I'm on a small 4 day strike(as I've talked about here before),no big deal, until I hear that one of the guys in my crew crossed the line. This guy has 35yrs service and I've been hunting whith him,I considered him a friend, and the other guys on the crew are pissed. I just feel sick about the whole deal. My pop said that scabs are lower than whale$hit. It is strange how quick one's choices changes others perception.

I've spent several months on the picket line and in my opinion there's nothing worse than someone who crosses a legal picket!! You got to wonder what goes on in a guys head, it was only for four days, anybody can last a four day strike. Good luck, I wish you success. Tom

I went on "strike",just the other day.

Was backstabbed by a new Supervisor,wishing to proclaim some notoriety for himself,in the false hope of crashing my niche. Despite my 10yrs invested,some 401-K loot,Health Insurance,etc,I pulled the pin in about 3 seconds flat due to baldfaced lies that hinted at my pride of worksmanship(mighta been faster than that,as I RAN to grab my tools).

It wasn't 24hrs later,that my situation was remedied with a 33% wage increase and a backdoor promise,that said azzhole wouldn't have any hold over my doings(thus far 100% true). All negotiations were by ME and to the "Higher Powers" who actually call the shots/cut checks.

To sweeten that pot,I was offered two jobs by different outfits,before I even hit my humble abode,with both offerings still wide open.

As mentioned prior,I always was sweet on the notion of speaking for myself and negotiating my very own contracts. I'm in no hurry to allow a Sheep,to mutter "my" thoughts.

Quitting is a supreme freedom and one cautious to excersize the right,often takes it in the azz..................

You would have thought that he would have learned something in 35 years. Shows that some are not paying any attention.

Depends on the guys personal and financial needs. Walk in their shoes before you make judgments.

He mighta learned the ability to think for himself and act on his own accord?!!?

No shame in that...........................

Since I have zero use for unions I applaud his actions. tom

I'm with Big Stick on this. I never could see letting someone else decide whether I work or not. miles

I'm kinda curious about the beef against unions, being a pround union member myself.-KT28

You need to talk it over and make peace with this friend if he is a true friend . An employer should never allow a strikeing union member to cross his own picket lines . Must be one sorrid company you work for .

I take a neutral position on unions . Corrupt and communist unions are as bad as the greedy corporations that would enslave a man and jeopardize his life and safety .

Whats realy gonna scourch your shorts is when said jacka** gets to reap the benifits derived from the strike. Someone needs to take this boy out behind the sandshed and educate him in the fine points of being a union member. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

KT28,

See AJ300MAG's last post to see what's wrong with unions! It's almost like the mafia, you join and we tell you what to do or else.......

If you had a clue what the people that started the union went thru. You do it out of respect for the battles they fought. Seems like everyone is only worried about their own little world. I've got mine, screw everybody else. Might take a little sacrifice to do a whole bunch of people some good.

Did they "fight their battles" out behind the woodshed ganging up on folks teaching them to be "unselfish"?

Don't know if I would call it a "beef" or not, more like "porkin" in this situation. While it's not an everyday occurance, it does happen. It's a little long (5 pages) but worth the time if you are interested .......joken2 Local 2036

At least he'll have those days wages instead of being short paid. I also applaud him for being a man of morales instead of only caring about himself. And people wonder why there is so much out sourcing going on.

Apparently some of you don't know the definition of a SCAB. Anyone that supports a SCAB is of the same ilk.And by the way,we didn't lose any money,the company forced everyone to work till dark 2 days prior to the strike so that the SCABS wouldn't have to do to much. It was only 4 days(fri through mon).SCABS are lower than whale$hit...PERIOD!!!

I hold no grudge against a man that opts to think for himself,as opposed to being manipulated as a sheep.

No shame in that....................

Awwww come on Stick, obviously you don't get it...as a Communications Workers of America member one is obligated to blindly follow in return for the tireless and selfless support shown by the union leadership....





Newswire

The Ullico Insider Stock Scandals

The Global Crossing bankruptcy, the fourth largest in U.S. history, has cost investors billions, resulted in over 9,000 people losing their jobs and has set in motion a federal investigation as to questionable accounting practices. As a result of a series of recent articles in Business Week and The Wall Street Journal, a whole new controversy linked to Global Crossing has arisen.



The focus is on Ullico, a privately held insurance company which is owned largely by unions and their pension funds. It was an early major investor in Global Crossing and its directors used the telecom�s volatile stock price history to personally enrich themselves at the expense of the union members and retirees whose pension funds own Ullico. Its board of directors is mostly made up of current or former union presidents and includes AFL-CIO head John Sweeney.



One of the Ullico directors most on the spot over the scandal is Morton Bahr, the longtime head of the Communications Workers of America (CWA) and a Ullico director since 1996. Many of the workers who lost their jobs and their life savings because of the Global Crossing bankruptcy were CWA members.



And the emerging record shows that Bahr was intimately involved in the Ullico-Global Crossing deal from the beginning. Bahr pushed for the Global Crossing deal even though the company was involved in telecommunications but not unionized. Time and again, Bahr used his authority as CWA boss to promote the interests of Gary Winnick�s Global Crossing:



� Bahr supported Global Crossing�s merger with Frontier Communications and opposed the bid for Frontier by Qwest.

� Bahr wrote 14 state governors supporting a takeover of U.S. West by Global Crossing

� Bahr�s support of the Ullico initial major investment in Global Crossing was essential since he represented one of the larger unions involved in Ullico.



Apparently the favoritism was not a one-way street. The Wall Street Journal expose of the Ullico scandal revealed that Bahr had personally profited from insider trading of Ullico stock to the tune of $27,000. However, a spokesman for Mr. Bahr assured the reporter that Bahr was �concerned about the propriety of stock trading by Ullico board members.� (�Inside Deal: How Union Bosses Enriched Themselves on an Insurer�s Board,� by Tom Hamburger and John Harwood, The Wall Street Journal, April 5, 2002, page 1)



The revelation was especially embarrassing to Bahr since less than a month earlier he had put out a press release in which he blasted �corporate arrogance� and singled out the �secret dealings and employee abuses of Enron and Global Crossing.� (PR Newswire, March 6, 2002, Communications Workers of America)

hey journeyman,

unions, like any other institution, are organized and run by humans that put their pants on just like you and me... to imply that unions are inherently crooked because one individual or another commits a crime is as ludicrous as insisting that all businessmen are crooked in the same manner as those who operated ENRON, or the savings and loans of a few years back..... The brand of buckshot rhetoric that you've offered here seems a little lame...

you sidestepped the issue of the individual who agreed as an article of his union membership to abide by union decisions... he has collected union wages... he has received union benefits... and he turned like a rat and violated the trust of the membership at a time when they needed his support.....

maybe the strike would have resulted in the union gaining concessions from the outfit that they are striking.... oftentimes, too, a strike is settled when the union makes concessions of it's own.... And believe me , partner, i've seen a lot of both..... whatever the case, the issue gets settled by an agreement between men who hammer the thing out.....

But a scab?... both the company and the union will despise him when the dust settles.....

seen it before..... john w

it bears revealing, as well, that most scabs, in my recollection, were marginal employees at best... most had unaddressed problems with drugs and/or alcohol..... mostly they were on the verge of losing their jobs anyway..... john w

hey stick, i think that everyone is envious of your status... still in most of the world the guys who call the shots and authorize the paychecks are seldom in the same state, or even in the same time zone as the job site..... it's unlikely that the average working man will ever meet a "wheel" on the job.....

i'll agree that it's a nice world that you live in..... john w

and stick,

you throw the "sheep" label around a lot... do you know any union boilermakers???... john w

I have no "status",other than trying do my job well enough,that those that cut the checks can notice the difference.

The suits that cut my check and call the final shots,do in fact reside in a different state,but that doesn't mean they can't be kept abreast of what's going on. If I get on the red phone and converse,it's for a reason or to relate a grateful "thanks".

Sheep are simply folks that allow others to act/think for them. There are Union Sheep and Non-Union Sheep and one needn't look too far nor too hard to see flocks of both.

Belly achin' and bitching gets nobody anywhere and most outfits will work you as cheap as one allows. There's no shame in being good at one's craft and not working for the lowest of available wages.

A guy makes his own "luck"......................

KT28,
your union brothers make my case against unions so much better than I could. The phase union thugs comes to mind first. tom

Gotta agree with Stick here - he has made his point with tact and grace- no threats.

Someone mentioned that this man decided to abide by the unions rules to work there- but would it also not be reasonable to think that the point of the union is to look out for their members? Could it be he felt the Union had not done so? Maybe the union turned down an offer he was comfortable with? Once he made the determination he decided he needed to go it alone.

A long time ago - early 80's the local papermill was in a similar situation. Union said "they'll never replace us - we're walking!" At the time they all had 14.00/hr jobs (Remember early 80s) well that papermill replaced every one of them- Lots o people willing to work and make that kind of money- being in a union doesn't guarrentee ANYTHING, particulary in a slower economy- YOU may think your wages aren't fair but there are alot of people who (believe it or not) can do your job and will do your job.

Just my .02

After reading this I have a question. Is your job a closed shop, or are you in a right to work state? I would ask the same of the rest that protest so stridently.

For the edification for any that don't know (shouldn't be any, but...) a closed shop is a place in a state where they DEMAND you belong to the union to work, period. You have no choice if you want to work.

A right to work state has laws that allow for unions, but membership is not mandatory.

I will make my comments once I find out.

That's sad, real sad. As to you Union boys- my hat goes off to you. Still have my old card, AMALGAMATED MEAT CUTTERS & BUTCHER WORKMEN, local 340. November 1974-March 1985, changed trades, but still respect a union man and am proud to say, still respect a picket line! Never have thought highly of a man that would cross one. The finance excuse is pretty lame for crossing one. Hell, we all had bills to pay, some much more than others, still, none of our guys crossed the line. By crossing a line, those guys might as well say " look at me, I'm a chickenshit and don't respect ya'lls effort!" Pretty sorry. Hang in there guys!

Perhaps the union boys can explain why companies have to hire outside security and involve the police to protect people and property from strikers.
Every job I have had I got on my own, and I l kept on my own with out any union . I keep my jobs based on my merits not on some idea of seniority. I have been to states where union membership is required and I have seen the stranglehold they have. When I went to Detroit to work on a project for the company I work for I found out that I could not even move my computer from one desk to another. A union person had to be called to move it. The people in the office could not even change a light bulb in their cube they had to submit a work order and wait for a union member to come change it. Unions made sense a 100 years ago and before, but not now. tom

The Union Whorehouse
A dedicated General Motors union worker was attending a convention in Las Vegas and decided to check out the local brothels nearby.

When he got to the first one, he asked the madam, "Is this a union house?"

"No," she replied, "I'm sorry it isn't."

"Well, if I pay you $100, what cut do the girls get?"

"The house gets $80 and the girls get $20." She says.

Mightily offended at such unfair dealings, the man stomped off down the street in search of a more equitable, hopefully unionized shop.

His search continued until finally he reached a brothel where the madam happily responded, "Why yes sir, this IS A UNION HOUSE!"

The man asked, "And if I pay you $100, what cut do the girls get?"

"The Girls get $80 and the house gets $20."

"That's more like it!" the General Motors man said.

He looked around the room and pointed to a stunningly attractive blonde.

"I'd like her for the night."

"I'm sure you would, sir," said the madam, then, gesturing to an obese sixty-five year old woman in the corner, "but Ethel here has seniority."

Tlee,
good one.
BTW Texas is a right to work state. tom

In that case, as here in Florida, you may belong to a union and have them negotiate for you, but ALL employees are not required to belong nor are they required to strike with you or acknowlege the picket line. It is called freedom of choice, even if all do benifit from labor action, all do not have to suffer, their chioce as a FREE citizen!

I do not see where you have any reason to complain. You chose your path, he chose his.

He is the reason there's so much outsourcing going on. Once management knows they can fragment the workforce all hell breaks loose. It becomes a game for them, how much can we take away from them, who's going to oppose! Then after you give up all your benifits, they still eliminate the jobs. To top it all off, the manager gets a bonus for improving earnings. What happened to the days when we all stuck togeather.

Bart185:



I'm no techno-whiz and I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but SBC and the bulk of its business and therfore most of the union jobs you are striking to protect are analagous to the buggy whip manufacturing stage of the automobile industry. Your career at SBC might span the decline and then again, it might not. I don't know what you do, but I urge you to take advantage of any re-training opportunities available and to consider other job options in the future if they become available.



Here's a blurb about some of the reasons for the strike:







As I read this, among other issues, you are fighting to protect jobs in the hometown for people that may not be qualified to hold them, so that they won't have to move to maintain their union job with SBC. You and your fellow union members had better hope that SBC surviveslong term and throwing road blocks in the path of efficiency is not helpful. Does anyone who is not a union member wonder why SBC is using non-union labor in the faster growing segments of the telephony industry? Could it be because non-union labor can be restructured without strikes or long drawn out negotiations?



In short, the union is helping to weaken the golden goose that is already getting too old to lay those eggs. Maybe your fellow worker who crossed the picket line has thought these issues out more than most of his other union members.

No, NO, NO!!!!!!!!!! Sorry, I couldn't stay out of this despite my best intentions <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />.

The reason behind outsourcing is pure economics! In many places, folks (in some cases unions) have priced themselves out of business. Period.

Companies are NOT in the business to lose money. And, making money is NOT a crime! Of course, I'm not talking about the corruption that has been prevalent recently in some large companies, but everyone benefits if companies are in the black.

Personally, the Global Crossing fiasco cost me a good job. I was in final negotiations with them when they went into a hiring freeze and subsequently, bankruptcy. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Look around folks, the economy is in a bad way. Unions need to get a friggin' clue and look around. There are TONS of folks around right now who would gladly work for a few bucks less and any union who doesn't realize this will be in the same position as the ex-papermill workers mentioned above.

Unless you're working for Ball Aerospace or Lockheed Martin, chances are your jobs are not "rocket science" and as much as it hurts your ego, you CAN be replaced.

Unions would be a LOT more effective, IMO if they policed themselves more. Things like focusing on quality on the job rather than seniority????

Man, all of this "us vs: them"crap. Why is it that "management" is only concerned with raping the employees and taking big bonuses as a result? Believe it or not, there is room for advancement without having someone else negotiating it for you. I have not ever had a union job, and after having seen friends nearly starve because some "line" separated them from their income, I really have to wonder who's the winner. It's amazing how many union employees think it's the union who pays their pension when they retire, as well as their benefits when they are working. Look at the fine print and read both letters before you make a decision based on someone else's "information". I have to go with Pumpgun and Stick too. Seen too much grief initiated by proxy to feel that my livelihood would be best served by someone else's ideas.

MS, My experience is in the auto industry so I can't speak for others. Your citing the lines from the media, not actual circumstances. We do focus on quality and jobs. When I look at a part that I need to manufacture the focus is on producing that part in the minimum amount of time, at the cheapest means possible, while mantaining the highest quality. I have to bid on jobs, competing with outside enities. If I can't match or beat their quote the job is outsourced. I don't get to view their quote, and I'm held to the timeframe I've quoted. Yea, we send work to countries like Mexico. Can you tell me how many of these workers can afford to buy the vehicles they're building? Do you realy think the auto builders discount their vehicles due to the lower labor cost? The savings was passed on to the company CEO, in a 11 million dollar bonus!!!!!!!!!!

We share a good management/worker relationship. We're not out to destroy the company with overbearing demands. I'ts all our buisness to produce quality vehicles that people can afford. Visit a plant, talk to the people. You might be surprised to find how much the line worker knows about their individual job and how it effects the final product. We get fustrated at times due to that we have standards to mantain, and when the parts are out of those standards someone from management will see fit to continue to produce those substandard parts so he can meet his production schedules. Thankfully those days are few and far between.

As far as SBC, why don't they train their employees in the new fields as needed?

You left out, the ones most likely to seek protection under the umbrella that the union provides!

Unions only protect union members they don't protect non members and you know it. tom

My wife is walking the picket line right now, and I would have walked it with her but alas I have to work.

Now for the scab who crossed, he should be ousted when this is resolved. This strike is for him as he could retire now with 35 years in. A big part of this strike is about the company keeping the promise it made eons ago to retirees. That they would have health care provided by the company.

Also for every one out there I belive that the CEO went from around $3,000,000.00 per year last year to $19,000,000.00 per year this year. Now if the company would increase wages for every one else to 6 x's what they are making now I am sure every one would be more than happy to sign on the line and go back to work.

I support the union 200% as my wife has 25 years with SBC/ Bell and they tried to lay her off buy sending her job away to India. The union saved her, although she did have to take a pay cut and work out side. She is not happy about the out side work but she is happy the union was there to help her keep her job. I know from experance that when a company makes up there minds to get rid of you you are gone, no recourse or appeals, just too bad, no warning you are out.

All of you non union workers should be thanking a union worker for the wages you have. If not for them and the strikes they impose you wouldn't be making have of what you do today or have any benifits.

Can you provide some details how a union "prevented" someone from attaining their full potential?



People love to bash the union, even union members. They fail to realize that we all are "the union". We have the right to vote for our representation and run for positions if we like. Some cry the loudest, but when you call them on it, what have you done to change things, you get the same excuses. Some like to hear themselves gripe.



Case in point: The lab employees at the hospital where my wife works were represented by a union. A majority of the employees weren't strong supporters of the union. Time came for contract negotiations, Covenants clear intentions were to break the union (as displayed in the past). With the poor support from the workers the union withdrew it's representation. Then the sh*t hit the fan. Without the union coverage Covenant went crazy with new work rules, I won't bore you with all the details. The women came screaming to my wife, who was a union steward, wanting to know what could be done to stop all the BS. Her only response was that they didn't want union backing in the first place, so they got what they asked for.

B*ll Sh*t, Do you really believe that Toyota would be paying the wages and benifits it pays if they weren't worried about the union comming in and representing their workforce??????? I've known a few companys that set up internal "unions" to prevent it from happening.

Oh are we done being civil so soon? tom

I've been alongside union employees for over 30 years, many of whom were good friends. I do not look down on them, nor do I feel that they do any less a job than I do, regardless of position. I will admit that my previous post seemed very broad in its message, so let me scale it down so it is clearer to you. I am just speaking from my own experiences along side a particular local. IN MY EXPERIENCE (OK?), I knew a union employee who would not apply for a supervisory position because it was not a union position. I believe he felt that if he was hired, he would then be fired for having been union previously. In my mind this was a direct result of being intimidated and propagandized by said local representatives. IN MY EXPERIENCE, this is not an isolated incident. Union practices I have witnessed would substantiate this feeling to most open-minded individuals. Now, before you pass judgement on me for not sharing your feelings, remember that I do not feel this way about unions in general, only the ones I am familiar with. You are obviously a staunch union supporter, and I can respect that if it gets you what you need. I choose to have a different perspective, based on MY EXPERIENCE.

I guess my peculiar brand of sarcasm doesn�t translate well to others. I�ve just reread my post and see nowhere any implications or aspersions towards unions as a whole, but rather a direct shot at the head of the union under discussion here, and simply wished to beg the question that if the individual being castigated as a �scab� is �lower than whale$hit� for crossing a meaningless for-show picket line where do the actions alleged against Mr. Bahr place him on the specie $hit chain?




No, I didn�t sidestep this issue, simply didn�t address it, but certainly will, time permitting if you�ll first clue me in as to the identity of the �individual� to whom you refer. Perhaps you mean the so-called �scab�? If so and you possess information the rest of us are not privy to such as the content of the �articles of membership� of the CWA or of this particular local to which you refer and whether this fellow agreed to them or not and the circumstances surrounding his agreement please provide them. Also provide his job classification, title or duties, the condition of his employment or in fact any damn thing at all about him, his �brethren� or this supposed incident. Absent this information as a minimum, without even getting into issues such as need or character I�m stymied as to how so many can jump on the bandwagon to condemn this individual.

Or perhaps I�m mistaken in my assumption that you refer to the so-called �scab.� Reading the quote above I see that the individual to whom you refer has �collected union wages� and �received union benefits.� I�m of the impression that our �scab� is an employee of SBC not the union and in fact has been so for many years. Looking back the only individual I see mentioned on this thread compensated by the CWA is Mr. Bahr, to the tune of over $160,000 per annum if the NLRB documents online are correct. If it is he to whom you refer then I will agree wholeheartedly that if guilty of the allegations against him he has indeed �turned like a rat and violated the trust of the membership at a time they needed his support.�




I�m sorry John, but the big picture here is much larger and quite different than those you�ve seen in the building trades. It goes beyond the current dispute, SBC, CWA and indeed the entire telecommunications industry and has little or naught to do with pay, working conditions or the like. The real issue, as silly and nonsensical as it may seem to the employee needing to pay bills or feed his family, or even to the public in general is one of accountancy � specifically the underfunding of future liabilities by large corporations under GAAP, and the stark truth is the implications to our economy are much too complex and important to be �hammered out� between the corporations who engineered the problem and union officials who don�t even understand it, or who refuse to for unknown reasons. This issue must be addressed as a matter of U.S. fiscal policy, and sooner rather than later�.

One other point; the term "scab" is incredibly derogatory for a guy who may have a family he is trying to feed and there are few or no other options available to him. I think you'd do the same thing if you were in his shoes. You probably understand that the company has a right to do business regardless of your participation, and that if the strike is an economic strike, as opposed to an unfair labor practices strike, you are without a contract when you are on strike. Strikes typically happen after the term of the contract has expired. In a strike situation, continuing to do business includes bringing in workers that you refer to as "scabs" because the union has told you that you can't work there while you are on strike under the threat of fines and other sanctions. These can be permanent replacements, and this should be no mystery to you. It's all about choices, my man. You made yours, the guy that crossed the line made his, and the company made theirs, and it is not easy for anyone!. It almost seems that some people feel that there would be justice if the company went tits-up as a result of a strike where they would/could not agree to the demands put forth. I fail to see any winners in that case.
I do not wish any ill on any employees, union or not. We all have to eat, have bills to pay and want to sleep at night knowing that our future is secure. I find no satisfaction in somebody being put on the street or losing their income for extended periods. Choices...

Tom, we hear a lot of stories how the unions are "bad". In all reality most of them are untrue. Lines of demarcation are there for a reason, at times far beyond what is precieved. The problem arrises when the resonse time is lacking. It's hard for someone to accept the idea that you are capable of moving your own computer, but you have to wait hours for someone to show up.





A few years back the union that represented my wife deciced to have an infromational picket at the hospital. Covenent, being affraid of the havok a few women would create hired a "security firm' out of Chicago, I believe ADT. They specialize in strike breaking. All the "security" personal were retired military. One look at them gave you an idea why they were there. Their goal was to intimidate the hospital employees! So the union isn't the only one to use force as a negotiating means. ADT cost Covenant aprox $300,000. Dang we had fun with them boys, sent them packing within a month. No, they didn't suceede in their plan to decertify the union at the time. One of the most interesting conversations I had with one of the goons, his dad was a union activist in the miners strike. Got his butt whipped more than once. Now here's his son, retired army, trying to intimidate a bunch of women into dropping their union. Talk about extremes!

T, that falls under a job assignment. Under the new way of doing things we don't assign work according to senority. We get to pick the best man or woman <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> for the job.

I am sure that the hospital management was reacting to previous union �informational� pickets if not at their location then at other locations. We know how peaceful union pickets always are don�t we. My son worked security for a strike in Kaliforna. Their job was to video tape the union type harassing customers and employees that crossed the picket lines and damaging store property and vehicles. tom

I've got no use for scabs, never had, never will. Unions were formed for a reason, and the reasons for forming them still exist. When union jobs move into an area, wages for the whole area increase. Amazing how many people ride the backs of the union, and sit here and bitch about the unions.

OK 8Ball, let's hear it... who will pay my pension??? my benefits???

it's true, they pay these things with money that i have contributed... still who do you think pays for them??? it sure don't come from the easter bunny, or the tooth fairy, and it don't come from some constipated little company accountant fairy either.....

heck yeah, the union pays my pension and my benefits!!! ..... john w

Tom, you are correct to a point. The hospital has well staffed security, excellent security camera system. There was no need to bring in outsiders. Charges were filed against ADT at the time thru the NLRB and found to have merit. The Saginaw City Police also did a great job in controlling the situation, the goons were not well recieved. Only part of the hospital staff was under union representation and Covenants goal was to decertify the union. By the way, CWA had a few of it's members join us in picketing, more than I can say for quite a few of the lab techs.

Rick, I have been in data processing since 1978 and no union has ever done anything for me and I don't want any union to do anything for me. I deal with a company that I want to work for and If I am not happy I move on. tom

journeyman, forgive me, i misspoke... the individual(scab) collected wages and benefits that were negotiated for by the union..... concerning his long term employment with SBC though, how long has SBC been in business??..... i don't live in a cocoon and i don't think that i'd heard of them 2 years ago. are they a new company? a management buyout? who are they??? and did they step up to the plate with a skilled workforce already in place??? i ask because i don't know... i do know that several long time communications workers here locally work for SBC, and some of these guys never heard of the outfit before either..... they are long time employees who went to work one day, put on a different shirt, and had a different logo on the truck door...

as far as the articles of membership go, i will admit to a leap in logic based on the premise that the CWA is organised under the AFL/CIO... if you know differently i will retract the statement. if they are under the AFL/CIO it is an article of membership that they honor a legal picket by any AFL/CIO bargaining unit...



why is this company trying so hard to back out of the agreements that it made... and why are so many insistent that the union must concede, without resistance, benefits that it worked and bargained for in good faith??? a few here believe that the unions are only fit for sheep... a few more insist that the unions need to be more like sheep.....

johnw,

Don't pay any attention to journeyman,he has proven in the past(on the strike topic),not to be above board,seemed to me it was something about the truth.Interesting how someone would want to defend a SCAB.By the way,this guy that crossed has no financial issues that our crew(5 installers & 7 repairmen)has ever heard of.The SCAB has worked with some of the senior guys for over 25 yrs, and evervone is shocked that he did it,more like betrayed.

johnw; evidently I hit a nerve. You said it yourself, it is paid with money you contributed, and whatever your employer has contributed, if they match or contribute to your pension. Last time I checked, unions don't contribute any $ to your future. They merely negotiate the contracts that allow you to make the money to contribute.
From the sound of your response, you must hate the company you work for, in which case maybe you should look for something that works for you. I don't mean that flippantly, but, man, who the hell pays your wages? Not the union.
There really is more than one side to it, whether you want to believe it or not.

I'm laughing hard here.....here's the link to the other thread, perhaps Bart, you'd care to point out where I've not been "above board"... https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...mp;amp;o=&fpart=all&vc=1

...it appears to me YOU were the one spouting untruths, misinfirmation and pure bull$hit.





Untruth







misinformation (and somewhat amusing)







bull$hit





While you're straightening me out on those points why don't you go ahead and answer johnw's questions (which for your info are a well thought, gentlemanly response to my prior post, something with which you obviously have little experience) about the company by which you're employed?...but oh yeah, I forgot...you'll have to get your union rep to do that for you since you don't seem to KNOW anything about the company.....



THEN, you can show me where on this thread I said I support a "scab"...what I said was I don't know enough of the situation to pass judgment.



Lastly, why don't you share your (deep I'm sure) thoughts on Mr. Bahr and Ullico.....



We all wait with bated breath......

Journeyman ,I apologize to you for getting you mixed up with someone else.I am completely wrong on everything and beg for your forgiveness (except you said earlier that you had no dog in this hunt,that seems somehow below board,considering your zeal)I'm just a simple phoneman,look at my profile. I don't know about you(your profile is blank). Having said all of that,with bowed head; go F#@K YOURSELF and put me on ignore list....JACKA$$

P.S. no need to reply,your above that...

Yep the civil part of this discussion is definably over. tom

Just a glimpse thru the posts seems to show anger and posturing on the Union side and confident, independant types on the other. Mt isn't a big Union State. I've only worked one Union job and that was in MN. doing the same things I do here. I have no beef with my time in a Union position. I will say the Union shop was a lot less productive, but that may be due to a poorer work ethic in the "city" as opposed to rural Mt. I do remember as a kid my Dad was a Service Manager at local Auto Dealer. Previous to that he'd been a Union Mechanic for many years. Of course management isn't union. When they went on strike he did his job and filled in as a mechanic. All but one [bleep] on the line had no problems with that. The one [bleep] being a fat slob who made a habit of trying to step into Dad's path as he drove home after work. One day the said fat slob did step in front of the truck, dad kept driving and fat slob hit the dirt suffereing leg injurys. I also remember my friend worked a summer job at a Lead Smelter that went on strike. When he showed up the guys told him to cross as he needed the money for school. I think the so called "tough" guys make the Unions look like a bunch of knuckle dragging idiots. Maybe you should concentrate on trying to sell what a Union brings to table, not just what you scarf down out of the feed bag. The conditions that existed certainly warranted the start of Unions, and a case can still be made today, however I've yet to see it here.

Oh Boy!

I was gonna stay out of this but I guess I'll spend my .02.

Years ago when I graduated from college with my Bach. of Accountancy, jobs were scarce. The best I could do was $8.50 hr. I didn't complain (much). I figured it was a learning experience and a stepping stone to bigger and better positions.

I was out to lunch one day and stopped at a party store to buy a newspaper. As I was putting in my .35, a group of construction workers came up to me and started giving me a hard time for not supporting the News/Freepress strikes. I'm not exactly the type to hold my opinion or get bullied by anyone. I told them straight up I could care less! I asked how is it fair that an uneducated, no skill, paper delivery boy should make $18 bucks an hour or more when I could barely make ends meet? That was the end of the argument.

I eventually climbed the corporate ladder and becam a controller for a large plastice molding corp. We paid competitive wages/benefits similar to some of the union shops in the area. Promotions were based on qualifications and merit. If you couldn't do your job, well, bye-bye. We found someone that could. That's a free market economy. Competition and skills drive wages. We successfully resisted uaw/teamsters attempts to organize.

Eventually I got sick of that job and became a cop. Go figure. When I hired on, the department was/is a closed shop. My first year on the job I had to pay union dues with no benefit of representation as part of the contract with the City. How screwed up is that?

In my current profession, I don't see how a cop could survive without the protection of a union. Not from the citizens, but from the internal crap that goes down from politicking and backstabbing.

I can see the argument from both sides of the fence having been there. I can only say that each person has to do what's best for their families. Sorry guys, but my children are not gonna go without for any reason.



Mac

Apology accepted...... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

no, 8Ball, you just sound kind of silly... what do you mean "and whatever your employer has contributed"..... i got no problems with any of the companies that i work for, but they contribute nothing to my pension or benefits... i am just an employee number attatched to a qualifications and work history readout..... when they cut my paycheck we're even... they owe me nothing, and i never hear from them again unless i show up for another job...

Real union mentality here.

I tried to put him on "ignore" but some goon showed up at my house and broke my kneecaps <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

Jog, now I understand why the legs on my computer desk were broken this morning lol. tom

OK johnw; UNCLE! I'll leave now. Your responses leave off context in an attempt to make me look a certain way to suit your needs. I'm not gonna get in the dirt with you, but your comments are proving some points that were made in this thread. It seems there is no common(sense) ground here on which to deal with you, so adios; have a nice life; hope it all goes well for you.

I am having a hard time understanding the usefullness of most unions these days. my best friend and his father worked together at the same factory. his father has been there since he was 18 years old. he never joined the union and he is now one of the best supervisors in the building. my friend on the other hand has worked there since he got out of high school. i say he worked there, in the last 7 years he has worked a total of 3 years, and has been laid off for 4 years. he has a 7 year old son and a 18 month old daughter. where was his union when he was being laid off and out of work. the guys that are protected by the union are forcing the company to move out of our state to another because their wages are to high for the job they do. my friend says that most of the jobs these guys are doing can be completed in a day or 2, but they take around 6 days to finish them because that is what their union contract stated the time for the job was. tell me how that is helping the economy. i don't know about all unions but this one is a burden on the economy for sure...........blake

Ever go into work one morning to find that "new" management has taken over, you must re-apply for your job?



Have your pay/medical benifits cut, then the owner goes out and buys himself a new fifth-wheel?



Management runs company into the ground, files bankruptcy, after 30 years of service you find out your pension is worthless?



Boss hires his son, you get bumped off your job that you've worked hard at perfecting?



New company takes over, your concidered a new hire, your vacation time is now 1 week, when you were qualified for 3 due to your senority?



Ever have 3 different bosses tell you to work on their specific job, all at the same time?



Boss comes up to you at the end of your shift, tells you that you haven't completed your job assignment he thought you should have finished, requires you to stay over, off the clock to complete the job?



Do I need to go on? Cr*p like this occurs every day. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

WHY,would anyone,stand for any one of those things?

I find it difficult to fathom,that anybody would need someone else to clue them in,to simply walk away?

I learned lonngggg ago,I speak better for ME,than anyone else does,as nothing can be miscommunicated even if intentions were helpful.

My suprise at the numbers that need coddled,is difficult to convey concisely. Doesn't anyone know the words,"stick it in your azz,I quit"?............................

Amen stick. tom

everyone puts up with different crap at work. i told my friend when he first started to check out the union because it may help him keep a job. he joined and worked like a whore on dollar day, for what 1 year later he got laid off. when they called him back he didn't get to keep his seniority, luckily he kept his pay rate although he had to fight for that himself. at one point in time unions were a great thing, they kept companies from working children, and set hours and breaks. now i have no idea what they do other than run companies in the ground or out of the country. i am with stick i would rather speak for myself......blake

Not going to get into any kind of discussion with anybody, just gonna speak my mind and be done with it.

I've never been a member of a union and never, ever will. If I can't earn my own way in life, I'll be damned if I'm going to let someone else do it for me.

Stick, it ain't that easy. There are things like medical insurance you might need for your kids. Most jobs around here don't cover you the minute you walk in the door. Jobs are limited in some fields, there aren't many job opportunities.
At times you never see it comming. When I company I worked for went bankrupt we contacted the state to check on help for vacation pay owed/pension plan, they told us they couldn't help us because we weren't unionized. If it were only that simple to walk away <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Blake simple choice for me. When I went from a job shop to a unionized auto plant my wages doubled, as with my benifits. Although under a union contract my wages are set, but a good boss can take care of his best people in other ways!

It has ALWAYS been that easy and always will.

Worst case scenario,you go COBRA on your coverage,until the new outfit picks you up. BFD,if I gotta pay my own insurance,to better my opportunities. That's a good trade.

The best first step(my opinion)is to choose a field in which there is demand for good help,then become a good hand within that trade. Skilled labor ain't a bad thing.

I've worked for outfits big and small,some were a treat to boot up for,others were a [bleep] joke. I never lingered with an outfit I couldn't like,or lit in a local not suited to my tastes. The obvious conclusions,for those initial decisions,should be readily apparent.

It hadn't ever crossed my mind,that I should stomach all things I deemed as unfit and sit by and wait for someone else to come by and wipe my helpless azz for me.

Few things as satisfying as waking up on a bluebird day and deciding,"this is my last day" and moving along to the next adventure. Tramping is an art and the man afeared of bettering things,gets to suck hind tit forever.

The only times I've ever been without work,was when I wished to. None of this is difficult.....................

Don't you see something wrong in your words? Double the money for the same work? Then people wonder why jobs are going overseas. tom

Was reminded of a true Tramp.

I worked with a guy(he was killed on the saw,a coupla years ago),that quit what was certainly the best paying job in all of SE at the time.

He walked away one morning from a $100K+ job in the early 80's,because there were no bananas in the cookshack for his morning cereal.

I thought it beautiful!.................

When I was in high school I worked very hard, nearly full time for a couple of years for a company. I was never late, sick, nor did I steal. The full time workers were union, and us part time guys were not. I told my boss to shove it and i walked because he wouldn't let me have a day off to fish a bass tournament I thought I could win... He couldn't believe I called him out on being a jackazz and tried to lure me back, but I refused and got a better job after taking a few weeks off.

That's purdy good....
As to the Union issue, whatever floats your boat...I prefer to let my skills be the factor, not seniority.

C'mon....I am good at what I do. You want me to work for you, you're gonna pay for it. And I am worth it.
Me working for someone is a mutual relationship. It's based on needs. I need money, my employer needs able bodies.
That's what I am : An able body. If I don't like it, I move on. I have confidence that I am able and skilled enough to find another employer that needs me.
I make my own luck...no need to get a union involved.

One more thing...I stumbled over the perfect answer for that question a prospective employer inevitably asks the succesful interviewee: How much money do you want?

Answer: More than you're going to pay me.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

When I was young and inexperienced, I went thru a lot jobs. When I finally landed a decent opportunity I worked hard to learn all they had to offer and to make myself valuable enough that it would be too expensive to replace me.

I started with the company I'm with now on my youngest daughters 4th birthday. She will be 40 tomorrow.

I've managed to live and raise my kids pretty well in that time and have a decent retirement waiting whenever I choose to take it.

Many of my past supervisors did not care for my attitude and the fact that I tend to speak out about things I don't like. They did seem to like the fact that I got the job done, mostly without them being around. In fact, the nearest manager I have to answer to is almost a thousand miles away.

The last of a long line of supervisors that made it their

goal to change my attitude will retire friday, but me and my attitude are still going strong.

The reason I'm still around is that the company cares more for the profit I make for them than anything else

Well, when it comes to luck, seems the harder I worked the luckier I got!

Thats awful broad statement Tom. Ever have an electrician work for you? What about a plummer or a carpenter? Expensive work ain't it. The problem with my trade is that we never formed a union like the others. We've done time studies, we are competitive cost wise as outside shops. The difference is that the job shops pay their employees low wages, the owner pockets the rest. The price of the parts are still the same!!!!!!!!. By the way, I've got the same education as a mechanical engineer, why should I expect a lower wage than other skilled trades?

Don't like billout rate vs. pay? Go to a different job shop.



Why should you expect lower wages than a mech engineer?



For one thing, you don't have a degree. It's just an expensive piece of paper, and doesn't say all that much about qualifications. And still, it's the ticket to better money/jobs.



So, you may know just as much as a mech engineer, but you are not a mech engineer. Liability for the company comes into play here. If you were an engineer, you could be billed out as such, and your work would take on different value to the company.

Stick, guess your lucky to be in a target rich enviroment <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Wasn't long ago they pushed the need for training in the "high tech" field. Everyone went to college expecting good paying IT jobs, only to find most of them were moved to India upon their graduation. Hindsight may well be 20/20, but dang, whom do you trust ?

Know where your comming from. I'm sure most concider me an assh*le at work, but I've also been told I'm the assh*le they want on their side. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Whom do you trust? Yourself....

Being an [bleep] may not matter, if you got the skills to back it up...

AJ300MAG, am I really? After all you are the one that said you went to a union shop and got double the money and bennies. Anyway you cut it, slice it, or dice it double the money and bennies is double the cost to a company. tom

In the USA, union workers get paid as much as union-free workers. The only exceptions are in industries which are effectively monopolized by only a few companies and one big fat union, provided, of course, it is hard for competitors to enter these industries. Steel and Rubber used to be like this, but union power in these industries has gone down the tubes. Autos are going down the tubes slowly.

Union jobs are way less secure, and are lost at a far higher rate than union-free jobs. Not because of outsourcing. Not because they pay less. The Union jobs are less productive because of the ridiculous stifling work rules which increase costs. Typical union rules: Everyone has a narrow job function and thus has to goof off most of the time. You can't give the job to the best guy. Only the most senior. So it goes.

The Union itself must create maximum strife between itself and the company. Otherwise there is no purpose for the union.

A friend of mine, a United Auto Worker member, reports to a Chrysler plant every day and sits in the cafeteria. He thinks there will never be any more of his work in the plant. A nearby Chrysler plant has his type of worker on overtime. He used to sign in and step out to go fishing, but now they make him sit all day.

Such sickening waste, fraud, and abuse. I'll buy a Toyota, thank you, because they better embody American values. Protection of the inept, rewarding the incompetent, ganging up with big companies to charge consumers twice the price of fair wages, and threatening to beat up working people in the night--these union activities have no place in 21st century America.

AJ300Mag, you're treading awful close to the edge here if you're saying what I think you're saying.



Your "training" as being the same as a mechanical engineer doesn't really qualify you for very much, if anything, unless you have real world experience behind it and a demand for your product.
You may not like it, but electricians, plumbers, and other trade work are as skilled, and maybe more so than about 90 percent of the jobs in any market and yet, semi-skilled laborers in auto factories can make as much or more than us just because of their unions and the demand for their product.

I've had buddies with great college educations, but in fields with little demand, whine to me that I was overpaid because I was an electrician without a college diploma? The fact is, while these guys were off goofing off at college at their parents' expense (for the most part), I was working my ass off and learning a skill which I will never perfect due to the changing nature of my trade. Such is the world I choose, and continue to live in with few complaints. No union is going to change that, even though I've been on both sides of that fence and seen the good and bad of both sides of the union fraternity. I've been through strikes, work slowdowns, and other union frivolity- never again. With all the games the unions play these days just to survive and justify their existence, it is a wonder they haven't been outlawed by the RICO act.

As Stick so eloquently has stated several times, if you're unhappy with your lot, it really isn't all that hard to get some training and gain some skills in a field more to your liking and with a demand that will take care of your financial problems in time. Whining about needing this or that is just another excuse used by those who aren't willing to sacrifice in the short term to gain some happiness in the long term. I know what I'm talking about- 2 of my 3 kids were born while I was an apprentice electrician and things were damned tight. But now I can hardly remember what was so bad about those days.
Looks like you're in for a long haul if you're already unhappy with the way things are going now. Only you can change that perspective- your union won't do diddly to raise your happiness quotient.- Sheister

May well be that way at Chrysler, At GM we've been evolving away from that for years now. We've eliminated production classifications down to one. In some plants skilled trades classifications have pared down to two, machine technicians and electricians. In my plant, welders, pipefitters, tinsmiths, hydralic repair, flask repair have all been combined into a millwright classification. Production wise, all employees in a given work group must be able to preform all task covered by that group. The days of being a "single purpose operator" are long gone. Problem is you never hear that in the news media. The only thing seniority is used for is determining shift preference, vacation time and layoff. All job assignments are made by management, seniority has no bearing. So again my friend, your information is flawed. Things have changed in the past ten years, where have you been <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Geeze Tom, you must practice fuzzy math. Get out your calculator and I'll try to explain it to you. With wages and benifits GM figures I cost them $46.00 an hour. For job quoting I must use $60.00 and hour flat fee to produce a part. If it takes me 2 hours to do the part it cost GM $92.00, but to satify their requirement $120.00 goes into the computer. An outside enity will produce this same part in 2 hours, charge GM $120.00, and pay their employee $28.00. So who's the dumb one? We've had blind studies done on us, that at the time we weren't aware of, and proven we are competive with the outside world.

Now your ingnorance is really showing. Toyota's wages and benifits are comparable to the big three. Guess what else, their mark-up per vehicle is also in the 50% range. Of course you'll never get them to open their books and admit to that fact, it's a carefully guarded industry secret.

Sheister,

You touch upon a notion,I weigh heavily.

Being happy,is not to be taken lightly. I don't do stress or nonsense,though of course I'll never be rich either.

A man only lives once,so he mighta as well cut to the chase and get the goody out of the ride. Perspective is everything and I tend to look on the bright side. Meaning,I'd not boot up for an outfit that rubbed me wrong.

Stress is women's work....................(grin)

Sheister, I served an apprentiship as a Toolmaker. I worked for a machine building company. I worked with the engineers from concept to building a working machine. If needed we'd build prototypes to test a theory. We'd bring in raw steel and manufacture the parts of the machine, assemble it, run and de-bug it's operation. I'm required to have the working knowlege of the electrical controls, I install the hydralic systems (pipefitters plumb them), and do all mechanical assembly. Metalurgy, strength of materials, fit and finish all play a part. I've built sparkplug assembly machines, torque converter testing machines, oil and air filter paper folding machines. We built keyboard assembly machine that used 2 high speed robots to place the keys for Apple Computer. We also built a machine that would slam aircraft tires (to simulate high impact landings) until they would explode. Guess you could say that I have the necessary skills to demand a fair wage.

Stick, where did the part that I'm unhappy with my job come from? I enjoy what I do, the wages are icing on the cake! You ought to see the parts I whip out on my spare time <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

That commentary wasn't directed at/towards you.

More of a broad based generalization. Point being,before I'd bitch,I'd bunch it......................

my math is fine. you are the one that said you doubled your pay by going to a union shop. or don't you remember what you said. Is there a union rule against memory? And BTW I know all about GM I have done enough work on systems that are run for them. tom

Tom I remember what I said, your the one twisting the facts. Yes I doubled my wage at the time, but no, we've proven that the cost of parts are the same irregardless of whom produces them. In all reality, purchasing must go thru a single source. They don't manufacture the parts, they outsource it to a job shop, ship it us marking up the price for their troubles! The union has nothing to do with this process, it's dictated by the bean counters in the crystal palace.

I give up there is no getting the truth out of you since you change postion with the changing wind direction. tom

AJ,
I guess a little reading between the lines is necessary here.

It sounds like you have enough skills in a field that has a certain demand, though I'm not familiar enough with the market to understand where they would be used?

So, with your skills, why are you wasting your time with strikes and BS (and bitching about it on this forum?). Why don't you pull up stakes and find a place without all the nonsense. There must be some employer with the need for your skills and the pay to make you smile?

And, while I think I understand what you were trying to say- don't lump me in with your plant electricians, plumbers, etc.... Those guys couldn't find my jockstrap if I left it on the floor of the lunch room near the donuts. My license is pretty much unlimited- from phone lines to Utility overhead high voltage, and everything in between. Good training and hard work can go a long way, agreed?
So, what was this thread about again? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

AJ

I was through with this thread but am compelled to respond to this statement. I will start by saying I freely admit I don�t have the skills you possess relative to your expertise in machining. May I ask what leads you to believe you are qualified in mine as a professional engineer? Would you care to back up your assertion from the above quote?

How about a hypothetical? I need a pump. This pump will be part of a portable skid mounted separations system used in crude oil/natural gas exploration. It must be sized to handle 200 gallons/minute raw crude flow. Will be used in various environments from a semi-submersible drill rig in the Gulf of Mexico to a trucked unit in California to a work boat off of Nova Scotia Canada to a fixed platform in the Norwegian sector of the North Sea. Tell me, what type pump would you specify? Vertical turbine? Horizontal split case? Other? Based on what I�ve told you what horsepower electrical driver (motor) would you select? (Have I given you enough info? (hint:NO!) If not tell me what you need) Should the internals be 304? Incolnel? (Based on what I�ve told you should you be able to decide? (Hint:YES)) This driver, what design standards must it meet to be certified for operation in the locales I�ve specified � ASME, IEEE, CSA, BS, NORSOK? What standard will rule for stress evaluations on the pump base plate and piping seeing as it will be used both on land in a California Zone 4 seismic area and offshore on a ship, let�s say the ship will meet at most 20 foot waves of 8 second duration�Title 24, CCG? What about cooling? Looks like it will be either fresh or seawater�what material do you suggest here to inhibit corrosion? Will I need an isolation spool between this material and the piping systems in the rest of the skid? How about cathodic protection? The welding on the mounting base for the pump, what code would you specify to ensure it will be approved in all of the area of operation�AWS, ASME, CWB, other? What kind of seals would you specify based on conditions in the various operating areas? Etc�etc�etc�.etc�etc��..to the final condition�.. As alluded to by Matthias above, I need you once you�ve designed this pump to affix your stamp and certify that you will be fully responsible for any errors and omissions to the design and in the event of any failure you will stand up to any production shortfalls, lost revenues, and in the worst case any plant damages or loss of life.

This scenario is an every day one for a qualified mechanical engineer, whose training you claim to have so let�s play�. answer the questions you can from the above, tell me what further information you need to answer the rest, qualify your design parameters, and estimate the value, i.e. your fee/charge out price for the final design including carrying the consequential damages for production shortfall/injury/loss of life��..

hey journeyman,

i don't mean to change the course of the discussion underway, but i'm curious as to exactly what the different welding certs indicate... even the engineers that i work around are very vague on the subject... i can't tell if they don't know, or just don't want to discuss it

the only ones that i see on a regular basis are asme 3, 8, &9... the aws codes are seldom used but it seems that i recall a D1.1 .....

i seldom see an actual cert. paper... i typically show up on a job and either go to work, if they have certs for me on file, or, i will be sent to a test booth and then to work.... when i do see a test paper it will give process info, base metal and filler info, smallest diameter certified to, and weld thickness allowed per process.....

if it aint' too much trouble could you enlighten me on these standards??? thanks,..... john w

p.s. as a humorous (?) aside, i recently showed up on a job where their database showed valid certs for me..... 10 days into the job i got called to the weld techs office where i was informed that they not only did not have certs, for me, on the job that i was on, they had no papers on me at all !!! a test ensued at once, and a lot of people held their breath awaiting the results..... the test was good and all shots of welds performed before the test were good, so all ended well..... it was a stark reminder though, that the information highway has it's wrecks <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

LMAO <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Great post

Unions can provide value to consumers in some cases so I am not against them all. I have seen this "value" in the electrical trade as apprenticeship really matters here. My beef is with groups like the HAW. They want me to support their cause for better wages, better pay or better working condition. The want me to pay a premium for my auto for their standard of living or job security. So what does this cost me, an extra 5% or maybe more? For autos, the union fee could cost me thousands. Nobody is subsidizing me for job security, either I produce or find another place to work, period. Regarding strikes, if a fellow does not like his compensation package, he can work somewhere else, I bet there is another chap waiting to take his place. This is simply the economics of supply and demand. To the union guys here, don't jump on my case, I do see value in some cases for unions as I mentioned but it is on a case by case basis.

don't leave mad 8Ball,

hell, stick around and slug it out.... i gotta warn you, though, i post based on first hand knowledge and experience..... the points that you have tried to make here lead me to believe that you do not.....

i confess that it's a contract company which pays my wage... if thats of any value to you... my relationship with said company, though, ends utterly at the completion of a given job..... they cut a check and i'm down the road

the union, on the other hand, organizes training, keeps training records, and work histories which it uses internally to place workers... they collect pension and insurance money from members wages, which they invest and allocate to the benefit of all

Most of all though, the union stands together when injustice is offered...

i've told before about how a truck driver wanted to start an arguement on a job site... he was in an extremely hazardous spot (standing under a load suspended from a crane, with the wind getting it pretty good).... he was asked repeatedly to move, but he refused.... i moved him, put him in the cab of his truck ,and directed him to the office trailer... well, he went to the trailer all right,... told them he was attacked for no reason, and demanded that something be done...
the super general foreman of the job was called to the trailer and informed that the home office in sacramento had determined that i should be terminated. the job was here in illinois...
the superGF had the union steward investigate, and report back to him... upon learning the facts he returned to the office trailer, and told the site superintendant;

a) that he would fire me if directed to do so..
b) that he would get his stuff together and leave with me
c) that given the circumstances, he expected the entire crew would follow us out the gate if they didn't beat us to it... (280 men)

i went back to work and worked the job to completion... i did so with a lot of respect for a superGF with over 30 yrs in the boilermakers who stood up for a guy who only months before had been an out of work steelworker with his hat in his hand...

Big Stick would have picked up the red phone and taken the matter in his own hands... in my trade though it's unusual to see the person who hires you, and unheard of to meet or speak with the company person who would fire you... there aint' no red phone, or even a phone # to call..... baaaaa..... johnw

jw, against my better judgement(or lack of) I have one more parting thought. Why are you so defensive? In trying to remain objective, I deliberately left out the dark side of the BS which I have personally endured at the hands of the union. I started my career at 16, unwittingly being hired 2 weeks prior to a strike which lasted 2 years and resulted in the union being voted out. Many of the strikers were friends of mine and we hung out together on a regular basis. They made me aware of the tactics which they were encouraged to use during the strike (follow deliveries and harass customers, shoot out windows in the facilities, slash our truck tires, to mention a few). I could count on picking roofing nails up out of our parking lots and premises at least once a week. Our phone lines were cut repeatedly. I was personally abused and called a scab when I didn't even know what it was. There was a pack mentality among SOME of the strikers which manifested itself as a big mouth and tough SOB's in a group, but alone they were mealy mouth CS's. Many of these guys were worthless POS's and would have never held a job but for the union. Now I have to concede, for lack of experience, that this may be an isolated occurrence, but it gave me a poor taste for the union from the get go. As I said, it lasted 2 years and cost a lot of workers a lot of money, and many their jobs. The company did fine without them. Who the hell was benefitted by the union in that case? None of their members, near as I could tell. A lot of them got hurt, but the union rep's got to go home to dinner every night and slept well, knowing that their future was secure. Once again, they were the only winners.

All I can address first hand is this particular union, but in my experience, they encourage, even reward, mediocracy.
It bothers me, as a man, when anyone, particularly a guy with a family, doesn't strive for the highest achievement available to him. This doesn't necessarily mean $$, but a level of satisfaction as well. Some of the guys I mentioned earlier were too worried about what would happen if they weren't union, and not concerned enough about what could be if they weren't hiding behind the organized muscle and bully tactics of their representation.

If you feel the need to attack me personally again, have at it; I've got big shoulders, and you wouldn't be the first. I do speak from first hand experience, and I actually somehow managed to achieve a decent position, which I enjoy thoroughly, and decent income, without union representation.
I have never been out of work unless it was my own decision. Hopefully you can agree to disagree with me and we can move on.

I have been following this from the beginning.

To all of you anti union people out there I say this, If the unions have done nothing for you then give back all the health care insurance, and go back to earning $1.00/hour and working 20 hours a day with out getting time and a half. Oh yes all those gaurds on the equipment you run take off you don't need any saftey equipment, there are 10 more people out there to take your job when you loose an arm or get your skull crack open.

With every ones attitude all for me and screw every one else this whole thing is going down the drain. It is this attitude that is causing jobs to go offshore. The CEO's are showing this and they are convincing the ave. worker of the same. As individuals we will be crushed, as a united group we will be recconized. Our whole system is about groups, look at what happened with Clinton, he went about impossing gun control, so every one of us joined the NRA as a group to hold on to what we had. It is the same with jobs, as individuals we are crushed, as a group we must be delt with. I am not saying that every thing the unions do is good but they are doing a lot more good for the worker in this country than any other group. You don't think our goverment is going to help us do you? Who is standing up for the little guy? There are people that are very content to put parts together every day, that is there talent. Others are engineers, tool makers, plumbers, etc.. but every one has the ability to work. What is going on today is that these jobs are going away across the ponds and not coming back. We need to stand together and do something about this before it is to late, or else the next Iraq we will have to get our guns and tanks from China. Good luck! If things continue at the present pace no one will be earnning enough money put to food on the table much less a roof over our heads. The price of goods continuess to increase but my pay check is the same as in 98. Yes I have taken cuts, as I am not in a union. Has it helped? NO!!! The jobs are still going to China, or Mexico, or where ever.

As a Tooling Engineer I know that some of this work can be done cheeper here. For instance 4 jobs were just sent to China, when 2 of them were bid $6,000.00 less by tool shops in the USA. But some one high up insists they all go to China. Explain this to me, where is the logic? This doesn't take in to account the quality of the tools we will get. We are setting our people up to fail with inferior tooling. Of course they can't make good product with junk tools.

So you all keep on being one for your self and screw the rest. Cause sooner or later it is going to bit you in the ass. What goes around comes around, and it is coming a lot sooner than you think.

I'd submit,that at the time of $1.00 an hour wages and the 20 hour day,there were skilled folks making more than that in lesser hours.

So there is nothing to go 'round,because nothing is gonna come 'round.

What WILL change,is high wages for nuttlicking dog-dick jobs,that are of very modest skills. Such nonsense,will/largely has,priced itself outta the market.

The guys who make the better wages,on the shorter shifts,have noone to thank,but themselves,for the required foresight.

A guy makes his own luck and the reality of it is starting to set in...................

johnw,



No trouble at all as long as you and the others don�t mind what will probably be the most boring post in Campfire history. I�d like to preface a couple of things though. First, I�ll apologize in advance for the writing style which I�m sure will come off as professorial or condescending. 99% of the writing I do is professional or technical related and I find in reading my posts here that style often doesn�t translate well. I�m going to plagiarize some of this from ASME and other publications as well for expediency. Secondly, I�ll start with the basics in case for some bizarre reason another member with a masochistic streak decides to suffer through it. I know you are a professional welder but others aren�t so don�t take the simplicity as an insult to your intelligence. (In other words don�t call me a jackazz, and my wife will certify to the fact that I�m faaaaaaar from qualified enough in the manhood department to go f#%k myself <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) So, in very basic Reader�s Digest Abridged format�..





To start, a bit on standards. A standard can be defined as a set of technical definitions and guidelines, �how to� instructions for designers, manufacturers and users. Standards promote safety, reliability, productivity and efficiency in almost every industry that relies on engineering components or equipment. Standards can run from a few paragraphs to hundreds of pages, and are written by experts with knowledge and expertise in a particular field who sit on many committees. Standards are considered voluntary because they serve as guidelines, but do not of themselves have the force of law. Standards are a vehicle of communication for producers and users. They serve as a common language, defining quality and establishing safety criteria. Costs are lower if procedures are standardized; training is also simplified. Perhaps most importantly to many, standards promote commonality or interchangeability of commodities within a trade region.



There are over 50,000 voluntary standards commonly used in the US covering every facet of manufacturing and construction from design parameters to fabrication, quality testing, marking, labeling and certification. To coordinate all of these standards we have the American National Standards Institute. ANSI is a federation of corporations, standards developers, academics, government agencies and consumers who offer accreditations, training programs and other education and most germane to this discussion a mechanism whereby certain standards may be recognized as THE American National Standard for industry. For government, from local through state, regional and federal the National Institute of Standards and Technology performs this coordinating function. As stated earlier standards of themselves are voluntary. They become mandatory when through regulation they have been promulgated into law. A code is a standard that has been adopted by one or more governmental bodies and has the force of law. A specification is a document prepared by an engineer incorporating regulations, codes and standards for a given project or scope of work.



The ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code then is a set of standards developed and maintained by a professional organization, the American Society of Mechanical Engineers, which through regulation is now adopted in part or in its entirety, by 49 states and numerous municipalities and territories of the United States and all the provinces of Canada. establishing the rules of safety for the design, fabrication, and inspection of boilers and pressure vessels, and nuclear power plant components.



The Boiler Code is made of 12 sections and contains over 15 divisions and subsections:



I. Power Boilers

II. Materials

Part A-Ferrous Material Specifications

Part B-Non-Ferrous Material Specifications

Part C-Specifications for Welding Rods, Electrodes, and Filler Metals

Part D-Properties (Customary)

New! Part D-Properties (Metric)

III. Rules for Construction of Nuclear Facility Components

Subsection NCA - General Requirements for Divisions 1 and 2

DIVISION 1 Subsection NB- Class 1 Components

DIVISION 2 Code for Concrete Containments

DIVISION 3 Containments for Transportation and Storage

IV. Heating Boilers

V. Nondestructive Examination

VI. Recommended Rules for the Care and Operation of Heating Boilers

VII. Recommended Guidelines for the Care of Power Boilers

VIII. Pressure Vessels

DIVISION 1

DIVISION 2 - Alternative Rules

DIVISION 3 - Alternative Rules for Construction of High Pressure Vessels

IX. Welding and Brazing Qualifications

X. Fiber-Reinforced Plastic Pressure Vessels

XI. Rules for Inservice Inspection of Nuclear Power Plant Components

XII. Rules for Construction and Continued Service of Transport Tanks





Companies desiring to perform work covered by the code must be accredited and certified to the applicable sections and must develop and maintain audited programs as a means of proving their compliance and are issued code symbol stamps by ASME as an indication of their conformity to the latest edition of the code. So, when for instance you hire out to work on a Heat Recovery Steam Generator on a gas turbine power plant the various work required for assembly such as the frame, skin, tube bundles, steam drums and piping mean the contractor must be certified to Sections I and II and carry an �A� stamp, Section V and a �P� stamp and section VIII and a �U� stamp. Each of these sections reference Section IX for welding. Section IX contains rules relating to the qualification of welding and brazing procedures as required by other code sections including essential and nonessential variables specific to the welding or brazing process used. It also covers rules relating to the qualification and requalification of welders, brazers, and welding and brazing operators in order that they may perform welding or brazing as required by other code sections.



So that�s really it in a nutshell. As you can see Section III which you mentioned is the same as the HRSG power plant scenario except for nukie work. AWS which you also mentioned is simply another standards organization and their Code D1.1 Structural Welding Code � Steel is the national standard for structural welding, so while you�re working on the boiler under ASME your ironworker buds are putting up structures, racks, stair towers, handrails etc under AWS�



I hope this is what you were looking for. I apologize to the rest of you for the diversion and we'll now rejoin our regularly scheduled program already in progress.....

sauerball,
while unions had their uses in the past that is no longer the case. There are laws now to protect the worker. And yes before you beat the dead horse I know that unions had something to do with that. The point I ma trying to make badly I am sure is that the unions are living on past glory. You are now your own worst enemy. If you don�t believe me go back and read some of your brothers comments. For example talking about taking someone out behind the woodshed to adjust their attitude. tom

8Ball,



My apology to you... No attack was intended... i think that your views are wrong, but i have good friends who think that i am just as wrong... Boy, are they ever misguided...

the tactics that you say these strikers used were in fact criminal acts, and should have been dealt with as such... i know that such things have happened...

i also recognize that lawful, peaaceful picketers have been shot, hung, and burned out of their homes by company muscle...

neither scenario outlined above typifies labor relations today.....

it's been said here that unions are forcing manufacturors to take their work abroad.....

statistically, right to work states are losing jobs overseas on an equal basis with union states...

it's all about the dollar today and a profit can be seen as a loss if someone else profits bigger... fiscal gamesmanship is the biggest threat to our way of life... it used to be that a conservative was such both fiscally and morally, in most cases... today a fiscal conservative need not hold to morally conservative values..... john w

thanks journeyman,

WOW!!!
i think that it's safe to say that the engineers that i work around just didn't feel like discussing the matter...

i know that i certainly had no idea what i was asking for, although your answer did enlighten me in a couple of ways... i think???

Sheister, now your comming across as a totla a**. How in the f&ck do you know what gear these guys work on over here? Next time they need to go into a substation we'll send you in first, without gearing up. If you don't know what your talking about, best bet is to keep silent!!!!!! You look kinda funny with that jockstrap hanging of your dumb nose.

johnw; it's obvious that our views will remain polarized, but I can live with that. We're all after the same thing, after all, and how we get there isn't always as important as the fact that we DO get there. Truce?
We should get back to something prudent, like the
270 vs:30-06 debate... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

270 can't even hold 30-06's hat in a fight! Phftttt..............

Terry I am with you on that one who needs or wants a 270. lol. tom

What a bunch of BS. "There are laws now to protect the worker". Yeah, great laws, just ask all the employees at Enron who lost their retirement about how wonderful these laws are.

Look overseas and see how well big business treats it's workers in poor countries. The company I work for pays the laborers in Brazil $12.00 a day. No, they wouldn't exploit people today if they could.

The laws are changed at the whim of big business. Just look at Bush's latest gift to big business, the elimination of overtime for 1000's of workers. What a wonderful law.

Look at the weakened OSHA laws, done courtesy of the Bush administration. The laws are changed at the request of big business that contributes huge sums of money to Bush.

Business has a terrible track record of abuse throughout history, and to say that there are laws now that would stop these abuses is ludicrous. The laws are nothing if not stringently enforced. It's estimated that for OSHA to inspect every business in the US would take 84 years at the current staffing level. Great enforcement of existing laws.

And yet another person gopes on ignore.



BTW you union guys would be so much better off if you let johnw handle your debating.

Really breaks my heart. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You know you are healed. When the SCABS are gone! I.L.W.U Local#12

AJ,

This will be my last response to you as your bruised ego has obviously made you enter into territory you know very little about.
The fact is, all jurisdictions have levels of electrical licensing. I won't go into all the different licensing levels, just suffice it to say that they vary from qualification to install low voltage, non hazardous cable like speaker wire and telephone, up to and including licenses reflecting qualifications to install substations and utility level high voltage lines.

Most states with accredited licensing apprenticeships have levels of apprenticeship as well to suit the levels of training requirements for the licenses required to maintain qualifications for this work.
Most states with these accredited apprenticeship programs now have reciprocal licensing programs from state to state. I'm not sure if Michigan is one of them, however I know that North Dakota, Washington, Alaska, New York, and many other states have entered into reciprocal agreements with Oregon in this program.

Fact is, I have worked in substations, mills, steel factories, residential work, commercial high rises, hotels, you name it. Another fact you are probably unaware of, utility workers have licensing that specifies what work they are qualified and licensed to perform. They are not allowed to perform the duties I am licensed to perform, however my license allows me to do all their duties. In other words, it is unlimited. Since I also have a State Supervisor's license, I am also licensed to design, install, and implement unlimited electrical systems, services, and other electrical equipment as would be required by the project. This obviously comes with a level of liability that I must bear.
Now, it is understandable that you may be wanting to stand up for your maintenance workers. And I will admit that some of them are very good within their license limitations. However, it is obvious from the turn this thread and discussion has taken that many of us don't understand both sides of this discussion- both the union/non union issues, and the broader work skills discussion which underlies it.
I don't pretend to understand your particular job specifications or skill set, but you obviously have made the leap to understanding what I do though I am just now explaining (in somewhat limited terms) what my responsibilities entail. Obviously, this discussion is getting nowhere and I'll step out of it for now. In all this, as I said, you need to read between the lines. What isn't said is quite often as important to this type of discussion as what is being said.
Suffice it to say, I agree with Stick on this one- a man's skills and work ethic should be more important than what a union does for him to start with. Unscrupulous employers would be in deep [bleep] if everyone would stand up for themselves and do what is necessary to maintain a type of work ethic that is in demand at all times. However, you and I both know that isn't going to happen in our lifetimes so I guess this discussion has just been another entertaining subversion of our time. It HAS been interesting, though.- Sheister

Sheister, you opened the door by attacking the abilities of our electricians. Unless you have a crystal ball, or ESP, how can you coment on their training or certification. Have you seen their training records? As I've stated, we have a crew of electricians that are trained in highvoltage, and work on 138KV substation equipment. Their in the process of relocating a sub for new work that our foundry has secured. One, a good friend and hunting partener is also an outside contractor, doing the same type of work you've stated. I'm not pretending to know what your job entails, nor do I give a s*it. Just trying to relate the facts that our electricians are more than "light bulb changers".

hey sheister,



as i mentioned above, i worked in a steel mill for years... i don't pretend to know all that much about the job scope and the level of licensing involved in the electricians that we had.... i do know that a fair number of them held engineering degrees, and at least 2 of them, from a crew of 30 or so in that shop, had masters in their pockets.....

with all respect to you and your training and licenses, i wonder how often you get into these different tasks.... the guys who chased whistles in that furnace dept. did it all, and in some cases they did it all in a 12 hour shift.... (almost), i'm not trying to get stupid here.....

they worked on d.c. cranes, p.c. controls that outsiders often refused to touch, very high voltage equipment (we had the largest industrial transformers ever built on this planet, as well as the largest electric steel furnaces), neural network sensing and control systems, substation yard work, and they chased wires and changed light bulbs... all in what might be considered some pretty brutal conditions..... ABB and Westinghouse occasionally borrowed our electricians when they had transformers to troubleshoot or test in other places... you might have met some of them.....

one of them is a very good friend of mine and i have tried to get him on here before... he is though, currently pursuing his mech. engineering degree and working in an internship as a systems engineer. i talk to him only seldom and see him rarely..... he would be the one to state the case for his kind, although he is now a company man.....

i myself have the utmost respect for any truly skilled electrician..... i often hung my life on the line working with the ones from that place... i don't ever expect to meet any body more serious about a job than they were.....

regards,..... john w

John, he'd realy pissed to learn that our aren't electricians required to have a license to do their work. Many do take the state test, but thats their choice. GM's apprentship is governed by the federal government, not on a state level. And from what I've gathered, they are taught both state and the national code, due to MI having some stricter requirments than the national. Our electricians are also taught OSHA code 1910.330 and foward, which many electricians aren't.



Some of the problem might arise from the fact that we're doing more to prevent outside contractors comming into the plant doing new construction. Again, we've proven that our people are more cost effective than inflated contractor prices.

this is a reply in general to the union versus non union ideas. Let me give an example e.g.I am also a veteran of the U.S M.C. a group known as one of the the greatest fighting forces in the world, this is because of their TEAMWORK and Esprit de Corps.Please bear with me .while individual exploits of bravery by warriors of all times throughout the ages are to be commended and have often turned the tide of battle the wars and empires have been won by organized and well trained groups of men looking forward to the end results and rewards accorded the groups as a result of these victories.The American Indian warrior as an individual was one of the greatest fighters known , and had Tecumseh succeeded in his dream of uniting the tribes, the history of this country would have been vastly altered ,but, they did not succeed in this which was probably good for most of us but very bad for the Native Americans .Gen. Washington never would have accepted the British surrender if Von Steuben had not helped him train a organized army . On the same tack ,if unions had not fought the battles as an organized force in the early 20th. century most of the wages enjoyed by every one ,along with all the benefits we find so neccesary eg. health ins. for our children and spouse, retirement etc. would not be available to any of us, union or non-union . History has proven time and again that rulers as well as employers have not for the most part been magnanimous in they're rewards to the people unless influenced to do so by some form of organized power this is why we have union's, granges,guild's society's and whatever else you want call them.without them you are alone warrior without help or hope once surrounded you are doomed to a ignominious death or servitude without reward.shootrj2003

shootrj,

Yes, I've done all that and a bit more. Installed all the equipment on new overhead cranes 100 feet up, worked under furnace pots that had cooled for 24 hours replacing thermocouples- even with 2 guys with a fire hose cooling off the pot, it was still hot enough to melt our plastic hard hats on our head as we worked.
Changed out a few of those darned building sized transformers during emergency shut downs also. Man, that was a project! The noise when the melt pot electrodes hit the metal was unbelievable.
Keep in mind that I am not necessarily criticizing all maintenance electricians, just as I wouldn't criticize all union electricians- heck, I went through the union apprenticeship in our area and it was pretty good. I just didn't like the condescending way they treated their apprentices while making a big buck off them on the job.
I can definitely understand why those guys are going after their degrees- to get out of there and get a better job! Even though most of the steel mills are union jobs and the pay and benefits are excellent, the conditions are brutal and will age you in a hurry. Pulp and paper mills are the same way, and I've worked in many of them also.
These days I prefer smaller commercial work that I can get in, get out, get paid and move on to the next project. Better conditions, but work just as hard.
Have to agree with your last post, though. Definitely, we would not have the pay and benefits at this point as working men without the unions and I am not totally against them. My statement that I would never belong to one again is due to some rather interesting situations I got into while in the unions when I was younger. - Sheister

AJ,
Once again you are sticking your head in the dark places with your lack of knowledge and obvious ego issues.

Tuck your ego in your pocket for a bit. If you believe your apprenticeship is better than the developed apprenticeships around the country, you are making a silly mistake. First, all apprenticeship programs have to be accredited by the Bureau of Labor (federal government) before they are accepted by any state agency for implementation.
Second, if you think being taught the state codes in addition to the NEC adds anything to your program, you are still grasping at straws. The fact is, what good would any program be if the State codes weren't part of the curriculum? All states with a program, including continuing education programs for jouneymen, include the state additions to the code to suit the conditions present in their particular jurisdiction.
Addressing the fact you think all this is to avoid having to pay "overinflated contractor prices" is laughable. It has been proven many times that competitive contractors can easily save companies money over using their in-house people when doing what they specialize in- construction, installation, trouble shooting, and designing of electrical equipment. The only time this might not be true is when the internal people are working on equipment unique to their own manufacturing processes and must be maintained by factory trained personnel. This is actually quite common.

Your so-called in-house apprenticeship is simple union busting in its highest form, plain and simple. Since your buddy is an electrical contractor, ask him straight up if anything I've said is untrue.
Regardless, I'm through with this thread. It was pretty interesting but now you're just being petty and childish when confronted with facts. Have a good life and try to remember this is all just entertainment- we're not confronting world peace here- Sheister

shootrj2003, interesting point of view. Wonder if Stick would concider jarheads "sheep"?

See ya at the range <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

hey sheister,



most of the guys who had degrees in that place had them when they got there..... the ones who are pursuing degrees now are doing it because the company that we worked for no longer exists.....

about 3 years before the mill folded, we got a new maintenance turn foreman who came from a defunct steel plant in indiana..... about 2 years before the place folded we got a new CEO who had worked all over the steel industry..... the new turn foreman was upset when the new CEO came on board, and predicted the places demise..... it seems that the new CEO was a hatchet man of sorts with the nick name in the industry of "ZERO".... he supposedly got this nickname because he had been CEO over several steel companies... "zero" was the number of companies that he had run which were still in business under the same ownership..... thats how the new turn foreman came to us..... anyway;

a year and a half after the new CEO shows up we declare chapter 11 (protection from creditors).....
6 months after we went chapter 11 the CEO in a news release declared that the company was whole again..... the company was ready to exit chapter 11 and move forward with business..... this was tuesday, may 15th, 2001..... on friday, may 18th, 2001 the company declared chapter 7 bankruptcy and anounced that operations would cease as of 0700 hrs., sunday, may20th, 2001.....

but i'm not bitter about that....

my fully funded, 100% vested, government guaranteed pension? Well, the government guarantee will pay a portion of it when i turn 65...

but i'm not bitter about that.....

the CEO who did this? he organized a successful bid with a former business partner to buy up, in bankruptycy court, the more modern and profitable operations that the mill had..... he is the president of tthe new corporation.....

and that, boys, leaves me a little bit raw.....

Man, I haven't checked in for a week and this turned into a serious pizzin match.

It seems as though pumpgun and stick have very little use for the power of collective bargaining, and that's their opinion no big deal.

I just was wondering if most people that are strongly anti- union realize that it is unions who set the prevailing wage for non-union members where the two compete for work.

KT28 Proud Member- International Union of Elevator Constructors Local 28 Omaha Ne.

Na, nothing serious. Didn't even draw blood, though a little fur might be out of place <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Guess it's one of those love em or leave em issues. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, just hope it's formed from correct information.



Anybody ready for a "matchkings for hunting" arguement? .....................Dang I gotta quit doing that.

I guess I'm a scab. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

hey KT,

just spent a month in council bluffs at the little mid america site south of town..... boy was that a sweet deal... and cheap too, cost me almost nuthin' to live out there, except on saturday night when i went to pizza king for the prime rib!!! am going to go back out there and hunt coyotes with the guy that ran the tool crib..... john w

If you want to check your union's history,you will find a past president named Wayne Williams.He was my father.

Me;I'm with Stick 100%.I've been drawing a man's wages since 1956 and never needed a union.And BTW,I can testify that there were "sheep" type jarheads around in the early sixties at least.Anyplace you find human beings you will find some of the sheep variety.I don't consider them inferior folks,they are just different.
Trouble I have with unions is that it sets a top limit for my pay.I might be worth twice as much[or half as much] to a company as the next guy.One thing's for sure,as soon as I can't make money for them,I oughta be GONE because that's my job;to make them money.

Gene, I may be dumb, but I ain't stupid enough to call any marine a sheep <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



You might have heard this one, and it did come from a marine. Boats being loaded and preped for sea. Captian and his rookie XO are on the bridge watching the events. XO, with a dumb look on his face ask the captian, I know what the fuel, water, munitions, and food are for, but why are we taking on marines? Captian looks the XO square in the face and tells him, It would look mighty suspicious if we brought sheep onboard, wouldn't it?



Dang, now I just got put on ignore by all the squids and jarheads. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />



And yes, he did splain the reason marines are onboard ship. To put down the mutiny. Was he right, or just pulling my leg?

Good thing I'm not a fish, could never refuse a baited hook. Care to relate your story Bearstalker?

AJ,

I'm not in the union and really see no reason to be in the union. Well, not with my profession, anyways. I've thought about it a couple of times, though.

While understanding the need for teamwork and cohesiveness, the military and unions are two different animals. Steve

I am way late on this so if my question has been answered forgive me for asking. I don't know much about unions, never dealt with them much that I am aware of but my question is this

If there is a job open (let's be rediculous) say shoveling pig poop at six bucks a day and I am willing to take it and work under the conditions offered let's say provide my own shovel, why is it anybody's business other than his and mine.

No flames or hidden agenda intended just asking for the justification for what I think is called closed shop.

BCR

John- I myself am a frequent visitor to the Pizza King, good place. Send me a PM and let me know when you if you make it here, I know a few spots for some cold brew.-KT28

Boggy, I think that is why so many jobs go offshore these days. The union gets wage raises, then the Co raises prices to compensate, the the union calls for higher wages to pay the new higher prices for the same old thing and the cycle just repeats over and over.

Now some say all workers share in the strides the union made for its workers, and yes in the beginning they were good for the members and others. But now we all pay the price for the escalation in the economy and there is no end unless the cycle is broken.

Remember 5 cent Cokes, 25 cent per pack cigarettes and 23 cent a gallon gas? That was because you may have earned 50-75 dollars a week. Comparing the price of housing and living then and now will show a net LOSS of buying power if you don't do credit! If you do, note that the level of individual debt is so high today many will NEVER get out, their estate, if there is one, will have to make the final settelment.

OK, Nomex undies on.

The military tends to recognize talent and promote it. Unions tend to ignore talent or hold it back.

You are right I guess, it wouldn't be anyone's business if you wanted to shovel pig $hit for $6.00 a day. But...., many like that is gonna put alot of folks out of work eventually. The ones that would do that around here don't have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of! These mexicans pile in to these jobs around here and work cheap. Hell they can. It's usually 2-3 families will pile in one house, drive 1-2 vehicles if they're lucky, no other bills. The Cotton Growers Assosociation is a good example here, they pay their damn rent and utilities, so they pile several of them in one house. Don't pay them squat, but the mexicans think they're doing alright! Cotton Gin makes out like a big dog too! They've taken jobs away from the locals because who can work for those wages, well, I could if I wanted to live like they do. Anyway, just my 2 cents.

Union electricians with EE Master's degrees?

That's a joke, right?

Matthias,

You might be surprised by how many Electricians have gone back to school to get their EE degree to find a better job and ended up back working with the tools, or at least running big crews as project superintendents.
The reasons are fairly simple- the pay is better than most EE's can make in the market, and a lot of guys find out that once they get out of school, they miss the work and the camaradie on the jobsite. I find this especially on large, complicated projects that are challenging and interesting like big mill jobs or new high tech buildings and manufacturing plants.
But once you've got the degree, you've always got it- so you can always use it once you get too old to work with the tools.- Sheister

Very interesting...thanks for the info!

T, the reason many companies are heading offshore is due to restrictive health, safety, and pollution laws which they feel unfair. Add in investors unrealistic demans for high return on investments drives companies to cut cost. Our wages have never meet or exceeded the cost of living, even with quarterly raises (or deductions should the cost of living factor subside). What you see when we negotiate a new contract is the flexible COL rate, which were recieving at that point of time, being rolled into our base wage.



As far as health and safety, have you seen the media reports of all the chineese factory workers being injured as of late? Their using our old tech machines to produce products, machines that OSHA wouldn't allow to be used here.



Boggy, MI is not a right to work state. If employees of a certian company are represented by a union, all people that hire in are required to join the union. Some may gripe, but you are offered a job, it's your choice to accept or reject the job offer. You know where you stand going in. It's kind of a fallacy that I "let someone else do my talking". The only time a committie man is calles is after an issue has been discussed with management and I couldn't resolve the issue to my satisfaction. I've filed 2 grievances in the past 5 years, and won both.



To those whom take issue with equal pay no matter what your ability level, hey not everyone is capable of accomplishing the same task in a given time. It's human nature, so get over it. We don't coddle the inept, their shown the door, if they ever make it in.

To add to Shiesters comments, we have line workers with teaching certificates, RN's and various other degrees. One of our janitors in Flint took and passed his state bar exam. A toolmaker I worked with in Flint was working on his masters in Micro Biology, something he planed on persuing when he retires. You best have some college education if you want to concider employment with GM, even as an hourly employee.

kt28,

is the gold mine one of your hangouts??? i took to eating there pretty regular the last 10 days or so i was there.... the bartender had legs up to her ears!!!

The Gold Mine is a place I stop from time to time, usually on my way to another dive just down the road. But.... I may go reacquaint myself with the place after hearing from you-KT28

Thanks for the replies guys but I still haven't got an answer to the question I asked. The question is: If a job is offered and I am willing to take it why is it anybody elses business?

RRW I wouldn't live that way either or at least I wouldn't want to. But if somebody else is willing too then I don't have a call to be mad about it do I?


AJ300-- Thanks for explaining union shop to me. But again I have to ask why should a third party have any say in whether I take a job offer or not?

T-- yeah, I remember when you could eat a pretty good lunch off two bits too. Problem was getting the quarter. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Not meaning to offend anybody and don't intend to rag this to death just would like a clear justification for closed shop.



BCR

That was the point, wages go up but so do prices. I remember lster on when I was makeing a whole two bucks an hour you could get two burgers a large FF and large Coke at Mickeys for just under a dollar. Bet it costs a pot full more these days. A blue plate lunch at the counter in the diner was about seventy five cents then and all the coffee you cared for.

hey boggy,

first of all please allow me to run a couple of definitions past you.....

a) closed shop-
in a closed shop an employer has the right not to hire you unless you belong to the pertinent union.... closed shops are illegal in the united states.....

b) union shop-
in a union shop the employer hires at will with the proviso that said hiree joins the union within a given period of time..... this usually occurs at the end of a probationary period....

In the case of the union shop the employer has to contractually agree to this in order for it to take effect..... there is no law which requires a union shop in any given state..... ie; i live in illinois where union shops are the norm once a union is organized within a workplace..... still, i know of at least one local manufacturor who refused to agree to a union shop..... about half of the employees that i know who worked there belonged to the union... the rest refused to join and earned the same pay and benefits as the union employees... (this company, too, went bankrupt)

a few points that might clarify things;

1) an employer must contractually agree to become a union shop...

2) when an employer agrees to a union shop he is bound to bargain with the union first in all labor matters.....

3) if the union walks out on strike the employer has the option to hire replacements... these are non union employees who are willing to cross a picket line and provide whatever labor services that the employer requires.....

i have a nephew who crossed caterpillars picket lines a few years back to work as a replacement for striking union workers..... he's a good guy, intelligent, well educated, and a hard worker.....
he had some serious debt, and decided that he was willing to cross the picket line for the money that CAT offered.... all that he saw was the money and couldn't understand why the union wouldn't work for THAT MUCH MONEY!!!..... today with a teaching degree in his pocket, he's working as a union maintenance tech....... Not for caterpillar, of course..... when their union came back, my nephew wasn't even allowed inside the gate for his final check.....

the thing is, though, that he saw what went on in CAT's plant without the union there..... in point of fact, i believe that their production was up, from their usual levels..... even so, he cited favoritism, verbal abuse, and unkeepable promises from supervisors...[ in all fairness, i do believe that he was informed upon hire- in that he was a temp. employee, with out job rights of any kind]..... Caterpillar had their union out the door with no contract, with replacement workers on the job, AND THEY BARGAINED THE UNION BACK INSIDE THE GATE.....
i don't even know what all the issues are at CAT, but if the union offers them no benefit why are they there??? .... i believe that a union can bargain their way out the door..... i also believe that they can offer incredible labor value.....

in another instance, i'll cite the mill where i used to work... i told in an above post, how the place was bought up in bankruptcy court..... a condition of the sale, put in place by the buyers, was that the union represent the employees..... they do outsource a lot of their maintenance work, but that goes to union contractors..... i've had the opportunity, twice, to go back there as a boilermaker..... thanks anyway <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

i'm a welder, boggy, but ti seems to me that the union must bring something to the table or they'd be gone..... john w

it amazes me that there are no labor relations professionals on the forum to respond to this.... we need a recruiting program!!!

Thanks for the explanation John, I see that my definations were wrong. Union shop was what I was talking about and didn't know it.

I am not anti union or pro union. I'd agree with you that they have to have a good function for somebody or they'd be long gone.

Everybody wants to make as much money as they can under the best conditions they can get, not a thing wrong with that. Mill owner wants his and workers want theirs. Union fits somewhere in there if the workers think it will help them someway I reckon.

Just seems wrong to me somehow to say that if you have a job to offer and I want it anybody else has a say in the matter.

Thanks again for the clarification



BCR

Not exactly true. If employees want union representation in a business that has no union, they first contact the union they want to represent them. The union comes into the shop and has the employees fill out pledge cards. If the union feels enough people are interested they will contact the NLRB to hold a vote. If more than 51% of the employees vote in favor for a the union, they become the official represenitive of the employees. At this point the employer has to bargin with the union, he has no choice, other to sell his business or file bankrupcy. Some employers are arrogant enough to try and ignore the union, big mistake on their part due to being in violation of national labor laws. Can we say big fines from the NLRB!

Boggy they bargin your pay and benifits. I think you'd be hard pressed to beat their deal. Ask many GM salary employees what its like without union representation.

Al

These union guys are telling a rose colored version of the truth. When the union gets in, the contract is between the union (which is, after all a business) and the company. The workers have no rights. The screwy laws make it almost impossible to ever throw out the union. It's like trying on a shoe that you can't take off if it does not fit.

In its first contract, the union wants more than anything else the dues/checkoff, which means management agrees that all workers must be members whether they want to or not and their dues are automatically deducted from their pay and forwarded to the union goombahs. The union is often willing to give up pay for the workers in order to get this.

Favoritism etc. is no worse with or without a union. The difference is that the company usually "favors" you if you are more productive. In a union shop, you get "favored" by the union steward based on kissing his a** and politicking. The union steward, incidentally, gets paid extra and does very little work.

In the union-free shop, you can get ahead by doing the work better. In the union shop, you can't. The emphasis is on security and the determinant is seniority. So why work hard? Different people tend to be attracted to union-free companies which, not surprisingly, are growing faster.

Contrary to popular opinion, workers at union places do not get paid more than union free people--in like companies, at least not in the private sector. I grant you that the UAW people at GM get paid more than union free people at Wal-mart, but they don't get paid more than union free people at Toyota. The basic extra cost of a union operation stems from all the inefficient work rules, rewards based on seniority instead of competency, and the like. So it is that GM's market share has dropped from 50% to 26%. Thank you UAW. Our local Ford plant, incidentally, has everyone under 46 on layoff, because even the high pay that does occur is at the expense of closing down the more inefficient of their operations. The older UAW members are willing to put up with this. It's called "eating your young."

Most unions are disappearing in the private sector (though not in the civil service). A case in point is Caterpillar plant in Peoria. The union struck so the company hired permanent replacements (the poster above had a relative who was hired as a temp, not a permanent replacement). After four or five years, the union settled on Caterpillar's terms to preserve a few of its jobs and, more importantly, the union goombah's salary. Caterpillar then built a new plant--union free--in Georgia. Over the years, you will no doubt find expansions in Georgia, lay-offs in Peoria. Substitute the name GE for Caterpillar and you get a similar story. And other names, like the Bear Archery Company.

One good thing about unions is they make it very easy to lay off people. Enrons notwithstanding, most CEOs feel a real responsibility toward their workers, and try to avoid layoffs. If there's a union, to the extent that the workers support it they are basically enemies of the company, so the CEOs feel less compunction.

Mandatory union membership, against the will of the workers, is illegal in about 20 states. This is called the "Right to Work." The Right to Work states currently average higher pay and more rapid economic growth than the union-bound states. Virtually every large plant expansion you have heard about in the last 20 years has occurred in a right to work state. Honda's union-free plant in Ohio is an exception.

Interestingly, the workers at large union-free employers show little inclination to join unions or even have an NLRB election about it. This is true at high-paid firms like the transplant auto plants and low paid firms like WalMart. Mostly they think they are better off without unions. Even in the union-bound states.

The basic problem in the union point of view, at least in the North, is this: If unions are such a good deal for the workers, why do the unions have to make membership mandatory? It's sort of like the rhetoric of the old Iron Curtain: "Our country is a workers' paradise, honest, and by the way there's a fence to keep you workers from escaping."

Now that's a funny post. I'll have to tell my steward he's not supposed to do any work, and that we are all lazy because we don't have to work. Then I'll tell the gal who got canned that it's impossible to get fired from a union shop. I'm sure she'll be glad to here that.

What a good joke!

Indy and rick, now guys this is just what I didn't want to start. I know passions run high on the subject but I am honestly seeking information which I thank you both for. By way of explanation: Sanderson Farms has a big chicken processing plant in Bryan, Tx about fifty miles from me. Some of my friends and kin grow chickens for them. Some of my friends work for them in other ways. I hear them talk. The truck drivers are union, Teamsters, I guess. The line workers are non-union though they have had two elections trying to get the union in, which I don't know, and both failed. As stated passions run high on both sides and I am just trying to understand the deal. Thanks


BCR

BCR, I'm not trying to start any pissin match, just gets me how some people go spouting off a bunch of claims that are bs. I've found lazy people everywhere I've worked, union or non-union. Unions may not be perfect, but at least we get time and one half for anything over 8 hours a day.

Many a day I don't get a chance to eat lunch or drink my coffee because the shi* hit the fan and I've been too busy along with the rest of the crew. The family knows when I've had a busy day at work when I walk in the house with a full thermos of coffee.

Not trying to start any p*** match either, but I hope you realize that time and a half has nothing to do with your union. It's a federal law.

True you will find lazy people everywhere. But in a union free operation, it is a lot easier to get rid of them, and the enterprise prospers with all hands as a result.

Also, I infer from your bio that you work in a paper mill in a fairly rural part of northern Wisconsin. People there have a much higher and better work ethic than do people in general in, say, steel mills in big cities. I have spent time in every paper mill in your state. In most cases, if you came from a unionized steel or auto plant, you would not even know that the paper mill was unionized.

The unions have taken over the former to the extent that is is almost immoral. For instance, there are rings of people who sell dope and punch each other in when they don't come to work. Management finds out and starts discipline. The union automatically files a grievance. Later, when management wishes to buy a computer or something, the union "gives" them the right to buy it (instead of the union workers making it) in exchange for dropping the disciplinary proceedings. This occurs with the USW and the UAW but not, to my knowledge, with paper mills in Wisconsin. Of course, part of the problem is management too chicken to take a strike and hire replacements when this started in the 1950s.

I have only been involved in one campaign against the Teamsters and that was decades ago in a big northern city, and very short, as the pro-union malcontents switched to a different union. Your mileage in 2004 probably varies.

The best way to predict what would happen would be to find another similar chicken processing plant which the Teamsters organized a few years ago and check into what happened.

In our case, the Teamsters bribed a fork lift driver at a nearby plant to give them the names of all the workers. Then they went to the workers' homes over a weekend, informed them (falsely) that the plant had been unionized, and that they would be fired if they didn't sign a union card. On Monday they walked into the owner's office, presented him the cards, and demanded he recognize the union without any NLRB election. Very stupidly, he did that.

The first contract gave the workers just enough raise to pay the Teamster dues, which of course was mandatory for them. Later contracts got more onerous as the owner was an incompetent patsy. Later his sons took over the business and moved it away.

Then the Teamsters tried to organize our plant which was bigger. They of course tried to get cards signed in secret, but we found out about it, called a meeting of the employees, and explained why we were against unions. Only about 4 or 5 cards were ever signed, and after a brief flirtation with another union (which went away when they figured out they could not make the sale), everything settled down. The four or five malcontents left the company on their own.

An NLRB election tends to polarize the work place, irrespective of who wins, because each side declares itself during the campaign, and tempers flare. Afterwards, the union is not allowed to try for another election until a year later.

The union can ask for an NLRB election if 30% sign cards, but generally tries to get over 50%. It tries to do this in secret so management does not start campaigning against it. Incredible as it may seem, many workers do not realize that management would oppose a union--until they say so. Once the campaign becomes public, the union knows it will lose some support, which is why it tries to start over 50%.

Everything I say refers to fairly well managed industrial facilities. It is almost impossible to unionize such a facility. The union has nothing to offer such workers but elevaton of the incompetent and risk of layoffs. But chicken workers--I don't know. there may be some desperation factor.

The Teamsters have motives a little different than some other unions. They take in more money. For instance, the union, not each company, has a pension fund, and the head goombahs have used this as a slush fund to invest in various things. As a result, they are now under federal supervision, which makes stealing the pension fund harder, although every national president except the present incumbent, for the last 30 years or so, has been sent to prison. Incidentally, they provide medical care for retirees but last year raised the copay from $100 per month to something like $1200 per month. If Enron had tried that, you would have heard more about it.

my honey had 9 1/2 hours overtime last week but doesn't get paid for it cuz he's salary. How's that for a crock of BS??



mrsfisher

He does get Comp time off though. At least that is how it works here.

I don't know about how the plants you have been associated with work, but I do know that at the union shops where I have worked, we, the union members wouldn't tolerate the behavior you have described, as management would not either. One of the problems we had was when hiring new workers, they came in with the impression that they had a union job and didn't have to work. We had some not so subtle ways of making them see the errors in their ways.

The situations you describe seem to stem from problems in management. Blaming it on the union seems to be a cop out. You even said yourself that the management was chickenshi*. On many occasions I have seen management shoot themselves in the foot instead of admitting a mistake. Thank God most of the old time adversarial managers hit the road with the last round of cuts. We now have a management team that tries to promote an attitude of cooperation, and they realize that while they may steer the ship, we are the ones who make it go, and without us they are dead in the water.

Since management at our division has made change from being adversarial to one of cooperation, we have set production records, and are approaching are goal of 13% return on investment, and last year we were the only pulp mill in the US to turn a profit. Too bad they couldn't have figured this out sooner.

No sir, your totally wrong. The same mechanism that brings the union in can be used to remove it. If a majority of workers DO NOT want union representation all the have to do is contact the NLRB. The NLRB will come in and do a decertification vote. If the majority of employees vote to decertify the union, the union no longer represents the employees. It's that simple.



Again your showing your stupidity. Toyota is keeping their employees happy to prevent the union from moving into their plants. Same with other buisnesses, they form committies to settle greivences, use senority for job assignments, vacation schedeling and the likes.



Dam* your three for three. Our plant manager does everything in his power to keep employees, including the use of the "jobs bank". Most figure they (plant managers) DON'T want to loose their trained employees to another plant knowing that their skills will be needed in the future.

Union/management relationships under normal conditions are rarely hostile. Most unions go out of their way to work with management, after all it's our jobs that are affected. Do you sh*t in your own bed?

Al

I don't get comp time! Is this a new law I should know about. It would make me very happy to know about it, can some one help me out with this? There have been many 70 hour + weeks in my life with out even a thank you or time and a half pay. Of course when the dust settles and things slow down they are quick to lay me off. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> But don't worry management would never take advantage of us peeons. They are always looking out for us and taking the best care of us.

Dear AJ,

Stop and think a minute.

1. You've probably never been involved in a decertification. The reason it's almost impossible is that it's illegal for the workers to get outside help from management. They have no chance against the professional goombahs who ARE allowed to get outside help. As soon as a few start to proselitize against the union, they get "disciplined." Many union constitutions allow for fines.

2. Why should Toyota pay such "high" salaries to keep the union out? Answer: The problem with unions isn't high salaries. The problem is the lack of productivity for the reasons I've mentioned.

3. If you're so palsy walsy with GM's management, why has GM laid off 50% or so of its workers in the last 20 years?

While I don't know anybody in authority at GM, I suspect your loving union-management relationship is like a tapeworm. You can't get rid of it so you find a way to live with it. IF GM could snap its fingers and get rid of the UAW, it would be gone in five seconds. Instead they just keep building plants in Mexico and biding their time. Last year they made more money on financing mortgages than on making cars. I hope you get to retire before you get the chop.

There is no such thing as a law mandating comp time. The other poster's employer may do that voluntarily. You are classified as an exempt employee (basically a professional), apparently, and thus do not have to be paid overtime.

The definition of what jobs are exempt goes back to the 1930s. The DOL is right now trying to modernize the definitions but many in Congress are resisting this. In either case, you would probably still remain exempt.

Theoretically, professionals are more highly compensated to begin with and are responsible for working more independently, all of which (in the 1930s) were reasons not to pay them O.T. In some cases, like managers of fast food restaurants, this really isn't the case but such jobs didn't exist under the current rules.

I will admit that comp time is mostly in government jobs, but in \Florida many private firms are adopting it instead of monetary compensation. The food service industry is one of the biggies here.

You seem to be well versed in union/management issues but you omit the fact that management also uses scare tactics to deter union recruitment. I've seen people threattened with being fired for discussing union issues inside a non-union business. At my wifes place of employment management wouldn't allow the union to have a post board to place their issues to inform represented workers, until they won a court challenge with the NLRB.







Easy my friend. One word. Automation. The last 20 years have seen robotics intergrated into many material handeling processes. For example, we have machines assemble core packages that were traditionally done with human labor.



It isn't all gloom and doom for organized labor. In our area theres been a few completely new plants built by GM. The plant I work in has been awarded 80 million dollars to produce the next generation cast aluminum truck engine block. We were in competition with a foundry in Mexico and Brazil for this specific product. If the UAW was such a burden to GM, why are they keeping this work inhouse? You can believe what you want, but the bean counters at the crystal palace have no allegiance to anyone when it comes to awarding new work, the bottom line is cost.

AJ,

No management in its right mind would let a union post stuff on company property during an organizing campaign. Or campaign in any way for the union in work areas during working hours. After all, whose property is it, anyway? That's fair and it's legal.

It is illegal to threaten to fire someone for joining a union or threaten to close down a plant if the union gets in. It is legal, however, to put forth examples where unions have caused plants to close. This may be interpreted as a threat, though it's not.

Any company fighting a union organizing attempt tries to be squeaky clean legally, if they're not total morons, because the NLRB interprets the law to protect powerless workers against big mean companies (think Ford in 1935). In actuality, today's situation is usually a big powerful union against a relatively powerless little company, and in this respect, the union has an advantage.

You are absolutely right about the effect of automation and the bean counters having no loyalty to anything but the bottom line at companies like GM. But here's the point, at least for the country as a whole. When I started my career, about 32% of the work force belonged to unions. Last year it was about 9%. Total production and employment, of course, is much higher. It's the union members that are disproportionately taking the biggest hits from automation, etc., which is not a very good predictor of job security in future decades.

In this case the employees were already being represented by the union. Management steadfastly refused any union information being posted. When they were directed by the courts to allow the bulletin board, the employer picked the most out of the way obscure place to post the board. Any grevience fact finding between employees and their union represenitive was to be done off the clock, off company property. Only when management was brought into the bargining was it done on company time and property. Management created the hostile enviroment.



Al

Boggy,as far as John's post[still can't do the quote deal] about the employer having to agree to an election,did you ever hear of Bum Givens? Back in the fifties ol'Bum had an oil field servicing operation in about every West Texas town and some in East Texas.He must have had hundreds of workover rigs and a thousand employees.
One of the big unions decided to organize Bum's hired hands and got a majority to sign pledge cards and then petitioned the NLRB for an election.When ol' Bum was notified of the election[you can bet he knew about it already],he called the stud toolpusher at every yard and told them that when each rig finished the job it was on to bring 'em to the yard.Anybody that did'nt sign a card could hang around long enough to clean 'em up.
He said;"Boys,we gonna have the biggest auction sale the oil patch has ever seen.Ain't no son of a bitch gonna tell Bum how to run his business!Don't they know I got my sock full years ago?Now I got my belly full!
At least up to the mid eighties when I left it,the oil patch ain't never been targeted again,thanks to ol'Bum.
And-Big Stick,you're gonna love this-was'nt a thing the union or the government could do to stop Bum from doing what he done even though they tried.

hey gene,



i think that it was T LEE that helped me recently with the quote process, and he explained it pretty well... i'm gonna take a stab at it for you...

a) click on reply as usual and put your cursor where you want the quot to appear

b) below the reply box where your message is typed is an area marked instant ubb code... find the quote link there and click on it... this will put something that looks like this in your reply box [Quote] [Quote]

c) scroll to the bottom of the page where the post that you are quoting from appears, and highlight the words that you want to quote

d) in your browser toolbar at the top of your screen you have a tool called "Edit"... click on "Edit", and then on "copy"

e) go back to the reply box andplace your cursor between the two [quotes]

f) click again on "edit", and then click on "paste... your quote will appear as [Quote] blah, blah, blah [Quote]

g) when you submit the reply the quote will look like it's supposed to... i think <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />..... john w

Yeah, Gene, I have heard of Bum. Matter of fact some of his crews were working West Production in Madison Co. when that happened. Wonder if he's still alive?

BCR

Prob'ly;The Devil don't want him and God can't use him!

Yeah he gets off early on slow days to make up the over time. But now that they are mowing and doing the grounds all days are busy, busy, busy. And this company keeps buying more properties and still only have two maintenance guys. When he started in January they had 174 units. They now have 400 some.

That is the biggest problem with comp time, getting it when YOU want it!