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If you have permission (and know how)to phone, call Loew's and ask them for the installation costs. And there was nothing to it. Took me about an hour to swap out. I don't need to make stuff up to prove a point or to gain advantage in a discussion. But I fully understand why you have to. jorge

Jorge - the idiot responses notwithstanding (jeese - two in one thread!), 50/50 ratio on parts to labor ain't that unusual - even in this "union-unfriendly" state. Did anyone bother to get a bid from a non-union plumber (a professional one, that is)?

Sledder - you are a perfect example of the kind of guy who makes union labor look bad. Thanks a bunch! (not)

I'm dumping your butt in the can with 1gunner. Maybe sometime you can spend a little of your free time learning some manners and a better vocabulary. G'bye.....

FreeMe: I am sure that given appropriate research, she could have found a more reasonable plumber. I am FULLY on board that skilled labor is something that takes time to develop and be paid accordingly, but I obviously wanted to point out the extremes which was the focus of this discussion and an imortant component for the dire straits the big US automakers find themselves in. I guess I painted with too broad of a brush, although thanks to the two microcephalics here, the shoe obviously fits, but the 300 dollar charge is legit (actually 295.00). Cheers, jorge

Yeah, jorge - I'm not doubting what the charge was. Here's another thing I'm not doubting....If I contracted someone to do work on my property, and his mouth spewed the trash that we've seen from 1gunner and sledder in this thread, I would immediately remove them from my property and hire someone else. They could try their luck in getting any $ from me afterwards, but it wouldn't be easy or cheap.

jorgeI, Last winter the blower motor went in my five and a half year old furnace. I've never fixed a blower motor before (didn't know that was the problem) so I called the company that put it in. It was after hours so I had to pay $120 "after hours service fee". The guy shows up. Checks a few things, as mentioned it was the blower motor. He changes it. It cost $120 for the "after hours service fee", $120 labor and $170 for the blower motor. $410 from the same company that just put it in five and a half years ago.

I knew the guy though a friend so I asked the guy if he could wave the $120 "after hours service fee" since I was paying $120 labor and I saw the receipt he had for the blower motor. They paid $118 for it and charged me $170. He called the owner and he said no, I gotta pay the "after hours service fee". There was nothing I could, I paid it. I was talking to the guy and asked if he got paid "on call pay". He said all he got was time and a half for responding to calls, the owner gets the $120 "after hours service fee". The guy was paid $15 and hour and got $22.50 with time and a half. So there was $120 for labor, $120 for the service call, $52 mark up on the blower motor that was $292 minus the $45 for the guy THAT DID THE WORK, leaving $247 in the owners pocket.

Oh yeah, did I mention this was a non-union HVAC guy, showed up in a 15 year old van, had to have his own tools. Other then asking for a break on the "after hours service fee" did I complain....NOPE. I needed it done, paid the money, didn't have time to shop around in February when it was 10� outside with three kids and a wife to worry about. Hopefully I never have to do business with that company again and will have time to shop around.

The US automakers problem are their own fault. Get a job with one of them and find out for yourself. I started at Chrysler in 1997. At the time Chrysler employees made the company $660,000 that year per employee. That's profit after everything was paid. The average worker made just over $60,000 a year at the time or just under 10% of what they made the company. Ford was in even better shape at the time. Look at Ford now. How is it the Union or the workers fault the company couldn't manage things better to keep that trend going. All we can do is what the company lets us do. They design the products, give us the equipment to make them. There are two members of management in the Big Three to everyone in the German and Japanese auto industries. The German auto industry has just as many Union members if not more pre capita the US does. Management has destroyed the Big Three not the Union. Like I said get a job with one of them and find out for yourself.

I gave an example of what happens and how things are ran at my plant. Being a Union official myself and going to different Union functions and talking to other Local Unions in the Big Three this is common practice. Management can't manage!

I've found the same as FreeMe. Doubling the retail price of the item will give you a good idea of total cost including installation. Even half the cost of having a new house built goes towards labor.

I'd be curious to know if the new instalation had to be brought up to recently amended building codes?

Jorge even the auto companies get hosed on cost. I've quoted the cost to produce some pallets that are used in an automated parts transfer system. In two years I've never been awarded the quote, until a couple of weeks ago. I was asked to quote the job again. I told management to send the job out like what has been done previously. The engineer informed me that I would be making the part whether I wanted the job or not. I started machining the pallets, one of the maintenance foremen from the area that uses the pallets saw what I was working on and came over for a chat. He told me they were paying $1000.00 per pallet that were being purchased from an outside machine shop. My material cost per piece is under $100.00. I'm machining the pallets in 30 minutes (labor cost of $78.00 per hour). Doesn't take long to figure how much money is being saved, especially figuring the order was for 30 pallets. Then I have to go to meetings and hear how we're a cost burden, we don't add value to the product we produce.

Guys there ain't no need for personal attacks................ nuff said.

AJ300MAG, I'll go even farther. When we get vendor scrap, which happens quite often. None of our contracts with our vendor allows use to be refunded for the scrap. Our plant losses MILLIONS OF DOLLARS A YEAR from this! The Union doesn't have anything at all to do with it. We try to get the company to go after the vendors. They have more important things to do I guess. I wonder why this type of stuff never makes it on the news?

I agree with this 100%.

As I also agree, but surely you can understand if a retaliatory riposte in self-defense is acceptable. Lots of good data here folks, but I'll just comment on the 60k/annum for the average autoworker according to your figures. That's more than the starting salary for many professions including mine. A Navy Lt Aviator back then did not make that much and he had a four year college degree, almost three years of flight training, a supervisory position as a Division or Branch Officer in a Squadron supervising anywhere from 20 to 60 men, Spent many months deployed away from home & family not to mention night carrier landings

I'd be interested to know what the starting salaries were in 1997 numbers for:
A.doctors
B.lawyers
C.engineers
D.CPAs
E.college professors

And I still say that 295 bucks to install a water heater was excessive. Loew
s contracts the work out to locals. jorge

Jorge - that others make less really isn't a valid issue. There are lots of other variables in the story, but the fact is that when bargaining for wages the union generally has to show that there is comparable value to the work being performed. They must have a good case, or their position is indefensible in the structure of labor law.

And other crafts may earn less but have other benifits that don't get taxed. Teachers, for instance, have pretty good job-security and can locate just about anywhere they want.

Even you can choose to take your on-the-job flight training and apply it to a much more lucrative position in the civilian world.

BTW - many thanks to all those who use their military training in the military!

Jorge am thinking the 60k includes overtime. IIRC as a skilled trades worker my hourly rate was less than $27.00 an hour back in 97. There are years I made more than 60k, at the same time I was working darn near 3000 hours a year.

but I'll just comment on the 60k/annum for the average autoworker according to your figures. That's more than the starting salary for many professions including mine. A Navy Lt Aviator back then did not make that much and he had a four year college degree, almost three years of flight training, a supervisory position as a Division or Branch Officer in a Squadron supervising anywhere from 20 to 60 men, Spent many months deployed away from home & family not to mention night carrier landings


---- Yes whorehayI,a lt doesn't make 60 k a year and he shouldn't. He isn't working for a fortune 500 company or better,that shows profits in the billions.Instead he works for the goverment,recieves free room and board,clothing,medical and what ever else he can qualify for.I guess if thats not good enough,quit living off the goverment and get a real job.-----

I'd be interested to know what the starting salaries were in 1997 numbers for:
A.doctors They start at 70k
B.lawyers depending on the firm 50k to 150k
C.engineers 65k if you can find one for that
D.CPAs 60k
E.college professors at a junior college with nothing but a bachelors filling in for another professor,easily 60k

And I still say that 295 bucks to install a water heater was excessive. Loew
s contracts the work out to locals. jorge


---So what did you want them to do whorehayI,find someone three states away to drive in and fix it free of charge.---

It's not like most union folks don't have training. Some people spend four years in college and can't plan piping layouts, cut the pipe to fit, and sweat the fittings to make the raw materials into a functioning plumbing system. Others spend about the same amount of time in an apprenticeship, which includes 144 hours a year in a classroom along with many hours of on the job training and develop those skills. Those that can't do it themselves are forced to hire others to do it for them. If they want a quality job done in a timely manner it's generally beneficial to hire a quality person with good skills and those don't come cheap.

So the guy's rate is what it is. Does the doctor charge less for an office visit for someone with an ear infection than someone with cancer? Nope.

One of my friends is a lawyer and she charges $250 an hour when she's working like that. Some cases she bills at a fixed rate if it's simple but whether the guy is accused of rape or shoplifting her time and skills go for what they do and the plumber should be no different just because someone else looks at him as a knuckledragging blue collar guy.

The plumber would have had to drive to the house with the parts and spend time, even if it wasn't mentally difficult, to get the job done and his time and knowledge is what he's charging you for.

The best part of all of this,is whorehays sister in law buys into the whole bullsh!t theory that you get more for your life at a big box store.Then she lacks the ability and her husband/boyfriend or wife/girlfriend lacks the ability to install the waterheater.So now they have to crawl to the guy who does have the ability to install this water heater and then they have the balls to complain when the guy charges them to install it.In fact the plumber in question is probably so tired of fixing lowes(not loews whorehay)[bleep] ups. That he charges more then if you'd have done business with him up front in the first place..

This whole problem you've chosen to air on the net whorehay,is all your own doing. But somehow in your own twisted mind its somehow a union problem.

I see it very differently....
I see you are a disrespectful jackass....
sledder...You are a fool...

IIRC we were require to have 8000 hours (documented) of work experience and formal classroom training to qualify for a journeyman's card. The course outline was set up by the federal government.

Bart it ain't worth the trouble...........................

I know...
I told y'all about my character flaw that makes me scream "YOU STINK" at every turd I come across...