen to narrator

After I closed out Donovan, I waded back into Philbrick’s “Last Stand.
As I said, I’m known to reread a lot of my books because I always pick up information that I missed before. These two and Connell on LBH especially, several others.
I don’t watch TV, I read!😀
Anyway, i mentioned before how both Washita and LBH came about due to bad reconnaissance, or no reconnaissance at all.
Lieutenant Godfrey was in the 7th Cavalry at both battles, and many more besides. He eventually attained the rank of general through his service, most of it fighting against Indians.
Godfrey is quoted as to doing reconnaissance against an Indian village that it was nearly impossible to come up with good intel for the simple reason that if you didn’t strike immediately at a village, they were likely to scatter, and you’d end up with an empty sack. Even in wintertime, the natives, if given a heard start, were likely to leave a cavalry unit in the dust.
Custer learned this the hard way when pursuing the Cheyenne in Kansas under General WS Hancock.
Also, remind yourself that the Indians were fully aware of the location of all the Army units maneuvering against them, and they also knew where The Far West was at at any given time.
Godfrey never faulted Custer to my knowledge for anything that I can recall.
Sure, the officers banded together to whitewash the Reno inquiry. I guess for the integrity of the Regiment but if any of the surviving officers ever criticized Custer directly, I don’t recall reading about it.
I know Benteen always found some kind of fault in everything Custer ever did, but he comes across to me as very cantankerous, vindictive , and spiteful towards most everyone he served under.
It must be pure hell to be better at everything you do, and constantly serving under somebody who is obviously inferior to you!😀
Reon

Got this from Facebook.
I REMEMBER well. None of us who were there could forget. I was almost eighteen that summer. Never before or since that time did my people gather in such great numbers. Our camp on the Greasy Grass [Little Bighorn] stretched four miles along the river -- six great camp circles, each a half mile across, with thousands of Lakota fighting men and their families.
In that long-ago time none of my people knew more than a thousand numbers. We believed no honest man needed to know more than that many. There was my own tribe, the Miniconjou. There were our cousins, the Hunkpapa, the Sans Arc, the Two Kettles, the Sihasapa [Blackfoot Sioux], the Brulé, and the Oglala -- all our Seven Council Fires. There were many of our eastern relatives, too -- the Yankton and the Santee. And our kinsmen from the north were there -- the Yanktonai and the Assiniboin. Our friends and allies the Cheyenne were there in force, and with them were smaller bands of Arapaho and Gros Ventre. It was a great village and we had great leaders.
Hump, Fast Bull, and High Backbone led my tribe. Crazy Horse headed the Oglala. lnkpaduta [Scarlet Tip] led the Santee. Lame White Man and Ice Bear led the Cheyenne. But the greatest leader of all was the chief of the Hunkpapa -- Sitting Bull. As long as we were all camped together, we looked on him as head chief. We all rallied around him because he stood for our old way of life and the freedom we had always known. We were not there to make war, but, if need be, we were ready to fight for our sacred rights. Since the white man's government had promised our leaders that we could wander and hunt in our old territory as long as the grass should grow, we did not believe the white soldiers had any business in our hunting grounds. Vet they came to attack us anyway.
I slept late the morning of the fight. The day before, I had been hunting buffalo and I had to ride far to find the herds because there were so many people in the valley. I came back with meat, but I was very tired. So when I got up, the camp women were already starting out to dig for wild turnips. Two of my uncles had left early for another buffalo hunt. Only my grandmother and a third uncle were in the tepee, and the sun was high overhead and hot. I walked to the river to take a cool swim, then got hungry and returned to the tepee at dinner time [noon].
"When you finish eating," my uncle said, "go to our horses. Something might happen today. I feel it in the air."
I hurried to Muskrat Creek and joined my younger brother, who was herding the family horses. By the time I reached the herd, I heard shouting in the village. People were yelling that white soldiers were riding toward the camp.
Iron HaiI climbed Black Butte for a look around the country. I saw a long column of soldiers coming and a large party of Hunkpapa warriors, led by Sitting Bull's nephew, One Bull, riding out to meet them. I could see One Bull's hand raised in the peace sign to show the soldiers that our leaders only wanted to talk them into going away and leaving us alone. But all at once the soldiers spread out for attack and began to fire, and the fight was on. I caught my favorite war pony, a small buckskin mustang I called Sung Zi Ciscila [Little Yellow Horse] and raced him back to camp to get ready for battle.
I had no time to paint Zi Ciscila properly for making war, just a minute or so to braid his tail and to dab a few white hail spots of paint on my own forehead for protection before I galloped out on the little buckskin to help defend the camp. I met four other Lakotas riding fast. Three were veteran fighters, armed with rifles; the other was young like me and carried a bow and arrows as I did. One of the veterans went down. I saw my chance to act bravely and filled the gap. We all turned when we heard shooting at the far side of the village nearest the Miniconjou camp circle and rode fast to meet this new danger. I could see swirls of dust and hear shooting on the hills and bluffs across the river. Hundreds of other warriors joined us as we splashed across the ford near our camp and raced up the hills to charge into the thickest of the fighting.
This new battle was a turmoil of dust and warriors and soldiers, with bullets whining and arrows hissing all around. Sometimes a bugle would sound and the shooting would get louder. Some of the soldiers were firing pistols at close range. Our knives and war clubs flashed in the sun. I could hear bullets whiz past my ears. But I kept going and shouting, "It's a good day to die!" so that everyone who heard would know I was not afraid of being killed in battle.
Then a Lakota named Spotted Rabbit rode unarmed among us, calling out a challenge to all the warriors to join him. He shouted, "Let's take their leader alive!" I had no thought of what we would do with this leader once we caught him; it was a daring feat that required more courage and much more skill than killing him. I dug my heels into my pony's flanks to urge him on faster to take part in the capture.
A tall white man in buckskins kept shouting; at the soldiers and looked to be their leader. Following Spotted Rabbit, I charged toward this leader in buckskins. We were almost on top of him when Spotted Rabbit's pony was shot from under him. Zi Ciscila shied to one side, and it was too late.
Miniconjou named Charging Hawk rushed in and shot the leader at close range. In a little while all the soldiers were dead. The battle was over.
The soldier chief we had tried to capture lay on the ground with the reins of his horse's bridle tied to his wrist. It was a fine animal, a blaze-faced sorrel with four white stockings. A Santee named Walks-Under-the-Ground took that [Custer's] horse. Then he told everyone that the leader lying there dead was Long Hair; so that was the first I knew who we had been fighting. I thought it was a strange name for a soldier chief who had his hair cut short. [Note: Lazy White Bull said the Santee who got Custer's horse was named Sound the Ground as He Walks which is also sometimes translated as Noisy Walking.]
Our attempt to save Long Hair's life had failed. But we all felt good about our victory over the soldiers and celebrated with a big scalp dance. But our triumph was hollow. A winter or so later more soldiers came to round us up on reservations. There were too many of them to fight now. We were split up into bands and no longer felt strong. At last we were ready for peace and believed we would have no more trouble.
Putinhin aka WasuMaza. Dewey Beard.

Found the video that lead me to the book I mentioned.
Lt Henry Harrington
I did want to get Shrapnel’s opinion on this. I know he’s got much more knowledge and experience with this than I do.
Reon

If this highlighted quote from the account of this Indian is suggesting that this leader is Custer, it is erroneous. Custer was not wearing his buckskin jacket at the time of the battle. If it is an account of someone in buckskin that resembles Custer, I can’t say, but as it is written it is inferring that it is Custer.

This could have absolutely no association to a personal contact with Custer, but it seems so. This is one of the reasons that so much speculation has been submitted by witnesses as well as others reading of such testimonials and how easily the truth can be polluted.

It is also evident by different accounts of individuals here, how much they may have studied the battle. Reconnaissance is a topic often brought up showing lack of leadership when referring to Custer. Not a single person here has any experience in dealing with the Indian wars on the Western Frontier. Custer had more encounters with plains Indians than just the Washita and Little Bighorn.

From the Crows nest in the Wolf Mountains, Custer, through borrowed binoculars was shown that there were thousands of ponies on the prairie to the west of the Little Bighorn river, which was out of sight from that viewpoint. His scouts told him that there were superior numbers of Indians in that camp and to resist making any attack on that camp. Custer did meet with his officers that morning to formulate a plan of attack. Again it was suggested to keep the command together, but Custer sent Benteen on an oblique to the South and west to determine if there were any Indians scattering to escape the pursuit of the cavalry. This would be considered reconnaissance.

At this point, many become critical, as it is easy to say this was a bad move in light of what happened later that day. Custer had no opportunity to second guess the situation after the fact, because no one at this juncture in any conflict has that ability to do so.

Running into a small band of Indians at the site of the lone teepee, is also a point of determination of what course of action you take, and at some point becomes reconnaissance in the field. At this point Custer is still assuming Benteen will return to bolster the battalion to remain as cohesive as it can in an attempt to attack an Indian village and capture the non combatants to gain control of the Indian encampment.

Many other overlooked instances of being in command and what choices you make, and how they are made in regard to your personal experiences and training, which cause you to weigh circumstances that won’t always be the same from one individual to another.

Lt. Godfrey and General Nelson A. Miles, both seasoned Indian wars leaders, were nowhere near as critical of Custer as many of the readers and writers have been over the years, and I tend to think they are much more correct in their assessment of Custer and the Little Bighorn…

Thanks Shrap.

Reports say that Custer didn't wait for Benteen to return nor did he hold up and support Reno.
From what has been already told, Custer's decisions that day were driven by a couple of things.

1) He knew that his force was discovered and that he had lost the element of surprise.
The longer it took to attack the village, the more prepared the warriors would be.
2) From reports, Custer was obsessed with the Indians being able to break down into smaller groups and dispersing.
He had to press on with the attack without any delay in order to capture the entire encampment.

Common sense would dictate that if Custer knew the combat power he was facing that day, he would have done things differently.
How could he have known the combat power of the enemy ? Better reconnaissance ?

Common sense really doesn’t dictate anything after the fact. It is paramount to understand what reconnaissance is and was on the frontier under a mobile cavalry battalion. The ability to send scouts around the village undetected in advance of a march on the village under the circumstances you cite and were in effect at that battle and time in history, don’t provide the opportunity to get the same information you would get from a drone today…

Certainly, common sense can dictate either before or after depending on how you look at it.

Did not Custer's Indian scouts caution him about the numbers of warriors in the village ?

I read one report that stated that "US Army intelligence" estimated that the number of braves under Sitting Bull was 800.
Maybe that's what Custer was going with ?

Some things we will never know.

As to Custer listening to his scouts and making his command decisions are why the Army puts officers in charge of troops and not scouts.

The intelligence of the day suggested that weren’t anywhere near as many Indians off the reservation as there were assembled on the Little Bighorn in June of 1876.

The United States government had declared that any Indians not on their respective reservations by January 31, 1876 would be considered hostile and dealt with accordingly. Custer, under orders from General Alfred Terry, was part of an organized effort to deal with a whole lot less Indians than had been anticipated when they left the Far West, just a few days earlier.

That's a different subject, commanding troops.
Reports indicate that Custer did not heed his scout's warnings of many warriors in the village and that he will travel a way he has never gone if he attacks that village.

Custer rode for several miles along the bluff as he traveled to the north end of the village.
Now, he had firsthand knowledge that this was a huge encampment.
Fair to say that any previous reports of enemy strength should have been thrown out the window.
Don't you agree ?

We know that now.

Your point?

A timely piece via RealClearHistory…

The Crows are perhaps the best scouts on the continent and the most venturesome.

https://sheridanmedia.com/news/157532/history-custers-crow-scouts-at-the-battle-of-little-big-horn/

From most of my reading, Curly left Custer’s battalion long before they went down the valley after splitting with Reno.
But he made a good name for himself, and no one can say for sure how much, exactly, he witnessed.
Interesting reading. Thanks!
Reon

You never hear much about the Crow Scouts and how the situation was for them, pretty much written out of the script, even though Crows and Shoshones played a major part in the Rosebud fight.

Interesting in that 1877 newspaper article how they were regarded at the time.

Did Curly or other Crow scouts have relatives in the Lakota camp? Sounds plausible. Were there things going on between the Indians that didn’t make into written accounts? I’d guess that was a certainty.

Relatives in the Lakota camp? Only real connections I know of are covered in the books I’ve read.
Toppa my head, Isaha Dorman, Custer’s black interpretator/guide was married to a Lakota woman, the Sioux knew him pretty well.
Bloody Knife was raised as a Sioux, he moved with his mother back to the Ree Camp near Fort Buford on the Missouri in North Dakota. He and Gall, probably some others had a sorta blood feud between them.
If there were others, they’ve slipped my mind.
Shrapnel, in LBH and Custer probably knows way more than me.
As far as Montana goes, I rely on him much like I do you and Kaywoodie for Texas!😀
The Crow were mortal enemies of the Sioux. You remember a few decades back, the Sioux had forced them out of the Black Hills and LBH territory. It was rightfully theirs, which is why they sided with the Army.
Reon

Custard's famous last words "LOOK AT ALL THEM [bleep] INDIANS".. the rest is history 😁

I think that is highly unlikely. Mitch Boyer was of mixed Sioux ancestry, Curley was a young man at the time of the battle and lived around that area until his death in 1923. Another scout, Thomas LaForge was with Gibbon at the time of the battle, and it is my recollection that he was supposed to be a scout with Custer, but due to ailment or injury, was with Gibbons command. He was one of the first to come into contact with Curley when Curley told of the annihilation of Custer’s command.

A good friend of mine has an extensive collection of leather tack and saddles. He was showing me a set of chaps that belonged to Curley when he was still cowboying in that area into the early 20th century.

Interestingly enough, I bought a Filson vest from a direct descendant of Thomas LaForge just a few years ago, when we were discussing the Custer battle. His name was LaForge and he told me his Great grandfather was Thomas LaForge.

It is interesting to find little nuggets of history as you continue through ordinary life among un-ordinary people…

Is he associated the Laforge in North Dakota?
We visited Laforge in ‘17 on our way to Culbertson MT. Interesting place, I wish I’d have had time to look around more.
I believe Peter Thompson of Company C lived out his days there.
Reon