I just saw on the news that they recovered Carlie's body. Does Florida still have Old Sparky? If so Joesph Smith needs to have a date with him!!

I appoligize to any/all that are offended my the title to this thread .... just couldn't find a proper way to tone it down.

George, I was thinking a nice slow roasting over a fire pit would work. I would volunteer to handle the basting brush. tom

Make sure your basting his balls with a nice solution of concentrated Nitric and Sulfuric Acid!

Avagadro:

I seem to remember a Commandment that goes like this: "Thou Shalt Not Kill."

It applies to us as judges and juries as much as it applies to the creep who did this terrible thing.

I also recall a passage that reads: "Vengeance is Mine, Sayeth the Lord!" To me this means that the Lord shall have revenge against these creeps, but not us.

I say, lock the bastard up for the rest of his life. Don't let him do it again. But killing him is only revenge. It won't bring the kid back. She is with her maker now. She is not in pain.

Pray for the families left on earth, and look elsewhere for justice.

Terribly unsatisfying answer, but I know in my heart it is the right answer.

BMT

BMT,
I know in my heart that you are right and as a christen I should think the same way, but in cases like this I can not. People like him need to roast here and in the here after. tom

BMT...doesn't that read "You shall not murder" or does the KJV read different?



I think the intent is not to murder. Killing for justice, or in war, is "okay".



Also, I don't think that a death sentence is about revenge.

It is about applying the proper amount of justice to the injustice done. It is not an emontional "revenge" response, but rather the consequence of the most grave actions.



I personally have absolutely no problem with the death penalty and think it is right and just.

BMT:

"Thou shall not kill" is correctly translated as "Thou shall not murder". Killing this lowlife SOB or any other child molesting/murdering scum would not be murder and should be done tomorrow if I had my way, after he was convicted, of course.

Maybe you would have the same feelings if it was your child, I don't know. But if it was mine, they couldn't put him far enough away. I'm a firm believer in vengeance. I'm not certain of the afterlife variety, I'll settle for here and now.

What does letting him breathe for 40 more years accomplish. He's alive, she's dead. Make it equal IMO.

HEAR, HEAR CAT! I would gladly "Murder" the low life SOB. That child was only 11 years old!

And FYI Avagardo, Yes, we still have "Old Sparky". And I have a Tee Shirt with a picture of it and the caption "Regular or Extra Crispy"

I agree with you on the kill vs murder issue, IIFID, but...like stated earlier, the death penalty shouldn't be about emotional revenge, but about justice.

The commandment translates from Hebrew as "Thou shall do no murder"--and capital punishment was clearly not considered murder, since the Bible prescribes the death penalty for many sins.
And, yes, Florida does have the death penalty.

this fellow - if convicted - will be convicted of violating man's law. he will have to suffer man's consequence for his violation of man's law, which in florida can mean the death penalty. he violated God's law, too. he will suffer the consequence for that, too, but after man's consequence.

this guy, by the way, would not have been able to kill that little girl if he had been in the pen where he belonged instead on probation for the latest in a series of convictions.

he had been acquitted - get this - of assaulting and kidnapping a woman off the street. gee, were the clues out there, or what?

Matthias,

That is my take as well. I believe the bible, but as a young man many of the apparent contradictory statements were an aid in helping lose my faith for some time.

As as adult, finding that the true meaning of Thou shall not kill had been replaced for murder helped clear up one of those contradictions.

IMO victims and victims families desires are not given enough weight in the determination of sentences. Uncertainy in my mind, is one of our greatest fears, how many of us have had a terrible weight on our mind at one time or another and eventually the outcome whether in our favor or not was not nearly as bad as the agonizing anguish of how is this going to work out.

I cannot imagine the terror of the mind that most abducted must go through, as the situation degrades and you realize you no longer have control over your personal safety, hope is the last thing we give up before the end.

In my mind justice would be better served in a case like this, if the perp, were to be placed in a room strapped to a table, with a wide array of tools placed nearby. He would then be instructed, that the victims family will be in shortly to either pronounce your sentence or administer justice.

He might get lucky and have a father like BMT come in and pray for him and explain to him you will be imprisoned for the rest of your life....or he might get a guy like me and die an agonizing very slow death. It's barbaric I know, but I believe you fight terroism with terroism. and cruelty with cruelty.
If it was my daughter, I believe under the current way we administer justice, I might prefer that he receive life in prison. Whereupon I would do every thing I could in my power to contact other prisoners families and provide them financial support for their folks inside to make his remaining life a living hell. Every time he goes to the infirmary, your family gets $5000.

I know those won't seem like Christian values to some of you and perhaps they are not, I am not nearly evolved as a man or a Christian as I would like to be, but in my mind the wonder and terror that the perp would go through wondering what is going to happen to him would be more appropro to what they had put their victim through.

If that makes me bound to Hades, so be it, and I don't say that lightly, but if anyone hurts my little girl, you will be looking forward when you see our Lord, cause he's not gonna be nearly as mad as I am. My .75 cents worth. 1ak

Let's just try to understaaaaand just why he did what he did...NOT.

As I understand it, Killing is never OK.

That being said, if I were to cause the death of another person in the course of Defending myself, I would be forgiven.

A Just war operates under a similar concept. The Overthrow of the Nazis required a substantial amount of killing, but it HAD TO BE DONE. The Nazis were systematically killing an entire religous group. It is not OK to kill even in that circumstance, but it is forgivable.

Finally, remember that the Lord stated: "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone" This statement was made to a group of men who were about to enfore the death penalty by stoning.

Either way, I know of no Christian denomination that approves of the death penalty. Correct me if I am wrong.

BMT

Most churches I've attended had no problem with it.
Let's just gracefully disagree here, shall we?

It's great idea, but it wouldn't happen for at least 15 or more years after conviction. If convicted he'll have at least one or two shots at the Fla. Court of Appeals and then the Fla. Supreme Court, this could take any where from 5-10 years. Then he can go to the Federal System, Federal District Court, then theirs another Federal Court. That could take up another 10 years or so. There's a case here in TN. that occured in 1970 with the killing of a police officer in Memphis. The convicted killer is still going through the appeal process. Isn't the judicial system great <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Geez..I hear ya. What to do, eh?

I can understand BMT, to a limited degree. But in this instance I'm more of an Exodus person (gotta love Moses). An eye for an eye; a tooth for a tooth. The life of this scummy SOB for the life of a child who will never know her potential here on Earth? Not a fair trade ... but I'll take it (wonder if I can throw the switch?)!

Go get um CAT!!!! I vote for Charlie as the new jugde. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Puting him behind bars at a cost of $65,000 a year to the tax payers accomplishes nothing. Light him up! Flinch

Yes, it still applies to everyone equally -- but you err in taking kill to mean the same now as it did then.

� Back during the King James era, the generic English term for taking any kind of life (animal or human) was slay -- today, the word kill carries that broader meaning. The commandment does not rule out slaying -- in fact, biblical requirements for slaying are abundant.

� Back then, the word for unlawfully taking a human life was kill -- today, the word murder carries that meaning. Slaying by due legal process is not murder.

This is neither erudite nor esoteric "interpretation" -- it is simple linguistic fact, well known to all well versed students of the Bible. (And in case you don't already know, FWIW, it's coming to you now from an old creep with an earned doctoral degree in biblical interpretation and decades of experience teaching nondenominational biblical theology.)

According to a friend of mine, Dr. Andrew Fox, PhD., Linguistics, UCLA, the Hebrew word for "kill," is "katal." It is NOT used in the Sixth Commandment. The Hebrew word in the Commandment is "ratsach," and means "unjustifiable homicide," or "murder."

I ain't hardly no expert in Hebrew... but my friend is.

FWIW. L.W.

BMT - I don't mean to take it out on you, but are you aware of the State of Oregon's policy as far as "killing" the elderly? To the legislators, and assumably the populace, there is a sliding scale of value on life depending on whose it is.

Regards, sse

Gen 9:6 Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man.


Rom 13:3-4 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil.

All:

These are interesting points about "Slay" versus "Kill" versus "Murder."

But, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" is a clear statement that only the sinless may execute the perp. The passage, in its entirety and in context is a very clear refutation of the death penalty.

I am not without sin. The only persons I know who were ever without sin ar Jesus and his mother, Mary. I will let them cast the first stone.

I have no desire to "understand" the perp. I have no desire to coddle the SOB. I DO seek to understand the gospel. I DO seek absolute truth.
I know that this is an unfulfilling and unpopular result. But, we are charged to look for fulfillment elsewhere.

I would rather err on the side of mercy for the killer (as in sparing his life) and spend the money on keeping him in jail. Hard Time in full security prison, complete with working on the chain gang and earning his keep, is fine with me.

Just my 2 cents.

BMT

SSE: No Offense taken.

Yeah, the mens group at my church is working on that. Sometimes we ain't too popular here in the Bleeding Heart of the Northwest. No abortion, No death penalty, and No Assisted Suicide. I guess we are just a bunch of liberals.

Oh, except the "Liberals" want abortion. And we stand firm on No Homosexual marriage, we think the Boy Scouts are great, we work hard to make marriage a lifetime investment, not an easy in-easy out proposition. The "Keep Christ in Christmas" billboards that we hung all around town did not endear us to the Liberals, either.

Sometimes people ask me whether I am a Conservative or Liberal. I tell them that I am a Christian, doing my best with what I've got.

BMT

Most excellent answer, buddy.
Like I said, I think we can respectfully disagree and still be campfire buddies.

I think he should be nailed on to a barn floor, in 'SEVERAL" places, and the barn set on fire. Guess it would be a waste of a good barn <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Mathias:

Works for me.

BMT

Yup.

they stoned people in the bible for less didn't they.

3fingers46"

Yep. The stoning in the passage I referred to was for Adultery, if I am correct.

But, the fact that the offense was small not addressed by Jesus. He did not say, let those who have never committed adultery Stone this women for adultery. He did not say, Save your stones for mureders. He said, "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."

Jesus, and Mary, to the best of my knowledge, are the only two who are without sin. All the rest of us, should not, therefore, participate in the death penalty (or "cast the first stone").

Just my 2 cents . . . ..

BMT

I remember when I lived in Fla and was still going to school. I think it was when they fried Ted Bundy. I lived in Daytona Beach and every bar and restaurant gave out T shirts that said " BBQ Southern Style" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Okay, so let them slay, katal, ratsach, kill, murder, hewn down, stone, smite, conquer, pillage, plunder and fry his ass <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Flinch

BMT -

The Catholic church teaches that Mary was without sin. If this were true, then John 1:8-10 is a lie:

8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

as would also be Romans 3:23 -

23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Mary was an incredible women, but she was a sinner as we all are.

As I posted above, God established capital punishment and ordained governing authorities to carry out said punishment: Gen 9:6 Regarding the example of Jesus and the adulterous woman, it is important to put this example in its proper context. The Pharasees and Saducees (sp??) deliberately brought this situation before Jesus in an attempt to discredit him (Mosaic law says adultery is punishable via stoning). If Jesus said don't do it, he'd break Mosaic law. Jesus came to fulfill the law...not abolish it. Jesus upheld the law; he did not say she is NOT to be stoned, he said whoever is without sin, let him cast the first stone.

Excellent points there. Nice job.

God says one thing ... Jesus says another ... I thought they were one in the same ... did he get soft? These are some of the things that bother me ... and yes .. they do keep me awake at nite thinking about them!!!

They said the same thing, really.

Avagadro - The Holy Trinity: God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one and the same. From your perspective, how/what did God say that was different from what Jesus taught?

Did not Jesus pray in the garden? If He and God were one in the same, then why would he pray to himself?

And watch himself (the Holly Spirit) decend down upon him like a dove? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Flinch

Protecting innocent life from predators has to be done too. He needs to be executed.

Jesus is God incarnate. According to scripture, Jesus chose to be under the authority of God the Father. One is not greater than the other. Jesus' prayer in the Garden reflected his humanity...he did not want to suffer what was about to happen to him. However, he prayed to God that His (God the father) will be done and not his (Jesus') own. Everything that Jesus did, in terms of service to God and people, we are to do. Jesus was the perfect and blameless example of how we are to live.

If the fella did indeed kill the girl then I say he should be beat to death with a bible. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



How many innocent lives would you folks think is a fair trade to spare the life of a convicted killer. Fella kills someone, has tried (apparently before), will try again...spare his life so he can kill more??? Kill him!

Alan,

The law of Moses (by direction of God?) states an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, plus an earlier post from Genisus. Jesus preachs much more compassion towards his fellow man: such as ye without sin cast the first stone (in relation to the adultress brought before him, in biblical times was a crime punishable by death (although the punishment didn't fit the crime could be the argument here). Do these not contridict each other? I understand to a degree where Christ would say to spare the woman, because the punishment doesn't fit the crime and is not truely an eye for an eye type of crime/punishment. But if by "pardoning" her is his stance against capital punishment, then an eye for an eye type of punishment is a contridiction to his teaching. Is there a place in the Bible where Christ is against execution of a murderer (not a whore or adultress)?

OK ... to paraphrase what is above.

A) If Christ's "pardon" of the adulteress was because he is against all execution ... the Bible has a contridiction between the Old and New Testaments (God's Law vs. Jesus' Law).

B) If Chrst's "pardon" of the adulteress was because in his view the punishment didn't fit the crime (& I'm not getting into that debate). Then the chruch is wrong (no offense to BMT) to oppose captal punishment in the case of murderers, because this does fit the eye for an eye crime/punishment senario.

Its either A or B. Either the Bible contridicts itself (which I read Jesus contridicting God). OR The church has mis-represented the Bible to the masses.

I'm not a theologian ... I'm working on a PhD ... not a ThD. But because of this thread, I will probably get little sleep tonite. (Unless alcohol induced).

Hi George -

I believe there is no contradiction present and I do not see how it is either A or B. Jesus came to save the world, not condemn it. For the world was already condemned. It is imperative to understand that the religious, political leaders of that day wanted to discredit Jesus' claims (at every opportunity) that he was God's Son. Jesus was the largest threat they faced (to their political, religious and social standing). They hated and feared Jesus. Bottom line, they (religious elite) could have cared less about the Mosaic law or what happened to the woman...they wanted to use the law to discredit Christ. Jesus knew this. They (religious elite) whipped the crowd up into a �the law must be obeyed � frenzy. Jesus' response revealed their (religious elite) true motive and it also revealed to the crowd (we can insert ourselves here) that the law exposes our sin (pick any flavor). We are all sinners. If that is believed, then we believe we are in need of a savior. The law can't save us. The law condemns us. The religious elite used the law for their own personal gain and advantage. Jesus used the law to expose their hypocrisy and reveal their own condemnation while at the same time opening the eyes, hearts and motives of the crowd.

OK this is the way i think this bastard should be dealt with, first of nix all the common ways of capital punishment obviously these ways are not getting the message across that murder is not acceptable. What I purpose is this , take the bastard up in a helicopter with a length of rope that is 1000' long you tie one end to the helicopter and tie the other end around his balls, take the helicopter up to 10,000' and give him a shove. One thousand feet of free fall should give him plenty of time to think of what is going to happen when he comes to the end of his rope the other nine thousand feet should give him plenty of time to regret what he has done and maybe get a prayer or two in before he hits.Also drop him over a gator swap---no cleanup <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

On the other hand make it clear to him if he confesses right away you will save him the helicopter ride and take him out back and put a bullet in his head.Nice and simple.

Boondock

Justice...

If one person kills another person for no other reason than some sick perverse self gratifcation then they should be prepared to forfiet their life as payment to society for this injustice. PERIOD!!!

Why should society have the financial burden of housing, feeding, clothing this miscreatin for a moment longer than they have to.

For anyone who thinks that capital punishment is not a deterrant for repeating serious injustices on society's members, can they please explain to me how the capitaly punished criminal can ever repeat offend again?

Over and over again I hear that these miscreatins have greaviously offended society many previous times before and have gotten off either through loopholes, ridiculous interpretations of the law or "they had a bad childhood" therefore they should be given another chance. NO!!!

I look at capital punishment as a matter of Self-Defense of society, niether as killing nor as murder. We as a society should have the same right as an individual to self preservation and safety.

From my personal experiences; a jerk is a jerk no matter what the upbringing or background, social status or whatever criteria you want to consider.

I fully support a cumulative justice system that eventually ends with capital punishment. i.e. if a jerk shop lifts and gets caught enough times (for example 100 convictions) the person has proven that they can not function in society and society should not have to bear the burden of continually protecting itself from these jerks.

Harsh? Maybe...

Fair? Definitely!!!

Unfortunately Canada doesn't have capital punishment for anything anymore.

Lowtech... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

An eye for an eye, a life for a life...seems fair doesn't it?????

How 'bout we debate the Bible WHILE we fry this SOB as well as the liberal puke judge who allowed this career criminal/drug addict to break probation again and again.

O'Reilly is doing a piece on this bastard tonite & I had to get away from the TV when I saw the absolutely absurd chain of events that killed this little girl.

This is an election year folks & if you don't think it's an important one imagine a few more liberal judges out there to coddle these wastes of humanity & keep them on the streets.

These judges need to be accountable for what they do & I'd sure like to see a meeting between the parents of the girl & this criminal coddling POS judge... Had to vent, Bruce

wow my brain hurts. I thought i was in sunday school again. from a more agnostic point of view. the idea should be to throw him out of the gene pool. Because anybody that will kill an 11 year old child is obviously defective. IMHO i heard on fox that this ANIMAL has two little girls of his own. I feel for them ,as much as the victims family. but there is hope for them. In short should this defective A hole die. yes should i throw the switch. no <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

The Law "an eye for an eye" was a limitation on punishment.



I believe if you read it in context it means the punishment should be fit and just for the crime. Not excessive. As in "don't take an eye as punishment for the loss of a tooth".



My opinion of this evil bastard is that the death penalty is just and fit for the crime he commited.

Having two grandaughters of my own ages 11 and 13 I can only cry for the family of this little girl, My final wish on earth would be give me time in a locked cell with this inhuman and I would show him what it means to be skinned alive Apache style may God forgive me for my feelings but I pray for this chance. ART99990

If he is found guilty,......I say let's just send him to prison, in open population w/ the the real hard cores. Many of them have daughters, sisters, nieces, that they care for very much. I believe they could come up with a more fitting and creative solution than we can. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> ......joken2

Are you saying that we as a society don't value human life enough to protect it by taking the life of a peverted murder of innocent children?

To not knock the convicted SOB upside the head with a ballpeen hammer until dead,condones his conduct.

You cain't "fix" his malfunction,so you dig a ditch and hammer the sumbitch.

None of it difficult and a stern message submitted to others,who are perhaps inclined to malice,just might think twice.

Hammers is cheap.........................

Stick, I think the KGB might have a few tricks to teach this lowlife which would be more creative. No doubt about it, if you can't live within societies rules, you have no reason to be here. He needs to be rehabilitated right into a dirt nap.

Stick, Im with ya. and good thing about hammers is that they are reusable. I think guys like this hunk of sub-human refuse need to be punished and not just cared for endlessly. Once convicted they need to know the end is near but not know just when....The Russians got it right. Just make this puke work his guts out out bustin big rocks into little ones or some such thing then one day as he is lounging about dreaming of his conquest of that poor child Big Bubba the states own ternmanator strolls up to this clown hammer in hand and pops him on top of the gord a couple times, once he is dead feed him to the hogs and gators. Put the hammer away and save it for the next creep.
I am usually not the violent type but I think the event should be at least live on Pay-Per-View. I would pay say .....$19.95

I have an insight that most of you will never have. I have sat on a jury for a murder trial, I also have a former friend whois on death row for murdering two women, Seperate cases, my best friend is a LEO and another good friend's dad was a Prosecuting attourney. Lot's of points of view have come my way over the years and it took me a long time to become a supporter of the death penalty. Now I just say "Hang-Em-High"

Bullwnkl.

I heard that scumbag has been in a lot of trouble before 12 times. He is a perfect example of why we have 3 strikes and your out in Calif. If you commit 3 felonies you go away for the rest of your life.

Actually, I think that 3 times is 2 too many for child molesters, rapists and murders.

Conrad

Put him loose in Tampa stadium, put me in the stands with my 17HMR and go away. Hope it takes me SEVREAL boxes afore I can leave knowing he won't!

George - I forgot to state an important point regarding your A or B deductive reasoning arguement. All 66 chapters of the Bible can be summed up in one verse: Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord". Jesus, being fully man AND fully God was in a position to condemn the adulterous woman. Sin means death (everyone experiences a physical death, only those who have accepted Christ will be spared a spiritual death) ...God says so...no way to sugar coat it. Jesus, being the gift of eternal life, told the woman, who after opening her eyes and seeing that the crowd had left, that since none of her accusers were there to condemn her that neither would he and that she was to go and sin no more (Jesus being the only judge in this equation). This is a beautiful example depicting the grace, love and compassion of God who desires that NONE should parish.

Well I'm probably going to burn in hell any how so let me fry the bastard !

A slow painful death should be in store for him, IMHO. If we, as a society start dealing with anyone who commits this sort of crime in this manner. Do ya think that quite possibly, this sort of crime might not happen as much ?

Just my 2 cents.

BMT;
I believe Alan R has it right with this quote from Paul's letter to the Romans:
Rom 13:3-4 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil.

You have to realize that this verse from Romans is New Testament, Post-Ressurrection, Inspired-Apostolic doctrine. This is not Old Testament. So in some limited way God has in fact, for the cause of law and order delegated some of His vengeance to the State, "to execute wrath on the evil doer" If the State fails in this, then they have sinned against God's command. The most Christian thing that could happen to this man, (if guilty) is to give him a bible for a month or so, encourage him to make peace with God and then hang him from the neck until dead, in public so others may fear, after a swift and speedy trial.

Also please realize that at the time of Christ the Roman soldiers were the "police" and they executed criminals all the time, YET, Christ interacts with many soldiers and Centurions but never rebukes a soldier for soldiering. Nor does John the Baptist.

Most main stream Christian Denominations have always recognized the right of the State to execute criminals for various henious crimes. R/C Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran, Most Calvinists: ie., Presbyterians, Congregationalists, Dutch Reformed etc., and the Church of England and Episcopalians, and Methodists, Most Holiness offshoots including many Pentecostals.

The "peace" churches such as the Quakers may be the only exception. Even the non-resistive Anabaptists, (Mennonites & Amish) recognize the right of the State to execute criminals, they simply believe no sanctified Christian should bear the sword or flip the switch. I disagree, based on Paul's plain statement quoted above..."He is a minster of God to thee..."

So the hangman, carrying out his duty after a just and fair trial is just as much a Gospel Minister as Billy Graham.

I agree.

Pacifists will certainly go to heaven.....just sooner than most if it's left up to the criminals. FRY THE SOB & be done with it. It's a cold winter & the fires of hell need more fuel. Bruce

Yup. What everyone else said.

Cept.....I still think that the death penalty is administered as justice, a consequence to very very serious misconduct, NOT emotional revenge.
Of course, that's what I think, not what I feel.

You are correct in your interpretation. It is easy to take the eye for an eye mentallity, but the Bible truly shows us that any killing is wrong, and there is nothing we can do to this man that will restore that poor little girl. Killing him is just revenge, no matter what spin you try to put on it. Lock him up for life, it is a fair and just consequence, and trust in the Lord to judge him.

"Bible truly shows us that any killing is wrong"

Rick...can you support that statement with specific scripture that reveals such? To say that God's word says killing is wrong and yet God ordained capital punishment means that God made a mistake.

Gen 9:6 Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man.

Executing this man is not revenge...it is justice. The Lord will judge him, whether he is executed or imprisoned for life. Remember, this murderer has already been imprisoned several times.

I guess it comes down to how you view the Apostle Paul.

His words are very strong for biblical Christians, "avenger" "execute wrath" etc.

I think the context carries the idea of anger, vengeance, justice, punishment, etc. But it is in the context of the State doing it so it would seem that vigilantism is anathema, (perhaps), because what about when the state fails in its obligations? This miscreant should have been beaten in the head with a hammer a long time ago.

God has anger. If you believe that Isaiah speaks of Christ glorified then towards the end He, (Christ) treads the winepress of God's just wrath, He stains his garments with blood.

No indeed, I firmly believe that all good biblical Christians should be infuriated, angry, and demand the death penalty, and in the context of the Dec of Ind, if that does not come about they should "reform" government to secure the just ends of government, and that includes the execution of kidnappers.

If the government doesnt fry this guy they sin in the eyes of God, in the light of biblical revelation.

Frying would be way too fast, Take up a collection and rent the Budweiser Clydesdales, attach a stout rope to all four limbs and giddy-up. Only real slow. I have no empathy for someone who would PREY on children. It should also be televised to all prisons and those in for crimes against children should be mandated to watch as step 1 in the parole process. We all learn by example, and the sooner these sic Bastards learn there is a terrible price to pay for this kind of behavior, the sooner it will start to decline and go away. I agree there will still be the odd case now and then that just can't help themselves and don't care but I'm willing to bet they would be few and farther between were the punishment more severe. Sorry for the Rant, now I feel better... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Brian

hey PDS

Fry him but give him a chance to repent

BB

Why so he can feel better about himself before we fry his azz ?

Aside From The Religious Argument...

The greatest irony and "injustice" is that of sending this J.Smith to prison for life, should he be found guilty. Why??

Prisons are built, maintained, administered, and perpetuated with TAX MONEY from honest, hardworking citizens, in order to incarcerate the criminals. Therefore, the parents and relatives of the little girl murdered by J. Smith, would be, literally, paying for this man's incarceration. They would be paying for his food and bedding, soap and his toilet paper, toothpaste and television, his books and weights and excercise equipment and of course, his lawyers who would be fighting for his appeals and release. All his medical needs, dental necessities, haircuts and clothing, would be paid for by his "victims." Until the day he died, in the slam's hospital.

This is an egregious injustice!

Obviously, one can argue that the parents and relatives of the little murdered girl would only be paying a few tax cents each year to maintain and sustain J. Smith, but no matter, it's still a terrible injustice, to perpetuate the grief and agony of those parents, knowing that everytime they paid their taxes, Federal, State, or local, their money went to make things comfortable for the man who viciously, brutally, maliciously, murdered their daughter.

I say, if Smith is found guilty, ( along with all other vicious murderers on death row ) send him to that Great Prison In The Beyond From Which There Is No Parole.

L.W.

Strapped into a similar chair right next to this scumbag should be the judge who let this dickhead back on the streets in the first place... Just continuing examples of our laughable 'justice' system and liberal judges who preside in these matters...

Same scenario with Dru Chjodin (sp?) in Minnesota.. The dickhead who did her in was a level 3 sex offender who was (of course) free as a bird to kill again..

If that daughter was mine, I'd be in the courtroom asking for a few words.. If granted, I would be staring at the defendant stating as fact, "If and when you are ever released from prison, the very first person you will be seeing outside the gate is ME, and I will guarantee you that within 24 hours of your release, they will be shipping what little remains of your carcass they can find to a funeral parlor for burial. But before that happens, your death will be sure, the screaming will be loud, and it will take HOURS for you to die, all the while you will be pleading for it to be over with while I'm laughing at you and asking what's the hurry? The parts of your body that may be missing at first, will be in a package sent to the judge who lets you out.

Redneck I like you thinking,Amen to that you have the right idea!

Any one here rember the history of the French Revolution, the frogs may have gotten something right just once, Fry the criminal and the judges who let these creatures go on society.
Only child molesters should spend a while in a living hell while waiting for their terrible death. Plus I say put it on Pay-per -View to help defer the costs. Hey how about a new reality show, "Waiting To Die a Horrible Death" couldn't be as gory as some of the crap comming out of Hollyweird these days.

Bullwnkl

This guy is 37 years old.
Don't you people think for a minute this is the first time he woke up and said to himself....Hey, I think I'll kill an innocent little defenseless girl today!
The only difference is there is picture proof that he killed this time, what about the other times????
Am I wrong?
Give him a room with the guy that slapped Jeffrey Dahmer around in the shower for 20 minutes before the guards could slowly meander in and break it up.
I might be a little off base here, but I like a double extra good long lead when I'm heading for the home plate.

Great posts here, I'm with Dixie Freedom on this.

A fair trial, a rope, and a tree. No use dwelling on it, just get it over with and let justice be done.

Birdwatcher

Geez Guys . . . . . . .

I go away for a few hours and I find 50 posts.

The Old Testament and the New Testament are both included in the Bible. The Old Testament is guarded carefully by most Christians as our history and background. But the New Testament, coming after the birth of Christ, controls.

Just as the Magna Carta and the Declaration of Independence came before the Constitution, we study them, cherish them, and uphold their ideals, but what is set forth in the Constitution generally overrules a contradictory statement in the Declaration of Independence.

The Old Testament contains the 10 commandments, but Jesus distilled them into 2 statements: Love God before all others, Love your neighbor as you love yourself.

Jesus also healed a man on the Sabbath, in direct violation of a commandment (healing a man = work, thus he worked on the Sabath). When asked why he did so, Jesus asked wether the Commandments were given to serve man, or man to serve the commandments?

The point being that the Commandments were not given to us as rules that we should over-analyze and find loopholes in, but as guidance to help us live our lives.

This is where the "Kill" vs. "Murder" debate fails. Jesus himself violated the technical meaning of a commandment in order to comply with the broader spirit of the commnadments which is "love thy neighbor."

Here, we are asked to love those who are Hard to Love (Jesus asks us to do that more than once in the Bible). I don't for a minute suggest that we let the bastard out to do it again. But, killing the jerk is not what Jesus would have done. Locking him up-forever, probably is.

Remember the Lord's prayer says: "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us."

Yeah, I know this sucks and is unsatisfying.

But seeking earthly justice is not what Christianity is about.

God Bless,

BMT

BMT;
It would seem at the very least you ought to be commended for your courage to stay with an unpopular position! heh heh heh, Nonetheless I vote for Redneck too on this...

BMT; I am curious as to your views, and it is a good question that applies to many issues we see today within and without the Church. Was Paul's doctrine inspired by Christ? Paul says it was. When Paul writes his letter to the Romans it is proper Christian theology to consider this letter to be from Christ Himself via the Holy Spirit who inspired the Apostle. So when Paul writes, "he beareth not the sword in vain..." it is Jesus Christ Himself, Glorified at the right hand of the Majesty on High, speaking through the Apostle.

I know some folks don't hold to that these days, but that has been the position of the Church, R/C Protestant, E/O for near about 2000 years, until German Higher Criticism came along and they got to wondering what the definition of is is...

What are your thoughts on this specific issue, ie., Paul's inspiration???

I say put the Judge in the chair next to him! It is my understanding that the Parole Agent tried to get the Judge to put him back in jail due to a parole violation and the Judge refused. Bad decision on his part and he will have to live with this forever. No, better yet go ahead and fry this Smith guy and put the Judge in solitaire confinement for the rest of his life NO PAROLE! Down to the Dungeon, one meal a day of boiled cabbage soup with pictures of Carlie's dead limp body hanging all over the walls!

BMT - my assumption is that you are a brother in Christ; if so, you are interpreting and quoting scripture out of context. When Jesus distilled "His" commandments to loving the Lord God and loving your neighbor, he mean the following: if we love God and our neighbor, we will not murder, bear false witness, create idols for ourselves etc. How do we show God love? We obey him and his commands/precepts. Capital pumishment is not replaced by turning the other cheek. Jesus fulfilled Old Testament law...he did not abolish, alter, or skew the 10 commandments. Remember, when Jesus returns (after the rapture), he will judge and condemn and destroy.

The 10 Commandments were in fact given to us as rules...they are commandments, not suggestions or requests. It is God's Law....law meant for man. Jesus healing on the Sabath was God's will. The religious elite became so legalistic regarding "no work" on the Sabbath that the refused to even do God's work...which was the whole point of Jesus healing healing on the Sabbath. Jesus is our example and we are to follow that example. These laws, rules were not given to save us but to show how we can not possibly live up to God's Holy standard. The law convicts us and condemns us. Christ saves us. There are consequences to our actions. Accept Christ, you go to heaven. Reject Christ and you go to hell. Commit murder and by God's decree you shall be put to death. God will certainly forgive the action (if forgiveness is sought by the offender) but He will not and can not "undo " that action. In the Lord's prayer, we are to forgive others who have wronged us at all levels, emotionally and physically. IN this instance, we sin if we do not forgive the murderer for his action. Forgiveness has nothing to do with capital punishment. This example of earthly justice is not man's decision...it is God's decision.

BMT, I sure do not want to offend you. But, you are so far off on your Bible. I'm just guessing, but are you in your mid 50s and still like flowers and San Francisco?



I hope they smash Joe P Smiths balls with a couple of bricks before they put him down for good.

This kind of crime is all to common. The victimization of children I mean. Most of the time the child is killed by a family member, or like a live in Mommas jocker. Man I can tell you some storys that would chill your blood.

This mangey mongrel should have never been on the street, hes been beating the system all his life. And now an innocent child has to pay. Somehow this country has it in all their little heads that giving all these rights to criminals "somehow" protects "their" rights. Its all a big flim-flam you know, perpetrated by all these lawyers. I think most citizens just dont know what a joke the system really is.

The parents and family of this little girl know . We ought to slow cook everyone of these sumbitches.......10

Dixie Freedom:

I am reminded of a sermon. The priest was discussing how none of us know the true effect of our actions here on earth. The example was St. Paul who once thought it was his duty to convert the Israelites to Christianity. . . . . ..


. . . . .. . But they would not listen.

The Gentiles did listen, so Paul decided that converting the Gentiles was his mission. He then set out and set up churches throughout the known world.

Paul decided that establishing these churches must be his earthly mission. Along the way, he wrote letters of support and advice to the men he lieft behind. Often he answered questions that were put to him.

About 300-400 years later, biblical scholars looking back realized that it was not Paul who did most of the work estbalishing these churches in various regions. Timothy and dozens of others did the work. Paul usually did not stay around very long. He set out to establish another church.

However, these scholars then realized, that all of the Letters Paul wrote, had become a very large part of the New Testament. Paul's mission was to write the Bible, and he did not know it!

So . . . . . . .yes, I beleive that these are Divine Words.

. . .. . . . .But, I look to what Christ said, "Love your Brother as yourself." And apply this statement to the numerous lessons He gave us about Loving those who are hard to love (I recall in particular a statement to the effect that it is easy to love your child, but Jesus called on us to love the tax collector.)

That is why I do not put much stock in Bible Passage XX says capital punishment is OK. I simply feel that the greater context of the Bible as a whole leads us to a different conclusion.

Just my 2 cents . . . . .

BMT

SU35:

No offense taken. I am a tax lawyer in Cowboy Boots. Most consider me too damn conservative for my own good. Then they wonder why I bolt from the "republican" position on Capital Punishment.

Answer: I got confused after a few years of practicing law and seeing the agressive tactics that District Attorneys use to "put them away." A friend of mine quit his job in disgust because the desire to convict was stronger than the desire to be certain that the got the right person in handcuffs.

That caused me to REALLY examine my conscience about the death penalty. The more I prayed, the more I realized that the Gospels seek more than technical compliance.

Just this weekend, another death row inmate was set free after being in jail for 20 years. Once again, DNA evidence proved he DID NOT DO IT. Nothing bothers me more than facing my maker and finding out I stood by while innocent people were put to death.

Nothing in the Gospels suggests to me that dangerous persons should be let go to do it again. Loving my brother as myself also requires that I protect my brothers that may be victimized by this jerk.

The majority here and I agree on one point, he should not have been let out! Would not happen if I were the Judge. I would not want the blood of others on my hands. I'd keep that guy locked up a LONG time.

Just My 2 Cents . . . . . .

Your mileage may vary . .. .

BMT

BMT, fair enough, I live just north of you in Vancouver
Maybe someday well sit down, break bread, and discuss this and shooting some day. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

SU35:

Works for me . . .

BMT

BMT;
You have an interesting position, and from your background it gives more credibility to your tenacity. If I had seen those things I might feel the same way. I have never been in a court room except for speeding way back when I had just gotten out of the Navy.

It has been a long time since I studied it, but I am almost certain I am correct; the Quakers staked their theological position in the exact same corner you have come from, the justice system is flawed...

I will never deny that this position has more than a little merit.

Someday; because of my political positions, (I believe in the Constitution) and my religious positions, ( I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ) and my sexual orientation, (I like girl(s) ) AND because I have a big mouth and a hot temper I will probably end up in jail for some dumb thing. AND the Rosie Odonnel's and Katie Couric's and Barb Boxer's and Hilary Clinton's will probably clamor for my untimely execution. AND in that event I will probably be praying for a Quaker judge and jury!

Justice tempered by mercy. I think America has done better than others in this. Still, I would really like to wield the ball peen in this case in Florida. It would be an honor...

I think the cure for some sick societies is an honest dose of Vikings running amok; it tends to keep folks prayin and honest with God and their conscience.

Hey, is that a racial slur condemning Vikings? (Just kidding!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

I agree that the ACLU tends to protect the evildoers too much . . . .

As with Mathias and SU35, there is not reason why good men cannot disagree on difficult issues and remain 24hrcf buddies.

If you are ever in Oregon, let me know. I will show you where the best Salmon and Strong beer is to be found. . . . .

Good Shooting,

BMT

BMT - let me know if I can weasel in on that offer <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

FYI - I'm joining TCGC this wednesday evening. I hope to meet some of you folks on the firing line in the coming months.

Sure, come on down . . . BMT

I think some are very confused about the Sermon on the Mount.
Jesus was not a "tippytoe through the tulips" kind of fellow. The Gospel of Matthew alone demonstrates clearly that he was extremely angry and even vengeful in his thinking when it came to the behavior of men.
Jesus said that men should live by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. The Old Testament definitely allowed for the death sentence. Reference the fact that Jesus is the same today, yesterday, and forever. Jesus said that He did not come to destroy the law or the prophets, but to fulfill and that not one jot or one tittle would pass from the law until all was fulfilled.
He said that a man calling another a fool was in danger of hell fire. He said that He did not come to bring peace on earth but a sword. In Matthew 10, 11, and 12, He condemned entire cities to hell for unrepentant behavior, the kind of behavior this murderer was involved in.
In Matthew 13, he said that it was better that parts of our bodies be amputated than to allow those members to cause us to sin and go into hell. In Matthew 21 in the parable of the vineyard He makes it quite plain that the owner of the vineyard would not only kill the evil murderers and thieves, but one should expect that of the owner of the vineyard. He implies the same in the parable of the wedding in the next chapter concerning murder and retribution.
In Matthew 23, He "woes" the lawyers basically to hell for their behavior. In Matthew 25, He cast the unprofitable servant into outer darkness and then starting in verse 31, He condemns the apathetic to everlasting punishment.
That is just a sampling from one book. In Revelations, it gets very bloody. Jesus said that we are to seek faith, justice, and mercy. Note the word justice. Note that Jesus at the Last Supper did not pray for Judas but for the other apostles and the believers of the future.
When Jesus said to love your enemies, bless them, do good to them, and pray for them, do you really believe that we are supposed to pray for Osama and Hussein tonight, bless them, send a care package to Hussein, etc.? Jesus told us how to deal with unrepentant people not only in the anathema discourse but in other discourses and parables.

Right, but I believe he said not to call anyone a worthless fool.

That has to be one of the scariest scriptures to me in the Bible. How many have not said a whole lot worse to others to their face many times, behind their backs many times, and in their minds thousands of times.
Judges 19 and 20 tells the story of molesters and revenge.

I was thinking about this when I heard the news. As an LEO, I would have liked nothing more than for him to make a furtive movement so me and mine could have ventilated him a few dozen times.

I also know what happens to his type in the "Bighouse". Most of the inmates dont take too kindly to crimes against children. Weird eh! There is a particular ethnic group that would be more than willing to give him his just rewards when they find out what the bastard has done.

Anyway, every breath this SOB takes is an injustice.


Mac

HOLD FAST!

I think they should bring back public hangings for child molesters and murderers. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />



Mrsfisher

It's simple enough: Handcuff this SOB, add chains around ankles and TURN HIM OVER TO THE GIRL'S FAMILY!
If there is anything left of his sorry hide after a couple months, then let the State fry it....

Might even be helpful to tape record some of his cries-- and then replay them to every con convicted of assault as they are being paroled.