As far as who wrote what......... I can't say that it makes me any difference. SOMEBODY thought it and wrote it and it makes sense. It makes sense because it fits the simplicity of the Jesus message.You may ask what I believe the Jesus message to be so I'll answer before you ask..........
Yep...... Never noticed anything about an immaculate conception where the Mother of God, her mother and on back thru the ages had to be sinless.
The Creator of the universe will not be harnessed verbatim to words written by men who were only getting a glimpse of Divinity and filling in the blanks with their imaginings. To this day it is all we are capable of.
You would do well to lay aside your bible and do as Peter suggested......... study YOUR conscience " as to a light shining in a dark place" and leave off counseling others.
You're doing a lot of adding to the Word there. The Catholics believe in the un-Biblical "immaculate conception. None of Apostle Paul's works today even hint of that.
Somehow along the way you have been deceived to think you conscience is better than God's Word. God tells us He sends a deluding influence on those who wish to believe a lie.
As far as Apostle Peter is concerned you are taking some major liberties. He says about the things Paul writes in 2 Peter 3:14-16:
"Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction."
We see Peter is including Paul's writing in Scripture.
Except 2nd Peter wasn't written by the same person who wrote 1st Peter.
Gene is on to something about the influence of fallible men upon the scriptures.
And you know this how?
You really need to learn about Textual Criticism.
Your recent posts have descended into the area of a Liberal.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
Yep...... Never noticed anything about an immaculate conception where the Mother of God, her mother and on back thru the ages had to be sinless.
The Creator of the universe will not be harnessed verbatim to words written by men who were only getting a glimpse of Divinity and filling in the blanks with their imaginings. To this day it is all we are capable of.
You would do well to lay aside your bible and do as Peter suggested......... study YOUR conscience " as to a light shining in a dark place" and leave off counseling others.
You're doing a lot of adding to the Word there. The Catholics believe in the un-Biblical "immaculate conception. None of Apostle Paul's works today even hint of that.
Somehow along the way you have been deceived to think you conscience is better than God's Word. God tells us He sends a deluding influence on those who wish to believe a lie.
As far as Apostle Peter is concerned you are taking some major liberties. He says about the things Paul writes in 2 Peter 3:14-16:
"Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction."
We see Peter is including Paul's writing in Scripture.
Except 2nd Peter wasn't written by the same person who wrote 1st Peter.
Gene is on to something about the influence of fallible men upon the scriptures.
And you know this how?
You really need to learn about Textual Criticism.
Your recent posts have descended into the area of a Liberal.
Originally Posted by BarryC
Originally Posted by Ringman
BarryC,
I was thinking of Sola Scriptura as Luther used it. You are using the Scripture to show there are things that are not recorded in Scripture. At the end of John we are taught the world could not contain all the books that would be written if all that Jesus did was written down. Today we can't use what was not written down. Most don't use what IS written.
Ah, yes, I wanted to use that passage, but I forgot about it. Old I guess. But, yes we CAN use what was not written. It's called Apostolic Tradition and the Catholic Church is the only church to maintain the fullness of that tradition. Paul said "I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you" (1 Cor. 11:2), and "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thess. 2:15) are just a couple.
At the same time we are not to add to Scripture; which is what you are espousing.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
Possibly I'm posting this because the "Pentecostals" thread got me thinking,but then I've been thinking along these lines for some time now. I've been saved-born again a little over 20 years now. I've reached a place where I'm just about fed up with Religion. I've always looked at religion as different than Christianity but even much more so the last 6-8 years since I've began to understand the wonderful gift that Christ really gave us,his grace and love toward us. Religion is just a system made up to try to get close to God. Christianity is God's way to get close to us,if you want to put it in a nut shell. I'm not going to make this real long though just short and to the point.
First, I want to express what I think religion is, and what I think many churches have become. It seems to me that churches are filled with people who want to do their duty to God,get their star beside their name,and get back to their business as fast as possible. Most of them think that being a Christian is about a list of rules that they have to follow. If they follow them well,Heaven,if not Hell,unless of coarse they repent with many tears and promise never to do it again. This group knows that God is in there somewhere, but mostly think he is there to judge how well they repented,or how bad they sinned. They are consumed by rules and regulations,constantly searching the scriptures for some rule or regulation that they missed,because it is by following these rules and regulations that they think they will please God. They are unfulfilled because they know in their hearts that they never give 100%,and they think they will never attain the place God wants them to be and please him in the way he wants ,until they somehow reach this unattainable goal. They however always ask you to pray for them to attain this unattainable goal, and pray that you will attain it also.
Now let me say very simply what Christianity is. God made man. Man messed up. Man couldn't fix it,but God couldn't fix it for him because it was his responsibility to fix. God knew man couldn't fix his own problem ,so he became a man and fixed it himself. All man has to do now is trust that God fixed his problem and live like it's fixed. It really is that simple. All God wants is for us to trust him,love him,and love each other.
Church should be a celebration about what Jesus has done for us and a place where we can learn how to better love each other. It should be a place where we could learn all about what Jesus did for us,is doing for us,and is going to do for us. It should be a place where we can have all our spiritual needs taken care of and talk about the best way to take care of our physical and emotional needs as well.
Maybe God's moving me in this direction. I guess we will see.
Excellent.
Its all right to be white!! Stupidity left unattended will run rampant Don't argue with stupid people, They will drag you down to their level and then win by experience
Maybe you here illustrate the difference between the wisdom and strength of God and the silliness and weakness of mankind.
You are presuming a god, that fits a specific definition exists. Of course you will never define that god, nor issue an argument for his alleged existence.
To support your assertion about my presumption, kindly pluck from my posts the specific definition I have given - and post it here. Absent that, it appears that you have presumed a presumption.
So you are claiming he's indefinable?
Ooops - there you go again - attempting to place words on my tongue or thoughts in my brain. You know full well that I made no such claim. You pretended that I presumed a specific definition of God - but you can't produce that, so you shift to a different misrepresentation. Come on - you are a bright fellow - you can do better than that.
It's a binary question. Either you can define that which you claim is god, or you can't. If you can't define it, there's not good reason to believe it exist.
Of course you are just taking the art of moving the goal posts to a new level by not even acknowledging they may exist.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
As far as who wrote what......... I can't say that it makes me any difference. SOMEBODY thought it and wrote it and it makes sense. It makes sense because it fits the simplicity of the Jesus message.You may ask what I believe the Jesus message to be so I'll answer before you ask..........
"All you need to know is ME".
Gene,
If some way you sound like an old Gnostic, receiving his direct revelations from Jesus. Of course since many claimed they could receive direct revelations, just like Paul did, it lead to something on the order fo over 300 Gnostic Text, before as you mentioned early, Constantine decided Christianity needed to be standardized, and his government picked the winners and looses in this battle of Faith.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
An existance of flesh and blood does not necessitate the existence of a god.
If we accept that we are the product of an Infinite Creative Force, which deserves to be called God, then the only legitimate question we face is " why".
If we are not a product of that force then there are a myriad of questions to be answered and the final one will still remain........"why".
As far as who wrote what......... I can't say that it makes me any difference. SOMEBODY thought it and wrote it and it makes sense. It makes sense because it fits the simplicity of the Jesus message.You may ask what I believe the Jesus message to be so I'll answer before you ask..........
"All you need to know is ME".
Gene,
If some way you sound like an old Gnostic, receiving his direct revelations from Jesus. Of course since many claimed they could receive direct revelations, just like Paul did, it lead to something on the order fo over 300 Gnostic Text, before as you mentioned early, Constantine decided Christianity needed to be standardized, and his government picked the winners and looses in this battle of Faith.
We don't know how many different gnostic sects there were. I might well have fit in one of them.
The difference is that I believe the revelation is available to anyone with an open mind.
A God who can't reveal himself to any honest seeker is not worthy of being called God.
I believe Jesus founded His Fellowship (not church) on the premise that the "Father" could reveal the Son to whomever He chose.... just as He did with Peter, and earlier with John the Baptist, then later with Paul.
Anyone calling themselves a "Christian" should have recieved that revelation.
Your recent posts have descended into the area of a Liberal.
If you mean Classic Liberal, and not the modern definition, yes I'll accept that. If telling someone they need to expand the scope of their education and knowledge to better understand that of which they speak, than yes, I'm guilty.
Many of your belief about the world we live in are off by ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE. Your belief regard the age of the earth is nearly off by a factor of A MILLION. It's as if you believed the moon as a mere 300 yards from the earth, and with a good swing of a driver you could hit it with a golf ball.
If believing that in the age of nuclear power, The Large Hadron Collider, , cell phones, The Internet, and Amazon.com we can critically analyze the texts of brutal bronze age warlords without attributing them to a mythical creator of this universe and blindly following them, then yes, I am a Classic Liberal. We believe in education.
You, on the other hand, remain a hidebound Young Earth Creationist.
Last edited by antelope_sniper; 07/22/17.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
since all the heavy hitters are weighing in, might be time for a pinch hitter or two just to add a dollop of gravity.
god acting under and in his capacity of omneity can and will save anyone and everyone whom he chooses to save, no?
even if someone doesn't want to be saved, if god wants him/her to be saved, he'll find a way to pull the effort off in his favor.
omneity is such a concept that it almost allows for anything, as long as god's will is achieved. and his will shall almost certainly be achieved.
i guess this is where five-point, or at least three point calvinism raises its ugly little head, but to the denial of many who walk among us. the Elect???
Gus, you are delving into predestination (and Calvinism) -- interesting -- and a concept I believe is almost always confusing to the human mind. I'm sure God doesn't save someone who doesn't want to be saved which would be a contradiction of wills. He doesn't force anything on us but rather leaves us to our desires, lusts, and whatever other devious devices we may come up with. He will give the man or women who continually rejects him and accountability to him over to his unbelief until he might not ever to be able change his ways.
Our choices as free moral agents (like the angels) are completely on us. Where our free choices interface with God's choosing and sovereignty can be a difficult concept to understand.
your comments seem to afford human beings more (or greater) power and control than we actually possess. we are creatures of creation, that is we have genetics composed of chemical matter that possesses electrical valence. that means we can do no more than our basic design allows us to do. we have been influenced by environment and knowledge/learning as "constraints" on genetics. you might well agree with me up to this point.
but, if god is truly omneity, then he can lift the heaviest rock, so to speak. nothing can outshadow his wishes, demands, desires. he is omneity afterall, and we're nothing but filthy rags as my grandmom might declare. so, lot's of predestination (& re-incarnation) talk in the early christian sects/cults/groups/churches i believe. they got left out as the evolution of the church continued, lot's of it under state control. what wasn't popular or acceptable to the ldrshp had to hit the hi-way, so to speak. anyways, yes predestination is quite the interesting subject. some go so far as to say that some individuals arrive on earth already saved, some are saved while currently on the earth, and a third group will be saved later on as the process continues to unfold. i guess we'll find out sooner or later, or maybe not.
An existance of flesh and blood does not necessitate the existence of a god.
If we accept that we are the product of an Infinite Creative Force, which deserves to be called God, then the only legitimate question we face is " why".
If we are not a product of that force then there are a myriad of questions to be answered and the final one will still remain........"why".
Before we accept that we are the product of an intelligent infinite create force, we need evidence for it. Even if you accept the Kalam Cosmological Argument, which I don't because it rests upon the fallacy of special pleading, it only gets you to a creative force It tells you nothing about this alleged creative force, so there is no way to bridge to gap from there to the Christian God. So until there's sufficient reason to believe in your "Infinite Creative Force, which deserves to be called God" the rest of your argument falls because I do not accept your first proposition.
Last edited by antelope_sniper; 07/22/17.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
I do believe that Christians are to be lead by the Holy Spirit and have a real relationship with God. That does not mean however that I think it's a good idea to throw your Bible away. Jesus himself was a scholar of the written word and often referred to specific passages of scripture. Yes,Christians can become legalistic regarding the letter and completely miss the Spirit. The Pharisee is the perfect example. The correct way is to allow the Holy Spirit to interpret God's word and bring revelation that would never come without Him. That's not to say that God won't just talk to believers because he will.
YOU are your evidence. You don't see it because you look outward.
You can't find ANYTHING if you refuse to look where it is.
"He is within you, look not for Him elsewhere". ..... Bro. Lawrence, I believe.
I exist. That's evidence for biology, not a god that care's with whom a sleep with and in what position.
We have scientifically valid theories for this universe as we know it, all the way back to the Planck Time, and none of them require the intervention of a divine intelligent agent. In the words of Simon Laplace, "There is No Need for God as a Hypothesis."
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
I do believe that Christians are to be lead by the Holy Spirit and have a real relationship with God. That does not mean however that I think it's a good idea to throw your Bible away. Jesus himself was a scholar of the written word and often referred to specific passages of scripture. Yes,Christians can become legalistic regarding the letter and completely miss the Spirit. The Pharisee is the perfect example. The correct way is to allow the Holy Spirit to interpret God's word and bring revelation that would never come without Him. That's not to say that God won't just talk to believers because he will.
Nor do I think it should be thrown away. It's great literature. With in are may literary truths, even though the story are not true in the literal sense.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
I do believe that Christians are to be lead by the Holy Spirit and have a real relationship with God. That does not mean however that I think it's a good idea to throw your Bible away. Jesus himself was a scholar of the written word and often referred to specific passages of scripture. Yes,Christians can become legalistic regarding the letter and completely miss the Spirit. The Pharisee is the perfect example. The correct way is to allow the Holy Spirit to interpret God's word and bring revelation that would never come without Him. That's not to say that God won't just talk to believers because he will.
Nor do I think it should be thrown away. It's great literature. With in are may literary truths, even though the story are not true in the literal sense.
What is truth? Is it only that which you agree with?
I do believe that Christians are to be lead by the Holy Spirit and have a real relationship with God. That does not mean however that I think it's a good idea to throw your Bible away. Jesus himself was a scholar of the written word and often referred to specific passages of scripture. Yes,Christians can become legalistic regarding the letter and completely miss the Spirit. The Pharisee is the perfect example. The correct way is to allow the Holy Spirit to interpret God's word and bring revelation that would never come without Him. That's not to say that God won't just talk to believers because he will.
I know of three friends who claim they heard the audible Word of God.
Many here remember Ken Howell. He told me the Words were, "Read the red letters."
Another was a guy who earned straight "A"s for eight years of college. He tried out for Mr. Oregon twice a few years apart and won both times. He was good looking to boot. He had a successful business. I prayed the Lord would beast up on him. He told me one day he was literally crying from pressure in life. He didn't necessarily believe in God because of twenty years of state brainwashing indoctrination. But in desperation he "cried out to the generic god", "God, I need some help!" He told me instantly he heard a booming voice coming from all direction at the same time, "You need to turn to Me, change your friends, and change your ways." I kidded him, "God likes you more than He does me. I have to read His Word."
The last one was a pastor I knew. He told me about while walking in his church one time and mused to himself, "What a great church I've built here." A voice filled the sanctuary and asked, "Who built this?!"
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
I do believe that Christians are to be lead by the Holy Spirit and have a real relationship with God. That does not mean however that I think it's a good idea to throw your Bible away. Jesus himself was a scholar of the written word and often referred to specific passages of scripture. Yes,Christians can become legalistic regarding the letter and completely miss the Spirit. The Pharisee is the perfect example. The correct way is to allow the Holy Spirit to interpret God's word and bring revelation that would never come without Him. That's not to say that God won't just talk to believers because he will.
Nor do I think it should be thrown away. It's great literature. With in are may literary truths, even though the story are not true in the literal sense.
What is truth? Is it only that which you agree with?
RH,
Let me give you an non-Christian example of a deep literary truth. Although none of the characters in they myth ever existed, it can bring a different perspective to the human condition.
I hope you find this enjoyable:
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
