Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Being on strike sucks,butthis is worse!

While understanding the need for teamwork and cohesiveness, the military and unions are two different animals. Steve

I am way late on this so if my question has been answered forgive me for asking. I don't know much about unions, never dealt with them much that I am aware of but my question is this

If there is a job open (let's be rediculous) say shoveling pig poop at six bucks a day and I am willing to take it and work under the conditions offered let's say provide my own shovel, why is it anybody's business other than his and mine.

No flames or hidden agenda intended just asking for the justification for what I think is called closed shop.

BCR

John- I myself am a frequent visitor to the Pizza King, good place. Send me a PM and let me know when you if you make it here, I know a few spots for some cold brew.-KT28

Boggy, I think that is why so many jobs go offshore these days. The union gets wage raises, then the Co raises prices to compensate, the the union calls for higher wages to pay the new higher prices for the same old thing and the cycle just repeats over and over.

Now some say all workers share in the strides the union made for its workers, and yes in the beginning they were good for the members and others. But now we all pay the price for the escalation in the economy and there is no end unless the cycle is broken.

Remember 5 cent Cokes, 25 cent per pack cigarettes and 23 cent a gallon gas? That was because you may have earned 50-75 dollars a week. Comparing the price of housing and living then and now will show a net LOSS of buying power if you don't do credit! If you do, note that the level of individual debt is so high today many will NEVER get out, their estate, if there is one, will have to make the final settelment.

OK, Nomex undies on.

The military tends to recognize talent and promote it. Unions tend to ignore talent or hold it back.

You are right I guess, it wouldn't be anyone's business if you wanted to shovel pig $hit for $6.00 a day. But...., many like that is gonna put alot of folks out of work eventually. The ones that would do that around here don't have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of! These mexicans pile in to these jobs around here and work cheap. Hell they can. It's usually 2-3 families will pile in one house, drive 1-2 vehicles if they're lucky, no other bills. The Cotton Growers Assosociation is a good example here, they pay their damn rent and utilities, so they pile several of them in one house. Don't pay them squat, but the mexicans think they're doing alright! Cotton Gin makes out like a big dog too! They've taken jobs away from the locals because who can work for those wages, well, I could if I wanted to live like they do. Anyway, just my 2 cents.

Union electricians with EE Master's degrees?

That's a joke, right?

Matthias,

You might be surprised by how many Electricians have gone back to school to get their EE degree to find a better job and ended up back working with the tools, or at least running big crews as project superintendents.
The reasons are fairly simple- the pay is better than most EE's can make in the market, and a lot of guys find out that once they get out of school, they miss the work and the camaradie on the jobsite. I find this especially on large, complicated projects that are challenging and interesting like big mill jobs or new high tech buildings and manufacturing plants.
But once you've got the degree, you've always got it- so you can always use it once you get too old to work with the tools.- Sheister

Very interesting...thanks for the info!

T, the reason many companies are heading offshore is due to restrictive health, safety, and pollution laws which they feel unfair. Add in investors unrealistic demans for high return on investments drives companies to cut cost. Our wages have never meet or exceeded the cost of living, even with quarterly raises (or deductions should the cost of living factor subside). What you see when we negotiate a new contract is the flexible COL rate, which were recieving at that point of time, being rolled into our base wage.



As far as health and safety, have you seen the media reports of all the chineese factory workers being injured as of late? Their using our old tech machines to produce products, machines that OSHA wouldn't allow to be used here.



Boggy, MI is not a right to work state. If employees of a certian company are represented by a union, all people that hire in are required to join the union. Some may gripe, but you are offered a job, it's your choice to accept or reject the job offer. You know where you stand going in. It's kind of a fallacy that I "let someone else do my talking". The only time a committie man is calles is after an issue has been discussed with management and I couldn't resolve the issue to my satisfaction. I've filed 2 grievances in the past 5 years, and won both.



To those whom take issue with equal pay no matter what your ability level, hey not everyone is capable of accomplishing the same task in a given time. It's human nature, so get over it. We don't coddle the inept, their shown the door, if they ever make it in.

To add to Shiesters comments, we have line workers with teaching certificates, RN's and various other degrees. One of our janitors in Flint took and passed his state bar exam. A toolmaker I worked with in Flint was working on his masters in Micro Biology, something he planed on persuing when he retires. You best have some college education if you want to concider employment with GM, even as an hourly employee.

kt28,

is the gold mine one of your hangouts??? i took to eating there pretty regular the last 10 days or so i was there.... the bartender had legs up to her ears!!!

The Gold Mine is a place I stop from time to time, usually on my way to another dive just down the road. But.... I may go reacquaint myself with the place after hearing from you-KT28

Thanks for the replies guys but I still haven't got an answer to the question I asked. The question is: If a job is offered and I am willing to take it why is it anybody elses business?

RRW I wouldn't live that way either or at least I wouldn't want to. But if somebody else is willing too then I don't have a call to be mad about it do I?


AJ300-- Thanks for explaining union shop to me. But again I have to ask why should a third party have any say in whether I take a job offer or not?

T-- yeah, I remember when you could eat a pretty good lunch off two bits too. Problem was getting the quarter. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Not meaning to offend anybody and don't intend to rag this to death just would like a clear justification for closed shop.



BCR

That was the point, wages go up but so do prices. I remember lster on when I was makeing a whole two bucks an hour you could get two burgers a large FF and large Coke at Mickeys for just under a dollar. Bet it costs a pot full more these days. A blue plate lunch at the counter in the diner was about seventy five cents then and all the coffee you cared for.

hey boggy,

first of all please allow me to run a couple of definitions past you.....

a) closed shop-
in a closed shop an employer has the right not to hire you unless you belong to the pertinent union.... closed shops are illegal in the united states.....

b) union shop-
in a union shop the employer hires at will with the proviso that said hiree joins the union within a given period of time..... this usually occurs at the end of a probationary period....

In the case of the union shop the employer has to contractually agree to this in order for it to take effect..... there is no law which requires a union shop in any given state..... ie; i live in illinois where union shops are the norm once a union is organized within a workplace..... still, i know of at least one local manufacturor who refused to agree to a union shop..... about half of the employees that i know who worked there belonged to the union... the rest refused to join and earned the same pay and benefits as the union employees... (this company, too, went bankrupt)

a few points that might clarify things;

1) an employer must contractually agree to become a union shop...

2) when an employer agrees to a union shop he is bound to bargain with the union first in all labor matters.....

3) if the union walks out on strike the employer has the option to hire replacements... these are non union employees who are willing to cross a picket line and provide whatever labor services that the employer requires.....

i have a nephew who crossed caterpillars picket lines a few years back to work as a replacement for striking union workers..... he's a good guy, intelligent, well educated, and a hard worker.....
he had some serious debt, and decided that he was willing to cross the picket line for the money that CAT offered.... all that he saw was the money and couldn't understand why the union wouldn't work for THAT MUCH MONEY!!!..... today with a teaching degree in his pocket, he's working as a union maintenance tech....... Not for caterpillar, of course..... when their union came back, my nephew wasn't even allowed inside the gate for his final check.....

the thing is, though, that he saw what went on in CAT's plant without the union there..... in point of fact, i believe that their production was up, from their usual levels..... even so, he cited favoritism, verbal abuse, and unkeepable promises from supervisors...[ in all fairness, i do believe that he was informed upon hire- in that he was a temp. employee, with out job rights of any kind]..... Caterpillar had their union out the door with no contract, with replacement workers on the job, AND THEY BARGAINED THE UNION BACK INSIDE THE GATE.....
i don't even know what all the issues are at CAT, but if the union offers them no benefit why are they there??? .... i believe that a union can bargain their way out the door..... i also believe that they can offer incredible labor value.....

in another instance, i'll cite the mill where i used to work... i told in an above post, how the place was bought up in bankruptcy court..... a condition of the sale, put in place by the buyers, was that the union represent the employees..... they do outsource a lot of their maintenance work, but that goes to union contractors..... i've had the opportunity, twice, to go back there as a boilermaker..... thanks anyway <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

i'm a welder, boggy, but ti seems to me that the union must bring something to the table or they'd be gone..... john w

it amazes me that there are no labor relations professionals on the forum to respond to this.... we need a recruiting program!!!

Thanks for the explanation John, I see that my definations were wrong. Union shop was what I was talking about and didn't know it.

I am not anti union or pro union. I'd agree with you that they have to have a good function for somebody or they'd be long gone.

Everybody wants to make as much money as they can under the best conditions they can get, not a thing wrong with that. Mill owner wants his and workers want theirs. Union fits somewhere in there if the workers think it will help them someway I reckon.

Just seems wrong to me somehow to say that if you have a job to offer and I want it anybody else has a say in the matter.

Thanks again for the clarification



BCR

Not exactly true. If employees want union representation in a business that has no union, they first contact the union they want to represent them. The union comes into the shop and has the employees fill out pledge cards. If the union feels enough people are interested they will contact the NLRB to hold a vote. If more than 51% of the employees vote in favor for a the union, they become the official represenitive of the employees. At this point the employer has to bargin with the union, he has no choice, other to sell his business or file bankrupcy. Some employers are arrogant enough to try and ignore the union, big mistake on their part due to being in violation of national labor laws. Can we say big fines from the NLRB!

Boggy they bargin your pay and benifits. I think you'd be hard pressed to beat their deal. Ask many GM salary employees what its like without union representation.

Al

These union guys are telling a rose colored version of the truth. When the union gets in, the contract is between the union (which is, after all a business) and the company. The workers have no rights. The screwy laws make it almost impossible to ever throw out the union. It's like trying on a shoe that you can't take off if it does not fit.

In its first contract, the union wants more than anything else the dues/checkoff, which means management agrees that all workers must be members whether they want to or not and their dues are automatically deducted from their pay and forwarded to the union goombahs. The union is often willing to give up pay for the workers in order to get this.

Favoritism etc. is no worse with or without a union. The difference is that the company usually "favors" you if you are more productive. In a union shop, you get "favored" by the union steward based on kissing his a** and politicking. The union steward, incidentally, gets paid extra and does very little work.

In the union-free shop, you can get ahead by doing the work better. In the union shop, you can't. The emphasis is on security and the determinant is seniority. So why work hard? Different people tend to be attracted to union-free companies which, not surprisingly, are growing faster.

Contrary to popular opinion, workers at union places do not get paid more than union free people--in like companies, at least not in the private sector. I grant you that the UAW people at GM get paid more than union free people at Wal-mart, but they don't get paid more than union free people at Toyota. The basic extra cost of a union operation stems from all the inefficient work rules, rewards based on seniority instead of competency, and the like. So it is that GM's market share has dropped from 50% to 26%. Thank you UAW. Our local Ford plant, incidentally, has everyone under 46 on layoff, because even the high pay that does occur is at the expense of closing down the more inefficient of their operations. The older UAW members are willing to put up with this. It's called "eating your young."

Most unions are disappearing in the private sector (though not in the civil service). A case in point is Caterpillar plant in Peoria. The union struck so the company hired permanent replacements (the poster above had a relative who was hired as a temp, not a permanent replacement). After four or five years, the union settled on Caterpillar's terms to preserve a few of its jobs and, more importantly, the union goombah's salary. Caterpillar then built a new plant--union free--in Georgia. Over the years, you will no doubt find expansions in Georgia, lay-offs in Peoria. Substitute the name GE for Caterpillar and you get a similar story. And other names, like the Bear Archery Company.

One good thing about unions is they make it very easy to lay off people. Enrons notwithstanding, most CEOs feel a real responsibility toward their workers, and try to avoid layoffs. If there's a union, to the extent that the workers support it they are basically enemies of the company, so the CEOs feel less compunction.

Mandatory union membership, against the will of the workers, is illegal in about 20 states. This is called the "Right to Work." The Right to Work states currently average higher pay and more rapid economic growth than the union-bound states. Virtually every large plant expansion you have heard about in the last 20 years has occurred in a right to work state. Honda's union-free plant in Ohio is an exception.

Interestingly, the workers at large union-free employers show little inclination to join unions or even have an NLRB election about it. This is true at high-paid firms like the transplant auto plants and low paid firms like WalMart. Mostly they think they are better off without unions. Even in the union-bound states.

The basic problem in the union point of view, at least in the North, is this: If unions are such a good deal for the workers, why do the unions have to make membership mandatory? It's sort of like the rhetoric of the old Iron Curtain: "Our country is a workers' paradise, honest, and by the way there's a fence to keep you workers from escaping."

Now that's a funny post. I'll have to tell my steward he's not supposed to do any work, and that we are all lazy because we don't have to work. Then I'll tell the gal who got canned that it's impossible to get fired from a union shop. I'm sure she'll be glad to here that.

What a good joke!