Possibly I'm posting this because the "Pentecostals" thread got me thinking,but then I've been thinking along these lines for some time now. I've been saved-born again a little over 20 years now. I've reached a place where I'm just about fed up with Religion. I've always looked at religion as different than Christianity but even much more so the last 6-8 years since I've began to understand the wonderful gift that Christ really gave us,his grace and love toward us. Religion is just a system made up to try to get close to God. Christianity is God's way to get close to us,if you want to put it in a nut shell. I'm not going to make this real long though just short and to the point.

First, I want to express what I think religion is, and what I think many churches have become. It seems to me that churches are filled with people who want to do their duty to God,get their star beside their name,and get back to their business as fast as possible. Most of them think that being a Christian is about a list of rules that they have to follow. If they follow them well,Heaven,if not Hell,unless of coarse they repent with many tears and promise never to do it again. This group knows that God is in there somewhere, but mostly think he is there to judge how well they repented,or how bad they sinned. They are consumed by rules and regulations,constantly searching the scriptures for some rule or regulation that they missed,because it is by following these rules and regulations that they think they will please God. They are unfulfilled because they know in their hearts that they never give 100%,and they think they will never attain the place God wants them to be and please him in the way he wants ,until they somehow reach this unattainable goal. They however always ask you to pray for them to attain this unattainable goal, and pray that you will attain it also.

Now let me say very simply what Christianity is. God made man. Man messed up. Man couldn't fix it,but God couldn't fix it for him because it was his responsibility to fix. God knew man couldn't fix his own problem ,so he became a man and fixed it himself. All man has to do now is trust that God fixed his problem and live like it's fixed. It really is that simple. All God wants is for us to trust him,love him,and love each other.

Church should be a celebration about what Jesus has done for us and a place where we can learn how to better love each other. It should be a place where we could learn all about what Jesus did for us,is doing for us,and is going to do for us. It should be a place where we can have all our spiritual needs taken care of and talk about the best way to take care of our physical and emotional needs as well.

Maybe God's moving me in this direction. I guess we will see.

Preaching and soul searching is putting me to sleep.

I just about refuse to be part of any "religion" but I'm a steadfast church goer. Found a home yrs ago and so far it hasn't let me down. Non-denominational, just Church. Not worried about fancy buildings or repaving parking lots, just church. An old large single story factory building bought off the bank for a song and rooms partitioned off and fixed up as needed at each stage of needing more rooms. It's grown and grown. Got to the point there was not enough room in the large sanctuary so they went to 2 services several yrs ago. See everybody from wealthy people to people right off the streets and everyone in between. Our pastor tells us all the time that this church is not for us but for those that need it. Basically the sick and oppressed, and depressed, and addicted, etc. Like a hospital for the unsaved. If you expect to go to that church and just be comfortable you will likely be moving on. I've heard the pastor say more than once if you are going to be complaining about stuff that doesn't matter....who sits where, who dresses how, what songs are played, how so and so offended you, etc. Just leave, we need your seat. Lol. That church does a heck of a lot of good in changing peoples lives and I'm happy to be a part of it.

The time's coming, and likely sooner than many think, when the real Christian church will be driven underground and the visible churches won't be preaching the word. Any church that preaches gay marriage and other sexual deviation is already outside of the Bible and it'll get a lot worse.

You must have needed the rest. Good night.

Guess you type in your sleep. Or maybe that's hype in your sleep.

You are referring of course to "legalism" which in any form is a man (me for instance) or women trying to figure out what they can do to merit eternal favor, whether it's doing "this 'r that" or "just being a pretty good guy, and, doggoneit, people like me." Yes, the world is full of these folk whether churched or unchurched. I never could understand folks thinking their idea of being "a good guy" was somehow the standard that the God of creation would relent to and accept.

I also often hear and read critical and deprecating comments about Christians here. In good measure some of its true -- it's why we recognize we need a savior; we all are flawed creatures but Christians recognize it on a personal level. And then there are those who believe but decry the notion of a room full of deplorables -- the church. Well, it's because we are instructed that believers form a body, a community of believers that help and support each other in myriad ways.

Then there are even those who deny the existence of God and for whom all of the above is complete nonsense. Well, the body of knowledge now in science, history, archeology, and philosophy has tipped the scales against your personal rejection of a God to whom you will be accountable.

Henry Morris PhD, a Christian and a geologist echoed Romans 1:19-20 when he said," acknowledging a creator by considering the natural world cannot save us (because it doesn't present the gospel) but it surely can condemn us because no one will have an excuse."

God's redemptive plan equals Jesus, God, who became a perfect man to be sacrificed for our sins to redeem us before a perfectly holy and just God. Free for us but we will never wholly realize the cost of it to the God of the universe.

Such is of the greatest love.

I,m sad to think you may be correct Rock. Our church is in the red $10,000, and they hire carpets cleaned for another $2400. It's not all about religion, but raising funds as well.

I think you are right. We are on the edge -- whether sharp or a long-sloping dull -- of a very dark and long night.

Very good observation.
However, make no mistake, God wants us to worship him and to make sacrifices for him. The first commandment is to love God with your whole heart and mind.

Like marriage, without love religion is just a bunch of stifling rules.

I think I mentioned that God wants us to love him, but even the commandments were all fulfilled by Jesus. In Him we too have already fulfilled every commandment. Our love toward him now is not a command but a fruit that grows from the connection to(him) the vine.

Methinks He'd prefer us to love one another. Can't imagine a guy that can make a platypus and a solar system is loosing sleep over someone not burning an ox for him.

Ha! If you think Christians are about rules, check out the Jewish faith....... You've got nothing until you see that legalism.

Organized religion is not about God or works or even money. It is about control over other people. I'm allergic to organized religion.

I don't want to get too pedantic, but "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

i'm learning to not reply in too much detail in these types of threads, lest my honest perceptions and understandings might cause the bristles on the back of the necks of certain members of certain sects to stand up.

but beyond the nitty, gritty details, i think the RC man is pretty much correct in his assessment of change sweeping through Christendom as we speak. only time will reveal how it all turns out.

if we fall into the abyss likely god will be greatly disappointed. on the other hand if we finally get to the point of re-joining w/god, i feel pretty certain he'll be joyous as will we.

It's been said a thousand times.
The biggest problem with"christianity" is christians.
Churches have become businesses for pastors and their extended family to line their own pockets, nearly tax free.
Lots of churches 'round here employ the dad, mom, kid(s) and in-laws.

God wants us to love him with your whole heart and mind. He wants us to accept him into our heart and let him guide us with his words.

Yes,and if we were living under that Law, that would be correct,and it was correct when Jesus said that,having been asked a question about that Law,but Hebrews chapter 7 and 8 tells how that the Old Covenant of Law has passed away to be replaced by a New Covenant of grace.This New Covenant is not conditional,but God says that he will be merciful to our unrighteousness and will no longer remember our sins and iniquities. If you don't agree or yet understand that,that's OK,You can study it out for yourself and accept what I'm saying or not. I appreciate you though and I don't want to turn this into an argument.

Seems you have it about right. You must be an old school Baptist.

Yep, even bowhunters.

Billboards. Let us save your soul and the tahoe payment is due.

Shade Tree I would like your church. It may be big, but they seem to get what's important. A lifelong, non-denominational, conservative, fundmentalist,
sometimes big churches get caught up in the activities, and pomp.

R.H. Clark, churches are made of people. They will always have warts and problems, I struggle to remind myself of that. And make sure I am not one of the problems.

This very thing has turned hundreds of thousands of people away from attending a 'church'!!

Every Tom, Dick, and Harry that can't drive a nail or fix a leaking faucet.....decides to become a Preacher!!

Remembering this, that that grace depends on certain conditions, though His love is unconditional.

Matthew 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, 'LORD, LORD,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'LORD, LORD, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Where do you think we got it from? Most of the "legalism" people refer to is a misinterpretation and misapplication of the Old Testament and its relationship to the New. It started in Paul's day and never stopped.

Finally,a kindred spirit. Yes, all of the OT was rules and regulations showing what it would take to be perfect and the sacrifices needed when those rules and regulations were broken. God never gave any of it for man to live by. It was only to prove to man that he couldn't live perfect and that he would have to rely on a sacrifice. All of it was to prove to man that he needed Jesus and to show that he would have to rely on Jesus to be right with God. Yet we who call ourselves Christian still try to mix that law with the grace Christ gave.

Yes,the condition being knowing Him,though many will say it is doing the will of God,which they will interpret as the Law. Jesus said however that it was God's will that none perish,so being saved is also the will of God.

Folks should pay attention to your words, there's a great deal of truth there.

Ed

They've stayed true to form so far......the pastor and his wife live in a modest house by any standards, and both work. The biggest money that goes out the door from that church goes towards helping the community in one form or another. Food programs, a recovery building the church built for battered women, etc.

Not necessarily wrong if the pastor only works for the church,as long as he is busy. Many have become overworked trying to hold down two full time jobs. I wish them the best.

T

The pastor does part time work, I believe his wife works pretty much full time. The church is well staffed on all fronts so I don't believe he's over stressed or over worked with all the church programs going on, which is good because he's good at what he does and it takes a lot of wheels in place to keep everything moving forward.

That is funny to me. I know every situation is different. My best pal of 30 years gave up a pretty good career in IT to pastor a small Baptist church in South Georgia. He works more hours, makes less money, and puts up with a metric crap ton of crap every day. I'd be a garbage man or pick up cans on the side of the road before I would put up with what he puts up with.

Me thinks you're a lot smarter than most "Christians", You can't truly love God without doing so.

There are things man can do to please God., but they are not actions for the sake of finding favor with God.
those who think that whats required to please God will also somehow assist in finding favor with God ,
are misguided.

It pleases God to have faith;

Hebrews 11:6
"And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is
and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him."

John 8:9
"And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him."




I understand it to be the opposite, i.e.; the given way for man to get closer to Him.
and I understand that doing so ,following such instruction, would also please Him.

This about wraps it up.

Its all about fleecing the flock, and it seems ridiculously easy to do...

I dont know.. the 6000+ other religions in the world also sounds compelling to me.

Ingwe, Yes some who claim be be Christian are anything but, and the same goes for some churches. Having said that I ask you, Who do you say Jesus Christ is?

Greed and fear make the fleecing easy. Fear of dying, and greed for an ever lasting paradise after death.

AS, dont forget their lust...

Lust is a psychological force producing intense want/desire...the easiest kind of people to sell something to..

Now you're pushing it.

Ha.

ingwe;
Good evening to you sir, I'm hoping that the smoke from our province being on fire hasn't blown south too, too much across the medicine line this year. If it has, please know we're doing our level best to curtail it, but somehow it's been one of those years, you know?

As you well know about me, I'm not about trying to convert or convince anyone to the my way of thinking - and as I told a co-worker the other day, my personal beliefs are just a crutch because I couldn't handle booze...

Anyway I'd opine that IF we do church right, then it should have a visible positive impact on our community. Truly we can have a positive impact on our respective communities as individuals, but it strikes me that if there are a group of individuals who have a common goal then we SHOULD be able to have a greater impact than as individuals.

Where we fall down, in my view, is when we become unclear on the concept and loose sight of the goal.

Personally speaking, I'd opine that when church management are enriching themselves monetarily from any church activity, then they have absolutely lost sight of the goal.

Honestly, I believe that whether or not we believe in any sort of deity, be it a cosmic muffin or whatever we choose, our goal as humans SHOULD be making good replacement humans if we choose to procreate as well as have a positive impact on those around us too. If we don't make replacements, then we're back to point number one.

Anyway as always that's just one short guy's thoughts on the subject being discussed ingwe, worth only what the good readers paid to pass over the words.

All the best to you and yours this summer sir, hopefully the fires abate up here and don't migrate into your part of the world.

Dwayne

Yea, specilly if u wanna b a cow, if yer lucky.

Ur crew, howsever, seems ta be leanin more to the 72 vurgen crew.

I just worry about myself and my family, and how we are living our lives, as ultimately that is who I am responsible for. Could care less how other folks live there lives, whether they claim to be christians or not. Nobody makes me look bad or good except me, and I don't care what folks think. Everyone will face judgement and everything will be sorted out in the end. Excuses will mean nothing when the creator of the universe examines our lives and holds us in account. If a church sucks, I leave. Never had a church force me to do anything, or force me to write a check which I happily write anyway.

I don't remember ever meeting someone like the above.



Does obedience to the New Testament fit in here?



I never met a group like this.




God wanted you to obey His Word from the first day. I wish you success in your journey.

Why? If there is no "sort of deity"?

That's funny my friend. Who would have ever guessed that the need for obedience would be what you would get from my post?

Works vs. Grace.

20 Passages supporting each position would be a chip shot. A good Theologian could probably find 100 quotes on each side of this question.

I said that Christianity was God's way to get close to us because we weren't seeking him. Rom.3:11 declares just that,there are none seeking after God. You see we weren't looking or seeking. We were dead in our sins when Jesus came and saved us. Rom.5:8 While we were sinners God commanded his love toward us and Christ died for us.

Yes,faith pleases God. How could God be pleased if we would not receive what he has done for us? For that matter how can you please anyone unless you believe them?

Ringman;
Good evening to you sir, I trust all is well with you and yours tonight and that you're staying cool enough.

If there is no deity and what we see and know here is all that there is, then it would still behoove us to create good replacements as I believe they'd then be more likely to take care of us in our old age when we can no longer do so on our own.

Those who know me personally know that I very much believe in a deity/creator, so the above fits into what I've come to understand as my role as a servant to that creator.

Either way it seems like a logical course of action to me though.

Hopefully that made sense, all the best to you for the remaining days of summer.

Dwayne

Not from me, on this one, my pot stirrer friend. I think you already know where I stand.

This^^^^. Dogs dont worry about it.

In the Holy Bible, God has given rather clear instructions for the Christian life. Those relate to the individual, although they can be lived and applied as a body of believers.

When we make stuff up in His name, it is a bad mistake.

So clear that there's thousands of different denominations of Christians.

I try and not follow a religion. Religions are mostly a man thing. I try and follow Christ in and covenant of Grace given. This is why everything, and I mean every single thing, any man says, preacher or otherwise, is subject to review under the scriptures. You will find that doctrines not directly stated in scripture are mostly inferred by man to his own end.

But then again I am a literalist who reads scripture with literary integrity. I reject versification as it allows people to sew together what God did not intend. A verse is a reference point, nothing more. No verse stands on it's own. Start at that verse for reference then broaden out to find the beginning to the end of the subject matter.

I take into account who the audience was and what the culture was. For example, every thing Jesus said, except to the Sumerian woman at the well, was to Jews living under the law that had not been fulfilled yet. He taught the Jews the spirit of the law where before they had held only to the text. The Jews held to an external law, Jesus showed it was meant to become internal. Then he made it internal with the covenant of Grace.

I do not believe the books of Jesus's ministry, Matthew, Mark Luke and John, are truly the New Testament but rather the conclusion of the Old Testament, the fulfillment of prophecy. The New Testament really doesn't start until the book of Acts. The new covenant not given until the day of Pentecost and the coming of the Holy spirit.

I like that!

I am a more than a little annoyed by the God Whom I serve. My wife whom I have prayed for almost everyday and sometimes several times a day is still a type 2 diabetic. God tells us He will heal those whom we anoint with oil and pray over them. I have seen lots of instant healing; even in my own family. And yet not her. We are generally staying cool, though. The air conditioner in the house and car work. I hope thing are going well for you and yours also.

I am entertained by your response. Your worldview predisposes you to think good offspring with take care of you. I read Eskimos take care of their aged by taking them out from the group and letting nature takes it course. They may believe in a deity, but they don't believe in the Only Deity that matters. As a servant of the Only Deity Who matters I agree with you about replacements. God never rescinded , "Be fruitful and fill the earth."

Like you appear to do, there are religious people who take thing out of context and dupe others into following them.

To answer one of your other questions....Without Grace there would be no works. God, by His Grace grants works to eternal life. I get this from 2 Timothy 2 where Apostle Paul writes something about God granting Grace to repentance. Repentance is a work in one's life.

And RH disagree's with you regarding Grace vs. works. Like I said, 100 verses on each side of this question.

He casts his bait again.

Ah, the grace/works paradox.

Simply, works as if spreading the Spirit are not done in order to obtain Grace but because of it.

But we have to recognize that people do great things on their own. An atheisst can be a charitable person and do everything God calls us Christians to do. But that does not bring salvation, ever.

As we talk about God and his Grace, the Satan and is maliciousness, we tend to forget that there are three spirits in this mix. Man is a spirit in this mix and can choose good or evil all on his own. I think when God said, " Let us make man in our own image" He was not saying that he himself has legs, arms, hands, finger and toes because a spirit with the power to speak things into existence needs none of those. I think He meant creating man with a self determining will, like His. That will can take any direction without influence from either God or Satan all on its own.

Christianity is not a religion but rather a relationship with Jesus Christ. Salvation is a very personal and individual matter. It is not contingent upon church membership or something that can be relegated to another person or church system.

Our "works" reveal the object of our faith (which is Christ). Works don't justify us before God but reveal to whom or what the object of our faith is. Good works are fruits of the Holy Spirit. Our "work" is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. The gospel of Christ is a message of grace alone. We are saved by the grace of God through Jesus Christ. It's that simple, and it's a free gift. That is the only way to salvation.

Consider this... Jesus was the beginning of the creation of God. He had fingers and toes and the other things you mentioned, as well as a spirit. So we look like God and we act like God in that we have free will and do in fact "create" things. The difference we create in our minds from nothing but execute them in the world with stuff. The stuff could be wood or steel or written word in a book or essay.

Maybe you here illustrate the difference between the wisdom and strength of God and the silliness and weakness of mankind.

Man persisting in justifying his on way and leaning on his own understanding and, of course, that understanding influenced by his own desire.

People hundreds of years ago didnt understand bacteria or lightening, which could still kill them, and did.

Too many churches have fallen under the influence of the almighty dollar, thinking that's what it's all about. Same way with some church goers as well. There's a couple who attend the same church that I go to. They give to the church......but it's usually things that they can also use as a tax write off. They have even gone so far as to keep up with their mileage to and from church, and take that off as "charity". For some reason, I think they are attending church for the wrong reason. Times change, so does "religion". The church services that I attended 50 years ago, are much different from services today. Too many churches, religions, take your pick, have customized their message so as to cater to their members......and keep the money coming in. Same way on the issue of homosexuality and same sex marriage.

I think it's only natural for a Christian to have doubts about religion, and the direction they are going in. I have, many times too. I'm still not sure about everything, and will probably die having my doubts. But, I do believe that if you love the Lord with all your heart and soul, and do your best to live as He wants you to, then the rest will not matter as much as you might think it would.

I can't seem to get the quote function to work this morning, but I think your post about the scriptures is a good illustration of a point I've made many times on these type threads.

Since pretty much ALL theology, and definitely ALL the rules for "churches" come from Paul's writing, shouldn't those writings be subject to a critical review by any honest seeker of Gods will for Mankind in general, not as individuals?

Without Paul we would not have the doctrine of original sin which necessitates the doctrine of an immaculate conception.

Doesnt Jesus giving the two Great Commandmants stand in sharp contrast to all of Paul's contorted reasoning?

Those of you who yoke Jesus with Paul are following the Roman Church of the fourth century instead of Jesus.

That's your business, of course, but it is my business to offer an alternative view for those who reject your ideas.

Don't drive near a Mega christian church on Sunday morn.... the " worshipers" will run over you in their hurry to get inside and socialize.

It appears driving ability, and curtesy, is over run by the zeal to worship.

You are truly a SPECIAL child of God.

Not so great of contrast that any of Jesus' apostles saw fit to correct him. Indeed, they listened to him, judged his teachings, and determined they were in harmony with what Jesus taught.

Agree.

Most Christians think of the Day of Pentecost that you are referring which was the birthday of the church as the first one. But Pentecost is Greek for the Jewish word Shavuot which is the feast of weeks, in which they celebrate the giving of the Law at Mount Sinai. That was the first one. That is what the Apostles, being Jews, were celebrating.

You know the story. Moses was up on the mountain, and the people thinking him dead started worshiping a golden calf idol. All hell broke loose when he got back and found out what was going on. About 3,000 of them died for their mistake. God gave the law from Mount Sinai with fire and thunder.

Fast forward to the day of Pentecost (Shavuot) in the book of Acts. The Holy Spirit came into the world with "a rushing mighty wind" and "tongues of fire" sat on the Apostles. Afterward, the Apostle Peter went out and announced to the crowd (also Jews) Jesus as both God and Messiah. What happened next? About 3000 people believed what he had to say and were saved!

Thus the law of the New Covenant of Jesus Christ was issued in with beautiful symbolism, and the law of the old covenant was superseded.

I am Catholic and a believer in Catholicism. I believe that something warms your heart it is God speaking g to you and these little things make most people quite grateful. God gave us free choice and hopes the choices you make warm your heart along the way. If a choice creates anger , jealousy , fear...it is not him speaking. I don't think that faith is religion either.I am not religious-don't care for the term

You ever read Genesis Three?

Yep......
Never noticed anything about an immaculate conception where the Mother of God, her mother and on back thru the ages had to be sinless.

The Creator of the universe will not be harnessed verbatim to words written by men who were only getting a glimpse of Divinity and filling in the blanks with their imaginings. To this day it is all we are capable of.

You would do well to lay aside your bible and do as Peter suggested......... study YOUR conscience " as to a light shining in a dark place" and leave off counseling others.

I seem to recall Peter giving him a vote of confidence while admitting that Paul was hard to understand.That is the opposite of the teachings ascribed to Jesus.

I'll admit that if I was trying to establish a State Religion for Rome in an he fourth century, I'd latch onto all of Paul's writings also.

since all the heavy hitters are weighing in, might be time for a pinch hitter or two just to add a dollop of gravity.

god acting under and in his capacity of omneity can and will save anyone and everyone whom he chooses to save, no?

even if someone doesn't want to be saved, if god wants him/her to be saved, he'll find a way to pull the effort off in his favor.

omneity is such a concept that it almost allows for anything, as long as god's will is achieved. and his will shall almost certainly be achieved.

i guess this is where five-point, or at least three point calvinism raises its ugly little head, but to the denial of many who walk among us. the Elect???

Steelhead, I'm not critizing here but am sometimes easily confused. Your comments seem to twist and turn when it comes to Christianity or Christians as if you are a schizophrenic on this subject due maybe to a very bad experience (?).

Here, you seem to acknowledge God and that you think he'd have us love one another while elsewhere you will respond to someone with ridicule, derision and then the finisher: a sarcastic "prayers sent."

You're doing a lot of adding to the Word there. The Catholics believe in the un-Biblical "immaculate conception. None of Apostle Paul's works today even hint of that.

Somehow along the way you have been deceived to think you conscience is better than God's Word. God tells us He sends a deluding influence on those who wish to believe a lie.

As far as Apostle Peter is concerned you are taking some major liberties. He says about the things Paul writes in 2 Peter 3:14-16:

"Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction."

We see Peter is including Paul's writing in Scripture.

All human institutions, be they governments, universities, hospitals, corporations, whatever, seem to eventually grow to the point where the perpetuation of the organization becomes paramount; instead of the purpose for which the organization was founded to begin with. Our churches are no different, but that doesn't change the fact that Christ died for our sins and that we need to regularly join together as believers to give thanks for that and to learn more about Him. I suspect that many use the imperfection of church as an excuse to not attend. I don't care who you are, you are not going to learn as much about the Bible (and therefore about God/Christ) if you stay away. In a way, the Campfire is similar to a church. None here are perfect, all see things differently, but we are united by a common interest. We gather here on the Fire to exchange information and opinions, to learn from each other, and to encourage each other in our daily lives (except there is no one here worthy of worship). I have learned much more than I would have had I not started visiting here. Same with church. Don't expect to like everyone there and for everyone there to see things the way you do, and don't expect to be in complete agreement with everything you hear. Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

And that is when I stopped reading.

You need to read Jesus a little closer. When asked why He spoke in parables He told them He speaks in parables so they don't understand and be converted. You need to repent and turn with an honest and open heart to THE Jesus of the Bible, not one of your imagination.

A work in progress. Innate knowledge battling with the worldly man?

Remember, Ringman doesnt have a "lovable figure", either.

Gus, you are delving into predestination (and Calvinism) -- interesting -- and a concept I believe is almost always confusing to the human mind. I'm sure God doesn't save someone who doesn't want to be saved which would be a contradiction of wills. He doesn't force anything on us but rather leaves us to our desires, lusts, and whatever other devious devices we may come up with. He will give the man or women who continually rejects him and accountability to him over to his unbelief until he might not ever to be able change his ways.

Our choices as free moral agents (like the angels) are completely on us. Where our free choices interface with God's choosing and sovereignty can be a difficult concept to understand.

Why? Do you not believe that men can become Biblialators? It is a word I learned from Ken Howell.

I'm glad you bolded that part. It makes it obvious that it doesn't fit the rest of the passage.

To start with, the part you have quoted me on are not my words.... they are yours.

For all of you who worship the Bible rather than Jesus and who constantly warn me about " leaning on my own understanding," I offer this:

You are relying on your own understanding or on a concordance. If not, you need to be handling snakes, washing feet, and all the other things you ridicule others for.

And you should join a commune and kick out all of he non productive members who can't work.

It is only because of my Christ like aspirations that I don't post my preferred response........ kiss my ass.😊

Edited for correction.... it was Barry C who you quoted.

That's a new word for me. I suspect I know what you mean though. I've met those who could quote many scriptures and they did know the letter,but the Spirit escaped them completely.

The things you say about Paul however bother me very much. For me Paul is a beloved Apostle,second only to Jesus. He has made me understand everything that happened at the new birth and all Christ has given me. I can only hope that you have somehow misunderstood Paul. I like many of the things you say contrasted greatly with other things you say. The things I agree with you about give me hope that if you could only see Paul's teachings the same way I do you would feel the same way I feel about his ministry.

Friend Clark, I used to beli vet as you do about Paul. Then I considered the fruits of his teachings and compared his teachings to the words ascribed to Jesus. Most of the division we see in Christianity can be laid at the feet of Paul.

I consider him a well intentioned Jew who could not get his head around the simplicity of the Gospel.

We need a lot more Johns and fewer Paul's.

I like John too. For now we will just disagree,but I am still glad to be called friend.

My best to you my friend.

No, I believe you to be in obvious error based on the false statements you made about the Apostle Paul and his relationship to the Roman Church centuries after his death. Paul believed that Jesus was born of a virgin but nowhere taught that Mary was to be worshiped as deity, was a perpetual virgin, never sinned, etc. You will not find support for any of that in Paul's writings. That came along later when the church was paganized after Constantine. Pagan goddess worship became Mary worship.

You will never find in any of Paul's writings the idea of a human priesthood. He taught that Jesus Christ is the great high priest of his church and it is to him we confess sins.

If you actually had read Paul, which I don't believe you have, you would know that pretty much everything that went on when Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire flew in the face of everything he stood for. He would not be very fond of what is going on today either IMO.

Our disagreement is not one of theology but simple easily verifiable fact.

Did Paul teach Original Sin? That we are born sinful because of Adam and thus need a sinless Saviour?

Yes he did.

These Christianity threads really tear me up. Brings out the thumpers and the hypocrites like bees to nectar. I've been here long enough to remember the Christ At The Campfire forum as well as the reason for it's demise. Most of those idiots if not all are still here.

Praise Gawd !!!!!

AMEN - AMEN - AMEN

Did any of the other writers teach that? Did John the Baptist preach that? Did Jesus think that when He said:" Be ye perfect as I am perfect"?

Original Sin Doctrine leads directly to Immaculate Conception Doctrine thus Paul IS the author of that flawed teaching.

They draw in the atheists in like manner which always amuses me as well.

Have a blessed day!

One particular group was targeted ad nauseum.

Bring them bible quotes on, fellas .


Thump, thump, thump, thump,......

As soon as you complete your penance you will no longer be required to open these threads.

And the first to go on the defensive, LOL

the problem, if there is one, is that each of us have our own views, interpretations, and understandings. and then if we're disagreed with, it's in effect an issue of my way or the hi-way. and the islamcists have the same issue. the sheiites and sunnis are at each other's throats far more than we are at each other's throats. at least now in the latter-days.

i don't know that we'll ever get it resolved to such a fine point that there's general agreement. there's not enough information available for the most part, allowing too much space or room for personal or denominational interpretation. strongmen (and women) can lead crowds of followers. and then the clashes began.

I have to admit that I do not understand what you believe or how you came to the place you are. Please do not take offense at my debate with you.

Cur dog,



This place is my friggin' penance.

I imagine much like the Purg.....betwixt heaven and hell.

You might have a little bit too much time on your hands.

Just a simple question here: why are you here then again?

Just running it back to the religious zealots here that killed a great forum with their behavior. Please don't shoot the messenger.

I typically avoid religious discussions here, but I can agree with this. There's a lot to be said for a simple and basic message and a simple and basic way of sharing and living it. On the whole, how we treat others will generally show where our hearts are better than anything else.

I reckon Einstein had his own thoughts. In a letter a year before his death.



" The word of God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weakness, the Bible a collection of honorable but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish."

his thoughts on the jewish religion,

"For me , the Jewish Religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions."

I will admit people need something to believe, obviously.

Ok; my comment was not meant to say "you're not welcome." I agree that some of those who are most ardent about their religion are some of the most closed-minded, prickly folks around.

Of course the same is true of some of those unbelievers who are so sure of what they are ignorant of. 🤔😉

No offense Neighbor. What I believe-in a nutshell- is that if we have a relationship with the Risen Jesus we don't require an inerrant Bible.

If we open our minds to His teachings we don't learn much about God but we learn much about ourselves. Framed in that new knowledge the Bible becomes more useful. There are no sins available to me that could not be committed by a first century man.

One caveat to this approach is that the knowledge gained is for the individual and may not be a fit for the next guy.

Everyone has a God concept...... even the denial by an Atheist is a God concept. That concept should be measured by only one measure....... how's it working for you?

If your beliefs enable you to more closely follow the Two Great Commandments and if it brings that "peace that passes all understanding" then your beliefs are true.

For you. We are created,not cloned.

Yeah, I'd say CCCC summed it up rather succinctly.

Theologian John Walvoord mentioned that apostate, liberal evangelicals tend to remove truths from the word of God while theologian McGee posited that apostate, ultra-conservatives tend to add things to the word of God as in legalism. Both are equally dangerous and wrong.

So, do you really believe that "how's it working for you?" is the standard that the God of the universe will assent to at the judgement?

And, if the Bible isn't inerrant, how do you know Jesus was God or that he arose from the dead? How do you even know the gospel is true or that the "two great commandments" are not the ravings of a 2000 BC tribal ruler?

Can one get the peace I mentioned from a source other than God?

I consider th bible just as I consider my friends...... they are not always right in my opinion but we can disagree amicably.

Ascribing inerrancy to the Bible is really claiming inerrancy for a bunch of Fourth Century guys who were trying to cobble together something that would suit the King who was establishing a State Religion.

Sola Scriptura is about as un-Biblical as it gets. It is not in the Bible. It is not even part of Apostolic Tradition. It's a heresy totally made up by a guy 1400+ years after the fact.

Would you support that from God's Word, please, for an old Bible thumper? If not, then upon what do you base it?

You are demanding that he prove a negative. Google " sola scriptura " and you will find a well written denunciation of the idea in one of the links offered, complete with supporting scripture.

It is one area where I agree with Roman Catholicism except the role they assign to their church I believe is properly the role of the Holy Spirit.

Were it not for the fact that your idiocy about firearms matters is regularly displayed on this forum, someone might take your religious proclamations seriously.

For purposes of clarity and understanding, are you catholic or Roman Catholic in your beliefs/practices?

You are contradicting yourself. You say it can't be proved because it's a negative and then suggest I read "a well written denunciation of the idea."

There is a lot. Mainly that the Bible itself specifically refutes Sola Scriptura.

Then you can get into more nuanced arguments. http://catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/sola.htm

I understand what you said, but I dont believe God is far away from man, rather that man in his ways is far away from God.
If people would inward seek rather than outward seek, they may find that they dont have that far to go to find him...He's right
there and keeps knocking all the time inviting people in...

Hence why I said its really up to man himself to find Him for himself, not much else God can do but wait for man to respond,
cause he aint gunna bash the door down and drag anybody in.

BarryC,

I was thinking of Sola Scriptura as Luther used it. You are using the Scripture to show there are things that are not recorded in Scripture. At the end of John we are taught the world could not contain all the books that would be written if all that Jesus did was written down. Today we can't use what was not written down. Most don't use what IS written.

Dwayne: I would love to share a real Campfire with you, any time, any where....wish more "Christians" were like you...

You are presuming a god, that fits a specific definition exists. Of course you will never define that god, nor issue an argument for his alleged existence.

And they blamed it on evil spirits, demons, and the devil, and were wrong.

James,

The only reason ANY Christian denominations still exist is they've been contentiously tailoring their messages to their customer for the last 2000 years.

Except 2nd Peter wasn't written by the same person who wrote 1st Peter.

Gene is on to something about the influence of fallible men upon the scriptures.

Well if it wasn't the devil and his demons killing people, it was an angry revengeful God firing up volcanoes to snuff people out...

devil used to work for God , So I can see where he gets his sinister ideas from...

To support your assertion about my presumption, kindly pluck from my posts the specific definition I have given - and post it here. Absent that, it appears that you have presumed a presumption.

And some of the most divisive passages in the Bible are ascribed to Paul, but where not written by the same person who wrote Romans, and the other uncontested letters.

And you know this how?

In the Book of Job God puts him up to it.

So you are claiming he's indefinable?

You really need to learn about Textual Criticism.

Grateful to have found a congregation (and, as far as can be realistic, a denomination) that does what you describe reasonably from my point of view.

I tend to believe that the depravity of man is generally concentrated rather than diluted in groups.

As soon as a (relatively small) group breaks off the whole, their grievances with their former institution fade and their issues with one another come to the fore, and they begin their descent which is usually precipitated by a need for acceptance from someone other than God.

Put not your trust in princes or bishops or elders or deacons or preachers or saints or scientists or whomever.

There is One Lord of the Universe, praise His life-giving name.

Laffin. You certainly are squeaky clean in this regard.

This cat aside. IMHO, what God is interested in today is what we are doing for him. It's about service to our fellow man. We are called to serve, not just study scripture. Evangelism is certainly important, as is serving those in need. MANY Christians and Christian organizations exhaust themselves in serving folks in need. It is easy for some of the dead asses around here to criticize, when Christians around the country will be busting their butt to help others throughout this weekend. We have folks in the inferno that is known as eastern N.C., this weekend, helping folks that were flooded in Hurricane Matthew last year. Just imagine working all day in mid 90s, in a house with no air conditioning. Some weekend huh? That is the kind of thing that Christians do in a regular basis. The volunteer effort is massive and the dead asses can't honestly deny it. That said, we clearly need to do more. It is our calling as Christians.

Ooops - there you go again - attempting to place words on my tongue or thoughts in my brain. You know full well that I made no such claim. You pretended that I presumed a specific definition of God - but you can't produce that, so you shift to a different misrepresentation. Come on - you are a bright fellow - you can do better than that.

Ha. True that.

nope. We are all born of the flesh.

Ah, yes, I wanted to use that passage, but I forgot about it. Old I guess.
But, yes we CAN use what was not written. It's called Apostolic Tradition and the Catholic Church is the only church to maintain the fullness of that tradition.
Paul said "I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you" (1 Cor. 11:2), and "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thess. 2:15) are just a couple.

As far as who wrote what......... I can't say that it makes me any difference. SOMEBODY thought it and wrote it and it makes sense. It makes sense because it fits the simplicity of the Jesus message.You may ask what I believe the Jesus message to be so I'll answer before you ask..........

"All you need to know is ME".

Your recent posts have descended into the area of a Liberal.

Your recent posts have descended into the area of a Liberal.

At the same time we are not to add to Scripture; which is what you are espousing.

Excellent.

Love these threads!

They tell you way more about Christianity than you'll ever get from the Bible....

It's a binary question. Either you can define that which you claim is god, or you can't. If you can't define it, there's not good reason to believe it exist.

Of course you are just taking the art of moving the goal posts to a new level by not even acknowledging they may exist.

An existance of flesh and blood does not necessitate the existence of a god.

Gene,

If some way you sound like an old Gnostic, receiving his direct revelations from Jesus. Of course since many claimed they could receive direct revelations, just like Paul did, it lead to something on the order fo over 300 Gnostic Text, before as you mentioned early, Constantine decided Christianity needed to be standardized, and his government picked the winners and looses in this battle of Faith.

If we accept that we are the product of an Infinite Creative Force, which deserves to be called God, then the only legitimate question we face is " why".

If we are not a product of that force then there are a myriad of questions to be answered and the final one will still remain........"why".

We don't know how many different gnostic sects there were. I might well have fit in one of them.

The difference is that I believe the revelation is available to anyone with an open mind.

A God who can't reveal himself to any honest seeker is not worthy of being called God.

I believe Jesus founded His Fellowship (not church) on the premise that the "Father" could reveal the Son to whomever He chose.... just as He did with Peter, and earlier with John the Baptist, then later with Paul.

Anyone calling themselves a "Christian" should have recieved that revelation.

If you mean Classic Liberal, and not the modern definition, yes I'll accept that. If telling someone they need to expand the scope of their education and knowledge to better understand that of which they speak, than yes, I'm guilty.

Many of your belief about the world we live in are off by ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE. Your belief regard the age of the earth is nearly off by a factor of A MILLION. It's as if you believed the moon as a mere 300 yards from the earth, and with a good swing of a driver you could hit it with a golf ball.

If believing that in the age of nuclear power, The Large Hadron Collider, , cell phones, The Internet, and Amazon.com we can critically analyze the texts of brutal bronze age warlords without attributing them to a mythical creator of this universe and blindly following them, then yes, I am a Classic Liberal. We believe in education.

You, on the other hand, remain a hidebound Young Earth Creationist.

your comments seem to afford human beings more (or greater) power and control than we actually possess. we are creatures of creation, that is we have genetics composed of chemical matter that possesses electrical valence. that means we can do no more than our basic design allows us to do. we have been influenced by environment and knowledge/learning as "constraints" on genetics. you might well agree with me up to this point.

but, if god is truly omneity, then he can lift the heaviest rock, so to speak. nothing can outshadow his wishes, demands, desires. he is omneity afterall, and we're nothing but filthy rags as my grandmom might declare. so, lot's of predestination (& re-incarnation) talk in the early christian sects/cults/groups/churches i believe. they got left out as the evolution of the church continued, lot's of it under state control. what wasn't popular or acceptable to the ldrshp had to hit the hi-way, so to speak. anyways, yes predestination is quite the interesting subject. some go so far as to say that some individuals arrive on earth already saved, some are saved while currently on the earth, and a third group will be saved later on as the process continues to unfold. i guess we'll find out sooner or later, or maybe not.

Before we accept that we are the product of an intelligent infinite create force, we need evidence for it. Even if you accept the Kalam Cosmological Argument, which I don't because it rests upon the fallacy of special pleading, it only gets you to a creative force It tells you nothing about this alleged creative force, so there is no way to bridge to gap from there to the Christian God. So until there's sufficient reason to believe in your "Infinite Creative Force, which deserves to be called God" the rest of your argument falls because I do not accept your first proposition.

YOU are your evidence. You don't see it because you look outward.

You can't find ANYTHING if you refuse to look where it is.

"He is within you, look not for Him elsewhere". ..... Bro. Lawrence, I believe.

I do believe that Christians are to be lead by the Holy Spirit and have a real relationship with God. That does not mean however that I think it's a good idea to throw your Bible away. Jesus himself was a scholar of the written word and often referred to specific passages of scripture. Yes,Christians can become legalistic regarding the letter and completely miss the Spirit. The Pharisee is the perfect example. The correct way is to allow the Holy Spirit to interpret God's word and bring revelation that would never come without Him. That's not to say that God won't just talk to believers because he will.

I exist. That's evidence for biology, not a god that care's with whom a sleep with and in what position.

We have scientifically valid theories for this universe as we know it, all the way back to the Planck Time, and none of them require the intervention of a divine intelligent agent. In the words of Simon Laplace, "There is No Need for God as a Hypothesis."

Nor do I think it should be thrown away. It's great literature. With in are may literary truths, even though the story are not true in the literal sense.

What is truth? Is it only that which you agree with?

I know of three friends who claim they heard the audible Word of God.

Many here remember Ken Howell. He told me the Words were, "Read the red letters."

Another was a guy who earned straight "A"s for eight years of college. He tried out for Mr. Oregon twice a few years apart and won both times. He was good looking to boot. He had a successful business. I prayed the Lord would beast up on him. He told me one day he was literally crying from pressure in life. He didn't necessarily believe in God because of twenty years of state brainwashing indoctrination. But in desperation he "cried out to the generic god", "God, I need some help!" He told me instantly he heard a booming voice coming from all direction at the same time, "You need to turn to Me, change your friends, and change your ways." I kidded him, "God likes you more than He does me. I have to read His Word."

The last one was a pastor I knew. He told me about while walking in his church one time and mused to himself, "What a great church I've built here." A voice filled the sanctuary and asked, "Who built this?!"

RH,

Let me give you an non-Christian example of a deep literary truth. Although none of the characters in they myth ever existed, it can bring a different perspective to the human condition.

I hope you find this enjoyable:

AS you know that there is no need to explain a binary question, and you know better than to try to assume my presumptions. You don't get it - not moving anything - there are no goalposts to move.

I'm going to quote you here: "If you can't define it, there's not good reason to believe it exist." The primary problem with that statement is the "you". If instead you had said "If AS can't define it, there's not good reason for AS to believe it exist", I could understand and accept that.

It appears that you are missing, or very dramatically discounting, an important dimension. Paul Tillich wrote very well about the dynamics.

Regardless of how many books he wrote, Paul Tillich is still just a presuppositionalist.

A philosophy build upon a fallacy is not more stable than a 100 story skyscraper built on swampland.

A couple of things for you to consider: to your first question, "yes." Have you not heard of the father of all lies, the great deceiver, Satan, who can appear as an angel of light and deceive us into believing that which is untrue?

Have you not read 2 Timothy 3:16 -- "all scripture is God-breathed and useful for teaching, correcting, and reproof..." (paraphrase mine).

Much of even the NT was written before the fourth century and do you realize what "God-breathed" means?

You, my friend, are woefully ignorant of what you so freely respond about.

A final friendly but very serious warning from Proverbs 14:12 -- "there is a way which seems right to a man but the end thereof is death.." (again paraphrase mine).

Please consider.

fascinating territory we'll all progressing through, as a group, and in our own individual ways of understanding.

AS, i do enjoy reading mythology. the greeks had so much of it, and seemed to align at least somewhat w/the egyptian cosmology. the hebrews were a bit different, and of course their language was totally different than the greek. and in their language resided so much of their particular cosmology.

joseph campbell has written a bunch on said subject. i think he's gone on now. his masks of god does fair justice to the thinking of early man as they struggled to find their place on earth as a separate species, the Naked Ape as it were.

some of the current good news is that there's some 1.3 billion humans in populated india, and most are hindu's. been around a long time with a ton of religious literature from 4500 plus years ago. i'm not going to say they're right, but i'm not about to claim they're wrong either.

i understand curdog's position. god speaks to whomever he wishes, and says what ever he wants to say. and book can be followed by rote memory, and just step over the contradictions, if any. nobody said a book on it's own had to be perfect to be usable.

I am reading the latest " Words" on this thread while watching jews and muslims fight it out in Jerusalem w/ the same certainty exhibited here. It is nearly as enlightening and educational as the debates on Sasquatch and alien abductions.

A quick scan of the world we live in today tells me that god has a stranger sense of humor than me. Intellectual/theological certainty is somewhat narcisistic perhaps?


mike r

George, I've been quoted that passage of scripture, recieved the same warning, and been the recipient of the same plea literally countless times on this forum over the last seventeen years. You are not original.

You would do well not to even mention Satan as the source of my peace. Some legalistic types such as you appear to be claimed Satan might be the force behind the miracles that Jesus wrought.

Pissed Him right off.

FYI, following the Jesus of my childhood whom I learned about in Sunday School and listening to people like yourself, I wound up hopeless. Then I cried out to whatever God there was for help. I recieved that help and it continues to this day, thirty two plus years later.

Over time that God I found revealed Himself to be Jesus of Nazareth. Upon reading the Bible with a newly opened mind, I found plenty of scriptural validation for the beliefs I hold, but I would be a hypocrite if I tried to preach to you about it.

You can rest assured that a man such as myself is not going to have his faith shaken by words from strangers on the internet.

But, in the future, if a man tells you that God is working in his life you should just wish him well and keep your ideas to yourself.

Unless you have a hankering for a millstone around your neck.😀

Science will never be able to explain Creation. By its nature it is not a fit subject for science and there will never be a consensus among scientists as far as the origin of the Universe.

Funny how the only thing that a lot of scientist agree on is that "it wasn't done by a God".

"We don't know how it came about, and we can't make it come about again ourselves,but since there is no evidence that we accept, we know that creation did not require a creator."

Imagine that I said last year;"I'm not voting for Trump unless he personally comes to my house and asks me to".

Your position regarding the God that made you is sillier than that by several orders of magnitude.

I'm partial to some of the Hindu writings.

"The whole world is the garment of the Lord. Reject it and recieve it back as a gift from God."

Sounds like something you might post, Gus.

Sir, I didn't claim to be "original" here but simply responded to what you said.

I didn't claim Satan was the source of your peace; I only claimed what he can be and what he can do.

People "like myself??" I don't believe you really know me or my motivation and it's much safer for you to not presume too much.

As to "a stranger on the internet," in that, I agree you are mostly correct; although, without looking, I think I've been here since '04. And my desire was to not "shake your faith" but to hope it was well-placed.

Your rebuff is well-taken in that as a mailman I am now already down the street.

Thats not really how all this works...

"some are saved while currently on the earth, and a third group will be saved later on as the process continues to unfold. i guess we'll find out sooner or later, or maybe not."

I agree with the last 3 words of this statement.

It works for Calvin.

Who are you to say it doesn't?

[quote=George_De_Vries_3rd
Have you not read 2 Timothy 3:16
Please consider.[/quote]

Quoting one of the Pastoral epistles? Gene is wise to ignore that forgery.

Forgery? By whose a claim AS?

It's strange that a preacher, teacher, or wannabe teacher will loudly proclaim that there is but one God, but in private conversation they become concerned that you found the wrong one.

God gives me all the direction I need to live a good life, but He has NEVER revealed to me what someone else should believe or do.

As far as Satan is concerned God revealed him to me then let me know that he was no concern of mine....... I've given no thought to Satan since that day.

Let's presume for a moment that science cannot provide sufficient prof regarding the origins of the universe, the default position does not become your favorite god or fairy tale, it becomes "We don't know".

However I seen no reason to accept your assertion that through the methods of science we can NEVER be able to explain the origins of the universe and planck time, and beyond this universe. In less then 100 years, we've gone from determining there were objects beyond our galaxy, to understand the universe is expanding to an understanding of this universe to within 10 to the negative 43 of a second of it's beginning. How can you claim to know what we will, or will not be able to understand in 100, 200, or a 1000 years from now?

The name for the specific fallacy your are committing is an "argument from ignorance". I'm not saying your are ignorant, just that you can't claim your position is true due to a lack of knowledge.

I also find it interesting how you, the guy who hates to be misquoted, misrepresented my quote from Laplace. "There is No Need for God as a Hypothesis.", is not the same as "it wasn't done by a God".

As for Trump, I have much better evidence for his existence then I do for your God, Heck, I have photographs of Trump. Can you provide any independently verifiable photographs of your God?

Here's a nice introduction for you, complete with footnotes:

Pastoral epistles[edit]
The First Epistle to Timothy, the Second Epistle to Timothy, and the Epistle to Titus are often referred to as the Pastoral Epistles and are the most disputed of all the epistles ascribed to Paul.[41]

Despite this, these epistles were accepted as genuine by many, perhaps most of the ante-Nicene Church Fathers.[42][43] Some scholars have argued that the letters were certainly accepted as Pauline by the time of Irenaeus.[44] They were also included in the Muratorian fragment. According to Jerome, the gnostic Christian Basilides also rejected these epistles, and Tatian, while accepting Titus, rejected other Pauline epistles.[45] Marcion (c. 140) excluded all three, along with Hebrews, from his otherwise complete Pauline corpus, and it is impossible to determine whether or not he knew of them. Donald Guthrie, for instance, argues that the epistles' theology would have been cause to reject the letters since it was incompatible with certain passages, such as 1 Tim 1:8 and 1 Tim 6:20,[45] while Ehrman suggests that 2nd-century proto-orthodox Christians had motivation to forge the Pastorals to combat the Gnostic use of other Pauline epistles.[46] Even the ancient writer Tertullian (c. 220), in Adv. Marc. V.21, expresses confusion as to why these epistles had not been included in Marcion's canon. Modern scholars postulate that the Pauline Epistles originally circulated in three forms, for example, from The Canon Debate,[47] attributed to Harry Y. Gamble:

"Marcion's collection that begins with Galatians and ends with Philemon;"
"Papyrus 46, dated about 200, that follows the order that became established except for reversing Ephesians and Galatians;"
"[T]he letters to seven churches, treating those to the same church as one letter and basing the order on length, so that Corinthians is first and Colossians (perhaps including Philemon) is last."
Beginning in the early 19th century, many German biblical scholars began to question the traditional attribution of these letters to Paul. The vocabulary and phraseology used in the Pastorals is often at variance with that of the other epistles. Over 1/3 of the vocabulary is not used anywhere else in the Pauline epistles, and over 1/5 is not used anywhere else in the New Testament, while 2/3 of the non-Pauline vocabulary are used by 2nd-century Christian writers.[48] For this reason, and because of a claimed precedence of 1 Clement, some scholars have associated these works with later 2nd-century Christian writings.[49] The precedence of 1 Clement was challenged by R. Falconer,[50] while L. T. Johnson challenged the linguistic analysis as based on the arbitrary grouping of the three epistles together: he argued that this obscures the alleged similarities between 1 Timothy and 1 Corinthians, between Titus and the other travel letters, and between 2 Timothy and Philippians.

Norman Perrin argued that Paul's travels to Crete (Titus 1:5-6), again to Ephesus (1 Tim 1:3), Nicopolis (Titus 3:12), and Troas (2 Tim 1:15, 4:13) cannot be fit into any reconstruction of Paul's life or works as determined from the other epistles or from Acts. In this he was preceded by several scholars who rejected Pauline authorship.[51] Robinson argued against this analysis,[52] while others have debated whether this should be grounds for rejection of Pauline authorship, as Acts concludes while Paul is still alive. Harnack, Lightfoot and other scholars have suggested hypothetical scenarios that would have these epistles written near the end of Paul's life without contradicting biographical information in the other epistles or Acts. Scholars arguing for the authenticity of the pastorals posit a "second career" of Paul to explain the occasion for the visits mentioned in these letters, though contemporary scholars generally consider the "second career" of Paul to be a creation of later Christian communities.[53]

Other reasons for a 2nd-century date have been argued. The Pastoral Epistles lay out church organisation concerning the character and requirements for bishops, elders, deacons, and widows. Some scholars have claimed that these offices could not have appeared during Paul's lifetime.[54] In terms of theology, some scholars claim that the Pastorals reflect more the characteristics of 2nd century (Proto-orthodox) church thought, than those of the 1st century.[46] In particular, whilst in the 1st century the idea of Christ's return being immediate was current (see parousia, as also described in the non-pastoral epistles), in the 2nd century it was seen as more distant, matching the choice of the pastorals to lay down instructions for a long time after the passing away of the apostles.[54] Lastly, some have argued that the Pastorals condemn forms of Hellenic mysticism and gnosticism, which were seen as not significant in the 1st century;[55] however, recent scholarship into 1st century Gnosticism has suggested an earlier dominance of Gnostic views.[56]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Pauline_epistles#Pastoral_epistles

You don't remember Jesus commands to preach the Gospel?

I preached it earlier in this thread......, "All you need to know is Me".

I'm afraid to ask YOUR version of the Gospel.

Holy Bible.

Some christians seem to be in a hurry to understand the universe, with such impatience inserting God becomes the convenient answer.
Some are not much different to primitive savages that will refer matters to the village witch-doctor.

a God when angry that creates earthquakes and Jesus cursing-casting spells on trees that refuse to bear fruit out of season...

Horseschitt! From Pentecost in 33 AD to 1054, there was only one church. Then............the Roman Church went off the rails in 1054 breaking the fullness of the traditions and Apostolic succession.

But I agree with the first part and would add that the Church Fathers wrote plenty about what was not included in Scriptures. The Scriptures are the Scriptures. They weren't intended to include what we call unwritten traditions because when they were written to the audiences they were intended for at the time, the Church traditions were common knowledge and the writers didn't need to waste valuable papyrus reminding them of what they were.

He is currently doing a series of lectures on the Bible, fascinating stuff focusing so far mostly on Genesis but branching off a bit too. His YouTube channel has them and many other really good videos.

Christ is not in those who reject Him. Satan is the destroyer, one of his henchmen is AS. He comes to destroy every conversation christians try to have and we argue with and try to educate him. Who of you would change Satan into a christian step forward. Languish in yourfolly. AS proves nothing but that he adores the great deciever.

He proves the existence of satan by the Lords explanation in the Bible, and thus, by extension, that the Lord is right.
What i learned from AS.
We all know we are born of the flesh. He taught me that does not mean there is a Spirit.
Duh. We all like water or hunting or guns. You know what
? That does not mean there is a God. I mean, what genius we deal with.


If we bowhunters are discussing killing a deer with a certain broadhead and some interloper who knows nothing about it through experience and they dont want to learn and all they want to do is tell us how stupid we are for not being like him and using a gun, are we to involve and argue with him

He argues about something we have heard, seen, felt and tasted and yet we involve him as if we must change him into someone who will eventually hear the wonderful sound of an arrow popping ribs.

Why?

Even the blind strive to lead someone. RC

Defending your viewpoints in writing is the best way to test their correctness. Antelope Sniper is just engaging in that activity along with the rest of us.

I expect he and I would enjoy a hunting camp together and I can't say the same for Ringman, etal.

We have read the Lords commandments and we know they are good a suitable for humans, families, nations and civilizations. The destroyers, who have been devieved, would have us throw that away to accept the ways of the world. To destroy this nation they have their PC rules and recommendations as adhered to by the open border and muzzy loving crew.

Others attack from another direction, being wolves in sheeps clothing.

What is it that AS finds so viscerally unaccetable about the believe of Christians. Is he so opposed to those with serious disease seeing witch doctors? Heck no. But if you speak of the reason for there being a right and wrong he is there to tell you there is no such reason. Subliminal messsge- do as you wish, lean on your own understanding. Go to hell if there is one as i dont want to be alone. Misery loves company.

Of course, those like him object, and agree we need laws against murder, assualt, theft, etc because they above all want to be considered reasonable.

Satan the great pretender, knows all the scriptures words- just not their meaning or reason for being.

Good luck in your quest to agrue with Satan.

I could probably enjoy a hunting camp with Madonna.

There is something besides neighborlyness that drives someone to try and destroy attempts by believers to come together and discuss their Savior and it that something is not Good. It comes from evil for evil. It is Evil.

I would love to see you all in a big get together around a fire.....with yer spears bibles and knives ...........you could work it out.




It would be Biblical !

There was something like you would like to see. It is recorded in Acts Fifteen. It started off with factions . They all came to agreement because they all believed in Jesus and were filled with the Holy Spirit.

ever since ol swami muktananda came over here to the us with his teachings of enlightenment, i've recognized that the hindu's do exist in various types, forms, and sorts.
since he gave over the teachings, business, or calling to his deciple gurumaya the work goes on, and she works hard at the subject from all indications.

lot's of the writings from 4000 plus years ago teach a lot about medicine and healing. i know Jesus was a great healer. don't know if he was naturally born with that ability or if he went off somewheres to "school" and learned the craft?

AS, here you seem to avoid my exposure of where your statement fits, where it does not, and a missing dimension - an important dimension - one addressed by many and by Tillich in non-mystical and non-evangelical terms. It seems like, rather than addressing that dimension, you choose rather flippantly to dismiss the thinking of one of the great theological minds of the 20th century because you envision some philosophical fallacy. It's not about some philosophy - it's not about the person (not a theological hero of mine, but a seminal source for insight) - it's about a basic issue.

the essential tillich is quite the read. for me, as a lowly commoner, i'm much more interested in what father mathew fox has to say about co-creation theology. that is, man and god working as partners, each carrying responsibilities for making the earth a better place as we steward it into perpetuity. we'll take care of the environment, and god will hopefully keep a meteor from striking the earth....a really productive partnership.

AS, I admire you Google powers and even more your patience in cutting 'n pasting some long article. However, the credentials, backgrounds, and beliefs of the authors disputing their Pauline origin is strangely missing. The world is awash in liberal "Christians" theologians and apostacy. There are professors and pastors who don't believe even cornerstone doctrines of Christianity such as the virgin birth, the resurrection, etc., so differences in opinion of the origin of this or that book are almost patty-cake stuff.

For sake of our discussion, say Paul did not write these books (though he did), it doesn't change the veracity of their content does it.

Do you know how a book qualified to be included in the canon of scripture?

AS and Curdog, I wish a good week for you both. I appreciate this thread or as much as I read of it was kept at a civil level.

I lived in a small town. There were thirteen churches there. Seven of the pastors did NOT believe in the virgin birth of Jesus. One of the pastor was a "Christian" by proclamation only because he needed to be a "Christian" to keep his job. It made no difference how many degrees they might have. They didn't accept Truth. That's why when I challenge people to name two Ph.D level scientists who have switched to evolution AFTER earning their degree I exclude theologians and philosophers. Physical scientist at least try to deal with facts. They may not interpret them correctly, but at least they have facts. The other two classes of "scientists" deal in personal opinion.

Proverbs 26:4
New International Version
Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be just like him.

AS does not want to attempt to learn anything about God, Christians, or Christianity. He just shows up to argue. It's evident on every discussion like this that pops up. I believe he has a pride issue and that gets in the way. This is why I quit responding to his nonsense. God is easy to find if a guy wants to.

I agree completely! He rejects all evidence to be "willfully ignorant" as the Bible calls it. I also will no longer respond to his nonsense.

Spot on.

It's telling that in these threads about Christianity unbelievers are some of the first to jump in to deny some doctrine or the word of God to salve and justify their unbelief.

Otherwise, why participate in something you don't believe in? It's obviously not to learn anything.

You can't learn anything from someone who agrees with you on everything.

That is a fun, profound statement.

What man doesn't have a pride problem?

A.S. is no fool.

A.S. is like many people, He has a problem with hypocritical Christian types, which when some reach that point they have very little tolerance for any Christian types.

I was like him in my younger years, Thank God for a man named Vernon Mitchell, he knew how to bring a man to God and did it with gusto!

Nope, he's a fool.



Psalm 14English Standard Version (ESV)

The Fool Says, There Is No God

14 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds;
there is none who does good.

This, and Amen. You took those words from Gods mouth, JG, as we are intended to.

PS, ive been on the road most the day or I would have stuck it too. ;

Its amazing, AS has an.answer for everything.

HE has The Answer for everything. HE IS THE ANSWER.

Get thee behind me Satan.

You know, Jesus used the Phariseessed own teachings to show them that they were not following them, so maybe it's acceptable for me to point to Paul's teachings for those who accept his words as "God breathed":

When he claimed that scripture was useful for "reproof"(among other uses, of course) there is no doubt that he was writing about church members.

When y'all post bible verses condemning non believers, like A S, it can serve no purpose other than to elevate you above your brethren.

When Paul was evangelizing among the heathen gentiles, do you think he used O T scripture, or do you think he brought them a new message?

If you go back and read Clark's O P in this thread about how modern churches have deteriorated I think you will find that this "campfire church" stands accused of the same behavior.

This post is not aimed not only at my friend, Jag, but to all you scripture throwers.

I will respectfully disagree, to a point. I post scripture because it is, IMHO inarguable, and is the ultimate truth. It doesn't really matter what you think it's for, or what I think it's for. If it is the truth about subject, that answers or rebukes a falsehood, I'm going to post it. AS does not have good intentions here and never has in these types of threads. He's a professional arguer who likes hearing himself talk. That's it.

I have no problem with being labeled a "scripture thrower" eve if it makes some uncomfortable. Some of them make me uncomfortable too, and that's a good thing.

I see no difference between Proteastants who consider the Bible to be without error and Roman Catholics who consider the Pope infallible.

In both cases the Risen Christ is sidelined as if He is incapable of communicating with His followers in whichever manner He chooses.

A man can receive Divine inspiration from anything he can apprehend with his five senses even though the inspiration may be transmitted by a sixth sense.

I had a Church of Christ neighbor who assured me that if I recieved inspiration from any source other than scripture that I was being deceived by Satan.

I've been told that same thing many times on this forum.

I just grin and keep on going.

JGRaider has the correct handle on sola scriptura.

curdog4570,

"I've been told that same thing many times on this forum.

I just grin and keep on being deceived."

Fixed it for you.

as an aside to the main-stream debate that appears to be raging, i like the term "apprehend" in this usage as better than "comprehend." it's a more accurate depiction of the reality. ah, the sixth sense issue. what a concept. intuition is what i call it, others might prefer to call it something else.

curdog, i guess if some folks want and/or need to hear from god, they need to go look it up in an english language version of the bible, and not in the original greek and/or hebrew. and don't expect god to come pricking one's heart, because for most it ain't gonna happen.

is there some truth in the bible? of course there is. and is there another book of the bible? of course the native americans, or some of them will insist there is. It's called Nature. Nature is not god, it's a creation or product of god, just like the scriptures written in plain english.

And these are the reasons Christians drive people away from God. You should look up a few passages and see what Jesus says about that.

I haven't kept up with everything lately,but let me weigh in on a few points.

I do think AS is a professional arguer,but that's OK with me as he mostly seems to keep it civil even if I do find him offensive at times with his lack of respect for Christian views.To me,it's fine not to believe what another man believes,but I want to try to respect what I know he respects.

I think It's fine to sometimes use scripture but I would rather speak about the truths those scriptures outline. Way too many times well meaning people have used scripture to say the exact opposite to what it actually says when interpreted correctly. I have a high regard for scripture but I don't think it is always the best proof of an argument.

I think curdog is about half right in his approach to listening to The Spirit. I think he would be much better served to add scripture to the listening.The listening will actually reveal what the scripture is actually saying,so you don't become a legalistic Pharisee who can quote every scripture but have no real idea of the heart of God.

Personally,I try to listen to God and have a relationship with him. I also study scripture. I have never found a conflict between the two. I have at times had a conflict of my understanding where i thought scripture was saying something that just didn't sit right in my heart. Whenever that has happened,I have been able to look more closely at the scripture context and original languages and come to an understanding that I believe to be correct both by my heart,and by the fact that my new revelation of that scripture was in agreement with the whole of scripture.

I never apologize for quoting the truths of scripture. If it offends you (or me) then maybe we need offending to get our attention.

You are dreaming. Christians are driving anyone anywhere. The people you are talking about make a conscience or unconsciousness decision every day to reject God.

You are dreaming. Christians are driving anyone anywhere. The people you are talking about make a conscience or unconsciousness decision every day to reject God.

You need to get over yourself and accept God's Word as THE Final Authority! There is slight difference in you and curdog4570. Jesus was a Presuppositionalist.
Apostle Paul was a Presuppositionalist. Apostle Paul wrote, "Follow me I follow Christ."

once again, and with feeling, we find ourselves entrenched in our respective positions. not to be moved, not even by half or even all the debils in hell. we're locked in to our beliefs. clearly we are. just look at us.

one of the things (of many) that divides Christians, various spiritualists, and others is the concept of God. so many believe he's an outsized human, like a human in features. he's giant sized over and above us. he roams the heavens, striding across his domain checking in as necessary.

others sense that God is more a force, a anomalous spirit, an energy, not necessarily a tall, handsome blue-eyed blonde God that looks like our grandson. they see God emanating across the universe, into anything and everything he wishes. he's in us, he's in the next guy,. he's in the environment. a different view than a human-like God.

i dunno. the physicists say that all the atoms, later to become molecules as building blocks for the largest cities, and the humans, lions & tigers are emerged from nothingness into form. nothing into something, what a concept, and yet the God force is everywhere at once.

lot's of talk by the true believers that flow past each other. i know it does me on occasion.

but at least we can hold on tightly to our beliefs. we can do that.

If you are speaking to me,I have no idea why you would think that I don't think God has the final word.

Ringman is at home taking a different view from what nobody else actually posted.

R_H_Clark,

You posted,



Again, IT is the only proof of an argument for a Christian!

I think you missed the point. It's not proof at all if neither of us can agree on what it actually says.

Clark, maybe you've missed the several posts I've made over the years, and once on this thread, that every view I hold about Christianity is supported by the New Testament in its various versions. I mention a lot of things found in the Bible and I couldn't very well do that if I haven't devoted a good bit of time with it.

Apparently a man must quote chapter and verse or be counted a heathen on this forum. Please understand that I'm not taking offense to your post since I agree with the gist of it, I just want to clear up a slight misunderstanding you have where I'm concerned.

John said:" God is love." Now.... is that only true because John wrote it and it made the cut when the Bible was assembled in the fourth century? Or, would it be just as true if John never wrote it but a guy sitting on the next bar stool said it?

So......you've added mind reading to your impressive list of talents, have you?

You are so easy to laugh at.

Thanks,I'm glad you didn't take offence,none was meant. I am glad to hear you have devoted a good bit of time to the scriptures. I do agree with your example more than you could guess.

I'm still not giving up on you over Paul though. I would be willing to bet that if we could talk enough,I could get you to change your mind about some things. I've agreed with just about everything I remember except your position on Paul, so I have to think you somehow have the wrong idea about his writings.

"John said:" God is love."

That right. God loves you but if you don't love him back he'll burn you in hell for eternity. It's your choice. God is like the egotistical guy that tells his girlfriend that he loves her but if she doesn't love him back he'll blow her brains out. It's her choice though so if she choses not to love him back it's her fault if she gets her brains blown out.

Perfect analogy except that the boyfriend didn't create the girlfriend. Nor is the boyfriend the objective standard against which all is judged.

But ya know... other than that is a perfect analogy.

That may be your atheist view,and I'm sure some calling themselves Christians have presented God in that way. I'm a Christian and I have studied the Bible extensively and that's not the way I see it at all. In my view,God isn't throwing anyone into hell. They are headed there because there's only two choices and they don't qualify on their own for Heaven. God knew they wouldn't qualify but he fixed it so they could go anyway if they would just hold his hand through the gate. God stands there holding his hand out wanting to take people through but they would rather spit in his face.

No, you present it in a way that makes it acceptable. Telling a person "Hey if you don't believe this you're going to burn in hell, you want to burn in hell?, if not then you had better believe what I'm telling you!"

Very few listen to that approach, When I was younger there were many people who turned me off to God, Thankfully there was a man who knew how to talk to people and lead them to God, he got my attention and I never turned back.

My Dad used to tell me "It's not what you say, it's how you say it"

Telling a man he's a fool because he doesn't believe what you say doesn't seem to me to be the way to go about it, maybe the problem lies with in you......maybe it's the way you say it.

I've seen many Christians drive people from God and or attending church, Many.

Arrogance does not bring "on the fence" believers to God, it pushes them away. It does not happen with one "your going to burn in hell" conversation, it takes time and one can screw it up in about 3 seconds flat, I've been there.

Don't screw up bringing someone to God because you can't get past your pride and arrogance.

After reading this thread the only words that come to mind are these:He gave us free will,believe or not it's up to you.

He gave everyone the facts to form their ways and it's up to them to sort it out.

You forget one major detail. It's not me saying it. It is God's word. Whether you listen to it or not will be no excuse when you stand before your maker to explain it. Lot's of good people may not like what the scriptures say, but that doesn't make the scriptures wrong.

Not a rebuke to anyone but just something to think about when we speak to those unsaved.

Romans 2:3-4King James Version (KJV)

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

You should probably reread my post, I never said Gods word was wrong or offending, the gist of my post was......Maybe it's the way you present gods word that is wrong.

I've also seen the arrogance and pride of a parent push their own kids away from god, ever hear of "Preachers kid syndrome"? there is a reason the term exists.

Whether we agree or not is irrelevant to the facts. Not accepting the proof for something in no way diminishes the proof. Look how clear the First Chapter of Genesis is and yet how many "Christians" don't accept it as factual history. How much legal historical evidnece is there for Jesus?! Rejecting proof shows someone is being willfully ignorant. Like Jesus says in John Five, "If they don't believe Moses and the prophets, they will not believe if someone rises from the dead."

The "Preachers kid syndrome" is brought on by the hypocrisy of the parents not living the things preached on Sunday. It's that simple in a nutshell.

Another point I'll hope to make.

What I see with A.S. is you trying to use scriptures to make him feel unworthy and unloved, do you really think this works? Why would you not get into a conversation with him to try to find out why he feels the way he does and work from there?

One thing is for sure, he sure as hell ain't going to get into a conversation with you about it now, that chance is long gone.

One of my favorite sayings comes from my Dad, "I'd rather see a sermon than hear a sermon".... D.A.D.

I'm afraid I don't do a very good job of giving a sermon but I try to get better at it.

Why can't you understand that the best argument to make to a non believer concerning the existence of God may not be verses from a book that you say God wrote,and therefore he must accept it as truth?

When I picture Jesus on the earth,I don't see him pointing the finger quoting scripture pointing out everyone's faults. I'm sure there was plenty of that going on by the Pharisees.Jesus did quote scripture, but mostly what I see Jesus doing is living his faith .

Not being argumentative RH, but Jesus did rebuke many people in his short lifetime, including his disciples

http://feedingonchrist.com/how-jesus-confronted-and-corrected-others/

He obviously did so too by the way he lived His life, as you mentioned.

Re Paul....... In the first place I don't believe Jesus intended to trust His message/ministry to a "church". According to many scholars, the word that is translated as "church" more accurately means a "fellowship", but that's really beside the point. It seems most unlikely to me that after what the Jews did with their priests and temple that He would want to duplicate that.

Jesus was revealed as the Christ to John the Baptist and then to Peter. Read the verses around those events and especially the words of Jesus following Peter's confession.Those along with other statements lead me to believe that His "church" was founded on the Father's ability to reveal Jesus as the Christ to individuals.

Paul had a profound Spiritual Experience on the Damascus road. If you've ever had a similar experience, you know they don't come across like a movie or TV show.You get a central "message" and your mind fills in details usually with a big assist from the ego. I don't doubt that Paul's central message was to carry the Gospel to the Gentiles, the fact that he succeeded in such a dramatic fashion lends credibility to that.

But..... being an extremely legalistic Jew, I doubt he could conceive of a simple Fellowship with no preachers, deacons,elders and such.

We will never know what Christianity would be today if Paul's letters had not been counted as Scripture. It's for damn sure there would not be as much to argue about.

I doubt any human could ever make me see Saint Paul as anything but a man who loved God but took himself too seriously. There's a lot around like that.

You keep right on thinking that.......I know a couple of preachers daughters that would tell you your full of crap.

I don't believe that Jesus and/or God are ever taken by surprise, and they knew exactly how Their message would be spread. Getting caught off-guard isn't possible with regards to God/Jesus.

I can't agree with that either. I chalk it up to free will, as with everyone else that rebels.

I would agree because if he did he really didn't think it through. but i do think he wants us to help him in that endeavor, someone has to get their attention so they takle a look and decide for themselves. Belittling them with scripture, telling them they will burn in hell for eternity, Ect, Ect. will make very few if any take a look.




To be honest I need to study my name sake a little more but what I do know of him I do believe you're probably correct.

I will once again say that I believe each person's relationship with God is very personal and unique. As someone said, God wants us to love him (and others) and to let him guide us through life. No one path is exactly the same as another, and I find it hard to imagine one person telling another what path God has for that person.

Walk around for awhile with my Dads words in your head "I'd rather see a sermon than hear a sermon".... D.A.D. see if it does anything for you, maybe it won't maybe it will.

After my Dads death I had a guy come up to me and tell me what a difference those words made in his life and that he would forever be grateful for knowing my dad just because of that.

If a man can make a difference in just one other persons life I think he did pretty damn good.

Jesus had more authority than you.

Far be it from me to try and change anyone's mind about God if what they have is working for them. But....

It is an interesting exercise to read all the N T letters, EXCEPT for those ascribed to Paul. Then give some thought to how valuable his written contribution really is.

There's not any theology in James and John's letters and consider that THEY were writing to the fellowship as a whole, not individual churches like Paul was doing. Evidently they didn't think theology was all that important.

Of course, they had the advantage of knowing Jesus on a day to day basis, in the flesh.

I can agree a hundred percent with this post.

Of course it probably put you on Ringman's [bleep].😀

Try again...sheet list

Amen to that! Great dad's are a real blessing. Thanks for sharing that. BTW, I was disagreeing with Ringmans opinion on the preacher's kids, not yours. Just wanted to make sure you knew that.

You are not a non-believer. You need to read about Jesus by reading His Word. Not commentators. Jesus is the embodiment of love. After all, He is the Word of God. He took time to weave a whip to drive out money grubbers. He is the God Who sent the Flood. He is the One Who will condemn to Hell.

I'm not smart enough to pretend to understand why God wanted Paul's writings in the Holy Bible, but I'll assume it's because He wanted them there and felt they were an asset to spiritual growth and living.

But see, my friend, our difference is that I'm not so sure God wanted Paul's letters in the Bible.

But those guys who were making a living off the other folks sure did and so they are in there.

But I'm free to say that there is more valuable information in James' letter than all of Paul's combined.

For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23

For the wages of sin is death; But the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

We are all sinners and God, being Holy, cannot abide with sin. Jesus sacrificed Himself for our sin. When we accept that we aren't capable of being good enough to enter Heaven on our own and receive Jesus' gift, then we are sinners saved by grace. His blood wipes away our sin before God.

The same can be said for most vaginas.

Jesus, being God, does not intend anything. Everything He wants He does. Paul was the opposite of the modern idea of "legalistic". Read about it in Acts Fifteen. If he was so legalistic he would not have agreed with the idea of forgetting circumcision and going only with abstaining from fornication, abstaining from blood, abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, and from things strangled.

I know pastor who became a Christian strictly because he heard a sermon about going to Hell; and he believed it.

Apparently I have a hook or two in you. You presume to know a lot about what I think and don't think.

You got us mixed up again.....you are the one with the mind reading act.

I'm the one who thinks you are borderline crazy.

You need to keep the players straight.

It's no wonder that folks here respond to your posts the way they do.

I like most vagina's, but alas I am only allowed to listen to one..........

Amen!

Run across some loud ones?

In this day and age, you'd have to live in a pretty remote area to not find a church that suits your wants/needs.

I can't see how a lover of God and a lover of people wouldn't want to attend a local Church. I know folks who don't, but they usually point out flaws rather than get involve and try to fix those flaws in the church and in the end I see it as an excuse to not give time/money/effort. And that's fine, we certainly don't want people in church who don't want to be there.

Schools would be wonderful places of learning if we could make that a reality in education.

It's easy, if I go to a church and they are many where it's, sing a few songs, take up the offering, preach and were out I can't stomach it. I've tried. I went to a church for several years that was holy spiritleadthag was the most amazing church. Worship may last the whole time or only play one song or stopithe middle of preaching and have a time of prayer from any and everybody that the spirit lead. Nobody on the planet can convince me that worship is gonna be 30 minutes and preaching is gonna be 1 - 1.5 hours every Sunday for years and it's spirit lead. I feel like a prisoner in a church like that.

So those being a lover of God and People is conditional to attending a local church?
Jesus left Nazareth for Capernaum to get away from narrow village mindsets.

Another pesky truth from God's word:

Hebrews 10:24-25 (NIV)

24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

You're absolutely right when you point out that all truth is God's truth. Whether it's a direct quote from Scripture or not, it carries His authority. This is why we recite creeds. They're "condensed truth".

I have always figured that God, being who He is, oversaw the formation of the canon. He oversaw all of human history up to that point and since, what makes Pauline epistles and the dark forces who would use them to exert influence away from Christ so much more powerful than all the other forces in the universe?

I have also always belived that faith has a great deal to do with submission. The only reason that I would choose to see Paul excluded is because something didn't sit right with me. But who the heck am I? One who found his life by lying it before a God who owned it all along.

But my submission in faith isn't just to God but to others in community. I like what Bill Wilson wrote in twelve steps & twelve traditions with regard to step 11 and our penchant to imagine God's voice to say what suits us, and the resulting need for submission to a community. I've found that to be true in my life. More often than not the voice of God I like best is the one that happens to agree with me.

One of the biggest reasons I believe Christianity to be true is it doesn't appeal to me, nor apologize for not appealing to me.

I've been a friend of Bill W for over thirty two years and getting together with a regular bunch of his other friends a couple times a week fits me better than the churches I've attended.

It's a lot more spiritually rewarding to spend an hour with everyone talking about how God changed and is still changing their lives than for a preacher to read a couple bible verses and then preach on it for thirty minutes.

When I turned my will and my life over to God I learned to be open minded about spiritual matters and I learned that God is a lot bigger than the Bible makes Him out to be and that Paul's original sin theology makes Jesus a lot smaller than He really is.

curdog
What exactly do you mean by Paul's original sin theology?

Mostly on here.

Is a scratch and sniff legal?

Oh heck, not that pesky Bible crap again. I mean, i believe in Him and He said I am A Ok. I dont need to know about these things He sent in a message to me? Do I ? He should have special rules and requirements for ME because ....

1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons (demons, arent they, Satans helpers). 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry (huh? No way, how we supposed to multiply?Oh, His rules werent for everyone, like preists) and order them to abstain from certain foods (baggon, steak, cattle-on Fri) which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

6If you point these things out to the brothers and sisters,a you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed. 7Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives’ tales; rather, train yourself to be godly...

Paul preaches "Christ, and Him crucified". As if dying on a cross was all Jesus was about.

That's the short version. To go into it further would mean answering to a host of things that I would not be saying, but the Pharisees would hear.

The birth and death of Christ are my most important truth as a Christian. Through His death on the cross, Jesus Christ demonstrated the love of God and ushered in a new covenant where we can have forgiveness and new life. The finality of the cross has great meaning for me.

Jesus' death and resurrection form the pattern by which we die to our old selves and experience rebirth in the Spirit.

Jesus is fully God, and there is salvation in no other person (Acts 4:10-12). The atonement of Christ was finished at the cross.

To minimize the cross is to minimize the deity of Christ. Jesus is God the Son, Jesus Almighty God. His blood on the cross is sufficient to guarantee one's salvation.

For God's will was for us to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time. Hebrews 10:10

My 'lapsed' Roman catholic parents and grandparents were not regular church goers , yet they conducted themselves much like good samaritans
throughout their lives assisting people in the community less fortunate than them, including those shunned and condemned by society like prostitutes
and single mothers or just families in gross disarray . They really had no time or inclination to spend sundays grovelling to a priest or mix with all the
community church asslicker judgemental two faced gossip types those groups consisted of, nor did they put money in the church plate.....instead they
preferred to just go about actually demonstrating christian values in day to day life and spent their money and donated needy goods to help people
directly as they saw fit. and they didn't care or ask what religion or beliefs those recipients had or point out their faults.

That is the way they conducted their lives before and throughout WW2 in Europe, as well as after as migrants.
Because they owned local businesses, they were very much already in touch with what was going on in the
community through face to face interaction with variety of people. Word also became established through the
community that they were the people one was able to approach to see if some form of assistance was possible.

I'm not much for preaching either. Worship, yes. Hanging out with church folks, yes. Lots of folks with problems attend my church. I like it that way.

not everyone who walks amongst us appreciates just how much of a revolutionary Jesus was. apparently he despised the status quo, and wanted massive, and constructive change.

nowadays, if we were fortunate enough to have him walk amongst us in the post-modern era, he'd still likely be fighting against the status quo as it now exists, and would be pushing for constructive change.

nothing wrong with having a few revolutionaries, but to have too many could be equal to having too many cooks in the kitchen.

Not all, to be sure, but most definitely the main event.

You think not?

he attempted to bring change to the status quo. the majority (the Jews) had him kilt by their oppressor, the romans. nowadays, things have changed. his vision for change has occurred to an extent, but not yet enough. the jews represent some 11 million people now, scattered all over, and then occupying a small sliver of land that once belonged to the philistines, who were allies of the Greeks.

in short, his being kilt by the opposition was god's will, afterall. we all know god will not and shall not be denied. so, his killing was according to plan. lot's of stories have emerged in the last 2000 years, and more to come, i suspect.

A God didn't create the boyfriend nor is a God going to judge anybody. Gods and all the fairly tales about them are created in men's minds. Just because some men wrote their delusions down doesn't make those delusions true. When I was working if you had a problem employee that needed to be fired you had to carefully document the reasons for firing them. If you didn't carefully document the incidents that led to you firing them the union would be able to overturn the firing. Even the union believed that writing down the infractions made them "the gospel". I remember as a young kid hearing the bible being discussed (and later on reading it myself) and thinking that this was some crazy stuff and how could anybody believe it. I figured that as I got older maybe it would might begin to make some sense but the exact opposite happened. Do you believe your God loves all living things or just humans that believe in him?

Sound like great people. We need more like that. Works won't get you into heaven though, unfortunately.

Some day we'll see won't we? You will stand before your maker. Not believing it doesn't make it so.

I think not. I believe His ressurection is the main event.

His atoning death is just a symbol of something far greater in my opinion. In some way we will never comprehend He reconciled all of creation with its Creator. We humans are the only ones free to refuse the reconciliation.

I chose to partake.

Id add this...Im a Catholic and unapologetic about it. I truly believe it to be the one true Church created by Jesus himself. This is not something that was indoctrinated into me as a youth but something I came to understand and believe as an adult with much prayer and contemplation. Organized faith...any organized faith is what you make it. You take the good with the bad but always try to mend and make it better. Take ownership of your faith and invest in its future.

With that being said, THE message is far more important than the technicalities. Love one another as I have loved you...as a whole the Christian community needs to keep their focus on this message. Of course we should live our lives according to the commandments and the Bible...but loving one another must always be the end result of our personal faith in the Lord.

I struggle personally with this message. I often have trouble separating the sin from the sinner. I find myself hating the sinner when in fact i should be praying for the sinner and hating the sin...if that makes any sense at all. No one man is perfect...no one organization is perfect...what can I say.

makes perfectly good sense, and i've never been in a catholic church, no not one, in my whole life. but, the Teachings are so important. that minor detail often gets overlooked by those who follow the more mystical side of the Jesus belief system: that is, miraculous birth, death, resurrection, never really died, etc. but, to each their own. different strokes for different folks as they say.

and we all know that if it hadn't been for mary, we'd never have had jesus to begin with. lot's to think about when one delves in really deep, even over one's head at times.

but, the good news is the sun always rises tommorrow. or has so far anyways.

I read "Christ, & Him crucified" quite differently... what you speak (rightly) of is the "Christ". There is an "and" there so I don't know how one would take it as "Christ crucified"?

Unless looking for a disagreement with Paul that isn't there?

At any rate this is good conversation thanks all.

God loves who He loves. I don't know how all that works out and honestly I'm fine with that.

I know that I'm supposed to love and I hate; I know I am to seek to serve and I am selfish, am to be full of truth and I lie, etc etc etc.

And yet I receive love.

''’Tis mystery all! The Immortal dies!
Who can explore His strange design?
In vain the firstborn seraph tries
To sound the depths of love Divine!
’Tis mercy all! let earth adore,
Let angel minds inquire no more.
’Tis mercy all! let earth adore,
Let angel minds inquire no more."

We're all free to marvel or not I honestly am fine with you either way. I'll share and argue ideas but at the end of the day all I have I've received; I'd hate to get what I deserve I've got no illusions about that.

Grace & peace to you all!

He did a whole lot more than change the status quo, Gus. He made a way certain for all of mankind to be saved from a fate far worse than death. 'Course many are too dumb/proud/stubborn to understand and accept that. But He knew that too, by name.

Can you have one without the other? And what of the blood? Is it of no consequence? Far, far from it, my friend. By that very blood, Christ purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation. Of course the resurrection is important, but how would it have happened without the cross and the blood there shed?

We won't see anything when we die just like all the other living things that die. If your God would promise to deposit a billion dollars in your bank account when you die that might make him worthy of consideration and also provide some evidence that your God actually exists. When you go to your Heaven what will you do when you there? What if you are dying from cancer and on life support when you die? Will you revert to a younger healthier age? How do babies and young children that die before they are old enough to know religion even exists get to your Heaven? Did you ever tell a child they would go to your Hell if they didn't believe in your God? If you told a child that you are guilty of child abuse. Christians have to be incredibly gullible or brainwashed (most likely by their parents) to believe in eternal life. They can't accept the fact that we are on the earth a very short time and that's all there is. You don't have to believe in a God to live a good moral life in the short time we're here.

Stephen Gardipee's decorations earned as a Loach pilot in Vietnam.

http://valor.militarytimes.com/recipient.php?recipientid=84632

Stephen Gardipee giving a little talk:

I see you've come to conclusions of your own and aren't really interested in what others have to say so I'll take your questions as rhetorical, but add that I don't know. Seriously don't and honestly don't care.

That's because it's mysterious and that's ok.

Like I said, I'm fine with your decision.

he did a lot. what, exactly depends upon our own particular belief system. and that's what we've all been discussing. sometimes we've discussed it in great detail. i know christianity is important for those of us who place great emphasis on the Afterlife. nothing whatsoever wrong with that.

but, there's more. way more. there's life on this earth, for our ancestors, us, our children & grand children, and theirs and theirs. in other words, too much emphasis on life after death and it might cause us to ignore some things in the present life that might mean rectifying for the benefit of those who follow us. many of us seem to have missed that point, not everyone, but many. cutting the trees to make room for more asphalt to allow more parking for the growing church. lol. what a concept.

Victoro,
I agree that you don't have to believe in God to live a good moral life here on earth, If however that life is to be a really good life it should be filled with peace,love,joy,goodness, kindness,gentleness,patience,and self control. If you have all these in your life,then I can't understand how you couldn't see God in that life. If however you are seeking those things in your life,as a Christian I have to tell you that I think they all come from a relationship with God.

I suspect that you are against religion,which some have called Christianity while practicing all the hateful things that comes from religion.That hatefulness has no part in Christianity and only comes from men striving to excel above their fellows. It's only pride that causes a man to debase another man in the name of God. I hate religion too. If you would ever like to talk about any of these things please feel free to PM me. I won't try to guilt you into accepting God but I will be happy to discuss any aspect of my faith that you may have interest in.

Without The Absolute Moral Giver, who decides what's moral? The guy with the most power!

Ricky, there were a series of events in the life and death of Jesus, undoubtably a lot more we DONT know about than the ones recorded in the Bible.

You claimed that the crucifiction was the most important of these events.

I claim the Ressurection is more important, primarily because it is the ONE event I don't have to rely on someone else's word for. He is alive today, I know for a certainty.

Amen. Agree 100%

the first part is debatable. then the second part is also debatable no matter how the first part falls out.

moral giver: yhwh, jesus, buddha, kali, shiva, great spirit, creator, allah, mighty pharoah?

then, at the second level, which "deity" is it ordained that we should worship?

and on what grounds? faith, belief, knowlege, or something else?

lot's of old, abandoned gods lying on the side of the road.

we all want to know the truth, no?

I see there's always some here that want to argue. This comes to mind.

"Choose you this day whom you will serve (or not serve)....... As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."

Jesus doesn't need to be defended. In the end, several here have made it clear what it means to be a Christian (follower of Jesus). You can believe or not.

Jesus doesn't need to be defended. He has legal historical evidence beyond reproof for the objective searcher. But we need to be able to defend our faith. Consider....

1 Peter 3:13-16

"Who is there to harm you if you prove zealous for what is good? But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed. And do not fear their intimidation, and do not be troubled, but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame."

I'm so happy to see so many believers here on the fire...it truly gives me comfort knowing so many good people are out in the world...and attracted to the outdoors!

Haters gonna hate...but I'll keep praying for them and doing my best to be a good example in my day to day life

May God bless you all

I think it comes down to how you do the scratching.

Uh, no. Some prefer the teachings of a church and reject the truths in the word found in the Holy Bible. They accept the teachings of men rather than the teachings from Him.

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word. That word is in the Bible and not in the church.

We can not contemplate that which is not possible, anymore than a dog or horse can contemplate flying to the moon. We contemplate it and we do it, and many of contemplate everlasting life and Heaven. Too bad you dont.

So, you accept that Moslems can go to Heaven without accepting Jesus Christ as Savior due to them, according to the Church, having the "faith of Abraham", rather than what the Bible says?

Believe me when I say Lindsay Lohan could warm my heart and make me holler, "Oh my God".

And jell0 was certain of Russian collusion. Bfd. Separate truth from fiction, or it will be made clear to you. Remember the prophecy written 2000-3000 years ago. The Jews will regain their homeland, and it will not be lost again. Happened just before i was born and unbelievable to most on earth at the time, but as usual, His words were true.

Jag, did you just use Jeff O's drugged blathering to illustrate the truth of prophecies purportedly written 2-3k years ago? Perhaps you should cut back on the drinking because you sound crazier than Pelosi.


mike r