Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Being on strike sucks,butthis is worse!

Really breaks my heart. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You know you are healed. When the SCABS are gone! I.L.W.U Local#12

AJ,

This will be my last response to you as your bruised ego has obviously made you enter into territory you know very little about.
The fact is, all jurisdictions have levels of electrical licensing. I won't go into all the different licensing levels, just suffice it to say that they vary from qualification to install low voltage, non hazardous cable like speaker wire and telephone, up to and including licenses reflecting qualifications to install substations and utility level high voltage lines.

Most states with accredited licensing apprenticeships have levels of apprenticeship as well to suit the levels of training requirements for the licenses required to maintain qualifications for this work.
Most states with these accredited apprenticeship programs now have reciprocal licensing programs from state to state. I'm not sure if Michigan is one of them, however I know that North Dakota, Washington, Alaska, New York, and many other states have entered into reciprocal agreements with Oregon in this program.

Fact is, I have worked in substations, mills, steel factories, residential work, commercial high rises, hotels, you name it. Another fact you are probably unaware of, utility workers have licensing that specifies what work they are qualified and licensed to perform. They are not allowed to perform the duties I am licensed to perform, however my license allows me to do all their duties. In other words, it is unlimited. Since I also have a State Supervisor's license, I am also licensed to design, install, and implement unlimited electrical systems, services, and other electrical equipment as would be required by the project. This obviously comes with a level of liability that I must bear.
Now, it is understandable that you may be wanting to stand up for your maintenance workers. And I will admit that some of them are very good within their license limitations. However, it is obvious from the turn this thread and discussion has taken that many of us don't understand both sides of this discussion- both the union/non union issues, and the broader work skills discussion which underlies it.
I don't pretend to understand your particular job specifications or skill set, but you obviously have made the leap to understanding what I do though I am just now explaining (in somewhat limited terms) what my responsibilities entail. Obviously, this discussion is getting nowhere and I'll step out of it for now. In all this, as I said, you need to read between the lines. What isn't said is quite often as important to this type of discussion as what is being said.
Suffice it to say, I agree with Stick on this one- a man's skills and work ethic should be more important than what a union does for him to start with. Unscrupulous employers would be in deep [bleep] if everyone would stand up for themselves and do what is necessary to maintain a type of work ethic that is in demand at all times. However, you and I both know that isn't going to happen in our lifetimes so I guess this discussion has just been another entertaining subversion of our time. It HAS been interesting, though.- Sheister

Sheister, you opened the door by attacking the abilities of our electricians. Unless you have a crystal ball, or ESP, how can you coment on their training or certification. Have you seen their training records? As I've stated, we have a crew of electricians that are trained in highvoltage, and work on 138KV substation equipment. Their in the process of relocating a sub for new work that our foundry has secured. One, a good friend and hunting partener is also an outside contractor, doing the same type of work you've stated. I'm not pretending to know what your job entails, nor do I give a s*it. Just trying to relate the facts that our electricians are more than "light bulb changers".

hey sheister,



as i mentioned above, i worked in a steel mill for years... i don't pretend to know all that much about the job scope and the level of licensing involved in the electricians that we had.... i do know that a fair number of them held engineering degrees, and at least 2 of them, from a crew of 30 or so in that shop, had masters in their pockets.....

with all respect to you and your training and licenses, i wonder how often you get into these different tasks.... the guys who chased whistles in that furnace dept. did it all, and in some cases they did it all in a 12 hour shift.... (almost), i'm not trying to get stupid here.....

they worked on d.c. cranes, p.c. controls that outsiders often refused to touch, very high voltage equipment (we had the largest industrial transformers ever built on this planet, as well as the largest electric steel furnaces), neural network sensing and control systems, substation yard work, and they chased wires and changed light bulbs... all in what might be considered some pretty brutal conditions..... ABB and Westinghouse occasionally borrowed our electricians when they had transformers to troubleshoot or test in other places... you might have met some of them.....

one of them is a very good friend of mine and i have tried to get him on here before... he is though, currently pursuing his mech. engineering degree and working in an internship as a systems engineer. i talk to him only seldom and see him rarely..... he would be the one to state the case for his kind, although he is now a company man.....

i myself have the utmost respect for any truly skilled electrician..... i often hung my life on the line working with the ones from that place... i don't ever expect to meet any body more serious about a job than they were.....

regards,..... john w

John, he'd realy pissed to learn that our aren't electricians required to have a license to do their work. Many do take the state test, but thats their choice. GM's apprentship is governed by the federal government, not on a state level. And from what I've gathered, they are taught both state and the national code, due to MI having some stricter requirments than the national. Our electricians are also taught OSHA code 1910.330 and foward, which many electricians aren't.



Some of the problem might arise from the fact that we're doing more to prevent outside contractors comming into the plant doing new construction. Again, we've proven that our people are more cost effective than inflated contractor prices.

this is a reply in general to the union versus non union ideas. Let me give an example e.g.I am also a veteran of the U.S M.C. a group known as one of the the greatest fighting forces in the world, this is because of their TEAMWORK and Esprit de Corps.Please bear with me .while individual exploits of bravery by warriors of all times throughout the ages are to be commended and have often turned the tide of battle the wars and empires have been won by organized and well trained groups of men looking forward to the end results and rewards accorded the groups as a result of these victories.The American Indian warrior as an individual was one of the greatest fighters known , and had Tecumseh succeeded in his dream of uniting the tribes, the history of this country would have been vastly altered ,but, they did not succeed in this which was probably good for most of us but very bad for the Native Americans .Gen. Washington never would have accepted the British surrender if Von Steuben had not helped him train a organized army . On the same tack ,if unions had not fought the battles as an organized force in the early 20th. century most of the wages enjoyed by every one ,along with all the benefits we find so neccesary eg. health ins. for our children and spouse, retirement etc. would not be available to any of us, union or non-union . History has proven time and again that rulers as well as employers have not for the most part been magnanimous in they're rewards to the people unless influenced to do so by some form of organized power this is why we have union's, granges,guild's society's and whatever else you want call them.without them you are alone warrior without help or hope once surrounded you are doomed to a ignominious death or servitude without reward.shootrj2003

shootrj,

Yes, I've done all that and a bit more. Installed all the equipment on new overhead cranes 100 feet up, worked under furnace pots that had cooled for 24 hours replacing thermocouples- even with 2 guys with a fire hose cooling off the pot, it was still hot enough to melt our plastic hard hats on our head as we worked.
Changed out a few of those darned building sized transformers during emergency shut downs also. Man, that was a project! The noise when the melt pot electrodes hit the metal was unbelievable.
Keep in mind that I am not necessarily criticizing all maintenance electricians, just as I wouldn't criticize all union electricians- heck, I went through the union apprenticeship in our area and it was pretty good. I just didn't like the condescending way they treated their apprentices while making a big buck off them on the job.
I can definitely understand why those guys are going after their degrees- to get out of there and get a better job! Even though most of the steel mills are union jobs and the pay and benefits are excellent, the conditions are brutal and will age you in a hurry. Pulp and paper mills are the same way, and I've worked in many of them also.
These days I prefer smaller commercial work that I can get in, get out, get paid and move on to the next project. Better conditions, but work just as hard.
Have to agree with your last post, though. Definitely, we would not have the pay and benefits at this point as working men without the unions and I am not totally against them. My statement that I would never belong to one again is due to some rather interesting situations I got into while in the unions when I was younger. - Sheister

AJ,
Once again you are sticking your head in the dark places with your lack of knowledge and obvious ego issues.

Tuck your ego in your pocket for a bit. If you believe your apprenticeship is better than the developed apprenticeships around the country, you are making a silly mistake. First, all apprenticeship programs have to be accredited by the Bureau of Labor (federal government) before they are accepted by any state agency for implementation.
Second, if you think being taught the state codes in addition to the NEC adds anything to your program, you are still grasping at straws. The fact is, what good would any program be if the State codes weren't part of the curriculum? All states with a program, including continuing education programs for jouneymen, include the state additions to the code to suit the conditions present in their particular jurisdiction.
Addressing the fact you think all this is to avoid having to pay "overinflated contractor prices" is laughable. It has been proven many times that competitive contractors can easily save companies money over using their in-house people when doing what they specialize in- construction, installation, trouble shooting, and designing of electrical equipment. The only time this might not be true is when the internal people are working on equipment unique to their own manufacturing processes and must be maintained by factory trained personnel. This is actually quite common.

Your so-called in-house apprenticeship is simple union busting in its highest form, plain and simple. Since your buddy is an electrical contractor, ask him straight up if anything I've said is untrue.
Regardless, I'm through with this thread. It was pretty interesting but now you're just being petty and childish when confronted with facts. Have a good life and try to remember this is all just entertainment- we're not confronting world peace here- Sheister

shootrj2003, interesting point of view. Wonder if Stick would concider jarheads "sheep"?

See ya at the range <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

hey sheister,



most of the guys who had degrees in that place had them when they got there..... the ones who are pursuing degrees now are doing it because the company that we worked for no longer exists.....

about 3 years before the mill folded, we got a new maintenance turn foreman who came from a defunct steel plant in indiana..... about 2 years before the place folded we got a new CEO who had worked all over the steel industry..... the new turn foreman was upset when the new CEO came on board, and predicted the places demise..... it seems that the new CEO was a hatchet man of sorts with the nick name in the industry of "ZERO".... he supposedly got this nickname because he had been CEO over several steel companies... "zero" was the number of companies that he had run which were still in business under the same ownership..... thats how the new turn foreman came to us..... anyway;

a year and a half after the new CEO shows up we declare chapter 11 (protection from creditors).....
6 months after we went chapter 11 the CEO in a news release declared that the company was whole again..... the company was ready to exit chapter 11 and move forward with business..... this was tuesday, may 15th, 2001..... on friday, may 18th, 2001 the company declared chapter 7 bankruptcy and anounced that operations would cease as of 0700 hrs., sunday, may20th, 2001.....

but i'm not bitter about that....

my fully funded, 100% vested, government guaranteed pension? Well, the government guarantee will pay a portion of it when i turn 65...

but i'm not bitter about that.....

the CEO who did this? he organized a successful bid with a former business partner to buy up, in bankruptycy court, the more modern and profitable operations that the mill had..... he is the president of tthe new corporation.....

and that, boys, leaves me a little bit raw.....

Man, I haven't checked in for a week and this turned into a serious pizzin match.

It seems as though pumpgun and stick have very little use for the power of collective bargaining, and that's their opinion no big deal.

I just was wondering if most people that are strongly anti- union realize that it is unions who set the prevailing wage for non-union members where the two compete for work.

KT28 Proud Member- International Union of Elevator Constructors Local 28 Omaha Ne.

Na, nothing serious. Didn't even draw blood, though a little fur might be out of place <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Guess it's one of those love em or leave em issues. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, just hope it's formed from correct information.



Anybody ready for a "matchkings for hunting" arguement? .....................Dang I gotta quit doing that.

I guess I'm a scab. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

hey KT,

just spent a month in council bluffs at the little mid america site south of town..... boy was that a sweet deal... and cheap too, cost me almost nuthin' to live out there, except on saturday night when i went to pizza king for the prime rib!!! am going to go back out there and hunt coyotes with the guy that ran the tool crib..... john w

If you want to check your union's history,you will find a past president named Wayne Williams.He was my father.

Me;I'm with Stick 100%.I've been drawing a man's wages since 1956 and never needed a union.And BTW,I can testify that there were "sheep" type jarheads around in the early sixties at least.Anyplace you find human beings you will find some of the sheep variety.I don't consider them inferior folks,they are just different.
Trouble I have with unions is that it sets a top limit for my pay.I might be worth twice as much[or half as much] to a company as the next guy.One thing's for sure,as soon as I can't make money for them,I oughta be GONE because that's my job;to make them money.

Gene, I may be dumb, but I ain't stupid enough to call any marine a sheep <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



You might have heard this one, and it did come from a marine. Boats being loaded and preped for sea. Captian and his rookie XO are on the bridge watching the events. XO, with a dumb look on his face ask the captian, I know what the fuel, water, munitions, and food are for, but why are we taking on marines? Captian looks the XO square in the face and tells him, It would look mighty suspicious if we brought sheep onboard, wouldn't it?



Dang, now I just got put on ignore by all the squids and jarheads. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />



And yes, he did splain the reason marines are onboard ship. To put down the mutiny. Was he right, or just pulling my leg?

Good thing I'm not a fish, could never refuse a baited hook. Care to relate your story Bearstalker?

AJ,

I'm not in the union and really see no reason to be in the union. Well, not with my profession, anyways. I've thought about it a couple of times, though.