Maryland’s ‘Red Flag’ Law Turns Deadly: Officer Kills Man Who Refused To Turn In Gun
FERNADALE, Md. (WJZ) — A 61-year-old man is dead after he was shot by an officer trying to enforce Maryland’s new ‘red flag’ law in Ferndale Monday morning.
Anne Arundel County Police confirmed the police-involved shooting happened in the 100 block of Linwood Avenue around 5:17 a.m.
According to police, two officers serving a new Extreme Risk Protective Order (Red Flag Law), a Maryland protective order to remove guns from a household, shot and killed the man listed on that order.
“Under the law, family, police, mental health professionals can all ask for the protective orders to remove weapons,” said Sgt. Jacklyn David, with Anne Arundel County Police.
That man was identified as Gary J. Willis of same address.
Officials said Willis answered the door while holding a handgun.
Willis then placed the gun next to the door.
When officers began to serve him the order, Willis became irate and grabbed his gun.
One of the officers tried to take the gun from Willis, but instead Willis fired the gun.
The second officer fired a gun, striking Willis. He died at the scene."
We never did find out why they're filling and ERPA order at 5 in the morning. You roll me outta bed for anything other than hunting at 5 am, I'm gonna be a cranky SOB! But seriously, 5:00 am? 7mm
I'm not in favor of red flag laws because they are unconstitutional, but pulling your gun on two cops is just plain stupid. Maybe the old dude was crazy.....probably thought he was Matt Dillon or something.
61 ain't that old. This will be the law the left uses to justify disarming all of the deplorables. We must be crazy to not see the wisdom in their agenda, and plans for our future.
Many here are reading a lot into this without knowing much about it. Is it your suggestion that nobody in society should ever be disarmed? Then how would you know this guy should not be, given the lack of detail?
You know I get the apprehension over the red flag laws, but what about red flags raised over anyone who gets 5150’d, would that be acceptable to you? 5150 isn’t arbitrary, it isn’t political, it’s a medical professional stating you are a danger to yourself or others. Seems like something that makes sense, if it doesn’t, then frankly I think you are willing to put the public at risk in order not to budge an inch? I’m pretty sure that it is already the case that if you are deemed a danger, they would already come get your firearms, so let them deem that a red flag and now they can’t say we don’t care or unwilling to make common sense gun law.
Red Flag laws are just wrong. They are a license for chicanery and if passed will negate the Second Amendment.
Well, do you support taking firearms from people deemed a danger to themselves or others by a medical professional? Or do you object to the term “red flag”? So be the ones to define “red flag”,define red flag as taking firearms from somebody 5150’d by a medical professional. Take the issue by being the one to define the issue.
How bout we don't pass needless harmful legislation that takes citizens rights away. There are legal avenues one can use to detain someone that is harmful to himself or others. What is it with this stupidity of wanting a new law for curtailing our freedom?
How bout we don't pass needless harmful legislation that takes citizens rights away. There are legal avenues one can use to detain someone that is harmful to himself or others. What is it with this stupidity of wanting a new law for curtailing our freedom?
You know I get the apprehension over the red flag laws, but what about red flags raised over anyone who gets 5150’d, would that be acceptable to you? 5150 isn’t arbitrary, it isn’t political, it’s a medical professional stating you are a danger to yourself or others.
Originally Posted by Barkoff
Many here are reading a lot into this without knowing much about it. Is it your suggestion that nobody in society should ever be disarmed? Then how would you know this guy should not be, given the lack of detail?
The problem with that is that can be used and will be used to deprive people that have not been convicted of a crime of their Constitutional Rights.
If you think or say something that offends someone, you will find yourself in that black hole. Thought Police? 1984?
Just WHO makes those determinations of your mental fitness to own a firearm?...
Say you were in a car wreck when you were 19 years old where both parents were killed, and you were badly injured. You had months of rehab. The disruption to your life lead to depression. Doctors recommended you go get some help for that, and you spend 2 weeks in a facility for depression where you learned the tools to cope with your issues.... Congratulations! Now, at age 34, with no further issues, you go in to buy a shotgun to protect your growing family.... And are ruled unfit to buy or own a gun!
Congrats?
Do you trust the GOVERNMENT to administer these laws/policies?
Given the govt's history of fugging everything they touch up beyond all reason or repair.... NO!
The answer is so simple it is amazing. Joe Blow has an AR15 rifle.
Joe Blow makes public terroristic threat on social media or where people take notice.
District Atty. reviews evidence and files charges of Terroristic Threat on him. Issues warrant.
Police arrest Joe Blow and put him in jail, and at that point, his guns are no longer in his hands. If convicted, he longer has the right to own guns.
What details have come out since then? I haven't heard anything about why the order was given? Shouldn't we be able to find out why someone thought he was a danger? And didn't we have laws on the books to take care of crazies before the red flag laws ever got passed in Maryland? I hope for the sake of police here they don't start this in the state of Misery. I have friends on the police force. Be Well. Rusty
I'm not in favor of red flag laws because they are unconstitutional, but pulling your gun on two cops is just plain stupid. Maybe the old dude was crazy.....probably thought he was Matt Dillon or something.
To him, being subject to tyranny was a worse fate than death. The Founding Father's felt that way, too.
Many here are reading a lot into this without knowing much about it. Is it your suggestion that nobody in society should ever be disarmed? Then how would you know this guy should not be, given the lack of detail?
When someone is suspected of being unstable and a threat to themselves or others, there are methods for dealing with this involving a hearing where the accused has a chance to face his accusers and contradict them with the aid of legal representation, a neutral judge, and a jury of his peers. That has to happen first, before any action is taken against him or his property. We are presumed innocent in the US till proven otherwise in a proper court of law. Yes, there are risks to society in this. A free people is willing to accept that risk.
Many here are reading a lot into this without knowing much about it. Is it your suggestion that nobody in society should ever be disarmed? Then how would you know this guy should not be, given the lack of detail?
When someone is suspected of being unstable and a threat to themselves or others, there are methods for dealing with this involving a hearing where the accused has a chance to face his accusers and contradict them with the aid of legal representation, a neutral judge, and a jury of his peers. That has to happen first, before any action is taken against him or his property. We are presumed innocent in the US till proven otherwise in a proper court of law. Yes, there are risks to society in this. A free people is willing to accept that risk.
This. ^^^ Surely these state laws will end up at the SCOTUS level.
The problem with that is that can be used and will be used to deprive people that have not been convicted of a crime of their Constitutional Rights.
If you think or say something that offends someone, you will find yourself in that black hole. Thought Police? 1984?
Just WHO makes those determinations of your mental fitness to own a firearm?...
Say you were in a car wreck when you were 19 years old where both parents were killed, and you were badly injured. You had months of rehab. The disruption to your life lead to depression. Doctors recommended you go get some help for that, and you spend 2 weeks in a facility for depression where you learned the tools to cope with your issues.... Congratulations! Now, at age 34, with no further issues, you go in to buy a shotgun to protect your growing family.... And are ruled unfit to buy or own a gun!
Congrats?
Do you trust the GOVERNMENT to administer these laws/policies?
Given the govt's history of fugging everything they touch up beyond all reason or repair.... NO!
The answer is so simple it is amazing. Joe Blow has an AR15 rifle.
Joe Blow makes public terroristic threat on social media or where people take notice.
District Atty. reviews evidence and files charges of Terroristic Threat on him. Issues warrant.
Police arrest Joe Blow and put him in jail, and at that point, his guns are no longer in his hands. If convicted, he longer has the right to own guns.
I'm not in favor of red flag laws because they are unconstitutional, but pulling your gun on two cops is just plain stupid. Maybe the old dude was crazy.....probably thought he was Matt Dillon or something.
He probably thought he was a minute man, and was wondering why he didn't hear the call to arms in the middle of the night. I mean, since we're speculating.
P.S. The minute men standing up to the world's largest standing army was just plain stupid, too.
Many here are reading a lot into this without knowing much about it. Is it your suggestion that nobody in society should ever be disarmed? Then how would you know this guy should not be, given the lack of detail?
When someone is suspected of being unstable and a threat to themselves or others, there are methods for dealing with this involving a hearing where the accused has a chance to face his accusers and contradict them with the aid of legal representation, a neutral judge, and a jury of his peers. That has to happen first, before any action is taken against him or his property. We are presumed innocent in the US till proven otherwise in a proper court of law. Yes, there are risks to society in this. A free people is willing to accept that risk.
That's the problem with society anymore, they accept NO risk. They want their freedom but anytime anything goes haywire they want you to lose your freedom to fix it.
They don't realize me losing my freedom is them losing their freedom. That's the problem with society splitting down the middle. Each side wants the other to make all the changes and lose all their freedoms so they can continue on their merry little way unimpeded. Doesn't work that way when the government brokers the deal.
When officers began to serve him the order, Willis became irate and grabbed his gun.
He was an idiot. That'll get you shot even when they're giving you a ticket for a barking dog. They didn't shoot him for the red flag law. They shot him in self defense. The cops have the right to defend themselves.
When officers began to serve him the order, Willis became irate and grabbed his gun.
He was an idiot. That'll get you shot even when they're giving you a ticket for a barking dog. They didn't shoot him for the red flag law. They shot him in self defense. The cops have the right to defend themselves.
Do the cops also take an oath to uphold the Constitution?
You know I get the apprehension over the red flag laws, but what about red flags raised over anyone who gets 5150’d, would that be acceptable to you? 5150 isn’t arbitrary, it isn’t political, it’s a medical professional stating you are a danger to yourself or others. Seems like something that makes sense, if it doesn’t, then frankly I think you are willing to put the public at risk in order not to budge an inch? I’m pretty sure that it is already the case that if you are deemed a danger, they would already come get your firearms, so let them deem that a red flag and now they can’t say we don’t care or unwilling to make common sense gun law.
A 5150 must be a medical billing code of some kind. I have never heard of it as being a legal code.
You know I get the apprehension over the red flag laws, but what about red flags raised over anyone who gets 5150’d, would that be acceptable to you? 5150 isn’t arbitrary, it isn’t political, it’s a medical professional stating you are a danger to yourself or others. Seems like something that makes sense, if it doesn’t, then frankly I think you are willing to put the public at risk in order not to budge an inch? I’m pretty sure that it is already the case that if you are deemed a danger, they would already come get your firearms, so let them deem that a red flag and now they can’t say we don’t care or unwilling to make common sense gun law.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
You know I get the apprehension over the red flag laws, but what about red flags raised over anyone who gets 5150’d, would that be acceptable to you? 5150 isn’t arbitrary, it isn’t political, it’s a medical professional stating you are a danger to yourself or others. Seems like something that makes sense, if it doesn’t, then frankly I think you are willing to put the public at risk in order not to budge an inch? I’m pretty sure that it is already the case that if you are deemed a danger, they would already come get your firearms, so let them deem that a red flag and now they can’t say we don’t care or unwilling to make common sense gun law.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
What kind of "medical professional" gets to sign the red flag order? Maybe the same one who asks leading questions during a routine physical exam like "Do you have any firearms at home?" "Have you ever had thoughts of suicide?" "Do you feel depressed?" Etc. It's easy to build a theoretical case that a perfectly normal person is a danger to himself or others, and here comes the Gestapo at the crack of dawn! Jerry
Yep, the routine questions nurses ask you when you're admitted to the hospital now take on a deadly dimension. If she accidentally checks yes, next to the question about feeling depressed or suicidal, instead of no, like you actually responded, that will go into your record, and when you are released from the hospital, you may find your home was broken into and your firearms removed. Or, perhaps a week later, you will receive a knock on your door.
P.S. The minute men standing up to the world's largest standing army was just plain stupid, too.
And where would we be if they didn't? We would have no guns, no freedom of speech, due process, ect. I am not going to say that I would have joined them, maybe I would, but probably not.
A few of them lost everything they had, including their wive's and children!!!
However, I am forever grateful that they had the intestinal fortitude to fight for the rights we have now.
Fighting for something you truly believe in will give you the steely resolve to win the fight!!
Stupid? Perhaps...I will not argue that point. Everybody has an opinion.
Brave and courageous? Without a doubt.
By your reasoning, stupid people can build a country.
Imagine what type of a country we would have if the smart people didn't fight the British.
With these Red Flag laws now in affect, I fear we will find out.
When officers began to serve him the order, Willis became irate and grabbed his gun.
He was an idiot. That'll get you shot even when they're giving you a ticket for a barking dog. They didn't shoot him for the red flag law. They shot him in self defense. The cops have the right to defend themselves.
Cops don’t have the right to create, then escalate, a dangerous volatile situation... then shoot you once the situation they created spirals out of their “control”.
Red Flag laws are going to get WAY more people killed, than they’re going to “save”.... half of whom are going to be cops serving said orders...
What kind of "medical professional" gets to sign the red flag order? Maybe the same one who asks leading questions during a routine physical exam like "Do you have any firearms at home?" "Have you ever had thoughts of suicide?" "Do you feel depressed?" Etc. It's easy to build a theoretical case that a perfectly normal person is a danger to himself or others, and here comes the Gestapo at the crack of dawn! Jerry
This is absolutely citical. Define medical health professional. Is it my dental hygienist? A lab tech? Is it a certified mental health doctor like a psychiatrist or just the local school psychologist? Is it my neighbor or my ex-wife who has a grudge against me?
I have a pat answer for those questions- - - - -"None of your damned business!" Repeat as required! Jerry
Make the surly nurse angry with a response like that, and she could check the box next to yes, leading to a knock on your door by the police a few days later. That's all it takes under these Red Flag laws. No judge is going to refuse to authorize it, for fear of things going badly if he doesn't. "Better safe than sorry," will be a judge's attitude on these.
We all know where this is headed and what they're after, there's no point pretending we don't.
The question is what are we going to do about it?
I've already let my US Representative know that I expect him to fight this with great vigor, and that my support for him in the next election is in the balance. Next week, we need to burn up the phone lines into DC to our Senators, US Reps, and the White House.
You know I get the apprehension over the red flag laws, but what about red flags raised over anyone who gets 5150’d, would that be acceptable to you? 5150 isn’t arbitrary, it isn’t political, it’s a medical professional stating you are a danger to yourself or others. Seems like something that makes sense, if it doesn’t, then frankly I think you are willing to put the public at risk in order not to budge an inch? I’m pretty sure that it is already the case that if you are deemed a danger, they would already come get your firearms, so let them deem that a red flag and now they can’t say we don’t care or unwilling to make common sense gun law.
It’s only as non-arbitrary or political as the medical professional in question. Given the Left’s insistence that words and ideas are violence it is extraordinarily naive that one would not envision where this isn’t making sense.
These are constitutional rights given by God, not arbitrary privileges given by the state.
You know I get the apprehension over the red flag laws, but what about red flags raised over anyone who gets 5150’d, would that be acceptable to you? 5150 isn’t arbitrary, it isn’t political, it’s a medical professional stating you are a danger to yourself or others. Seems like something that makes sense, if it doesn’t, then frankly I think you are willing to put the public at risk in order not to budge an inch? I’m pretty sure that it is already the case that if you are deemed a danger, they would already come get your firearms, so let them deem that a red flag and now they can’t say we don’t care or unwilling to make common sense gun law.
It’s only as non-arbitrary or political as the medical professional in question. Given the Left’s insistence that words and ideas are violence it is extraordinarily naive that one would not envision where this isn’t making sense.
These are constitutional rights given by God, not arbitrary privileges given by the state.
When officers began to serve him the order, Willis became irate and grabbed his gun.
He was an idiot. That'll get you shot even when they're giving you a ticket for a barking dog. They didn't shoot him for the red flag law. They shot him in self defense. The cops have the right to defend themselves.
Yes, the cops were there because of an illegal law but you don't pull a gun on cops no matter what. All you'll accomplish is getting yourself shot. There are ways to fight illegal laws but getting killed isn't a smart one. The guy was an idiot.
Yes, the cops were there because of an illegal law but you don't pull a gun on cops no matter what. All you'll accomplish is getting yourself shot. There are ways to fight illegal laws but getting killed isn't a smart one. The guy was an idiot.
Ya don't suppose it was idiotic that LE was at his door to confiscate guns in the first place? Just who is supposed to have good judgment or be more responsible at using their brains and have some common sense in this country, the authorities or an individual being accused?
The local news said the man put the gun on a table beside the front door. A scuffle broke out when the man realized why the cops were there. The gun was knocked to the floor and discharged. On hearing the gun go off, one of the cops started shooting.
The local news said the man put the gun on a table beside the front door. A scuffle broke out when the man realized why the cops were there. The gun was knocked to the floor and discharged. On hearing the gun go off, one of the cops started shooting.
Cops showing up to someone's door out of the blue (without any prior knowledge on the part of the subject that anything was even amiss) to take his guns (someone the cops were told was a deadly threat, thus the order) is super likely to result in someone's death.
Looks like McConnell is leading the charge to neuter the 1st, 2nd, 4th, and the 5th Amendments for gun owning Americans. He's pushing for Trump's desired new Red Flag laws at the Federal level.
When someone is suspected of being unstable and a threat to themselves or others, there are methods for dealing with this involving a hearing where the accused has a chance to face his accusers and contradict them with the aid of legal representation, a neutral judge, and a jury of his peers. That has to happen first, before any action is taken against him or his property. We are presumed innocent in the US till proven otherwise in a proper court of law. Yes, there are risks to society in this. A free people is willing to accept that risk.
Exactly this. The Constitution allows citizens' property to be taken but only after due process of law, and you've covered all of the high points of that. Ability to face your accuser, not the ability for any anonymous person to make any claim against you they want. Presumption of innocence first and foremost - the government has to prove that their claims are true before acting, not after the fact.
Even laws that follow due process can be abused, eminent domain being one example. Having a law on the books that flagrantly throws out every cornerstone of due process is, I don't know how to describe just how un-American this is. It is a textbook example of the very abuse of power the framers of the Constitution tried to prevent and deliberately spits on that document.
Red flag laws are unconstitutional for several reasons. You are assumed quilty when someone makes the accusation and then must prove your innocence. Even if you are completely cooperative and hand over all your firearms there is no guarantee you will get them back once the issue is resolved in your favor. LE will go through your guns and take what they want. The rest will be destroyed or lost and when you go to pick them up, they won't return them, you will be told sorry Charlie.
People get emotional about their firearms, not because of the firearm itself, but because of the memories associated with them. Hunts with your grandfather or you dad. Days spent in the field and conversations with good friends. As we get older we enjoy looking at our guns and remembering days gone by. For some those days are over and no more memories will be made.
When someone is suspected of being unstable and a threat to themselves or others, there are methods for dealing with this involving a hearing where the accused has a chance to face his accusers and contradict them with the aid of legal representation, a neutral judge, and a jury of his peers. That has to happen first, before any action is taken against him or his property. We are presumed innocent in the US till proven otherwise in a proper court of law. Yes, there are risks to society in this. A free people is willing to accept that risk.
Exactly this. The Constitution allows citizens' property to be taken but only after due process of law, and you've covered all of the high points of that. Ability to face your accuser, not the ability for any anonymous person to make any claim against you they want. Presumption of innocence first and foremost - the government has to prove that their claims are true before acting, not after the fact.
We've seen abuses of laws that actually follow due process - eminent domain as one example. Having a law on the books that flagrantly throws out every cornerstone of due process is, I don't know how to describe just how un-American this is. It is a textbook example of the very abuse of power the framers of the Constitution tried to prevent and deliberately spits on that document.
Red flag laws are unconstitutional for several reasons. You are assumed quilty when someone makes the accusation and then must prove your innocence. Even if you are completely cooperative and hand over all your firearms there is no guarantee you will get them back once the issue is resolved in your favor. LE will go through your guns and take what they want. The rest will be destroyed or lost and when you go to pick them up, they won't return them, you will be told sorry Charlie.
People get emotional about their firearms, not because of the firearm itself, but because of the memories associated with them. Hunts with your grandfather or you dad. Days spent in the field and conversations with good friends. As we get older we enjoy looking at our guns and remembering days gone by. For some those days are over and no more memories will be made.
The same is not true of hammers and drills.
Beyond that, they represent your status as a free citizen of a free nation. Disarming a free man is to make him a slave, and our instinct as Americans is to resist enslavement, even to the point of death.
What kind of "medical professional" gets to sign the red flag order? Maybe the same one who asks leading questions during a routine physical exam like "Do you have any firearms at home?" "Have you ever had thoughts of suicide?" "Do you feel depressed?" Etc. It's easy to build a theoretical case that a perfectly normal person is a danger to himself or others, and here comes the Gestapo at the crack of dawn! Jerry
This is absolutely citical. Define medical health professional. Is it my dental hygienist? A lab tech? Is it a certified mental health doctor like a psychiatrist or just the local school psychologist? Is it my neighbor or my ex-wife who has a grudge agaionst me?
This is a golden ticket for liberals to harass and bludgeon any and all gun owners and ANTIFA is all the proof you need that, given a platform, that mob is relentless and merciless. Many liberals have no qualms making false claims to move their agenda and there are plenty of liberal medical professionals that would happily sign-off on an order to go after a law-abiding gun owner fully believing they're doing a "good thing". Can you even imagine the personal, professional, financial, legal and medical consequences of having to constantly defend yourself against this ongoing onslaught on your property, personal/professional standing and freedom? Not good......
The local news said the man put the gun on a table beside the front door. A scuffle broke out when the man realized why the cops were there. The gun was knocked to the floor and discharged. On hearing the gun go off, one of the cops started shooting.
That leaves out a step. He put the gun down, then when he heard what they wanted, he picked it up again. Then the scuffle started.
I won't argue that the law is wrong and the whole thing should have never happened. But, he was an idiot to pull a gun on 2 cops. As soon as he did that, it became self defense for the cops and they had the right to defend themselves.
The local news said the man put the gun on a table beside the front door. A scuffle broke out when the man realized why the cops were there. The gun was knocked to the floor and discharged. On hearing the gun go off, one of the cops started shooting.
That leaves out a step. He put the gun down, then when he heard what they wanted, he picked it up again. Then the scuffle started.
I won't argue that the law is wrong and the whole thing should have never happened. But, he was an idiot to pull a gun on 2 cops. As soon as he did that, it became self defense for the cops and they had the right to defend themselves.
I generally support cops, but I disagree with them this time for several reasons. - They were there well outside normal hours - Report says the gun was dropped and went off when it hit the floor. Dropping a firearm is not a capital crime, even in front of a cop. - The cops probably have to simply serve warrants they are given, but this case is a very bad way to start enforcing the new law and certainly they have plenty of cases better than his niece called him crazy!"
You know I get the apprehension over the red flag laws, but what about red flags raised over anyone who gets 5150’d, would that be acceptable to you? 5150 isn’t arbitrary, it isn’t political, it’s a medical professional stating you are a danger to yourself or others. Seems like something that makes sense, if it doesn’t, then frankly I think you are willing to put the public at risk in order not to budge an inch? I’m pretty sure that it is already the case that if you are deemed a danger, they would already come get your firearms, so let them deem that a red flag and now they can’t say we don’t care or unwilling to make common sense gun law.
Barkoff... A few questions who can issue a 5150? Will they be neutral in their opinion or do they have an axe to grind? Do you think there should be a 2nd opinion in this case? I Do! I think this can be set up and handled in such a way that abuse can be controlled or keep to an absolute minimum. The way it is now there are no safe guards or control so subject to much abuse, and absolutely goes against the constitution . As is it is now it guarantee it will have the worst possible outcome, but can be made fair to all, and I do admit that there are a few to whom this could and should apply to: but are few and far apart. Just my take on the situation. Cheers NC
Gentlemen, I am a law and order type of guy. I married into a cop family. Almost all of my in laws are cops, and I respect them. I, myself, went through the hiring process/testing for the CHP California highway patrol). I respect the law...... However, my guns are mostly hand me down guns, from family, most of them now dead. They are not just weapons, but part of my heritage, my history, and my legacy. As a free man, I will not be parted from my guns, without due process. My kids are grown, I'm an empty nester now, and i will not risk having my guns lost, destroyed, or confiscated, by anyone. To me, they are irreplaceable. If I were roused at 5am like the victim, I too would be armed, and expecting trouble, and there would surely be trouble, because I will not comply. It would not be not be my wisest move, it would not be the best move, and it might be my last move, but it would follow like the tide follows the moon. Do as you will, but this is something I can not accept. If pushed down this road, there will be trouble.
I'm not in favor of red flag laws because they are unconstitutional, but pulling your gun on two cops is just plain stupid. Maybe the old dude was crazy.....probably thought he was Matt Dillon or something.
Actually, they're probably not unconstitutional, but it will get litigated.
Gentlemen, I am a law and order type of guy. I married into a cop family. Almost all of my in laws are cops, and I respect them. I, myself, went through the hiring process/testing for the CHP California highway patrol). I respect the law...... However, my guns are mostly hand me down guns, from family, most of them now dead. They are not just weapons, but part of my heritage, my history, and my legacy. As a free man, I will not be parted from my guns, without due process. My kids are grown, I'm an empty nester now, and i will not risk having my guns lost, destroyed, or confiscated, by anyone. To me, they are irreplaceable. If I were roused at 5am like the victim, I too would be armed, and expecting trouble, and there would surely be trouble, because I will not comply. It would not be not be my wisest move, it would not be the best move, and it might be my last move, but it would follow like the tide follows the moon. Do as you will, but this is something I can not accept. If pushed down this road, there will be trouble.
I only regret that I have but one life to lose for my country. Nathan Hale
I'll go down fighting myself. The problem is that the media and the cop sucking fudd's will say, "See, he was crazy for confronting the cops" Then they make some more laws to restrict guns and more laws to protect the traitorous cops that willingly follow unconstitutional laws.
Guy's niece turned him in because she didnt think he need a gun. Admitted he was not a danger AFTER the fact. Dont forget the 5am part of the story
I looked back at the story. It seems Mr. Willis' sister made the complaint and later the niece made a statement to the news media that he was not dangerous. The wee hours of the morning while it is yet dark outside are probably the worst time to execute a non-emergency warrant at a residence. Just because someone says they are the police and are dressed like police does not always make them police.
You know I get the apprehension over the red flag laws, but what about red flags raised over anyone who gets 5150’d, would that be acceptable to you? 5150 isn’t arbitrary, it isn’t political, it’s a medical professional stating you are a danger to yourself or others. Seems like something that makes sense, if it doesn’t, then frankly I think you are willing to put the public at risk in order not to budge an inch? I’m pretty sure that it is already the case that if you are deemed a danger, they would already come get your firearms, so let them deem that a red flag and now they can’t say we don’t care or unwilling to make common sense gun law.
Not political?
Maybe not now, but whatever it is, if it is given the power to confiscate people's guns, it will become political. It has to. There's no alternative.
You're analyzing gun control proposals as if their purpose is to prevent people from being wounded and killed. But that's not their purpose; that's never been their purpose. You have to address them according to their real purpose, not their advertised smoke-screen purpose.
Originally, the purpose of gun-control laws was to keep guns out of the hands of black people, so that they couldn't defend themselves against pogroms from the Ku Klux Klan and other similar groups. Now it's to keep guns out of the hands of dissidents, so that they cannot substantively oppose the progressive agenda. The biggest obstacle between the socialists and where they want to be is the hundreds of millions of people in this country who believe that certain property belongs privately to them, rather than universally to the commune. The socialists have to get that property away from them. If they have guns, the progressives' job is much harder. Therefore...gun control.
Anybody who is seriously concerned about people's safety will understand immediately that you can't keep guns out of the hands of crazy people, no matter what you do. Laws don't work, doctors don't work, background checks don't work, even prisons don't always work. There are just too many available guns out there. If you're really concerned about people's safety, you'll work on the other end of the situation: not making sure the wrong people don't have guns, but making sure the right people do have guns and know how and when to use them.
I'm not in favor of red flag laws because they are unconstitutional, but pulling your gun on two cops is just plain stupid. Maybe the old dude was crazy.....probably thought he was Matt Dillon or something.
Actually, they're probably not unconstitutional, but it will get litigated.
You may want to Google "Shall Not Be Infringed"....
Gentlemen, I am a law and order type of guy. I married into a cop family. Almost all of my in laws are cops, and I respect them. I, myself, went through the hiring process/testing for the CHP California highway patrol). I respect the law...... However, my guns are mostly hand me down guns, from family, most of them now dead. They are not just weapons, but part of my heritage, my history, and my legacy. As a free man, I will not be parted from my guns, without due process. My kids are grown, I'm an empty nester now, and i will not risk having my guns lost, destroyed, or confiscated, by anyone. To me, they are irreplaceable. If I were roused at 5am like the victim, I too would be armed, and expecting trouble, and there would surely be trouble, because I will not comply. It would not be not be my wisest move, it would not be the best move, and it might be my last move, but it would follow like the tide follows the moon. Do as you will, but this is something I can not accept. If pushed down this road, there will be trouble.
I only regret that I have but one life to lose for my country. Nathan Hale
No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making some other poor dumb bastard die for his. George S. Patton
I'm not in favor of red flag laws because they are unconstitutional, but pulling your gun on two cops is just plain stupid. Maybe the old dude was crazy.....probably thought he was Matt Dillon or something.
Actually, they're probably not unconstitutional, but it will get litigated.
You may want to Google "Shall Not Be Infringed"....
*You* may want to google Mathews v. Eldridge, which is the basis for the constitutionality of Ex Parte Restraining Orders, and therefore, Red Flag laws, which follow the same procedure.
The Supreme Kangaroos haven't directly decided the constitutionality of Red Flag laws, but every lower court decision has upheld em.
Didn't the United States vs. Cruikshank decision of 1876 decide that the 2nd Amendment did not apply to individual states? If so, did the Heller or McDonald decision overturn the Cruikshank decision? It seems that part of the Cruikshank decision addressed whether or not the local government had the right to disarm the carpetbag and negro militia that was attempting to hold the Grant Parish courthouse against a competing claim by a local white militia. Dozens of blacks and three whites were killed in the affair. Maybe we have a constitutional historian on board.
I'm not in favor of red flag laws because they are unconstitutional, but pulling your gun on two cops is just plain stupid. Maybe the old dude was crazy.....probably thought he was Matt Dillon or something.
Actually, they're probably not unconstitutional, but it will get litigated.
You may want to Google "Shall Not Be Infringed"....
*You* may want to google Mathews v. Eldridge, which is the basis for the constitutionality of Ex Parte Restraining Orders, and therefore, Red Flag laws, which follow the same procedure.
The Supreme Kangaroos haven't directly decided the constitutionality of Red Flag laws, but every lower court decision has upheld em.
Because courts uphold something, doesn't make it Constitutional.
Many here are reading a lot into this without knowing much about it. Is it your suggestion that nobody in society should ever be disarmed? Then how would you know this guy should not be, given the lack of detail?
There's no evidence he had committed any crime at all. He had no chance to face his accuser. These laws are violations of at least the 2nd, 4th, and 5th Amendments.
You know I get the apprehension over the red flag laws, but what about red flags raised over anyone who gets 5150’d, would that be acceptable to you? 5150 isn’t arbitrary, it isn’t political, it’s a medical professional stating you are a danger to yourself or others. Seems like something that makes sense, if it doesn’t, then frankly I think you are willing to put the public at risk in order not to budge an inch? I’m pretty sure that it is already the case that if you are deemed a danger, they would already come get your firearms, so let them deem that a red flag and now they can’t say we don’t care or unwilling to make common sense gun law.
Did he get that? Or did he just get surprised a 5 AM?
The scenario you're talking about is already in place. There's no need for a "red flag".
They don't need to "arrest" the guns if they think an individual is "dangerous". They only need to arrest the person, and do it legally.
I'm not in favor of red flag laws because they are unconstitutional, but pulling your gun on two cops is just plain stupid. Maybe the old dude was crazy.....probably thought he was Matt Dillon or something.
He probably thought he was a minute man, and was wondering why he didn't hear the call to arms in the middle of the night. I mean, since we're speculating.
P.S. The minute men standing up to the world's largest standing army was just plain stupid, too.
I'm not in favor of red flag laws because they are unconstitutional, but pulling your gun on two cops is just plain stupid. Maybe the old dude was crazy.....probably thought he was Matt Dillon or something.
He probably thought he was a minute man, and was wondering why he didn't hear the call to arms in the middle of the night. I mean, since we're speculating.
P.S. The minute men standing up to the world's largest standing army was just plain stupid, too.
They won that war you know.
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
Quote
When officers began to serve him the order, Willis became irate and grabbed his gun.
He was an idiot. That'll get you shot even when they're giving you a ticket for a barking dog. They didn't shoot him for the red flag law. They shot him in self defense. The cops have the right to defend themselves.
They wouldn't have been there had there not been a "red flag" law.
Yes, the cops were there because of an illegal law but you don't pull a gun on cops no matter what. All you'll accomplish is getting yourself shot. There are ways to fight illegal laws but getting killed isn't a smart one. The guy was an idiot.
We don't know he "pulled a gun on cops" We know that's what the cops said about the dead guy. He can't refute the story.
The local news said the man put the gun on a table beside the front door. A scuffle broke out when the man realized why the cops were there. The gun was knocked to the floor and discharged. On hearing the gun go off, one of the cops started shooting.
That leaves out a step. He put the gun down, then when he heard what they wanted, he picked it up again. Then the scuffle started.
I won't argue that the law is wrong and the whole thing should have never happened. But, he was an idiot to pull a gun on 2 cops. As soon as he did that, it became self defense for the cops and they had the right to defend themselves.
Again, you're quoting the LEO's version of the story. The only other witness is the one they killed.
Gentlemen, I am a law and order type of guy. I married into a cop family. Almost all of my in laws are cops, and I respect them. I, myself, went through the hiring process/testing for the CHP California highway patrol). I respect the law...... However, my guns are mostly hand me down guns, from family, most of them now dead. They are not just weapons, but part of my heritage, my history, and my legacy. As a free man, I will not be parted from my guns, without due process. My kids are grown, I'm an empty nester now, and i will not risk having my guns lost, destroyed, or confiscated, by anyone. To me, they are irreplaceable. If I were roused at 5am like the victim, I too would be armed, and expecting trouble, and there would surely be trouble, because I will not comply. It would not be not be my wisest move, it would not be the best move, and it might be my last move, but it would follow like the tide follows the moon. Do as you will, but this is something I can not accept. If pushed down this road, there will be trouble.
I only regret that I have but one life to lose for my country. Nathan Hale
No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making some other poor dumb bastard die for his. George S. Patton
Close. No poor bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making other bastards die for their country." I'll see yours and raise you one: Better to fight for something than live for nothing."
I'm not in favor of red flag laws because they are unconstitutional, but pulling your gun on two cops is just plain stupid. Maybe the old dude was crazy.....probably thought he was Matt Dillon or something.
Actually, they're probably not unconstitutional, but it will get litigated.
You may want to Google "Shall Not Be Infringed"....
*You* may want to google Mathews v. Eldridge, which is the basis for the constitutionality of Ex Parte Restraining Orders, and therefore, Red Flag laws, which follow the same procedure.
The Supreme Kangaroos haven't directly decided the constitutionality of Red Flag laws, but every lower court decision has upheld em.
I think you're confused.
MATHEWS v. ELDRIDGE | FindLaw https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/424/319.html United States Supreme Court. MATHEWS v. ELDRIDGE(1976) No. 74-204 Argued: October 6, 1975 Decided: February 24, 1976. In order to establish initial and continued entitlement to disability benefits under the Social Security Act (Act), a worker must demonstrate that, inter alia, he is unable "to engage in any substantial gainful activity by reason of any medically determinable physical or mental ...
I'm not in favor of red flag laws because they are unconstitutional, but pulling your gun on two cops is just plain stupid. Maybe the old dude was crazy.....probably thought he was Matt Dillon or something.
Actually, they're probably not unconstitutional, but it will get litigated.
The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. - Second Amendment
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated. - Fourth Amendment
No person shall be deprived of property, without due process of law. - Fifth Amendment
You know I get the apprehension over the red flag laws, but what about red flags raised over anyone who gets 5150’d, would that be acceptable to you? 5150 isn’t arbitrary, it isn’t political, it’s a medical professional stating you are a danger to yourself or others. Seems like something that makes sense, if it doesn’t, then frankly I think you are willing to put the public at risk in order not to budge an inch? I’m pretty sure that it is already the case that if you are deemed a danger, they would already come get your firearms, so let them deem that a red flag and now they can’t say we don’t care or unwilling to make common sense gun law.
Not political?
Maybe not now, but whatever it is, if it is given the power to confiscate people's guns, it will become political. It has to. There's no alternative.
You're analyzing gun control proposals as if their purpose is to prevent people from being wounded and killed. But that's not their purpose; that's never been their purpose. You have to address them according to their real purpose, not their advertised smoke-screen purpose.
Originally, the purpose of gun-control laws was to keep guns out of the hands of black people, so that they couldn't defend themselves against pogroms from the Ku Klux Klan and other similar groups. Now it's to keep guns out of the hands of dissidents, so that they cannot substantively oppose the progressive agenda. The biggest obstacle between the socialists and where they want to be is the hundreds of millions of people in this country who believe that certain property belongs privately to them, rather than universally to the commune. The socialists have to get that property away from them. If they have guns, the progressives' job is much harder. Therefore...gun control.
Anybody who is seriously concerned about people's safety will understand immediately that you can't keep guns out of the hands of crazy people, no matter what you do. Laws don't work, doctors don't work, background checks don't work, even prisons don't always work. There are just too many available guns out there. If you're really concerned about people's safety, you'll work on the other end of the situation: not making sure the wrong people don't have guns, but making sure the right people do have guns and know how and when to use them.
This really pisses me off! So under these red flag laws, my crazy druggie cousin can call the police and tell them I’m a threat to society because he’s mad at me because I wouldn’t loan him $50 to go get high so at 5am the next morning the police are knocking at my door to confiscate my firearms??? This is fuggin obsurd! Not only is it absurd it’s a violation of your rights! Besides, you would think police in Maryland would have better things to do in that slum infested hell hole!
Mathews was the camel's nose in the tent of liberty.
It decided that a person's money benefits could be taken before a full court hearing, as long as there was a process in place that guaranteed a court hearing at a date in the future.
That ruling was perverted into the "process" for ex parte protection orders, which haven't been overturned by the Supremes or anybody else.
IDK how long it's been, but at least 20 years since the EP crap began, and the Supremes haven't taken a case about it.
State courts have upheld it.
And the ex parte procedure was adopted by the Red Flag crowd, doin a different thing, in the same way.
I'm not in favor of red flag laws because they are unconstitutional, but pulling your gun on two cops is just plain stupid. Maybe the old dude was crazy.....probably thought he was Matt Dillon or something.
Actually, they're probably not unconstitutional, but it will get litigated.
The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. - Second Amendment
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated. - Fourth Amendment
No person shall be deprived of property, without due process of law. - Fifth Amendment
I'm not in favor of red flag laws because they are unconstitutional, but pulling your gun on two cops is just plain stupid. Maybe the old dude was crazy.....probably thought he was Matt Dillon or something.
He probably thought he was a minute man, and was wondering why he didn't hear the call to arms in the middle of the night. I mean, since we're speculating.
P.S. The minute men standing up to the world's largest standing army was just plain stupid, too.
They won that war you know.
I do know. That doesn't change the fact that it was stupid. But, at times, people have to do stupid stuff to avoid becoming oppressed. Freedom doesn't belong to cowards, no matter how smart they are.
Looks like McConnell is leading the charge to neuter the 1st, 2nd, 4th, and the 5th Amendments for gun owning Americans. He's pushing for Trump's desired new Red Flag laws at the Federal level.
Trump has betrayed his oath. His principled loyalty and understanding of the Constitution is almost nonexistent. You are 100 percent right... 1,2,4,5 All down the drain
Has Wayne LaPierre weighed in on this? Is NRA going whole hog against this usurpation of constitutional rights? I prefer we let it pass if it can be passed and try for a court decision hopefully nullifying it. We are spinning our wheels dealing with congress.
Red flag laws are unconstitutional for several reasons. You are assumed quilty when someone makes the accusation and then must prove your innocence. Even if you are completely cooperative and hand over all your firearms there is no guarantee you will get them back once the issue is resolved in your favor. LE will go through your guns and take what they want. The rest will be destroyed or lost and when you go to pick them up, they won't return them, you will be told sorry Charlie.
People get emotional about their firearms, not because of the firearm itself, but because of the memories associated with them. Hunts with your grandfather or you dad. Days spent in the field and conversations with good friends. As we get older we enjoy looking at our guns and remembering days gone by. For some those days are over and no more memories will be made.
The same is not true of hammers and drills.
Beyond that, they represent your status as a free citizen of a free nation. Disarming a free man is to make him a slave, and our instinct as Americans is to resist enslavement, even to the point of death.
You know I get the apprehension over the red flag laws, but what about red flags raised over anyone who gets 5150’d, would that be acceptable to you? 5150 isn’t arbitrary, it isn’t political, it’s a medical professional stating you are a danger to yourself or others. Seems like something that makes sense, if it doesn’t, then frankly I think you are willing to put the public at risk in order not to budge an inch? I’m pretty sure that it is already the case that if you are deemed a danger, they would already come get your firearms, so let them deem that a red flag and now they can’t say we don’t care or unwilling to make common sense gun law.
What, like the "medical professional" that recently categorically stated in front of witness' that I had throat cancer...about two days before the specialist said the indian ćunt didn't know what he was talking about.
There is tremendous potential for these red flag laws to be abused. This is probably how they will turn out more often than not.
Sometimes it will go the other way. When they start violating the second amendment, they lose some support from the only folks left that still supported them.
If a man is deemed a threat to society and they remove his firearms just what have they accomplished?
If only his firearms are removed is he not still a threat?
These recent shooters were all described as angry. Will a potential threat not be more enraged after his property is taken away?
The gun is a tool. The gun is not the threat in this instance, so what is accomplished by only removing the tool? Wont the "threat" simply choose a different tool and perhaps be even more motivated to use it?
Once again the real motivation in all of this is gun control and their elimination. Public safety is NOT the true goal.
I'm not in favor of red flag laws because they are unconstitutional, but pulling your gun on two cops is just plain stupid. Maybe the old dude was crazy.....probably thought he was Matt Dillon or something.
Well where is the NRA why are they not challenging it in court or is Wayne out buying some more new suits to look good?? They only way to stop them (red flag laws) is for the court to declare them unconstitutional and thus shut them down. Just my take. Cheers NC
Well where is the NRA why are they not challenging it in court or is Wayne out buying some more new suits to look good?? They only way to stop them (red flag laws) is for the court to declare them unconstitutional and thus shut them down. Just my take. Cheers NC
Well where is the NRA why are they not challenging it in court or is Wayne out buying some more new suits to look good?? They only way to stop them (red flag laws) is for the court to declare them unconstitutional and thus shut them down. Just my take. Cheers NC
Well where is the NRA why are they not challenging it in court or is Wayne out buying some more new suits to look good?? They only way to stop them (red flag laws) is for the court to declare them unconstitutional and thus shut them down. Just my take. Cheers NC
The NRA supports them.
I keep tellin’ ‘em: the NRA is not now and has never been an opponent of gun control. The NRA is a proponent of moderate gun control. If you want an organization that really opposes gun control, you need to look at groups like the Second Amendment Foundation or Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership.
