The 30 year old man that I reported on a few weels ago that was hit in the face with the rifle bolt is doing fine.
The rifle was a Mossberg and he had purcahserd it only a few days before the incident. Apparently the pin attaching the bolt lugs to the bolt body broke and this allowed the bolt handle to close without the lugs fully closeing and when he fired the rifle the bolt flew out and hit him in the face.

Oh man ... I hate to admit it, but I'm sitting here laughing my butt off ... I don't revel in the tragedy of others, but that really IS funny ... especially since he's doing ok ...

background "music:"

Lawyers humming and whistling in gleeful anticipation.

Would of been a helluva loaner rifle....

What a design feature!

Mossberg Bolt action...... Required reconstructive surgery to face...

Not laughing here.

Boys, there, but for the grace of God, go we.

Ya never know when something's going to give.

Glad he's going to be OK.

rb

Who is making rifles for Mossberg now? At one time Howa was but I doubt that a Howa rifle did that.

No doubt the background music is a stirring rendition of "We're In the Money!"

Me either.
Poor fellas gonna be screwed up for quite some time.....
What a cheap design.

About a week after I heard about this incident, I ran into an old high school buddy of mine who told me that the hunter, Heath Ryder, worked for him. He said the rifle had been purchased new about 2 weeks prior to the incident and had been fired less than a half dozen times with factory ammo only. The damage was quite extensive and could have been fatal if he had not been hunting with a group of family members who got him evacuated quickly. Apparently destroyed the lower left mandible and most of the soft tissue (lips, and cheek). Will be in for several re-constructive surgeries before he is functional again. Luckily no eye damage. I'd say he was due some compensation for his injuries. I bet some of the ones snickering here would be wanting some too, had they had a bolt from a defective rifle blow through their face.

Not laughing here either, I think it takes a screwed up person to laugh at other peoples misfortune.

Glad to hear Mr. Ryder is going to be okay. Definitely, no laughing matter.

Anybody who snickers over this draws curses down onto his own head.

to be clear, I feel awful about the incident, and about the tragedy that it is ... what I was laughing about, is the simple mental image of the bolt flying backwards upon firing ... it just reminded me of something I'd see in a cartoon.

Like I said, I don't revel in other people's misfortunes, and I'm damn glad it wasn't me ... I hope to God that something like this never happens to me or anyone I know ... or anyone else for that matter ...

Just a reminder to those who don't wear eye protection while shooting; TIME TO START!

Bad deal this.

I'll second that. I had a .45 case rupture and I caught little pieces of brass in the side of my face. No eye protection, it could have been bad.

Twisted.

2crow,

Don't get me wrong here because I understand your point and agree 100%. However, I think when you have a catastrophic failure like this only the grace of God will protect you. My best wishes to the poor guy.

WGM,

Nice.

Mike

Damn shame IMHO, how the heck some of the stuff that passes QC these days.

I assume he bought this rifle used?


Casey

I was told by his uncle that he purchased the rifle new, just a few days before the incident.

Here is a Savage bolt lug section. I don't have one here to understand its complete function.



So far I can't find a sketch of the Mossberg bolt.

The lugs were pinned to the bolt?!!

Is that official?

Seems to me that over time a pin would shear from the backthrust generated on the bolt body.

What kind of engineer would come up with an idea like that?

I see your pic now. I didn't before I made my previous post.

It's easy to see how it's assembled. The entire head of the bolt is doweled to the bolt body and the dowel has a hole in it for the firing pin to pass through,... which obviously makes the dowel weak.

,... an accident waiting to happen,... and apparently,.. it did.

Wow.....




Casey

My cousin just bought a Mossberg(nib).Should he have a Smith look it over?

I'd sell it back to Mossberg....
Aren't the lugs and bolt on 'decent' rifles one piece???

He oughta take it back and get a decent rifle.

Same here. No laughing about that .

I was also told that a Lawyer in Florida contacted the family trying to find out the details of what happened. Seems that the exact same thing happened to someone else in Florida, with another Mossberg..

WGM,, One thing is clear on the Campfire,, ones creditability isnt defined by his number of posts,, That was just low,,you are one sick mutha...............

A recall will most certainly be issued.
I sure as hell wouldn't shoot one of those rifles.....

On page 15 of 16 in the linked Mossberg manual there is a picture of the bolt and how its assembled. It seems similar to the Savage.

http://www.mossberg.com/manuals/100ATR.pdf

Actually its common to hear laughter motivated by fear. This was explained by a disciple of Freud named Reich. I am just explaining its origin.

It don't give me any comfortable feeling looking at it, that's for sure....

http://www.mossberg.com/manuals/100ATR.pdf

Kinda reminds me of a hunter I had once. When we first met, he told me "I WILL kill my elk myself. You are never to shoot."

So, OK.

Fast forward to a few days later, when he gutshoots an elk in a dark downed pole-thicket patch. The elk is hopping around, trying to get unstuck and the nimrod's bolt handle fell off of his rifle. It was some kind of welded-on Mauser POS.

Anyway, he's screaming and cussing and vaulting after the elk and the elk is hopping and bleeding going all ratshit. Dave, a wrangler friend, of mine and I stood there for a while, just a little confused as to what's actually happening.

Could the city-slicker azzhole really want one of us ignorant guide-types to kill his elk????

Then, he held his bolt handle in the air and yelled, "My gun is broke, KILL THE BASTARD."

The elk did not survive; a .338" 200-grain Power Point severed its neck bone just below the ear. Good shot, Steve.

We could not get mules into the downed thicket, so all of the elp parts had to be high-stepped out under humam power (good job Dave and Steve). It was another ten o'clock arrival in camp ... tired, sweaty and stinkin'.

===============================================================

Fast forward again to the next year. The grunt came back and, as he got off the jet boat he said, "Thanks for last year. The bolt is welded solid, but you can collaborate anytime."

Sometimes city-slickers learn.

Steve

Hard to beleive that Mossberg could make such a dangerous design flaw.

Spot

From what I can see, it's essentially a clone of the Savage bolt design.

I'm guessing that there's a lot of sweating going on at the headquarters of both companies.

Now(IMO) that IS funny....

No schit...

From the design, and I'm no engineer, but just a WAG, would say that the pin in the Mossberg bolt can be undersized, or tempered wrong, and either fall out or sheer off. As likely a production problem for Mossberg as it is a design problem.... actually more likely than a design flaw.

Still, having the bolt designed to come apart from the lugs, don't sit well with me.

+1

Reminds me of when the bolt came right back in hand on Big Drift's brand new Rem 710 'bout 14 rounds into its first box of factory ammo.

It was not nearly as severe of an outcome, but sure gave me the heebies when contemplating the merits of certain "entry level" rifles.

GE

Dang. Me no like.
I've got two Savages. The bolt head is held to the bolt tube by a pin that is cottered by the firing pin. I would bet money the problem is bad tempering on that pin, breaking at the hole. Bummer. Otherwise, I'm not scared of it. Makes me happy I neck size only so I can feel the bolt close. Wow. Darn.

Heck, Dave,

Think of it this way; you can use the same cotter pin on either your Evinrude or your Savage. Cool, huh???

Steve

I skimmed thru the posts here, and saw a couple that called me out for my 'laughing' about this incident. I tried to clarify, but I guess that isn't good enough.

I'm not asking to change any of your minds about me. I don't think my post count says anything about my credibility, nor do I think anyone else's post count dictates theirs.

Regardless, I do feel I owe an apology, not to any of you, but to the man who suffered the incident, and to his family and friends. I just very recently had a good friend and business partner die, so I am no stranger to tragedy, and do not take delight in the tragedy of others. My first post was incomplete at best, and likely in poor taste as some of you have mentioned.

Those that 'know me' know I'm not the kind of person that my first post in this thread would indicate I am. For those not aware, please trust me on that point.

I sincerely hope that that this young man recovers better and faster than anyone might hope possible, and that the crappy design of the rifle he was using is scrapped, so that nobody else suffers the same tragedy.

WGM:

I figured it was a hastily drafted or incomplete post when I read it.

An explanation was not needed, but I'm good with it either way.

Yeah, things can happen quick. I'd hate to be on the wrong side of that screw-up!

rb

dude ... I got all freaked out about a month ago when I fired two rounds in a row from my .223 where the primers popped out of the brass ... warm hand loads using federal brass that'd been run about 3 firings so far ... 50g Vmax moly ... figured the first one was an anomaly, but after two in a row I called it 'normal' and pulled a quick halt ... dumped the other 38 loads and tossed ALL my Federal .223 brass ...

I think you get the point ... and I really do hope the guy turns out ok ...

Thanks WGM, I was bothered by your post but feel better about it now.

I'm sure John Edwards has contacted this gentleman by now.

Expat

I find it disappointing and callous of some in the riflemen brotherhood to laugh at such an accident. I hope it doesn't discourage all his family and friends to melt down there iron into plows.

fwiw,
That thought is anything but funny and was running through my mind before shooting a Blaser LRS2 at Sig a few weeks back. The exact thought of an unengaged .338 Lapua bolt running through my eye, brain, and skull was running through my mind the whole time...

All in all I'm beginning to come around to Finn Aagaards dictum of "Make mine a Mauser". Whether you shoot a 98, a 70, or a 700 you owe the basic safety factor to Peter Paul Mauser. I really wonder why some pursue change just for the sake of change, to be different, or to be cheaper. Some seem to persue change at the detriment of design and safety...imho

Regards, Matt.

trey can carry his own water, so to speak


but seems the original post stated that the young man would be fine

I thought that meant he'd escaped injury

wasn't till after trey posted "he thought it funny" that it came to light that indeed while the lad is going to live, he got pretty messed up for awhile at least if not have permanent damage.


had trey posted he thought it funny in spite of the man's injuries, it'd be a different story in my book,

but in light of that and his attempt at clarification, he gets a deserved pass in my book. YMMV

Not that I want to benefit from the shooter's tragic event here, but I can say now that I'll never buy one of these rifles. Unfortunately it may come down to "you get what you pay for." I always liked the look of these rifles as an entry level bolt gun for a new hunter, or someone who wanted an inexpensive back up rifle. 'Think I'll most likely stick with the known commmodities after reading this. 'Tough to go wrong with Remington, Winchester, or a Mauser. Good luck to the victim. 'Sounds like he's got a long road to recovery.

+1 AK, I didn't get that the guy had injuries of that level from the initial post either so I'm sure Trey deserves a pass.

Its sort of the same thing the bolt and bolt carrier do in an AR-15. If that round pin that locks the carrier to the bolt were broken or missing, it might have the same effect. think how many gazillion rounds get fired from ARs every year.

Frankly we all trust our lives to the engineering and manufacturer of our rifles..it shows how good even the bad ones are.

It does look similar to the Savage design. Never heard of a Savage having a failure in that area and the Savage pin is pretty massive.

That third lug on a 98 tends to make sure bolts don't come flying out backwards. Plus, the receivers tend to be soft enough that they rarely explode into hundreds of pieces like some of the newer rifles do.

Amen.

Thanks given that he will be alright.

Bob

YEP.....

Better entry level/backup rifles would include USED Remington 700/721/722,
Ruger 77, Winchester 70, Howa, etc.

Bob

They just never envisioned the pin breaking and not allowing the bolt to close. The obvious thing is that the pin would break upon firing. If that happened, the shooter is safe because of of the force is applied to the head and the lugs. Then, if the pin was broken, the bolt would be withdrawn but the head and the lugs would still be in the breach face.

Think about it, the pin wasn't broken when the bolt was cycled, because otherwise, the bolt head would have stayed in the breach face. But, it broke when the bolt was pushed home.

It was an unfortunate circumstance and probably not one foreseen by the engineers as that they envisioned any potential breakage happening while the bolt head was locked into the breach.

+1 to Matt's comments about design. I'm perfectly content to go through life with products and principles that work. New and better are different concepts.

I do hope our injured fellow hunter recovers quickly and to the greatest extent possible due to the grace of God and modern medicine.

To make light of another mans' tradgey is just about as bad and low as it gets. The best apology is not to say something this stupid in the first place. Surely you read your own post.

Yeah,.. I pondered the event quite a bit last night after seeing the construction of the bolt.

The only way that I can see that it happened is,.. the dowel broke at some point and eventually worked it's way completely out of the bolt body.

After that happened, the bolt was pushed into battery and turned,.. but the lugs weren't turned with the bolt and didn't engage.

no offence to the more knowlegable ppl on the board but the Savage 110 rifle has been around for 50 years and ive never heard of this happening with one of them........the Mossberg's been around about 3 years and this has happend twice now apparently...........find it hard to group the savage and the mossberg in the same catagory.......both have lugs pinned to the bolt but apparently only one of them actually works like its supposed to.

I'm not ready to pin any blame on the design. At this point, I would be looking very closely at the build cycle to see what might have been erroneously incorporated into the bolt, like a poorly heat treated part, or anything that would cause that to happen. I put the design as something to look at, but not the cause in this failure. It may ultimately be the design, but that will come out in the wash.
You never know how things get changed from the time a bsically good design progresses into production. Lots of things get changed that the design guys would NEVER bless. If Mossberg doesn't have good control over the process, a whole lot can get changed. Only a failure analysis will bring to light exactly what caused the bolt failure.

Don

I wouldn't lump Savage into this stew , either.

GTC

Nice pun! I'm not sure that pin really sees much of the load, though. The thing could be designed so that the bolt body absorbs the load, and the pin is just there to aligh the two pieces. Come to think of it, it could be designed so that the lugs index into the bolt body so that they would have to turn with the bolt, it seems.

Exactly!!!

That is what I thought of, and it would be the way to fix this particular kind of mishap.

Once again, we will not actually know what caused the failure untill a detailed Failure Analysis is performed. Anything we say now is pure speculation as to the cause.
Doing this stuff was a way of life for me for 12 years.

Don

couple things.
1. I used to have a RAPTOR ARMS rifle.The mossberg is an exact copy.I'm sure they either bought the machines or the idea from there.Mine wasnt the nicest rifle,plenty of flaws,but It had potential,although it was cheapened to the point of being very cheaply made.


2. alot of bolt actions have the lugs pinned on.One I have had is the browning a bolt. alot more have separate lugs,like the mosin nagant.I dont think the idea is flawed ,only the execution.

I'm impressed by the easy flow of uninformed but firm opinion here � in dramatic contrast with what I've always had to work so hard at and to offer so guardedly in reports, depositions, and sworn testimony.

That kinda stuff AIN'T funny!!!!
Hope all is well and he has a good atty!!!!!!!


George

Right on!

Meaning what? Surely you sre not suggesting that all of us here, with the exception of yourself, are total idiots, are you?

Bigbuck --Ken is often called upon as an expert witness in court cases that deal with what you chaps are speaking of. Pay attention and respect that old boy.

Oh, not Ken. He wouldn't do that.

That's a big stretch on your part, don't you think?
I sure don't get that out of his posting.

Me neither.

Ditto what Canuck said!!!

Until you learn the real knowledge available here, gained through experience, learning, evaluation, might keep in mind, just might be pointing a finger at a truckload, intead of a bucket full.

Not mentioning any truck brand here, that's for each to figure out on their own. There are a bunch of truckfulls on this forum.
Think you will find among the buckets some wisdom also, .

Nothing wrong with questions of course. Have asked plenty dumb or in wrong way myself.

I gotta claim ignorance as my excuse for misunderstanding what Ken said. Would someone please explain in terms that I might be able to understand?

Will speak for myself.

I learned they were pinned from the forum with this thread. I have sighted in six of those rifles since they came out. Standard procedure for sighting new rifle taken here, check function of mechanism, clean bore, screws tight, etc.

But, I did not look over design of mechanism, just a quick check that everything worked as was supposed too.

However, I can guarantee I will be checking to see how those lugs are pinned before I ever FIRE another one, then make the decision if I want to shoot it or not. I chalk my mistake up to trusting to a brand name, and probably should have studied the rifle more as it was "new" on the market.

As for what Ken posted, good to ask him to clarify for you. Have found him willing to help those who approach in the right way, IMO of course.

fwiw,
My comment was that there are new action designs that have failed to lock into battery and came back to bite the shooter. I can find nothing funny about a SCLID (Sudden Catastrophic Load Induced Disassembly). In this instance we might change that to mechanical failure induced disassembly. I was at Sig Sauer earlier this month and was invited to shoot their LRS2 in .308 and .338 Lapua Magnum. Another R93 in .338 Lapua, more than a few years back, failed to lock into battery and seriously injured the shooter upon firing in Europe. I've heard various reports about the damage the bolt did to the fellow's eye, skull, etc. I'm not reciting this from a court deposition, however, we did cover the R93 failure at The Colorado Shool of Trades in 05'.

No doubt the folks involved in this case will contact Dr. Howell for expert testimony and maybe a few years down the road he will share the failure analysis. Until the word from on high is converted into tablet form use your frame of reference to draw your own conclusions...

As to finding humor in a mechanical or load induced weapons failure I cannot. I've seen many weapon failures on the range and have seen a few that left the shooter with minor injuries. Thankfully everyone so far has escaped serious injury through luck or protective gear.

Rick said a mouthful with "But for the grace of God go we"...

Regards, Matt Garrett
757-581-6270

Is the LRS2 similar in operation to a R93? Did you fire the rifles?

If you fired them how did you know that they were locked?

Savage 99,
The LRS2 is a Tactical R93. Yes I fired both rifles. Shot a group with the .308 and the Lapua once. As far as KNOWING the bolt heads were locked into the barrel extension, I did not. The bolt was worked with alacrity while one of the Sig Reps stood at my side. I shot the rifles because we were expected to shoot the LRS2s, the Sig 556, and several pistols. The one thing I came away with, before we headed to Wilcox, was a desire to buy a new 220 Elite with their new Short Reset Trigger...

In short I could not gracefully get out of shooting the R93s...

Regards, Matt.

Well said Matt. I would have done the same thing.

The only good thing I get out of this is that the lugs did not fail, they failed to engage. It would not take many instances of lugs failing and a bolt squirting into a shooters face for me to be unable to shoot a bolt action. I can/will avoid Mossberg.

I'll try.

I do not know exactly what design or mechanical failure caused the bolt body to "escape" to the rear. I haven't examined the rifle and don't know who did � or how thoroughly or carefully he did � or, indeed, whether anybody really did.

Therefore I can not opine about why it happened.

Some can.

I can't.

Until I know and know how I know, I can not form a logical, intelligent opinion. To some, that makes me seem dumber (OK by me!). But that handicap doesn't deter everybody, obviously.

Got it now?

WGM, your post came across as being awfully insensitive. (grin)

I do know that if the original post had stated that the guy was undergoing reconstructive surgery, you would not have made such a joke, so don't sweat apologizing to everybody. The mental image of a rifle going bang and the bolt harmlessly blooping out of the action is morbidly amusing in the same way as the video of the guy getting dinged by the .50cal ricochet or the fat guy shooting the 600Nitro handgun.

As they say, "It's all fun and games till someone gets hurt."

I think we all feel sorry for the poor guy and wish him the best. Talking to JWP, he made a valid point: If the bolt didn't get you, what about all that hot gas in the backblast? Gives me the shivers......

Stories like this make me appreciate the Mauser 98 that much more.

at least a few of you understand how I read the first post of this thread, and what I was likely thinking in my puny head ...

had I read JWP's original post on this matter (which I can only assume explained the severity of the incident), I can promise you my response would have been different ...

Guys, I think that we should not jump to conclusions and beat up WGM. I feel that WGM has explained himself and that's that IMHO.
I was making a follow up post the one one made several weeks ago and in hind sight should have started from the beginning. The man is lucky to be alive.
His uncle told me that he had gotten out of his stand and was walking to were one of the ones that he was hunting with had killed a Deer. On the way over he spotted a Deer and fired and was thrown backwards and hit the ground. The others saw this and ran over to him and at first thought that he was dead. He regained consensus and said "what the [bleep] happened". One of them replied " your face is gone and we've got to get you out of here". Without there help he would have surely died. His nose and lips appeared to be gone. As it turned out the nose and lips were blown under the skin on the other side of his face and the doctor was able to re-attach them and reconstruct his upper jaw as it was shattered.

Thinking ahead here, but (let's assume the pin sheared or dropped out) it would be possible to keep that failure from producing the kaboom, if the firing pin would be prevented from dropping unless the lugs were aligned properly with the bolt body? FWIW, Dutch.

How anyone could laugh at anything this tragic is beyond me!

Another point that I hope will make the matter easier to handle:

I referred to opinions and the easy flow thereof, not to persons, intellects, or motivations. Stupidly, I assumed that that was clear enough not to be misunderstood.

Gothca! Thanks

I was with you from the start.

Mr. Howell,

Never, ever, overestimate the intelligence of the average internet expert.

It brings to mind the photoshop experts who immediately condemn any unusal picture with talk of shadows and lighting and whatever else they remember from watching JFK.

I was the one who said it wasn't a laughing matter. I think you have the wrong guy.

When I was quite young, I was with a fella that chambered a .303 British Round into a 7mm Rem Mag. The rifle was a Parker Hale 1100. The bolt stayed in the rifle, but had sheared a lug or two. The stock was split, and the trigger guard assembly had come apart. There was a lot of powder, brass, and steel in this guy's face. He went on to recover fully, after a large magnet was used to pull the steel from his eye and face. The sights and sounds of those few moments will stay with me forever, and define everything I know, and will ever learn about rifle safety. Upon later inspection, the .303 slug made it about 2 inches into the barrel. That rifle and bolt took the full force of that round, a fact that I am both amazed and thankful for. Things like this can happen to anyone, anytime. They not only affect the shooter, but everyone involved. Just thought I would share, and wish this fella, his hunting pards and family, a speedy recovery.
Make mine a Mauser as well.
R.

Hawkeye,, You are Right,, You are the Wrong guy, and confused

I am confused by confusing conduct. Next time you wish to criticize someone's statement, provide a quote identifying who you're criticizing, or at least hit reply from the post you wish to criticize, not from someone else's post. It's just the honorable and decent thing to do. I hope that's not asking too much of you.

Hawkeye,, I went back and read my post,, you are correct, I apologize,, no harm intended,, Randy

Good deal.

You're still confused though, bro'!!!

If that's a joke, Isaac, how about a smilie?

It was certainly a joke and I don't know how to do the smiley thingy!

And, I was getting tired of writing grin like a dumb-azz all the time.

But yeah....it was intended as fun...or more like smart-assed!


As long as I keep getting those awesome recipes, I'm going easier and I will just let the primaries do my talking...again, the grin.

Did you get the Pasta [bleep] recipe I gave to Mrs. 280 on the last food thread?

No, but I'll graciously accept it now! And thanks.

I'll PM it to you.

The design of the Mossberg is probably OK, but the manufacture and assembly certainly needs better quality control. Manufacturers try to reduce costs through component engineerng (cast vs. forged, stamping vs. milled, etc.). Nothing wrong with this approach, but it does require more attention to detail.

Shucks, that's so easy that even I can do it. Just type grin, smile, or wink between colons (:like this:) to get one of these:
: + grin + : =
: + smile + : =
: + wink + : =

There are others, too � for example:
� (eek)
� (sick)

When you see one in a post and want to see how to make it, click on Quote at the bottom of that post and study the results.

kwel

is there an actual news article we can read bout these incidents?

How are is the lug section on Rem 700 bolts attached?

That's a SAVAGE bolt.

Its a MOSSBERG that blew.

Savages BOLTS are plenty strong by design.

The Mossberg BOLTS have a different design.

Its the barrel nut that makes the two seem similar, not the bolts.

My 2 cents.

BMT

From looking at the picture of the Mossburg bolt, I get the impression that the lugs perform no usefull function at all.

Every bit of the bolt thrust force is dependent on that one pin, which likes it is about 1/4" in diameter.

Basically, what you have is a bolt being held in place by a 1/4" diameter pin. Compare the area and shear strength of the pin to the area of the lugs on an 03 Springfield, 98 Mauser, M700, M70, and especially the Mark 5 Wby.

The safety lug on an 03 is larger, and I would think, much stronger that the pin in the Mossburg, and some rifles even use the bolt handle base as an extra safety measure in the event the locking lugs somehow failed.

It looks like the least Mossburg could have done would have been to design a safety lug into the bolt, in the event the pin failed.

I wonder if any of these rifles were ever fired with proof loads before they left the factory. If so, then the proof load could have weakened the pin enough that a normal load would cause it to shear.

The lugs on a M700 are brazed or welded on. I wonder if any test have ever been made to determine how much force it would take to shear the lugs off a Remington bolt.

In my opinion, a shear pin is one of the weakest mechanical designs ever made. Some machines are made with a shear pin incorporated into the design so that the pin is the weakest link, and will shear before other, more extensive damage can occur.

It appears that Mossburg failed to read that particular page in that particular book.

Mossberg bolt head-like Savage without the baffle.

Your kidding, right????

The only force the pin will see is when the bolt is rotated. Your lack of mechanical knowledge is showing.

Sad to hear about the guy. These things do indeed happen. Saturday at the range here in town a guy had a slide fly back and take a chunk out of his face. I saw the guy bleeding and his buddy take him to the emergency room I guess. The range officer told me he was shooting Win. White box out of a cheap pistol (he told me the make but I didn�t recognize it and don�t remember). The range officer said the slide came apart and looked like it was made out of pot metal. Quality weapons are worth the investment IMHO.

i was just looking at the bolt from my sons mossberg 243 and noticed that the lugs have alot of play in them move in and out about 40 thousands from the bolt and about the same side to side.i never notice this before till i read this tread and decided to take a look at it myself . i can see how this would be prone to fail

Anyone else remember flying Beretta 92 slides? What a joke of a contract that was.

Curious, was your test performed with a spent cartridge in the chamber, or was the chamber empty?

"The only force the pin will see is when the bolt is rotated. Your lack of mechanical knowledge is showing."

Well, apparently, the force the pin sees when the bolt opens or closes is too much for it. It still functions as a shear pin. Some of the older outboat boat motors used the same principle to prevent damage to the prop.

Regardless of how much my mechanical knowledge shows, I still consider it the weakest link in a poor design. What do you think blows the bolt out of the receiver when the pin shears, if the lugs are locked in place.

What about a pierced primer? The gas would go directly to the bolt face and pin. If the pin sheared, the lugs would remain inside the action if they were engaged, or the entire bolt would come out if the pin broke when the bolt was closed.

I suppose if a person owned one of these rifles, after each shot, he could remove the bolt and check the pin to determine if it was broken or not. Of course, he would't be able to tell when he chambered the next cartridge, if the pin sheared on closing the bolt.

Your wrong again!

The pin that holds the bolt head to the bolt on the rifle will be hardened. The pin used on old boat motors was made out of aluminum. When we make shear pins at work for various applications we either use aluminum or create a shear point in a steel pin by cutting a "V" groove into the pin. The only thing that would appear to be the same is a picture.

Big difference between a shear pin and an assembly pin.

Rhode Island Tool fixed that problem and then went out of business.........

Never seen so many 92 slides in my life. 55 gallon drums full of them.

This happened to be the same forging house that had been running starrett micrometer bodies for about a mere 130 years, as well as all of Winchester and Marlin's forgings.
Sad day when that placed closed down.

Sounds like total lack of quality control.

I suspect what actually happens is that the pin shears and the lugs DON'T lock into place. So there's nothing to contain the 50,000 or so PSI and the bolt, pieces of brass, and assorted bad stuff comes back in the shooter's face.

I'm guessing there was something wrong with that rifle.

I am not familiar with the Mossberg design, nor the particulars of the nature of this failure, but I did want to add that in many bolt actions, the bolt handle serves as a safety lug to keep the bolt from coming back should the front lugs fail.

When you typing your reply, right above where you are typing there is a smiley face (fourth from the right). Click on it and menu of smiley faces come up. Pick one. miles

AJ300Mag:

Does it really matter if I am wrong or not? Does it keep you awake at night?

Whatever you call it and whatever it is made from, the pen shears, which causes the lugs not to lock.

The hole through it for the firing pin further weakens it.

Now, find something wrong with this post. I am sure there is and that you will find it. I hope you don't miss too many night's sleep over whatever I am wrong about this time.

You would think you own stock in Mossburg, the way you carry on.

Did your company make the pins? Is that whats got you all bent out of shape? Do you need a new shear pin?

Added to the above:

What others think of me is none of my business.

There is a thread about this over at the Ask the Gunwriters forum. I posted about a similar experience with a Savage and apparently offended some Savage owners. I honestly am not trashing Savage, just giving a heads up about an experience I had with a similar design. I will copy the post here - "I have a savage that somewhat failed in this manner. I was shooting some reloads that where under max. levels in one of my manuals and the bolt felt different when I closed it. The reloads where near the top of the chart listed, but I hadn't noticed any signs of high pressure. Upon checking out why the bolt felt "funny" I discovered that the pin holding the lugs and boltface had broke and the lugs wasn't engaged. Thank god I opened it up and checked before I went ahead and fired it.The pin looks rather large untill you take the bolt apart and realize it is nearly drilled in two to allow the firing pin to pass thru. I don't normally like the hotter loads, but this gun was grouping better as I increased the powder charge 1/2 grains at a time. In all fairness I had just bought the gun used at a very cheap price for a rainy day gun when I might not want to take one of my better guns out($150), and could tell it had a hard life.I spent a furtune on the gun ,new barrel(pitted badly- should have cleaned barrel before I bought it), new SS trigger(great trigger for a low budget design gun)and Devcon bed the stock, Replace plastic trigger gaurd with metal because of bedding issues. Wish I had never seen a Savage, not smart enough to quit putting money in it and cut my loses. Now on I will stick to machined bolt lugs design-Remington, Winchester,Ruger, Cooper( Iknow- bought before the USA Today article). This honestly isn't a flame, just my account of a gun and have resisted posting about because not wanting to appear as a flame. I still have gun, can't in good consious sell it to a friend as a beginner rifle because of what I think of the design.I still use it for bad weather, I never warmed up to synthetic-sucker for pretty wood, but only shoot factory ammo and inspect it after using it. Sometimes a manufacturer has to be forced to do the right thing. I think the poster asked for legitimate information in a honest question. I have never used a lawyer except for preparing a will, but all of us know that we may have to on any given day if it is the only option in a case where we have been hurt or wronged and can't closure by any other means." Again not meant as a flame, just posting so everyone can make up their own minds.

It's been a while since I toyed with a Savage. Is the bolt handle silver soldered on like a remington or is the bolt one piece?

The bolt handle fits in two index slots and held in these slots by the large screw at the end of the bolt body. The flaw as I see in the design is the pin that secures the bolt lugs to the body. It doesn't handle bolt thrust, the lugs do this , only camming thrust. If the pin is broke while camming open a tight case, it may well stay together because the receiver won't allow the broken pin to fall out untill the pin clears the loading port of the receiver. If this happens and a round is stripped from the magazine the bolt lugs may then not properly engage when the bolt handle is closed. The pin is nearly drilled in two to allow the firing pin to pass thru. This can be seen in one of the post earlier in this thread of a bolt someone has posted.

Savage bolt handle is held on by a bolt from the rear.




Savage bolt head

I'm glad bcp is smart enough to be able to post usefull illustrations and pictures as he has done. Wish I could figure out how to do this, I'm computer challenged at best.

So in effect the bolt handle wouldn't act as a third lug preventing the bolt from escaping the action?

My contention is that the point of shear stress on the pin would be at the joint between the I.D. of the bolt body and the O.D. of the bolt head, not in the center of the assembly pin where the hole is drilled through.

The same concept is used on the M-16/AR-15's. You have a pin holding the bolt to the carrier. That pin alone is responsible for taking the bolt for a ride along with the carrier. Quick and dirty check shows aprox 20kpsi+ acting on the carrier, I didn't do the math to figure out the force in pounds. Has anyone heard of the pin on an AR-15 failing?

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/2641799/page/0/fpart/1

This is from another thread. Could it be that the guy thought the bolt was closed and locked but the handle had simply come loose and went down to the locked position having the shooter think his rifle was "locked and loaded"?

g

That is a very ugly situation illustrated by those pictures, that's the first time I've seen those. That appears a very plausible scenario.

Someone [bleep] up!!!!

That's not splined, it's straight knurled. You would turn the shaft undersized and then knurl the part for a press fit. The lugs holding your tires on your car use the same process. If anyone has ever broken a lug and had to change one they know how much force it takes to pop the old one out.

The early Savage 110 bolt pins were a known problem and redesigned to the "small firing pin" type with a smaller hole for more strength. Can't understand why Mossberg would begin production without due caution.

Money....................................................

The NRA should definitely present Obamination one of those in honor!

I really have no clue what any of you are talking about but it's still fun reading.


Guess when grandpa said, "just shove a shell in and pull the trigger, that's all ya need to know", I should have figured there was more to it than that.

Sounds like Grandpa was a Winchester man.

I must have missed the funny part as well, whether injured or not.

Not an appropriate nor acceptable response to such a mishap, no matter what the belated reasoning and/or justification.

Agree 100%. I fail to see any humor in it.

I took time to reflect on this today after looking at the pictured Savage parts.

To me it seems that if the locking lugs are pinned on the front of the bolt and the cocking cam is on the rear of the bolt ANY multiple piece design COULD fail.

Assume that the pin breaks, the bolt handle turned down allows the firing pin to fall. The locking lugs are unlocked, allowing the bolt to blow back!

Multiple section bolt designs that I am aware of:

Mossberg

Remington

Winchester post-64

The Ruger 77/22 series also has a multi piece bolt, but since the locking lugs are in the rear, the lugs and cocking cam are in the same time zone.
I don't think that this type of accident could happen in the 77/22 type design.

Not trolling.............
Just wondering out loud.

I have shot many brands of multi piece bolt action rifles and never
considered it a safety issue.

A good M98 is really hard to beat!

Jumpin' Jayzus!

Let's just start another thread entitled "Pile on Trey."

Everyone who feels self-righteous enough that they think the Nth time someone mentions the incident isn't funny is the time that will make the difference with Trey can post.

[bleep], he's already explained and apologized - enough already.