That's pretty chickenshitt... A good football coach would never pull that kind of stunt. If I was a parent on that team that scored,I'd demand he step down immediatly... Chickenshitt is putting it mildly...

That's awesome. I watched it twice.

It was beautiful, not chickenschitt...:)

I don't know what your experience is with playing sports but it's my opinion that that was as bad of an example as you can get for sportsmanship... The coach should be fired for even teaching that play,much less running it...

It was a trick play, sorry it offended you.

Have you played sports at any level?

I'm not as vociferous in my disdain for that trick play as Brother Bart but I didn't care for it. It wasn't that great of a play and certainly showed no talent or athleticism. Not something I would teach the kids and YES I coach football.

That's just it - you want to be good enough where that's not needed.

LMAO!

Maybe Dallas could use that coach.

Yup...or lose with your head held high.

What's wrong with it?

It's within the rules of the game, which obviously were not adequately taught by the coach of the opposing team. Put the onus on him!

Bet they know now - and won't ever forget -- that when the football comes off the ground, it is in play, and remains so until a whistle blows. And "trick plays" by an opponent are within the realm of possibility and need to be considered.

Trick me once - shame on you - trick me twice, shame on me.

I'd rather run that play than get caught with a helmet full of stupid watching it happen. How is it different than the Statue of liberty play?

It was pretty funny.

The video didn't show the referee signal TD.

las----I know but for me at least, it seems a little slimy. You are correct in that it's within the rules but young kids are more retiscent to tackle. I think they don't want to hurt the other guy and he played it like the ball was whistled dead.

In any case I doubt that team will run that play again....if nothing else but for the poor kid tasked with carrying the ball the next time. Face meet turf....

Man oh man, that was ballsy as hell, AND it worked!

Coaches are teachers... They have a responsibility to teach not only the game but good sportsmanship and that comes with winning and losing. Trick plays have no place in youth sports. There's too many things that these kids need to learn that are essential to being successful in life....

Wasn't there a baseball game years ago where the pitcher threw a couple of pitch outs and then screamed one down the gut for the 3rd strike?

while not as jazzed over it as Bart is, I don't think it's appropriate at that age level. if you want to try it in college, more power to you, but your center and qb are likely to get creamed and you'll have a turnover.


coached one of my kid's by default this summer, team mom trying to coach just wasn't gettin it done, a good lady, just not suited to coach middle school kids.

the boys got aggravated with me a few times if we played a team that was short handed, I'd pull enough of my guys off to make it even. Told them, if we win, we'll hold our heads up with pride not cause we outnumbered them but because we outcompeted them.


did it one time and the opposing coach had a kid show up late so he put him in, musta been 5 minutes before one of the parents let me know what had happened that we were playing short handed.

lol, I'd like to think it was just oversight on the other coach as we were beating them pretty handily.


there has to be a time in life to teach sportsmanship, I figure up to and thru high school is reserved for that, win at any cost can be delayed for college and thereafter.

I'm with Bart, the coach would get no love for that kind of deal AT that age.

You could only get away with that playing the Cowboys.

that game was played here, a district championship game. the team is from odem tx they played at buccaneer stadium here in corpus.they were losing and ran that play in the last few minutes of the game to win there district title

Even the Ref was fooled....say what you want it was funny as hell. Whether or not it was sportsman like I guess is individual. But Bart, dont bring your lame game question to me as to how much sports I have played..Go argue with a rock.

Pretty sure that team could pull it off against the cowboys.

The only thing I remember that remotely resembles this was a play my son's PeeWee team ran. It was just a simple fake handoff to the half back. All the blocking went to the right, along with the halfback and the fullback leading the way. The QB did a great fake and the entire defense bit on the halfback and went right. The QB went around the left end completely untouched for a 65 yard TD. He faked them out so bad, he was 20 yards down the field before anyone even notice he was gone.

As for the play shown here, I'm not quite as upset about it as Bart, but the coaches job is to teach these kids the fundamentals. There was nothing fundamental about that play. I wouldn't have ran it.

As for the idiot who went after Bart's family, that was crude and totally tasteless, and you'd best be prepared to hear from Rick, as I can't imagine he'll tolerate that kind of classless behavior.

Well, we teach our defensive linemen that when the center moves the ball after he initially grabs it everything is fair game.

I don't have a problem with trick plays. If you teach fundamental football and your players know the rules it's hard for someone to run a trick play on you. Our varsity kids ran the "Belly bum" years ago. Worked like a charm the first two times. Got a couple of touchdowns. Didn't work so good after that.

Alan

Oh yeah, if someone wants to make crude comments about someone else's wife or family. Do it by PM so you can arrange a meeting to solve and resolve the problem. Be sure and post pictures afterwards.

+1 That aint football.

Athletics Competition ain't all about muscle sometimes it's about brains.

And that defense is feeling pretty stupid after that.

Sometimes you have to be stronger, sometimes faster, and sometimes smarter (that means thinking outside the box, being an outlier as it may).

There isn't anyone who is really successful that does things like all their competitors. If they did that, they'd be also-rans too.

You gotta be an original cat if you want to win at anything.

yeah and the slam at Bart's family was even less "cricket"


I'm sure the guy was just trying to be funny and didn't realize the past history of this place.


we'll see the measure of the hombre if he mans up and apologizes for it or not

There's what's legal, and I guess that was, and what's acceptable among most coaches...that wouldn't fall in to that category.

Football is football. If you have to resort to that to win, well you might find a few inventive ways to score some points, but you won't really be playing within the spirit of the game, and, you won't be teaching the kids the game of football, or the good life lessons that come with it. If that's the kind of think you think is "cool" or "original", then that's your opinion. I've been coaching middle school and youth ball a few years now...that kind of stuff is frowned upon in most coaching circles.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. In 6 years the losers will be complaining that the winners "tricked" their girlfriends too.

Congratulations turd, you made my ignore list in less than 200 posts. I hope someone does smack out a couple of your teeth, you need it and I am sure it would improve your looks. I am with Brother Bart in hoping you are now banned from the sight for that comment unless you man up and apologize reeally soon. Will withold the ignore for a bit, hoping you grow some manhood and apologize without a lame disclaimer. Lets see it wuss.

Jerry Jones will be interviewing that coach!!! 163bc

OK, I am sorry I was way out of line with my comment about Barts wife.

I have a few teeth missing already from fights, no need for my internet teeth to be knocked out. I have played sports all of my life, and for someone to ask me at what level just pissed me off big time.

Ban me if you like, but I would not suggest coming and knocking whats left of my WV teeth out quite yet.

You already punched your ticket...

Well then, I guess you are a happy Man tonight.

Why sould I be happy about you insulting me?

That Is funny and I watched it twice
THAT is one way of teaching the rules of the game!

Well... You are the chickenshitt coward I said you were...

OK Bart. I said Im sorry about the wife comment, I got pissed and ran my big mouth.

You post a PM then beg.... Keep begging....

It was not me or my wife, but I think the apology was sincere and well said. Lets move on, the play was pretty interesting. Fun to watch for sure. Thanks for posting it. Not sure if I have a strong opinion about the play outside of that. Can see both sides of that argument.

Bart-I remember you saying you played pro ball-where did you play? Boy, I bet you've got some great stories!

Almost every play in football is designed to deceive the defense. Should we fire the coach for running the option play, play action passes, or fake punts. Onside kicks should be illegal as well.

Padres but I really made it racing motocross and supercross... Going fast paid way better...

Beg? I am not begging. If you go back and read this thread, I posted a funny football play an you called my athletic experience into question, right? Lets keep it all in perspective, you want to fight me on the internet and I am all done. Just let it go .

No... But that was a very bad decision by a coach that is supposed to be teaching kids how to play fooball... No excuse...

Go away...

The problem I have with that play is the reaction I know parents would have had if the defense had someone just level (and hurt) the QB while he stood there like an idiot and started walking.

It's garbage football, but it is also a pretty big gamble that some kid is NOT going to get his head removed.

What ever you consider the play you have to admit that it was affictive and just to funny to only watch once

Interesting thread. Count me amongst the "I don't get the outrage". I fully admit didn't play anything organized beyond high school (and rarely sleep at a Holiday Inn Express) but if I was playing football in middle school like those kids (I did) and the opposing pulled that play on us and it worked like it did in the video, Coach Breaux (RIP) would have had us running until we puked at the next practice. I can 100% guarantee you the "live ball" fundamental would have been driven into our brains deeper than survival instincts. I also don't think our parents would have been mad at the opposing team for outsmarting us.

I coached high school football for 30 years. That IS how the game is played. I've seen that play and dozens of others ran over the years. It is within the rules and is fair game.

It was a great play. A legal one at that. Get over it.

What was the play when the entire offesive line just fell down before the snap? I remember that being run, but dont know where or who did it? ???

This a great play...

I feel the same way. Life is full of disappointments, and you can get quite a few participating in sports. Paying attention is key, and the defense got caught with their pants around their ankles.
There's a lot of plays over the century+ of football that have been forgotten, or rarely seen. An Oklahoma loss to a 'hook and ladder' comes to mind........

We've all seen well orchestrated plays between college or pro teams that caught the opposing team off guard and resulted in a game-winning score or other big gain. These involve adult players and adult coaches who are all typically well-versed in the rules and strategy of the game.

This particular play seems to involve an "adult" coach who "out-smarted" a bunch of 12 and 13 year olds. Yeah, great play...

I'd rather teach my kids that gains are best acheived through hard work and skill rather than trickery and deceit.

Chris

Hey Bart you ever race at RedBud?

+1

Yepper, Middle School kids ain't grownups. At that age they are playing with adult/parental oversight and a great deal of trust is involved. If the QB grabbed the ball and started walking through their line, the assumption would be that he was acting on the directions of some adult. Obviously, that is how the kids reacted.

This weren't just ANY football game but the deciding play of the district championship. All of them kids just got a sour lesson on trust and human nature.

Birdwatcher

I have played and coached football and think that that play, along with all other deceptive plays, can teach some very valuable lessons. Trick plays show, among other things, that tricks may work at times but rarely work very often, that you need to know the rules when you play a game, that you need to be very aware of what is happening on the field, and that you had better be able to run real fast when the jig is up.

We had a few trick plays in our playbook that we rarely used because we were good enough to stomp our opponents without them. A tackle eligible pass play, a play in which the center (me) carried the ball, a double reverse with a fullback passing, and a fake punt were available if we needed to throw the other team a little off balance.

You don't have very much if all you have is tricks.

edit: I think these kids are a little young for this type of trick play.

when i saw the highlights on the news here tonight you can hear the coach yell the ball needs to moved 5 yards. the Qback then got the ball and started counting off the yards before he took off running. the defense thought he was just doing what the coach ask him to do

As I said earlier almost every offensive play has an element of deception designed into the play. Every good coach has several trick plays in the playbook. Even if you never use them they are great for breaking the blah's of practice sessions.

Every kid on that field, on both sides of the ball, learned a valuable life lesson.

Many trick plays are in reality illegal and are designed to trick officials as well as the opposing team. Such as the center sneak, where the center pretends to snap the ball to the quarterback. The QB has to do a good job of acting like he has just fumbled the snap while the center dives into the endzone from 1-2 yards out and pretends he has just recovered a fumble in the endzone. It is illegal, but done a lot and no one knows the better.

I could agree about being mad at a coach for teaching illegal plays, but not this one.

Yep! A hook and ladder, a statue of liberty...trick plays, but all withing the confines of the game...not a simulated dead ball situation. Subtle differences lost on those that think a trick play is a trick play, and that this is no different from running a double reverse. Can't explain it to those that think that way, and you said it best. These are kids who are just learning the game...this didn't involve any football, or any slick coaching. It involved a coach playing a trick on young kids, not outsmarting the other coach. Again, to some, the difference is lost.

This is the type play that causes a new rule to be written to stop it. There's all kinds of rules to prevent "simulating" things for trickery.

When a team runs a double reverse, or a statute of liberty, or whatever, the play has started, and you have to defend the entire field until the whistle...this play is designed to trick the other team in to not playing football.

Yup, glad I'm into Irish dance competition. Don't have these problems.

Life is full of "trick plays" and I am glad I was exposed to them young in life. My kids were always taught that "life is not fair". Yea, it sucks but so does losing.

Bet the defense can read "sign" better now.

WTF is "loosing"? Dude... Is that what happened to your teeth before they fell out?

Yea, thats what happened tough guy. I dont spell real well either, but I will give you my address

"Dude"

Playaz turn'n Tricks on da' feild makes'em nutt'n but a bunch a TURF HO's. Gunna gets em Pimp slapped on da naxt play fo doing what dey did.......

As I said, some won't get it? And it's just a pee wee game. Still, that coach that pulled the trick...probably a great hit with all his kids, and a real "looser" to everyone else. But, as long as he won right? That's the whole object when you're working with kids...teach them to win at all costs.

If you see a Pee Wee you are looking down. I see a Jr. high team that just got scored on. Maybe we should quit keeping score for you and your Pee Wee's.

I don't care what anyone says, that was a GREAT call by the team that ran the "trick play" ... and here's why:

Any play that is legal and within the rules of the game is acceptable and appropriate.

If you're not using everything within the rules of the game to your advantage, you're leaving something on the table. Sometimes the other team might be able to out-muscle you no matter how hard you try ... but that doesn't mean you're "chicken schitt" for using your brains to beat them ...

Now, at that level of football, I can see how some might think it would be inappropriate to run such a play ... but that begs the question of where you draw the line. Is a fake field goal too 'tricky'? What about the kind of play where a team kicks off to another, and the guy that catches the ball "meets up" with the other back and they "huddle" for a moment and then split up, making the kicking team have to figure out who has the ball?

As for the specific play in this thread, the defense that just sat there and watched the QB walk thru them with the ball is either VERY poorly coached, brain-dead, or both ... IMHO it's the coach of the other team that is most at fault for not making sure his players know that once the offense is 'set', and the ball is moved off the ground that it's a live ball, and you better be doing something to stop the guy with the ball ...

Jim ... "poor sportsmanship" is when you hit someone late out of bounds on purpose because you're pissed, losing, or trying to hurt a star player to knock them out of the game so that you have a better chance of winning. Poor sportsmanship is not greeting the other team after the game to say "good game" or whatever they say these days ... Poor sportsmanship is doing something outside of the rules when you know it's wrong, just to gain some kind of advantage you wouldn't otherwise have ...

This "trick play" is not poor sportsmanship in ANY way - not by the coach that called the play, and not by his players for running it. What they did was completely legal, and the only people that should be upset are the kids on defense and their coaches for not being prepared and/or knowing that the ball was in play when the center just handed it to the QB ...

PS ...

Jim ... there's a reason that they keep score in football games ...

Trey... You are wrong... Sorry... I know it happens very rarely but...

You have some serious issues. E courage aint hard to come by. You've now started [bleep] with me, and I haven't personally attacked you.

I disagree that it's a good play, but it's my opinion. It's legal, as stated...bush league too. Real bush league.

You? You're a piece of [bleep].

How so, Bart? I'm willing to listen to an argument other than "it's bush league" ... since that's only a matter of opinion ...

Hey, as you said, it's legal. I agree...just think it's bush league. Simple as that. A Jr. High team falling for it doesn't mean they're poorly coached or brain dead...that part I disagree with. Some coaches think about this type of crap all the time...others think about coaching their kids the game. The ones that think about tricking others are probably more prepared to react to tricks. As I said, some "tricks" are within the spirit of the game, some are simply within the rules. When you trick the team as to where the ball is during live play, that's one thing...when you trick them in to not playing...it means to me, you can't play with them straight up.

But yes, it's legal.

I was just reading about another trick play that, when first used, baffled the defense.

They called it the "projectile pass" but it came to be more commonly known as the forward pass.

That video was funny as could be. I'm forwarding it on to Coach Pete, maybe we'll use it next year at the Rose Bowl...

Cartod- I believe this is the point you make the wife comment on .280Rem as you did Bart?

E courage? Some of you here are a real hoot.! Do you really want to fight on the internet?

The kids are in middle school... A time where fundamentals are a huge part of learning(remember when I said a coach is a teacher?)... The fact that the coach yelled to move the ball to confuse the other team even more,is amazing... That coach isn't about anything but winning and sports just aren't about that.... Doing the right thing might not be the most popular thing sometimes... Coaches should be better than that...

I guess I think of it as "innovative", not "bush league" ...

again, within the rules is within the rules. The only "tricky" thing about it is that you don't see it very often, if at all ... but at some point in time, any "new" play is a "trick play", and you have to be prepared for it... and obviously, the defense was not prepared.

I think about this as well ... you're coached, from day one at the earliest age, on two fundamentals of defense.

1. Once the offense is set, when the ball moves is when you move ... you don't listen to or watch the QB or other players ... you watch the ball ... when it moves, the play is ON

2. Once the ball is in play, you go until the whistle blows, period.


From what I saw, the defense didn't 'remember' either of those fundamentals ... they were simply "out played" in this instance ... yah, it was a 'brain play' and not a 'muscle play', but still legal and one that could have EASILY been stopped by the defense ...

Your posts in this thread are here for folks to read. And you trying to act like I'm the one starting schit? You won't last long here. Your trolling is real low level.

Bart ...

I understand what you're saying, but even at that level of football the players should KNOW that the ONLY person allowed to move the ball to correct it's position on the field is one of the officials...

again, the defense didn't follow two of the most basic rules of defense ... that's not the fault of the offense.

I will take note, your advice is very important to me.

Bart ...

In the interest of fairness, I'll admit that I'd hate to have been beaten on such play, or to win on such a play ... because I'd rather know I could beat the team "straight up", or at least that I lost playing as hard as I could while I got the best of the other team on every play ...

but in the end, eliminating my emotions from the equation, I would also hope I was smart enough to realize what was going on, and stop it from happening to me.

I just can't seem to get past how easily the defense was fooled on that play ... which is why I don't get as upset about it as you seem to be...

I disagree, but it's too much to type for this subject. I won't be coaching my kids to do this. Personal preference. I guess I'll cover it for the defense though.

See, that's part of your problem. You don't know when someone is simply stating fact or giving advice. I have no advice for you. You'll fix yourself here.

As a former little league coach, I don't like it and I wouldn't run it, but if another team ran it against me I would take responsibility and say nothing. But I think the other coach is little prick who never played the game at a high level.

Blah blah blah, I lost my cool with bart. At what point should we get back to the subject of coaching and sportsmanship?

You can't do that Trey... These kids are 13-15 years old and run on emotion as well as early brewing testosterone... It was a crappy call from a stupid coach...

You lose credibility when you call the coach "stupid" after he scores and wins the game.

there's a big difference between legal and moral rules for adults too.

I try to follow the moral rules even if it means ignoring the legal rules on occassion.


sports especially involving kids are the same for me, I'd rather err to the side of above board than sneaky pete, if nothing else for the example it sets for the kids.

it was perfectly legal for us to play against shorthanded teams this summer, but I wouldn't allow it.

tis the great thing about this life we all get to make choices and if you're not revulsed by the man you see in the mirror I reckon it's all good. but I try and hold that guy to a pretty high standard


I don't know many folks that are as insanely stupidly competitive as I am, tis why I've avoided coaching my kids, kids are supposed to have fun, not get yelled at, after all a man has to know his limitations.

This^^^

Bart ... let me ask you this...

At what age or level do you think that it becomes ok to incorporate "brain plays" into the game?

While football (at any level) involves a LOT of "muscle" and "reaction" to compete, it also involves strategy and thinking. Just because you typically line it up and go at it to see who can push who out of the way doesn't mean that using your brain isn't a part of the game, or that using your brain to beat someone is "bush league" ...

I know we disagree, and aren't going to change each other's minds on this ... I'm not saying you have to like it either. I respect all that say they don't think football should involve such plays - at least at that age/level ...

but I tend to think that at whatever age/level it is, when they start putting real officials on the field ... and keeping real score ... and giving away real championships, that anything and everything within the rules is fair game, and the players and coaches on any team that's decided to compete for the title should be prepared to deal with anything legal that comes their way ...

And, if I know little league and little league referees (and I do), if I had a middle line backer smart enough to nail the little smarmy bastid, the refs would have flagged him for some kind of a sportsmanship violation that they won't be able to find in the rule book.

Just my opinion, but there's a HUGE difference between playing with a full team against a short-handed team, vs. the trick play in question here.

The very nature of playing 11 vs. 9 creates an advantage for the team that can field enough players to put 11 out there ...

However ...

Once you pull 2 players to make it 9 vs. 9, the playing field is again perfectly level, and both teams can now compete, fairly and ethically within the rules ...

and that "trick play" gave the offense NO advantage over the defense that simply let the QB walk past them and then run for a score ...

again, the two scenarios are COMPLETELY different ...

Yep. And if you had covered this with your kids, and had a savvy tough kid that smoked that QB after getting a good running start and the QB got hurt...I bet the other coach wouldn't seem so smart then. Doubt the parents would like it much either.

I don't know about brain levels Trey because my 13 year old son is a constant brain fart... That play was all about sneaky coaches,not about good execution and play calling... Lombardi and Landry would be as thrilled as I am about those kids running that play as I am...

.....Or maybe we should just melt all of the trophies down and give all of the nice kids a ring for participating.

To my recollection a perfecty defining analogy of this situation may be portrayed as-

Two guys walk to the middle of the street to fight.

Each one has the intention of winning this so called fight.

The two young lads take stance ready to trade blow for blow.

One of the lads starts the fight by a quick shot to his opponents sak o nuts!

The opponent is baffeled as is his audience to this unexpected play that is perfectly legal in this arena but by an ethics standpoint is uncalled for.

The fight is over and both sides are disputing the outcome.

Ethically or unethically? Is the real question.

Is the sak grappler held high as king or is he revered as the lowlife sack basher that is too chicken to to go head to head ethically...

I myself would like to be respected......

But if it's "legal" Trey?

The line of distinction here is trickery during play (ball fakes, reverses, etc), and trickery that causes the other team NOT to play, and that combined with the age of the players. Like you said, though, once the ball is set for play...you have to be ready...young kids like that, can't be expected, even when properly coached, to recognize such an unusual looking situation, especially when an adult coach is "aiding in the deception" from the sideline.

If I'm walking into the middle of the street to fight someone 'bare handed' (meaning no weapons other than yourself), then the kick to the balls is TOTALLY fair game, and in no way 'unethical' ... and you're damn right that I'll do whatever I can to 'win' said fight, as long as I'm doing it by myself, and not with a stick, pipe, bat, brass knucks, knife, gun, etc...

Now, if we decide that we are only going to "box", meaning the only blows allowed in the fight are fists to the front of the body and face, then the kick to the balls is out of the question, and unethical if employed by anyone ...

but you said it's a "fight" for the purpose of "winning", ... so in that case, again, the kick to the balls is fine with me, and you'd better believe I'd blame myself if I didn't prepare for the other guy to try anything/everything to beat me ...

you're right ... it would be legal to field 11 vs. 9 ... but my point was that the 'trick play' was not an inherent advantage to either team, whereas fielding 11 vs. 9 is ...

and for the record, I wouldn't fault the other coach for fielding 11 players if I only had 9 ... in fact, I'd expect him to, since the game was/is designed for 11 players on either side of the ball ...

IF the other coach wanted to play 9 vs. 9, that's his call, but it wouldn't be a "bush league" move to play 11 players ... what WOULD be bush league would be for me to cry about it if I only had 9 players to put out there against him and his team ...

You are unethical like the cheap shot you pulled on Bart. Your a sack puncher, figures.

In my book you will now be referred to as Retod "The Puncher of the Sacks".

Do us a favor and stop admiring your turdtites and pull your head out of you fart cave, or just stop posting its starting to stink in here!

comment recinded, apology offered

Nope... You are wrong... WGM is one of the good guys here...

nah ... not at all ...

Once two guys square up to 'fight to win', and nobody is sucker-punching anyone before the fight is officially started, or using any weapons other than their own bodies ... if you're not smart enough or able to defend your entire body, that's not my fault.

The point of a fight is put your opponent in submission as quickly as possible, and to defend yourself from being injured or put into submission. That's the beginning and end of it all ...

My apologies WGM, I see it as a sucker punch and that is what I call it. A breach in a code of conduct.

The fight I am trying to explain is the fight of dignity. A code of ethics, the invisible boundry.

I see the other guy cheering for the nut shot. Why in the battle feild do you aim for the head or chest cavity for the kill and not the balls?
Winning is winning. I agree but why always look for loopholes to get the win instead of doing a hard days work? I see your point. I see Barts point. I don't see retods point.

How can you feel content with a sucker punch?
I'm being sincere.

From what I have read in your posts on this thread, the idea that you would comment on another poster's credibility due to name calling seems somewhat ironic...

Pot, I'd like you to meet Kettle...

Chris

The real question is would I have shook hands with the other coach after the game if I lost because of that play. I suppose I would, after all, my kids would be watching, but I wouldn't forget and next year couldn't come too soon.

Alls fair in love and war.

The "Bad Ball" play is run in youth football all of the time. We choose not to teach it to our players but you can bet we teach them to look out for it....if that ball twitches that Center and QB better be ready......this was the opposing Coaches responsibility.

Bruz

OK - with this additional info NOW I'll go with Brother Bart's assessment for this age level. The coach- a supervising adult- getting into the game in this way crosses my line. Had he just sent the play in from the sidelines as normal, then my original opinion vis-a-vis knowing the fundamentals would stand.

Still, the opposing coach should have taught his boys the ball-in-play rules.

According to news reports (NY Daily News), Driscoll was trailing Wynn Seale middle school 0-6 in the third quarter and had just been called for a penalty. As the next play began, the quarterback looked to the sidelines and then yelled to his team the officials needed to move the ball five more yards to the correct spot after the penalty. He then asked his center for the ball, and the rest is history. The game ended in a 6-6 tie.

Coach Art Rodriguez called the play, known to his team as the "Penalty Play," one of the highlights of his 31-year coaching career.

If this is truly how the play transpired, I feel even more strongly this was a chicken-schitt play designed more to swell the egos of the coaches than to broaden the skill levels and sportsmanship of his players.

Nice job coach Rodriguez...

Chris

I agree. I can see questioning its use in an ethical sense, but one of the most basic lessons in defense is ball movement by the center means 'live ball', and that defense standing there showed a lack or preparedness. Right or wrong, they weren't prepared for the play.



I grew up in these coach's era, and both placed a great deal of importance on winning. I wouldn't even begin to imagine what either would say about this particular play, but given the fact winning was on the line, I doubt they would disapprove. Neither worried about 'hurt feelings' as long as rules weren't broken.

"If it doesn't matter who wins or loses, then why do they keep score?"

"Winning is not a sometime thing, it's an all the time thing. Winning is a habit"

"The object is to win fairly, by the rules... but to win!"

Vince Lombardi

The question to argue, especially by Vince's last quote, is was this fair, and by the rules?
Great discussion (minus the unwanted personal attacks). I can see the passion of both sides.
Jim

Somehow I get the impression that a lot of guys here played on a lot of losing teams......and always had an excuse.

Trick plays are just that....tricks. It is the resposibility of coaches....and players....to prepare for these plays because they ARE going to happen in one form or another. This particular play is NOT new and has existed at least since the 1970's when I was playing.....we saw it tried then too.

The way to defeat this type of play is to be alert and NEVER qit playing without a whistle. If the quarterback had been met by two defensive tackles and a middle linebacker (all three attempting to separate his head from his body) as soon as he took the first step......this discussion wouldn't be happening. Instead you'd be watching a video titled "OUCH!!".

I don't have any problem with any team running plays like this....you do what it takes to win within the rules. I DO have a problem with a coach who doesn't prepare his team and teach the rules of the game, then gets beat because of that lack of coaching.....and then cry about being "tricked" when the real fault was his own.

This play is in the same class as a famous play by Texas A&M to beat Texas one year where a pass was "skipped" to a wide reciever, apparently incomplete.....except the reciever was one step back from the line of scrimage and the "pass" was actually a lateral. The quarterback and reciever both demontsrated displeasure and began yelling at each other while walking back to the center of the field, Texas defense quit and began to go back to the line, everyone on the field quit......all except the far side reciever who "sneaked" down the field, into the end zone where he was tossed an easy TD pass.

Was this a "trick"...sure it was just like this play being talked about here. WAS it illegal.....no, well within the rules, just as THIS play. WAS the offense a buch of dirty players for running it.....no, the fault lay with the defense for quitting before the play was dead and coaches for not preparing their team to play......just as in the case here.

Middle school, high school, college and pros.....it's all the same. fail to prepare or play with your head.....in the clouds??.....and you will be beaten by a smarter team.

I believe it was Lambardi who said..."The rules were NOT made to be broken, but it is my perogotive to stretch them as far as possible". I find it informative that so many want to blast a team or coach who used the rules to their benifit and WON.....instead of ripping a coach/team who didn't prepare and stood around with their thumbs in their.....pockets???....while the other team "took" their championship.

That was a great play. Hard to fathom that some here are upset that the coach called for this play. Maybe what TexasRick stated is why.

One of the questions officials ask coaches before the beginning of the game is if they have any trick plays. They ask so that they will be aware and not blow that whistle inadvertently during one of them and to determine as best they can the legality of the play.

Alan

+1

What folks ain't getting is that for that age group (12-13 yo fer chrissakes!), most any supervising adult intervening in the middle of things to stop a play IS part of the rules.

Watch it again and look at the body language of the kids on the defensive line, they ain't being "fooled" by the opposing team, they are following instructions from an adult. In context this is no different than if the coach who called out had been a referee.

I don't blame the coach of the defending side, no one would reasonably expect an opposing Middle School coach to be that pathetic. While it was happening he probably thought the opposing coach had raised a legitimate objection too.

Anyhoo... the offending coach will pay, that play and his role in it will follow him around. I ain't even met the guy and I think he's a prick already.

I'll bet the coach, his Principal and the Superintendent of the district are gonna get some choice emails as this thing goes viral.

Birdwatcher

I think it was a chickenshitt play.

Just cuzz something is 'legal' don't mean it's right.

Chickenshitt. That the coach yelled out,"the ball has to be moved 5 yards" makes it indefensible.

I would love to have seen that qb get pounded by the linebacker when he walked up...

Agreed
Basic football fundimentals 101 :
Two teams face off, ( check) the center hands the ball to the QB ( check) Qb attempts to advance said football over the opponemenrts goal line ( check)

Defense got caught with it's mouth open, period.

I coached T ball for years and we taught the rules of the game.
I wish I had tape of my teams infield triple play.

Knowledge of basic rules won the game.

This play is geting legs, and is being linked everywhere

Yep, and I'm a member of a coaches forum. The overwhelming majority acknowledge this is "legal" and also chickenschit. This type of play comes up for discussion there all the time. Not among those that just got beaten by it. Coaches that pull this type schit...may have been in the game for a long time, but they don't earn any respect for winning this way, or in this case tying...which, to me, makes it even worse..."y'all had us beat straight up the entire game, but we pulled some bush league schit to make sure nobody won"

Exactly.

In life as well as in sports, the rules define what is "moral".

The rules define what "trick" plays are not allowed.

Intelligence is what makes Football such a great sport. It takes more than brawn to win.

If you want to watch a sport that is purely a physical contest, go watch some Arm Wrestling.

Got to say, if you can't teach kids to expect the unexpected, your simply grooming sheep.

Under different circumstances I be inclined to agree...

...but them kids weren't outwitted by a clever ruse by the opposing team, they were following instructions from a supervising adult.

So I dunno what lessons they learned... to disrespect authority? that adults will lie to you?

Even sadder, them kids celebrating in the end zone like something heroic had just happened

Just my $0.02

Birdwatcher

Valid point. The fact no LB'er drilled the QB the second he crossed the neutral zone, makes the defense look as poorly coached, as the play itself makes the Offensive coach look like a d!ck.

The ball was lifted off the ground (snap) and handed to the QB, who advanced the ball.

There was no whistle, so it was LIVE ball.

The defensive coach pooched it by not having his kids tackle the SOB.

Live ball, advanced = tackle. Period.

Regardless of what ANY coach says on the sidelines, once the ball is set, the ONLY person that can call a play dead or give reposition instructions without a play running is an official.

Legal play, within the rules, and caught the defense flat-footed.

Just because it doesn't LOOK like a "standard play", doesn't mean it's not a play.

When the ball is lifted, it's snapped. Hit the SOB with the ball, unless/until the whistle is blown to end the play.

Pretty simple.

No disagreement.

Now that way of thinking is just WRONG!

The only right way is for the QB to announce, in a loud, clear voice, exactly what the upcoming play is going to be.

Play fair, boys. No sneakin.'

Thinking outside the box for sure. And teaches a hard lesson in knowing the rules of the game.

Kobayashi Maru anyone?

Fun to watch for sure. Thanks for posting it.

Yes!

Pretty much sums it up. Sucks that the coach didn't install it in their heads about "ball in play".
Maybe we shouldn't keep score and give them all medals for just showing up.

Of course folks are taking it from one extreme to another which it typical.

Congratulations, you just tricked a 13 year old. Must be the same satisfaction some get from screwing a retard.

This comment is directed at nobody in particular, but:

I find it ironic the way some have conducted themselves here in a discussion about sportsmanship. Wow. Just wow...

Those dang cinders in other people's eyes are always a problem.

Tricked or taught? I'd say it was a good lesson at a tender age that will likely not be forgotten. That's entering into that priceless realm.

Ricky, what you wrote should be the last word on this!

All through life what some people do and some things that happen are not going to seem fair. It begins way before your 13 and never stops.
Get used to it kids, welcome to the real world.

Not sure I agree with how that play was done or think it was great. I have very conflicting opinions about it. It's just another day in the life, and another lessoned learned. Some are not so pleasant.

I noticed that too , but wasn't going to say anything.
There is a reason it's called a game.

Scott, you apparently missed the part about them being poorly coached. All coaches think of silly [bleep] like this to take up practice time. Don't you know that?

Like I said before....losers ALWAYS have a good excuse for their failures.

Also...saw the QB and 2 coaches from the "tricky team" on the CBS Morning Show this morning. Middle school QB had a mustache, and 3 all needed their green cards checked.

And people who can't beat you straight up are still losers.

Actually that team that got tricked didn't lose. The game ended in a 6-6 tie, and, according to the Mexican coaching the tricky team, some Tx state tie breaker rule declared the other team the winner. So, screw them, now the tricky ones are the losers in more ways than one.

Without commenting on the sportsmanship thing either way, I'm astonished that the defensive line didn't go when the ball moved.

I was a big ol' nearsighted boy, so I was always a lineman, sometimes O and sometimes D. But from the D side, one of the key fundamentals was that when the ball moved, you went full speed. Period.

Maybe it's not taught that way any more. I guess I'm old now.

I don't know how I got involved in this becuse my undersized free safety was instructed to never let anyone get behind him...and, being smarter than I am, he never did. I really liked that kid.

But the trick play was still bush league.

The little league emphasis on "sportsmanship and fair play" and deferral to marginally competent officials (most of whom mean well) is not where you are supposed to learn the cruel lessons of life. That happens in practice.

Plus we had a rule that after the third grade, the ball had to be delivered between the legs. Obviously that isn't the rule in Texas...not saying right or wrong, just the way it was.

We coach that too...assure you our 11 and 12 year old kids would still have been fooled by the way it was done, and especially the coach yelling on the sideline.


http://cnn.com/video/?/video/bestoftv/2010/11/09/exp.am.intv.coach.quarterback.cnn

The coach was yelling move the ball?

Funny, my coach (and damned near every coach I can recall playing for or against) would say the same thing.

Ball moves, no whistle... HIT the ball carrier.

Defense, at it's base.

The offense might have run a trick play, but the defense forgot it's fundamentals.

Amen to that... Defense goes for the ball till the whistle blows. They tried the same stunt on my sons 65lb team. The resulting tackle caused a fumble and we recovered the ball.

This is a legal play... What makes it work is handing the ball back and not hiking it. But once that ball moves the defense should be reacting.

Sure, it's legal... Great...

But, with the coach hollering on the sidelines to his team that the officials need to move the ball up another five yards is NOT the same as a simple side-hike which catches the other team off-guard. It gets drilled into kids to listen to the coach. I suspect the defense heard the coach hollering, too (it's part of the "trick," right?) and listened to the coach (hey, coach said the officials need to move the ball...) so were caught off-guard when the quarterback actually started running with the ball.

Were they caught flat-footed? Sure. Should they have nailed the q-b as soon as he took the ball? Probably. But I still believe that at that age (12-13) kids should be taught good sportsmanship and that games will be won through hard work and building your skills.

In no way do I see the success of that play as being attributed to the skill of the offensive players. It was the result of an ADULT coach managing to trick a bunch of KIDS, and nothing more.

Chris

Waaaaa....it's not FAIR. He TOLD me not to tackle the quarterback and then took off.

It's just like that other play when that mean defensive end TOLD me I wasn't supposed to block him and then sacked our now injured quarterback......it's not FAIR when people don't tell the truth!

Whatever...

I just don't happen to coach like that, and i don't agree it was a "great" play. Pull it off against the Pittsburgh Steelers and I'll say it was great. Pull it off against a bunch of kids and it is what it is, an ego trip for the coaches.

FWIW, I've taken our teams (not football, admittedly) to two state championships, so have some experience with winning... Managed to do it without resorting to faking out a bunch of kids, too...

Chris

If my excuse was "well, but, coach, the other team's coach was saying that they needed to move the ball, and I listened to him and didn't do anything like I was coached by you to do, like hit the ball carrier when the ball moved and the whistle hadn't blown"...

I'd likely still be doing push-ups.

Here's a little hint: coaches at all levels are supposed to come up plays, calls, schemes, and sequences that fool or outsmart the other team and coach. Thus, different routes, blocking schemes, blitzes, formations, coverages, etc.

"Trick" plays are part of the game, and if the other team sticks to fundamentals, they don't work. If you go lax, or start hedging, or backing off fundamentals, then "trick" plays have a chance.

Do your job, follow through on your assignments, stay grounded to the fundamentals, and stay focused on the game, at all times, and you don't have to worry about "trick" plays.

Poor coaching of the defense. Opposing coaches are to be ignored, and the ball moving after settling into the center's snapping hand is the hair trigger.

This wasn't little league. These are 13-14 year old kids going into high school next year. Saw the QB and coach being interviewed on TV today. The kid is old enough to shave.

If they didn't know better beforehand, they sure do now. Gonna get mad at a coach, get on the coach of the defensive team. Just another version of one of the oldest plays in the book. The defensive teams coaching staff was either very young and inexperienced or stupid. There was plenty of time for a coach to warn his players that the play was live and stop the play for a short gain.

Quarterback sneak.

In the interview, they thought the QB would get hit and hoped for 5 yds to make 1st down.

I say do over. Defense caught napping and the whining starts.

The important thing is they lost.

That's what you get when you stand in front of Earl Cambell

As long an the trick play is within the rules, hey, suck it up.
Anyone remember Dan Marino faking the spike? Wonderful.

Actually, I've not heard that the opposing school or coach said anything,and they won the game as well. It's just folks commenting on what they see. Bush league, pure and simple.

Sean,

If you think a coach, an adult, even the opposing coach yelling at 13 year old kids wouldn't make one hesitate at the very least...we'll just have to disagree. Call it "poor coaching" if you want. I disagree. Schitty move, bottom line. Glad they lost. Bush league move netting you face time on tv...but you still lost the game...great! What if the QB or coaches were "illegals"?

I'll ask again ... at what age/level is it that you deem it appropriate to use "trickery"?


to be fair, I already defined it for myself ... once you have real teams, with real officials on the field, keeping score, and a team is named "champion" at the end of the season ... well, if it's within the rules, it's fair game, perfectly ethical/moral, and you should be prepared for it.

Speaking of tricks reminds me of the time a guy told me he was going to kick my rear so I sorta covered up but he hit me upside my head. I never did figure out if that was some kind of trick to throw me off guard or if he just didn't know what he was doing. Hurt, anyway.

Jim;

So what if they were Norwegians or North Dakotans? I fail to see the relevance of that part of your statement.

As to the play; it was legal, and within the rules. The D-Line should have reacted to the snap, the ILB lit his ass up, and the safety closed in.

Outside of that, it's simply sour grapes on the play.

No sour grapes here. Didn't happen to me or my team. That team didn't lose. JMHO, YMMV. Legal but Bush league.

The "illegals" thing is brought up in other stuff...just thought I'd take a poke with it.

All this talk about the chillrren got me to thinking, it wouldn't surprise me to find some NFL players aren't even as smart as the average 14 year old boy.

It was a trick play. It was perfectly legal according to the rules of the game. Everybody learned something. Including the other coach.

"Bush league" because it was unorthodox?

I'll take that, and having it work every day over "classic" and failing.

Figure Tressel @ tofu is the later category, and you see what happens.

Of course, I'm a Lombardi fan, too. "Winning isn't everything; it's the only thing."

Again, YMMV...

For young kids, some of lifes most important lessons happen when they lose...be it a football game or a toy or a pet there's valuable lessons to be learned.

At young ages there is far more to the game than winning.imo

Bush league because it is. Adult tricks kids. Legal, simple, Bush league. If you or others find the valuable life and football lessons in it...ok. 2 camps here...I ain't leaving mine. Not much help for your camp with the "winning is everything" stance when they didn't win.

Adult tricked other adult. Coach called play; other coach didn't react. Of course, kids pulled play off against other kids, so I guess kids tricked kids, too.

No, they didn't win, but they left everything LEGAL on the field, and damned if they didn't try.

I kind of had a thought THAT was a lesson in life, but YMMV...

Sean... You are wrong about this...

Nope, not even.

But, you can think so it you want to.

A whole lot went on there, and it says much about many levels of the game and life.

Personally, losing when being outfoxed within the rules don't fret me, I don't ask for a do-over, and I don't whine that it wasn't "conventional"; I try to learn from it.

It would appear that many have mileage that varies.

The "trick" coach did nothing outside the rules; nothing illegal; nothing "wrong. Hell, he didn't even expect it to work.

It did work, and folks are fretted that it worked because it "ain't natural".

Well, hell, neither was passing the ball forward at one time; but it was legal, and it worked.

The defense was asleep, and didn't react. Had they done so, I can tell you that as a former safety I'd have LOVED to have had a stand-up shot at a walking, nonchalant QB with no traffic between us. The D didn't do it's job, and the O pulled a legal rabbit.

Shame on the opposing coach for not having his D jump at the first sign of ball movement.

I guess that since I've been a Pop Warner coach excludes me form being anything but a casual observer... If I was a coach on the offence, I'd be very ashamed about what my head coach just did...I'd never teach this in practice because snap counts and getting off of the ball are way more important than this kind of trick... Again... You are wrong...

Nope, far from wrong.

Of course, if I were the defensive coach, and my team didn't react to the ball being snapped, I'd be damned ashamed of what I (wasn't) coaching them, too.

Fundamentals, Bart. THAT's what it comes down to on the defensive side of the ball. The offense could have taken the field in hula skirts, wearing flaming tiaras and go-go boots... it wouldn't have mattered if the defense had paid attention to the ball, the whistle, and HIT the ball carrier.

Pure and simple fundamentals on defense lapsed.

My MLB would have buried that kid,we don't teach trick plays because we have talented kids playing for us.

No, it sounds like you have kids that stay to the fundamental basics. THAT is what kills "trick" plays.

well yea,we teach the basics,but we do have an amazingly talented group of young men playing for us.we have 10 year olds running the veer like WV.

Ain't saying much....

Because second place is like kissing.......














your sister.

Just not much too it, huh.

Tell me.

I haven't watched much WVU football this season, but if I'm not mistaken, they don't even run the veer.

Pretty sure they just run a zone read (a la Rich Rod's team) out of multiple shotgun formations, similar to what Oregon also runs.

I saw that play on ESPN last evening, it's funny to watch, but I as a coach can't imagine EVER having kids run that. I've heard of it before, but it's pretty despicable to see it actually run in a real game.

It reflects pretty poorly on the coaches, in my opinion. I coached 3rd and 4th grade football this year (8 and 9 year olds), and we ran shotgun formation over 50% of the time (much easier for them than under center, as the league uses a ball that is WAY too big), with a little bit of option/zone read plays thrown in. Hell, I even had my 9 year old guard pulling on trap plays by the end of the year and he did a damn fine job of it.

I'll say this... You are a hard headed SOB... And you are still wrong...

+1

I haven't kept score on this but at the risk of not letting this die, has any active coach on here thought the play call was okay?

I say it's chicken chit..

It's kinda like someone patting themselves on the back when the welfare check showed up in the mail..

I'm an active coach, and I guess if "okay" means "within the rules of the game", yes, it was. But, the way I see it, the play may have been legal but it doesn't mean it was an ethical play call in any way, shape, or form. I'd have never made the call, but I'm damn sure my defense would've tackled that QB, regardless.

Also, I'd hope damn sure that the refs would've blown the play dead. If the head coach would've told me prior to the game they may run a "trick" play like that, they'd be getting flagged if they tried to run that. I know in the league I coached in, no way in hell that play would fly. I can't honestly see it working unless the coaches had notified the referees prior to the game or prior to running it.

If you need to call that play to win a game, then you need to learn how to become a better coach.

Why was the entire defense, except for one player, just standing there watching? Tackle his ass!

I think I've made my opinion clear.

Also, the real question should be, what kind of league allows the center to "snap" the ball by handing it over his shoulder? Pretty pathetic if they allow that at a 13/14 year old level. As far as I'm concerned, play should have been blown dead at the "snap".

For those that are asking about the ref's involvement in the play, you should watch the interview with the coach and the kid who plays QB for the team that ran the trick play. During the interview, the coach made it clear that before every game, the coaches get a chance to talk to the referees about any 'trick plays' they may run, specifically so that they can make sure they are legal/allowable plays, and so that the ref's don't blow the play dead inadvertently if the play is called. That's precisely what the coach did prior to the game.

So again, I'll state that the play was known to the ref's, deemed legal, and then called/run by the team who did it. It was within the rules, with prior notice to the officials, and that's that.

Is a play like that within "the spirit of the game"? Even I don't think it really is ... but regardless, it was a legal play, and when you're in a competition with clearly defined rules (such as football, even at the Junior High level), then it's fair game.

Were I a coach, like 280rem is, I would also be spending 99.9% of my time working on the fundamentals and more orthodox plays ... but that doesn't mean that I would skip over educating my team about trick plays, and making sure they knew what to do in such situations.

That said, once more I'll ask to anyone who says that it was a "chickenschitt" call ... At what point (age or level of football) does it become "ok" to run such a play, or any really 'strange' trick plays such as this one?

Sir, relevant to another thread, you are now "0 for 3" in the game of "Spot the Mexican"


MOST Americans down here look like that, across hundreds of miles.

The way the Border Patrol does it is to get folks to say something, the way one pronounces English being as good as an ID in most cases.

Anyhoo... its easier to tell in person, besides the accent, Mexican Mexicans usually bear the signs of tougher living.

But I digress...

Birdwatcher

I should have said other than you and me, and Bart (if we count assistants ).

WGM,

To answer your question, I have no problem in general with unorthodox plays, such as a halfback pass, double pass, direct snap, fake punt, etc... These types of plays are, and should be, fair game. Offensively, coaches can teach these plays if they want to. Defensively, coaches should teach their players how to recognize and defend against these plays, and middle school is not too young.

The problem I have with the play in question, and the only reason it worked, is that the coach specifically took advantage of the young age and inexperience of the players. It would probably never work against a high-school team, and no quarterback in his right mind would ever agree to try this play in college or the NFL because that q-b would get destroyed. So in this instance, your question is kind of a Catch-22.

Yes, it was "legal." Yes, it was within the rules. That, however, does not make it a "great" play. I believe calling any "trick" play which only works due to the youth of the opposing team is poor coaching and a poor example of sportsmanship. In my view, a coach should be setting life examples, not just "win at any cost" examples.

Obviously, some people thoroughly enjoyed watching a bunch of 13 year-olds get humiliated. If that's your thing, great. As many of you have said, they won't get caught off-guard by that play again. I'd just like to see that coach try to pull it off in a high-school game.

Chris

May have nothing to do with the discussion (crying) here, but I HAVE seen that play pulled off at the high school level.....and it worked for the same reason. The defense went to sleep and was not properly coached/prepared. By the way....it only works once when a team has been coached or fooled before.

I've also seen equally silly and rediculous plays run at the high school AND at the college level (remember the "skip pass" play run by Texas A&M in the 60's)......and they DO work as long as the defense is unprepared and stands around.

Junior High IS NOT too young to start learning the lesson of being prepared and alert at all times. One of the real problems today is that we shield and treat our young adults as children until the age of 25 or more......and end up with childish adults.

Yeah, that has been all over the place today..

first thing threw my mind after seeing it...was " great... teaching some Mexican kid how to swipe women's purses at the bus station and airport..."

I thought it was pretty sleazy and unsportsman like..

they lost anyway to the other team...

what kind of sportsmanship does that teach our kids?

If they can pull it off at the high school or college level, more power to them, and the defense deserves what they get.

I don't get where you figure I'm "crying." I just don't happen to agree that I'd feel all proud and full of myself, if I were the coach, that I'd pulled one over on a bunch of thirteen year-olds. If you would, bully for you. I just happen to think it was a cheap call at that age level. You think differently, and I don't have a problem with that. Different strokes...

As I said in my previous post, I agree middle school is not too young to teach your players to learn to recognize and react to unorthodox plays. I just happen to believe THIS PARTICULAR PLAY was bush-league.

When I began coaching where I live, all the youth league teams (Little League, Soccer, Youth Football, Softball, etc...) fed into one high school (we now have two), and the youth league coaches all worked together and with the high school coaches to prepare the kids for the high school sports programs. We were very competitive amongst ourselves, but I would never have called that kind of a play in our program. I guess that gives me a different coaching philosophy than many of you, but that's the way it goes...

Chris

C'mon...
Now it's the ref's fault? That don't add up.

A ref would loose his job if he called a play dead for no good reason. And be in hot water with a lot of people.

What should have happened is the D line smash the O line onto their butts as soon as the ball left the turf. Same as any other play. Then the O coach shrug and grin sheepishly across the field at his opponent as if to say "what they hay, it was worth a try".

I have to side with VANimrod. The kids learned a good lesson, both about life and the game. And it still cracks me up how all the D team just stands and looks as the ball carrier waltzes by.

Every kid's coach in AMerican will be teaching/fortifying fundamentals at their next practice.

This is a legal snap under NCAA rules...assuming the motion used is subjectively believed to be "quick and continuous". The rule specifically states that the snap need not be between the legs. If I'm not mistaken, the TXHSAA uses NCAA rules in HS football, which is what the middle schools would use too.

There's nothing you can do as an adult to fool a properly coached 13 year old. If the 13 year old has been taught proper fundamental football, he won't be fooled by anything an adult says or does. Properly coached 13 year olds are robots. And I can state that for a fact, having coached them.

Seems to be an issue that works when raised in other instances when it's just as irrelevant. Thought I'd throw it out there and see if it caught on.

Ahh.... another trick play

Anyways, another dead giveaway was the fact that all three of these people were involved in football, a quintessentially American game, the two adults making a career in it in fact.

That should give an indication of what side of the cultural fence they are from. South Texas might possibly have the highest per-capita density of Dallas Cowboys fans of anywhere in the world

Birdwatcher

Legal play.

Play explained to the refs and vetted before the game.

Legal snap.

Defense didn't react to the ball being lifted.

No whistle.

No reaction from the defense.

Yeah, it's the offensive coach's fault for not sticking with the most vanilla possible plays.

Heck, why doesn't thge league require both teams to share playbooks and schemes pregame so no one gets "tricked"? Why, they could even confer before the snap as to the play call on both sides just so there's no misunderstanding or "trickery" on routes, blocking schemes, or formations.

While we're at it, let's just stop keeping score so that no one loses (because they are all "winners" just for being them, right?).

In fact, just give them all little trophies (recyclable, of course) when they show up to try out, and not play the games at all. They can all be "champions" for participating, and now they won't even have the risk of getting hurt, or dirty, during those silly, barbaric games.

Nope, y'all can start down that road, but the play call was legal, vetted, and legit. The defense fell for it because they forgot their fundamentals.

Ball is set. No whistle. Ball moves. Hit ball carrier.

You lose sight of that on ANY play no matter what it looks like at ANY level, and the offense is going to move the ball.

Meanwhile, I'll let the whining continue so they can get to those nasty "fake punts" and "onside kicks" and that horrible "Statue of Liberty" play. Lord help us if they ever look at a "wildcat offense", direct snaps, flea-flickers, laterals, or skip-passes.

Damn that innovation anyway...

this one didn't work out
http://rivals.yahoo.com/highschool/...sion-draw-flags-ej?urn=highschool-283559

Well said!

I do have to wonder what it is the coaches here are teaching their defensive linemen to react to, though.

When the play is blown live and set, and the lines get down into position, there are TWO possibilities.

The first is that the officials will whistle the play dead before the ball moves. When that happens, the lines stand up, and the ball is NOT lifted by the center. The officials then make their call, and the OFFICIALS then reposition the ball if it needs to be respotted.

The only other possibility is that the center lifts the ball to start the play. At that time, regardless of direction, movement, positioning, etc., when the center lifts the ball, the defensive line reacts to the ball being lifted and surges forward toward the offensive line and the ball carrier.

Those are the only two options.

So, when that ball was lifted by the center, the defensive line should have reacted to that lift. Didn't matter if it went between his legs, over his shoulder or into his mouth... When that ball leaves the ground in the center's hand, the defensive line hits the offensive line and goes for the ball-carrier.

I've seen 8 and 9 year-old kids coached and react that way; everytime the center lifts the ball, the d-line surges. Period.

Fundamentals, and THAT is about the base fundamental for defense. Ball gets lifted by the center means GO! And, that ball is ALL the defensive line reacts to; nothing else.

I don't have a problem with the play, and I think lots of you gents are underestimating the players. Most middle school players around here have been playing organized ball for 5-6 years by the time they enter 8th grade. That's plenty of time to learn that ball movement means 'Go', and trap plays, Cover 2, inside reverses, influence blocking...

They didn't get cheated, they were tricked. I doubt a single player on the defense genuinely blames the result on anyone but themselves - except for the influence of parent outrage after-the-fact.

I can't believe you dumb@sses are still arguing about this!

If nothing else, a D player should have slapped the ball out of his hand as he strided by.

Fumbled football. Still no whistle.

Funny, effective, ROTF here...

Yeah, Let's wrestle to settle it! ( just not nekid )
LOL

When my son was in junior high, they had a "Hey, Larry!" play. The team would line up, my son would stand behind the center (without putting his hands under center) and survey the defense. At his point, the coach would yell, "Hey, Larry!" and Larry would turn and start walking toward the sideline. (This only works with the ball in certain spots on the field.) When he got to the end, he would yell, in a very disgusted manner, "What?" This would be the signal for the center to snap the ball to the 4 back who would take off around the opposite end. We never found out if it would work, because the coach always felt that actually using it would be beyond the scope of sportsmanship.

We do ball drills with sprints a couple of times a week. Tell them watch the ball, ball only. Move only on the ball. The we set out to fool them with hard counts, and fool them in to relaxing when say "ok guys relax" after they've been specifically told what the drill is, and they've done it before, and you STILL will fool a good percentage in to either jumping on a sound, or relaxing when you tell them to. THEY'RE 13 YEARS OLD...THEY'RE EASY TO FOOL! EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASY! It's not a challenge Sean, and I question if you've ever coached at this level. You can't possibly believe what you're saying about it being "pure fundamentals" if you've coached kids at this age. And like someone else pointed out...you NEVER see this play at the higher levels. Why? The kids are more football savvy...have been around longer...are just plain older...have developed a field awareness. There may have been players on that field that hadn't played before that season. So you can call it "fundamental defense" if you want...there was NOTHING fundamental about the play.

You've made it clear Sean that you believe that properly coached 13 year old kid can't be fooled like this. Didn't Bart and I tell you that you're wrong on this? And you continue to argue? You've been told you're wrong, now agree!

Don't know if WVU is running veer...Rich Rod is almost pure zone read, but lots of teams are running variations of veer out of the gun. Florida, Auburn, TCU, Nebraska all are now. TCU has for a while. Florida too.

Sports is not just about athleticism.... it is about using your brian and your strength.... if the other team cannot use their brain then it is their fault the play worked....

Football is not just about some 300 lb thug pushing someone around....

Is it wrong a teams to use the clock to their advantage? What does stopping a clock or letting one run out have to do with Athleticism? Nothing... it is smart football....

Any play that you can fool your appoinent and score is a good play.... Do you complain about a reverse? is it not ment to mislead the other team? Was this playnotmenat to mislead the other team....

Yes, we've all heard, "as long as it's legal, a trick play is a trick play".

Actually Sean in this instance I don't think admitting you're wrong is a strong enough punishment.


I think you should type I'm wrong on 500 different posts on this thread.


mebbe that'll teach you a lesson about forming your own opinions!


uh best start typing, you got a long day ahead of you pard

Not a chance.

As the "coach" has spoken as to what they train kids to do, and what they are supposed to do.

So, THANK YOU for proving my point.

The "trick" play wouldn't have worked if the kids had 1) been coached what to do, and 2) done what they were coached.

Randy-

I'm think Sean is more likely to add to his sig line:

I Play Bush League!

I've played in enough bush to qualify for said....

well played, Sean ... well played.

Knew you'd take the bait!

hard headed son of a gun I ain't seen one "I'm sorry, I don't know what I was thinking forming my own opinion"


bob is gonna be some kind of pizzed when he gets here....jest sayin

With all due respect for the coaches here, my little girl started 10 and under softball this last season, where the girls pitch instead of coach pitch.

Of course, they aren't too accurate so there are a lot of walks (and many hit batters - another hard lesson for a ten year old)

And of course there are the pass balls, and stealing bases is allowed - much more prevelent than the "big leagues"

Yet the coaches take EVERY OPPORTUNITY to advance runners and many times I've seen double digit scores with only 1 or 2 hits per team.

But that is how the game goes. If you can steal - steal. If you know the weak arms are in the outfield - then run and challenge the throw - even if its so disproportionately not-that-way in the "real world"

Frankly, the sportsmanship is important. It includes behaving like gentlemen when the other side takes advantage of your weaknesses to an excess.

And I seen some of the coaches upset that they got the poop abused out of them, but they dealt with it in a sportsmanlike fashion and trained their girls harder.

Don't like the trick play - than coach your kids accordingly.

Sean isn't wrong here. There's winners and losers. And rules are rules.

Sportsmanship as a contributor to growing up is learning how to deal with the short straw - even if you got it the hard way.

I hope the coaches teach kids how to deal with that, as well as winning gracefully.

Your baseball analogy is irrelevant nonsense.

To those that believe a reverse is no different a trick play than this bullschit...it's not irrelevant. General thinking among these folks is "if it's within the rules, it's ok". I wonder if they feel that way about everything in life? I suspect not, and suspect that most making that argument don't apply that standard to everything and everybody.

So now we are going to equate the game to everything in life? Kind of makes the point to expect the unexpected or the unfair or the unjust more than ever, now doesn't it?

And its a softball analogy. It's relevant. When kids don't understand the rules about when to tag runners, or when you can tag bases, OR perhaps when to HIT THE BALL RUNNER crossing the line of scrimmage, and coaches are exploiting that, then its relevant.

And its the way the game goes.

I should just shut up and let it go, but...

As a softball coach, I can assure you there have been MANY times I have held our girls from stealing or taking extra bases when we have been way out in front of the other team. Walks are walks, so you can't refuse to advance on a walk, but there are certainly other times when, just because you can advance does not mean you should.

Yes, I do believe sports and sportsmanship teaches life lessons, and I'd rather teach honor and integrity than how to mercilessly pummel and humiliate your opponent. I have even seen our high school coaches hold runners when they could easily advance. If you have coaches who take pride in scoring at every opportunity, even when easily beating an opposing team, I'd suggest they are not very successful "coaches" at all.

Frankly, it's just as important to teach kids how to win with honor as it is to teach them to lose with dignity.

Chris

If you think the play was unethical you need a big dose of reality. If we were talking about 8-9 year old kids playing youth ball with a volunteer coach I'd agree.

By the time they are in 7th-8th grade you play for real. Not good enough, you get cut or ride the pine. The coach isn't volunteering his time. It is his job, and he is paid to win games. Don't win, you look for another job.

Think this is unethical. Wait until you have your best 7th grader recruited by the town 20 miles down the road because one of their booster club members offered his single mom a great job and a free apartment. Then they talk mom into having her "A" student repeat the 7th grade, twice. This way he can be a 20 Y/O senior, along with all their other 20 Y/O seniors and 19 year old juniors and so on. The worst part is having to play against him for the next 7 years.

Don't think this is going on and you are living on Fantasy Island. You use every edge that is legal to win. If someone thinks it is unethical, then we deal with it when they change the rules. Versions of that play have been around for decades and no one but a few guys on this forum seem to have a problem with it.

To paraphrase Lou Holtz. A football coach has one job. To win games. As long as you are winning your enemies cannot touch you. When you are losing your friends cannot help you. That applies all the way down to coaches of middle school teams. I've seen a lot of "nice guy" coaches that lost their jobs because the team didn't make the playoff's 2 years in a row.

You can vote on Oreilly if this was a Pinhead or a Patriot Play....go down about 3/4 on the page to Pinhead or Patriot...!

http://billoreilly.com/#

Nothing chickensh1t about it. The other team wasn't coached well enough to react at the movement of the football and cream the other QB.

Trick plays only work if the opponent doesn't do what their responsible to do. Like crush a QB walking across the line of scrimmage w/ no blockers.

are we still beatin this horse?
I didn't see him, but I understand the QB was on TV and he needs a shave.
Your typical 20 yr old middle schooler!

10 pages on a school football game shows part of the loss of this country. It's a friggin game, its not education, it really is a secondary thing in life, sports that is, and to get to 10 pages of converstaion... WOW.

Me, if the other team is that stupid... they deserve to loose.

Its football.

You play to win.

You play by the rules.

You Exploit weaknesses you find in others.

And yeah, I played through college.

BMT