FBI agent Don Adams on JFK.

The End of Confidence in Government

i knew a businessmen from corpus,he owned most of the land that the south side of town is built on, his name was Grayford Rogers. he leased the Parr ranch in the early 60s. he told us that Oswald was on Parr's ranch, target shooting 2 months before Kennedy was killed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Berham_Parr

I have no doubt of that, Roger. However, the former FBI agent says above that many more than three shots were fired. Most investigations point to at least 4 shots. Only three came from the School Book Depository. Kennedy was hit by FMJ and soft or HP bullets.

Makes sense he was practicing on LBJs buddies (Pharr) place, though.

LBJs mistress outs LBJ on JFK

Bump for truth

After the assassination of JFK all the way to Obamacare, how can we even trust our government to act in our behalf? There are a few lawmakers I do trust but they are local and I can call them up and have a conversation when ever I feel the need. We can't do this at the federal level. That leaves a lot of room for playing around. It's too bad. kwg

House members are often easily swayed by public opinion, visit their districts with frequency and are up for re-election with their brief terms.

They are the closest Federal hand we wage....

Everyone else is probably in politics as a career once they go above being a Rep., and do funny, often illegal things to stay there.

Not sure about all government, but the democrats are definitely infected by an illness called communism.

OMG, what a crock. Our government got it right. It was Oswald and he acted alone. The evidence is overwhelming if you earnestly look at the evidence without any underlying agenda. All the nay sayers are people trying to sell books, magazines, or television shows. They show you whatever controversy they can find, or just blatantly LIE, and conveniently leave out the massive mounds of evidence that points to Oswald being the lone assassin. And at one point, I was with you all...I read a book called "Best Evidence" and it was fantastic. The level of detail this guy went to was astounding; yet he was incapable of believing his own eyes. Again, he was selling something.


All the shots came from above and behind; there was no frontal shot, and for God's sake there was no "magic bullet". Anyone who thinks there was a "magic bullet" is so full of agenda, he can't even notice what's playing out right in front of his own eyes. Watch the film, Connelly was turned in such a way, that all the wounds could be easily accounted for; and they could have only come from above and behind. And they clearly and obviously both reactted at the same time, from the same bullet.

And the "non-deformed" bullet WAS deformed; just not much. And such non-deformation is completely consistent with a long for caliber, heavy, moderate velocity, FMJ with a very thick jacket. The bullet acted in a manor that is PRECISELY what it was designed to do.

I've been there, and the distance wasn't far at all. I believe it was under 80 yeards. I do most of my handgun practice at 150 yards and I could easily get 3 shots onto a human sized target wtih a handgun at that range and speed he was traveling. I doubt they'd be head shots, but I could get three rounds out of a full magazine of 9 rounds in my .38 Super onto the target. So a guy with a rifle & scope could pull that shot off; especially if that guy was a Marine. And it has been duplicated hundreds of times by ooodles of people; it wasn't a hard shot.

If you look at the Zapruder film in the Warren Report frame by frame...measure the relationship between Kennedy's head and the back of Connelly's seat at the moment of impact of the supposed "frontal" shot. Before his head snapped back over several frames, there was 2-4 frames where his head very quickly rotated mostly downward on the axis of his neck, and forward...THEN his head (and whole body) snapped back. The blood spatter, piece of skull cap on the trunk, and the police motorcycle were from the full body spasm that caused Kennedy's head to snap back.

This is supposed to be a site of gun geeks. Who has ever shot something with a rifle and had the entrance wound splatter forward and the wound open up on the entrance side? The last shot, the kill shot is so obviously a wound of exit to anyone who understands ballistics, or has experience with bullet wounds. For 16 years I worked as a Paramedic in the bad part of a large city with one of the highest (and sometimes THE) murder rates in the nation. I have seen and treated more gun shot wounds than most combat medics see in a year on combat duty. NEVER have I seen a wound that opened up on the entrance side...UNLESS...it was contact wound. And contact wounds have their own profiles that are nothing like Kennedy's.

So stop and think about it. As a gun geek, you have to KNOW that all 3 shots came from above and behind. You have to KNOW that the head wound was a wound of exit. And the "best evidence", even more compelling than the Zapruder film is the body, which is a permanent record of what happened. All the autopsy evidence is completely consistent with what you should have been able to see with your own eyes. All the shots came from above and behind. Those two things should be at the very top of your list.

Next, do some research into the character of Oswald. The guy was a nut!!! And look into his actions in the 48 hours before the incident. Do that, and you should be sold. I won't doubt that some funny stuff happened, that there are inconsistencies in the investigation and so on and so on. But NONE of that stuff makes better evidence than what you can clearly see with your own eyes, given your background as hunters and shooters.

I've thought that more then a few of our Presidents, post Kennedy, should have taken a drive the Dealy Plaza in a convertible.

Jim

Great post Kevin, I agree with most all of it. However I don't believe that Oswald was a lone nut. He was most likely working for someone or he was a full blown patsy. Saying Oswald was 'nuts' and that Ruby was 'nuts' is just too easy.

What do you make of this clip?

Everybody lied except the warren commission including RFK, Jackie, and her daughter.

Did you catch Nova on PBS the other night? It was very well done and their gun experts did all sorts of tests under controlled conditions. Real science.

They concurred that the Warren commission did indeed get it right, at least regarding the gunshots.

I've seen it.

Did you see Hemmers piece on foxy news revealing new findings discovered in Mr Orrs new research proving some previous conclusions wrong?

Hemmer presented this stuff because it is news.

The August 30, 1993, issue of U.S. News & World Report carried a cover story on "Case Closed," a new book by Gerald Posner. The book, like the Warren Commission report, concluded that Oswald assassinated the president acting alone.

Based on the casual research I had done to that point, I believed that there had to have been at least two shooters firing into the limousine.

It was disturbing that a respected news magazine was proclaiming "Case Closed" to be the ultimate truth about the assassination and trying very hard to close the book on the subject once and for all.

After reading the article, and the book itself, I set out on a personal odyssey that consumed me for over 18 months.

On my own time, completely separate from my Justice Department job, and using my own money, I began a research project with the goal of uncovering every speck of original, raw evidence that existed of the gunshots in Dealey Plaza.

If I did not accomplish that goal, I came very close.

I went to Dallas and walked around Dealey Plaza, inspecting it from every angle, including from Oswald's sixth floor window, from the roof of a nearby building, and from the grassy knoll.

I made numerous trips to the National Archives and read every document and studied every photo they had related to the events in Dealey Plaza.

Based on a preliminary report of my analysis of the gunshot trajectories, I became one of the few private citizens ever allowed by the Archives to examine in person original pieces of evidence in the case--the president's bloody shirt, coat, and tie, the magic bullet, the bullet fragments from the limousine, and the section of curb that a bullet struck.

I also read thousands and thousands of pages of private books, magazines, and reports on the assassination.

On April 17, 1995, I mailed a 72-page report on the final results of my research project to Attorney General Janet Reno.

It presented what was then, and I believe still is, the only complete visual reconstruction of the gunshots together with all of the evidence supporting it.

The report proves beyond a reasonable doubt that four shots were fired during the assassination.

Oswald fired three shots--the first wounding the President in the back and neck, the second missing the President completely and hitting Governor Connally in the back, chest, and thigh, and the third missing the 25-foot-long limousine entirely.

While Oswald was spraying bullets wildly, another shooter, an expert marksman on the top of another building, fired a fourth shot, a near-perfect fatal hit at the center of the back of the president's head that exited the right side of the head and struck the governor's right wrist.

In the report, I recommended a number of things the Justice Department could do to further confirm my analysis.

The Department directed the FBI to do only one of those things -- examine important forensic evidence I had pointed out on one of the bullet fragments found in the limousine. It took about five years to complete that examination and report the results.

In the end, the FBI did only a portion of the fragment examination I had requested, and the results were incomplete and inconclusive. The Department permanently shut down any further investigation of my analysis.


John T. Orr is the author of "Analysis of Gunshots in Dealey Plaza." Orr's independent research convinced the FBI to conduct additional testing on JFK evidence as late as 1997. Results were inconclusive, but he suggests that even more testing should be done.

Ghost, he doesn't ask us to only take his words as gospel. He shows photographic evidence to back up his conclusions. He SHOWS how conclusions reached by the WC are erroneous.

It aired for the first time on Wednesday.

There were three shots, and they came from the 6th floor of the SBD. The evidence is overwhelming.

If you look at the Warren Report, they so didn't take the easy way out. It remains to this day one of the most complete investigations in all of history. Did they make mistakes? Yep! Are there some weird controversies? Yeah, there are. But if you do a deep dive into the person of Oswald then the "nut" thing REALLY does fit.

As for Ruby, he wasn't so much of a nut as he was a patriot who was offended by someone killing the President. He was well connected and he managed to work his way to within touching distance. Maybe it was planned, or maybe at the last minute he said to himself; "hey, I can fix things nice and neat right here and now. I don't want to see this guy get off on some technicality or some such nonsense. Maybe at the last minute he saw an opportunity and took it."

If you look into the history of Ruby you'll see that he was very much the opportunist. He was well investigated and he had no accomplices.

I sincerely think Oswald was a VERY confused and anxious man seeking some avenue of attention. And I think Ruby was quite sane (if you can see what he did as a sane act), and just took advantage of an opportunity to put his name down in history as the man who killed the man who killed the president of the United States.

So what do I make of the clip? I see an opportunistic man who is trying to make his 15 minutes of fame last a lifetime. I'd say he succeeded.

The problem is, NONE of the conspiracy theories really hold water. They're massive conspiracies, or the small ones are just too far fetched. They don't make sense to a reasonable person in light of the evidence that he was a street hood who saw an opportunity to be a name forever remembered in history.

No way Oswald was a patsy, they'd never pick someone that mentally unstable. There are about a zillion ways someone like that would unravel the whole thing before they got a chance to do the deed. And he wasn't working for someone, because again, he was just too damn crazy. He was a completely unstable and unreliable person. No one would ever in their right mind enter into a conspiracy of that magnitude with a man so mentally unbalanced. If they had, then they were rather unbalanced themselves...so much so, they would have been caught very early on.

Lastly, when I went to executive protection school; a course that was taught by USSS instructors, we studdied assins and assinations in great detail. The lone assassin has a very distinct profile and Oswald fits it perfectly. But here's the kicker. He fit the profile LONG before anyone had determined what the profile was. I find it really hard to believe that someone would be able to find a man who fits the profile even before the profile had been invented. No, Oswald was a lone gunman, and he was seriously mentally unbalanced. Take a deep dive into the personalities of both Oswald and Ruby and I think you'd agree.

If you like your plan, you can keep it,period.

Make sure and avoid contradictory EVIDENCE.

THIS. Thread does have entertainment value though in addition to the kookery...

And how exactly do you control ballistic evidence? And again...look at the film. The film confirms it all.

If you had complete control of the investigation (and that would be assuming a LARGE conspiracy, but let's just say so for arguement sake), then yes you could control a lot of evidence. But there's absolutely NO WAY to fake the Zapruder film, and the autopsy. The notes of the doctors at Parkland are consistent with those of the autopsy, even though the doctor did contradict himself a couple of times. But his written report actually confirms to the contrary of what he said in interviews. That's because what he saw was something he THOUGHT was an entrance wound on the front of the head, but that was becaue he had no experience with such wounds. Bue if you read his notes, they actually confirm the autopsy findings.

So to do that, you'd have to have both doctors in on it. And then somehow, one of those doctors went against the plan on live TV; but then contradicted himself on his written report. Not very good conspirators.

And then we keep coming back to the Zapruder film; it confirms a single shooter from above and behind. Again, we're gun people, so we know that if there were more than one shooter, there's NO WAY to guarantee that you can sell the idea of a singler shooter! You have no way of knowing exactly where the bullets will go, and what shape they will be in. They say the one bullet was planted. But that doesn't make sense. They had no way to know if there was or wasn't any bullet fragments inside the body or skull. So you're not guaranteed to be able to match a planted bullet with bullet fragments inside the body. The ammunition was recovered, and it was metallurgically tested against fragments inside the head and it was consistent. You can't control such evidence, and anyone who knows their guns can tell you it's just not doable.

No one has ever explained to me why any of us, by ourselves, could not have done what Oswald did, given the same circumstances and opportunity.

And probably been a lot smarter about it. I would have had a better rifle to start with and a cleaner get away plan.

The doctors at Parkland never turned Kennedy's body over to see an entrance wound on his back, they had no need. One doctor was interviewed about it and confirmed this.

You mean the Z Film the FBI confiscated and when released had 4 frames destroyed?

Life magazine ruined those frames, not the FBI.

While that's interesting, it's irrelevant. They were concerned with the head wound. And where he contradicted himself was in relation to the head wound. Which is the one that is the most controversial.

Again, such a conspiracy means the Parkland doctors were in on it, as well as the ME at Bethesda. And dont forget that individual interviews with the nursing staff at Parkland which all basically supported what the doctors had in their reports...so the nursing staff would have had to be in on it as well. You find that believable?

And again, you can't fake the ballistics. There is no way to guarantee there would be no bullet fragments inside the body; that's not doable then, and not doable now.

So you're saying that 4 frames turns everything around completely? And let's just say for a minute that they were able to doctor the film (which is for the most part beyond the technology back then, but not completely impossible; just highly unlikely). Would you doctor the film in such a way that it looks like he was shot from the front (appear to those who are ballistically ignorant) if you were trying to cover for that other shooter? Does that make sense to you?

You missed the point that I was agreeing with you.

So thus far, the conspiracies that are being thrown around would involve the FBI planting or controling evidence, the ER doctors & staff, and the medical examiner at Bethesda. Then you'd have to have consulted an expert in film making to know how to successfully "doctor" a film...yet you run the risk of it contradicting the film of someone else who could have been there filming. And you'd run the risk of it being in conflict with still photos. There's no way you could completely control the crowd. You couldn't know who was and wasn't there, who had cameras, of what type, etc. So to pull it off, you'd have to make EVERYONE with any sort of camera that was at Daly Plaza a plant who was in on the conspiracy.

The whole thing had to be cooked up at very high levels, but then you'd have to have one or more agents at the Dallas FBI field office in on the conspiracy. Then you'd have to have some of the lawyers on the Warren Commission in on the conspiracy, and you'd have to have someone on the grand jury in on the conspiracy just to make sure the official inquest headed in the direction of your supporting evidence.

This sounds like something real to you?

Think...When Clinton got a hummer in the Oval Office, there were TWO (2) people in the Oval Office at the time; and he was completely unable to keep that a secret.

I really think those who buy into all the conspiracy theories do so because of a few basic premises:

1- They're pre-disposed to thinking it was some grand conspiracy.
2- They have only studdied the evidence put forth by the critics and conspiracy theorists.
3- They're so up to their necks in the conspircy, their ego can't accept that they've been sold a pile of goods.
4- It's just fun to think of such grand conspiracies.

Yes I did...completely. That's about par for the course. You know me; sharp as a bowling ball

FBI got the film before they were sold to the magazine, Ghost, according to some researchers.

The FBI is the group who gave the reason for them being destroyed.

Here's the film frame by frame. Skip ahead to 5:12, the moment the bullet impacted. Study that frame. Which direction does the blood, brain matter and skull flap go?

It goes forward. Why? Because he was shot from behind.

Which bullet missed and hit the curb. Which buried in the dash? Which bullet hit in his back, never struck bone and angled up and out his throat?

The first bullet most likely deflected off the tree in front of the SBD and hit the curb under the overpass. It then shattered and then a frag hit the guy standing there in the cheek.

Not familiar with the one in the dash but several frags were found throughout the limo from the kill shot to the head.

One can accept the WC report and never consider other evidence or, if one is doubtful, they can consider new, previously unconsidered evidence and theories.

If one doesn't want to see disputing evidence, that's fine.

I can't fathom denigrating other findings, however, without being exposed to them.

I can't denigrate the new, supposedly more advanced ocular meds without trying them on a patient and evaluating them, just because previous meds have worked for me in most cases.

First time I shot a Carcano I was 8 years old.
Target was 1/2 sheet of paper at 100 yards.
I hit it on the first shot with iron sites.

Marine at 70 yards, just a chip shot.

And you hit it again on a moving target in 1.2 sec (IIRC) right?

How many shots were fired

I've done that more the once on game at greater distances with a bolt action rifle....just not with a carcano.

If you think this was some incredible feat of shooting, you need to get out and shoot more.

Fact: Oswald was using 6.5mm 160 gr round nosed ""FMJ"" ammo.

Therefore. How can anyone explain such enormous damage to Kennedy`s head with just one shot fired from the right rear (6th floor TSBD building) with just a single 6.5mm FMJ 160 gr bullet? A single 6.5mm 160 gr round nosed FMJ bullet created that much head damage?.......I think not.

This video here also falls in line with forensic pathologist Dr. Cyril Wecht`s and other forensic authorities conclusions.

Kennedy was hit twice in the head by two seperate and nearly simultaneous shots, fired from two different directions.

The following video is a frame by frame head damage breakdown which clearly shows additional head damage which was """NOT""" caused at the first head strike at Zapruder frame 313.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVfIh-8nXyQ

I am a lone gunman guy but had some questions I posted on the other thread. I just found this that does a great job sorting out- Mortal Error.
ThinkThe Agent is Off THe Hook

John Orr was allowed full access to all known government information and holdings of the FBI by the DOJ after presenting his evidence.

He has presented in his book the metallurgy of the offending bullets. They are not nearly of the same composition.

Keeney, Acting Asst. Attorney Gen. Criminal Division

�John T. Orr, Jr., Chief of the Antitrust Division�s Atlanta Field Office, wrote to the Attorney General in April t advise her of his conclusions that President Kennedy was killed by a second gunman acting in concert with Lee Harvey Oswald. John Hogan, Chief of Staff in the Office of the Attorney General, referred Mr. Orr�s submission, which Mr. Orr indicated was the result of research conducted during non-duty hours, to the Criminal Division for review.�

�We met with Mr. Orr, while he was in Washington to receive a Distinguished Service Award from the Attorney General, and we have since reviewed the report which he prepared. It is our opinion that Mr. Orr�s observations justify the performance of certain modest preliminary investigative measures to test the foundation of his assassination conspiracy theory.�

�Jurisdiction. Federal criminal statutes covering the assassination of the President and assaults against federal officials generally were enacted after 1963. Accordingly, the criminal statutes of Texas represent the best, and probably only viable, mechanism for prosecution of any living person determined to have been involved in the assassination of President Kennedy. Despite the lack of apparent federal prosecutorial jurisdiction over the November 1963 assassination of President Kennedy, Congress and the Executive Branch have historically recognized Department of Justice investigative jurisdiction over the matter, concurrent with Texas investigative jurisdiction. The Federal Bureau of Investigation has been deemed the appropriate federal investigative agency for this matter, partly in recognition of the potential appearance of a conflict of interest which the Secret Service, as the protective force at the time of the assassination, would confront.�

�...It is our view that the Department has retained investigative jurisdiction over the assassination, though such investigation is restricted to activities which are not based upon the expectation of an eventual federal prosecution. Thus, the examination of evidence in federal possession is seemingly appropriate, which obtaining evidence by grand jury subpoena would like be inappropriate. This position was adopted by the Division and endorsed b the Office of the Deputy Attorney General when we declined to seek a court order for exhumation of former Governor Connally�s body following allegations that bullet fragments remaining in his body from the incident would reveal, by weight or composition, the existence of additional bullets.�

�Mr. Orr�s Theory. Mr. Orr has challenged the Warren Commission and House Select Committee trajectory findings. It is his view that Mr. Oswald and a conspirator fired two distinctly different types of ammunition from different locations in a coordinated attack. He believes that Oswald shot both the President and Governor Connally, while a marksman shot the President once in the center of the back of the head, actually causing the President�s death.�

�Mr. Orr believes that the second gunman assassinated the President with a single shot to the President�s head, fired after Oswald�s second shot. He believes that the ammunition used was very different from Oswald�s � a soft-nose or hollow-point bullet very different from the military style full-metal-jacket bullets which have been attributed to Oswald. He believes that the trajectory and impact of this �third shot� proves conclusively that neither Oswald�s ammunition nor Oswald�s location could have been the source of that fatal shot. Mr. Orr cites the fragment pattern documented by x-rays, in general, and the presence of fragments (visible in x-rays), outside the skull next to the entry would, or a type associated with soft-nose ammunition.�

Continued

While Mr. Orr has suggested rather complex measures, such as computer recreation of the assassination, to confirm his theory, he has also proposed certain investigative tasks which are relatively simple and inexpensive but which have the potential of confirming or refuting the foundation of his theory.�

��We endorse Mr. Orr�s proposal that a complete study of the bullet and bullet fragments housed at the National Archives be conducted, to include their color, texgture, density, and shape, and the presence of any foreign matter contamination. Alleged fiber evidence embedded in the bullet nose recovered from the front seat of the limousine should have characteristics consistent with the President�s shirt collar, tie, and tie liner � thus establishing a different trajectory than that previously identified.�

�A comparison of suspected pieces of the same round should be conducted. If Mr. Orr�s theory is correct, evaluation of identified wounds and bullet fragments should confirm the use of two very different types of ammunition, suggesting but not proving the involvement of two shooters....�

�...If the fabric evidence confirms Mr. Orr�s view of the likely trajectory of the �first shot� and the ammunition �footprint� and residue confirm that the �third bullet� was very different in composition from the others, we believe that there will then be a sufficient basis to further test Mr. Orr�s theory.�

Okay, now I'm just bored. Obfuscation is all it is. Oswald did it, simple as that. Chase rabbits if you like.

Thankfully, it only took the helpful FBI five years to partially (and finally) complete the tests of fiber analysis on one of the bullets he requested.

Anyway, the book is only 75 pages and shows the lab analysis of the bullets compositions, more intellectually acceptable bullet paths, pictures of the FMJ that went through a president and governors wrist compared to the deformity caused to the same type FMJ to a wrist bone alone, and many other interesting and previously unknown facts for those who are interested.

I'm sure Janet Reno gave him and him alone access to the material in the National Archives because he is a nut.

Those who are close minded have no fear of learning more.

Were this true, how did two shooters synchronize their shots at exactly the same � second in order to hit JFK's head at exactly the same moment to make it appear there was only one shooter???

Pretty highly sophisticated communications equipment and extraordinary coordination and timing, wasn't it????

L.W.

Who said that happened?

...................Obviously u r bored.

Well here`s a good rabbit to chase.......So maybe you can explain "exactly" how one single 6.5mm 160 gr round nosed FMJ bullet, fired from the 6th floor SBDB by one Lee Harvey Oswald, did so much obvious and visible damage to Kennedy`s head????

www.youtube.com/watch?V=IVfIh-8nXyQ

How do you explain the disparity in the shape of Kennedy`s head from frame 313 to frame 337?

Oswald did it? Simple as that? Oh really? Not the conclusion of many experts in the forensic field.

Better watch the gruesome video link above. If you can conclude that ONE single 160 gr 6.5mm FMJ round nosed bullet can create that much head damage, then you, Vince Bugliosi, Gerald Posner and all the rest of the "Oswald acted alone" group, simply are ignoring what is very obvious.

BIGSQUEEZE said it happened. See my post and his quote just above your question.

L.W.

...............Wasn`t designed to be synchronized. That`s just the way it happened.....Trying to add more to it than what it actually was? In the video link I posted, look at Kennedy`s head from frames 313 to 337.

Somebody tell me how in the world there could so much damage disparity to Kennedy`s head between frames 313 and 337 other than for a second and nearly simultaneous head shot.

It`s right there.....One bullet from Oswald`s rifle impacting the back upper portion of the head (frame 313), could not have created all that massive head damage as seen up to and including frame 337......NOT with a single 6.5 FMJ bullet.

Oswald was involved, but did not act alone.

I'm sold on the lone gunman theory, but what if this woman was telling the truth?

..........No. I did not say it happened. I`m just passing along the info from the video link.

Dr Cyril Wecht and many other experts in forensic pathology; said that it happened that way. 2 head shots.

If you disagree, then your beef is with them and Robert Harris who made the above video link.

Then maybe your knowledge of how one 6.5mm 160 gr FMJ bullet can explain all the damage to Kennedy`s head? I`d like to read it.

Okay, if that's "just the way it happened," and the two shooters and all the conpirators didn't care if it became known immediately by the cops and everyone else that there were two shooters, or perhaps even others -- grassy knoll, etc., -- then the "gigantic, incredibly complicated, complex conspiracy" planned to the last second by all the conpirators to make it APPEAR that L.H. Oswald was the single, lone nutcase shooter, would never have been able to be plausible.

By the way, as to your statements that a single 6.5 FMJ bullet could not possibly do that damage to Kennedy's head, I suggest you do some research of the ballistics of the 6.5 Mannlicher, and the ballistic coefficient of the round. They are very impressive and the 6.5 is one of the great hunting rounds ever developed. Used all over Europe, often in the USA, and also in Africa.

I've never shot a man in the head with anything, (have you???) but I've shot a couple of deer in the head with a good ol' .30-30 round nose bullet, and it was gruesome as Hell to look at when I started cleaning them. Over many years having killed quite a lot of game with various calibers (Mule deer, Blacktail deer, Whitetail deer, elk, antelope and Black bears), I've seen bullets do some very strange things inside shot animals. Just my experience.

As for my having a beef with you or any of the other conspiracy believers, I could not possibly care less what you believe. You have the right to believe whatever suits you as does everyone else. I will say, however, that some of the many statements made fall far beyond the scope of credibility.

If there were a gigantic, extremely complex, abstruse conspiracy by LBJ, the FBI, CIA, Secret Service, Texas oil billionaires, Castro, Kruschev, the Mafia, Jack Ruby, the girls at Ruby's Carousel Club who were miffed because they hadn't been shagged by JFK & RFK, the entire Dallas P.D., the Texas Rangers, and the various doctors at Parkland Hospital and Bethesda Hospital, which all boiled down to framing poor Lee Harvey Oswald for just being in the Depository and drinking a Coke at the wrong time, well, so be it. Nothing I can do about it now, lo these 50 years long past.

L.W.

L/Wolf,,,,,,,,,,,Did you watch the video link I posted earlier? And is your knowledge of forensic pathology as it relates to bullet wounds to the skull (not talking about game animals here) as good as Dr Cyril Wecht plus the many other pathologists who say that in indeed Kennedy was hit by 2 head shots?

In your above post, you fail to explain the how or the why, the very obvious changes in the damage to Kennedys head as seen in frame 337, WHICH WAS NOT PRESENT AT ALL IN FRAMES 313 THROUGH FRAMES 319 TO about 320. No 6.5mm 160 gr FMJ bullet or any damn bullet, is going to penetrate the full length of a human skull (from the back of the head and then through the right temple area; frame 313), do its damage, and then return like a boomerang to perform more damage even if the time span is within 1/2 second or less.

You suggest that I research what kind of damage a 6.5mm Carcano round does on game animals???? Was this thread talking about 6.5mm Carcano impacts on game animals???? NO! Let`s stick with the human skull and brain matter, which in any comparison, is a totally and completely different ball game than vs impacts on most game animals.

As to your conjecture about the synchro biz, that the shooters needed to PLAN to shoot almost simultaneously in order to make it look as though there was only one shooter. Although I understand your point, your argument is based on pure speculation. My point on the other hand, looks at what is clearly seen.

If you were an attorney in a mock courtroom advocating that Oswald acted alone vs Oswald not acting alone, your above conjecture if offered as evidence, would be nothing more than heresay in legal terms.

The best evidence is the condition of Kennedy`s head from frame 313 up to and including frame 337. And had a competent forensic autopsy been performed in Dallas, this matter would have been solved decades ago. Since that didn`t happen, then what is left? The condition of Kennedy`s head and the Z-film.

Setting aside the CIA, the FBI, Castro, LBJ, the Mafia, Jack Ruby plus all the other things you mentioned in your last paragraph, let`s read your explanation as to how the head damage substantially increases from frame 313 up to and including frame 337......Focus on that.

The damage to Kennedy`s head is a very good indicator of whether there were 2 head shots or just 1 head shot. Unless Oswald used a frangible bullet, a FMJ 6.5mm 160 gr bullet in and of itself, could not have performed that much head damage. And that isn`t just my opinion.

If you happen to disagree with that, that`s fine. But in doing so, you are also disagreeing with many experts in the field of forensic pathology as well as their expertise regarding bullet impact entrance wounds and exit wounds.

I go with what is obviously seen rather than on emotion, assumptions and conjecture.

NO! I have never shot anyone in the head. And you are quite ridiculous for using that kind of analogy as one of the comebacks trying to support your argument.

So again! Let`s read your explanation as to how the damage to Kennedy`s head occurred from frames 313 up to and including frame 337 using just ONE 6.5mm """FMJ""" 160 gr bullet fired from the rear.

For those who believe what .gov (Warren Com) said about Oswald acting alone, remember what they said about his killer? Essentially they said Jack Ruby was a very patriotic, America loving bar (can we say strip club?) owner who really, really, really loved JFK and thus uncontrollably hated Oswald to the point he just couldn't help getting a gun and going down to the courthouse and shooting him.

Yep, if you like your health plan....

eyeball
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 03/22/11
Posts: 18431
Tonight at 10:00 ET on Fox News they are, I guess, going to repeat Bill Hemmers Kennedy show. They are calling it, 'Fifty Years of Questions.'

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Meeting of the House Select Committee on Assassinations
The United States House of Representatives Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) was established in 1976 to investigate the assassinations of John F. Kennedy and Martin Luther King, Jr. The Committee investigated until 1978 and issued its final report, and concluded that Kennedy was very likely assassinated as a result of a conspiracy. However, the Committee noted that it believed that the conspiracy did not include the governments of the Soviet Union or Cuba.

Uhhh, that whole video by Robert Harris is conjecture and guesswork and innuendo. Almost undecipherable images, blurred beyond any clarity but specifically described by Robert Harris telling you what he wants you to believe???? Line drawings of what Harris determines was Kennedy's skull when hit and how his skull and brain reacted?? Yeah, right, that's what happened 'cause Harris tells you so.

Harris looking at a highly blurred film and selectively telling you where Jackie Kennedy's eyes were looking here and there?? On and on and on and on.

And you're belief that a FMJ 6.5 bullet blasting through a man's skull could not do the damage that was apparent on Kennedy's head???

Oh well, believe whatever suits your conspiracy scenario.

I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree.

L.W.

Uh, the House Select Committee in 1978, after a two year study, determined it to be very likely a conspiracy.

Yes they did, but you're not understanding why.

They reached that conclusion based on faulty audio evidence that supposedly proved the likelihood of 4 shots. 4 shots equals conspiracy. That 'evidence' is largely dismissed as complete and utter bullshit today...as it should be.

If there was a conspiracy, after all these years how could anyone know what was/is the truth or speculation?

Bottom line for me is, conspiracy or not, after 50 years and no one else other than Oswald has ever been positively identified and charged, it's a pretty safe bet that it will remain that way.

for the longest time, I've been in the 1 shooter camp, but with some reservations. Last nights program posed a different theory. That Kennedy was accidentally shot by a SS agent drawing his rifle to address the threat. This too may be BS. My question for KevinG is what his experiences with gunshot wounds to the skull? The entrance wound (for the fatal shot) was reported to be 6MM. Is it possible for a 6.5MM bullet to produce a 6MM entrance hole.
As an aside, some think that all Marines could have made this shot. Not so, having shot with a platoon of them on PI for 3 weeks. Some could, many couldn't.

I do think there was a conspiracy. Happenstance just doesn't seem very likely to me.

Never say never. Maybe someone will come forward after all these years.

............Well I figured as a diehard Oswald acted alone guy, that you would come back with something like that.

Ok then! Other than your own above opinion, what evidence can you produce that can disprove Robert Harris` version of the attack as well as those pathologists who said that it did happen that way. I`ll tell you....NOTHING!

Then that bulge or protrusion (SKULL FLAP?) at the back of kennedy`s head is just a blur? Well it is a little blurry. I`ll give ya that. But that blur wasn`t present from frames 313 to about 319-20,,NOW WAS IT!...NOPE! Explain THAT one! Z film must have been tampered with. LOL!

Also while your at it, can you explain the obvious changes of the outline or top hairline differences of Kennedy`s head above the right ear to the top of the scalp from frames 313 to 337. Dammit somebody sabotaged the film...LOL!

Oh yeah! That was all a blur too that didn`t exist from frames 313 to 319-320.

Maybe someone kinda threw those blurs in there...LOL!

Blurry or not, doesn`t dismiss what is obviously seen in the later frames, which was not present in the earlier frames.

Now if Oswald had used a frangible bullet rather than a FMJ, then I just might concur or agree with you. What is seen in the film, doesn`t reconcile with a single FMJ 6.5mm bullet. Too much skull damage.

That`s what many forensic pathologists say including Dr. Cyril Wecht. But even that won`t convince the diehard Oswald acted alone crowd.

That's pretty much my point, though.

According to the conspiracy theorists there has been so much critical evidence and testimony lost/disappeared/confiscated/whatever else, even if someone were to ever come forward, how could anyone know they were telling the truth, let alone be able to prove enough to say this case has finally been solved?

I don't know, frankly.

I don't completely dismiss the lone wing nut shooting out a window theory, but it seems like such a stretch.

Couple that with the Ruby shooting of Oswald and it starts to seem pretty far fetched that some sort of conspiracy wasn't in play.

Dr Cyril Wecht, one of Americas leading forensic pathologists, just on Geraldo says BS on WC report- one bullet theory in no way caused seven wounds. Says JFK was going to dismantle the other govt after the Bay of Pigs - the CIA. He also just said he stands by the report from the attending trauma surgeon of JFK, that the brain blow out shot was from the grassy knoll, and criticizes the WC for no excuse in the case of the missing brain of JFK indicating coverup.

OJ Simpson investigator, Mark Fuhrman, says WC report of bullet path is ridiculous. On Geraldo Revera show.

Yeah, Geraldo gets all the best expurts.

Wecht is an idiot.

So how do you explain the House committee on assassinations in 1976 and its investigation of JFK, selecting Dr Cyril Wecht as its expert in forensic pathology to lead it to the conclusion after two years that the JFK murder was likely a conspiracy?

Well, nwa believes what his teachers told him in elementary school about mean old conservatives is true, too.

PS The whore monger strip club owner, jack Ruby, was a patriotic American who loved JFK, too, so he just walked into the courthouse as they were moving Oswald and drilled him.

Whatever happened, it was a good shot.

Had to be.......it hit a Kennedy!

For sure.

The WC was set up by LBJ, who made billions out of a war in Vietnam that JFK promised would not happen with him in office. The mob and CIA wanted Castro overthrown. They gambled on JFK moving in with the military and overthrowing Castro at the time of the bay of pigs. Allen Dulles was banking on it and was in charge of the CIA. Do you know how many of his men were hung out to dry and died at the bay of pigs? And JFK was going to destroy the government that was the CIA? And LBJ put Allen Dulles on the Warren Commission? YGBKM.

[video:youtube]http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=plpp&v=7Q9vbwZtyXA&p=PL772BC0B819CFBD12[/video]