Sounds like he ran into a momma and cub. I worked in Glacier for one summer and Teton for two summers. When you spend your entire summer there, you are going to have grizzly interactions if you hike a lot. Iy happened to me in Glacier, Yellowstone and Teton, as well as in the Absarokas. One of my co-workers in Glacier, Gary Goeden was killed by a momma grizz when he was hiking near Many Glacier. He was an experienced hiker, but he bumped into a mama griz off-trail. Unless the bear spray is in your hand ready to go, you are toast.
I hear a lot of people talking about carrying when in Yellowstone as protection from bears. The reality is if you killa charging bear in Yellowstone and you don't already have a big chunk out of your butt, be prepared get prosecuted and lose all your guns forever.
Best you can do is hike with your head on a swivel - make noise and don't hike alone.
Sounds like he ran into a momma and cub... Unless the bear spray is in your hand ready to go, you are toast.
I hear a lot of people talking about carrying when in Yellowstone as protection from bears. The reality is if you killa charging bear in Yellowstone and you don't already have a big chunk out of your butt, be prepared get prosecuted and lose all your guns forever.
Best you can do is hike with your head on a swivel - make noise and don't hike alone.
True dat. I'm convinced the main reason I didn't get killed by that mama grizzly when I was 15 is that there were 5 of us fairly close together. She bluff-charged, but if there'd only been one or two, I fear it may not have been a bluff.
I hear a lot of people talking about carrying when in Yellowstone as protection from bears. The reality is if you killa charging bear in Yellowstone and you don't already have a big chunk out of your butt, be prepared get prosecuted and lose all your guns forever.
Probably so, but I think I'd still rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
I hear a lot of people talking about carrying when in Yellowstone as protection from bears. The reality is if you killa charging bear in Yellowstone and you don't already have a big chunk out of your butt, be prepared get prosecuted and lose all your guns forever.
Best you can do is hike with your head on a swivel - make noise and don't hike alone.
It's better to survive a bear attack and fight the politicians afterwards, an unarmed fight with a grizzly is a one-sided proposition.
Going Mano el Mano with a Grizz with a "hiking" knife doesn't appeal very much to me. The few times I've been in YellowStone, I was packing a Glock 20 in 10mm. I figure that beats the heck out of a sharp stick, any ole day of the week. YMMV
If it's self defense you likely WILL NOT be charged. However, a couple of elk hunters in Grand Teton National Park killed a grizzly that attacked them when they got too close in thick cover and dim light to where the bear had cached an elk kill. It took nearly a year for the USFWS and the Park Circus to determine that it was a defensive shoot. That's a long time, and a lot of billable hours for your attorney, to be twisting in the wind wondering what's going to happen. But at least they're alive.
This entire array of tourists attacked by wild animals in national parks and other areas is just the remnants of the liberal mindset.
Liberals view wild animals differently than you and I. They see them as extensions of house pets that live in a bigger back yard.
They re-introduce dangerous species in areas that have direct contact and conflict with humans.
Wolves, grizzlies and other dangerous predators have no warning bell in a liberal's mind.
Oh for f*ck's sakes...
Really? I don't necessarily disagree. I've seen PLENTY of the Disney mindset when it comes to critters. Deer/bear/wolves playing together whilst butterflies circle their heads.
This doesn't sound like a sow defending her cub to me. The guy was partially eaten which sounds more like a predatory attack. When a sow is defending her cubs they usually incapacitate the intruder then leave the area. Momma frizz is teaching that cub bad habits as they both need to be put down.
This entire array of tourists attacked by wild animals in national parks and other areas is just the remnants of the liberal mindset.
Liberals view wild animals differently than you and I. They see them as extensions of house pets that live in a bigger back yard.
They re-introduce dangerous species in areas that have direct contact and conflict with humans.
Wolves, grizzlies and other dangerous predators have no warning bell in a liberal's mind.
Oh for f*ck's sakes...
Really? I don't necessarily disagree. I've seen PLENTY of the Disney mindset when it comes to critters. Deer/bear/wolves playing together whilst butterflies circle their heads.
Who we going to blame when a bow hunter or few get tuned up this season?
We don't even know the circumstances of this one, but it sure doesn't stop the wild speculation around here.
Going Mano el Mano with a Grizz with a "hiking" knife doesn't appeal very much to me. The few times I've been in YellowStone, I was packing a Glock 20 in 10mm. I figure that beats the heck out of a sharp stick, any ole day of the week. YMMV
If you are limited to a handgun better get a .500 S&W ... Grizzly are big. As I think about this ... one time at the gun club, I was shooting a semi-auto called the Grizzly. Seems to me it shot a .45MAG , it was neat handgun.
This entire array of tourists attacked by wild animals in national parks and other areas is just the remnants of the liberal mindset.
Liberals view wild animals differently than you and I. They see them as extensions of house pets that live in a bigger back yard.
They re-introduce dangerous species in areas that have direct contact and conflict with humans.
Wolves, grizzlies and other dangerous predators have no warning bell in a liberal's mind.
You have it exactly right, in fact i think i might post your comments on my facebook page. Few days ago on a local association page was discussion about reintroduction of wolves just north of prescott. Turned out it wasn't correct, but one of the posters not liking what i said posted something to the effect "we stole the wolves land, now have to give it back." just brain dead.
no...they plan to kill the bear and her cub ... Because of a worthless hiker.
I doubt this bear and cub will be put down unless the attack was found to be predatory. Past defensive interactions have resulted in the bear being left alone. The guy I worked with was hiking up through/near huckleberry bushes when he jumped the sow and cub. She killed him, but she also had a snack and cached his body. She was left alone to raise her cub. Grizzlies are still predators. Yes, the threat precipitates the attack, but once dead it is not uncommon for the grizzly to feed and cache the remains.
When you look at the history of fatal grizzle attacks that were defensive, the bear will often feed on a solo victim.
You can carry in a national park if your permit is recognized by the State that contains the park.
mike r
I think the law states the park has to abide by the gun laws in the state the park is in.
That is a small, but important difference.
For example I believe open carry is legal in Idaho, Wyoming, and Montana so no matter where you are in Yellowstone (with the exception of federal buildings) you can open carry without a permit.
Or carry concealed in accordance with the concealed carry laws of whatever state you are in.
People are ignorant of the fact that animals want nothing to do with humans other then to get food hand outs or see us as food. Generally, not even that.
Only two species like being around humans, dogs and house cats; and they can be rather picky also.
It isn't just liberals who are ignorant of this, urbanites in general are absolutely stupid when it comes to the wild outside the city.
Ranger once told me " sure you can carry in the park, just can't discharge a round" Not sure on her basis of law or fact. She's not a gun hater either, did say she carry's when outside of the park.
As for me (I'm sure some will disagree) I will opt for bear spray. Broader and more effective range than a handgun gives more room for nervousness. RMEF published a good write up a few years back, may be worth looking for. Just how good are you with your handgun, especially under pressure? How often do you practice? I shoot competitively and speed and accuracy come into play. Not to mention making sure you place a stopping round into the critter. Like mileage, opinions will vary, this one is mine.
Now, if we could get the bears to work with the bison we'd be all set. Bison lulls in the tour-on for photo op, bear hops out of bush and grabs tour-on for a snack thus removing tour-on from gene pool. Enterprising person sets up stand selling slightly used iPads found scattered around in the park.
Ranger once told me " sure you can carry in the park, just can't discharge a round" Not sure on her basis of law or fact. She's not a gun hater either, did say she carry's when outside of the park.
As for me (I'm sure some will disagree) I will opt for bear spray. Broader and more effective range than a handgun gives more room for nervousness. RMEF published a good write up a few years back, may be worth looking for. Just how good are you with your handgun, especially under pressure? How often do you practice? I shoot competitively and speed and accuracy come into play. Not to mention making sure you place a stopping round into the critter. Like mileage, opinions will vary, this one is mine.
Now, if we could get the bears to work with the bison we'd be all set. Bison lulls in the tour-on for photo op, bear hops out of bush and grabs tour-on for a snack thus removing tour-on from gene pool. Enterprising person sets up stand selling slightly used iPads found scattered around in the park.
I hear ya on spray vs using a handgun efficiently. IMHO I think both is the best option, if the mofo is hard at me, I won't try the spray... But then again I think a defensive bear hand gun should also be tethered to the holster, and at least if I get some bullets into bear, it should have an eventual effect, spray, you just never have a clue, and I dont' trust spray if the bear is dead serious.
How many here has experience with bear spray in an attack with a bear? I see ,the ,use bear spray all the time and you hear about the spray being blown back in their face,go off in the pack. Also I see where you have to break the plastic band on trigger to deploy the spray. With several people in a bear situation I can see some using spray and some using the guns. I hope the spray does not get to the shooters eyes as the try to shoot the bear. I watched a bear attack on tv where the gal tried to get the spray to work and could not break the tie. Got chewed on for a second time. What is the real world experience of these encounters?
How many here has experience with bear spray in an attack with a bear? I see ,the ,use bear spray all the time and you hear about the spray being blown back in their face,go off in the pack. Also I see where you have to break the plastic band on trigger to deploy the spray. With several people in a bear situation I can see some using spray and some using the guns. I hope the spray does not get to the shooters eyes as the try to shoot the bear. I watched a bear attack on tv where the gal tried to get the spray to work and could not break the tie. Got chewed on for a second time. What is the real world experience of these encounters?
It seems quite simple, in Alaska where they have lots of Grizzlies, they rely on guns, everywhere else they use spray. Take your pick...
Ranger once told me " sure you can carry in the park, just can't discharge a round" Not sure on her basis of law or fact. She's not a gun hater either, did say she carry's when outside of the park.
As for me (I'm sure some will disagree) I will opt for bear spray. Broader and more effective range than a handgun gives more room for nervousness. RMEF published a good write up a few years back, may be worth looking for. Just how good are you with your handgun, especially under pressure? How often do you practice? I shoot competitively and speed and accuracy come into play. Not to mention making sure you place a stopping round into the critter. Like mileage, opinions will vary, this one is mine.
Now, if we could get the bears to work with the bison we'd be all set. Bison lulls in the tour-on for photo op, bear hops out of bush and grabs tour-on for a snack thus removing tour-on from gene pool. Enterprising person sets up stand selling slightly used iPads found scattered around in the park.
I hear ya on spray vs using a handgun efficiently. IMHO I think both is the best option, if the mofo is hard at me, I won't try the spray... But then again I think a defensive bear hand gun should also be tethered to the holster, and at least if I get some bullets into bear, it should have an eventual effect, spray, you just never have a clue, and I dont' trust spray if the bear is dead serious.
I agree; I'm no expert but will not be in bear country without a firearm. Bear spray? Sure but not without a firearm too. You make another good point regarding a lanyard for your handgun. I'm betting the chance of getting separated from your handgun in the first seconds of a real attack are 50/50 or better.
Tonight on NBC news they said that they have caught the mother, and have id'ed the cub and will catch it, and both will be euthanized.
I'd almost bet that if they hadn't of fed on the hiker they would have been relocated, once they made a meal out of him that sealed their fate. Losers all the way around in this one.
As an employee in Glacier NP in the early 1960"s, we'd occasionally see a grizzly on the trails and give it wide-berth. Following one horrifying attack on a ranger, another ranger's 12-year old son and a tourist, I purchased a Ruger Blackhawk (flat-top) in 44 Magnum and carried it regularly in a WW2 medic's backpack.
Late in the season, I was working solo in the back-country and was treed by a female grizzly and pulled the pistol and killed it. Never told anyone about the incident until 2004 when I was visiting Glacier for the first time sine the early '60's and was talking with a ranger. I told him and he replied that most rangers carried (legal or not) - this was before the carry laws were changed.
I remember carrying the ranger who was mauled down the trail and he said that the bear just kept going back into the brush and waiting for 20 minutes or so and then charging again - if they moved, it slammed into them again. I didn't want this to happen to me.
I've hunted them/Browns on three occasions for about an eight week span where I was living amongst them.
What I've seen first hand made me a truly humble believer. Destruction that made me wonder if a D8 dozer was tearing scheit up. Raw power, intelligence and strength that must be seen to be believed.
If you don't have respect while on their turf you are one ignorant s.o.b.
Who we going to blame when a bow hunter or few get tuned up this season?
Does that happen a lot? As an outsider, it seems like it usually happens to bunny hugger types.
We don't have people getting killed by mammals often around here, mostly fish and reptiles. It doesn't seem to happen to real outdoorsmen much.
Couple of guys a year, it seems.
I really don't understand the need to "blame" in all of these cases. That's more of a liberal thing to me, I guess - we always need to find someone or something to blame.
We can't just accept that sometimes you get a really chitty day.
Who we going to blame when a bow hunter or few get tuned up this season?
Does that happen a lot? As an outsider, it seems like it usually happens to bunny hugger types.
We don't have people getting killed by mammals often around here, mostly fish and reptiles. It doesn't seem to happen to real outdoorsmen much.
Couple of guys a year, it seems.
I really don't understand the need to "blame" in all of these cases. That's more of a liberal thing to me, I guess - we always need to find someone or something to blame.
We can't just accept that sometimes you get a really chitty day.
Rancho Loco; Top of the morning to you sir, hopefully this finds you and your fine family well.
I've got to slither off to work here, but have to agree with your assessment 100% - sometimes bears are just being bears and nobody is to "blame".
I really don't think she was doing anything wrong taking a walk on a hot Okanagan day and for whatever reason that dry sow was being a broom jockey and attacked.
Anyway sir, those are just my thoughts from a bear infested area. Have a good week and all the best to you folks for the remainder of the summer.
I doubt this bear and cub will be put down unless the attack was found to be predatory. Past defensive interactions have resulted in the bear being left alone.
Park officials have plainly stated that the mother will be killed and most likely her cubs will be killed also.
Park officials also made a public statement explaining that the safety of the 3.5 millions visitors that Yellowstone receives annually, are more important than a single bear's life.
My son and I will be backpacking in the Absarokee Wilderness this week. If something should happen to us be sure you guys hit these key points after watching the news:
1.) Probably environmentalists and probably voted for Obama.
2.) Dumb asses probably did not have a gun.
3.) This is what happens when you don't "keep your head on a swivel."
4.) They probably deserved to die since they probably voted for Obama.
5.) Dumb fugks probably didn't carry bear spray.
6.) Dumb fugks probably carried bear spray.
7.) He should have never brought his teenage son to grizz country (this is especially important to note if you live east of the Mississippi.)
The reality is if you killa charging bear in Yellowstone and you don't already have a big chunk out of your butt, be prepared get prosecuted and lose all your guns forever.
I doubt this bear and cub will be put down unless the attack was found to be predatory. Past defensive interactions have resulted in the bear being left alone.
Park officials have plainly stated that the mother will be killed and most likely her cubs will be killed also.
Park officials also made a public statement explaining that the safety of the 3.5 millions visitors that Yellowstone receives annually, are more important than a single bear's life.
Travis
Unless we find out the bears name is Cindy... ...maybe I'm confusing Yellowstone with Jellystone.
Park Superintendent Dan Wenk said the adult bear would be killed for public safety if DNA samples show it was involved in Crosby’s death. The cubs first would be offered to a zoo or rehabilitation center, but such placements are difficult, and the animals likely would be killed if no permanent home is found, Bartlett said.
Bartlett said many had already called in to say they did not want the bear to be killed. If the attack had only been defensive, and the man killed, Bartlett said it might have been possible to release the bear with just a collar. However, because there are signs the bear consumed the man after the attack, the National Park Service must balance their wish to protect resources with the importance of maintaining the park’s safety for not just the visitors, but the employees of the park.
My son and I will be backpacking in the Absarokee Wilderness this week. If something should happen to us be sure you guys hit these key points after watching the news:
1.) Probably environmentalists and probably voted for Obama.
2.) Dumb asses probably did not have a gun.
3.) This is what happens when you don't "keep your head on a swivel."
4.) They probably deserved to die since they probably voted for Obama.
5.) Dumb fugks probably didn't carry bear spray.
6.) Dumb fugks probably carried bear spray.
7.) He should have never brought his teenage son to grizz country (this is especially important to note if you live east of the Mississippi.)
8.) This would not happen to a hunter.
Travis
That's funny but correct.
In areas where you have lots of bears and lots of people, this kind of schidt's gonna happen.
My son and I will be backpacking in the Absarokee Wilderness this week. If something should happen to us be sure you guys hit these key points after watching the news:
1.) Probably environmentalists and probably voted for Obama.
2.) Dumb asses probably did not have a gun.
3.) This is what happens when you don't "keep your head on a swivel."
4.) They probably deserved to die since they probably voted for Obama.
5.) Dumb fugks probably didn't carry bear spray.
6.) Dumb fugks probably carried bear spray.
7.) He should have never brought his teenage son to grizz country (this is especially important to note if you live east of the Mississippi.)
Ralphie, you are right, I was not considering open carry.
Travis I hike both sides of the North Fork every year and being in Griz country definitely adds to the attraction and elevates your awareness levels. We have seen Grizzlies 2 of the last 3 years. I have found a Hillpeople Gear chest pack to be ideal for carrying my pistol while carrying a pack.
Of course you are at increased risk because no female of any species could resist you.
As you go to sleep at night in your bag envision burritos
Park Superintendent Dan Wenk said the adult bear would be killed for public safety if DNA samples show it was involved in Crosby’s death. The cubs first would be offered to a zoo or rehabilitation center, but such placements are difficult, and the animals likely would be killed if no permanent home is found, Bartlett said.
Bartlett said many had already called in to say they did not want the bear to be killed. If the attack had only been defensive, and the man killed, Bartlett said it might have been possible to release the bear with just a collar. However, because there are signs the bear consumed the man after the attack, the National Park Service must balance their wish to protect resources with the importance of maintaining the park’s safety for not just the visitors, but the employees of the park.
After spending a bit of time in the park (but not on the couch, so this probably won't mean much here) I've noticed a few things about park bears..
They don't give a flying chit about people, and ignore you for the most part.
They also hate the sound of an 870 getting racked. Either most of them have caught a beanbag, or they are able to communicate to each other how they feel in the ribs.
Who knows what happened here, but if it was predatory, and mom showed some Cubs how to catch and eat people, that isn't good for business.
I'd favor killing every griz that has attacked people, regardless of the circumstance.
I'm guessing that there are enough bears now and that actual attacks are still rare enough that doing this wouldn't affect bear populations all that much.
Grizzly's don't make great neighbors, either do wolves. I'm ok having them in a park, but if I have to live with them so should everyone else. Take all the captured bears and send them to NY, LA, SF, Chicago, etc. Fair is fair when you use the historic range argument.
My son and I will be backpacking in the Absarokee Wilderness this week. If something should happen to us be sure you guys hit these key points after watching the news:
1.) Probably environmentalists and probably voted for Obama.
2.) Dumb asses probably did not have a gun.
3.) This is what happens when you don't "keep your head on a swivel."
4.) They probably deserved to die since they probably voted for Obama.
5.) Dumb fugks probably didn't carry bear spray.
6.) Dumb fugks probably carried bear spray.
7.) He should have never brought his teenage son to grizz country (this is especially important to note if you live east of the Mississippi.)
8.) This would not happen to a hunter.
Travis
9.) "They were probably menstruating".
10.) Dumb fugks probably tried to load their guns with the wrong ammunition.
Based on prior experience, #10 is the most likely.
I hear ya on spray vs using a handgun efficiently. IMHO I think both is the best option, if the mofo is hard at me, I won't try the spray... But then again I think a defensive bear hand gun should also be tethered to the holster, and at least if I get some bullets into bear, it should have an eventual effect, spray, you just never have a clue, and I dont' trust spray if the bear is dead serious.
I just got back from Yellowstone. And everywhere I went I carried by Model 629 in a shoulder holster, but I definitely carried bear spray on my belt as well.
Making a CNS shot on a bear running at you at 30 mph over uneven terrain would be a long shot for most if not all of us. If you don't drop him dead, he'll chew you up pretty good before he expires. Use your spray and you can visually follow the continuous stream of liquid until you have it in the bear's face. There's over a 90% chance that the spray will work.
For me, bear spray will be my first option; the revolver would be the last.
Interesting note; I spend time in Yellowstone very summer and have yet to see another hiker carrying. In fact I don't think I've even seen a ranger in the backcountry that was either.
I hear ya on spray vs using a handgun efficiently. IMHO I think both is the best option, if the mofo is hard at me, I won't try the spray... But then again I think a defensive bear hand gun should also be tethered to the holster, and at least if I get some bullets into bear, it should have an eventual effect, spray, you just never have a clue, and I dont' trust spray if the bear is dead serious.
I just got back from Yellowstone. And everywhere I went I carried by Model 629 in a shoulder holster, but I definitely carried bear spray on my belt as well.
Making a CNS shot on a bear running at you at 30 mph over uneven terrain would be a long shot for most if not all of us. If you don't drop him dead, he'll chew you up pretty good before he expires. Use your spray and you can visually follow the continuous stream of liquid until you have it in the bear's face. There's over a 90% chance that the spray will work.
For me, bear spray will be my first option; the revolver would be the last.
Interesting note; I spend time in Yellowstone very summer and have yet to see another hiker carrying. In fact I don't think I've even seen a ranger in the backcountry that was either.
but in that link is this paragraph that makes me wonder WTF
"The Credit Card Accountability Responsibility and Disclosure Act of 2009, was enacted May 22, 2009 and will become effective February 22, 2010. Section 512 of this law; Protecting Americans from Violent Crimes, supersedes the uniform treatment of firearm possession in the national park system outside Alaska under the regulations found at 36 C.F.R. 2.4."
No, I agree; short of the "Book of Eli times" I doubt I'd ever carry open in polite society (which of course would be gone) but as noted above the proliferation of rules, reg's, and laws make it unclear as to what is legal/illegal.
My understanding of the law is you can carry in the park the same as you can carry in any designated wilderness or national forest boundary as long as the respective state that boundary lies in, allows for open carry.
As I said, it's a moot point for me but that is how I understand the law.
I can. If one of my dog bites someone for no reason (such as a stranger attacking me), the dog is gone.
I don't blame dogs for being dogs, no more than I blame a bear for being a bear. But I'll not accept being eaten by either.
I can too.
At what point does a bear that has attacked humans, and lost it's fear of them, regain trust to not do it again?
Even if a problem bear has not attacked a human, but is causing problems and is trapped and relocated, 75% of those bears are repeat offenders, and end up being "put down".
As my stint as a wildlife specialist dealing with large predator problems, the facts outweigh the ignorance of those that don't really know as much as they think they do.
Yes you can. I usually wear a long sleeved sun shirt over a t-shirt, and the shoulder holster is beneath the sun shirt which I don't button. So I guess I would describe it as discreet open carry.
When you enter the park you are given a map and brochure. The brochure says that carrying guns is legal, but discharging them is not. But in a self-defense situation, I'm not going to worry about the ban on discharge and I wouldn't think too many DAs in Wyoming would either.
You are not allowed to carry in ranger stations or other federal buildings and most of them have signs on the doors reminding you of that.
I hear ya on spray vs using a handgun efficiently. IMHO I think both is the best option, if the mofo is hard at me, I won't try the spray... But then again I think a defensive bear hand gun should also be tethered to the holster, and at least if I get some bullets into bear, it should have an eventual effect, spray, you just never have a clue, and I dont' trust spray if the bear is dead serious.
I just got back from Yellowstone. And everywhere I went I carried by Model 629 in a shoulder holster, but I definitely carried bear spray on my belt as well.
Making a CNS shot on a bear running at you at 30 mph over uneven terrain would be a long shot for most if not all of us. If you don't drop him dead, he'll chew you up pretty good before he expires. Use your spray and you can visually follow the continuous stream of liquid until you have it in the bear's face. There's over a 90% chance that the spray will work.
For me, bear spray will be my first option; the revolver would be the last.
Interesting note; I spend time in Yellowstone very summer and have yet to see another hiker carrying. In fact I don't think I've even seen a ranger in the backcountry that was either.
Funny thing, I was up in Kananaskis in Alberta last week in high grizzly density area. Ran into a ranger and had a pleasant conversation about "bear medicine". He noticed and approved of the can of bear spray on my belt, and I noticed his 2cans of spray in addition to his sidearm and his 300 Win Mag rifle. I guess Canuck rangers have a different attitude about this stuff than Yellowstone rangers. Could be because more folks get killed by griz up there.
As an aside from the local fellow getting attacked; when I went to Yellowstone last month it seemed like the tourists (not all) acted like the place was Disneyworld or a zoo. Folks would try and run up to critters and get as close as possible to get a picture. I think a lot of people are out of touch with critters and how critters make a living. It ain't a video game out there!
I did not see any displayed firearms and only rangers seemed to carry spray.
when I went to Yellowstone last month it seemed like the tourists (not all) acted like the place was Disneyworld or a zoo.
To them, that's exactly what it is.
One reason you may not see a lot of cans of spray in Yellowstone is that the majority of the "trails" are so short and so filled with people that it pretty much feels like Disneyworld. In Glacier most of the trails are longer (3-5 miles) and not built like sidewalks like Yellowstone. I see a LOT of people carrying spray in Glacier. More specifically the trails starting from the Many Glacier Campground.
Try to think of it in terms of defensive and predatory behavior mr. large predator expert.
stupid azzed asian gets tuned up while trying to take a selfie, bear gets a pass.
bear starts catching and eating humans because it's easy peasy, bear gets removed.
this has nothing to do with bears eating twinkies, mr. expert.
Who gives a flying [bleep]? Would you expect a guy that killed your daughter to be out on bond because she ran from him?
Here you go:
2 separate bear attacks, same bear. Apparently people that thought like you said GOOD BEAR, BAD PERSON for running. Let the bear go free and play.
Two months later bear kills another person.
Wildlife experts say the National Park Service was justified in killing an adult female grizzly bear this week after DNA evidence placed the sow at the sites of two fatal attacks over the summer at Yellowstone National Park. More News From Greenwire
Brian Matayoshi, 58, of Torrance, Calif., was confirmed killed by the female bear near the Wapiti Lake Trailhead on July 6 (Land Letter, Sept. 22). Less than two months later, on Aug. 26, hikers found the mauled body of John Wallace, 59, of Chassell, Mich., on the Mary Mountain trail roughly eight miles away from the first attack.
DNA evidence obtained from hair and scat samples taken at the scene of the August attack showed the bear was at the site of the second attack and may have scavenged Wallace's remain
The two attacks were the first grizzly-caused fatalities in Yellowstone park in 25 years.
On Sunday, Yellowstone officials euthanized the 6- to 7-year-old, 250-pound sow citing public safety concerns. The bear, which had two cubs, was not put down after the July mauling because investigators determined the attack was caused in part by Matayoshi's evasive actions, which included running and yelling for help, both of which may have provoked the bear.
If park bears were interested in eating people, it would be a blood bath every day.
Yes, it ain't. But the above example is of one that did kill and some folks decided that bear wasn't wrong in killing a person (how the [bleep] we got to that point in life is beyond me).
That same bear killed 2 months later. So yes, it's not a bloodbath, but when it is, kill the bastards.
One of the reasons I carry spray is I have had one encounter with a bear (president's son type) that was not aggressive, but not comfortable either. He had the high ground above a trail and was acting... strange, for lack of a better word. If he stood around much longer I certainly wouldn't have shot him, but I'd not hesitate to spray his ass and get him moving along.
Same thing applies to dogs when I walk with my kids. I certainly would shoot a dog in the street if it latched onto my daughter's arm, but when they just stand there mad dogging you and not doing much else, it's very easy to take two steps forward and squeeze halfway down the trigger. They haul ass back to wherever they came from and it all ends without incident.
Those are just my thoughts on spray. It's only $30 and nice to have on you. Plus you can empty it on the bear's face after you kill it.
Try to think of it in terms of defensive and predatory behavior mr. large predator expert.
stupid azzed asian gets tuned up while trying to take a selfie, bear gets a pass.
bear starts catching and eating humans because it's easy peasy, bear gets removed.
this has nothing to do with bears eating twinkies, mr. expert.
Mr. Expert?
Thanks. I'll have to add that to my resume...
Since you are SO knowledgeable on how to deal with large predator situations involving human interaction, perhaps you can tell the onlookers here the difference in the danger of a large predator being released again after attacking a human for any reason?
It may, or may not have been an interaction initiated by the animal. It may have been initiated by the human, but it still has the same results as far the animal behavior forecast for future interactions with humans.
Perhaps "fear of humans" was a bit understated. Or misstated.
I'll make an inference from that. You may not shoot your handgun in the park; you may not plink nor target practice. You certainly may not shoot at any passer-by animal in the park. Human vs human violent crime in the park is nil so far as I know. So there is the question as to why is carrying then legal in the park. Note: you can't carry into a ranger station or other federal building in the park.
That credits the law makers with understanding that in distinct areas with frequent bear-human contact (coming in close vicinity of one another), there will be the very rare but occasional life and death attack where, if you carry, and if providence allows, you can put it into action to (try) defend yourself.
Did I infer too much in thinking the law implies that?
Not to put too fine a point on this but I find it interesting.
Local radio report yesterday stated that Mr Crosby was "hiking without bear spray" I spend a fair amount of time in the backcountry here, and I tend to carry both spray and a handgun. Always interesting to read the debate between gun or spray. I am always hopeful that the people carrying a gun (especially the big bores)are putting hundreds if not thousands of practice rounds down range every year. You WILL need the practice;)
Try to think of it in terms of defensive and predatory behavior mr. large predator expert.
stupid azzed asian gets tuned up while trying to take a selfie, bear gets a pass.
bear starts catching and eating humans because it's easy peasy, bear gets removed.
this has nothing to do with bears eating twinkies, mr. expert.
Mr. Expert?
Thanks. I'll have to add that to my resume...
Since you are SO knowledgeable on how to deal with large predator situations involving human interaction, perhaps you can tell the onlookers here the difference in the danger of a large predator being released again after attacking a human for any reason?
It may, or may not have been an interaction initiated by the animal. It may have been initiated by the human, but it still has the same results as far the animal behavior forecast for future interactions with humans.
Perhaps "fear of humans" was a bit understated. Or misstated.
"Conditioned" to humans would be a better term.
Either way, you are wrong, Joker.
It's kinda hard making sense of your post, but anyhow, I'm not wrong.
A potential solution: Relocate problem bears,scary wolves, smelly skunks and tent chewing rodents in a 'special restricted'area. Charge extra for entry, unless you have a GOLDEN pass. Call it the adventure zone and allow testing of bear spray, large caliber handguns and tinkly bells.
Asians w/ cameras would be admitted free as an incentive to the critters.
I have noted earlier that my 45-70 Guide Gun accessorizes my favorite hat fabulously.
I love reading these threads. Seems like every year or so we gotta go down this road. When you read the comments of spray vs guns, one might get the notion that about half? favor each method. I want to laugh at that except if some these chuckleheads convince someone to go out with a gun instead of bear spray, that is downright dangerous. Someone referenced a study and I have read it. Less than 10% of the bear encounters where bear spray is used result in a mauling. Pretty good odds. However, 50% of the encounters when a firearm is used result in mauling...I don't like those odds so much. there are a few...a very few...guys on this forum who can handle a pistola well enough to stop the bear most of the time. For the vast majority of people, bear spray is way more effective. Those are the facts.
For my 2 cents, I think it is irresponsible to suggest to others (either directly or indirectly) that a gun is superior to spray on the internet. Some cidiot might actually read it, believe it, and then get mauled trying to get his gun that he has dutifully practiced twice with, out of the holster.
Less than 10% of the bear encounters where bear spray is used result in a mauling. Pretty good odds. However, 50% of the encounters when a firearm is used result in mauling...
I have no problem with your basic point re: pepper spray vs. guns.
But the above sentence pre-supposes that one discharges firearms with as little provocation as one might dispense pepper spray.
I suspect if 50% of folks got mauled after shooting a firearm at an aggressive bear, most of those 50% of bears were, for the most part, right on top of them anyways by the time they got shot.
I will continue to advocate the gun, there are too many idiots already. Just carry the gun, no training or practice is necessary if the handgun is very very powerful.
I will continue to advocate the gun, there are too many idiots already. Just carry the gun, no training or practice is necessary if the handgun is very very powerful.
mike r
Heavens yes, I can see that logic! If the gun is very powerful, then no need to practice with it and hit what you aim at! Brilliant! The concern you display for your fellow man sure is heartening. Some of the people that are on the fence on what to use are good, honest, country-living, conservative people!
Birdwatcher...read the study. Good comments, here are my thoughts. Bear spray doesnt shoot that far. so they were close with bear spray. People with guns may shoot at bears further away inciting an attack. So it also pre-supposes that one discharges bear spray with as little provocation as one might discharge a gun. Hard to tell which is the case, but I do remember they had a definition for an "encounter" that was pretty well defined, even if I cannot remember it!
Even if the numbers are off a little bit....90% to 50% is a huge discrepancy....way more than can be overcome by a slight twist of the definition of an encounter IMO. But good discussion!
Berettaman, I am not sure you comprehended the logic of my post at all. Fence sitters, even if country conservatives, need to get off the fence, take personal responsibility and come up with a plan of action that they can actually execute.
My concern for my fellow man extends only to those who deserve protection. The self-delusional are not included.
Berettaman... if you're talking about the Herrera paper out of Montana a couple years back (and I think you are) you've missed a couple of very important points that were barely mentioned in the paper.
The first is that most of the encounters involving firearms were encounters between bears and hunters, whereas most of the bear spray encounters involved people who were not hunting.
Since hunters tend to be quiet and stealthy (relatively speaking) they are far more likely to get very close to a bear before they are detected, whereas hikers and berry-pickers tend to encounter bruins at a greater distance. If someone is in a bear's "personal space" but not presenting an active threat, a bluff charge will be the more likely response than a real attack. However, if the person is very close to the bear and/or its food cache, the person will be seen by the bear as an immediate threat and an attack is far more likely. Similarly, if a hunter is surprised by a bear at close quarters, s/he is unlikely to be able to use a firearm effectively unless he/she has been trained in fighting with that weapon. Most hunters don't train to fight with their deer/elk rifles. And as you and others have noted, most people who carry hand cannons have little or not practice with them, let alone training in fighting with them.
As such, bear encounters involving firearms are really very different than those involving pepper spray, so the 90% vs 50% statistic, while impressive at first blush, isn't really what it appears.
Pepper spray works great on bluff charges, since the bear has no intention of closing to attack anyway. It's not so clearly effective in actual attacks, and there is strong evidence that after the first noseful of pepper spray the bear is far less susceptible to a second noseful and more likely to close the attack. BC forestry people have some good data on that.
Try to think of it in terms of defensive and predatory behavior mr. large predator expert.
stupid azzed asian gets tuned up while trying to take a selfie, bear gets a pass.
bear starts catching and eating humans because it's easy peasy, bear gets removed.
this has nothing to do with bears eating twinkies, mr. expert.
Mr. Expert?
Thanks. I'll have to add that to my resume...
Since you are SO knowledgeable on how to deal with large predator situations involving human interaction, perhaps you can tell the onlookers here the difference in the danger of a large predator being released again after attacking a human for any reason?
It may, or may not have been an interaction initiated by the animal. It may have been initiated by the human, but it still has the same results as far the animal behavior forecast for future interactions with humans.
Perhaps "fear of humans" was a bit understated. Or misstated.
"Conditioned" to humans would be a better term.
Either way, you are wrong, Joker.
It's kinda hard making sense of your post, but anyhow, I'm not wrong.
A person who THINKS they know what any bear is going to do must be on psychedelic drugs. After watching a bear or three, I conclude a bear doesn't know what he/she is going to do one minute to the next. One can become a Treadwell expert anytime they want.
Many of the makers of bear spray include a "holster" in the package that goes on the belt. I've got one that is bandoleer style that I think works better for me. I've also got a couple of these Because I do the fulfillment for the company. The Yellowstone Association is beginning to carry them in the gift shops in the park. Most of the orders that we fill are for outdoor stores and energy exploration companies in Canada.
Interesting note; I spend time in Yellowstone very summer and have yet to see another hiker carrying. In fact I don't think I've even seen a ranger in the backcountry that was either.
Well I spent time there this summer and was carrying...but you'd not have seen it unless you were trying to maul me.
Berettaman... if you're talking about the Herrera paper out of Montana a couple years back (and I think you are) you've missed a couple of very important points that were barely mentioned in the paper.
The first is that most of the encounters involving firearms were encounters between bears and hunters, whereas most of the bear spray encounters involved people who were not hunting.
Since hunters tend to be quiet and stealthy (relatively speaking) they are far more likely to get very close to a bear before they are detected, whereas hikers and berry-pickers tend to encounter bruins at a greater distance. If someone is in a bear's "personal space" but not presenting an active threat, a bluff charge will be the more likely response than a real attack. However, if the person is very close to the bear and/or its food cache, the person will be seen by the bear as an immediate threat and an attack is far more likely. Similarly, if a hunter is surprised by a bear at close quarters, s/he is unlikely to be able to use a firearm effectively unless he/she has been trained in fighting with that weapon. Most hunters don't train to fight with their deer/elk rifles. And as you and others have noted, most people who carry hand cannons have little or not practice with them, let alone training in fighting with them.
As such, bear encounters involving firearms are really very different than those involving pepper spray, so the 90% vs 50% statistic, while impressive at first blush, isn't really what it appears.
Pepper spray works great on bluff charges, since the bear has no intention of closing to attack anyway. It's not so clearly effective in actual attacks, and there is strong evidence that after the first noseful of pepper spray the bear is far less susceptible to a second noseful and more likely to close the attack. BC forestry people have some good data on that.
So, You mean BGG was SURPRISING Ace behind a gas station? or You woke up behind a gas station with a "Hello. My name is Easy" sticker over your tit and a grin'in Hobo playing a banjo nearby.
My son and I will be backpacking in the Absarokee Wilderness this week. If something should happen to us be sure you guys hit these key points after watching the news:
1.) Probably environmentalists and probably voted for Obama.
2.) Dumb asses probably did not have a gun.
3.) This is what happens when you don't "keep your head on a swivel."
4.) They probably deserved to die since they probably voted for Obama.
5.) Dumb fugks probably didn't carry bear spray.
6.) Dumb fugks probably carried bear spray.
7.) He should have never brought his teenage son to grizz country (this is especially important to note if you live east of the Mississippi.)
8.) This would not happen to a hunter.
Travis
I'd feel sorta sorry for any bear that would happen to cross you and Mini-Flave's path since it would be neck shot, hacked with a kukri, and porcupine'd with ninja stars....
I'd feel sorta sorry for any bear that would happen to cross you and Mini-Flave's path since it would be neck shot, hacked with a kukri, and porcupine'd with ninja stars....
When you're in the big city you have to make concessions. In this case I resulted to an empty beer can.
I think I'd rather face the bear than pay the price they want for diesel at the Cooke City Sinclair. At least you have a chance of coming out on top with the bear. They wanted almost $1/gallon more than the park, which wanted a good $0.50 more than the rest of the world. Good French Dip subs at the Beartooth cafe though. Glad the silver bullet worked on something other than a werewolf.
I think I'd rather face the bear than pay the price they want for diesel at the Cooke City Sinclair. At least you have a chance of coming out on top with the bear. They wanted almost $1/gallon more than the park, which wanted a good $0.50 more than the rest of the world. Good French Dip subs at the Beartooth cafe though. Glad the silver bullet worked on something other than a werewolf.
Now that I am almost sober, I'll try and explain for those who wonder why bear spray can be so useful.
We had no bear encounters in the backcountry but we did step in a huge pile of bear schit when hanging our food for the night.
My buddy (visiting from the Chicago area) had never seen Yellowstone so we drove to Cooke City after coming off the trail. Got our room, everybody showered, and then we did an accelerated tour of Yellowstone.
Got drunk, ate pizza, passed out in the "cabin" behind the gas station. Prior to passing out I emptied the back of the pickup in a solid downpour. While doing so I noticed they had motion lights outside the door which was helpful.
Fast forward to around 0300. I wake up to piss and when climbing back into bed, the motion light comes on. My first thought was dog or 'coon or person. Looked out the blinds and there was a grizzly leaning on the driver's side corner of the bed of my truck. Two feet up, two on the ground.
My buddy and son heard me say "This fugk is going to scratch my truck!" I asked for a can of spray but nobody had any. They left it in the cab of the truck. I opened the door, and yelled. The bear (now inside the bed of my truck and rummaging through my not inexpensive gear) looked up as though I should stop irritating him.
I turned around and dug an empty Silver Bullet out of the garbage. Stepped outside and let it go. BULLSEYE! Right on his nose. I received accolades from my son and buddy as the bear barreled out the opposite side of the bed (thank Christ) and ran away (double thank Christ.)
He returned about 30 minutes later. I tried to get a pic but he hauled ass as soon as I opened the door. I reminded him that "You fugk with me you get fugked with." I think he heard me.
Moral of the story? Not all encounters with wildlife justify the emptying of your .44 Mag. If you're going into bear country, buy some fugking bear spray.
If you're going into bear country, buy some fugking bear spray.
I have used bear spray eight times over the years.... on dogs. I remember because it is expensive.
When walking my own heelers or running em behind my bike in this town I run into a bunch of loose dogs. Most often they are more interested in my dogs than me. A few will come running in an aggressive charge.
Most charging dogs are easily bluffed away, a very few ain't.
Eight times in twelve years, each time on an inbound dog intent on mixing it up with my dogs. I'm recalling four pits, two rottweilers, a boxer and a big yellow mutt.
Every time but one I missed. With a spray can one tends to shoot low. Finally by the last one I learned to aim for the dog's tail if ya wanna hit it in the face.
Didn't make much difference, I don't even know if bear spray bothers dogs all that much. What startled 'em and snapped 'em out of "charge" mode was that sudden 20 foot blast in their direction. Every one turned on a dime and ran.
Might have the same effect on bears, about like an empty beer can on the nose.
If you're going into bear country, buy some fugking bear spray.
I have used bear spray eight times over the years.... on dogs. I remember because it is expensive.
When walking my own heelers or running em behind my bike in this town I run into a bunch of loose dogs. Most often they are more interested in my dogs than me. A few will come running in an aggressive charge.
Most charging dogs are easily bluffed away, a very few ain't.
Eight times in twelve years, each time on an inbound dog intent on mixing it up with my dogs. I'm recalling four pits, two rottweilers, a boxer and a big yellow mutt.
Every time but one I missed. With a spray can one tends to shoot low. Finally by the last one I learned to aim for the dog's tail if ya wanna hit it in the face.
Didn't make much difference, I don't even know if bear spray bothers dogs all that much. What startled 'em and snapped 'em out of "charge" mode was that sudden 20 foot blast in their direction. Every one turned on a dime and ran.
Might have the same effect on bears, about like an empty beer can on the nose.
Birdwatcher
Stand down range of a can of bear spray and have somebody "miss."
Stand down range of a can of bear spray and have somebody "miss."
It will remove all sorts of question marks.
I dunno, the last dog, the one that I hit square in the face at short range, was a big ol' friendly (to people) female rottie.
The owners came out all apologetic and took control of the dog. We talked. The dog was rubbing its face on the grass a bit, but otherwise didn't seem put out or distressed. I figured spray starch to the eyes would have worked about as well.
Detractors of bear spray have been claiming for years that bears could GAS about capsasin.
If I had zero experience with the product, I'd agree.
I dunno, once we had a 9oz can of bear spray go off in the car when we were driving, right between the front seats of a little Toyota, on a friggin' HOT day in Kansas. So much that some of it actually pooled on the floor mat. We pulled over and bailed ASAP
Of course it got in our eyes and burned us and all that, on a hot day capsacin on bare skin feels like sunburn. I don't recall our two dogs we had with us evincing any distress, but then we was a tad preoccupied at the time
The biggest PITA was touch anything in that car for weeks and then touch your eyes and it would get you.
And...
I seen that rottweiler that got a second or two full in the face at point blank from me, so much so its face was actually wet. It rubbed its face in the grass like fifteen seconds, then just sat there being friendly next to its owners, never did yelp or whine or anything like that.
Birds don't react to capsacin at all. Might be that dogs are less sensitive than humans, maybe bears too.
Birds don't react to capsacin at all. Might be that dogs are less sensitive than humans, maybe bears too.
maybe you bought a crap product? what birds react to doesnt have much bearing.....they arent a mammal.....penicillin is highly deadly to snakes they use it to wipe out invasive snake species on Pacific Islands with baits, doesnt mean it doesnt kill bacteria and save human and other mammals lives....you know for someone thats claimed to have done scientific studies you sure have a closed mind and make some phugged up reaching to nonsense to try and prove your off the wall theories....
bear spray aint 100% effective anymore than mace is 100% on people but works often enough to be a legitimate piece of kit
Anything which helps you survive should be a legitimate piece of your kit, out where you can access it instantly. It is too bad it cost so much for bear spray. It would be nice to have a couple or three practice cans.
You can buy practice cans, but they still cost about $25.
I few years ago I had an old can and I wasn't sure it still held pressure. I discharged it for practice. If you've never done that you may not realize that what comes out is a steady stream of liquid, not just a vapor cloud.
When finished I rinsed the can and my hands, threw it away, then went inside and washed my hands with soap and water. Then that night, I used the hand towel that I had dried my hands on after washing them earlier, and my face starting burning like hell. It's stronger than people realize.
Stephen Herrero is an actual expert on bear attacks and he's written books about that subject. And he came to the conclusion that it is very effective.
But nothing kicks up the testosterone on the campfire like this subject. Tell someone that they should use bear spray and it's like telling them that they should give up whiskey and start drinking champagne.
I few years ago I had an old can and I wasn't sure it still held pressure. I discharged it for practice. If you've never done that you may not realize that what comes out is a steady stream of liquid, not just a vapor cloud.
Finally checked out this thread to see why it was going on so long, and it mostly turned out to be the SOS about bear spray vs. firearms. The exception turned out to be Travis's posts, which tend to rescue Campfire threads from being the SOS.
Udap, the ~$40 stuff from Bass Pro or Cabelas, whichever was more convenient.
Quote
you know for someone thats claimed to have done scientific studies you sure have a closed mind and make some phugged up reaching to nonsense to try and prove your off the wall theories....
I've carried it (almost daily for 12 years)/used it more than most, albeit on dogs.
Seen it work equally well whether it actually hit the charging dog (once) or not (seven times). Seen it have little or no apparent disabling effect after startling that one dog even with a solid full face/close range hit.
I never said bear spray didn't work. Just suggested the blast effect might be what startles the target, and then gave the empty beer can on the nose example of the same.
Dunno why you find that faulty reasoning.
Quote
bear spray aint 100% effective anymore than mace is 100% on people but works often enough to be a legitimate piece of kit
Never said it was 100%, never advised against carrying it.
It worked fer me 100% on dogs (8 for 8) and saved me a bunch because shooting eight dogs inside the city limits over a 12 year period would have required me having an attorney on speed dial.
I would and have carried it in the woods in bear country because I figure I'd have a better chance of it working than with a handgun, but would want a handgun as backup anyways.
Now that I am almost sober, I'll try and explain for those who wonder why bear spray can be so useful.
We had no bear encounters in the backcountry but we did step in a huge pile of bear schit when hanging our food for the night.
My buddy (visiting from the Chicago area) had never seen Yellowstone so we drove to Cooke City after coming off the trail. Got our room, everybody showered, and then we did an accelerated tour of Yellowstone.
Got drunk, ate pizza, passed out in the "cabin" behind the gas station. Prior to passing out I emptied the back of the pickup in a solid downpour. While doing so I noticed they had motion lights outside the door which was helpful.
Fast forward to around 0300. I wake up to piss and when climbing back into bed, the motion light comes on. My first thought was dog or 'coon or person. Looked out the blinds and there was a grizzly leaning on the driver's side corner of the bed of my truck. Two feet up, two on the ground.
My buddy and son heard me say "This fugk is going to scratch my truck!" I asked for a can of spray but nobody had any. They left it in the cab of the truck. I opened the door, and yelled. The bear (now inside the bed of my truck and rummaging through my not inexpensive gear) looked up as though I should stop irritating him.
I turned around and dug an empty Silver Bullet out of the garbage. Stepped outside and let it go. BULLSEYE! Right on his nose. I received accolades from my son and buddy as the bear barreled out the opposite side of the bed (thank Christ) and ran away (double thank Christ.)
He returned about 30 minutes later. I tried to get a pic but he hauled ass as soon as I opened the door. I reminded him that "You fugk with me you get fugked with." I think he heard me.
Moral of the story? Not all encounters with wildlife justify the emptying of your .44 Mag. If you're going into bear country, buy some fugking bear spray.
Finally checked out this thread to see why it was going on so long, and it mostly turned out to be the SOS about bear spray vs. firearms. The exception turned out to be Travis's posts, which tend to rescue Campfire threads from being the SOS.
Is this a cryptic way of calling me an ass hole?
Side note: IGA is all out of Tumbleweed. Wife tells me somebody in Havre keeps buying and drinking them all.
Udap, the ~$40 stuff from Bass Pro or Cabelas, whichever was more convenient.
Quote
you know for someone thats claimed to have done scientific studies you sure have a closed mind and make some phugged up reaching to nonsense to try and prove your off the wall theories....
I've carried it (almost daily for 12 years)/used it more than most, albeit on dogs.
Seen it work equally well whether it actually hit the charging dog (once) or not (seven times). Seen it have little or no apparent disabling effect after startling that one dog even with a solid full face/close range hit.
I never said bear spray didn't work. Just suggested the blast effect might be what startles the target, and then gave the empty beer can on the nose example of the same.
Dunno why you find that faulty reasoning.
Quote
bear spray aint 100% effective anymore than mace is 100% on people but works often enough to be a legitimate piece of kit
Never said it was 100%, never advised against carrying it.
It worked fer me 100% on dogs (8 for 8) and saved me a bunch because shooting eight dogs inside the city limits over a 12 year period would have required me having an attorney on speed dial.
I would and have carried it in the woods in bear country because I figure I'd have a better chance of it working than with a handgun, but would want a handgun as backup anyways.
Birdwatcher
for some damn reason you were trying to wrangle in that it doesnt work on birds.....for what? it has no bearing on anything cause a bird has lil in common with bears.....course it doesnt work on birds....wild peppers use birds not mammals for seed dispersal....
the blast isnt what works on most bears anymore than a beer can works on most bears....you admitted your aim sucked and then wondered why your results werent all that good....
I've always wondered why some here seem to be so confident that they could stop a bear attack with a handgun, other than the fact that they know they'll never need to.
I'll bet almost every one of us has seen a small whitetail deer have both lungs blown out, and then run 100 yards before it drops.
Think about a grizzly closing on you at 45 ft. per second, giving you maybe a couple of seconds to aim and shoot, knowing you better hit the skull or spinal column or you're gonna get mauled.
When a person shoots a grizzly bear in a self defense situation, somebody's almost certain to die. Not so with bear spray.
Forget about guns or bear spray and follow Travis's lead. Empty beer cans will work better, especially if you are the one that emptied the cans.
Moral of the story? Not all encounters with wildlife justify the emptying of your .44 Mag. If you're going into bear country, buy some fugking bear spray.
for some damn reason you were trying to wrangle in that it doesnt work on birds.....for what?
Too much time spent teaching I guess.
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you admitted your aim sucked and then wondered why your results werent all that good....
No, I said even though my aim sucked my results were 100%, including on four inbound pits, which generally scare the heck out of me. Every time the blast WAS close to the dog, and startled them into fleeing.
Might be the sudden strong odor startled them too, but I definitely didn't hit them with the spray. They all turned on a dime and ran.
Understand this is eight times the spray was used over literally hundreds of encounters with loose dogs. Most dogs bark from a distance, a few charge but can almost all can be bluffed off, those eight were when the dogs were still inbound anyway, ignoring me. Seemingly intent on attacking my dogs.
The problem is with bear spray is that the jet angle is like 90 degrees from the axis of the can. IMHO the natural tendency is to tilt the can towards the target, hence shooting low. That was my experience.
That last rott where I actually hit it was like six feet away while I was holding my dog close by the collar, it got sprayed full in the face, you could see it on the face of the dog afterwards. Minimal visible effect on the dog besides a brief rub in the grass once it got over the shock of the sudden blast. No whining, no sneezing/hacking/coughing, no apparent distress, just sat there next to the owners who had got it on a leash.
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the blast isnt what works on most bears anymore than a beer can works on most bears..
The hard part is trying to find a study where that was demonstrated, if you can find one, please post it here.
Only one I could find was from 1985, on black bears at a dump. The spray application seemingly gentle enough to avoid a startle effect. The reaction of like five bears hit in the eyes was to walk away. One bear kept returning and had to be sprayed point blank three times before it walked away.
I ain't saying they enjoyed it, but they didn't react much like humans would have.
Capsacin works by triggering the pain receptors in mammals, I ain't saying that bears don't have 'em but we're talking about animals that can literally stick their faces into beehives, repeatedly, and chow down on honey and larvae while the enraged bees are launching a full court press.
My experience has been the blast alone appears to work on dogs. And a good thing too, pit bulls are famously indifferent to pain, I ain't at all interested in knowing if they can ignore capsacin too.
the blast isnt what works on most bears anymore than a beer can works on most bears....
Rattler, I know the point you are making and am in agreement. But my one story using bear spray against a bear shows that there's not many hard and fast rules when it comes to bears.
I was hiking in the Sangre de Christos when a black bear cub ran across the trail in front of me. And sure enough, a few seconds later his mom and another cub that were following him stopped on the side of the trail that the first cub came from.
I was carrying a revolver but did not want to use it unless I really had to, so I took out my bear spray and fired a blast at the ground just to make sure it was pressurized. Momma heard it and ran back in the woods, and let me pass by in a hurry. So in that one case, the noise of the blast did save me from a close up bear encounter.
I know a guy who's used spray on two black bears, one only three feet away, and a blast in the face turned them right around. Dunno if it was the noise or the spray, but neither came back.
I was carrying a revolver but did not want to use it unless I really had to, so I took out my bear spray and fired a blast at the ground just to make sure it was pressurized. Momma heard it and ran back in the woods, and let me pass by in a hurry. So in that one case, the noise of the blast did save me from a close up bear encounter.
While momma bear may be terribly alarmed by a solid blast of keyboard cleaner, I'd not bet my last beer on it.
I'd wager that the olfactory senses of a bear are bit more amazing than most people realize. There's also a very real possibility that the bear you encountered caught the jalapeno-money-shot in her previous life, and had a full recollection the moment you pressed the test button.
Lots of things to consider in a variety of situations but I'm fairly confident a huge dose of cayenne will make a bear sneeze. I'm also fairly confident a 250gr. Keith to the spine will make a bear more tolerable.
Might have been a high school mate of mine. First person from our class of 1965 to die. Mauled by bear while working Glacier.
The attack occurred in 1960 on the Otokomi Lake Trail (4 miles or so from Rising Sun Campground). The ranger was Al Nelson and the boy was Smitty Parrot, whose father was a ranger. Nelson was up in a tree and saw Smitty being mauled; he jumped down and pulled the bear off him and covered Smitty with his body, suffering horrible wounds.
Dearest Travis(ty), im figuring an oxyegn depleating application of wasp fogger (ie, wasp fugger) short circuiting the breathing apparatus would be significantly distracting to the point of serious detrimental physical abilities to black or browns regardless of wheather they be of bipod or of quadrapod MOA.
Dearest Travis(ty), im figuring an oxyegn depleating application of wasp fogger (ie, wasp fugger) short ciruiting the breathing apparutus would be significantly distracting to the point of serious detrimental physical abilities to black or browns regardless of wheather they be of bipod or of quadrapod MOA.
Feel free to market a wasp fogger to the backpacking fraternity and let me know.
Might have been a high school mate of mine. First person from our class of 1965 to die. Mauled by bear while working Glacier.
The attack occurred in 1960 on the Otokomi Lake Trail (4 miles or so from Rising Sun Campground). The ranger was Al Nelson and the boy was Smitty Parrot, whose father was a ranger. Nelson was up in a tree and saw Smitty being mauled; he jumped down and pulled the bear off him and covered Smitty with his body, suffering horrible wounds.
How on the world did a man pull a bear off another man? We talking full growed grizz here?
I assure you there will be significant financial reward for you if you will agree to test the efficacy and efficiency of such a product for me, and possibly a significant share of the company should the product prove to be successful in its proposed purpose of proctecting aholes in the most formidable and dangerous of circumstances. I am eagerly awating you esteemed reply to my proposal. Yours sincerely, eye.
I assure you there will be significant financial reward for you if you will agree to test the efficacy and efficiency of such a product for me, and possibly a significant share of the company should the product prove to be successful in its proposed purpose of proctecting aholes in the most formidable and dangerous of circumstances. I am eagerly awating you esteemed reply to my proposal. Yours sincerely, eye.
Send it.
$500.00 finder's fee. (Be advised, I don't know what this means)
Dear Rancho, I extend the same generous offer to you but with the product to be provided in a pressurized cannister filled with a common commercial propellent along with a strong addition of SSS commonly known as Skin So Soft. If it repels bears as well as blood sucking mosquitoes you could expect to become a financial, uh, success and could ultimately become a hero for developing cutting edge advances in protecting certain segments of the outdoor community.
Your hero the zero has assured me his compatriots wearing it for mosquito protection in Kenya have suffered not one single shark attack in the years they have used it.
I assure you there will be significant financial reward for you if you will agree to test the efficacy and efficiency of such a product for me, and possibly a significant share of the company should the product prove to be successful in its proposed purpose of proctecting aholes in the most formidable and dangerous of circumstances. I am eagerly awating you esteemed reply to my proposal. Yours sincerely, eye.
Send it.
$500.00 finder's fee. (Be advised, I don't know what this means)
Travis
Travis, rest assured there is not one documented incident where anyone under physical assault by an Afreakin who has used the wasp spray in a judicious manner has suffered abuse sudsequent to its use.
You must certainly be aware many more people are harmed and killed in physical altercations between Afreakins and typical Amreicans than in similar altercations between Americans and bears. It seems pretty scientifically evident if a significant reduction in human/bear conflicts resulted in deatn a real contribution to the advancement in humananimality could be achieved.
Ok. I will be looking forward to that meeting since the last beer I had was with you and I'm getting kinda thirsty.
How was fishing? Any bear sign around the lake? Bears have been causing plenty of problems south of Red Lodge.
Fishing was horrible but I think that was due to the time frame of our visit to the lake. I wanted to be there early AM but it didn't pan out. Long story.
Bear sign on the trail leading to the lake. None up top.
Travis, rest assured there is not one documented incident where anyone under physical assault by an Afreakin who has used the wasp spray in a judicious manner has suffered abuse sudsequent to its use.
You must certainly be aware many more people are harmed and killed in physical altercations between Afreakins and typical Amreicans than in similar altercations between Americans and bears. It seems pretty scientifically evident if a significant reduction in human/bear conflicts resulted in deatn a real contribution to the advancement in humananimality could be achieved.
You're drunker than I am.
Never knew that was possible but I think it's true.
I'm also fairly confident a 250gr. Keith to the spine will make a bear more tolerable.
Yep. And a 250 grain Keith a couple of inches to either side of the spine will make a bear an raging maniac that will not stop until he has had his revenge.
Yep. And a 250 grain Keith a couple of inches to either side of the spine will make a bear an raging maniac that will not stop until he has had his revenge.
I've always wondered why some here seem to be so confident that they could stop a bear attack with a handgun, other than the fact that they know they'll never need to.
I'll bet almost every one of us has seen a small whitetail deer have both lungs blown out, and then run 100 yards before it drops.
Think about a grizzly closing on you at 45 ft. per second, giving you maybe a couple of seconds to aim and shoot, knowing you better hit the skull or spinal column or you're gonna get mauled.
When a person shoots a grizzly bear in a self defense situation, somebody's almost certain to die. Not so with bear spray.
then there's this.. old but applicable. with a lowly .357 and zero distance~he didn't draw until his leg was in the grizzly's mouth.
Im thinking a blast of wasp spray to the face of a black or bear may be more effective than pepper spray.
Works on the Amish....
Turns out the friggin' plain folk don't carry hardly any cash or cards neither, can't even hand you the keys 'cause there ain't any.
Three men have been charged in the attempted holdup of an Amish couple riding a buggy on their way back from church.
According to sheriff's reports, the three struck the buggy with their car before two of the men directed wasp spray at the couple and threatened them with baseball bats. They demanded money and frisked the husband, but they found he had no cash, police said.
Nearly an hour later, a sheriff's deputy spotted a car trying to force another buggy off a road in the same area. After a short chase, a car containing the suspects was pulled over and they were arrested.
I'd wager that the olfactory senses of a bear are bit more amazing than most people realize.
Prob'ly so, since they're commonly believed to be better in that regard than dogs, and dogs can detect the presence of human tumors under the skin.
I know everyone is hanging upon my every word, so this is what I think....
I think animals, even predators, have an innate startle response to sudden, unexpected major stimuli up close.
Only thing close I've seen in a bear was in my swift and skinny college days, when I was running a trail along a loud and rocky stream in the Adirondack Mts. Came around a big boulder adjacent to the stream and encountered a big male black bear coming the other way at near-contact distance.
Happened so quick I didn't even have time to get scared. First image I got was of the bear's head swinging down and around as it turned to flee. It ran off maybe forty yards and stopped and looked back, seemingly not knowing what I was. I called out to it and it ran off over a hill, scattering leaves and "huffing" with each bound. A startled bear.
This same bear was a regular each evening at the trash dump of a biological field station where I worked (this was back when people didn't worry all that much about trash bears) and was used to being observed by people not far off.
If dogs are any guide, the reaction of the seven incoming dogs I actually missed with bear spray was like throwing a switch: Aggression to flight in a fraction of a second, even in them four pit bulls, which are famously insensitive to pain when excited. I would guess, even if not directly hit, the mental switchboard of their olfactory system also lights up with the sudden strong and unfamiliar odor, further enhancing the startle effect.
Here's the 1984 study where a guy sprayed five wild bears with capsaicin, only one I can find on the 'net...
I sprayed bears that attempted to take meat from a box beside me. Five adults (4 males, 1 female) were sprayed in the eye(s) with capsaicin solution at dusk or at night from a distance of 1.5 to 3 m. All immediately blinked hard, whirled away, and fled 7 to 20 m where they stopped and rubbed their eyes with their paws for up to a minute.
They retreated maybe 7.5 to 23 yrds and "rubbed their eyes with their paws for up to a minute", no word on how long the ones that didn't react "up to a minute" were put out. The rottie I hit rubbed its face for maybe 15 seconds. One of those test bears came back tree times.
I'm sorry the guy didn't hit 'em with the eye with spray starch as a control, might have taken 'em longer to rub it off, or maybe wasp spray I dunno.
OTOH, when capsaicin isn't presented in a sudden 20ft blast, Alaskan brown bears at least seem to be attracted to the odor....
Tom Smith's experiment involved spraying several test sites in bear travel corridors with a four second burst of commercially available pepper sprays. Then he waited for bears and watched their reactions from blinds he constructed nearby. He was rewarded with a total of 40 visits from 13 different groups of brown bears.
The bears displayed no apparent response in 40% of their encounters with pepper spray, but were observed to be highly responsive in 28% of the cases. Slight or moderate responses accounted for the remaining 32%. Observed behaviors included sniffing, pawing, licking, head rubbing and 11 occurrences of bears rolling their entire body on the pepper spray residue.
Tom reported that he and his field crews had never observed bears rubbing their heads on the ground, pawing and licking soils, or rolling on their backs during more than 750 hours of time spent observing brown bears previously in the same area, and could only conclude that red pepper spray was the cause. What's more, bears were observed to react strongly to pepper spray residues that were five days old, and he speculated that effects might persist much longer.
Rest assured them bears were flooding their exquisitely sensitive olfactory equipment with the odor of capsaicin (and the associated inert carrier ingredients from the spray), and some liked it enough that they rolled in it, a behavior not previously observed.
Bears commonly raid hives full of thousands of stinging bees, and since bears used to raiding beehives will also push through live electric fencing to get to said hives, plainly a bear's response to pain differs from our own.
OK, once again, I ain't saying bear spray doesn't startle most incoming bears, plainly it does, just like them seven dogs I missed.
Friends of mine left a mix of diet pepsi and beer in a creek by a remote cabin. While they were gone, a bear raided the cache and was able to sort out the beer and leave the pepsi untouched. Pretty amazing sense of smell and good taste too.
Might have been a high school mate of mine. First person from our class of 1965 to die. Mauled by bear while working Glacier.
The attack occurred in 1960 on the Otokomi Lake Trail (4 miles or so from Rising Sun Campground). The ranger was Al Nelson and the boy was Smitty Parrot, whose father was a ranger. Nelson was up in a tree and saw Smitty being mauled; he jumped down and pulled the bear off him and covered Smitty with his body, suffering horrible wounds.
How on the world did a man pull a bear off another man? We talking full growed grizz here?
The bear was an older sow that weighed about 375 pounds. When grabbed, the bear turned on Al and mauled him. The bear was packed on a horse down to a pick-up and taken to the Craighead's lab at the UofM in Missoula, where it was weighed and examned. see: http://www.craigheadresearch.org/frank-craighead-legacy.html
The initial rescue crew consisted of about 10 trailcrew men and 4 rangers, 2 of whom were armed with Remington 721's in 300 H&H Magnum; I recall how closely to the rangers we hiked in the total darkness - only head lamps provided illumination as we himed carrying stretchers over the rocky trail.
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