GM settled

Looks like Chrysler is settling


UAW flexed its muscles, gotta love solidarity!

Uh, I think the UAW settled, too. Just sayin'...


yeah, solidarity, whatever...

That's why Chrysler's labor cost is $75 an hour.

compromise

I believe that's what they call it.

Here's an article comparing the competing spins on the deal with GM:
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=13928

Labor costs are almost never a consideration with a company that competes directly with mostly Japanese owned companies. The Japanese have some of the highest standards of living in the world, high pay and great benefits. These things cost just as much money in Japan as they cost here. The companies are just more efficient in running the company because the top 1% of the executives are not sucking the company dry. Anybody that is anti-American labor is an idiot that does not have the right to complain when illegal immigrants bring crime and drugs into our country and our citizens have no jobs and resort to crime and drugs to feed themselves and their families. Everybody here that is not willing to pay more for something that is made in the USA is feeding into a loop. If there are no jobs here, there is no money to be spent.

That has to be one of the funniest things I've read. The only companies that don't care about labor costs are those that are looking to go out of business.

from USA Today:
The labor cost difference between the Detroit Three and the Japanese automakers amounts to $1,200 to $1,500 per vehicle, Harbour-Felax said.

Apprentice, you might want to study up on the old story about gooses and golden eggs.

Steve NO, you might want to study up on the effects of an economy with high unemployment rates and low incomes. Study up on third world countries. I am willing to pay $1500 more for a vehicle if it is made here. You are not able to see the long term. Third world countries export everything they make, because the population of that country cannot afford to buy the product. The car manufactures here have a surplus of vehicles from the previous model years because our people cannot afford them (5-7 year financing?) Our country was at its strongest financially when labor was majority Union. On old movies you can see the moms who stayed at home, raising the kids, nice house, well educated children because the mother was there to help them. Now, dad with 2 jobs, mother working, kids raising themselves, because you shop at Walmart and buy sweatshop labor goods.

look for a continued diminution of the UAW. Looks like they kept what they could for the current members, but as new ones come into the union, they get less............and less.........and less.
The UAW won't stop until all the American Auto manufactures are buried. Boy, that will show management, right?

Spoken like a true lawyer. You complain that these UAW workers making $75.00 an hour. How much is your fee for an hour's work? Probably a hell of a lot higher. An you aren't even doing the work, your paralegal is. At least these auto workers are honest hard working men and women. Unlike the low-life scumbag business that you are in. Its trash like you that gives all lawyers a bad name. I know several lawyers that were put through law school with money from union wages. Unlike you they are grateful for this. You run your mouth about labor unions and you have never did an honest day's work in your worthless life. Of course you don't know what SOLIDARITY means, its not a republican word. I bet you don't ask if a person is a union member before taking their money for a case do you? You are a worthless piece of [bleep]!!

You are a worthless piece of [bleep]!!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

That the first time you've ever heard that???

That's real 3rd. grade there Sir Issac Hayes.

The reason most folks resort to both mom and dad working is they expect a standard of living their folks didn't enjoy 40 years ago. Amazing how little one can get by on if all the extras are cut out. Anyone who thinks he should be able to support a family, pay a mortgage, car payments on a single income with a high school education has an extremely inflated view of his self worth.

The key to high wages are gaining the skills that make companies happy to pay you what you want. Having a group extort management to raise the wages of large percentage of the work force that doesn't deserve it is a key for failure.

Third world countries become first world countries by making money in exports. Study up on Japan.

Third world countries stay third world countries by their politicians steeling all the money, and their workers being too lazy to make a better life for themselves. Study up on Africa.

Wanna see what unionization does to the quality of a product? Take a look at American education and plot increase in union membership with declining student (and teacher!) test scores.

Wayne

Do you really think the standard of living has gone up, for the "average American" in a working class household in the past few decades? I'm not talking about you people as individuals, because, it seems like most responding are retired, or close to it, have made their money, and don't care about the future. America was strong in the era you are stuck in. Now we are 40 something in education globally and not in the best economic shape.

I don't fully understand your point but I can tell you that union membership is lower than its been in the last 50 years. Teachers in many school districts, especially smaller cities and townships are not union. I think it would be an unfair comparison to group all of them together.

Steve No,
Are you saying that the average production line worker at a Chrysler plant earns $75 per hour? Surely you must mean that when you average all Chrysler employees including CEO, upper management, etc., you get $75/hr.

Steve NO would be working there if it was $75 an hour, the rest of America would be waiting in line outside the gate, just in case somebody called in sick. They are unskilled idiots afterall that right? They don't deserve what they earn, right? Remember, management agreed to these conditions, in an era of weak labor, so aren't they kind of at fault for running these corporations into the ground. I mean 458 Lott was describing the average union man as having a high school education.

I believe this figure would probably include their insurance and other negotiated benefits in their package. Companies look at the entire cost for each worker not just their hourly wage.

When you compare what the typical household of today is vs 40 years ago in size and appliances/accessories as well as what's parked in the driveway, you betcha. The problem is young folks today are comparing the homes their parents retired in to what they think their first house should be. They never saw the little appartment their parents lived in while they scrimped and saved for years.

But the greatest advancement in the past 40 years has been medicine. How many diseases that were a death sentance or crippler are now commonly cured? Organ transplants, bypass surgery, cancer cures. 40 years ago you had any of those conditions and it was a question of how many months you had to live, or you were died in the hospital. And speaking of health advances, how about increases in safety in the work place?

I see great possibilities and opportunities for my kids, but I know the level of competition will also be higher.

Those that aren't getting ahead aren't willing to make the sacrifices and put in the effort to get there. It's always been that way. It's not that the opportunities are no longer there, it's the willingness to work hard that is so lacking today.

1gunner, I hear you on the lawyer thing, but the fact remains that unions will soon be a thing of the past. In terms of corruption you need to check and recheck the history books and the influence of unions. Every day, day after day unions are the cause of their own undoings. And if you look at how their power has diminished in recent years the rest is clear. It will all work out for the best though

You are right on the money 458Lott. Young folks sometimes want to run before they crawl. They are too impatient. Maybe some of it is our own fault because we want them to have it better than we did, so we spoil them. I remember having two paper routes for my spending money, collecting pop bottles and mowing lawns. There was no such thing as an alowance in my home. Coming up this way you do learn the value of a dollar.

Because SteveNO busted his keester in school, was awarded with good grades HAD to have had a very good SAT & LSAT scores, whether by scholarship or loans he busted his butt again during four years of college and three more of Law School, not to mention passing the BAR exam, that's why. And please EVERYONE can go to college in this country if they want to so don't even go there with the "underpriviliged" guff. So I take it a UAW Janitor at GM should earn a comparable salary? Face it some people can cross-examine in a court of law and some can screw in a dashboard, mow a lawn or ask "do you want fries with that". And some can fly and land jest off aircraft carriers...at night, kill people and break things We all have limitations. Remember, Allmen are NOT created equal. Just as John Holmes or Albert Einstein....

Unless of course you are a democrap er socialist and want to take from the haves and give to the have nots. jorge

You forgot the world needs Ditch Diggers and Schitt Shovlers too Jorge.

V22: I have experience with the latter as no doubt some will agree to here! jorge

At least you didn't tell me thats what the Marines and Army Infantry were for.

If more folks knew how good they had it, they wouldn't be so quick to complain.

If I look at my situation, both my dad and I have 3 kids. He was a bit older than me when he started a family, as there was that WWII thing before he went into college. So at my age his kids were younger than mine are. I don't know what he was making $ wise, but probably equivalent or maybe a bit better. But, he had his own company and was working 60-80 hours a week. Based on the working 40 hours a week, I can't complain at all about how I'm doing.

Funnything this union discussion as I was talking to a friend who's a union guy that works in the oil patch as we were waiting for our flight back. He's in his early 60's and makes double what I do. The UAW folks would snap if they knew how much the oil field guys make. But suprise suprise, it comes down to how much money those companies make that allow them to provide such wages to their employees, both union and not, field hands and engineers.

Moneys out there, if it's what motivates you most you best go seek it. If it truly isn't, and that's ok, stop complaining.

jorge...my man, please tell me you do not believe that an UAW janitor earns a comparable salary to an attorney. You don't really believe that, do you?

It was digging someone else's ditch and shoveling out their chicken houses that convinced me to become a scientist and work with my education instead of my brawn. It aslo allowed me to rise above the masses, which the unions frown upon.

Wayne

$75 dollars is the labor COST to Chrysler for an hour of work, the highest of any of the Big Three. Ford's is $70.

That is what it costs the company to get any hour of "work" done by a UAW contract autoworker. It includes what the worker gets, the employer's FICA contribution, FUTA, health insurance, pension plan.....the works.

Public defenders and ADAs in New Orleans earn less than union auto workers.

I have never been involved with any sort of union, so can't comment on that issue.
However, I think the value of a good education and hard work is immense, and I am grateful for my education and my opportunities in life.

How much do the mechanics make that work on your jets Horge? I bet your ass you hope they make more than minimum wage when you are doing your maneuvers at mach whatever. Union wages have been fought for many years. Do you think the price of a car would go down if the workers were making minimum wage. If you do I got some property on Mars to sell you. These greedy stockholders would never come down on the cost of their cars. Thay would only pad their coffers more than they already are. Their is something to be said about an honest days work, but you can't really use honest and lawyer in the same sentence.

You really are an idiot.....

Without an education, you could turn out.....well, like 1gunner. Think how terrible it would be to be that ignorant all your life.

Do you have somebody who reminds you to breathe?

Of course not. Having said that, take a look at the starting Salary for same at GM or apprentice. For tht matter what I had to pay my plumber the other day, 75 bucks/hour. People should know their limitations and be paid accordingly and union wages are ridiculously overvalued. jorge

No and I don't have anyone to remind me of how much I hate scumbags like you.

The medical advances that are mentioned are not an issue to a growing percentage of Americans, because they do not have medical insurance. You are paying for the people that are not covered, via Medicare. You are not saving any money. It's sad that labor is characterized buy shoveling feces and serving fries. Apparently the people that make the all the stuff for your house, your house, electricans, plumbers, pipefitters, masons, ironworkers, carpenters, millwrights etc, are just schitt shovelers. Sorry for being an American that doesn't hold an office job. BTW I am a Union Electrian that is skilled enough to make $34 an hour in a powerhouse that has been staffed by unskilled, illegal labor for 20 years, making $12-$18 an hour, and I'm taking their jobs because I am faster, and more skilled, and hit the ground running every day I am there, because I am not giving those POS my job. I am proud of what I do and I think most Americans are, and we are better.

A HELL of a lot less than a union worker and they do it (as I do) for something much more meaningful. Duty and love of country.

A designtated Striker Airman Apprentice makes about 1500/month. jorge

"Union auto worker" would include ALL union auto workers then, would it not? "UAW janitor" would describe a new, unskilled, untrained employee. Janitor is right at the bottom of the pay scale among UAW workers. When we talk about Union auto workers we are decribing everyone from that janitor with one year on the job all the way through skilled trade people that have been working there twenty years. Bro, there is a HUGE range of pay represented here. No doubt some of the higher paid ones are making a real comfortable living. But to say that the janitor makes what a lawyer makes is getting a little carried away.

Has anyone PM'd Rick about this fool?
I've had enough of him pissing on the Fire....

Jorge 1, you are getting benefits that you are not counting. I was in the Army, and you are not figuring in the housing provided, the medical care, the rations, the cost of living allowance. Figure that into what you make, in real world values.

What a crock. Compare US healthcare to the socialist system touted by your union bosses and their democrat allies. How many times do you have to see the effects of leftist programs before they sink in. And BTW, the health insurance industry only exists because it was a way for employers to circumvent wage controls during WWII, by increasing benefits. Damn capitalist warmongers.

What you and Hillary now call insurance is really somebody else paying for all your medical care and buying all your prescriptions, eyeglasses and braces. That's not insurance, its just socialized medicine. And the cost of that kind of "insurance" is the reason the UAW has about half as many members as it once did. Goose...egg....remember I suggested you study up on that?

Bart 185, he didn't cuss or say anything that inflamitory. Can't we get a little inflamed? American men are now so fragile. The politically correct movement has really affected you. Now go watch "The View" that you TIVOed.

And not everyone 40 years ago had that coverage either! Not everyone can afford a ferarri or a mansion, should they be entitled to it?

I'm dang happy to have doctors that can stitch you back up. My daughter cut her femoral artory a few years back, and I'm dang happy to have her alive. Yeah, even with insurance it cost us over $2,000, and w/o it would have been over $10k. Even if I'd not been insured and had to pay every penny of it, it would have been worth it.

Those living in the USA today that say life sucks are the most selfish and deluded in the history of the world. The standard of living and options available to everyone trumps the vast majority of folks in this world that have nothing, and will never have anything. Not to mention the standard of living of all mankind from the beginning of time.

Go walk the streets of Calcutta or Darfor and then come back and say how this country sucks, and how much it owes you. How the evil greedy managament won't give you a living wage. You're owed what you can earn, and if it ain't enough, figure out how to make ends meet.

Apprentice: Of course I am. There are many, many studies that address this very issue (not counting family separation of course and there is no way to measure that!). According to most studies military members across all ranks lag significantly behind our civilian counterparts. jorge

Why don't you read some of his posts?
You are a noob around here and I think you should probably read more than post....Jackass....

None of my healthcare is provided by taxpayers, that was my point. It is a percentage payed to our health and welfare account by our employers. Our local is 100% self funded, no taxpayer contribution. Most of our contractors have been in business for 20+ years and make a profit. You keep paying for sweatshop labor and pay for the funded healthcare. Make yourself feel good anyway possible, not your problem, right?

Bart 185, look at how long I have been here and how many posts I have made, I have been reading. I just don't have the time in about the same amount of time that you, to research every post. This topic just gets me, how can you be mad about Americans making a good wage, especially when hypothetically you make one. Doesn't everybody want to want to make money when they go to work? If you are non-union, don't you ask for a raise every now and then. That is why I said management agreed to these conditions, unions are not to be in the position to be corrupt and strongarm now, so why did they agree? The labor is worth it. If non-skilled labor could do it, they would.

Do you have any idea what I do for a living? I'm in a union...Sadly... You are now really showing all how smart you are...
Wrong again...You ain't doing so good....The days of the union are past...The problem for folks like you is that you don't want to bargain on your own merit,skills and work ethic...There is a reason for that...

drop out of the union, post what your local is. How am I wrong that nonskilled labor wouldn't be cheaper if possible? Shops get away with illegals all the time, how else are the millions of illegal mexicans here? Are they all picking fruit? I guess all of the illegals roofing, the masons, ironworkers are a mirage. You are sheep, why are you in a union if you state that you are sadly. Get out and bargain on your own if you are a mover and a shaker. If you are in a Union shop, get out on your own merit, skills and work ethic, you could run the world.

Bla...Bla...Bla....
You have nothing to add to this topic....

I have seem dumbass statements, but that one has to take the cake. I would bet that a majority of autoworkers own stock in their company. I know that the telecoms are largely union and most employees own company stock. Plus, at least 90% of the workers who have 401k accounts own stock. Yeah, that's your greedy stockholders! Maybe you will learn about the stockmarket when you graduate high school.

Hey, I have something to add to this topic. I'm retired from 32 yrs in the IBEW. I think that apprintice has good points. If you don't think your union is helping you, get out. I've had friends that did that and rode on my back for years.

George

My father was a member of the United Mine Workers of America for as long as I can remember. He had a 7th grade education and was more than happy to have a job in the coal mines where he could work hard and make a decent salary that he would have never made otherwise..being uneducated. After Viet Nam, he had a wife and 4 kids to raise...no opportunity, funds, ect to educate himself....but a strong desire and willingness to work. My dad joined the UMWA and at some point became part of the leadershp in his local. Unfortunately, Drummond Coal decided that South America was a better place to mine for coal. my dad, in his naivety, thought the union had some mystical power to protect his job. I remember seeing him deeply depressed when he realized that the union he had so much faith in, was worthless when it came to protecting his job.
I, personally, have never been part of a union, although I have had several opportnities to do so. I worked at one place where the LPN's and unlicensed staff (nursrs aides, dietary staff, housekeeping staff, ect) were allowed to be part of the union but the RN;s, especially the advanced practice nurses, which was me and two other chicks in that small facility. I never understood why the divison was there?? I know that the RN;s were in a supervisory role to the other staff but that is just how medicine works. That is one of those professions where you cant work your way up the ladder, you have to educate your way up the ladder. And if there is a union....you educate yourself right out of membership. Something does not seem right about that????...... In all honesty, I never saw how union membership helped anyone. My father paid his union dues every month. It was almost fraternal for him. He and his buddies were at the union hall on Sunday evenings for football on the tv and a beer. I do find a great deal of value in that aspect of the union, so I dont want to belittle that in any wat at all. My fathers greatest friends on this earth were/are his union peers. For the healthcare team it seemed that the union caused a serious "us versus them" mentality. It caused such a rift among employees that it became difficult for me to see what was the benefit to membership.
I know that the nurses in the western US have organized unions to incluse Registered Nurses, which make up about 80% of the health care team in the hospitalmaccording tot he last American Jornal of Nursing stat I read. Without the inclusion of RNs, there would be little power within any healthcare union. The unionization of the western US has allowed for safer delivery of care through mandating mandatory nurse patient ratios. In California...where I held licensure for a few years for travel assignements, I knew that if I had a patient on a vent in the ICU, I would not get another. In Alabama, I have had as many as 4 ventillated patiens in an ICU at one time. The unions are credited for this legislation in the west, according to union advocates. I cant say for sure if that has merit or not, but obviously something has happened out there to get RN pay the highest in the nation, coupled with a safe climate for both nurse and patient.

The NLN (National League of Nursing) forecasts that unions are organinzing in rapid rate and moving East in rapid measure to get this same legisltaion passed in every state. I have to say that IF, and that is a BIG IF, any union had the power to get the mandated NPR's (nurse-patient ratio's) passed and into law, I will have to reconsider my personal views. It pains my father to hear me say that I am against a union......I just need to see where there is personal benefit in membership. My past experiences have not been positive.
Creating an "us versus them" workpace environment is not good for the patients or staff. Im curious as to how the western unions have been abe to overcome that hurdle??? Or if they have at all?

Very well put 280sRN. I am very proud of men like your father. They are who made America what it is today. These pubelican scumbags on here will never understand these ideals.

We just settled our union contract and it passed with a 2 to 1 majority.

We got a 9% raise over three years

Retro-active backpay for 1 year of the unsettled contract

Our lifetime medical cap per person was more than doubled

We regained the ability to defer 9 holidays each year for vacation instead of the pay.

We still do not pay a dime in monthly premiums for our family medical/dental plans.

Whats not to like.

Company has a happy and productive workforce and that makes us much more profitable and that makes shareholders happy.

Win-Win

YOur union contract sounds much like my dads. Now that he is fully retired, he and my mother still have free medical insurance with no co-pays or deductibles for life. They have that guaranteed within the contract. Coal miners seem to take care of the retirees first in the contract negotiations.

In my post, I brought up the issue of uions in health care. HAve any of you had any exposure to them? I know that the nurses in the western US love the union. The only places I have worked here in Alabama that were unionized was awful. It was a constant bickering. IF I wanted to talk to an employee about a problem, they came marching in with a union steward. I often just went thru the process of dicipline rather than deal with all that. Maybe it works best in the west because the RNs are part of the process????

Why do you find that as an issue?

And your dad was/is not unlike any other workin' man who happens to be a union worker that is continuously blasted for trying to provide the best for his family.

I am a union member who does not not continuously ask what the union can do for me.

All I ask is a fair days work for a fair days pay and to be treated fairly.

Should the company decide to move elsewhere for whatever reason I do not expect them to find me a job afterwards. I would however expect them to try to find maybe a better solution but in the event that doesn't work then it's over and it's time to move on.

If I should become infirm or "my feet hurt" or "my back hurts" and am unable to perform my duties or earn my pay I do not expect my union to move me into a cushy jub to last out my days. JMHO

There are opportunities elsewhere.

+1, everyman plows his own row.

As my father used to tell me,"the door ain't locked from the inside"

I believe it's called representation.

Not unlike retaining an attorney.

jorgeI, And out of that $75.00, what amount do you think went into the man's pocket minus all the business expenses?

You're a smart man, tell us.No flame,just an honest question.

Just like every other time this argument has come up - the same lotta ignorance and hyperbole from both sides of the issue...

Unions are like any other corporation - some good, some bad, some neutral. If you are working where there is a bad union, you should change it or work elsewhere. It's kinda like politics in general...

Unions are not God and they are not your Momma. If you think your union can or should protect you from all hardship, you are sadly mistaken.

OTOH - there are some industries that benefit from unions and union membership - and I mean the industries as a whole, not just the workers. The rail industry, in particular, is a good example. There is a reason that it has the oldest labor organization in the country. Anyone who wants to see what life was like before labor unions should study the history of the nation's railroad corporations. Not just the physical building of the railroads themselves - but the political and financial trends that brought on the abuse of everything and everybody that had anything to do with, or done to them by, the industry (except, of course, the "robber barons" in charge), and even thousands, if not millions, who were never even aware of how they were effected.

Had the "robber barons" not run their business the way they did (and in some cases, attempt to even now), there may never have been any unions to begin with. If you feel the need to dispute this, I would suggest that you need a little more education in history.

But - this doesn't mean I think all unions are good for their members and/or industries. Like any political entity, unions tend to wax and wane in power and influence. When they gain too much power, they tend to be abusive and even self-destructive. At this point in history, American unions in general don't have a lot of power - although, in some local situations they still do.

Why this whole argument should degrade into name-calling and other rudeness from both sides is something for thought. I see righteousness from neither side in this, and it doesn't need to be that way. There is no absolute bad/good position for or against labor unions that can be supported with fact. They are here for a reason and (contrary to some thoughts expressed here) are not about to go away. Our nation's economic problems stem from far deeper issues than union wages, and we all know that when we're being honest to ourselves.

Now - let's play nice.

Anybody remember which Republican on the debate said that unions will be on the rise in the not too distant future due to the inequity of the vast gap in wealth approaching us?

Fred Thompson said of the number of Americans who have lost their jobs to overseas 75% of them have gone back to work for less money.

It was an issue because I was not "management" but I was the nurse in charge. If I wanted to ask an LPN or a nurses aide to do something, or just discuss why something was not done, the union members almost always were defensive and felt as though they needed to come with their guns loaded. I was in no position to fire them, but I was in charge of the patient care on the unit. For instance....the na's job was to get the am blood sugars. I had a diabetic patient on the floor who was very brittle. I told this na that this paticular pts. blood sugar had to be checked first as she would likely need insulin. These blood sugars were due at 6 am. At 10 am, the LPN who was responsible for giving the insulin came to me and said that this na checked the blood sugar at 0945, recorded it as 650!!!!!!! and didnt tell anyone. After I had already stressed to this Na how important it was to do this first thing. I called her into my office to talk to her about it. I never liked to talk openly on the unit in front of peers/coworkers if there was a problem. After 30 minutes she had not shown up to my office. I went to the unit to see what was going on. She told me that she had called the union steward to come with her to talk to me, The union steward was an hour away and she was waiting on her. I gotta tell you...dealing with that is difficult when you are in the business of human lives. Had we been in a factory, things might have been put on hold easier. We had a patient with a 650 blood sugar that went unreported and untreated. I was in charge of 220 beds. I had an LPN in charge of giving meds. The LPN was a member of the union also so she was waiting on the union steward...meanwhile....the patient has a soaring blood sugar!!
I have no desire to join a union because I have never seen where one would benefit me personally, but I dont care, nor would I object to anyone else being in one. The problem in healthcare is situations like the one I just described. When you cant talk to someone and reach a concensus without a mediator of some form.
The situation was resolved by the management and adminstrator when the LPN was fired and the na for substandard care and insubordnation. The LPN was reported to the board of nursing for patient neglect as she intentionally withheld treatment waiting on a union representative.
I guess I just never understood why there was a need to have a union steward present to talk to a union member.....If someone wanted a rep, I never made a big deal of it, I just thought it was silly. I had a woman who worked in the laundry at that same facility who had requested a schedule change. I ased her to come by my office to see what we could work out to accommodate her request. She told me that she could not come until a union rep was available to come with her. ?@(#*!%#!^%(*& That just dont make sense to me......?????

I have been retired for several years, but this is what I recall. There has been a long-standing rule in labor relations that says "Obey now, grieve later". It is necessary so that the wheels of production, quite literally, do not stop while the issue is hashed out. Exception for immediate serious danger. As far as having a union representative present, an employee does not have the right to have a rep present for routine interactions with a supervisor. However, if the employee has reason to believe that the matter may lead to disciplinary action, he/she has a right to have a rep present, but not as a mouthpiece. I once met with an employee and his union rep because the employee had refused to do something unless he first checked with his lawyer. I explained to the employee that the workplace is not a democracy or a debating society, and that he had to do what he was told under the rule I cited above. The union rep supported me.

Paul

I will say again that I am neither for nor against unions. I do not feel a need to be part of one but if the right organization came into the south and could do for healthcare what they have done in the west, I might change my mind. The exposure that I have had to current union trends in health care has been very negative, mostly for the patients. In Alabama, most unions exclude the RN as we are seen as management which is often the case, but not always. My first post alluded to the issue of the "us versus them" mentality. That is the main problem that I see with the current medical unions available in Alabama today. Team nursing cant be done in a unionized facility. Team nursing is a specific model of care that utilizes staff to the fullest potential and has the ability to safely care for a maximum number of patients. This model is used almost excusively in non-union facilities. I guess I would like to see another option for healthcare. IF a union can bring about the change that is needed to keep people from leaving the field of nursing in record numbers, Im all for it. If a union can force the government to look at mandating nurse patient ratio's to a safe number, Im for it. I just know that what we have now in ALabama will not work. And again, the exclusion of the RN may be the reason why. I know for a fact that the CAlifornian nurse unions are led by RN's, which may be why they are so successful.

And that, young lady, is a BIG PLUS for you. Kudos.

There are those that don't feel the same as you whether or not they have first hand experience.

I work with several thousand people and IMO it would be a zoo without the union.The company and the union seem to work well together and have done so for many years. For the slackers and the whiners I have no sympathy and hold them in contempt.

"These pubelican scumbags on here will never understand these ideals."

So, if someone believes differently than you, they are scumbags? Hypocrisy never ceases to amaze me.

I personally feel unions have outlived their usefulness, but I will not begrudge any man for belonging to one.

Why should a UAW janitor make 70k a year? Why should a newspaper delivery person be paid 20 bucks an hour? These are topics that have been discussed on morning radio in my ao as a result of the current contract talks.

I've been told by union workers that the above have a right to live as well but the concepts of being paid what you're worth or the value you add were completely lost on them.

Oh well. This will go on like leupold vs zeiss or 30-06 vs .270.

Paul,
That was my understanding also. Unfortunately, in teh facility where I worked, there was a serious racial problem that was kept swept under the rug. When an insignificant issue arose, the union would become active and grievances would fly all over the place. The reality of the matter was that a racial problem existed and the administration either could not or would not address it.
My dads union was nothing like the labor union I was exposed to. I really hope that health care workers can find a way to do what the western states have done. It may require a union, a strong one that can keep the focus off of race and onto the real issues at hand. The race issue may be a southern problem and not such a big deal in other parts of the US. I dunno.

Mac84, do you believe in 1-1/2 pay for overtime ?

We do things a little differently...............................

Management has no problem stepping up to someone to discuss issues. Generally speaking they'll take you off to the side and away from your co-workers for a chat. If it's a disciplinary hearing behind closed doors it's advisable to have union representation available. Prevents any type of he said/she said BS.

We don't stop working when waiting for a committee man to show up. If we do the boss will stop our time (don't get paid while waiting). The committee man can pull us off the job for the investigation. I rarely put in a call for a committee man, I can resolve most issues with my boss.

Your in a peculiar position. Your not management but your required to be responsible for people working for you with zero authority to enforce rules. We call em coordinators, pay em an extra $.50 an hour. I told them to stick the job where the sun don't shine.




You sound like my wife!

I may not deal with human lives BUT I can effectivly shut down the plant costing a couple of thousand dollars in lost production....................................... per hour.

284,

I'm not Mac, but as you probably know, time-and-one-half for O/T is required by the Fair Labor Standards Act. Doesn't matter whether anybody believes in it or not. THe FLSA requires it only after an employee has worked for more than forty hours in a work period, normally a standard work week, but some policies or contracts have a lower threshold.

Here is a history question. Does anybody know why that became law? Hint: It had nothing to do with fairness or employee rights.

Paul

I don't understand the arguement anymore. Unions help workers earn more money and have more benefits. Someone has to make the money to pay for stupid bush's war machine. We need more unions and fewer F-16's.

Paul, my point was going to be that for the janitor, he or she is working a ton of overtime and being compensated for it.

It's cheaper to pay overtime than to hire a new employee.

There are people in my department that knock down 90Kplu$ per year and they earn it.

How about for Roosevelt's Truman's JFK's & Johnson's war machines? I was wondering when you would bring Bush into the mix.

The argument is that a near-illiterate screw turner on an assembly line should not make as much money as someone who put the time, money and effort to get an education. The UAW has a fit every time the US automakers want to automate more. Just look at the Toyota Plant in Tenn and the GM plant next door. face it there is a reason why (thank GOD) unions are only about 7% of the US work force. Still waiting for a LUCID response to my reply regarding military pay compared to unions. jorge

Paul, would be interested in hearing about the origin of time and a half. I do think that it should be paid past 8 hours. When I was working a summer job putting in curb and gutter (we of course called it turd and gutless), we would put in four ten-hour days in a week and pretty regularly get rained out of the fifth day, so no overtime. Didn't seem fair to me then, still doesn't now. Best, John

The only exposure I have had to a union, outside of my dads expereice, has been negative. I think if the race issue was not such a hot topic here, the union could have been a good thing. I REALLY hope that after seeing the success of the westen states, the rest of the nation will join the cause and get medical care back on track where nurses are at the bedside again and adminstration is just that, adminstraion .....and they leave the patient care to the patient care experts..THE NURSE! In some facilities, there are people with MBA's making decisions about standards of care witout any health care exposure. That is SCARY!

If you really want to see how receptive the hospitals are to unions in this area research Northern Michigan Hospital in Petosky MI. Don't have a quick link for you handy, I'll have to explain some of the details later.

OK, 284 sort of answered it in his last post about it being cheaper to pay overtime than to hire more employees, but it wasn't supposed to work that way.

The FLSA was New Deal legislation. With massive unemployment during the Depression, the idea was to make it costly for employers to require employees work extra hours, so by mandating a time-an-one-half "penalty", employers would have an inducement to hire more workers, and spread employment around. It hasn't worked that way, at least in recent times, as 284 pointed out. It's interesting that most people now see premium pay as some sort of fairness issue, to compensate employees for having to work long, tiring shifts, being away from family, etc. It didn't start out that way. Another thing that's interesting is a trend where more and more employees are turning down OT. Maybe that's a healthy sign. I can remember when most guys would suck up all the OT they could get. Times change.

Paul

284,

Yes I do.

I'll be back. Oldest just wiped out. Gotta go see if he's ok.

Paul, thanks for the explanation. I had never heard that. I like the idea of people turning down overtime. I think that 8 hours of work, 8 of sleep (even though I don't require that much), and 8 hours to call your own makes sense. Barring safety issues and matters of life and death, I think that any overtime past eight hours should be optional. Best, John

Horge, your response is so ignorant you really don't deserve a response. You need to go up to some of the auto plants and tell them how ignorant they are. They would chase you and your sorry azz plane back to mexico where you came from.

When was the last time you've been in a GM plant? We still produce the same volume of vehicles we did 15 years ago with 60% less human labor. The domestic content of our vehicles hasn't changed much in the same time frame. The facility I work in has also cut labor by over 60%, many of those menial jobs you cite have been sent out to non-GM plants where workers earn aprox $12.00 an hour. We have close to 500 robots on our floor, works great for the economy. Robots purchase tons of goods stimulating growth.

Don't be fooled by the quote of $75.00 an hour labor. Our paycheck reflects less than half that rate. Ya I can make a six figure income per year, I also work over 2500 hours a year.

I just knew when I saw the title of this thread that love would be in the air!
My HO is that there are some good and some bad. Always is. When I was a Deputy I know we wouldn't have gotten our pay up without it and even at that it wasn't great pay. The Sheriff, the County. and the members didn't go by the letter on the contract and we just used common sense and worked with each other. Since I've retired I've had a couple of jobs since then and except for one; they treated people like dirt. This why some places opt for unions. Every coin has two sides.

Qtip
Soli Deo Gloria!

WHY IS THIS JACKASS STILL ALLOWED TO POST HERE?
WTF???????????????

I have to admit that I felt a little mischievous when I titled this thread and posted it.....................BIG GRIN

nuff ex-jarheads around here to make ole Jorge's life real interesting. They wouldn't take real kindly to some zero tellin em their ignorant!

Bart 185, evidently you haven't received my PM's. There was real clear instructions included for you.

AJ: I'm former USMC 0311 . As to the reference regarding labor savings, I merely quoted a report on efficiencies between the two plants. And OF COURSE I was implying that NOT Just trying to drive the point home that labor is overpriced to a degree. ALL workers are ignorant. If I came across that way, I apologize. Incidentally, I buy strictly GM. As to that one=celled Zygot 1 gunner, Mexican? me? how insulting. I swam the channel vice the Rio Grande....Thanks to another democrat... See my insult post on the other thread, you really should try to swim in the deeper end of the gene pool. There's more 02 there, but somehow I doubt it'll help you. jorge

No broken bones I hope.The ER ain't fun.

I received your PM's...Just abunch of drivel...
You are here for nothing except to stir things up...
You have nothing to add and are just another troll that gets off on insulting folks that are established members...Go away....

America's biggest unions are the American Medical Association and the American Bar Association. They have a closed shop tighter than any building trade could dream of.

It was brought up earlier about the amount of money that CEO's are paid. FYI Toyota compensates their executives on par with what GM does. Around 25 million dollars. Rewally a drop in the bucket in the scheme of things.
In most businesses labour is your highest expense.

And what are you here for bart185? You seem to really add a bunch of unintelligent opinions. Don't worry maybe the migrant workers will unionize one day and you will be making good money too. LOL

Why don't you post your address?

I live in Virginia, but I don't think it is any of your business.

wimp

Bart, how is the hunting where you live?

We talk fishing when trolls invade....Not hunting....
Water is starting to cool off here....

???????? PLease.

Bart.....is that your son on your avatar??? He is a cutie for sure! Bout 4 or 5 I guess??

Yeah...He was 4 and that was outside of the restrooms by Old Faithful in Yellowstone...
We both have grown a little bit since that pic was taken...

Sorry, but, unions suck! I have several friends that are FORCED to work for unions.......they despise them.

How could a MAN look his family in the face and say that someone else had negotiated their future?????????????????

Unbelievable!

BINGO!!!!!!!
Give that man a cigar....

Don't keep being jealous Bart, I told you they will eventually unionize the migrant workers. Then you can reap the benefits of collective bargaining. Hell you might even be able to trade in that 71 vega.

I need a trolling motor recommendation....For a bass buggy...
Anyone?

Nobody is forced to work Union!!! They can quit anytime they want. Bart why are you still working Union you mustn�t see your family much.

I'm in the middle of a career change....
No more union BS for me....

There you go, You should be a lot happier good for you.

My recommendation is QUIT.I didn't know that slavery is still in effect.Seriously Huntr, this is a touchy subject and can really raise some hackles.I wish your friends well and Godspeed.

OTOH, The company I work for is a union shop and you should hear some of the guys P&M, but they won't quit.

Me ? I'm just happy to have a job. I've been hungry in the past and didn't like it. As a side note because of that I ain't no friggin' azz kisser. Ask anybody I work with.

It's easy, when you're part of the negotiating team. If you or your union leadership don't understand that concept, it's time for a change.

I don't see how anyone in this day and age can be forced into union membership. You have choices to make, and you can't force the willing. If one feels forced into union membership with only 7% of the workforce under union contract, it seems that is probably a personal failing. Good thing such a person isn't making their own way...

Another under-rated union benefit!
Not that you would be anyway - but it does make it less costly to uphold that principle. Having worked both sides of the issue, I remember full well how much sharing in the boss's drinking problem (or worse) pays off for some...

Kat short version of what happened at NMH. RN's voted to accept union representation. Came to bargining a contract management used all sorts of creative stall tactics while prepairing to replace existing nursing staff. RN's got tired of the dog and pony show, walked out on strike. Hospital management brought in replacement workers (scabs), refused to negotiate a contract. Time passed without any action, some nurses that walked out returned to work in dire need of a pay check. Another election was held, guess what? The nurses voted to de-certify the union. Other hospitals in the area have considered having union representation, the situation from NMH is thrown into their face. Now that the repulsicans have passed new laws concerning supervisory positions and union representation RN's would have a tough time organizing. They can't strike, how else are you going to get management to see the light. All the bean counters care about is money. Patient care is secondary.

I can't see any reason why a RN shouldn't be able to care for a handfull of patients who are on a vent. It's not like their going anywhere.............................................

I'll try not to hold that against you. Everyone knows the only real pilots are Airforce.................................

Isn't that the Air Farce buddy..

GM will be gone in 10 years - bet on it.

been there, done that...Cesar Chavez and the UFW....before you were born.....made a few gains, but failed to unionize more than a few percent of workers

Then Chavez got the Messiah complex and became a pure commie La Raza apparatchik. And for that, got his birthday a state holiday in Kalifornia.

I think that everybody here that thinks that the need for organized labor is gone the way of the dinosaur, needs to read up on the West Virginia Coal Field Wars that continued up until the 1920's. That is fairly recent history and is currently being repeated. Do some research into the illegal immigrant barrack and company store systems currently being employed in the agricultural labor market. The illegal immigrants will organize, with the biggest push in California. We have a "United We Stand" motto that might be known by all, but put into use on a convienent basis by most. Most, if not all, of the working conditions and benefits that most everbody enjoys now, where fought for by organized labor. These include a 40 hour work week, an 8 hour work day, safe working conditions, etc. These are not trivial, men died for these things. Now it is easy to talk trash about organized labor, but think about literally putting your life on the line for it.

Well put.

Organized Labor is a lie....
The Organizers don't know [bleep] about real labor....
You are too stupid to see that....

you know this has been one interesting thread. that being said, the unions accross the country have lost about 350,000 members or more, over the past 20 years. And they contiune to decline each year with no end in sight. Unions are a business within a business. They take the members dues to represent them. Thats it. Thats what they do. I have belonged to 3 diffrent unions and have had factory's closed on me each time. Unions at one time served a very useful purpose. But that time has past. Unions have helped drive up the price of cars just as much as the car companies. I don't need someone to speak for me, let alone pay someone.

The farthest thing from the truth in our plant. I'll give you my department as an example. The company came to the union (our local union) a year and a half ago about bringing in three components for us to manufacture. The company already quoted the customer a price for all three components. That quote was at a $9 million loss A YEAR. The union said absolutely not. Why would you bring products into the plant at any loss, let alone $9 million A YEAR. The company was going to set the department up with 11 machine operators, a truck driver and a job setter per each of the three shifts, 39 people total. Plus a supervisor per shift. These people were expected to work 6 and 7 days a week. That averages out to 60 hours a week per month. Using their figures. 75$hr x 60hr x 52wks x 39 ppl= $9,126,000 labor a year. The union asked if they could work with the engineers and try to come up with a better way of manufacturing these components. The company agreed.

The union and the company engineers came up with a plan to use FANUC Robots (which the company already had but weren't using and still aren't) to automate the entire department. Use a few different machines that would run faster, be a lot more efficient, creating a lot less scrap, require a lot less maintenance and didn't cost that much more. Needing three operators, one to two job setters and a truck driver per each of the three shifts. 15 people total. Plus a shared supervisor with the neighboring department. The people would only have to work 40 hours a week with just about no overtime at all. Again using their figures. 75$hr x 40hr x 52wks x 15 ppl= $2,340,000 There was very little capital investment. The department would lose about $3 million dollars the first year, just about break even the second year and make money every year after.

Which plan do you think they went with, their plan or ours? Neither. They used even older machines. Added a few more people and are going to lose about $12 to $15 million this year alone between labor, scrap and downtime. Their figures 75$hr x 60hr x 52wks x 45 ppl= $10,530,000 which is going to be higher. We pretty much work 7 days a week. The union tried as hard as they could. The company still did it their way. Even when given facts by their own engineers.

Our local has been proactive with automation. We've automated areas of the plant and it's help speed up the process by using less people. That has actually gotten us more work and created more jobs because we can give our customer more products at a cheaper price. It isn't only the company that is in favor of automation. Sometimes as with my department, management just doesn't listen.

I went to my supervisor a few weeks ago with an idea that will save about $10,000 worth of scrap a month off my job (they preach every penny counts in manufacturing). I went to upper management a few months ago. They didn't think it was a good idea and blew me off. My supervisor has been approaching it from a different angle and I was elected to a position in the union. I have a little more traction now. Together we are probably going to get this done. Then together we will move onto something else. I'm glad he needs his job as much as I need mine.

What do you guys think about new employees striking?

I don't feel it is right for a person to get hired for an agreed wage and benifit package and then strike for more/different compensation.

I think if you strike within the contract cycle of being hired, you should be fired.

NY hunter 2.
I'm glad that your union is maybe one of the few progressive unions around. Sounds like you have a bunch of boneheads leading the plant. ( company )I hope they start listening to the cost saving idea's. Its all about how much they can squeeze out of a dollar.

Oh they are not going anywhere.....its keeping them alive that is the problem. All that mechanical breathing interferes with my lunch break!! ANd God forbid they come oout from under sedation and pull the ET tube out....or throw a few pvc's and get into a bad heart rythem.
All kidding aside...ventilatted patients are the HARDEST to care for because they decline so rapidly. Its tough whe you have 3 or 4 of them and a couple get bad on ya.
When I was in CAlifornia travel nursing, I only had 1 ventillated patient and 1 non-ventillated patient in the ICU....no more than 2. Im Birmingham, I could have as many as 4 and be in charge of the entire unit. Its dangeraous to work that way.
RN's will ALWAYS have a difficult time unionizing because the RN is ALWAYS the leader/supervisor. Like I said earlier, you cant have an us against them mentality if the supervisor is part of the unionized.

That's not true, we use pilots to dock our ships. But the only true Aviators are in the Navy, Marines and USCG

284: I just read your post wrt 75/hour for the plumber. No clue as to the ratio, but some doctors don't get that much. AJ, I thought you were USMC! Didn't know you were a member of our civilian counter parts in the Air Force ? jorge

Why then do they send you via slo bote? By the time the ship arrives the Airforce has already turned the area into a glass paved parking lot.

Flat top transit time = 2 weeks.
B-52/B-1 = Overnight Delivery

Where it's then 30 minutes from the targets next six months while the 12 B-2's sit in Missouri

Most valuable plane in the USAF is the KC-135. All the rest could really leave without much impact

You are all nothing more than a burden on taxpayers. Our economy would flourish if it weren't for all the money you waste. You need to get a real job, maybe designing model airplanes.

I've very intentionality avoided jumping in with others condemning you for your rather rude introduction into this quite diverse and informed group of people. I don't know what you do for a living and thus defacto assume you are a useful member of society and want to add value here. I have gone back and looked at all your posts and tried to understand your frame of reference.

Since you have failed, in 64 posts, to add any value you have now earned a rightful place in my kill file. Have a nice life. PLONK

Horge, where I live doctor's charge between $60 to 80.00 per visit. These aren't specialist either. They are general practicioner's. I have seen them put between 6 to 12 patients an hour through their office. Do the math, this comes to much more than $75.00 an hour .

If that's so, it won't be because of unions. The bulk of the blame goes squarely on management, with most of what's left assigned to government. Between the waste and bad decisions in management and damaging government influence, it's a wonder some of the large corporations can stay afloat.

A closer look will show you how GM has put itself into bad favor with the American car buyer. The policies that have caused this have little or nothing to do with organized labor. But every good management team likes to blame all it's troubles on the union, if it has one. What's funny is that so many people fall right into lock-step-thinking with the clowns that destroy a business from the top, with this "blame the unions" theme.

That;d right you you damn punk, when someone don't agree with you, silence them You are scum.

Bart - you're perfect management material! If you aren't managing a railroad or some other huge corporation, you're missing out!

One of the anti-union management mentality's biggest failings is assuming and believing the members of it's workforce to be stupid. Stupid cuts through all strata of business and infects every level. But not all workers, nor managers, are stupid.

BTW - you don't know as much about unions as you think you do.

1gunner - you just made my ignore list too. I think that makes a total of three in the years that I've been here. You're in special company. You should be proud.

Thank you freeme. I feel honored. They also must have disagreed with you.

1gunner, your an azzhat, no doubt in my mind. You have done nothing but attack people since you showed up, why don't you go back to stroking yourself a bit more, come back when you've grown up. This is Just For You!

You seem to be of the gay persuasion, why don't you stroke it for me?

Yep, great comeback, I can see your of the low IQ part of the gene pool, go drink some chlorine!

Allen,My butcher, a decorated, disabled (amputee) Viet Nam vet and former member of the 82nd Airborn told me that his instructors, prior to his first jump, said that the Army had the worst pilots and didja ever notice that they always crash on landing and not on take off?

Given that they said, "so you might as well jump now"

Quite an interesting guy. Along with his life's experiences he has two degrees. One in forensic anthropology and the other in micro biology, I think.

....and he's cuttin' meat ?????????

Sure I do....
I've been in one for twelve years....
Been on strike...
Seen turds get away with unbelievable nonsense that should have gotten them fired on the spot...
Payed my dews twice a month without saying a word...
I'll never have anything to do with a union again...They are COMMUNISTS!!!!All unions love Hillery...
What else do you want to know?

Bart - 12 years seems like a long time to say nothing. If I were unhappy about my union. I would have had plenty to say. In fact - I've said plenty anyway in my 27 years in three different unions. The fact that you seem to view your membership as a "me/them" thing says much about your relationship and involvement. I have no clue who is at fault in that - you or those around you - just to be clear.

In 27 years, I have been on strike 3 or 4 times (can't remember without checking) for a grand total of something less than 6 days, IIRC. I doubt that I'll see another strike - ever. Frankly, there are usually better ways for both ends to deal with contract issues than a strike.

Unfortunately, your point about Hillary is based on some fact. Union organizations tend to support democrats, as a rule (as opposed to a large fraction of the membership - a lot of union members vote conservative). But that's not hard & fast (I have seen union PAC fund money given to republican candidates). That's only natural, when republicans tend to blindly support big-business and democrats tend to blindly support unions. It's a sorry fact of life that I find hard to live with, but not unlivable.

Good thing that corporate political donations outweigh those from labor organizations, eh?

Once again your ignorance is only surpassed by your political persuasion. I doubt you know the real meaning of Communism. If you want a real life example take a look at the azz clown in the White House. Its a shame he couldn't have been the one riding through Dealey Plaza in November of 1963. You say you are out of work. You should be pounding the pavement looking for a job instead of putting ayour stupid posts on here. We all union members know you are a scab. Enough said about that.

GFY!!!!

1gunner, go back to your friggin hole. Hey Bart hows the fishing? Les

The truth hurts doesn't it Diego?

Hey Bart - it's clear that 1gunner has nothing to say that is worth reading. You really should block him. It makes things so much more pleasant, and it'll be healthier too.

I'm headed to Sportsmans Warehouse to get some bullets,powder,and dies...I'll browse the fishing section for our troll here....

Check out the "HEY RICK" thread I just started....

I gotta get some more 100 gr TSX's. Les

This union arguement is going nowhere. Its one set of ideals against another. Its obvious we will never agree. I will be man enough to leave it alone.

Partially true. The GM you see in 10 years will be quite different that the the GM of today...................... if they achieve their agenda.

Their game plan is to assemble vehicles, won't produce a single part they use. They'll leave that to outside vendors.

What do you consider new employees? In our contract once you made it through your 90 day probation period (where the union can only represent you for health and safety and pay issues, which means you were shorted pay or something to that effect, the steward has to go to payroll and get it corrected. Heaven forbid a supervisor going and doing it. Most of them wouldn't be able to fit that into their schedule of riding around on their little carts doing pretty much nothing all day long. There are some exception, not many.) you are a regular employee just as someone with 25 years.

As far as striking during the "contract cycle". All three of the "Big Three's" contracts expired on September 14th. So that's a non issue.

AJ: If you compare the number of times Naval Aviation has been used against USAF assets since the end of WWII it isn't even close. For example, when Saddam first invaded Kuwait in 1990, the USS Kitty Hawk Air Group was on scene within 24hours keeping air cover over the 82nd that was deployed to Saudi Arabia and stopped Hussein's advance to the border. It took the USAF almost three months to commence the first operational patrols over there. The list is endless. And also for the record, USN kill ratios are over five times higher than the USAFs.

Hey 1gunner, your disdain for the Armed Forces comes as no surprise. union and democrap. Guess the swim at the deeper end didn't help. go figure. jorge

In this thread, that's funny!

jorge - a very large percentage of my co-workers (who are union members) are veterans and current Guardsmen. They are largely conservative-thinking and would take issue with that last remark.

Y'all really should ignore 1gunner.

jorgeI, I want to thank you for your service. Keep up the GREAT work. Thank you!

Oh yeah, my friend was attached to the 7th Marines and they were deployed to Saudi Arabia about the same time the 82nd was. He was a tow missile gunner in the 3rd tank battalion and was part of Task Force Ripper.

Jorge my friend, we had USAF assets in Saudi in the late 70's. Don't remember the code name for the operation, we ran a tanker task force (KC-135's) and also E3-AWACS as they came online.

Well I ignored this post until curiosity regarding PGgunner pulled me in...I shouldn't have looked:)

Boy, it seems apparent all of you anti-union guys believe union members are all overpaid?


I can only gather you all believe that only the college educated in this country deserve a good, or even livable wage, and those who didn't obtain college educations for themselves should toil for min. wage , or maybe a little above.

Let me hear from you guys who are slamming the unions, step up (and since you seem to know a lot about the those who work in the auto industry), what do you think is a fair wage? Give me a yearly income, benifits, retirement (If any)... step up and give it to us.

Let me hear what you think should be par for the job for a construction worker with no college under his belt...25K a year, 28K, any retirement, or health? How about that plummer, what should his yearly income be, should he have himself a retirement plan (at your expense)?

How about the guys working at Winchester, say a guy who has been a machinest there for twenty years, what do you think he is worth? I always figured it is between the management and the employees, but you all seem to have some insider information that the employees at Winchester are making too damn much money, and causing a collapse at Winchester. Since a worker in China or India is Making X, then what should a U.S worker on the line be making, X+$5 an hour? ...

Don't tell me "whatever Toyota makes" because that is going down once (as you put it) the unions become "a thing of the past.

Is it really the wages that piss you off, or the fact that the workers have a say about what they work for, or the conditions they work in?


I love it when $150 an hour guys slam the $35 an hour guys for being overpaid, that is not only rich, but is flat out a disregard for those who didn't get college educated... Are you all OK with a two tier scociety as in Mexico, Ok to scrap the middle class?

Who's going first, propose a fair package?

I'm suddenly reminded about how all my current and ex-military friends voice their contempt for goods produced and supplied by "low-bidder" contractors. Now I'm wondering how that squares with some of what I'm reading here...

Freeme: Again I apologize as I did not mean to imply that union workers are anti-military, not at all. What I tried to convey was that at least in my experience, his political leanings fit the mold a lot more as most union members vote democrat and therein lies the comparison. Again I apologize. jorge

Barkoff - here's what I find really ironic. I know a lot of guys who delayed working for a living for another four or more years while obtaining a college degree - and now make much less money (although, with less effort, as well) than I do. Some of them hate unions and consider me overpayed. I also know quite a few who did the degree thing, and then noticed that that could make more money by not putting that degree to work (although, sadly, four years late) and proceeded accordingly.

One has to ask - who are the stupid ones?

After indulging myself with that dig, I have to acknowledge - many college-educated individuals know and accept that they will not be paid as well as perhaps the should be, but continue on that path out of love for a particular profession or a sense of service. I don't hold that against them, so long as they don't hold my path against me.

Those of you who think it should take a degree to make real money should think for a while what it means to "pay your dues". Sometime it does mean studying - but a lot of times it means going through experience that many folks would shrink away from. A lot of industries are filled with such jobs - jobs that would likely pay fairly well without union influence, but might not be too survivable as such.

That some of us thrive in these positions shouldn't be a reason for non-union folks to anguish over...

Jorge - apology unnecessary, but accepted.

Thanks Jorge, apology accepted.

I am Pro-God, pro-union, ex-military and I subscribe to neither political agenda on a regular basis, what would that make me

Gone for a couple of days and a union thread starts...who da thunk it?

I am feeling kinda short winded so here we go.

Union members think they are worth more than are, and are afraid to let the free market prove it.

For some, that is most likely true. But there's another side to the story...

Sometimes, "free market" means that the employer decides not to pay what he (it, they, whatever) promised at hiring. Sometimes "free market" means the employer looks for trumped-up excuses to fire you because it a)saves him money, b)makes the immediate supervisor look good on paper, c)his worthless nephew needs a job. Sometimes "free market" means "we'll find somebody desperate enough to a)violate the law, b)risk certain death or dismemberment, c)accept slave-labor terms, to replace you".

I could go on, but instead I'll just point out that in my own industry I am aware of several non-union companies that pay almost as well as the union shops - but with arguably better working conditions. BTW - guess where many (if not most) of their employees get their training...

My statement was over simplified on purpose...I felt onery.

But I will say that with the free market you cannot say this company does this or that...you must say all companies in the same line of business, or it just rings hollow. If Bread company A fires people for no reason....then work for company B or C or D or.......but Union members fall into two categories the ones who would get fired from A, B, C, D in a free market and the ones who like making more than the free market would bear, or in other words getting welfare from their companies.

Coupla things...

The history of my industry (and others) is that at some point virtually all corporations were run by like-minded individuals - if not by the same small group of individuals itself. This is where the unions came in initially.

Now we have a lot of relatively new companies - some of them connected loosely with the larger companies and some not. Surprising thing is...many of the employees that have found jobs at these new companies were the ones who were fired for various legitimate reasons from their union jobs at the larger companies.

Anyway, my point is that your premise doesn't follow reality. At one time (more than once) we have had these huge supercorporations that all were run very similarly. And the present smaller corporations that siphon away previously trained workers with better conditions don't have enough of the market to support a large employee roster. Besides - the union jobs still do pay a little better and offer (in most cases) better benefits. And why shouldn't they? - their respective corporations make more profit per investment - which is exactly why they spun off the less profitable properties. And the jobs at these same (union shop) corporations are generally more demanding - which is also reasonable.

If it was truly a free-market situation (which it has never been for long - empire-building being the sport that it is), things might be as you suggest.

This is probably where Barak will show up...

hey jorge,

i generally, depending on where i'm working and under which agreement, know to the penny what i'm making in my pay package... this includes health insurance, retirement, and annuity...
on straight time, as a skilled craftsman, i make nowhere near $75.00 per hour worked... even when working as a foreman or general foreman i make nowhere near this amount....

currently i am working at a generating station in a right to work state... the job that i am working is severely under manned and the outage will stretch out as a result, costing the customer dearly....
in a right to work state, it would seem a simple thing for the contractors to hire welders, riggers, and mechanics "off the street"... the customer, though, a major midwest utility, has determined that all skilled work will be performed by union craftsmen...
i maintain that union wages are, indeed, not overvalued...
they are a fairly negotiated price for a valuable commodity...

the customer, in this case is bearing the additional burden of the contractors paying an additional $3.00 per hour over union scale as a "safety and attendance bonus"...
this is a baldfaced ploy to lure skilled union workers from other regions, but, hey, guess what??? ... the other regions are all short handed as well, and the bonus pay is, almost everywhere, being seen as simply another "cost of doing business" and competing for an increasingly scarce skilled labor resource...

and, no, even with the $3.00 per hour over scale, i'm still not making anywhere near $75.00 per hour in any way, shape or form... regards..... john w

and FWIW, most minimum wage [bleep] shovelers, most lawyers, and most people in general, won't go where i go, nor do what i do... regardless of pay.....

johnw , Where exactly is it that you go? What do you do that pays the bills??????????? Im just curious. I have done a lot of jobs I never thought I would do cause I had to get by.

i am a boilermaker, and i occasionally walk(crawl) through the gates of hell.....

good help wanted.....
http://www.bnap.com/

There are LOTS of boiler makers where Im from. My uncle and now his grandson have practically ran Miller Steam Plant for Alabama Power for 40 years. He made a good living doing that, My Aunt was a stay at home mom and their childern were privately schooled, as well as their grandchildren. They live in a beautiful paid for home and travel as much as health allows. Round here, a boiler maker is a good job to have and not one that is complained about. The county in Alabama were I am originally from was a coal mining county. Drmmond Coal shut down 4 mines and most everyone I know was affected...my father was hit hard by it. My uncle, on the other hand, never missed a beat at Miller Steam Plant. When the rest of the county was drying up and famlies moving away, they thrived. I would not say that boiler making was something that was TOO terribly bad or my uncle with rheumatoid arthritis, and now alzheimers could not have done it for 40 years. He was forced into retirement when he was diagnosed with alzheimers....due to forgertfulness not confusion. His hands are withered terribly from the rheumatoid. Those men at his local continue to visit him and will occasionally take him out to the steam plant for social functions.

quote=284LUVR]

That's just nuts. My FIL is of the same opinion as you.So I'll tell you the story I told him.

I used to work for very large union constuction company. Years ago while working in Leesburg, Va. we were working a job making X amount of dollars per man. A few miles away there was another non union company doing exactly the same work and we were making more than double the amount the other guys were making.Hmmmmmmmmm.

Free market, you say ? Free market price comes into effect in the price of the finished product which is governed by the manufacturer of the product.

BTW, both of the above companies are alive and well today and they are owned by the same man.

About 15 years ago I worked as a boilermaker for a non union company that paid in excess of the scale for our area. The company recognized the need for our skills and is THE industry leader in their field.They were always very open with us about the cost of labor in relation to the finished product.We were but a minor amount when factored into the price of the finished product. I now work for a large unionized company that is a leader in it's field and again the price of labor is small against the Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price.

Labor is the easiest part of manufacturing costs to CONTROL as the company cannot negotiate the price of doing business such as raw materials, heating , cooling, taxes, etc.

What's wrong with having bargaining power ? There's power in numbers and that's just a fact of nature.Are there other issues? Sure, but more often than not they are people problems rather than monetary.

To those of you that placed yourselves in a class above others by virtue of your education, I feel sorry for you.We're all in the same boat.

My butcher is a decorated, disabled (amputee) Viet Nam vet who happens to have two degrees. One in forensic anthropology and the other in micro biology. Should he charge more for his meat?

My friend's daughter is in her mid thirties and is in college. Since graduating from high scool she has been continuing her education and has several degrees.Very nice and smart girl as well as being a woman of high standards but she has never held a job other than waiting on tables.What salary will she command if she ever gets around to working? Nobody will be able to afford her if it's based on education.Whatever salary she negotiates, there's that word again,it will be based on what the free market will bear.Not unlike workers who have banded together to form an alliance to mantain a standard of living in return for their services. [/quote] [/quote]

Ooooops, sorry for screwing up the format.

40 years as a boilermaker is indeed something to be proud of...
if he worked out of a local, l.u. 108 perhaps, then he is one of us, and you may, if you wish, convey my regards to him and his...

there may indeed be a concentration of boilermakers where you live...



fact is, though, that boilermakers are a somewhat uncommon breed... union boilermakers comprise about .00026% of the population the United States and canada...
there are about 5 non union boilermakers for every union hand....

union and non union together, the boilermakers comprise an exceedingly small part of the nations population...

i will not disparage a man who works as a non union boilermaker... there are many who are dedicated, consumately skilled craftsmen...

i do regret the fact that most of them work without benefit of health insurance or retirement benefit....

most of the non union hands receive an on the check wage that is comparable to mine... some a little more... some a little less... most non union hands also receive anywhere from 30 - 75 $$ per diem, untaxed...
their wage, combined with their per diem allowance, allows most of them to live well... until a serious health issue, or old age interrupts their life...

johnw, here's what I used to weld as a boilermaker. All welds X-Ray and ultrasound quality as well as heat treated to withstand 1200-2500 psi and temps down to minus 250 degrees.All done with 7018 and TIG sometimes a little 5P but rarely.All stainless units could be made as well. Can't pass a 6G test? Don't even fill out the application.

This unit requires about 80 hours of fitment and welding by one man before it moved out into the shop for wiring and tubing installation.We also made units that had to be assembled in the field because of their size much like you do in an industrial or powerplant job.

Lotsa fun and skill making these but I moved on to more money.

KBR??? ...
actually, there is so much big money contending for boiler work, that you almost need a program to keep the players straight...

B&W and CE/ABB are amongst the big oldies, or the old biggies...
fluor/daniels, stone & webster, bechtel....

of the above companies, all, with the exception of stone and webster,were historically double breasted, having both union and non union operations... stone and webster, long a staunch union proponent was purchased by shaw timberline, and now is considered to be the union side of that parent organization....

John,FES,Stands for freezer equiptment sales.Started as a small almost one man shop and grew bigger until Carrier bought it and ran it into the ground then sold to Thermodyne. I don't know who owns it now or if they are still as genererous to their employees

More thoughts on the subject of collective bargaining and self-determination.

It's really popular among non-union people (well, anti-union) to refer to union members as "communists or socialists". Without going into the technicalities of those terms - lets just say "socialist" - I'd like to point out a dirty little secret...

Socialism implies a system where members of society rely on each other - often at a disadvantage to the individual - for well-being. So to call a union a "socialist" organization is accurate. But...who in this nation is not a socialist to some degree? Do you build your own roads? Do you supply your own pure water, electricity, and sewage treatment? Do you acquire goods through barter or only pay with precious metals? Do you provide your own education for your family?

Most of us - the vast majority of us - do not do all or even many of these thngs. We pool our resources (although some may claim, unwillingly - but they still use the goods) and put them to use in a collective manner. We do this - even though we might better prosper individually if we did not.

How many of you who toss the "commie" bomb in these discussions do any or many of the above? How many of you really make your own way in the world? (Barak - your answer is already a matter of record )

I know a lot of folks who are paying members of a club-type retail outlet. They get large discounts because of the huge buying power of a dedicated franchise. Socialists!

Most of us are comfortable most of the time with a government-organized (payed for by taxpayers) police force, when many of us might fair better providing for our own protection. Socialism - just ask Barak!

Christians are called to witness and spread the gospel, but most pay tithe and offerings and let a group of professionals and those few who are more devoted do it for them - even though Christianity (and individual Christians, I think) might be far better served by all believing individuals making their own way and witness. So...cial...ism!

Socialism is so stigmatized in "conservative" America that few people notice or admit that they themselves practice it or take advantage of it to some degree. I, as a union member, am not afraid to admit the socialist nature of unions. Obviously, I accept it to some degree - as I do many of the benefits of our modern society.

Too many people think you can have this system or that system set up, and it will be self-regulating and run smoothly in perpetuity. To my knowledge, this has never been true for very long in this world (in recorded history, anyway) for capitalism, anarchism (I'm sure Barak will correct me if I'm wrong), fascism, socialism, or any other isms - even if you tack "free-market" on as a prefix.

I am a "social conservative", I guess - and a "constitutionalist" (yeah, I'm still stuck on that). I think "free-market ideals" are worth striving for whenever possible within reason (which, I think, should be most of the time). But I am honest enough to admit some indulgence in "socialism" (even when I don't work a union job). I'm betting that darned few anti-union individuals have the honesty to face up to that in themselves - but it should give pause when you point your indignant finger at hard-working (yes, I know there are exceptions) union members.

Now excuse me....I wonder if I should step into the community bomb shelter?

Im pretty sure my uncle was union....matter of fact I know he was. He has really good health coverage now. He is in such poor health that I dont know what my aunt would do if he did not. His rheumatoid is crippling him. The alzheimers is progressing at a moderate rate. My aunt said if he did not have his boilermaker benefits, his medications would be 2k per month! My aunt and uncle were really good financial planners so they have a home and retirement in the bank. When my uncle found out he had the initial stages of alzheimers, he sold a patent on a thing he invented for Alabama Power (something he welded for the use in the boilers...???) I dont have a clue what its for but I remember when he made it Alabama Power tried to get him to sell the rights to it. He held on to his creation until he was diagnosed. Alabama Power gave him a handsome price for the patent so now, not only is his retirement taken care of, my Aunt's is as well. She never worked outside the home. He always said she was deserving of a greater retirement than he because she kept and managed the home and children.
I will pass along your cordial salutation to them!

WEll, just when you think it can't get any worse, my sister-in-law's hot water heater needs replacing. TOTAL COST for the heater for a top of the line Whirlpool was 280 bucks at Loew's. Wanna guess what the UNION plumber wants to charge for the installation? And BTW, the unit's in a garage, simple drive the truck right up, turn off the power, unscrew the old one (no brazing req) and that's it. TWO HUNDRED NINETY FIVE BUCKS. Give me a friggin' break. jorge

Yes,but whorehayI you'll get turned on looking at the crack of his ass and for you,thats money well spent.You could probably even wear that [bleep] leisure suit/flight suit in your avatar,while watching him..Thats a pretty cheap 300 bucks for a guy like you whorehayI.

If it's that easy you don't need to hire someone to do it. You just described the process. Apparently any monkey can change a water heater.

WhorehayI,he just likes to handle other peoples pipe.Evidently his brother is just as useless,or he'd install it himself.

Exactly. And I'm sure Sledder could do it after watching the monkey a few times, if he can pry his eyes away from his tecostal foliage as apparently that's part of the price and his predilection on the subject. Where there's smoke....There's a (pole)smoker....jorge

psst: hey sledder, it's my sister-in-law, no brother involved, but my mistake in over-taxing your zygot capacity.

Same sex marriage huh? That runs frequently in your family doesn't it.

sledder....
You need to back up and check yourself....
You are making an ass out of yourself....

Not to worry Bart, obviously we're talking way above his ability to grasp a simple concept. Point being, the THUG tried to take advantage of a lady by charging her almost 300 bucks for a simple installation, but apparently to him that's perfectly acceptable. I'll stop picking on our microcephalic forumite, but somebody needs to help him with his stent to relieve the pressure. jorge

He estimated the going rate for his services. She's free to shop around. It doesn't make him a thug to charge more than the next guy.

He might not be worth what he thinks he is but I've seen what kind of work you get from the lowest bidder too. It's a free market and if he's still in business he must be doing something right.

Earlier someone mentioned the exorbitant fees that lawyers charge. Are they worth it? It depends. A buddy defended himself successfully when he was charged with DWI once. Another buddy did his own divorce and it worked. I wouldn't recommend everyone DIY on stuff like that. If you can't do it yourself and don't have family or friends to cut you a deal you're at the mercy of the market no matter how seemingly "simple" the task at hand is.

Like it or not just any boob can install or swap a water heater. Some boobs would get electrocuted, some would flood their house or garage, and some might even manage to start a small electrical fire. For those boobs even the cost of a high dollar union guy is a bargain compared to the results they'd get.

what I can do is worth a lot, what you can do.......sure seems pricey!

that about right?


the folks that make a lot of money and often get rich are those that can get smart folks to pay a lot for their service and the smart folk realizing it was a bargain because of the value received.

You're wasting your time Sledder. You are dealing with a mexican and someone who likes to kill innocent people by dropping bombs on them. Both are SCABS and wouldn't know the meaning of a labor union. I agree with your post though.

"The women & children, how can you do it?" Easy, just don't lead them as much....

Steely: The locus of the discussion (the retard twins notwithstanding) is that 300 bucks to install a water heater in a garage is excessive. jorge

Well WhorehayI,lets say you aren't full of [bleep] and the install is 300 bucks,which I find hard to believe.Unless there's more to the install,then a simple fitting like you're portraying it.And I do believe you're making [bleep] up. However,I've had plenty of automotive repairs done by mechanics that aren't union and had the labor cost as much as parts. In this day and age its tough not to have labor cost as much as parts and I've never seen a union mechanic at a car dealership..

If you have permission (and know how)to phone, call Loew's and ask them for the installation costs. And there was nothing to it. Took me about an hour to swap out. I don't need to make stuff up to prove a point or to gain advantage in a discussion. But I fully understand why you have to. jorge

Jorge - the idiot responses notwithstanding (jeese - two in one thread!), 50/50 ratio on parts to labor ain't that unusual - even in this "union-unfriendly" state. Did anyone bother to get a bid from a non-union plumber (a professional one, that is)?

Sledder - you are a perfect example of the kind of guy who makes union labor look bad. Thanks a bunch! (not)

I'm dumping your butt in the can with 1gunner. Maybe sometime you can spend a little of your free time learning some manners and a better vocabulary. G'bye.....

FreeMe: I am sure that given appropriate research, she could have found a more reasonable plumber. I am FULLY on board that skilled labor is something that takes time to develop and be paid accordingly, but I obviously wanted to point out the extremes which was the focus of this discussion and an imortant component for the dire straits the big US automakers find themselves in. I guess I painted with too broad of a brush, although thanks to the two microcephalics here, the shoe obviously fits, but the 300 dollar charge is legit (actually 295.00). Cheers, jorge

Yeah, jorge - I'm not doubting what the charge was. Here's another thing I'm not doubting....If I contracted someone to do work on my property, and his mouth spewed the trash that we've seen from 1gunner and sledder in this thread, I would immediately remove them from my property and hire someone else. They could try their luck in getting any $ from me afterwards, but it wouldn't be easy or cheap.

jorgeI, Last winter the blower motor went in my five and a half year old furnace. I've never fixed a blower motor before (didn't know that was the problem) so I called the company that put it in. It was after hours so I had to pay $120 "after hours service fee". The guy shows up. Checks a few things, as mentioned it was the blower motor. He changes it. It cost $120 for the "after hours service fee", $120 labor and $170 for the blower motor. $410 from the same company that just put it in five and a half years ago.

I knew the guy though a friend so I asked the guy if he could wave the $120 "after hours service fee" since I was paying $120 labor and I saw the receipt he had for the blower motor. They paid $118 for it and charged me $170. He called the owner and he said no, I gotta pay the "after hours service fee". There was nothing I could, I paid it. I was talking to the guy and asked if he got paid "on call pay". He said all he got was time and a half for responding to calls, the owner gets the $120 "after hours service fee". The guy was paid $15 and hour and got $22.50 with time and a half. So there was $120 for labor, $120 for the service call, $52 mark up on the blower motor that was $292 minus the $45 for the guy THAT DID THE WORK, leaving $247 in the owners pocket.

Oh yeah, did I mention this was a non-union HVAC guy, showed up in a 15 year old van, had to have his own tools. Other then asking for a break on the "after hours service fee" did I complain....NOPE. I needed it done, paid the money, didn't have time to shop around in February when it was 10� outside with three kids and a wife to worry about. Hopefully I never have to do business with that company again and will have time to shop around.

The US automakers problem are their own fault. Get a job with one of them and find out for yourself. I started at Chrysler in 1997. At the time Chrysler employees made the company $660,000 that year per employee. That's profit after everything was paid. The average worker made just over $60,000 a year at the time or just under 10% of what they made the company. Ford was in even better shape at the time. Look at Ford now. How is it the Union or the workers fault the company couldn't manage things better to keep that trend going. All we can do is what the company lets us do. They design the products, give us the equipment to make them. There are two members of management in the Big Three to everyone in the German and Japanese auto industries. The German auto industry has just as many Union members if not more pre capita the US does. Management has destroyed the Big Three not the Union. Like I said get a job with one of them and find out for yourself.

I gave an example of what happens and how things are ran at my plant. Being a Union official myself and going to different Union functions and talking to other Local Unions in the Big Three this is common practice. Management can't manage!

I've found the same as FreeMe. Doubling the retail price of the item will give you a good idea of total cost including installation. Even half the cost of having a new house built goes towards labor.

I'd be curious to know if the new instalation had to be brought up to recently amended building codes?

Jorge even the auto companies get hosed on cost. I've quoted the cost to produce some pallets that are used in an automated parts transfer system. In two years I've never been awarded the quote, until a couple of weeks ago. I was asked to quote the job again. I told management to send the job out like what has been done previously. The engineer informed me that I would be making the part whether I wanted the job or not. I started machining the pallets, one of the maintenance foremen from the area that uses the pallets saw what I was working on and came over for a chat. He told me they were paying $1000.00 per pallet that were being purchased from an outside machine shop. My material cost per piece is under $100.00. I'm machining the pallets in 30 minutes (labor cost of $78.00 per hour). Doesn't take long to figure how much money is being saved, especially figuring the order was for 30 pallets. Then I have to go to meetings and hear how we're a cost burden, we don't add value to the product we produce.

Guys there ain't no need for personal attacks................ nuff said.

AJ300MAG, I'll go even farther. When we get vendor scrap, which happens quite often. None of our contracts with our vendor allows use to be refunded for the scrap. Our plant losses MILLIONS OF DOLLARS A YEAR from this! The Union doesn't have anything at all to do with it. We try to get the company to go after the vendors. They have more important things to do I guess. I wonder why this type of stuff never makes it on the news?

I agree with this 100%.

As I also agree, but surely you can understand if a retaliatory riposte in self-defense is acceptable. Lots of good data here folks, but I'll just comment on the 60k/annum for the average autoworker according to your figures. That's more than the starting salary for many professions including mine. A Navy Lt Aviator back then did not make that much and he had a four year college degree, almost three years of flight training, a supervisory position as a Division or Branch Officer in a Squadron supervising anywhere from 20 to 60 men, Spent many months deployed away from home & family not to mention night carrier landings

I'd be interested to know what the starting salaries were in 1997 numbers for:
A.doctors
B.lawyers
C.engineers
D.CPAs
E.college professors

And I still say that 295 bucks to install a water heater was excessive. Loew
s contracts the work out to locals. jorge

Jorge - that others make less really isn't a valid issue. There are lots of other variables in the story, but the fact is that when bargaining for wages the union generally has to show that there is comparable value to the work being performed. They must have a good case, or their position is indefensible in the structure of labor law.

And other crafts may earn less but have other benifits that don't get taxed. Teachers, for instance, have pretty good job-security and can locate just about anywhere they want.

Even you can choose to take your on-the-job flight training and apply it to a much more lucrative position in the civilian world.

BTW - many thanks to all those who use their military training in the military!

Jorge am thinking the 60k includes overtime. IIRC as a skilled trades worker my hourly rate was less than $27.00 an hour back in 97. There are years I made more than 60k, at the same time I was working darn near 3000 hours a year.

but I'll just comment on the 60k/annum for the average autoworker according to your figures. That's more than the starting salary for many professions including mine. A Navy Lt Aviator back then did not make that much and he had a four year college degree, almost three years of flight training, a supervisory position as a Division or Branch Officer in a Squadron supervising anywhere from 20 to 60 men, Spent many months deployed away from home & family not to mention night carrier landings


---- Yes whorehayI,a lt doesn't make 60 k a year and he shouldn't. He isn't working for a fortune 500 company or better,that shows profits in the billions.Instead he works for the goverment,recieves free room and board,clothing,medical and what ever else he can qualify for.I guess if thats not good enough,quit living off the goverment and get a real job.-----

I'd be interested to know what the starting salaries were in 1997 numbers for:
A.doctors They start at 70k
B.lawyers depending on the firm 50k to 150k
C.engineers 65k if you can find one for that
D.CPAs 60k
E.college professors at a junior college with nothing but a bachelors filling in for another professor,easily 60k

And I still say that 295 bucks to install a water heater was excessive. Loew
s contracts the work out to locals. jorge


---So what did you want them to do whorehayI,find someone three states away to drive in and fix it free of charge.---

It's not like most union folks don't have training. Some people spend four years in college and can't plan piping layouts, cut the pipe to fit, and sweat the fittings to make the raw materials into a functioning plumbing system. Others spend about the same amount of time in an apprenticeship, which includes 144 hours a year in a classroom along with many hours of on the job training and develop those skills. Those that can't do it themselves are forced to hire others to do it for them. If they want a quality job done in a timely manner it's generally beneficial to hire a quality person with good skills and those don't come cheap.

So the guy's rate is what it is. Does the doctor charge less for an office visit for someone with an ear infection than someone with cancer? Nope.

One of my friends is a lawyer and she charges $250 an hour when she's working like that. Some cases she bills at a fixed rate if it's simple but whether the guy is accused of rape or shoplifting her time and skills go for what they do and the plumber should be no different just because someone else looks at him as a knuckledragging blue collar guy.

The plumber would have had to drive to the house with the parts and spend time, even if it wasn't mentally difficult, to get the job done and his time and knowledge is what he's charging you for.

The best part of all of this,is whorehays sister in law buys into the whole bullsh!t theory that you get more for your life at a big box store.Then she lacks the ability and her husband/boyfriend or wife/girlfriend lacks the ability to install the waterheater.So now they have to crawl to the guy who does have the ability to install this water heater and then they have the balls to complain when the guy charges them to install it.In fact the plumber in question is probably so tired of fixing lowes(not loews whorehay)[bleep] ups. That he charges more then if you'd have done business with him up front in the first place..

This whole problem you've chosen to air on the net whorehay,is all your own doing. But somehow in your own twisted mind its somehow a union problem.

I see it very differently....
I see you are a disrespectful jackass....
sledder...You are a fool...

IIRC we were require to have 8000 hours (documented) of work experience and formal classroom training to qualify for a journeyman's card. The course outline was set up by the federal government.

Bart it ain't worth the trouble...........................

I know...
I told y'all about my character flaw that makes me scream "YOU STINK" at every turd I come across...

The good ones can tell someone where to go, how to get there and what to do once they arrive.......................... and make em think it was a compliment.










I ain't one of those either

It's not "just" the fault of the UAW. They don't design the cars, just build em. It's a combination of a lot of things as you mention. However, I just spent a week shopping for a car for my daughter (bought a Honda Accord) and drove Chevies, Fords, Toyotas, Nissans, VWs, and Mazdas. The Japanese cars were miles ahead in quality for the $$. Even though the Honda was assembled in Tennessee, the quality was much better than an Impala which was the same price. I have a 2006 F150 that I have had multitudes of quality issues. It's on it's 2nd camshaft, because it wasn't "assembled" right the first time. I've had 4 Toyotas including two Landcruisers and 2 Hondas. Each of my Toyotas has gone 200K+ miles with "ZERO" problems. One Honda has 145K+ (so far) Gas/oil/tires/brakes - that's it.

The consumer doesn't care if it's mgt, the union or what - they want value for the $$. When unionized products cost more and you are getting less - you spend you money elsewhere. Simple economics. Chysler/GM/Ford are bleeding red ink. Toyota and Honda are making money hand over fist. hmmmmmm---wonder why?

Actually bart,since you'd like to get in on this also.Lets run your situation by you.


Here about a month ago you're crying about some coworker that supposedly threatened you. At the time I didn't think much about it.You whine on here all the time anyway,nothing was unusual. Then weeks later,you post that you now are out of work due to a disability.Pretty convienant

I've seen your situation before bart. You got tired of working every day,so you figured you'd try the company lotto out and see if you couldn't get a pay out.That didn't work,but you did start a paper trail for yourself,in hopes of later being able to make it pay.Not only that,employers have gotten fed up with bickering in the work place among coworkers,so they've resorted to firing both involved parties and allowing a labor board to sort it out and possibly taking back the employee that is found innocent. You were informed of this bart by your union local,at which time you decided to "let it be".

Problem is,you still didn't want to go to work. So you resorted to the most popular ploy and that is "injury due to residual exsposure to the work place"You can always find a doctor that will agree that some damage or injury to your body,is the result of years in the work place.Unions and retirement boards even have these doctors on retainer.It also only works with a union job,because union workers are covered under the federal medical act,which actually compensates for injury.Rather then hand out 50 dollars for a lost arm like workers comp does.

Bart,you had what 12 years with a union and you hate them,but the fact is you'd still have to work like everyone else,if it weren't for their superior medical coverage.

You're not alone bart,I've seen arseholes go out and get a shrink in order to lay down a paper trail,only to later have a doctor discover that they have a bad disc in their back.Usually the result of water skiing or some other nonwork injury,that they still end up pawning off as work related. Judging by your pictures you've posted on here bart,I'd say your back problems are related to your oversized gut.A similar situation pregnant women have.



Don't cry to rick either,just because the cats out of the bag. You're not the only american in their 40's that is using a phoney personal injury to avoid work.

Folks, it's ok really. Sledder's obviously an illiterate moron who obviously can't read or comprehend anything above the level of a cretin as if he actually READ what I posted above, I installed the heater myself in about an hour.

On the issue of Navy pay, he once again demonstrates his zygot intelligence by failing to comprehend BACK THEN that LTs didn't make that much. But just to really pi$$ you off sledder, Navy LT's make close to 85K and that not including the 100K bonus for re-upping after their 8 year mark, and we are STILL underpaid. A Carrier CO with close to five thousand people working for him for example, a multi-BILLION dollar enterprise to run, not to mention the responsibility, only pulls in about 120k/year.

WE can make a LOT more on the outside, but there is such a thing as DUTY, something which obviously escapes your chickenshit, noload azz. Oh and one more thing, when I retire next year on a 75K retirement after thirty years, I already have a job lines up with one of those Fortune 500 companies you loathe for a LOT more than I'm making now. Doesn't that just make your day? jorge

Wow....
You should move out of your parents house and go to Hollywood...
Remember...Never ASSUME too much....
You also forgot that my achilles tendon has separated from the bursa sack on my right heel....
Also....You type like you ain't scared of much...

So what the [bleep] are you crying about whorehay. Its sounds like you're being over paid.

You are the foremost expert on handling load though.

sledder...
Who do you deliver pizzas for?

How the Fishing out there Jorge? Bartyou been to the lake lately? Les

So bart whats the real story on the achilles tendon. You're just out of shape and overweight.Coupling this with your back injury will help even more with the personal injury claim. Sounds like you've got it figured out. Pretty typical those that are really injured work anyway,those like you bart play the system to the hilt.Probably one of the few downsides to unions.

Bart, are the Bass still biting there in the big lake? Les

I got something hooked as we speak....

I see that, looks to me like a bottom sucking carp.

V22: Bad day for fishing here in P'Cola today, even had a couple of Tornadoes touch down. Heavy rain & thunder right now. jorge

Ya keepin yer head down then I take it? C'mon, are you telling me a little bit of a wind will keep you from dropping lines?

So bart whats your fictional work related injury going to pay out. Or are you still in limbo and hoping this act you're playing actually pays out. I'd say you're still waiting.

One thing I wouldn't do bart.I wouldn't go running around like you have been. These damn companies are getting smart.They've started videoing your silly ass bart,doing all the physical [bleep] at home that supposedly you can't do at work. Don't worry bart,they haven't seen you playing with yourself.Yet.Anyway,they knew you played with yourself at work also.So it wont help their case.

Hey Les....
You smell something?

What barts trying to say,is he's still trying to get the taste out of his mouth from the last one he gave.

Barts kinda silly.He's totally convinced that these blow jobs he gives are going to lower unemployment in texas.

Sledder the more you're on this post the more of the non-union mexican scabs come out of the woodwork. They come on here and knock anyone that doesn't agree with their political ideals and when you express your opinions they yell for Rick to kick you off the site. I believe their version of freedom of speech was invented in Communist China. When Rick won't help them they yell back and forth like a pack of dogs with a sore azz.

deleted

Yes,enough has been said. Bart has ran to rick already and I got a pm about it from rick.

That is a lie....

Perfect example of what I am talking about. Read Iviolatedmymommy's latest post. Him and his buddies can say whatever they want and fall under their umbrella of protection. Then you will get a PM from you know who. A real level ball field isn't it.

Ricks pissed. I can't comment anymore. Bart really threw a fit.

I think its based on how much money you spend on here.Buying mcmillans and whatever else.

Another lie...

sledder:

I sent you a private message to tone it down. Note the private.

Now, I'm going to tell it to you straight, in unequivocal terms:

NOBODY has sent me a PM or emailed me about you, or 1gunner, or about that this thread, or about anything remotely having to do with it.

Your next move is to either back off and admit you're wrong, or call me a liar.

You guys can fight among yourselves all you want, but guess what, I'm going to put you all in a communal PM and you can beat your brains in about it to your heart's content in there, away from the public airwaves.

KIDS READ THIS BOARD!

Have some character.

Rick Bin

And that is the truth.

Bart:

How many McMillans have you bought off me, ever?

Sledder....I bet you get alot of calls to socialize with folks.

It's sad that intelligent, hard working Americans have been hoodwinked into bickering amoungst themselves, and casting insults.
It doesn't matter how many universities you build or how good citizen's work ethic is, only a small percentage can be at the top of the pay scale in any society.
Put the blame where you will, but, when the masses in the USA are reduced to a third-world living standard via global "competition" and the importation of cheap labor (to do the "jobs Americans don't want") things will get ugly - fast.
Of course, the elites will just move away and run their service busineses from off-shore havens.
Sound far-fetched?

Zero...

And that's the truth.

Thanks rick.

I apologize to most everyone for my outburst, Sorry Rick, won't happen again. Les

Gentlemen:

Unfortunately, I must inform you that we have received a threat of being hacked from 1gunner. Normally I would not be too alarmed, however, along with the threat, there is corroborating activity at various server levels which indicates that someone is trying to fool with the server right now.

As such, and despite the graphic nature of the following, I felt it important to put this on the public record immediately, because nobody is immune from foul play, and if the site goes down, we'll have a slight clue as to who did it.

The following was sent by 1gunner to a member here that will not be named, and I confirmed it with the member's permission, after asking 1gunner point blank if he had sent it, and receiving a straight denial:

Go [bleep] yourself you stupid assclown. You can also suck Rick's dick while you're at it. If you wish you can send him a copy of this. I don't really give a good [bleep]. Please remember one thing though. I am a very good computer programmer and I can very easily hack into any site I want to. This site would be especially easy. Have a nice day you come sucking mexican bitch!

We have already made backups, and we have people standing by, so if the poop hits the fan, we'll do our best.

1gunner, for obvious reasons, is no longer welcome at the Campfire.

Happy Holidays.

rb

Wow. I guess some people go a bit over the top when people disagree with them. I'm glad most of us aren't that unstable.

Isn't hacking a criminal activity? Like federal felony?

1gunner, you pathetic asswipe, why don't you crawl back under your bridge. Of all the trolls that have been through here, you are about the stupidest and least entertaining one I can remember.

.280 says he thinks so....on a state and federal level. Much akin to shutting down a business. TIs basically computer criminal mischief. Reckon we got enuff lawyers here to get this handled???

Steve,
You need to pay attention to sledder...He's just as pathetic as 1gunner was....Was...

Wow Bart,so much for you behaving on here.

Oops, didn't see he was banned already. I lamped this guy for trouble from about his eighth post. Bad seed.

BTW hacking a protected computer...i.e. gov't, medical, critical infrastructure etc. is a federal felony 18 USC 1030 or so, don't know about the penalty for hacking a private website like Ric's, but there are some. I would happily help prosecute that swine pro bono, although a half wit living in his mother's basement and working the graveyard shift at Domino's probably can't pay a judgment.

I'm surprised you chimed in....
I thought that you were having too much fun with your filthy PM's...

hadn't much noticed him until I started looking at this thread...which I had ignored for days just because 1nutter was so incoherent and disruptive it wasn't worth looking at. I can see your point, though, based on the last few pages.

That wasn't the starting salary. That was the "average salary". There were WAY MORE people that had been there for a while making top rate then there were new hires.

Yes that was working overtime. Our plant worked 6 and 7 days a week back then (some departments still do to this day). More often then not it was mandatory (and some times it still is). I believe the production rate was just under $20 an hour plus cost of living and piece work.

funny how it don't take long to figure out who'd you enjoy a brew with ain't it.

there's several of you it'd be a pleasure for me to buy you a cold one.

Including the guy that pays the bills round these parts.

I think 1nutter is having enough problems with his own computer....now...not that I did anything....

Hey - thanks, Rick! Sorry this thread got tainted.

Ngrumba -

The cost thing made a lot of difference back when Japanese cars weren't so great (yes - I remember those days). Now - not so much. There are some "Japanese" cars that cost as much or more than comparable "American" cars, yet still sell well. Many people (like myself) shop quality first and price second. Those of us who can afford it tend to do that as we age and tire of dealing with stuff that fails prematurely or is otherwise hard to live with.

Union labor can't break a company that is run by competent management. And the Management is the company. They set the agenda and the tone for everything.