Ex Senator Bob kerry - 24hourcampfire

Former Nebraska senator and Navy SEAL Bob Kerrey says he is haunted by the 32-year-old memory of a raid in which he ordered his men to shoot Vietnamese who turned out to be civilians. A member of his seal team and 2 other Vietnamese witnesses claim he rounded up the villagers and then murdered them.Kerrey was awarded the Bronze Star for this action.If this is true, should he be brought up on war crimes? <A HREF="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20010428/aponline215405_000.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20010428/aponline215405_000.htm</A><A HREF="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20010430/aponline052924_000.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20010430/aponline052924_000.htm</A><A HREF="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20010426/aponline152755_000.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20010426/aponline152755_000.htm</A><A HREF="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20010425/aponline204628_000.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20010425/aponline204628_000.htm</A>

NOPE

Absolutely not. BCR

NO! If you use that as a precedent you will have to have a larger trial than Nueremburg and include all the Victor Charlies as well. IT WAS A WAR!!------------------ T LEE Remember: There is no such thing as OVERKILL. Just a generous margin of SAFETY! APATHY!.........Freedoms greatest enemy![This message has been edited by T LEE (edited May 01, 2001).][This message has been edited by T LEE (edited May 01, 2001).]

Da**it I am getting tired of this ghost rising up again and again as we kiss up to the world for all we are supposed to have done, but on the same hand have to forgive and forget all that has been done to us. AND forget all the good we have done and all the money, yours and mine, we have given away as war reparations, loans and lend lease, NOT TO MENTION SO CALLED HUMANITARIAN AID WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE? ------------------ T LEE Remember: There is no such thing as OVERKILL. Just a generous margin of SAFETY! APATHY!.........Freedoms greatest enemy![This message has been edited by T LEE (edited May 01, 2001).]

Two words:HELL NO!Rick

War is War, not a you hit me first thing kids play in school. It's like a street fight, do what you have to do to win, gouging eyes is permitted along with biteing ears. [Linked Image]

When your life is at stake what do you do? No referees or judges, just you and it. -- no

The one guy that seems to now be saying that they rounded them up and shot them changed his tune from what he used to say. Its worth noting that he didn't change his tune until Kerry wouldn't intervene on his behalf and get him a medal a couple of years ago....and everyone else in the outfit said the guy didn't deserve a medal.

NO!Not now.Not ever.2D (ex Swab)

If this young soldier ordered the massacre of innocent civilian women and children he and any other participants should be brought up on charges. Period. I know that a lot of wild stuff goes on during combat but the willful assassination of the innocent should not be tolerated. There were many cases of this on both sides but that does not give one side or the other protection from paying their dues if they are caught. Evidently the body count was put down as VC not civvies. This is a good indication of guilt. I know that a lot of us are still trying to deny the fact that we had no right to be in this country but history has shown us that it was a great mistake. It cost us 60,000 of our own people and 4 million of them, mostly civilians, before we wised up and got the hell out of there. No amount of grandstanding will change the facts. We tucked our tails and ran. It's all on film. It is so sad because there were a lot of great people involved who were committed to winning but were stymied by the upper echelon and world opinion. Just pray to God that we don't get in one of these nightmares again. And if you weren't there your opinion doesn't hold much water.

Garrobo, -- I don't know whose side you are on, or if you are a woman or man, but it is a proven fact old men women and children did what they could to kill Americans and you could not tell who was who. If you were there in that situation, and it was your life and the life of your command, what would you do? It's easy to play arm chair general from a safe distance but when you are under the gun, things change. War is definately not for meek and like you stated if you were not there how would you know. I was not there but I trained some of the guys that were. This was not a gas oven thing, this was combat territory, there is and was a difference. Have you been in the military? -- no

Garrbo, I can clearly see you are a right thinking man. Clearly a class ahead of most.As Americans and world leaders, we should surly show the rest of the world that we apply the LAW evenly, even to our own.It amazes me that we go after every third world nation or person for these types of crimes, spouting righteousness to the world, yet when the finger gets pointed at us we clam up and protect our own reguardless if it's right or wrong.I wonder how some of these posters would have responded if I asked....Former Vietnamese senator and VC sniper team leader Vin Yan Sum says he is haunted by the 32-year-old memory of a raid in which he ordered his men to shoot Americans who turned out to be civilians. A member of his sniper team and 2 other American witnesses claim he rounded up the villagers and then murdered them.Vin Yan Sum was awarded the purple cluster with twenty knots for this action.If this is true, should he be brought up on war crimes? I think we all would agree that it is wrong to murder civilans. There is a difference between Murder and taking a life be it war or otherwise.Had 20 or so Americans been captured and then killed, you can bet your ass this bimbos would calling for a hanging.

Jay friend a hell of a lot more than 20 or so Americans were rounded up and shot or bayoneted or beaten to death. You ever heard of Batann? We managed to hang the top dog Gen Yamasheta but that is all. In all wars past present and future civilians get rounded up and shot or chopped or what ever. If those doing it keep their mouth shut 99 time out of a hundred nothing ever comes of it. I don't understand why Kerry felt he had to go public with the deal in the first place but I ain't him. BCR

Political spin control BCR, Kerrey knew it was about to come out. So he got his version out first.Kinda ticks me off that he recieved the Bronz Star for it. I sure would have liked to seen HIS report on the action.

Keery and his men slaughtered unarmed civilians, an old man and old waman, and a mixture of women and children including a baby by either slitting their throats, stabbing them to death or shooting them at close range. He admits it. One of his men admits slaughtering them so as to not hinder their assassination mission. Several zips also witnessed it. He's doing everything he can to save his public image and politacal life. There are no excuses for this behavior. Case closed.

If he knowingly and willing killed civilians.Then yes ,he should be brought up on charges.NO I WASNT THERE.Just my opion....Ss...------------------ Florida by Birth-Georgia by Choice

Just for clarification, I'd like to know where the report of victims having had their throats slit and Kerrey admitting it comes from.I reviewed about forty articles after reading the above post and have found absolutely nothing close to what is stated there.Even the account of the team member who claims the mission went wrong contains nothing like that.2D

60 Minutes II, last night on CBS.

The very notion that Sen. Kerry is not a hero of this nation is absurd. He is a great man and a hero. Just being a Navy Seal qualifies him for hero status. His duty was to conduct operations in the most hostile of conditions and locations. This was WAR and he had orders.People like the auther of this thread seem not to comprehend what was asked of these men. It is surley easy to spout off the new world order stuff when you were not there. There is a very distinct difference between the acts carried out by Karry and his fellow Seals than that of the Nuremburg defendants, or even LT Calley at Mai Li. Civilians are casualities of war, it can be unavoidable when conducting covert operations Cold blooded it may seem to the observer 32 years later but at the time how would we have judged this action especially if you were there?Bullwnkl.Bullwnkl

Bullwnkl my friend, If you think being a seal makes one a hero you have been reading to many comics. I suppose you think of special forces or rangers as hero's also.If you want a Hero just look for the MOS 91A10. If you have any idea of what that is!People like you are a dime a dozen, spout off on something you have no friggin idea of whats it's all about.If you think for a second anyone that murders civilans is a hero you got a lot of learning to do boy.I really question Kerrey's actions here. Seems a bit odd that he writes the report and gets a medal. Then the next week he gets the Medal of honor! He had a seven man team and no one was there except them to say what happened. Write your own story, make it sound heroic and everyone gets a medal.If you think a medal means much to most vets, you out of your mind. Just to the Wanna-Bees that think there is glory in war.How many Purple hearts do you have Bud?

Why do people feel it is necessary to lift the scab off old wounds?It's gone, it happened, ain't nothing we ever do is going to bring those people back. Why go after this ex-senator and create yet another casualty? He has some guilt problems let him alone to work through them.People do strange things in the heat of battle.Judging from the citation for the MOH this guy was made of the right stuff. I think he was thinking of the safety of his men and the success of the mission. Many, many civilians died in this war. Are we going to go after the B52 pilots who bombed Hanoi?I don't think so.Cheerspete

Here is another board with some information on this story.<A HREF="http://www.HardCoreTalk.com/ubb/Forum19/HTML/000572.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.HardCoreTalk.com/ubb/Forum19/HTML/000572.html</A>

JayH, -- I don't know where you took your training but partner, WAR IS WAR,that means killing to win, no other way in the field. When you start attacking people here around the campfire get ready for smoke and flame. War is not pretty in any sense of the word and is the bare facts, real world, we live in today. I read part of your referal down to where somebody said somebody said somebody said. When I trained troops I would line up the whole flight and whisper a story to the first man and they in turn would tell the story to the man behind him,(seventy men). The last man was called to the front of the room to tell the story while the first man waited out of the room. After the airman told his story the first man was called back into the room and told his story. Many things change in very short order through several people. This demostration was so our people could see the validity of second hand gossip. You sir evidently know nothing about what you are speaking but relay gossip. If the positions were changed and you were in the position those men were, at the time, I wonder how you would react. I definately don't want you on my team when the going gets tough. We have lost enough Americans fighting other peoples wars, where life means nothing except to the owner! My world is changing and I must say for the worst, I hate to see my kids living what is coming, if your way is part of it. Who can fight for a country that will turn their back on you years later and say you are a criminal. Who can be a police officer and be tried for murder while doing their duty, as they see fit, under stress at the time? Do gooders that second guess what happened and yell for their protectors to be punished are like a person that beats his dog for protecting your house. Sorry if this offended anyone but please understand WAR is not for sissies, it is our people who are fighting to protect us and our way of life, guided by the people we elect and appointed to do the dirty work. In war time, most are just kids, fresh out of school, doing what they are told to do under threat of punishment if they do not. This younger generation that has never seen war has a bitter pill to swallow if it ever returns. -- no

Need One, Smoke And Flame all you want Pal. I speek the truth and if anyone dosen't like it...Tough. If I think someone is a dingbat I will say so! It's my opinion and you Sir are not going to stop me from voicing it. If you don't like what you read here, you just grab that little mouse of yours and click away.You trained troops? Airmen...LOL. You gotta be kidding.And you told them wonderful stories just to see if it would be changed...LOL.Then you state "This demostration was so our people could see the validity of second hand gossip."Need One, Is that one of the major lessions you taught your combat troops...LOL"You sir evidently know nothing about what you are speaking but relay gossip."Now Need One, You do read the papers don't you. This information was in the papers, on TV and to YOU it's Gossip!I do not know for a fact that what is alleged against Kerrey is factual, but I must assume that with three witnesses, one being one of his own men that there is some fact involved here. Only a blind man would think otherwise.I sure am happy I wasn't in your outfit Bud. You sound like the commanding type that would get his men killed. Did you have the "boys" polish their brass and boots so they would blind the enemy in combat....LOLYour problem Need One is that you can not accept the fact that the alleged actions taken by Kerreys squad are war crimes if they indeed are true.You have a great day [Linked Image]

No he sould not be brought up on war crimes, anybody who would think that is nuts. I had 2 uncles killed and my father was wounded in the war. From all the stories I hear, women and children were just like men they would do what they could to kill our soldiers. If they had not done what they did, then some of our soldiers might have been killed by the people they killed. As far as the war goes, if DC had allowed the people over there to run the war, we would have won. After tet, the people of the U.S. were misinformed of what was going on. If they knew that we were actually winning not loosing, more people would have been for it. I don't know how many people will get mad over what I say, but i don't care. Like others say war is war and you do what you must to survive. If they were innocent, then it was a accident, s..t happens. The past is gone and things can't be changed. Why bring it up after all these years? let the dead rest in peace, and give credit to those who served their country during this time. It take more guts to do what they did than to run with their tail between their legs. senator Kerry is a hero, because he made a decision that others might not have, and he got the job done. If anyone is mad at me for stating this, it happens to. I'm just responding to the post. 86

You keep taking your meds boy or whatever else you might be smoking. The world is rosey and pass the grass and get a little ass....LOL

JayK, -- thank you, I always have a great day, to see the light of day. It is plain to see you have never been in the military and have always had someone fighting your battles for you, now you want me to believe what I read in the papers and hear on the TV. You are definately one of the younger generation that hasen't been christened by the real world. When the real patriots of this country quit protecting you and your kind of justice, hope you wear your number with pride instead of carring it in your pocket. YES, you and I see things differently, and we discuss them here around our campfire because of men that fought for us. Are you a woman, perhaps a mother that has a hard time accepting what it means to fight a war. Look at the wartime cemeterys and all the crosses of people who have died protecting us and ask them, was it worth it. My mouse don't click and my flame don't die when it comes to standing up for my countrymen. By the way, what part of the world are you in, I know where you should be. -- noOh yes, my men did polish their boots and the floors, I gave many white glove inspections. We won every flight competition,(Honor Flight), for all phases of training and carried the flag proudly in front of the flights. This was a team effort of the Tatical Instructors,(two or three), and the motivated men of the flight. The boys I was the hardest on was the ones that wrote me back from their duty stations, thanking me for taking the time to help them. So little, but meant so much, made the 18 hour days worth it.[This message has been edited by need one (edited May 03, 2001).]

Yea right bud, I have never been in the service and you are little dink service brat playing hero after watching toooo.. many war movies....LOLYou won the flight competition, wow, Did they give you a gold dewy button for that great feat? Kinda like boy scouts with all the ribons and badges for each accomplishment. I am Really impressed..LOLI kinda figured you to be one of those wannabe seal types. You know, Big husky, give no quarter rambo types but instead you come off as the towel boy that hands them a towl as the big husky men step out of the pool ...LOLWhite glove inspections...LOL That fits you perfectly Mr. Clean, A real Warrior!" The boys I was the hardest on was the ones that wrote me back from their duty stations, thanking me for taking the time to help them. So little, but meant so much, made the 18 hour days worth it.What friggin service were you in that one of your "boys" wrote you back to thank you.This is too too much for me. I have known NO one that ever did that. We are talking about the real world here Bud! What the hell do you think the service is all about? Being nice and sending thank you notes... If your an example of what the service is turning out these days, god help us all.You have a great day Bud [Linked Image]

JayH, -- thank you again, you just made my day. It's plain to see you are flustrated and don't know which way to run. This is my last post to you Mr Troll, look elsewhere for someone to play with. This campfire is for the grown ups. Good bye and good luck in your quest. -- no

I am sorry Need One if the truth hurts ya but I am a beleaver in calling an Ace and Ace and a Spade a Spade.You need not worry about me getting flustered Mr Clean. Takes a better man than you to do that..... LOLYou have a great day Bud [Linked Image]

hey guys, I'm not taking sides on this love fight you are having, but hell everyone has their opinion even if its wrong. I prefer to see that Kerry did the right thing and that you guys are just using this to light up the fire. And JayH if you were refering to me about taking my meds, then that is another matter. For a moment try to imagine yourself in their shoes and how you would have responded. Try to see what it was like in nam. And no I'm not smoking anything and if I was from the way you have been replying to this thing, I won't give you a darn thing. Learn to grow up and face the facts. You and everyone else can say what they want, but when a youngbuck try's it, he is smoking something or hasn't taken his meds. Come on. I hope after this is all over everyone came just be friends. Good discussion though. 86

While he did kill civilians, he did it under the duress and worry of battle. And from what I have heard on Vietnam, they did use civilians to take out our troops. They would put a bomb or something on them that would be triggered by an American troop. Would you take any chances if you were in that situation? No, he was definately not a hero, but he did what he thought he had to do. And it is a lot easier second guessing people 30 years later than to be in the same situation that they were in. While we're at it, let's all gang up on the guys that Enola Gayed Japan. They killed 30,000 people (mostly civilians) from way up in the air with an atomic bomb. And they knew exactly what they were droppong the bomb on also.

big hunter, you are right, thank you for clarifying that for me, I guess if I called him a hero I was wrong to say that. I am all for senator Kerry, but some of the things I said that might have affended anybody I apologize. I also believe that if you compare the a bomb to Kerry, that most people would look at his situation a lot different, I know I do. I still feel he acted right and made the right move, but a hero I can't really say that really no more. 86

Ok Guys, my two cents, and we all know a penny isn't worth much today.I belive that Kerry is Guilty of the action described by his team mate. There are two many witnesses on both sides to dispute it. I believe Kerry has lied to the press in his description of this action, and in his after action report, or debriefing. Remember his team mate was a Seal for 19 years, and his story matched exactly that of witnesses on the other side.But all of this is hind site. And one item I haven't heard mentioned so far, is that this was basically a covert mission by a team of Seal's to capture certain persons. I have no idea what was required or thought at the start, to quite the first of the victims for the team to continue their mission. I don't think anybody ever will. Would I have killed the old woman, and the young girls. No! But I wasn't their. Is Kerry a hero, No!, Should he have received a medal for this action, No! Do I think he should be convicted of a crime, No! Should Kerry be compared with Calley, No! But it should be noted that they both followed orders from officers higher up, to their understanding. And both probably did their best to that end.But in the end they both have to answer to their own conscious.Phil

Listen up folks, I take all this crap with a grain of salt. I hold no hard feelings towards anyone here. I just lied... But WTF. [Linked Image]

Folks, there is a difference when you have taken prisoners and then kill them all. This is not a firefight with a few civilian casualties. There are rules to war that a few seem to forget exist. Your not out there to kill everything that moves, just the enemy.When you take on the attitude that everyone you encounter is the enemy and deserves death, then you have crossed the line.I don't give a damn about excuses and neither do the relatives of the of the people that were murdered.As far as I am concerned, if this story is true, then hang that damn liberal democrat!And if he was a republican I would hang him too.Big Hunter, what chance was he taking? Hell when you light up the night with auto fire do you suppose the person he was looking for is going to come a running? This is one big bull **** story with one purpose. It's called CYA. Or Cover Your Ass to you civilians.You all have a great day [Linked Image]

Well, JayH, I'm not going to take a position on Kerry's actions, I wasn't there, and apparently all but one of his team tell the same, but a different story from his accusor. I don't know what happened, but, if I thought killing a bunch of possible fighting enemy civilians would, in any way, help a team of Americans.....seals, beanies, a downed pilot, or whomever.....escape, then they would have a very bad day. In time of war, or anytime for that matter, I place American lives at the top of the list, ahead of all others, may not be fair, may not be right, but that is the way it is with me.I notice that you are highly critical of Need Ones honorable service to his country, doing what he was assigned to do. Maybe you have that right, but before I listen to you anymore, how about giving us your service, MOS, rank, and time in country? If any.

Well boys, I don't have a dog in this fight, but I REALLY DO BELIEVE that if you believe the story as presented by the TV people, you are a fool. I am NOT saying that Kerry was right or wrong, just that the media can NOT be trusted. Have you never heard "if its' on the TV, it can't be true?" Don't think for a minute that the media doesn't pick and choose which stories it will run, and what the content will be. Remember how they edited and butchered the SCI piece a while back?And another thing, JayH, yes you can voice your opinion. But you sound SOOO much like the various trolls that happen by here that I am afraid that you will have a devil of a time being taken seriously here by anyone. So if you want to play here, that's OK, but don't be shocked if everyone here tires of you and your borish attacks on people we know and trust. Feel free to ADD something, instead of tearing down, JayH.Tell us what it is that you have done for your country that makes you the expert. I myself am grateful for each and every one of our servicemen, past and present, that have given so much for you and I to be here. It will not be long before Memorial Day is observed. I will thank a Vet for his sacrifice and service, and invite you to do the same. Bill

I can't beleive that someone that beleives in any kind of real principals and the "Right to bear arms" would ever beleive anything "60 Minutes" reports on. They as well as 99.999% of the media are just a bunch of whining, sniveling, cowardly lowlife liberals that can only report on anything in their totally one sided "made to fit their needs" liberal way of reporting!!! If we beleived in what they try to ram down our throats we would be speaking Japanese or counting our money in rubles. mtgoat out.....

I hate to bring up a phoney Hollywood movie BUT I remember the movie "Casulties of War",with Sean Penn.The movie portrays a group of soldiers in Vietnam that end up rapeing and murdering a Vietnamese girl.Michael Fox plays the "good" soldier that ends up reporting the matter and all the crap he goes through to get the truth out.O.K.,IT'S NOT A TRUE STORY...BUT...you can use the same analagy(?)here.The stress of battle makes people do things they never thought they would do.Would you hold an American responsable for an atrocity he perpretrated under the hell of war?Not toomany juries now a days would.Maybe in the 60's(Lt. Callie).

Friends we must remember that arguing with an idiot is fruitless; first they bring you down to their level then they beat you with expirence. Time to go back to your cell Jay and take your meds, soon you'll be free and have to act like a big boy. [Linked Image]

You budBullwnkl.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by JayH: I am sorry Need One if the truth hurts ya but I am a beleaver in calling an Ace and Ace and a Spade a Spade.You need not worry about me getting flustered Mr Clean. Takes a better man than you to do that..... LOLYou have a great day Bud [Linked Image]

An interesting thread. What happened, happened, and we will never know what the whole story is, but the people who were there know what really came down. The dynamics of these situations have happened before and will happen 30 years after the next war that will most assuredly happen. It is not uncommon for men who have lived with demons to try to come clean in the twilight years of life. Kerry is the only one of the bunch with a public personna and public ego that needs to be maintained. These guys are past middle age at this point. Just look at Kerry. He's an old man despite his relatively modest years. The fact that one member of a close knit team finally spills his guts about an atrocity and the rest of the group holds to an alibi concocted years ago to keep them all from being accused of a war crime, (committed for what ever reason is irrelevant) doesn't necessarily discredit the confessor, especially when his story is confirmed by several third parties. It is obvious in retrospect that Senator Kerry has been struggling with his past for some time and trying desperatly to manage the situation behind the public spotlight. And he has been concerned, maybe quite rightly, that possibly there were some things there that wouldn't look too gentlemanly or heroic under the bright light of truth. Maybe that's why he didn't run for president. Maybe that's why he backed off on a couple of key ethical issues under the Clinton Administration after coming strong out of the box. Maybe that's why he didn't run for senator again. Something stinks here, and it wouldn't be right to shoot the messenger until the message is either confirmed or discredited. Mr. JayH might have an irritating bedside manner, but his logic is clear. Our government just convicted a member of the KKK for killing some young girls in a church bombing back in the '60s. Was that the wrong thing to do? Aedes

With a handle like yours Fly, that you took off some TV show because you thought it was was cool like so many pimply arsed punks that don't know their rectum from a hole in the ground. I damn shure am not giving you any of my personal information. Need one, darn shure didn't impress me one bit with that white glove BS. I see him as just some REMF probly washing planes or whatever. His biggest danger in the "Air Force" was that he might get demoted for not shinning his brass buckle. Maybe he served his country, if he did, good for him.Have a Great Day Fly.Bill, I guess a wise man would only beleave what he sees or personally knows. I recon if one took that stance we would have to throw out all the books, magazines and newspapers as they would hold no real value according to you.I get a kick out of people like you that bring up the troll word just because they can't take the heat. I voice my opinion and have a right to do so. If you have a problem with that I am sure as a big boy you will get over it. I know the lessions in life can be harsh but most survive.I do add something everytime I post my friend. Though you may not like what I post, nor my ideas, simply because I do not run with the herd. I am quite capable of seeing what the herd dose not. Bill.. you have a Good one too.MtGoat... Qoute "I can't beleive that someone that beleives in any kind of real principals and the "Right to bear arms" would ever beleive anything "60 Minutes" reports on."Your real sharp there bud, as if believing in right to bear arms qualifies one as a super intellectual. A lot of gun owners are dummer than rocks in case you didn't know. Think before you write so you don't make us all look bad.You have a Great day also.Stinky... You just keep watching those movies...LOLBullwnkl my friend. I thought you died after that last thrashing I gave you. Now I see your back like a bad penny spouting your low life BS. You best go back to your Moma before I give you another thrashing Boy.You have a Great Day Bullwnkl.Aedes... Great post. It is refreshing to see someone here is capable of thinking. You have a Super Great Day. [This message has been edited by JayH (edited May 04, 2001).]

Flash Headline:Trolls Live!!!!subheadline:Typical New York Troll found on 24hourcampfire board. Puffed up, full of himself, and has not been there and done that.Further study or replies unnecessary.

CAT, -- we have a bored young drop out looking for something to entertain himself. "Silence is the only real substitute for brains"! Ignore and he will find a sandpile somewhere else. -- no

Need One, You big fibber, you said you wern't going to post to the troll again. Read your above post Mr Clean.Again you have been caught in a Lie...LOLHey, Fly Crap. You be one bright Mother*****. You watch out, that Troll just might slap your silly arse on these boards and make you out to be a fool.Now why don't we all just Kiss and Make Up. You can put on your best and brightest Lip stick if you wish...LOL You All Have a Great day [Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by JayH (edited May 04, 2001).]

JayH I can no longer stand it, I was involved in the S.E. Asia fiasco in 1964-1965 and even early on in those days we lost the thin veneer of civilization very rapidly! When you are afraid everything is trying to hurt, maim or kill you your whole perspective on life as you know it changes rapidly. The �enemy� right or wrong was every where, even little kids too young to know what they were doing. It did not take long to realize that the only goal to keep in mind was to keep you and your troops alive to return to the world. ANY WAY YOU COULD I don�t know if Kerry did bad or not, and don�t care as long as his motive was to save his team and himself and after 32 years it is a moot point anyway. Yes it is wrong to kill innocents but under the rules of engagement in place over there a free fire zone was considered to be occupied by all enemy. The purpose of war is to beat your enemy into submission or vanquish him entirely by killing as many as you can. That is a real UGLY fact but none the less a fact. And war is the ultimate in ugly and a thing no reasonable person wants, but most reasonable people will fight if pushed hard enough. As for slamming other posters on this board, a real good rule of thumb is: Walk a mile in their shoes before you make wild judgements or statements! By the way I never wrote my instructors, but I by damn thanked them frequently in my mind when TSHTF over there. Not to mention a fine bunch of dedicated troops I was privileged to serve with. Some of whom did not make it back to the WORLD. OK off the soap box, have a good day!------------------ T LEE Remember: There is no such thing as OVERKILL. Just a generous margin of SAFETY! APATHY!.........Freedoms greatest enemy!

JayH, you say that you add something everytime you post. The only thing you have done the past couple of times is insulted everybody on the board with your childish manners. Hasn't your mother ever told you, "If you don't have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all." All you are doing is making an *$$ of yourself by insulting everybody. That is not the way to defend your views. And if you start insulting me for saying this, then you have only proved my point. Have a great day, and please add wisdom, not insults, when you post.

Big Hunter, I call them as I see them. You seem to neglect the fact that I have been taking quite a bit of flack here. One good turn deserves another in my book. So please forgive me as it is not in my nature to take crap from anyone without dishing a little back. [Linked Image]

You have a great day Dude.

Time to cool this. Now. Please do so.Rick

You know BH, My mom never told me "If you don't have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all."Did yours? If so, you sure didn't listen.Kinda like the pot calling the kettel black.Would you happen to be related to Jessie Jackson by chance?You have a great day my friend. [Linked Image]

Hey Rick Baby, I am on a roll here. You tame these halfwits so I don't have to keep hammering them..... LOL [Linked Image]

Have a good one dude!

For all of you who are biting your tongue, thank you. This will stop, I promise.Rick Bin

Rick's right folks. Let us not feed the Trolls. That way they look for greener pastures to feed on.HEY! JayH, TRY <A HREF="http://www.hardcoretalk.com" TARGET=_blank>www.hardcoretalk.com</A> you can even "cuss like a trooper" over there. This might be even more your speed! <A HREF="http://flame4cash.com/cgi/Ultimate.cgi" TARGET=_blank>http://flame4cash.com/cgi/Ultimate.cgi</A>Cheers T LEERick, And that will be the last I say on this, or to this "person" , really. I like it here too much to do any more encouraging to this "person".------------------ T LEE Remember: There is no such thing as OVERKILL. Just a generous margin of SAFETY! APATHY!.........Freedoms greatest enemy![This message has been edited by T LEE (edited May 04, 2001).]

GayH,.....Im sorry,...I mean JayH,whats so funny about watching a movie?I least I went with a GIRL to see it.

I have stayed out of this one, because I knew me and Jay would do some serious forum fighting and wanted to save ya the headaches Rick! I dont understand for the life of me how he could see things the way he does, but all I can say about it is I have many friends that were over there, and I dont care what they did, they were there serving our country, and it wasnt a walk in the park. They shoulda made the guy a General!!!! [Linked Image]

bcat.......PS I wont reply if he hammers me Rick!!! [Linked Image]

------------------ If you aint the lead dog the scenery never changes [img]http://www.hunttalk.com/icon/bcatrunningcat.gif.com/boykin][/img] <A HREF="http://www.huntandlodge.com/Boykin/outfitter.html" TARGET=_blank>Boykin's Hunting Homepage </A>

Well Rick, nothing good can really come of this now. Would anybody object to Rick closing this thread?

Bob Kerry WAS a warrior when it wasn't cool. Now because of his wallet he is a socialist...I respect what he did,for the reasons he did them. Heat of the moment in a world without rules(What are they gonna do sentance me to a combat zone?)means folks do things animalistic.So what.The reason we have what we have,is because of folks that bled and died,and did unpleasant things. This thread is lacking the respect that MR.Kerrys honor deserves. If the memory of searing hot blood on your hands does not disturb your sleep,you have not walked in his shoes.I don't care about his position now,he did what he did and I respect him for doing it. All the flaming takes away from those who have given in our name. Rick,I second the move to let this go away. E4E

bcat, We can agree to disagree. I have voiced my thoughts on this subject and the reasons I think Kerrey is not so honorable.You need not worry about getting hammered. Thats reserved for the Special Ed class. [Linked Image]

One other SMALL thing........ Sacrifices are individual things and cannot be measured by those other than the individual that gave them. JayH...you started a fire on the wrong board. MOS makes no difference.The poor slob that fueled Enola Gay....never got a Purple Heart or a medal,but saved my Gramps life and gave me my way of life,same as the pilot and bombadier. The 40 year old homely woman that put the rivets in Enola Gay...she's just as precious as the pilot and crew chief to folks that have a brain as well. Individuals SUCK! Heroes are made by teams of folks that sacrifice for the greater good. MOS does NOT matter,except to glory seekers with INDIVIDUAL goals. Hitler taught us about individuals,and the sheep that worship them. Go to Rosie O's site and debate and see what you get,lotsa sheep there! E4E

E4E... I agree with you that we all contributed something one way or the other, be it taxes, military service or whatever.I hold Vets in high reguard, reguardless of what they did in the service, but, let me say this, its one thing to get a paper cut or sit on your arse comanding troops and it damn sure is another thing when you are the one taking the fire. We all contribute, but some pay a greater price.Beleave me, I have no respect for any REMF's that spout what they know or what they think they know about combat.Nuff Said.You have a great day dude [Linked Image]

One last thing.JayH, Young and alone,andyour life depends on those that have become your family,only those folks matter,ecause your life depends on it and god help the friggin moron that touches a hair on their head.Better to be tried in the rear,than dead in the boonies,with honor lost and letters written home to the parents and loved ones of those you gave your word to give your life for. I suspect sir that you are the wannabe here, Small unit mentality escapes you. In MR.Kerrys position as PC of this pack of wolves,if he did what he is accused of,he did right. You would do the same if you had the obligations and sense of ONE. E4E

E4E, you don't wanna get under my skin boy.Yea, I was a wannabe. Now I wannabe left alone by stupid people that think they know it all and write this tear jerking crap.

Oh this would be fun, can I sell tickets?Opening odds, I'm taking E4E laying 4/1. LOL.

It's too bad that thread was pushed into absurdity by a troll. It really was a good topic that warranted serious discussion. No one believes targeting non-combatant civilians is proper, but what about civilian "combatants"--ie, collaboraters, spies, informants, saboteurs, etc. Anytime a civilan does the above, he/she becomes a combatant and fair game. In Vietnam it got very fuzzy. What do you do when the VC strap explosives on a 10 yr old's back and sends him into a bunch of GIs? Crud, many of the VC WERE children. The big questions in my mind: - Did Kerry KNOW he was killing non-combatant civilians? - Were these civilians truly non-combatants? - Did these civilians willingly assit the VC? - Was there any danger to Kerry's team if they didn't shoot those civilians?War is always confusing. It's never the clear-cut "us vs them" we all expect to see. My critera is this--if a soldier does his best to target only combatants, that's all we can ask. As tragic as it is, some collateral damage is acceptable. We in the US Military try our best to minimize civilian causalties, but we fully understand there will always be some. War is hell. War is terrible, but it is not the most terrible thing.Blaine

'DIES,you opened it at 4 to 1,it will be 10 to 1 before the ink is dry,and where you gonna lay off the imbalance? Maybe ROSIE will back her little boy.grin.

Gene:Thanks for the advice, but I've got a little gamble in me. I'll just have to fade all the action on Rosie's pick. I feel fairly safe. LOL

Jay, I refuse to turn this into an insulting diatribe towards you personally. Nice bait though. Mr.Kerry did what he did,none of us were there,but he did in in our stead. Right and wrong depends on who's looking at it. He and his team came out alive.He did his job as a PC properly in my view. If what he did was wrong,so was what we did in the Gulf using bombs and missles that occaisionally took out civillians. If you have the background you claim,you know this,and understand. It is interesting though,that you wish to seek personal argument instead of topical debate on this subject. E4E

I thought that after "Shooters" we all agreed that the freedom of speech deserves to be respected and un-restricted. That if someone wants to do nothing but insult, that the best course of action was just to ignore. And now just 6 months later were already asking the webmaster to step in, and delete post. Which is why I thought we all left "Shooters".Just a friendly reminder.Phil

Phil:We may not agree on Economics 101, but we are together on the larger issues, Freedom of Speech and the 2nd Amendment. I strongly second your post. CAT

JayH- What the heck is a 91A10? I was not in personnel so I must confess I don't know each MOS.Rabid------------------ God, Family, Country.

A 91A10 is a medical specialist/combat medic who is an E4 or below and has no other skill identifiers (jump q'd, ranger, languages, etc). It is a basic EMT course with some field medicine thrown in. It is a very basic MOS. However in a combat environment the basic medical skills really come in handy.

Whether you were there or not, whether you smoked pot but didn't inhale while protest marching in London, what it comes down to is: If Kerry and his men did what is alledged by someone who was there and confirmed by witnesses, i.e. willfully and knowingly killed innocent women and children at point blank range without a justifiable reason, that would seem to be a problem, and behaviour less than we would expect from carefully trained, elite navy seals. If Mr. Kerry is worthy of the Congressional Medal of Honor, he ought to be more forthecoming than he has been. Just a thought. Aedes

If it Flies it Dies: Agree, disagree, as far as I'm concerned it's all just friendly chit-chat. And who knows, once in awhile maybe something good will become of the discussion. I try not to get too set, or opinionated, but I'm human.Wishing you a good season, and maybe if your free, will meet at the Slam.Phil

Phil:You're HUMAN! Now you tell me. No wonder we have a failure to communicate. Greetings from....screehhhhhcccchhc,aaaaaakklmm,,mmmlk;m,.,m,m.,mop9punklnm,.,

Well my 18 B shure trumps his claim to fame. I held this MOS for 6 1/2 years in the 5th SFGA on an Alpha team. If he wants to start calling men boys and thinks he is king $hit come on down and party with the real deal!"De Opresso Liber"------------------ "Old dogs never die, we just get meaner!"

Thanks Newguy, I knew about the 10 level and ID's, just wasn't sure about the MOS part. Thanks, Mike------------------ God, Family, Country.

A most interesting thread,with a little conflicting opinion.I'm no Judge,nor jury and wasn't there,so can't criticize the decisions that were made. Kerry served with in an Elite outfit(understatement),in a hostile environment. That something happened that wasn't "pretty" was inevitable,that it will happen again,just as sure. Nobody likes to know the truth of what happens,in the heat of battle. Some choose to pretend such things never happen,others try to take it in stride(as impossible as that may sound),others want to get all ruffled up and point fingers.I'm of the opinion,that the man did what he thought to be right,at that time. I can't begin to speculate,as to what REALLY went down. In the scheme of things,I believe it was within the "rules" of War(whatever that might be).Kerry's downfall,was his becoming a public figure,that worked against him(as it does most). Once you become that,you are fair game,for the media that tend to portray things as they SEE it. So sticks and stones,can be cast about,without changing anything that unfolded. I much respect Kerry's service and accomplishments. That he was involved in that "War" and got his hands dirty,only raises my estimation of him. The guy served,did it as best as he knew how and was lucky enough to survive. So rather than cast hard feelings for Kerry,energy should be channeled towards THANKING those,that were called to serve,especially for those that weren't able to come home. I couldn't comment on his rating the accomodations,as I haven't all the transcripts,regarding the facts. I think he did good,in a bad situation. I applaud his efforts and those who also served,but are of lesser reknown.........

mtgoat, Hows come you Doggies get numbers AND letters in your MOS?All us Jarheads get is 4 numbers like 0311,0844,2111,etc. and when ya get unlucky enough to get a second or third MOS,they just hyphenate untill you have a series of numbers all over your DD214. Hell most Jarheads either just say "Grunt" or "support" to keep things simple,meanwhile the poor Navy Corpsmen don't know what the hell they are [Linked Image]

Semper Fi Mac! E4E

Ummmm......the brass ran multiple tests and found that the vast majority of Marines could not handle more than 4 numbers at a time. LOL (and ducking)

PatActually the structuring of the Army MOS system was built on levels and different areas of types of service as well as titles. It can be very confusing to most anyone. If you hold my DD214 at arms length it looks like some kind of coded document. As I understand it the Army now has abandoned the old system and replaced it with one similar to what the Marines use. By the way where do you think I came up with my new signature? ------------------ "Old dogs never die, we just get meaner!"

HMMMMMMMThanh Phong, Vietnam, May 7 (Bloomberg) -- Former U.S. Senator Bob Kerrey's account of his unit's raid on a village during the Vietnam war, where up to 20 unarmed civilian were killed, has been disputed by two residents, the Washington Post reported on its Web site. Bui Thi Luom, 12 at the time of the attack in the Mekong Delta region on Feb. 25, 1969, said the Kerrey's soldiers ordered herself and 15 others out of a bunker and shot at them at close range, the paper said. Kerrey, who was 25 at the time, has said that his seven-strong unit only shot at villagers after receiving fire, the paper reported. Pham Thi Lanh said she saw American soldiers cut the throats of an elderly couple, almost decapitating them, the paper said. Kerrey was given a Bronze Star on the basis of a false report stating his unit had killed 21 Viet Cong members in the attack, the paper reported. He was given the Medal of Honor, the highest U.S. military award, for his part in a subsequent action. The former Nebraska senator has faced questions about the operation since Gerhard Klann, member of his unit, told the New York Times and CBS News's ``60 Minutes II'' Kerrey had ordered women and children to be rounded up and shot. Kerrey said last month he wouldn't run for the presidency in 2004 and felt ``shame'' over the incident.(Washington Post 5-7)

Big war hero. Just another lying liberal dummycrap.

Having been where hes at and got the TShirt, I had a lot of things to say in the last couple of Posts. Big problem is No ONE got to read them. Kerry was in what is called a Free Fire Zone. There are not supposed to be any Civilians there. Half the Body count in RVN came from indigenous Personell. I probably hit a couple by accident myself. With Politics aside, Kerry would be under investigation for War Crimes right now and well should be. I don't believe the Gook witness' as any Grunt worth his Salt never leaves a future trigger puller behind. I don't believe that throats were cut, it is very Messy if you have ever seen it. I do believe that Kerry and his guys killed Civilians that supported the NVA/VC faction. SO what. I do object to him accepting an award for capping a bunch of Papa sans, Mamma sans, baby sans and the Water Bulls too. War is not fun, it is not pretty and you do things you normally wouldn't. He lost his leg there, but I was in a Non abulatory ward with lots of guys without running gear. Big thing is their Daddies didn't buy them the CMOH. I hope this Post doesn't offend the Powers that be. because evidentally the last three did.

Inspector:No one here deleted your posts. Simple as that.It bears repeating, we don't play those games here. No spamming, no post deletion. We've been known to close a thread when the major players request it, and we've deleted a post or two when the poster requests it or with their consent. But aside from those rare exceptions, we don't moderate. If we did, there are a few posts in this very thread that would have earned an 86.Relax, will ya.Rick Bin[This message has been edited by RickBin (edited May 07, 2001).]

well much has been said about this issue well i feel like i should put in my two cents i live in nebraska i do not like bob kerry and i never voted for him. but with what he did during the vietnam war what the HELL do people expect everyone knows that civilians get killed in war and those civilians that were killed were in the way cause bob kerry and his unit were returning fire at the viet cong who used their own people as shields. this last statement may offend some people but this is just my two cents the civilians that were killed no great loss they were just untrustworthy vietnamese so why should we as americans believe anything they say.

rick, i thought I was the only 86'd in the group, no need for anyone else to get it. I hope I never get the 86 here. As far as this topic goes I am all for Kerry.

Strange times,make people do strange things. Anybody else seen the elephant and kicked his ass? Armchair quaterbacks are a dime a dozen.Mr.Kerry has done what he done,and joined the list of folks that can kiss my hairy butt.However his tour of duty is hands off for me and the vets I know. ****in' contests are different times and places,and folks that ain't had to choose in the heat of the moment,have no business judging them for their actions. Especially when they enjoy the fruits of the effort of those under the microscope. I worry that I might have done the same that he is accused of,in the same situation that he is purported to have been in. Regardless what he is now politically,I am in his debt,and so are the rest of us. E4E

and i am in tim mcveighs debt for what he did for our country

Dingbat, that was a little different. He deliberately planned out and carried out his bombing. Mr. Kerry was in the heat of battle and did what he thought he had to do to get his men out alive. It is a lot easier to judge people's decisions 30 years later than to be in the same situation ourselves.

are you saying kerry didnt plan and carry out his mission. same difference to me.

Yeah, I'm sure there were a lot of green tracers, rpg's and mortar rounds arcing out of the Murrah building at his coward *ss. ------------------ Shoot straight and often!

o ic then you agree dat mcveigh did the right thing.

sorry deal, but the world turns. McVeigh, or whatever. Well, you wern't there! Well, who defines war and warriors. maybe our country is always at war, and there is always a victim. Clinton and Bush senior thought it was fine entertainment to bomb and kill from a comfortable distance, Clinton in particular, but Bush had his 100 billion "desert storm". McVeigh bombed a federal building with a van full of fertilizer. Clinton bombed aspirin factories and Kosovo, and Afganistan with zillion $$ bombs and missles to distract public attention from an indiscreet blow job. Is war different face to face or dropping smart bombs from 30,000 feet? Kerry fup ducked. He knows it. He will die young, and his MOH is. . .whatever. Aedes

Dingbat, you've chosen a fitting handle if you actually believe that McVeigh did the right thing. He in NO way helped better this country. You don't go blowing up buildings, and killing innocent civilians in your own country because you believe the government has done something wrong. You don't have that right and those people in NO way were connected to what the government did at Waco or Ruby Ridge. I don't know all the facts of Ruby Ridge, but I think the government did nothing wrong at Waco. The "Branch Dividians" messed up when they opened fire on the ATF serving a warrant for illegal firearms. After those ATF officers were killed what the government should have done that day is blow the whole compound to hell. Anyways, it's absurd to believe McVeigh is right, hell he's not an American to do something like that.......GH

i thought mcveigh wes in the army or something so he ias an american

WOOOOP WOOOOP WOOOP Troll alarm WOOOOP WOOOOP WOOOOP.

Ding Dong Ding Dong Ding Dong Ding Dong we're gone. Have fun? -- no

Dingbat, I think it is impossible to plan something out in the heat of battle. Kerry did have a mission, yes. I seriously doubt that his mission was to go kill the civilians. As for McVeigh, I thought (hoped) you were being sarcastic. Do you seriously call killing 168 people, children included, doing the right thing? There are a lot more peaceful ways to go against the government.

Guys:Well, I don't want to step on anyone's toes here, but, in a more positive light, howabout if you guys all check out the contest and see if we can't start some different posts.I mean, this one's here, ain't going nowhere, but isn't it kinda depressing after a while?Just looking to liven things up and give away some stuff.Rick

Rick Baby, I just got post 100 on this thread. Eat your heart out....LOL

Darn it Jay, it's just too bad that you didn't wait until today to post this. If it had begun after the official contest start, you would have won hands down. Have a wonderful day! [Linked Image]

I am not into contests. Betcha Rick ain't gonna like that! I caught Ricks post about "The Contest". Things must be slow for him.Rick, it's sumertime Bud. Some people have a life besides the boards. Ya might want to give all your posters one of those compasses to find their way back next winter... LOLYall have a good one!

Uhhhh....Yeah. Rick...glad ya let this one go till it rotted in the hallway.Thanks. E4E

The only thing this story tells me is the US Military was in sorry shape in the Vietnam era. I can't understand how an after action report that describes killing people who were not the enemy rates a medal of any kind. If middle management changed civilians to Charlies, that just shows what "Body count" was all about. Is Kerry guilty? How would I know. But if he is, so is the rest of the "team". Now I got out before anybody ever thought of SEALS, so I'm not speaking from jealosy.