Article from The Motley Fool -

There are rumors that Ford's (NYSE: F ) next generation F-150 could have an aluminum body. The move could shave up to 700 pounds, or 15%, off the truck's massive frame, which would go a long way to improving its fuel economy.

However, aluminum might not be the only ingredient fueling the next-generation Ford truck to greatness. That's because Ford's F-150 will soon also be available to have a natural gas engine installed. Combine the two, and the end result could be a real breakthrough for the industry.

Built for performance

Aluminum has always been an important material for the automotive industry. It's already used to make engines and wheels, but today's advanced aluminum alloys are increasingly being considered for other areas such as the hood, trunk, and doors. In fact, Tesla's (NASDAQ: TSLA ) groundbreaking and award-winning Model S credits its all-aluminum body for its remarkable performance.

Ford is rumored to be on the verge of joining Tesla in taking its truck to the next level of performance by replacing its steel body with aluminum. The bold move would not only cut its weight to improve its gas mileage, but it would also improve the truck's overall performance. That's because lighter-weight aluminum enables vehicles to brake and accelerate more quickly -- all with better handling.

Fuel of the future

Ford's innovations don't end with aluminum. The company recently announced that its F-150 will soon be available with a natural gas engine designed by Westport Innovations (NASDAQ: WPRT ) . While it won't be available until the first quarter of next year, the addition of the Westport WiNG Power System to its fleet will make it the only full-size pickup that can come prepped from the factory for natural gas. The move really boosts the options for customers, as they will soon have the opportunity to purchase a new truck that's powered by a next-generation fuel.

Not only is natural gas 50% to 80% cheaper than regular gasoline, but it's also up to 90% cleaner. That's a true win-win situation for both customers and the environment. Finally, while electric vehicles such as Tesla's are clearly the future, given the performance requirements of most F-150 customers, the industry has a long way to go before it can offer customers a comparable truck powered by electricity, meaning natural gas is the only real option for the medium term.

What this means for both consumers and investors
The potential of combining the performance gains from aluminum with the economic and environmental benefits of natural gas could truly be a game-changing move by Ford. These moves could make the F-150 the gold standard when it comes to owning an environmentally responsible truck. When looking at that potential, Ford truly could be building the greatest truck of our generation. That means Ford's stock could prove to be quite a rewarding long-term investment.

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So, is Ford about to build the greatest truck ever? They've been number one in pick up sales for 36 straight years and I doubt they intend to give up the sales crown any time soon. Here's my thought, if Ford delivers this vehicle, some lower volume pickup truck manufacturers will be forced to fold their tent.

I do like ford trucks, but a natural gas engine might be difficult to find fuel for no?

I can appreciate that Ford is delivering new technology,

but I believe Ford is notorious for delivering an untested and unproven vehicle to the masses and let them shake out the problems. I think the ecoline V6 is an example of that.

If I wanted that truck, I would wait for it to be in production at least 4 years

(and I have a Ford F150 now, btw)

all well and good --- if you can get by with a half-ton....

there's actually a station around the corner here.

There are a couple stations by my work but have no clue on the general availability. I imagine it would be scarce in rural areas?

I wonder if they would be designed to burn LP as an alternative fuel in places that NG wasn't available?

Also.... If you had natural gas at your home for your furnace and appliances...

Could you fill your truck at home?

Just back up to your neighbors BBQ and fill up!

An Aluminum body? Even the Brits and Italians gave up on that idiotic idea and on a truck? It will look like crap in six months with that thin skin.

Dual fuel is the way to go until there are sufficient NG fueling stations.

Or a home compressor system that will take NG from your domestic supply and compress it enough to fuel your truck overnight.

Dave,
Have you seen the tuscany edition of the F150's?
They're sexy.
Also I really like their black ops edition too. Wow!!

If it has a towing capacity of 5000 lbs or so, then it'll serve 90% of truck purchasers.

NG is a huge fuel source.

now that would be cool.

Aluminum alloy....we ain't Brit or Italian

The panels will be plastic. The great thing is that in a couple years , you won't even need a jack to change a tire.

My BIL, mechanic that has his own shop, has a contract? with a contractor that runs the natural gas trucks. Last year he told me they were having some reoccurring problems with the fuel system. I asked him about it the other day and he said they had the problem worked out and the trucks were running ok. These trucks are used in the oilfield so you can just imagine the type of use they get.

Last year, there was only two places to get fuel for the trucks, one in BR and one somewhere around Ruston, but by now I imagine there are other places.

Next time I talk to him, I'll ask what other problems he is seeing.

Yup,

The systems were offered YEARS ago up in Alberta,......your own "Station". Slow fill, vehicle parked overnight, very low power draw.

Today,.....as we speak, a neighbor with domestic MG is using the little compressors that were powered by McCollouch 2 strokes, used to pressure up WW2 flame throwers. He's got em' driven by 110 AC motors.

GTC

I haven't seen either of those but I'll google fu it.


Yep, that's bad ass

I work in the natural gas industry. Problem is we are having a hard time getting the service stations to install the natural gas filling stations. These stations require a compressor and compressed gas storage tanks. Space is one problem. The Big Oil stations are another. They do not want to install them. The American Gas Association (natural gas association) is trying to get stations installed every 100 miles or so along the interstate system. Normally right now only utilities or fleets have natural gas, and they own their own stations and do not sell to the public. These Ford trucks will be bought by utilities who are into natural gas. Gas companies, postal delivery trucks, UPS, phone company, etc. It actually pays out for these companies if they have 20-25 vehicles. Fuel costs saved pays for the conversion and compressor stations. Natural gas equivelant energy costs vs gasoline or diesel is about $1.84 a gallon. Once fleets are firmly established it is a matter of time for other vehicles.

Our marketing personell get Honda Civics for their vehicles and they are natural gas powered. Honda sells a slow fill compressor about the size of a water heater to slow fill their cars overnight or you can quick fill at our station. It gets about 150 miles on a fill range and can be filled in 15 minutes at a quick fill station.

We have an F-250 combo diesel/natural gas truck that when blended gets 36 mpg diesel.

Advantages: Cleaner, about 60% less carbon into the atmosphere, cheaper, all American produced, about a 200 year supply HERE. Not imported fuel so money stays in America. It actually helps the engines last longer also. Less fouling. Dedicated vehicles do not need a catylitic converter.

Disadvantages: Only one major one, getting the compressors installed at fuel supply stations. Natural gas is not available in some rural and remote areas, especially in the west. However, new pipelines can be installed along the interstates and US highways to supply fueling stations. (more work for americans).

Demand pushes innovation and capitalism....this is much stronger than electric.

Our HEB grocery store has an electric charge station and I've never seen a car there.

Very interesting.

It is interesting, but time will tell. I don't blame the station owners for not wanting to spend the $$$ though. Would you spend $100,000+ to make 6-8cts/gallon? I'm also curious as to the fuel economy vs gasoline and if it's worth it.

Fine for airplanes but for trucks? pass,

Aluminum huh? Can't imagine what the outcome would be if you were to hit another vehicle, say a semi, bus or non-aluminum bodied pickup. So what kind of mileage would something like this get?

the bed will be aluminum for all F-150s. Frames for all F-Series pickups will be made of steel.

I've heard about this before but I think there is some confusion over what will be aluminum and what will be steel.

15min to fill the tank at a "quick" fill? That jibes with what I read a few months ago in the paper here. The local energy company is allowing people to fill up at their compressor station in Afton, but it takes a while. They will loan you a vehicle if you're in a hurry.

Filling up at home isn't going to be allowed for long. There is no way to collect road taxes if you fill up from your home line.

When/if NG starts to take a significant market share oil prices will react downward. Middle East/Venezuela etc become less important. No more market fear tactics when N. Korea breaks wind or crazy Islamists kill more of each other. As far as road taxes go it won't be as easy as marking farm diesel but you can bet the tax czars will figure out a way.

Now THERE is a great spot for a tax break that could pay great dividends.

Natural Gas is a �natural� for route trucks and buses or other local vehicles that can use the same station to refuel.

Australia has been using natural gas (LPG) since the 70's. The taxi's and buses always use it and many cars have the tanks designed in or added.
When it was introduced, the cost of the gas was about 20% that of petrol. "was", being the operative word.

It is not new technology, the US is way behind in a lot of areas.

Ford has never been a great truck and never will be.

Thanks for the chuckle bea, that was a good one.

FORD = Found on the road dead

FORD = Fix and repair daily

1911's suck.

The .30-06 is obsolete.




This list could get long.

They may not be great trucks, but they beat the he!! out of anything Government Motors makes...

if you want a work truck!

If you want a city driver...

Ford = Leupold.

our buddy ford........Ford's cooperation with the Nazis continued until at least August 1942-eight months after the United States entered the war-through its properties in Vichy France. Indeed, a secret wartime report prepared by the US Treasury Department concluded that the Ford family sought to further its business interests by encouraging Ford of France executives to work with German officials overseeing the occupation. "There would seem to be at least a tacit acceptance by [Henry Ford's son] Mr. Edsel Ford of the reliance...on the known neutrality of the Ford family as a basis of receipt of favors from the German Reich," it says.

The new information about Ford's World War II role comes at a time of growing attention to corporate collaboration with the Third Reich. In 1998 Swiss banks reached a settlement with Holocaust survivors and agreed to pay $ 1.25 billion. That set the stage for a host of new Holocaust-related revelations as well as legal claims stemming from such issues as looted art and unpaid insurance benefits. This past November NBC News reported that Chase Manhattan's French branch froze Jewish accounts at the request of German occupation authorities. Chase's Paris branch manager, Carlos Niedermann, worked closely with German officials and approved loans to finance war production for the Nazi Army. In Germany the government and about fifty firms that employed slave and forced labor during World War II-including Bayer, BMW, Volkswagen and Daimler-Chrysler-reached agreement in mid-December to establish a $5.1 billion fund to pay victims

First
On
Race
Day

Yes..

"Not only is natural gas 50% to 80% cheaper than regular gasoline, " ---- for now. But what will the freakin' states charge for road taxes??? You can bet they'll look at this as another GREAT source of revenue..

It was indeed!!

Local farmers in the area say, "if ya wanna look purdy, buy GM. If ya wanna PULL anything, buy the Ford.."


Reminds me - I'm almost outta popcorn.. Thanks for the reminder.

You can do better than that can't you? The last one my dad had before this one, a 2001 F150 Crew, had 330,000 on it before he sold it. Replaced the rear end, and alternator, and brakes. Yeah, they suck.

or Driver- Returns- On- Foot

And as demand increases for Nat Gas, the higher it will go.....

But NG doesn't need the refining petro does....

Let's just [bleep] all attempts at progress and bich about what we've already got.

My '98 Ranger was a POS. It needed the rear end rebuilt,a new transfer case,and multiple sets of shocks before 30K miles. No way I was keeping that thing past the 36K mile warranty.

For every great rig a manufacturer sends down the line,a POS can be right behind it.

Yea! What he said!

+1 !

Get a rope!

Lol!

Yeah, and that ain't all!! Uncle Bea spelled FARD...
Fix And Repair Daily!

Now what do we do?!

145k on a 88 Bronco II
192k on a 92 F150
145k on a 97 F150 (first year of that model)
155k on a 04 F150 and still going... (also first year of that model)

Yeah I am interested, and have generally been pleased with Fords. Maybe in another 2-3 years I'll bite the bullet and go for one of those fancy alloy bodies, if they aren't stupidly expensive. I'll have over 10 years on that 04, by then. The next one I may put 20 years on it, considering the cost of replacement.

In case anyone's not noticed, the current steel bodies are easily dented, so I hope Ford is smart enough not to make any further compromises in that regard.

CNG is indeed logical for route vehicles, but for a general purpose vehicle, that sometimes goes way out in the boonies, it may be impractical.

And I'm wondering what this new wonder truck will cost. if I'll ever buy a pickup that ever cost more than $100k

Boy, isn't that the truth!

No!

Everything made after about 1954 is relatively easy to dent. lol!

They have had 100+ years to do it right and so far haven't.

Biggest problem with aluminum bodies is the fatigue around the welds. I predict the same thing will happen as happens with aluminum framed stock trailers.

Ford should just make a Ranger, with a diesel. Or at least put a diesel in the F150.

I was talking to Boy.

They used to make the Courier with a diesel; a little 2.0 that regularly got 50 mpg.. I sold a bunch of 'em during my sales stint with Ford in '83/'84.

They were offered in the Tempo/Topaz line also.. Sold a bunch of those too..

^^^ THIS ^^^

On the highway and the city they are Ok.

Not built for the pasture.

But then....an F-150 is a half ton truck. If you want a real pickup, one needs to graduate to at least a 3/4 ton.

Yep

That's why you rivet rather than weld.

Age old debate amongst fishing boat owners. The old school riveted boat guys will point to aviation construction.

Its fix or repair daily. Typical smart chevy owner......

Saturn had the best body on a Motor Vehicle.

Yep, I bet the insurance rates will be really nice. Like Jorge said, been tried before with little success.

Maybe they will do something different.

I don't think the rest of the truck world is quaking in their shoes over an aluminum truck with an Natural gas engine...

When I try to think of a plastic body on a truck all I can think of is all of the duallies I meet on the road with busted dually flares.

Especially up north where cold and plastic do not go well together.

Maybe they can make one out of wood.

Laffin

it's been done.

wood bed on a pickup beats the hell out of metal

I second that motion GM sucks and uses the public to test new idea's. Cheers NC

They might as well contine on with tradition.

FORD= Found On Reservation Dump.


FWIW The f150 has had an aluminum hood now for 10 years...

I haven't read the article, but I'm guessing that if
ford can build a truck That weighs 700 lbs less and runs well on LNG, they'll have a winner.
And the metallurgy and engineering are out there to do it...

FORD = First On Race Day

Dave,

NSP has been running their trucks back there for years on Natural Gas.. from some of the pics of your place back there, just wouldn't a large propane tank by the garage and hook ups to fill the truck be pretty easy?

don't know if it is that simple, but it is not like that there is a shortage of homes in the Upper Midwest with a big white torpedo sitting somewhere on the property? at least rural MN....

Lord knows in the early 80s how many full size GM cars with Diesels were sold back there in rural areas and spent their entire lives running on 'Tractor Fuel" as I grew up calling Diesel....

Around here there are tons of stations that have propane available... mainly to fill camper tanks etc....

I am surprised a lot of the gear heads out this way don't run their classic hot rods on propane, like they did when I live down by the Cities...

I was 'talking' to the question!!

You can't expect any vehicle to survive when you use it for off-road racing and demolition derbies.

When at the top of your post it says, "re Bulletbutt", I get giddy and think that's for me. I love the attention and get carried away sometimes. Once I figure out people are talking to someone else and addressing it to me, I'm ok again. Carry on.

I'm mostly always talking to myself, but I will interact with others when they mistakenly think I'm talking to them.

MOPAR or no car.

yeah but.... these are trucks.

Years ago a lady told me she talked to herself alot because that was the only way she could carry on an intelligent conversation. I never knew if she was talking about me or not, so I guessed she was, and dumped her for one of those happy, dumb ones with big...eyes...

LMAO!!!



good signature material there!

Semantics, semantics...

'bout time,they only been trying for 60+ years..Chevy did it first!

OK, guys, the $1.84 EQUIVELANT is what natural gas costs vs Gasoline. It INCLUDES the equivelant highway taxes. My company pays something like $200 per vehicle per year for alternative fuel use in leu of per gallon tax on gasoline. This is figured in the cost of the gas. Natural gas has recently passed coal in production of electricity because of environmental reasons. It can cover 25% of vehicle use just in fleet vehicles only which would cut half the imported oil. We are fighting an uphill battle just to get compressor stations installed for quick fills. The oil companies don't want this at their stations. A quick fill station would cost about $100,000 to take street gas and compress it enough to fill vehicles. It is already being done at most natural gas companies, a lot of phone companies, a lot of garbage trucks, city busses, etc. The compressors are there, and sometimes the gas companies will help with the costs and there are tax credits also. It is just that oil companies are making money drilling and selling crude oil, making money transporting the oil or refined gasoline or diesel across country, and making money selling it at their local stations. They can't make as much buying the gas from the local utility, compressing it and reselling it. Not across the board. Feds aren't helping. Current crop of libs want electric cars. Technology just isn't there for quick charges. It is for natural. Problem is also, even with a quick fill station that we have, we can't fill but 4 vehicles at a time. We have about 25 vehicles. There are far more gasoline pumps available everywhere.

I heard that ford is also coming out with heated tailgates on their trucks for those who live in colder climates. That way you can keep your hands warm while pushing it.

was that not the (1.84) gasoline price down there BEFORE zero took the kings royal chair????

Oh, that was funny! And I drive only Fords.

There were two electric charging stations at the Muir Woods Park in CA. I went there on vacation in June, among other places. They were free to the public, but I never saw any vehicles charging on them.

I hope they don't go flimsy with the tailgate. The steel ones on trucks now and days are already flimsy enough. I just replaced the one on my Duramax.

When I worked at the Fannie Mae backup server facility in Maryland the entire front row of parking was reserved for electric vehicles. I never saw one on the charger. That was in 2005.

Unless it has Toyota in the name, no way could it be a good truck. By the way, Ford, brought to you by Mexico and Canada.

Not in these United States, it hasn't. Not even close...

You might want to amend your "statement", as the Ford Truck Plant in Louisville makes all the Super Duty trucks............you know where Louisville is, right up the road from TN..................

Same over here. Virtually all major petrol stations have one or more LPG pumps, and they don't take any longer to fill up a tank than the petrol pump.

Due Government tax incentives, LPG is currently about 30% cheaper than petrol, but I doubt that differential will remain.

Performance wise, at least on paper, petrol offers a bit more power, but having driven in duel fuel cars, I couldn't see any difference.

Older cars with simpler petrol engines tend to be easier to convert. After market conversions on modern cars can be problematic due to their engine management systems not recognizing the different emissions..

All in all, LPG is now a mature technology and from an engineering perspective, there is no reason not to use it..

I was looking at one of the new 40% made in the USA 52% made in Mexico GMC Trucks Saturday night!!! When I opened the door, it smelled like Burritos and Refried Beans.

GM Welding Breakthrough Enables More Use of Aluminum
Increased use of lightweight metal can help improve fuel economy, performance
2012-09-24

DETROIT � General Motors Research & Development has invented an industry-first aluminum welding technology expected to enable more use of the lightweight metal on future vehicles, which can help improve fuel economy and driving performance.

GM�s new resistance spot welding process uses a patented multi-ring domed electrode that does what smooth electrodes are unreliable at doing � welding aluminum to aluminum. By using this process GM expects to eliminate nearly two pounds of rivets from aluminum body parts such as hoods, liftgates and doors.

GM already uses this patented process on the hood of the Cadillac CTS-V and the liftgate of the hybrid versions of Chevrolet Tahoe and GMC Yukon. GM plans to use this technology more extensively starting in 2013.

�The ability to weld aluminum body structures and closures in such a robust fashion will give GM a unique manufacturing advantage,� said Jon Lauckner, GM chief technology officer and vice president of Global R&D.

�This new technology solves the long-standing problem of spot welding aluminum, which is how all manufacturers have welded steel parts together for decades,� Lauckner said. �It is an important step forward that will grow in importance as we increase the use of aluminum in our cars, trucks and crossovers over the next several years.�

Spot welding uses two opposing electrode pincers to compress and fuse pieces of metal together, using an electrical current to create intense heat to form a weld. The process is inexpensive, fast and reliable, but until now, not robust for use on aluminum in today�s manufacturing environment. GM�s new welding technique works on sheet, extruded and cast aluminum because GM�s proprietary multi-ring domed electrode head disrupts the oxide on aluminum�s surface to enable a stronger weld.

Historically, automakers have used self-piercing rivets to join aluminum body parts, because of variability in production with conventional resistance spot welding. However, rivets add cost and riveting guns have a limited range of joint configurations. In addition, end-of-life recycling of aluminum parts containing rivets is more complex.

�No other automaker is spot-welding aluminum body structures to the extent we are planning to, and this technology will allow us to do so at low cost,� said Blair Carlson, GM manufacturing systems research lab group manager. �We also intend to consider licensing the technology for non-GM production in automotive, heavy truck, rail and aerospace applications.�

According to Ducker Worldwide, a Michigan-based market research firm, aluminum use in vehicles is expected to double by 2025. The material offers many advantages over steel. One kilogram of aluminum can replace two kilograms of steel. It is corrosion-resistant and offers an excellent blend of strength and low mass that can help improve fuel economy and performance.

According to AluminumTransportation.org, a 5 percent to 7 percent fuel savings can be realized for every 10 percent weight reduction, and substituting lightweight aluminum for a heavier material is one way to do it. Cars made lighter with aluminum also can accelerate faster and brake quicker than their heavier counterparts.

�GM aims to be an industry leader in mass efficiency,� said Roger Clark, manager of the GM Energy Center. �Many little things can add up to big improvements in fuel economy. Incremental mass reductions, like using welds instead of rivets, can help our customers save at the pump.�

The NCDOT has had dual fuel trucks for at least 15 years, they work fine. As far as aluminum bodies go look at all of those $80,000 Audis.

Here is an interesting video of making aluminum cars. Trucks they are not, but apparently for these cars, somethings are glued, some welded, and some riveted.

Pretty impressive robots and not too many employees to make one of these.

What's the mpg for the CNG vehicles?

Also, this could be a huge money maker for you Dixie. Since the vast majority of gas stations/convenience stores are not owned by big oil, but instead by sole proprietors or private companies, you can invest what, say $500,000 minimum to put one of these CNG stations in. At 6-8cts/gallon net profit, tell us what kind of return you can expect?

With this new Ford if you run out of fuel , just have all your hunting buddies fart in the tank.

FORD

[bleep]
Over
Rebuilt
Dodge

I have never driven a vehicle powered by natural gas, but that being said, I have driven a few powered by propane.

They were all considerable underpowered compared to running on gas.

One was a GM pickup with a 350 CID engine. Had the power of a VW Beetle.

Is there a huge loss of horsepower with the CNG vehicles?

It amazes me that some will whine about importing oil with one breath, and bitch and complain about a potential alternative that could be 100% USA made.

I don't own a Ford. But you cannot argue that Ford has really been on the right track since Alan Mulally took over. They are making some really dependable vehicles these days, and they didn't have to get bailed out.

You bet your ass I'll give one a long hard look the next time I want to buy a vehicle. We should all at least give them props for trying to find a solution to foreign oil without trying to shove electric shoeboxes down out throats.

Wow and here I thought that the energy, I mean oil, companies were developing gas as well?

http://www.exxonmobil.com/Corporate/energy_outlook_sup_gas.aspx

Not to hi-jack this thread but here's some info from 2012 about the Ford/Westport combined technology for the F-250/F-350 series that run on either CNG or gasoline.

http://www.westport.com/news/2012/w...s-rolls-out-at-ntea-show-in-indianapolis

The f150 is not a truck.

The f150 is a "pickup".

Got that?

F250 and f350 are trucks. I can haul 1/2 a ton in my car.

Where's Logcutter?

Ok, when do we get to read the punch line to the joke?

When Audi introduced the A-8 sedan, they established 8 specialized body shops in the US that could handle the repair of aluminum monocoque construction (only 8!). If you were involved in an accident that damaged the body structure (not fenders or door panels), the car had to be shipped to one of these repair centers for repair. It might take a month for the car to return and the insurance companies were NOT thrilled at the expense!

Standard F250 and F350s are pickups too as far as I am concerned.

Trucks start out at about the F450/Dodge 4500 area and really take off when you get about to the F800 dump truck level.

I read an article a while back that GE was working on making a home refueling station for ~$500. It wouldn't be a fast refueling station, but it would work for commuting.

The oil companies are producing LOTS of gas right now. Some of them don't even want to because the price of NG is low. Of course they are producing oil, and want to produce more of it, but in the majority of wells, NG is coincidental to the oil. There are lots of areas that contain MOSTLY NG that are not being drilled right now because the cost to bring a well into production is not as profitable as oil.

Oil is definitely the game right now, but the oil companies are struggling with what to do with the NG. Could be, they will add fill stations if demand as a MV fuel increases.

There is a good chance it will become more popular as a motor vehicle fuel, and demand will rise. If it does, you can bet a national company like say WalMart for example will add a fill station to the thousands of stores throughout the U.S. When they do, they can kinda charge a premium to recoup costs of the installation on the fill station.

Remember when diesel was so much cheaper than gasoline, and everyone thought it was a good idea to get a pickup that burns diesel? If you get a NG vehicle, enjoy the "cheap" while you can. Eventually it will play catch-up.

Funny what everybody thinks they know. Most all of your over the road trucks are made of aluminum. All those old Pete's and Kw's have aluminum cabs and sleepers. They seem to hold up pretty good. If you call a couple million miles good. They are now going to a lot of plastic and other exotic materials like laminated balsa floors in the KW T2000's and T700's. Most panels are now glued on the newer models like the T700 and T680's. Older styles are still aluminum and huck bolted though. So I would think that if it works on the big rigs what we can dish out in a F150 wont be a problem.

Everyone has their opinion on where "Trucks" start and "Pick-ups" end.

Most of the manufacturers call them all "Trucks" now, and have for awhile.

The Government regulations and CAFE (Corporate Avg. Fuel Economy) end at 8500 GVWR and above.
What CAFE is in a nutshell, is the govt. has standards and regulations of what a motor vehicle manufacturer score as avg. MPG of all passenger vehicles they sell... Say the govt. reg. says they all have to have a CAFE of 19 MPG on 2013 models...

The "heavy duty" trucks that are over 8500 GVWR are exempt from this regulation. That is why on the window sticker of a 3/4 ton and above, there are no govt. mileage comparison ratings displayed.

So, for all practical purposes, "Trucks" start at 3/4 ton and above.

http://www.pickensplan.com/ngv/

Much hype about nothing really. Ford has had commercial truck running on propane for an long time, and an aluminum is an poor choice for an body skin.

Long time ago Ford alread had poly body panels and I believe they were an soy based product. Henry Ford has an film of him hitting an fender with an sledgehammer and it just bounces off. That was an long time ago.

Why the heck can we have Glocks, XD, M&P, and HK pistols that have polmyer frames and can go to hell and back, yet the same weight saving tech cannot be applied to auto bodies. Polymyer would be an LOT less expensive than aluminum and the parts on an vehicle could be modular and snap and bolt on.

The auto industry is backward thinking and really not much progress and innovation is taking place. Poly bodies panels would not corrode and repairs would be easy and one can also have weight savings. Maybe Gaston Glock should build up an car company.

LOL! When did toyota start to build a truck? A toyota is nothing more than a sorry little grocery getting, mall shopping POS.

By the way, toyota is brought to you by Japan.

My Super Duty came from Louisville, KY. USA.

Ford built the Sterling gravel truck avail with a alum cab and doors ,fiberglass hood ,stands up pretty well ,but don't have an accident with it unless they replace parts that are alum.

been out for 11-12 years now


norm

Hardly.


Toyota Landcruiser

Fords are considered to be towny toys that do not stand up to abuse...there are several in town that are diesel and they are owned by posers that do not go off the bitumen...oh wait, you don't get the diesel Fords...or diesel Landcruisers...or any or the other big diesels on offer.

Must really SUCK to be so uninformed!

Now that I have that bile and spite out of my system...why is it that you fellows do not have more diesel 4x4's?

Opinions from Ford F150 owners on the 5.0L "Coyote" V8

http://www.f150forum.com/f4/2013-f-150-xl-5-0-driving-impressions-221968/

Well I'd take the "sorry little grocery getting, mall shopping POS" from Toyota over the same garbage from Ford, GM, and Ram.

We in fact have lots of diesel 4x4's. The issue is we can not get them in hardly anything smaller than 3/4 ton.

Not sure of the reason why? I often hear people blame California's strict emission regs. I have no clue if that is true but doubt it is the sole reason. I would guess it to be a mix of politics on several levels and manufactures believing the market too small.

Now, now, don't go making the natives restless!
Next you will be mentioning Toyota's old 2.8L diesel engine, the one that clocks up about a million miles before needing a rebuild!

LN106...the old 2.8's around here are still going strong, and the last of the front solid axles made in '97 are very much sought after...as are the old base model Suzuki's which the farmers use for the irrigation and wet weather, they are also very good for idling around the rice bays shooting ducks.

Funny, but quite a few company's that produced 2.4L diesels had problems with them, with Toyota and Mitsubishi springing to mind.

However, the 2.8L diesels all seemed to be very good to excellent ..That Toyota, but also the Isuzu, Daihatsu F70, even the one used by Iveco in many of its light trucks..

Its only a shame that new emission regulations and clueless consumers who wanted diesel engines that performed like petrol engines resulted in the demise of the various 2.8's

The 2.4 was a dream compared to the 2.2, I am still waiting for the fellow that was coming up to visit in 1983...he was driving a 2.2!

The new diesels are very nice to drive but I would not want to break down in the middle of nowhere in one...at least I can get home with an old 2.8.

I would like to get an old Ford F100 in 4x4 and put a V8 diesel in it, they are wide enough to travel well in the paddock...and you can walk around the engine whilst it is in the vehicle instead of pulling the rotten thing apart to get at anything.

I had an F250 like that with the straight 6. I actually climbed in and closed the hood. It was a '55. That truck taught me a lot - most important of which was - leave the old trucks to guys like Dave until I have money like Leno and afford a full time professional or three to take care of them.

No one answer really. A lot of pickups and sport utility vehicles sold to suburbanites that pull light loads infrequently and maybe haul leaves or grass clippings to the yard waste site once in a while. In general, these people don't have a tolerance for the rattles and smell of the diesel, or the added expense. Until fairly recently, gas was pretty cheap stateside, so it took a long time to pay back the diesel option. Most people who bought diesels put on lots of miles, or pulled with them. And gas engines have come a long ways.

A good diesel can put on hundreds of thousands of miles before needing an overhaul, but most modern gas engines are good for at least a quarter million miles if you take care of them, and so much salt is used in many of the northern states, that the truck has rusted out around the engine by then anyway.

There weren't many domestic diesels made over here until the late seventies, and many of them sucked. The GM 5.7 and it's 6 cylinder counterpart were gutless and had reliability problems. The 6.2 and 6.5 that replaced it weren't much better. GM's first decent diesel for light trucks was the duramax. (GM is the worst case here diesel wise). Diesel's had built up a bit of a bad rap before they got it right. And the EPA is pretty hard on diesels, and is becoming moreso.

My Grandmother had new one in the '70's, she was a shearers cook in central Queensland and drove that vehicle through flood waters, gibber plains and drought whilst carting shearers, wool press', and stores.

I still have a strong picture of that Ford with the wood tray and the 44 gallon drum of petrol in the back coming down the street whilst I sat in the gutter at 141 Emu St in Longreach.

I've towed more and hauled more with my Super Duty than that little thing ever could. That little POS couldn't handle the snowplow that my Super Duty carries with ease.

As far as a diesel, I'm more than familiar with them. So much more that your remark makes me laugh at your ignorance.

It must really suck to be so uninformed and like a sissy mall shopping excuse for truck.

An F100 would not be my cup of tea, but would love on old Hilux, or Land Cruiser 11..Trouble over here is that a lot of salt is put of the roads in winter, so any vehicle from the 1990's or before is likely to be a rust bucket..

Do you still see many of the old Subaru 1800L pick-ups over there?

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Yes, you are definitely some sort of dill.

Goodbye.

There are still a few getting around, but parts are a problem...as is the front wheel drive when encountering gravel.
A lot of them where tipped over on the gravel roads.

I just had a customer come in that is driving his 50 yo Ford ute that he purchased from the original purchaser when the vehicle was 10 yo, and he has been driving it since...it still has the original paper work in the glove box and original number plates on it.

I am the last on a very long list that have put my name down for it.

That looks like a sweet little pickup. Kinda looks like a cross between a side by side ATV and a full-size pickup.

It would be handy for fencing and driving around off-road but too small for actual pulling or hauling.

F350's are pretty much the 'standard' work pickup over here.

Our EPA has their heads to far up their asses to realize the benefit(s) of the rest of the worlds diesels

Well walt that's a great idea how much is the sticker going to shock you and how much of it will really be built in the good ole USA?

Little?

Note: Kerb, tare & payload weights are nominal and will vary depending on options and tray/body type. Gross Vehicle Mass (GVM) is the total permissible combined weight of the vehicle, including occupants, fuel and cargo.
Weights - Kerb weight (kg) 2065 .

- Gross Vehicle Mass (kg) Gross Vehicle Mass (GVM)Gross Vehicle Mass (GVM): is the total permissible combined weight of the vehicle, including occupants, fuel and cargo.
3300 .

- Gross trailer weight braked (kg) 3500 .

- Gross trailer weight unbraked (kg) 750

If you click on the link you will see it also carries 180 litres of fuel.

Diesel fuel is 10% more than regular gas here. It makes no sense to own one if you don't tow/haul more than a bass boat or a sheet of plywood.

I would snatch up a half ton Chevy with a 5 liter duramax in a heartbeat, pun intended.

Around here it is a real oddity to see a paddock vehicle in petrol, there are a few soft-roaders that the townies use, as well as most cars.

Diesel pretty much has the market for work vehicles here.

For our American friends 1Kg = 2.2lb, so the Gross Breaked Trailer weight on the Land Cruiser is around 7700lb and 180L tank is around 45 US gallons..

Yeah, I'd say 'little' applies quite well..

Compare to the F-350: Weighs 8600 wet, GVW of 13,000# and is rated to pull 22,500#.. Oh, and it holds 38 gallons of fuel..

That Toyota is cute though..

If trucks/autos ran on water, we'd pay the same as fuel. Natural gas eventually will not be any cheaper than fuel. We seen this same scenario w/diesel fuel.

When I put diesels in my 31 Bertram charter boat many years ago, my buddies were buying bulk, off road diesel for refueling from their dockside tanks for under $.50/gallon. By the time I bought my first diesel Dodge 3/4 pickup a couple of years later, diesel was still a tiny bit cheaper than gasoline, but economy and longevity were much better. At my second diesel truck purchase, diesel fuel was quite a bit more costly than regular gasoline. Therefore, it is MY fault that diesel costs more! Me and all the other guys who bought diesel trucks and drove the DEMAND up, as the pump fuel cost has less to do with oil supplies or refining costs, but more what the market will bear. I would expect the same thing to happen with Natural Gas if it becomes popular as a vehicle fuel.

Propane was fairly popular for farm and commercial vehicles in Texas many years ago, using easily converted gasoline engines. It was cheaper, mileage was better, and the engines lated longer. As has been mentioned, the power from the same engine was much less than with gasoline or diesel, and a larger tank was required to carry enough to run very long. Propane is no longer that inexpensive, as rural residents who use it in their homes know.

We should also remember that LPG (liquified petroleum gas, such as butane and propane) and LNG (liquified natural gas) are not the same thing. The process used to compress both are similar, but LPG is a refining by-product, natural gas is a drilling product. Also, oil companies are unlikely to be "against" LNG, and certainly wouldn't be buying it from utility companies, because they produce both LPG and LNG, and sell it to the utility companies!

I dont have time too look at the numbers, but if memory serves me correct, that cute little Toyota would rate just below a half ton pickup here. Perfect for your weekender crowd that pulls a bushel of leaves to the dump once a year and a jet ski to the lake twice. Some creative marketing and you would have a good seller with the wannabe truck owner crowd (of which we have a lot of these days).

I love my F250.

Not sure how your ratings work eactly, but the Land Cruiser is a heavier duty beasty than say the Hilux or Tundra. I would consider those "recreational vehicles" where as the Land Cruiser is definately a commercial vehicle, if that makes sense.

Land Cruiser's of one sort or another are pretty much the vehicle of choice for the various NGO's, the UN and other such agency's when they need a tough vehicle for the Third World..Nissan Patrols are also somewhat popular, but are generally not considered as good a vehicle as the Land Cruiser..

Not sure about the Ford pick-ups, but I get the impression you don't tend to see them much outside the US? Are they exported in any great numbers?

Regards,

Peter

The thing is American trucks are built for use on paved roads, I doubt 10% of them ever make it off pavement and then only occasionally.

If you go to parts of the world where trucks may never see pavement, the Toyota Landcruiser and Hilux is the truck of choice.

I've driven Fords in the oil fields where they live their lives on gravel roads and they are shook loose by 80k on the odometer.

I would give it try. A major stumbling block to keeping a truck long term here is that they rust apart in less than ten years.

My Toyota is UAW made in Texas... And will be running when that POS ford has rattled itself apart.

CNG is about the best short term alternative there is, until something else becomes viable. That will take decades, minimum. Gotta start very slow near larger metro areas & let demand slowly spread out the infrastructure, as consumers, or lack of, allows/prohibits. Keep any .gov mandates out of it & let the market decide. Choices are good.

Already been built. . . . . called a "Tundra"

and your mini-van.

We actually use our F350's quite a bit off pavement, pulling horse trailers and hauling round bales. No doubt the Toyota would be a better off-road pickup if you weren't pulling or hauling.

I have yet to see a Toyota that could lug 5-6 horses and a 20' gooseneck up some rutted up cow trail that passes for a road.

Most people have a 'heavy' work pickup and use an ATV of some kind for bombing around off-road.


You are correct on one thing, 100k miles is about the max before the pickup needs to be replaced.

Quite a bit of difference between farm 100K and road 100K, but you know that. I don't imagine there is a rig around that won't rattle after 80-100K of farm and logging road use.

Absolutely..

The farmer I work part-time for had a Chev PU for about ten years - and it went through hell on the farm.. But it couldn't pull anything much heavier than a bale wagon. It's still there, but they bought an F-250 (gas) to use as another farm truck. And that one's going through hell too - but it's (so far) still pretty tight compared to the Chev.. IMHO, farmers are among the hardest users of any pickup truck..

It's all relative - one way or the other; each has it's strong points and weak points.. But I'd love to see some Toyota pull this: (41', 18K GTW and 3700# on the pin)




But to the OP's original post - Maybe the aluminum bit would work - but it's not something I'm going to try first...

You remind me of the idiots around here that drive a Harley because it's "American Iron" and at the same time degrade the Japanese bikes because they aren't American iron. Then the big, bad Harley rider jumps into their Japanese POS car/truck and bitches about American made cars/trucks.

A Jap "truck" is still a Jap "truck" no matter where it's built, or who builds it. To think otherwise is just plain foolishness.

BTW, your little POS toyota can't begin to work like a Super Duty. So go to the mall, ride around the parking lot and tell everyone about your big off road shopping adventures.

So an American truck is an American truck even if it's mostly assebled from parts from Canada and Mexico?

Serious question here, but do theses big Fords still have low ratio gear boxes? Are they permanent 4x4 or selectable 4x4?

If you need to pull heavy trailers on a regular basis, I would definitely go with the F350. Other than that, I would take the Toyota. I'm sure the quality gap has narrowed considerably, but the Toyota's still seem to be of somewhat higher quality,on average. Parts are expensive though, which is a definite downside. had one come into the shop today with a leaking power steering hose that was going to cost probably 3 times what a domestic one would have. On the flip side, the truck had over 300 000km on it, and was still on its original ball joints and steering linkage. Thats pretty much unheard of with the domestics.

I fix the damn things for a living,out here in oil country and I look at it like this. Trucks are kinda like politicians; a hell of alot more the same than they are different.
Somebody has good luck with one brand and bad with another,and thereafter sticks to the brand that treated them well. Don't blame them for it, but it sure doesn't mean chit,all things considered. Every manufacturer puts out POS vehicles and they all put out some pretty good ones. In the end, they all end up in the shop getting repairs.

I look for a vehicle thats easy to work on with a reliable drivetrain, couldn't care less what name they glued on the front of the damn thing.

xxc - I think there is a lot of truth in what you say. But I'll add that I think ANY 2013 truck beats pretty much any pre2000 truck all hollow. They are making amazing machines.

I make mine Fords - and they just plain work.

You fellows are forgetting the old Landrovers, the alloy bodies are all over this land, long after the running gear has rusted away.

That's funny, there are more people in Florida than your whole damn country.

I'm a huge fan of Toyota. Matter of fact, Toyota kept my family fed while growing up.

But when somebody that doesn't know what they're talking about gets a little too zealous about Toyota, I use Sam's quote: "I've yet to see a Tundra haulin' a round bale..."



GFY.


Travis

I could be mistaken, but I don't think Australia is really considered a country.


Travis

Score one for Australia...

Perhaps I am missing something here, but what does population density have to do with new technology?

Pete, no one answered your question. Yes, you can select between 2 wheel drive, 4 wheel drive high and 4 wheel drive low.

Yep, I find it pretty hard to beat an F250 and a minivan. Between the two of them, we have almost everything covered. My buddy has a 2 year old Tacoma. I know, even more of a grocery getter, but what I noticed was that fit and finish was no better than a Ford (or dare I say Che....Ceh....Chevoret...umm something like that!).

Yes...pretty much what I was thinking.

Exactly what I've seen here in our oil patch.

The Superduty has a bigger payload and towing capacity, but I spent a putzing around on 2 tracks in the Seminoes one year. I was riding in a Dakota. We had an F250 superduty and a Taco with us. The taco got around the best. The F250 was worst. It wasn't maneuverable, It was so heavy with the powerstroke that it sunk in the mud. The sharp shale fragments tore the front tires up pretty bad, and the suspension didn't flex. Later in the week, we hauled 2 cow elk out of the mountains in the dakota, which it did just fine. We've done 3 in it, but it's too much. If you need to pull a 20k lb gooseneck, get the superduty. If you want to get around on the 2 tracks, get something smaller.

Dude, I'd take a Toyota(like you have) any day for a hunting pickup. They are good machines, lots of my pals in Bozeman had one and they never bitched about breakdowns.

But c'mon, it's a common known fact that Toyota doesn't build a real pickup...

If I were a farmer, I wouldn't drive one either.

Hahaha! Thems fightin' words in Montana boys!


Travis

Is the Tundra union made?

Damn right cuzzin'...grin


Tuesday back onto the county road.

Wet gumbo can plug up the 'fenders' on a horse trailer and the wheels get real hard to turn. Dad was checking them before we went home.






That Toyota in JStuart's link looked badass, just not practical for alot of stuff.

You're lovin' it.


Travis

I named my junk the 7.3

A lot has to do with specific design parameters, materials, and and quality of work. Riveting a lightweight boat such as Lund-type builds is logical. However, all will eventually leak when used in anything challenging. The way around that with either weld or rivet construction is heavier construction. Of course that kind of defeats the purpose or intent of aluminum in 150s.

yup Canuck land is full of them EH. Well used up here particularly on the gravel and mud.

norm

You remind me of a idiot, that is, well, an idiot!
Of course a 1/2 or smaller truck cant do what 3/4-1 ton truck can do.. But a Toyota also wont fall apart like a big three POS either.
And BTW dirtbag, the Toyota Tundra has a higher american made content than GM, Ford and Dodge trucks.. Do a little research before you open your mouth.

headhunter130-Toyotas rule the roost everywhere in the world where toughness and reliability are paramount. Crawl back into your cave.

For general duty work, most farmers around the UK run either a Landrover Defender (usually a SWB) or one of the Jap mid sized pick-ups.

For moving loads like the trailer above, they revert to a
"cattle lorry" which come in various sizes..

I have only ever seen one trailer like yours on the road over here, so while I guess they are legal, most folks use something that looks like a tractor unit and a small semi for loads like that..

I am going to guess a lot of the differences are driven by the fine detail of our laws, plus the cost of fuel ect

We do get small commercial vehicles in the 3/4 tonne and 1 tonne class, but they are flatbed trucks rather than oversize pick-ups, and they are almost never seen outside the construction industry..

Regards,

Peter

And a fuel source the US is rich in supply.

When I had a motor home here was never a problem finding propane to fill the tank that powered appliances & heat. Campgrounds, RV dealers, & many truck stops offered propane. Many buses & commercial vehicles run off propane now.

The first, ever!


Travis

Here's a video of one of them junk Toyota,s. The truck was gave to a Ranch in TX and used for 100,000 miles off road. The truck regularly towed a 24' trailer loaded with 12 1200# Head of cattle. The only parts replaced 1 battery and the radio in 100,000 miles, junk.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fm2AmIYFlfw

Someone has their little girl panties in a bunch. I can't lower myself to your low level, but the word obtuse is applicable in your case. No sense to discuss economics, trade deficit, etc., because it's obviously over your comprehension level.

The toyota can't do the work of a real truck? What good is it then? Of course, a POS toyota can be used for grocery getting and mall shopping "off road expeditions", but then again, so can a mini-van.

If someone drove to the hamlet that you call home, they'd find your POS toyota truck with obama and pro-gay rights stickers pasted on it, "off roading" in a parking lot.

FYI:
Toyota Corporate Office Headquarters
Toyota Motor Corporation
1, Toyota-cho
Toyota-Shi, ACH 471-8571 Japan
Corporate Phone Number: +81-565-282121
Corporate Fax Number: +81-565-235800

Why is it whenever these comparisons are brought up, the Tundra is often compared to the 3/4 or 1 ton pickups from Chevy, Dodge or Ford? Can't the comparisons be more apples to apples and not apples to oranges?

It is my belief if you take a Tundra with the 5.7 engine and compare it to a like 1/2 ton Chevy, Dodge or Ford they will no doubt hold their own right well. I do know that my Tundra will pull an 8500+ lb. Travel trailer over some pretty high mountain passes faster than the legal speed limit. It would probably pull even heavier loads but why would I want to exceed the legal load limits of it? To me pulling a load heavier than 10,000 lbs is immaterial because I don't own anything like that.

The last time I checked the Ford F-150 was the best selling pickup on the market so I doubt if the majority of Ford truck owners are pulling real heavy loads on sub-par roads.

So your saying a F150, Gmc or Ram 1500 etc are all POS trucks too, because they can't do the work of a "real" truck? The Toyota can certainly do what the 1/2 ton trucks of domestic manufactureres can do.

Not everyone needs a truck to haul cattle or equipment. In fact, the majority don't. All I need to pull with my truck is a couple quads,camping gear and hopefully a moose or elk. I also need it to get me where I'm gojng,which quite often is going to be some pretty rough places. In cases like this, why would I want a big,heavy F350? A 1/2 ton truck is all I need,and is probably better suited to my needs than a 3/4 or 1 ton truck, particularily when going over erough terrrain.

That's right...it is a nasty, nasty, place and you never want to visit.

Apparently, some people disagree with your astute observation regarding toyota "trucks", their ability to be used for work and the F-150.

From heavy construction to road maintenance, Ford F-150 holds a dominant market share position against its light-duty competitors, according to R.L. Polk data. For example, F-150 leads in a variety of fields, including:

62 percent market share in road and highway maintenance
68 percent share in hazardous materials work
67 percent share in the oil pipeline industry

On a sidenote, I have seen 1/2 T Ford, GM and Dodge trucks carrying snowplows in the wintertime. toyota? In a word. NO.

It's always the toyota fan boys that want to compare compare their POS toyotas to the Super Duty series trucks. Why? They are envious.

Says some brand loyal chump...
And I could easily pick apart all the BS you have posted, but its honestly a waste of time with a retard like you!
But for starters compare the resale value of a 2006 Tundra and Tacoma with that of a F-150 and Ranger. I got a hint, it wont even be close.

That's a no brainer.


Travis

BWalker

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You are now on Ignore because you are ignorant.


Go to the mall and tell your fellow buddies more BS tales about your POS excuse for a truck.

Both my Toyotas are unstoppable.


Travis