screwed once again by the congress

Yes and no one knows how bad just yet. It's all going to come crashing down around our ears. Thanks to those who installed the pinhead and his minions.

I came from a socialist country, you ain't seen nothing yet.

Tragic news. We can hope that when the Dems get swept out next year that the Republicans (who will likely run on reversing what the Dems did) will repeal it.

One has to wonder when enough will be enough.

Which socialist country?

"Hope" is what [bleep] us....

just the beginning I am afraid, if the repubs don't cross the bill gets defeated. The 2 that did not vote must be in self preservation mode.

Those two are screwed. The Dems must have deposited some money in a Swiss account for them, because they'll never work in politics again.

term limits are the only answer to this madness

I have to agree with the Term Limits, but it will NEVER happen!

Anybody know where one can see the actual vote results by Rep?

Any wild guesses as to the traitorous scumbags who crossed over? Hmmm ... north eastern RINO's perhaps?

My Democratic Rep voted AGAINST!

Small victory, but it feels good.

BMT

How far must all of this go before American's wake up????? This is so sickening!

Double Digit inflation, double digit unemployment, and double digit interest rates.

Jimmy Carter here we come.

BMT

Is there a country out there that I can move to that will provide hunting/self-defense/gun possession and will respect individual rights and liberties with a little common sense thrown in for good measure?

I'm looking for an alternative because my country has gone to hell.

If Texas would declare secession, I'd be there in a heart beat.

How? Obama will veto it (the repeal). There is no way in hell that we can get both the Senate and House to veto/filibuster proof majorities.

Every Democrat that voted for these people should be hung when/if we ever regain control of this country. This Bill is an anchor around the neck of a terminally ill patient.

They will all sell their votes if enough perks are offered. What the claim to believe in means nothing

The 8 traitors.

Bono Mack
Castle
Kirk
Lance
Reichert
LoBiondo
McHugh
Smith(NJ)

"Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die."

"Everybody wants clean air and a good environment, but no one wants to pay for it."

Sounds similar, don�t they?

With such a contentious vote there is still hope in the Senate. The manager's amendment sucks so badly, the one Dems sneaked in at 3 AM to avoid debate, I can't see it getting passed as is, at least.

I was just thinkin' it might be time for the State of Jefferson to give it another go.

Tom

This has nothing to do with clean air, you simpleton idiot.

I don't think anyone objects to clean air and good environment but don't pass this crap off as a jobs bill. Jobs for China is right, if this is about clean air and good environment then why are we building more nuclear energy plants.

The damn sad thing is I fought for this damn country and now we get repaid by taking away all things American. Sad day

You are a hopeless fool.

Really, have you read the bill - the whole bill of 1200+ pages? I have, and while I differ with portions, it is a decent start to perserve clean air.

Some who blindly oppose it offer no valid alternative, just US Chamber of Commerce and Industry Lobbist interpretations.

The Democrat Socialist Party is flushing this country down the toilet and the sheeple are cheering them own. They are destroying every thing this country stand for and all the retards care about is Michael Jackson is dead.

If it was about pollution it would be a bill aimed at putting caps on industry...when they added the "trade" portion it became a political hot potato open to every other politcal BS we have seen.

Even the EPA says it won't help because the companies who will be hardest hit will move to other parts of the world and not be subject to it....but at least we'll bleed them dry before that.

Or an end to party affiliation. When you have 2 parties setting precedence, politicians are as useful as monkeys.

Make our representatives think for themselves instead of blindly following their parties lead.

You're either a liar or an idiot. I'm thinking both. You're telling me you read the 300 pages Amendment just added today, that took teams of Congressional assistants to read before the vote?

And you call yourself an economist and support this?
Wow

Valid alternative: Let technological innovation and the market decide viable energy solutions ... not libtards.

That is so scary you think that way. All this amounts to is another tax on the people and industry. jorge

Economics is just not trying to get the cheapest production/products possible. It is about determining positive directions and putting the economy on a sustainable path. Every economic action or decision has adverse effects, but they may be good for the future. For example, the cheapest and most economical way to dispose of chemical waste is to just dump it in waterways, landfills or bury it. But, it will come back to bite you.

Remember Love Canal, Libby (Montana), and Ohio's Cuyahoga River. If you like to fish, hunt and enjoy the outdoors, some economic decisions may cost money to initiate.

But then, what do I know, I'm just a liar and simpleton.

No, I have not read the amendments today, and I am not sure what they provide. I took off to play golf� shot an 85, if anyone cares to know.

I don't think you're a liar or a simpleton. Just a liberal with wrongheaded ideas or you truly believe in socialism. jorge

DJS, I'll ask you the same thing I asked a group of students when discussing the increased quantity of goods that Americans consume compared to other countries. "What do YOU, of all the things you have and enjoy, want to do without?"

DJS, if you want to live greener, what do you live without or have given up? Do you think it is fair that someone who doesn't know you or how you live should dictate that you should pay as a "privilage tax to live in the conditions that you desire?

Carlos is from Mexico, one of the finest men I have met recently, bar none!

Jason Z Alberts

I was thinking [bleep] idiot but hopeless fool works.

I am willing to pay for the items I receive in the form of taxes. This includes education (although my kids are grown), a vibrant military (although I would like to see fewer cost over-runs of programs), reduced homelessness (the nation's capital has a large number), fiscal responsibility (once the current economic morass is over) and, a vibrant industrial base (we need industry to support job growth and be self sufficient).

Last year tax bill was high, but I realize that the services we need (both on the Federal and local levels) cost money. This does not mean that I want to just run up taxes for waste.

What am I willing to give up? Let�s start with farm subsidies to industrial farmers (see: �Farm Program Pays $1.3 Billion to People Who Don't Farm� - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/01/AR2006070100962.html ). Then there are subsidy programs the CATO Institute has identified (see: http://www.cato.org/pubs/tbb/tbb_0611-41.pdf ).

I stand by calling djs a liar. He asserted that his alleged reading of the entire Bill gave him greater knowledge of this Bill than me, then when pressed, admitted he didn't actually read 20% of it.

A man can oppose 1200 pages by reading 2 pages that are wholly unacceptable. Only a fool would preach that something is acceptable, having not read 1/5 of it.

Do we know names and states of the eight Repub's who supported this, along with the two who didn't vote?

I said that I read 1200+ pages of the bill (over the past 3 weeks at work). I have admittedly not read the amendments, but then many on this Forum have not even read (and commented on) the basic bill.

Has anyone here ever considered that others with different experiences and educational backgrounds might have different opinions on a subject? Are you the sole determinates of intelligence, morality and what is good for the long-term viability of the nation? If someone dies not agree with you, are they stupid, or just a liar?

Bono Mack (CA) 202-225-5330
Castle (DE) 202-225-4165
Kirk (IL) 202-225-4835
Lance (NJ) 202-225-5361
Lobiondo (NJ) 202-225-6572
McHugh (NY) 202-225-4611
Reichart (WA) 202-225-7761
Chris Smith (NJ) 202-225-3765

if yah havent read the amendments than yah havent read the bill....the amendments mean as much as the rest of it........

I want to see every republican that crossed or didn't vote on a list so that we can protest them until they get fired. [bleep] jackass sellouts.

Two posts up I posted those that crossed.

Jason Z Alberts

Makes me wonder why I bother voting Republican at all. They absolutely will not stick together on anything. Worthless party with no leader and no direction.

Yet I'll still vote for the worthless [bleep] next election.

That's bud, I think our posts "crossed in the mail".

This still needs to get through the Senate, correct?

Does anyone know how things stand in the Senate and when a potential vote would be?

Guys I haven't read all posts but it has to go through the Senate. I hear it is doomed there.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I can't believe Dave Reichart voted for this. I thought he was more conservative then that? I don't know if he's trying to keep the King Co. greenies happy or what?

I put liar out there because I knew you did not read the 300 pages amendment today and thus were in no position to claim it was a good Bill. You inferred that you read the entire Bill.

Yes, intelligent men can differ. This is not a Bill however that has much gray area. The Bill is based upon junk science and has loopholes for Democrat supported industries and subsidies for Liberal groups. This is not a bi-partisan Bill. This is yet another example of a one sided pork Bill being passed wholly upon Party lines. 8 Republicans is hardly "bi-partisan".

I would support a Bill that actually stopped pollution in the nations rivers and lakes, this is not that type of Bill. This is the result of very corrupt individuals playing "gotcha".

How someone can look at provisions preventing the sale of privately owned property until they meet arbitrary federal energy efficiency standards and find that either Constitutional or a must for cleaner air is beyond me. Especially since in the same Bill they manage to force utilities to tax themselves and subsidize low income (minorities) energy consumption.

How exactly will enticing low income households to use MORE energy through subsidization clean the air and rivers? It won't. This is nothing more than wealth redistribution part IV.

Better to vote for a party that voted 95% against this crap than a party that voted 90% for it.

6-10% fallout on any Bill can be expected, you know they were bribed with pork. The problem is the Communist party has a majority or 8 votes wouldn't matter.

DJS, sorry must have not made myself clear. What would YOU, individually give up for this "greenness." You mentioned that "everyone wants to got to heaven but no one wants to die" and the "everyone wants to have clean air but no one wants to pay for it."

What do YOU sacrifice on the alter of greeness? Are you willing to pay bigger bucks for electricity to deter usage, etc? Most people are like the person talking about the cute little baby seals being clubbed while chomping down on a burger or steak.

I just can't understand why people would support taxation to deter the way of life that THEY live. Some people are really going to findout they have been royally screwed whenever they awake form the enchantment of the Choosen One.

No they won't reverse this cuz it isn't as bad as the Democrats wanted.

Republicans as good ole fashioned paleo-Cons are dead. Its all relative now... as in, "We're relatively conservative compared to the socialism of the Democrats!"

Nationalized medicine, Gov't Motors, bank bail-outs, the Republicans approve of it all... just with more relatively conservative window treatments.

Its going to take more than 1 year for the Republicans to gain back control, and it'll take WAY more than the Republicans have in 'em to ever back us out of the mess that Pres. Bush started late last year with the bank bailouts... or earlier (with other "relatively conservative" moves), depending upon when you want to draw the lines.

Term limits will happen right after tort reform

Are you one of the environmentally ill ?

Air quality is greatly improved over the last 50 years.

The only valid alternative is to build nuclear power plants and the idiot environmentalists don't want that. They want us all crammed together in cardboard box apartments without cars. Or even better dead.

The goal of this bill is not to boost the environment. If it was for that they would make it revenue neutral. It's purpose is to increase taxes so the Dims will have more money to waste on people who are too lazy to get an education and work.

This Country is so far in the toilet one wonders if we can ever recover. The Senate will be the last stand. There are so many mis-guided people that have no clue, including this DJS guy. The Dems and their leader do not care about global warming, CO2 or any other voodoo science. They are motivated by increasing taxes and controlling our freedoms. Its not over - yet.
However Obama Care is coming next. If O gets both, this Country will be relegated to second class status. Obama is lying more and more each day to continue his grand plan.
Never has this Country slipped so far and so fast.

So many of us Americans voted for so much of this crap and the people involved, I didn't, but it matters not,,, maybe we just deserve to suffer for the stupidity of so many...Maybe sometime, we as a Nation will grasp and understand Politics, the deceptions and then re create this Country and its Politics. I hope, but I doubt it til we are all living in Gooberment housing and eating meals on Food Stamps. Course, that is what the Gomerment wants, total dependance on them.. If you don't see that, well, vote for Obama and the Liberal Politicians in 2010 and 2012. You'll get your wish.
Cap & Trade,, just wait til you finally open your eyes and see what it cost you. Goomerment IS ORGANIZED we fellow Taxpayers are NOT. We bitch about things, but to NO avail because other than the 2 parties, we have no real organization. The folks in CONTROL know this. How do you think they pull off all the crap... OH YA.. we can vote them out. Ya think so? They just get replaced with another mouthpiece. I think as a Country, we are doomed, not now, not in 10 years, but eventually America as we know it will dissapear as sure as the Dinosaurs did

The teeth is/has been in the I.R.S., and a Federal Income Tax took 125 years after the founding to exist, supposedly legally.....not.

the absurdity of a bill to "change the world's climate" should be apparent on its face to anyone with a brain


this will go down as one of the most disastrous mistakes of the whole disastrous Obama experiment

Steve, I don't think you are giving Obama credit. He has another three and a half years to practice and gain experience as a screwup. Perhaps we haven't seen nothing yet.

that's a cheery thought

This C&T bill is ALL about paying for the US social "safety net", ie-social security, medi care, and creating a "new" economy because the social experiment of the US becoming a service based (read financial service of the global monies) economy (like the limeys) failed.

Would never have needed any of this chit if we had stayed a manufacturing based economy.

Sadly true. I'm sure we'll continue to be astonished and outraged by the depths this man will take our country before his 2 terms in office are over.

And yes, I'm convinced he'll win in '12. I'm that cynical of the voting class and the Republican Party.

All of this is moot anyway because global warming is a scam. It's a scare tactic dreamed up to convince people who otherwise wouldn't care, to surrender to the environmentalist agenda and to make people like Al Gore rich by profiteering from it. It's also JUST ANOTHER EXCUSE FOR ANOTHER TAX. At the end of the day, that's all this is- just another tax to take your money and power. The rest is all smoke and mirrors to get people like us debating about it and slitting each others throats, all the while they put their hands in our pockets and take our money.

And if it wasn't a scam, they wouldn't have changed the name from global warming to "climate change", implying that there has EVER been a time throughout the history of the earth when the climate wasn't changing or trending in some direction or another. Besides, how arrogant can politicians be to say that THIS climate is the correct climate. What if the correct climate is actually hotter or cooler than this?

There was a college professor and renowned geologist who did a study on the long range patterns of geothermal and solar activities who came up with a 40 year cycle. We are currently at the end of a warming cycle AS WE SPEAK according to him that started around 1970ish. And what has ACTUAL global temperature done for the last couple years? IT'S GONE DOWN. Hmmm, how can that be? People are still breathing carbon dioxide. Cows are still farting. At the end of the last cooling period, back around 1970, the fanatics were calling for the end of the world BECAUSE OF GLOBAL COOLING. This is not a joke, look it up.

At the extremes of major cycles of any kind, you get extremes of human behavior. Two years ago, people in my town were paying a quarter million dollars for a 900 square foot house of a postage stamp. That was friggin stupid but the real estate market was at an extreme of its cycle. And hence the lunacy of human behavior. This is no different.

Nasa infrared photography analysis has shown that global warming had been happening on Mars and other planets besides earth over the last 20 years. Hmmm, that's interesting. I didn't know that the Marsians were driving SUVs and using 2 stroke lawn mowers, hmmm, how could that be? IT'S BECAUSE THE [bleep] SUN WAS HOTTER for awhile. Sheesh, it not because there are too many cows with flatulence ON EARTH.

Here's the conspiracy theory: the people who are at the core of this lunacy know for a fact it's bullschitt AND they know that temperature trends are about to change whether we want them to or not because of NATURAL CYCLES. So, this is their opportunity to tax the hell out of you, profit immensely and shift more power to the government. Then when temperatures do change, they can create a false link between what they did and the nature order of things. And people will stand in awe and say, "thank you Barack, you saved all our lives, we're so grateful to give you all our hard earned money."

+1000 ! This is the truth. Why is it so hard for the left to see? I refuse to believe they want to be duped.They are sticking with it, because this "cause" is getting them what they want. Control. Every time a lib gets some power, they begin to mandate things. Rather than let us make up our own minds, they MAKE us do it their way.

As scary and unlikely as it is, the only hope we have that this Cap and Trade lunacy will be stopped is that the Senate will not pass the bill. I am not holding out much hope of that happening.

We have term limits for Gov. here in NC, it doesn't stop the corruption one bit. It also ain't stopping this spending spree in the State government.
Rope, tree, politician, some assembly required.

+++++++++++++++

I can't imagine this getting past the Senate. I think the Bill is dead in the water.

I've been in the pollution control business for 32-years. Don't quit your day job.



You're not even a good economist. The most economical way to dispose of chemical waste is to sell it and make money.

Where can I find out how my congressmen voted? I can't find anything on their websites.

BP...

just don't tell me it's your "lock pick" of the week Bob, puhhlease


OutlawPatriot, that was as my friend Bob says "a nice touch on the keyboards"

well done


we're doomed I believe, not doomed to go out in a flash, but to wither away, much like Merry Old England did after losing it's place in world prominence.


and not because of our politicians either, though they are certainly a symptom

it's us

shreck's description of what is needed we don't collectively have the will to do so (and yes I'm part of that collective)

for most of us we are at the peak of our financial strength as individuals as we notice that our physical skills are beginning to erode

but there are just too many that buy into the plan as spouted by the idiots in DC


I truly don't believe our kids have much of a chance at a future ripe with opportunity that we enjoyed at that age short of a dividing of the country of those that embrace socialism and those that support capitalism.

and I just don't see the odds of that as being very high.

these next couple of years are going to be interesting.

the elections next year should be telling.

Who "us" is has been intentionally manipulated by an immigration policy designed to destroy the nation.

You sure you're not Juan Williams incognito?

Try milk instead of Kool-Aid.. Works wonders..

Not my lock,Randy, but I am rather confident.



"...for most of us we are at the peak of our financial strength as individuals as we notice that our physical skills are beginning to erode..."
+++++++++++++++++++++++++

What you may have had to explain to a lady friend last night is not my business! Some of us have to say.."Please...not again!"

Change one word: 'should', to 'better'..

This bill needs to be hung around the necks of every moron who voted for it.. Next election - vote out every one of those who were for this bill, no party excepted..

I'll be interested to hear what my peers think of this, on Monday. Or perhaps a better word is 'worried.'

Outlaw - good post.

Before I offer my opinion, a few qualifiers of my opinion: AS - Business Admin, BS - Geology, MS - Geology- hydrology emphasis, State Regulatory Agency - 7 yrs, Private consulting - 3 years, Federal Regulatory Agency - 10 years. I state all that to make a simple point - I didn't fall off the environmental turnip truck yesterday.

The earth has and does go through warming/cooling cycles - search on the "Little Ice Age" for a recent mini-excursion. Clasically trained geoscience folks learn about the carbon cycle in college - and its associated feedback mechanisms - one of which is production of more water vapor, and increased precipitation. Ice cores do show the earth may be heating up a few degrees - so what. This isn't the first time and won't be the last time.

For a real chuckle look up the climate model used for the Kyoto protocol. From memory - I think it showed a 1.8 degree C (4 F) increase in temperature over the next 50 years. The model has a gazzillion parameters - none of which has that kind of mathematical precision. The model is akin to doing brain surgery with a chain saw.

Second - until the rest of the world (r.e. China mainly), gets on board with cap and trade, US efforts won't amount to shiite.

As to the clean water/air/ecosystem BS spewed earlier. Have a gander at the nations stream and air quality in the 2000's compared to the 1970's when the Federal Regulatory Agencies were created. Drive around the Appalachian coalfields and you'll see evidence of past abuse - that many mistakenly believe is occurring today - not. It is a visual legacy of days gone by.

There is lots more to say about this goofiness. Mostly I believe the folks spewing the BS believe in what they say. The difference is they do not know what the hell they're talking about. A classic case of a little knowledge - and extrapolating way beyond the data. They are at best mis-guided, at worst ruining the US.

The probem is two-fold: 1. Industry, in some cases, doesn't help itself by self-regulating. They are in many cases driven solely by profit, 2. The people spewing the earth is falling BS have become entrenched in that position - and won't listen to what science says, in spite of the few "science supporters" backing man-made global warming.

Club for Growth is calling it a massive money transfer program from rural America to the cities.

bwinters nailed it.


this is a religious exercise by the true believer Warmist zealots, and a power and money grab by the rest of the democrat/socialist machine


and Mr. Climate doesn't give a damn about any of it, and will do what he will do, just as he always has and will. one little bit of solar activity dwarfs all that Pelosi and her dwarves can do.

Good post. In fact, the world has not yet fully recovered from the Little Ice Age. Prior to the Little Ice Age (between 1150 AD and 1850 AD), England was known for its wine vineyards and sheep were grazing in Greenland, i.e., southern Greenland was actually green. We have a long way to go, in terms of increases in global temps, just to return to what was considered the norm prior to the Little Ice Age.

Obama will bankrupt the coal industry





B.Hussain Obama, speaking to the San Francisco Chronicle in January 2008.
Audio here

Does it now go to the Senate for vote?

Not only do the solar cycles, solar flares etc dwarf us all being forced into some death trap hybrid, but volcanic activity super dwarfs any emissions we could possibly create in a man made way. Some vulcanologist claim that the ONE Mt St Helen's eruption was equivalent to DECADES of 100s of millions of SUVs on the road. One NATURAL event.

At the core of all this, I still believe that the wizards behind the curtain have one intention with all this- to take your money and secure more power over our lives, period. The rest of the people are basically cult members and true believers that the wizards are leveraging without their knowledge to scare everyone.

This cap and trade crap is also profound for us from a political perspective. If this bill gets killed, all the calls, all the debate and all the common sense will have prevailed. And it could be seen as THE turning point where America finally drew the line in the sand and said "NO MORE" to Hussein's agenda.

Many conservatives that I know feel quite overwhelmed, powerless, baffled and depressed right now. But momentum is a funny thing. If killing this massive power grab could mark a turning point where the people finally took back some control, that momentum could provide powerful encouragement that feeds on itself and builds more momentum into the 2010 elections.

All we can hope for in 2010 is that enough of Obama's disciples gets fired and we get back to gridlock. Gridlock and getting nothing done is better than the "progress" that they want.

yes, and it can't pass there in its present form...Dingy Harry Reid has already admitted that

I manage the coal regulatory program in Tennessee. There is a lethal combination of environmental zealots coalescing at the moment. Not only is the cap and trade BS occurring but EPA has found a supporter for 20 years of pent up environmental aggression. If EPA passes their intended TDS standards, the coal industry will not be able to meet the new standard being discussed.

So we have armgeddon for the electric generation community - cap and trade impacting their emmissions, and environmental regulations curtailing coal removal.

Who do you think will pay for that? Does any of the Obama supporters really think these coal companies and electric generators are going to eat the costs associated with meeting both of these new mandates? I'd like to hear from an Obama voter.....................

I think 2 "good" things are happening. First - Obama is moving as fast as he can to get all his agenda items implemented. Note the rush to votes on all major bills - hint # 1. The good thing to become of this is that the impact of his policies will begin to be felt by the next election - at least I pray they are. We can't go 8 years of this BS.

Second - I know of several high powered scientific studies throwing serious doubt at the whole man-made global warming BS. I know 1 was recently released and was buried by EPA in recent weeks. I'm trying to get a look at it but have heard it is serious science and cast serious aspersions to the whole human caused global warming myth.

I think the combination of significantly higher energy rates combined with the rush to policy changes, in addition to better science will show the folly of current policy direction and hopefully spell defeat in 3.5 years. America is being hoodwinked at the moment - if it weren't so, the people voting on these signficant changes would have time to review, have a rational debate, then make an informed decision. At the moment, we're getting party line votes and people making decisions based on future personal benefit. Both of which are gutless and not in the best interest of the country.

Hopefully, the Republicans will find a collective conservative voice and put forward a candidate worthy of the moniker.

If I have to hear that biotch Pelosi say one more time that this is a "jobs" bill, I'm gonna hurl. Beck on Cap and Trade:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT_X14rI6J8

Remember, if we don't pass this bill NOW, this will be over your house for eternity:

Naaawwww,

You guys got it all wrong. Just ask djs and friends ... he read the bill and it actually does some pretty good things .

Hey I wonder if SACharlie or Junior1942 or the rest of the idiots will step in and 'splain" why this bill is a good deal for all of us. jorge