That totally sucks for the UPS driver. Poor bastard just trying to earn a living has to endure the carjacking and then get killed while thinking he was free. prayers for the innocent victims. rot in hell for the perps.
One of the helicopter news guys said it was the driver coming out the door when the guy doing the face plant with his arms outstretched reaching for the street appeared. The next guy with the white socks was right on top of him, then the cops started blazing...
news tid-bits
"The truck driver left the steering wheel shortly before gunshots were fired"
"When asked whether the UPS driver or bystander was hit by police fire, the FBI's Piro said that is part of the investigation."
Gotdamn trashbag felons cost the state/county even when they're killed, somebodies going to have to cut a couple BIG checks, RIP to the dead innocent and their families, and this close to Christmas too, God Bless.
Yeah broward county better get to writing couple checks for the ol coppers shooting the chit out everything. I swear cops were running to that truck to pop some rounds off.. how about the cops standing behind there buds guns draw and ready to shoot. Grab your pistols boys we got some shooting to do.. wasn’t it the broward county cops who hid while ol boy shot up that school?
In total disagreement if the cops started unloading on the UPS truck knowing the driver was in the truck . I'd much rather they let the jerrells go instead of taking the likely chance that the driver might well be killed .
This is what you get when you dont carry a gun and/or aint good with it. Your life, honor and freedom are YOUR responsibility. You should be a black belt and an ace with rifle and pistol by the time you're working any place. and certainly by the time you're 21. Default on your responsibilities and you will often have to pay the price. I started packing when I was 16. I'd been practicing concealed fast draw since i was 12.
This is what you get when you dont carry a gun and/or aint good with it. Your life, honor and freedom are YOUR responsibility. You should be a black belt and an ace with rifle and pistol by the time you're working any place. and certainly by the time you're 21. Default on your responsibilities and you will often have to pay the price. I started packing when I was 16. I'd been practicing concealed fast draw since i was 12.
I think that’s just called masturbation when your 12. 😜
If you recall, the Coral Gables cops are the ones that showed up at the school shooting and ran right past the Broward Sheriff guys waiting outside. They were last on scene but first in the doors of the school.
In total disagreement if the cops started unloading on the UPS truck knowing the driver was in the truck . I'd much rather they let the jerrells go instead of taking the likely chance that the driver might well be killed .
Not just the driver but all those folks in all those cars that found themselves in the middle of a shootout. Has to be azz puckering to be stuck in your car, caught like a sitting duck.
If you recall, the Coral Gables cops are the ones that showed up at the school shooting and ran right past the Broward Sheriff guys waiting outside. They were last on scene but first in the doors of the school.
Not today half the police department ran towards that ups truck guns a-blazing
One of the helicopter news guys said it was the driver coming out the door when the guy doing the face plant with his arms outstretched reaching for the street appeared. The next guy with the white socks was right on top of him, then the cops started blazing...
news tid-bits
"The truck driver left the steering wheel shortly before gunshots were fired"
"When asked whether the UPS driver or bystander was hit by police fire, the FBI's Piro said that is part of the investigation."
In total disagreement if the cops started unloading on the UPS truck knowing the driver was in the truck . I'd much rather they let the jerrells go instead of taking the likely chance that the driver might well be killed .
Not just the driver but all those folks in all those cars that found themselves in the middle of a shootout. Has to be azz puckering to be stuck in your car, caught like a sitting duck.
Agree - probably 3/4 of them were looking at their phones and had no idea anything was going on . I look around when sitting in turn lanes/at a light and everybody is gazing at their phone .
Stupid fuggin cops. I would've been so fuggin pissed if I was in one of the cars near that fiasco. Ass holes shoulda chased those fuggers outta town or at least off the freeway before thay pulled that shyt. What if your son or daughter had been in one of the cars adjacent to that shyt storm and took a stray bullet. Would you think those ass holes were big heroes then ? I'd spend the rest of my life purposefully hunting cops like varmints if it had been my son or daughter killed by their overzelous, ass clownery.
The Patriot Act, which provided the funding to militarize the police forces, has been successful.
The police forces have become militarized, and get jacked up to be involved in these types of opportunities so they can GOSSIP about the incident for days among themselves, and the citizens have simply become the enemy to them in their own country, bayonet bags / shooting targets for them.
The numerous thugs rushing that hostage situation, and murdering the UPS employee, proves it, instead of surrounding, securing and starting negotiations through P.A. speaker from a unit.
Just shook my head when I saw cops hiding behind cars with people in them. Ol broward county better write some big checks. So in war a LT accused of killing non combatants get sentenced to 19yrs in prison.. Broward county kills 2 innocent people and it going to be chalked up wrong place wrong time..
If you recall, the Coral Gables cops are the ones that showed up at the school shooting and ran right past the Broward Sheriff guys waiting outside. They were last on scene but first in the doors of the school.
No. They were not. They're not even in the same county. Coral Springs is what you were thinking of.
Just shook my head when I saw cops hiding behind cars with people in them. Ol broward county better write some big checks. So in war a LT accused of killing non combatants get sentenced to 19yrs in prison.. Broward county kills 2 innocent people and it going to be chalked up wrong place wrong time..
And while we're on the subject, ANY sheriff or chief that didn't serve, GET THOSE GD STARS OFF YOUR COLLAR AND HASHES OFF YOUR SLEEVES, quit dressing like GD carnival clown, and show some respect for the MEN that earned those Stars and Hashes!
Yeah broward county better get to writing couple checks for the ol coppers shooting the chit out everything. I swear cops were running to that truck to pop some rounds off.. how about the cops standing behind there buds guns draw and ready to shoot. Grab your pistols boys we got some shooting to do.. wasn’t it the broward county cops who hid while ol boy shot up that school?
Coral Gables is not in Broward County. It's in Miami-Dade County and actually one of the better areas in Miami-Dade.
May God bless the innocent lives lost......some mother and father, some brothers or sisters or best friends or spouse or children just got to watch their innocent loved one killed......merry f’cking christmas.
May God bless the innocent lives lost......some mother and father, some brothers or sisters or best friends or spouse or children just got to watch their innocent loved one killed......merry f’cking christmas.
The Patriot Act, which provided the funding to militarize the police forces, has been successful.
The police forces have become militarized, and get jacked up to be involved in these types of opportunities so they can GOSSIP about the incident for days among themselves, and the citizens have simply become the enemy to them in their own country, bayonet bags / shooting targets for them.
The numerous thugs rushing that hostage situation, and murdering the UPS employee, proves it, instead of surrounding, securing and starting negotiations through P.A. speaker from a unit.
May God bless the innocent lives lost......some mother and father, some brothers or sisters or best friends or spouse or children just got to watch their innocent loved one killed......merry f’cking christmas.
Amen.
No shlt men, hell of a time of year to have to deal with that crap, no Christmas dinner at Grannies, we gotta plan a funeral!
Yeah broward county better get to writing couple checks for the ol coppers shooting the chit out everything. I swear cops were running to that truck to pop some rounds off.. how about the cops standing behind there buds guns draw and ready to shoot. Grab your pistols boys we got some shooting to do.. wasn’t it the broward county cops who hid while ol boy shot up that school?
Coral Gables is not in Broward County. It's in Miami-Dade County and actually one of the better areas in Miami-Dade.
You might want to do some google-fu. The shooting ended in broward county... yes started in Miami-Dade county
A total of 19 officers, from five different agencies, fired into the carjacked UPS truck, a senior law enforcement source told CBS4 News
The number of shots fired by the officers is not currently known, but CBS4’s Jim DeFede’s source said it could exceed 200 rounds.
In addition to the UPS driver, who was on his knees, the innocent bystander was shot while sitting in a car waiting at the stop light in the intersection.
-------------
Girl at the jewelry was shot in the head during the robbery but she is OK. 2 more reported injured by gunfire that were at the shootout scene sitting in cars.
There’s no question as to the value those departments place on the lives of those they’re paid to protect. Whether through inaction and cowardice or homicidal over-reaction and callous ineptitude they place little value on the lives of those they’re supposed to serve.
I watched a series about CCTV and crime in the UK. I was struck by a couple things.....the amount of automated and manned cameras plus sophisticated facial recognition software combined is astonishing. They are under constant surveillance and we’re not far behind.
The other thing that struck me was how little violence they used or needed when confronted by an armed man with a knife or machete. There seemed to be far less violence and the cops didn’t take everything personal. They used a lot less violence to secure an arrest and were met with less violence.
The big difference between the UK and here is we use CCTV as a after the fact crime investigation tool, they use it as a real time crime prevention tool.
There’s no question as to the value those departments place on the lives of those they’re paid to protect. Whether through inaction and cowardice or homicidal over-reaction and callous ineptitude they place little value on the lives of those they’re supposed to serve.
I watched a series about CCTV and crime in the UK. I was struck by a couple things.....the amount of automated and manned cameras plus sophisticated facial recognition software combined is astonishing. They are under constant surveillance and we’re not far behind.
The other thing that struck me was how little violence they used or needed when confronted by an armed man with a knife or machete. There seemed to be far less violence and the cops didn’t take everything personal. They used a lot less violence to secure an arrest and were met with less violence.
They do the same thing in korea everything is on video camera. Speeding tickets come in the mail.
Spoke with a friend of mine (LEO), who was part of this mess. There were many officers from multiple jurisdictions, across two large counties (Miami-Dade where the armed robbery and shootout began, and Broward where the chase ended in gunfire). The chase went on for an extended time, with the perps shooting at both officers and civvies along the way. His estimation is that there were over 75 cars from many jurisdictions involved, all trying to communicate with each other and with dispatchers. Some officers were up to date with info, others were not.
When the UPS truck got stopped in traffic, both perps began firing indiscriminately, with one apparently using the hostage UPS driver as cover. From my friend’s view, it appeared that one of the perps shot the hostage UPS driver after he attempted to use him as a shield to exit the passenger side of the truck, while firing at police. It was at that point that everyone opened up on the perps as the hostage had been hit and was trying to crawl out of the truck. The perp, who was also hit, collapsed on top of the hostage and both appeared to be hit a number of times after that, which can be seen in the videos as well.
My friend did not fire his weapon, and said it was absolute chaos. He also said that he was certain if these guys were not stopped, they would have certainly shot more people, or taken another hostage if they attempted to carjack another vehicle (they had previously carjacked a uhaul truck, and then the UPS truck).
I feel terrible for the UPS driver and motorist who lost their lives(along with their families), and for the officers who fired and who are aware that they may have hit those two civvies. Not sad that the dirtbag jewelry store robbers are dead as we have too many of those types down here already. Either way, it’s going to be a long road for everyone here.
the UPS driver had many opportunties to make a CCW draw and kill them both. When you default on your responsibilities to yourself and society, it can cost you dearly.
... But at the he time you had at least two perps opening up in a crowded public setting.
what was ratio of perp. rounds to LE rounds in that public setting, while LE were using involuntary road going civilians as human shields when drawing fire from desperado perps.
Terrorists and felons using human shields are considered by most here as out and out low life cowards.
but we have types on the CF [that have previously expressed] that collateral damage by LE gunfire is quite acceptable when a perp starts shooting at a cop.
course if you as a good citizen were to defend yourself by unleashing a couple Glock mags and happen to unitendededly kill a cop or two in crossfire, the LE fraternity would not be impressed.
* Only shot allowed is from scoped rifle with clear kill shot on perp.
It’s really simple…unless you want to be the cop who texts / emails about his involvement for a week / month with everyone he knows, and calls all of his family, friends, and neighbors to watch the 6:00 / 10:00 PM news to “see” him on it, and ask them, “Did you see me?”. “Did you see me shoot?”. Been there…got the phone calls and heard it before…
Not ONE cop ran up along the side of the UPS van, where the perps couldn’t see his approach, to attempt a surprise “step into the door opening shot” to take the guy out to protect all surrounding civilians and save the hostage…not ONE.
But you can bet your azz, they’re all texting about their badazzness to each other right this very minute:
“I dumped it all”
“I got a half dump, and jammed”…[even though he didn’t jam…that’s just to stand out.]
“Who got the kill on him?”
“Going to the bar. Meet us there”…[nothing better than getting drunk while bragging and laughing about the fire fight…right?]
It was involuntary manslaughter of that UPS driver. He was in the window the whole time.
I thought the Patriot Act “paid” for this super duper communication system for all first responders, across multiple counties, to be connected and able to coordinate in any large emergency type situation, so you only have one chief, instead of multiple chiefs. No?
And I guess no hostage training has been taught [academy] or practiced [even once a year], so a real live scene is as “safe” as possible for a hostage and possible trapped citizens.
This is not Monday morning quarterbacking or hindsight…it’s simple common sense that citizens deserve. Their property taxes should not finance an Armed Military, who can’t wait to go hot on the streets, with zero training.
Yeah broward county better get to writing couple checks for the ol coppers shooting the chit out everything. I swear cops were running to that truck to pop some rounds off.. how about the cops standing behind there buds guns draw and ready to shoot. Grab your pistols boys we got some shooting to do.. wasn’t it the broward county cops who hid while ol boy shot up that school?
Coral Gables is not in Broward County. It's in Miami-Dade County and actually one of the better areas in Miami-Dade.
You might want to do some google-fu. The shooting ended in broward county... yes started in Miami-Dade county
I don't need to Google s***. I'm just passing on some city-data..
Holy schit... Civilians in cars everywhere. Hostage situation. What happened to any concept of some sort of precision fire and round accountability. Kinda shoulda maybe stacked up some scoped long guns to the front of that police convoy if possible.....
"Hey boys this is your chance to get some rounds off at something besides paper for the 1st or only time in your career type of thing" "Get some"!!!
The local govts. will just raise taxes on the down low to cover the eventual lawsuits from this fiasco.
This is what you get when you dont carry a gun and/or aint good with it. Your life, honor and freedom are YOUR responsibility. You should be a black belt and an ace with rifle and pistol by the time you're working any place. and certainly by the time you're 21. Default on your responsibilities and you will often have to pay the price. I started packing when I was 16. I'd been practicing concealed fast draw since i was 12.
Holy schit... Civilians in cars everywhere. Hostage situation. What happened to any concept of some sort of precision fire and round accountability. Kinda shoulda maybe stacked up some scoped long guns to the front of that police convoy if possible.....
"Hey boys this is your chance to get some rounds off at something besides paper for the 1st time in your career type of thing" "Get some"!!!
The local govts. will just raise taxes on the down low to cover the eventual lawsuits from this fiasco.
Looked to me like they blocked the intersection so they could use a traffic backup to stop the perps.
the UPS driver had many opportunties to make a CCW draw and kill them both. When you default on your responsibilities to yourself and society, it can cost you dearly.
I understand your point but I think also not everyone is cut out to carry for many reason. Many of us do but many folks can't and don't want to deal with that responsibility
We are all wired a bit different
Very sad for the victims and familys I hope there is an honest and sincere study of all that went wrong here Hank
I can hear and see the shotgun as well as the hand guns being fired but it sounds as if a semiautomatic rifle is also heard, if so, it just don't seem like the best choice considering available backstops in this setting.
... But at the he time you had at least two perps opening up in a crowded public setting.
what was ratio of perp. rounds to LE rounds in that public setting, while LE were using involuntary road going civilians as human shields when drawing fire from desperado perps.
Terrorists and felons using human shields are considered by most here as out and out low life cowards.
but we have types on the CF [that have previously expressed] that collateral damage by LE gunfire is quite acceptable when a perp starts shooting at a cop.
course if you as a good citizen were to defend yourself by unleashing a couple Glock mags and happen to unitendededly kill a cop or two in crossfire, the LE fraternity would not be impressed.
You really haven't thought this through have you? The truck came to a stop in heavy traffic. The robbers started shooting indiscriminately. Drivers were stuck with nowhere to go. At this point what would you like for the cops to do? Go home? Not make use of available cover? Do their best to stay in open lanes for the shooters?
The cops were NOT using human shields. They were using the vehicles as cover.
If you aren't really goddam dumb, you sure did a good job of feigning it.
the UPS driver had many opportunties to make a CCW draw and kill them both. When you default on your responsibilities to yourself and society, it can cost you dearly.
Spoke with a friend of mine (LEO), who was part of this mess. There were many officers from multiple jurisdictions, across two large counties (Miami-Dade where the armed robbery and shootout began, and Broward where the chase ended in gunfire). The chase went on for an extended time, with the perps shooting at both officers and civvies along the way. His estimation is that there were over 75 cars from many jurisdictions involved, all trying to communicate with each other and with dispatchers. Some officers were up to date with info, others were not.
When the UPS truck got stopped in traffic, both perps began firing indiscriminately, with one apparently using the hostage UPS driver as cover. From my friend’s view, it appeared that one of the perps shot the hostage UPS driver after he attempted to use him as a shield to exit the passenger side of the truck, while firing at police. It was at that point that everyone opened up on the perps as the hostage had been hit and was trying to crawl out of the truck. The perp, who was also hit, collapsed on top of the hostage and both appeared to be hit a number of times after that, which can be seen in the videos as well.
My friend did not fire his weapon, and said it was absolute chaos. He also said that he was certain if these guys were not stopped, they would have certainly shot more people, or taken another hostage if they attempted to carjack another vehicle (they had previously carjacked a uhaul truck, and then the UPS truck).
I feel terrible for the UPS driver and motorist who lost their lives(along with their families), and for the officers who fired and who are aware that they may have hit those two civvies. Not sad that the dirtbag jewelry store robbers are dead as we have too many of those types down here already. Either way, it’s going to be a long road for everyone here.
Holy schit... Civilians in cars everywhere. Hostage situation. What happened to any concept of some sort of precision fire and round accountability. Kinda shoulda maybe stacked up some scoped long guns to the front of that police convoy if possible.....
"Hey boys this is your chance to get some rounds off at something besides paper for the 1st or only time in your career type of thing" "Get some"!!!
The local govts. will just raise taxes on the down low to cover the eventual lawsuits from this fiasco.
Did you read where an officer on scene said the robbers began firing indiscriminately? If the officers had retreated and innocents were killed, you'd be pounding your chest calling the cops pussies.
They weren't firing indiscriminately, they were firing at the army of cops running at them with guns drawn. That's why this could have been avoided. Pick a better spot for your next ambush...
It's still not known who fired first, the cops or the robbers....
Because their training sucks. Containment,MINIMIZE civilian casualties and especially the hostage. Most if not all carry rifles and could have been FAR more selective.
They weren't firing indiscriminately, they were firing at the army of cops running at them with guns drawn. That's why this could have been avoided. Pick a better spot for your next ambush...
It's still not known who fired first, the cops or the robbers....
According to our member who had a friend on scene, as soon as the UPS truck came to a stop, the robbers started shooting indiscriminately. If that is indeed the case, should the cops have just stayed in their vehicles?
According to our member who had a friend on scene, as soon as the UPS truck came to a stop, the robbers started shooting indiscriminately. If that is indeed the case, should the cops have just stayed in their vehicles?
If that was what the robbers were doing there would have been dead bodies strewn all along the 25 miles they covered while being chased..
Sounds really unlikely....
The cops pinned them in a corner and they attempted to shoot their way out.
There is a time to back off when obvious consequences just aren't worth it.
the UPS driver had many opportunties to make a CCW draw and kill them both. When you default on your responsibilities to yourself and society, it can cost you dearly.
the UPS driver had many opportunties to make a CCW draw and kill them both. When you default on your responsibilities to yourself and society, it can cost you dearly.
Does UPS allow its drivers to carry?
NO.
Neither does FedEx.
I'm guessing the USPS guys are also sitting ducks.
How about disciplined and accurate return fire. Did you see the video? there are bullets flying everywhere and ESPECIALLY if the poor guy got killed by police fire.
According to our member who had a friend on scene, as soon as the UPS truck came to a stop, the robbers started shooting indiscriminately. If that is indeed the case, should the cops have just stayed in their vehicles?
If that was what the robbers were doing there would have been dead bodies strewn all along the 25 miles they covered while being chased..
Sounds really unlikely....
The cops pinned them in a corner and they attempted to shoot their way out.
There is a time to back off when obvious consequences just aren't worth it.
Let's say they back off the UPS truck once it starts heading into heavy traffic. The perps decide they need better wheels than the UPS truck. They kill the driver then kill a family in an SUV and take it over. Now we still have 2 armed thugs, willing to kill on the run.
Nobody would criticize the cops at this point right? Nobody would be calling them donut eating pussies afraid to do their jobs right? Nobody would pin the deaths of the innocents on the cops right?
According to our member who had a friend on scene, as soon as the UPS truck came to a stop, the robbers started shooting indiscriminately. If that is indeed the case, should the cops have just stayed in their vehicles?
If that was what the robbers were doing there would have been dead bodies strewn all along the 25 miles they covered while being chased..
Sounds really unlikely....
The cops pinned them in a corner and they attempted to shoot their way out.
There is a time to back off when obvious consequences just aren't worth it.
Let's say they back off the UPS truck once it starts heading into heavy traffic. The perps decide they need better wheels than the UPS truck. They kill the driver then kill a family in an SUV and take it over. Now we still have 2 armed thugs, willing to kill on the run.
Nobody would criticize the cops at this point right? Nobody would be calling them donut eating pussies afraid to do their jobs right? Nobody would pin the deaths of the innocents on the cops right?
you can play alot of hypothetical situations, the UPS family and the family of the driver that was shot, aren't interested in hearing them.
If they are so quick to kill, why didn't they just shoot the UPS driver in the head when they took his truck? It was a hostage situation that turned deadly when the criminals were backed into a corner.
A friend of mine works for one of the delivery companies. In the last 3 months 3 of his fellow drivers had their trucks hijacked, they just threw them the keys. My friend, has been robbed at gunpoint twice in "bad neighborhoods" for the boxes in his hands. Here ya go...
We don't have a cop problem, they clean up the messes 99% of the time. I have no expert opinion on how that mess should have been handled, my prayers go out to all the families impacted by that mess.
What we really have is a CRIME PROBLEM in this country and it starts with our government and all the politically correct garbage that is constricting us all, and rolls down hill from there!
How about disciplined and accurate return fire. Did you see the video? there are bullets flying everywhere and ESPECIALLY if the poor guy got killed by police fire.
From their vehicles right? Because we have people criticizing the cops for using civilian cars for cover as they moved in for a better shot.
I'll float this out there too. I know everyone on this forum is steely cool under fire and can shoot dime size groups at 50 yards with a Glock 42. The reality is that most humans don't do that well under stress.
According to our member who had a friend on scene, as soon as the UPS truck came to a stop, the robbers started shooting indiscriminately. If that is indeed the case, should the cops have just stayed in their vehicles?
If that was what the robbers were doing there would have been dead bodies strewn all along the 25 miles they covered while being chased..
Sounds really unlikely....
The cops pinned them in a corner and they attempted to shoot their way out.
There is a time to back off when obvious consequences just aren't worth it.
Let's say they back off the UPS truck once it starts heading into heavy traffic. The perps decide they need better wheels than the UPS truck. They kill the driver then kill a family in an SUV and take it over. Now we still have 2 armed thugs, willing to kill on the run.
Nobody would criticize the cops at this point right? Nobody would be calling them donut eating pussies afraid to do their jobs right? Nobody would pin the deaths of the innocents on the cops right?
you can play alot of hypothetical situations, the UPS family and the family of the driver that was shot, aren't interested in hearing them.
If they are so quick to kill, why didn't they just shoot the UPS driver in the head when they took his truck? It was a hostage situation that turned deadly when the criminals were backed into a corner.
For the love of ffugk, did you really just ask why a living hostage has more value to a bad guy than a dead person does?
Are you advocating that officers not consider the "what ifs" in making a decision on whether or not to engage?
A friend of mine works for one of the delivery companies. In the last 3 months 3 of his fellow drivers had their trucks hijacked, they just threw them the keys. My friend, has been robbed at gunpoint twice in "bad neighborhoods" for the boxes in his hands. Here ya go...
We don't have a cop problem, they clean up the messes 99% of the time. I have no expert opinion on how that mess should have been handled, my prayers go out to all the families impacted by that mess.
What we really have is a CRIME PROBLEM in this country and it starts with our government and all the politically correct garbage that is constricting us all, and rolls down hill from there!
You bring up a good point. I'd bet anyone $100 that when we learn of the criminal histories of these perps we will learn that if sentenced to the fullest, they would still be in jail for previous crimes.
According to our member who had a friend on scene, as soon as the UPS truck came to a stop, the robbers started shooting indiscriminately. If that is indeed the case, should the cops have just stayed in their vehicles?
If that was what the robbers were doing there would have been dead bodies strewn all along the 25 miles they covered while being chased..
Sounds really unlikely....
The cops pinned them in a corner and they attempted to shoot their way out.
There is a time to back off when obvious consequences just aren't worth it.
Let's say they back off the UPS truck once it starts heading into heavy traffic. The perps decide they need better wheels than the UPS truck. They kill the driver then kill a family in an SUV and take it over. Now we still have 2 armed thugs, willing to kill on the run.
Nobody would criticize the cops at this point right? Nobody would be calling them donut eating pussies afraid to do their jobs right? Nobody would pin the deaths of the innocents on the cops right?
You can't divert this with a string of "what if's"
What happened is obvious.
They shouldn't have been pushed into a corner where they had no way out especially since the cops knew they were willing to shoot there way through a hard spot.
Too many cops from surrounding agency's involved and the situation went outta control, probably couldn't have been stopped once it was started even if they wanted to.
I suppose to moral of the story could be, don't let your situations spiral out of control.
That's pretty much the basic #1 rule in any sort of disaster response training. This is where they failed.
you're the one pushing the "shooting indiscriminately" agenda.The cops show up the first thing they do is shoot their hostage and start spraying people who pose no threat to them?
stay consistent
and yes I am absolutely advocating that officers consider the "what ifs" in making a decision to engage or not to engage...wtf do you think we are talking about here?
engaging in a gunfight surrounded by innocent bystanders sitting in their cars in a crossfire situation
There's certainly a discussion to be had there. And I know without a doubt in the extensive reviews this undergoes that will be discussed.
You have the value of hindsight. With that, what would you do if you were calling the shots? Start from the point that you knew armed robbers had taken a UPS driver hostage and were fleeing in his truck. As you discuss what you would do, discuss the potential negative consequences of your actions and inactions.
I wonder if there was a bomb in that truck instead of firearms, would the police be so willing to chase it into a rush hour traffic and engage the people with a hostage?
There's certainly a discussion to be had there. And I know without a doubt in the extensive reviews this undergoes that will be discussed.
You have the value of hindsight. With that, what would you do if you were calling the shots? Start from the point that you knew armed robbers had taken a UPS driver hostage and were fleeing in his truck. As you discuss what you would do, discuss the potential negative consequences of your actions and inactions.
I wouldn't be calling the shots. For $60K a year, 2 divorces, learning to be a functional alcoholic and a bad pension isn't worth having a job where there is no margin of error in dealing with the worst of society
but they signed up for that, and their job is to protect and serve the public. One could argue the only thing they protected yesterday was jewelry or whatever those guys stole.
According to our member who had a friend on scene, as soon as the UPS truck came to a stop, the robbers started shooting indiscriminately. If that is indeed the case, should the cops have just stayed in their vehicles?
If that was what the robbers were doing there would have been dead bodies strewn all along the 25 miles they covered while being chased..
Sounds really unlikely....
The cops pinned them in a corner and they attempted to shoot their way out.
There is a time to back off when obvious consequences just aren't worth it.
Let's say they back off the UPS truck once it starts heading into heavy traffic. The perps decide they need better wheels than the UPS truck. They kill the driver then kill a family in an SUV and take it over. Now we still have 2 armed thugs, willing to kill on the run.
Nobody would criticize the cops at this point right? Nobody would be calling them donut eating pussies afraid to do their jobs right? Nobody would pin the deaths of the innocents on the cops right?
You can't divert this with a string of "what if's"
Really? You don't think cops should consider the consequences of any actions or inactions prior to making decisons? That strikes me as odd.
Back yourself out to the beginning and tell me how you would manage this in a way that guaranteed no innocent lives were lost.
There's certainly a discussion to be had there. And I know without a doubt in the extensive reviews this undergoes that will be discussed.
You have the value of hindsight. With that, what would you do if you were calling the shots? Start from the point that you knew armed robbers had taken a UPS driver hostage and were fleeing in his truck. As you discuss what you would do, discuss the potential negative consequences of your actions and inactions.
I wouldn't be calling the shots. For $60K a year, 2 divorces, learning to be a functional alcoholic and a bad pension isn't worth having a job where there is no margin of error in dealing with the worst of society
but they signed up for that, and their job is to protect and serve the public. One could argue the only thing they protected yesterday was jewelry or whatever those guys stole.
Just what I thought. You don't have the stones for the work, don't know what you would do if you were in a similar set of circumstances and offer nothing but criticism. Are you related to Colin Kaepernick, because you sound just like him.
There's certainly a discussion to be had there. And I know without a doubt in the extensive reviews this undergoes that will be discussed.
You have the value of hindsight. With that, what would you do if you were calling the shots? Start from the point that you knew armed robbers had taken a UPS driver hostage and were fleeing in his truck. As you discuss what you would do, discuss the potential negative consequences of your actions and inactions.
I wouldn't be calling the shots. For $60K a year, 2 divorces, learning to be a functional alcoholic and a bad pension isn't worth having a job where there is no margin of error in dealing with the worst of society
but they signed up for that, and their job is to protect and serve the public. One could argue the only thing they protected yesterday was jewelry or whatever those guys stole.
Just what I thought. You don't have the stones for the work, don't know what you would do if you were in a similar set of circumstances and offer nothing but criticism. Are you related to Colin Kaepernick, because you sound just like him.
You're right I don't have the stones for the work, but that doesn't mean jack schit. You don't get a free pass to harm the public just because you got the flat top haircut. You're firing blanks here with your argument.
Good thing they didnt hijack a full school bus and park in the middle of a parade.......
It's entirely possible that the cops would have used a different set of tactics in that situation. Crazy, I know.
so now you're saying the police would have backed off and not chased the criminals into rush hour traffic if it was a hostage situation with school kids? There was an alternative option in overtaking the criminals?
I count over 70 law enforcement officers in this video from the 4:20 to 4:50 time mark.
That's what went wrong.. too many Indians and not enough chiefs.
Now we have reached a point of agreement. That is way too many. And I have seen that in the past in situations like this. In an incredibly difficult, fluid, multi-jurisdictional situation that is way beyond any on scene commanders span of control, and given the comparatively short duration, not enough time to develop an adequate incident command.
I hope as a result of this that law enforcement all across the country will develop better tactics.
There's certainly a discussion to be had there. And I know without a doubt in the extensive reviews this undergoes that will be discussed.
You have the value of hindsight. With that, what would you do if you were calling the shots? Start from the point that you knew armed robbers had taken a UPS driver hostage and were fleeing in his truck. As you discuss what you would do, discuss the potential negative consequences of your actions and inactions.
I wouldn't be calling the shots. For $60K a year, 2 divorces, learning to be a functional alcoholic and a bad pension isn't worth having a job where there is no margin of error in dealing with the worst of society
but they signed up for that, and their job is to protect and serve the public. One could argue the only thing they protected yesterday was jewelry or whatever those guys stole.
Just what I thought. You don't have the stones for the work, don't know what you would do if you were in a similar set of circumstances and offer nothing but criticism. Are you related to Colin Kaepernick, because you sound just like him.
You're right I don't have the stones for the work, but that doesn't mean jack schit. You don't get a free pass to harm the public just because you got the flat top haircut. You're firing blanks here with your argument.
My argument is that the cops could not have chosen any path that wouldn't have found people who don't have the stones to do the work criticizing them and wouldn't have presented other substantial risk to human life.
My argument is that the cops could not have chosen any path that wouldn't have found people who don't have the stones to do the work criticizing them and wouldn't have presented other substantial risk to human life.
Tell me how I am wrong.
well first of all, I'm certain there will be people who do "have the stones" to do the work criticizing them which marginalizes your argument
but at the moment, I'm struggling to find your point other than don't criticize the police when they pull out their guns and shoot people.
My argument is that the cops could not have chosen any path that wouldn't have found people who don't have the stones to do the work criticizing them and wouldn't have presented other substantial risk to human life.
Tell me how I am wrong.
but at the moment, I'm struggling to find your point .
Then you need to learn to read more critically, because I just summarized it succinctly in my previous post. You truly do sound like the BLM types. They have no solutions only criticism of cops when cops hurt blacks.
This was a case of the cops doing the wrong thing at the wrong time. It was absolutely stupid on their part to engage those two perps in a shootout in that situation. It is a wonder there were not more innocent people killed. I hope the family of the UPS driver and the other bystander sue the cops for every penny they are worth.......and then some.
This was a case of the cops doing the wrong thing at the wrong time. It was absolutely stupid on their part to engage those two perps in a shootout in that situation. It is a wonder there were not more innocent people killed. I hope the family of the UPS driver and the other bystander sue the cops for every penny they are worth.......and then some.
I'll ask you too, and I have a hunch I know what the response will be. Imagine yourself being the HMFIC. When the armed robbers took the driver hostage and took off in his truck, what would you have done?
This was a case of the cops doing the wrong thing at the wrong time. It was absolutely stupid on their part to engage those two perps in a shootout in that situation. It is a wonder there were not more innocent people killed. I hope the family of the UPS driver and the other bystander sue the cops for every penny they are worth.......and then some.
I'll ask you too, and I have a hunch I know what the response will be. Imagine yourself being the HMFIC. When the armed robbers took the driver hostage and took off in his truck, what would you have done?
anything but engage them in the place they did. They did not have to do that around all those people.
My argument is that the cops could not have chosen any path that wouldn't have found people who don't have the stones to do the work criticizing them and wouldn't have presented other substantial risk to human life.
Tell me how I am wrong.
but at the moment, I'm struggling to find your point .
Then you need to learn to read more critically, because I just summarized it succinctly in my previous post. You truly do sound like the BLM types. They have no solutions only criticism of cops when cops hurt blacks.
you should quit while you're behind, but you won't
in the coming days there are going to be plenty of people demanding to investigate why this happened "who don't have the stones". You can call them BLM supporters or Kaepernick or whatever you think is particularly witty , but it won't change that innocent people died in a situation where 200 shots were fired in rush hour traffic. Someone is going to answer for that.
This was a case of the cops doing the wrong thing at the wrong time. It was absolutely stupid on their part to engage those two perps in a shootout in that situation. It is a wonder there were not more innocent people killed. I hope the family of the UPS driver and the other bystander sue the cops for every penny they are worth.......and then some.
I'll ask you too, and I have a hunch I know what the response will be. Imagine yourself being the HMFIC. When the armed robbers took the driver hostage and took off in his truck, what would you have done?
anything but engage them in the place they did. They did not have to do that around all those people.
Come on, you are going to criticize them and all you can offer as an alternative plan of action is "anything but engage them where they did?"
An officer on scene said that when the truck came to a stop the robbers started shooting indiscriminately. You are saying when they did that, the cops should have remained in their cars?
Back yourself out to the beginning and tell me how you would manage this in a way that guaranteed no innocent lives were lost.
After the fact arm chair quarterbacking is total BS but since you ask.
No it isn't. As it should be, this incident will be the focus of intense review, and will serve as the basis for policy and training for years to come.
Back yourself out to the beginning and tell me how you would manage this in a way that guaranteed no innocent lives were lost.
After the fact arm chair quarterbacking is total BS but since you ask.
Not being a trained LEO I don't understand the benefit of 75 squad cars verses half a dozen when apprehending 2 individuals.
If I didn't let that happen (75 different cars/cops) I could be more capable of developing and controlling strategies when dealing with 6 or so.
That's where I'd start.
It's said the pursuing officers were drawing fire.
Back off until they aren't, find the robbers comfort zone while protect bystanders, win/win.
The truck is pretty big to worry of losing it in traffic it's GPS tacked by UPS anyway, it can't get away.
That's a start...................
Let me see if I understand you correctly. You are going to have 6 or so officers in pursuit. When the truck comes to a stop and the robbers start shooting indiscriminately, you are going to have the cops back off?
Let me see if I understand you correctly. You are going to have 6 or so officers in pursuit. When the truck comes to a stop and the robbers start shooting indiscriminately, you are going to have the cops back off?
No, you don't....
Originally Posted by JeffA
It's said the pursuing officers were drawing fire.
As in along the 25 mile route they traveled during the pursuit...
Had to take them 25 minutes or so to cover that much ground, I would be learning the bad guys characteristics along the way, before they found themselves trapped.
No matter what transpired or what situation people feel the cops were in there’s ZERO justification for killing innocent lives when up to that point nobody else had been killed. There’s no justification for good guys killing innocent civilians, NONE!
I assume that the bad guys weren’t carrying cases of ammunition and they had a relatively finite number of reloads available to them. Pushing them into a corner and firing indiscriminately was a bad and fatal mistake for the innocent truck driver and another civilian.
5 different agencies, FIVE! All fired their weapons in their attempt to make the wall of fame back at the station. I haven’t yet heard the total number of cops that got to pull the trigger and use their pew-pew but we know that AT LEAST 5 did in fact use their weapon.
I’m with Jorge, I was surprised that none of the cops I saw used a rifle when rifles are ubiquitous with patrol cars and the M4 makes them look so much more intimidating. A rifle was the right tool in that scenario despite its tendency to over penetrate. 😉
Oh crap, here we go again this morning.. Hope this don't turn into another who shot who..
Naval Air Station Pensacola shooting leaves two dead, several injured; gunman dead
“There's probably been 100 or so various law enforcement vehicles zooming down the wrong side on Navy Boulevard,” he said, adding that he received a call from co-workers on base who reported being on lockdown."
"3 dead, including suspect, in shooting at Naval Air Station Pensacola; at least 11 hospitalized"
Who gets to make that judgement call? Were they shooting at birds? Road signs?
The pavement? Why didn't they just unload their weapons safely?
Would it have been different if the shooting was well aimed and well executed?
Naturally, it would seem to be easier to justify killing everyone at the scene........if the firing was "indiscriminate".
The collateral damage would have been much, much greater had we not killed all of them.........right? Cause you know....indiscriminate fire?
Had they been taking careful,aimed shots at the cops.....we could have just killed the bad guys......yes?
if you're one of 75 police cars being shot at, I can see how your interpretation is indiscriminate, that's got to be a pretty wide field of fire from the criminals vantage point.
now if they hopped out of the truck and started shooting in the direction the UPS truck was faciing, opposite of the police - now that's indiscriminate
No matter what transpired or what situation people feel the cops were in there’s ZERO justification for killing innocent lives when up to that point nobody else had been killed. There’s no justification for good guys killing innocent civilians, NONE!
The information that LE had was that shots were fired prior to their response to the robbery.
Come on, you are going to criticize them and all you can offer as an alternative plan of action is "anything but engage them where they did?"
An officer on scene said that when the truck came to a stop the robbers started shooting indiscriminately. You are saying when they did that, the cops should have remained in their cars?
Cops should have never blocked that intersection and used the civilians to make a barricade and once involved in the fight they should have never used a civilian as cover.
I've seen cops block cross traffic for perps to continue through an intersection unheeded by cross traffic and then stop them where things are less likely to involve citizens that's what should have happened here.
There was a bank robbery here local and they let the perps go on down the highway unheeded until they could catch them is a much less populated area, they even blocked on ramps to keep traffic off of the highway. They did a great job an only the perps died when they crashed their vehicle and decided to go out in a blaze of glory.
There's a whole lot of fuqking up in this chase and it's going to get expensive for sure.
Those ups trucks are geo tracked by the company, why not just ease back let them drive to "where ever" and let em ditch or run out of fuel , helicopter could still follow
Be less tense and less need for everyone to get all Tackleberry and shoot innocents.
Just a scenario.
Oh well what's done is done.
Interesting to see some of the cops from 1/10 mile back running up after the truck had been subdued. What, did they want to dump a magazine too??
Holy schit... Civilians in cars everywhere. Hostage situation. What happened to any concept of some sort of precision fire and round accountability. Kinda shoulda maybe stacked up some scoped long guns to the front of that police convoy if possible.....
"Hey boys this is your chance to get some rounds off at something besides paper for the 1st or only time in your career type of thing" "Get some"!!!
The local govts. will just raise taxes on the down low to cover the eventual lawsuits from this fiasco.
Did you read where an officer on scene said the robbers began firing indiscriminately? If the officers had retreated and innocents were killed, you'd be pounding your chest calling the cops pussies.
Thats your point of veiw about my post. Thanks for your interpretation of it for all to see. Feel better? Good....
Anyone notice the helicopter.... why didnt they just eye in the sky it... a few police cars and keep a moving perimeter.
Paul Barnard is right about one thing.. this will be used for training going forward, that what not to do type of training.
I was always taught to outwit your advisory... they chose the “lets put every meat head with a pistol on their ass” technique... yeah, the bad guys died but there was so much more collateral damage than needed.
Those ups trucks are geo tracked by the company, why not just ease back let them drive to "where ever" and let em ditch or run out of fuel , helicopter could still follow
Be less tense and less need for everyone to get all Tackleberry and shoot innocents.
Just a scenario.
Oh well what's done is done.
Interesting to see some of the cops from 1/10 mile back running up after the truck had been subdued. What, did they want to dump a magazine too??
That may indeed have been the best course of action. I can assure you though that there are substantial risks in that plan of action. You had two armed robbers who were believed to have fired shots departing in a UPS vehicle with a hostage. That vehicle will be dumped at the first available opportunity. At that point they are likely going to take the most readily available vehicle and likely the occupants.
I was a slow convert to police no-pursuit policies for moving violations, but I eventually got there. I may one day come around to the idea of non-pursuit of armed robbers with hostages.
Come on, you are going to criticize them and all you can offer as an alternative plan of action is "anything but engage them where they did?"
An officer on scene said that when the truck came to a stop the robbers started shooting indiscriminately. You are saying when they did that, the cops should have remained in their cars?
Cops should have never blocked that intersection and used the civilians to make a barricade and once involved in the fight they should have never used a civilian as cover.
I've seen cops block cross traffic for perps to continue through an intersection unheeded by cross traffic and then stop them where things are less likely to involve citizens that's what should have happened here.
There was a bank robbery here local and they let the perps go on down the highway unheeded until they could catch them is a much less populated area, they even blocked on ramps to keep traffic off of the highway. They did a great job an only the perps died when they crashed their vehicle and decided to go out in a blaze of glory.
There's a whole lot of fuqking up in this chase and it's going to get expensive for sure.
It obviously didn't work out this way, but what if the robbers, in the face of overwhelming force, surrendered rather than opened fire at that point. Would we be criticizing the decision to block the intersection?
No matter what transpired or what situation people feel the cops were in there’s ZERO justification for killing innocent lives when up to that point nobody else had been killed. There’s no justification for good guys killing innocent civilians, NONE!
The information that LE had was that shots were fired prior to their response to the robbery.
Yes sir I saw that. Shots fired is a far cry from man down with a GSW. Like I said, up until the cops fired shots nobody had been shot, after the 19 cops got to fulfill their wet dreams there were 2 innocent people dead including the hostage.
It’s a tough situation that was obviously exacerbated by ineptness, poor training, the desire to get your first kill, etc.
The Finnicum incident in Oregon was a great example of the blood thirsty desire some cops have to get a notch on their belt. The FBI fired when it was no longer necessary out of that same desire, they then lied about it in an attempt to cover it up.
I just can’t see how killing 2 innocent people in this case can be acceptable or excused.....it’s not acceptable. As a gentleman earlier said, if this was war the soldier that killed non combatants would face a court martial but in this case 2 innocent people were killed and it’ll be written off as the cost of doing business. Sad deal all the way around.
No matter what transpired or what situation people feel the cops were in there’s ZERO justification for killing innocent lives when up to that point nobody else had been killed. There’s no justification for good guys killing innocent civilians, NONE!
The information that LE had was that shots were fired prior to their response to the robbery.
Yes sir I saw that. Shots fired is a far cry from man down with a GSW. Like I said, up until the cops fired shots nobody had been shot, after the 19 cops got to fulfill their wet dreams there were 2 innocent people dead including the hostage.
It’s a tough situation that was obviously exacerbated by ineptness, poor training, the desire to get your first kill, etc.
The Finnicum incident in Oregon was a great example of the blood thirsty desire some cops have to get a notch on their belt. The FBI fired when it was no longer necessary out of that same desire, they then lied about it in an attempt to cover it up.
I just can’t see how killing 2 innocent people in this case can be acceptable or excused.....it’s not acceptable. As a gentleman earlier said, if this was war the soldier that killed non combatants would face a court martial but in this case 2 innocent people were killed and it’ll be written off as the cost of doing business. Sad deal all the way around.
You are grossly uninformed if you think cops are looking for a notch in their belt. I spent 20 years on active duty with the Coast Guard doing maritime law enforcement. NONE of my peers had that mentality. I often worked hand-in-hand with officers from other federal, state and local agencies. I also earned my certification as a reserve deputy with Harrison County in Mississippi. I knew a few officers who were a tad more gung-ho than I was comfortable with, but to a man or woman when you had an honest discussion with them they would tell you that their hope would be that they would never have to use deadly force. And they meant it.
The killing of two innocent people is heartbreaking and tragic. Unfortunately in armed and hostile situations law enforcement officers and agencies will sometimes take a course of action where innocent people are put at risk. That is unavoidable.
I think its pretty obvious that the general population thats aware of this, is upset over it.
The general population is the paying customer here. You can say they dont know or understand, but the fact of the matter is, they dont like what they saw, and rightfully so.
I worked in law enforcement and I know of what I speak. 😉. I was also assigned to marine patrol, not that that has anything to do with this situation, so I do know what I’m saying and it comes from first hand knowledge. I worked with guys that openly yearned for the opportunity to fire their Beretta 96’s in anger.
Reality is what we witness, fantasy is what we use to excuse this kind of stupidity.
You’ve conveniently forgotten about Waco, Ruby Ridge, Burns Oregon and countless smaller incidents like this one. If you or anyone thinks those guys weren’t amped up to use deadly force in any of the aforementioned incidents then you’re grossly ignorant of reality.
19 officers opened fire on a crowded freeway firing 200 or more rounds......GMAFB.
I think its pretty obvious that the general population thats aware of this, is upset over it.
The general population is the paying customer here. You can say they dont know or understand, but the fact of the matter is, they dont like what they saw, and rightfully so.
If the taxpayers don't want enforcement agencies pursuing armed hostage takers, then by all means they should make their voices heard, get what they want, and accept the inevitable consequences.
’They murdered him:’ Family of UPS driver killed in shootout lashes out at police
MIRAMAR – While mourning his death, the family of the UPS driver killed in Thursday’s shootout in Miramar is also lashing out at police who they believe are responsible for the loss of life.
“They murdered him,” said Joe Merino, the stepfather of Frank Ordonez. “I hope you can understand that and how I feel because it could have been prevented.”
While admitting he’s not a police officer, Merino wonders why there was a rush to open fire at the truck before other options were considered.
“I have common sense, like we all do and it shows me where’s the protocol? Where was protocol? Where was SWAT? Where was the hostage negotiator? Where was the sniper?”
“They shot him dead!"
Merino believes police failed to consider the innocent victims, including his stepson, during the incident.
“The negligence, the irresponsibility, the lack of life, the lack of concern. The disregard for life for the victim."
A former UPS employee himself, Merino says the video of the shootout is proof that police acted inappropriately at the scene, calling it the “wild, wild west.”
“There’s bullets everywhere. It was a war zone. How can this happen in today’s day and age?”
Merino says the family remains in shock less 24 hours after Ordonez’s death, having not slept all night. He added that the family was frustrated about the original lack of communication from law enforcement officials regarding their son’s status.
Ordonez was killed after gunfire broke out between police and the two suspects who stole the UPS truck after an attempted armed robbery in Coral Gables. Police opened fire after the truck came to a stop on Miramar Parkway. Ordonez, the two suspects and an innocent bystander were killed.
Using the handle @Geneviemerino, “Genny” mourned the loss of her brother on Twitter, but also blames the police for his death.
“Today I lost my brother because of the (expletive) negligence and stupidity of the police." “Genny" wrote in the post. "Instead of negotiating with a hostage situation they just shot everyone.”
’They murdered him:’ Family of UPS driver killed in shootout lashes out at police
MIRAMAR – While mourning his death, the family of the UPS driver killed in Thursday’s shootout in Miramar is also lashing out at police who they believe are responsible for the loss of life.
“They murdered him,” said Joe Merino, the stepfather of Frank Ordonez. “I hope you can understand that and how I feel because it could have been prevented.”
While admitting he’s not a police officer, Merino wonders why there was a rush to open fire at the truck before other options were considered.
“I have common sense, like we all do and it shows me where’s the protocol? Where was protocol? Where was SWAT? Where was the hostage negotiator? Where was the sniper?”
“They shot him dead!"
Merino believes police failed to consider the innocent victims, including his stepson, during the incident.
“The negligence, the irresponsibility, the lack of life, the lack of concern. The disregard for life for the victim."
A former UPS employee himself, Merino says the video of the shootout is proof that police acted inappropriately at the scene, calling it the “wild, wild west.”
“There’s bullets everywhere. It was a war zone. How can this happen in today’s day and age?”
Merino says the family remains in shock less 24 hours after Ordonez’s death, having not slept all night. He added that the family was frustrated about the original lack of communication from law enforcement officials regarding their son’s status.
Ordonez was killed after gunfire broke out between police and the two suspects who stole the UPS truck after an attempted armed robbery in Coral Gables. Police opened fire after the truck came to a stop on Miramar Parkway. Ordonez, the two suspects and an innocent bystander were killed.
Using the handle @Geneviemerino, “Genny” mourned the loss of her brother on Twitter, but also blames the police for his death.
“Today I lost my brother because of the (expletive) negligence and stupidity of the police." “Genny" wrote in the post. "Instead of negotiating with a hostage situation they just shot everyone.”
I didn't realize that we had already learned that it was the cops who fired the fatal shot into the UPS driver. The driver's brother must be one hell of a negotiator if he is willing to negotiate with armed robbers who are shooting at him.
What a cluster fugk. Police using other citizens as shields is a horrible look.
Have they reported the identities of the folks killed in the crossfire? Godspeed to them both.
While nobody, Id include the police brass and officers, likely thinks this was handled well, I can certainly see how it got there. [bleep] hit the fan quick and nobody had a plan.
UPS man had a better chance to live if the robbers had gotten away. The dead civilian damn sure would be alive. Way to go cops, at least you went home alive at the end of your shift all jacked up on adrenaline from mag dumps....
Police using other citizens as shields is a horrible look.
I didn't see that happen. I did see them using the vehicles for cover. If I am in a situation where I am going to have to try to take out someone shooting at me or others and my choices are standing in the open or using the nearest vehicle, I am going to use the nearest vehicle. For me it would be reflexive.
I can't help but wonder how the conversation will change if it is learned that the robbers killed the UPS driver and the motorist.
I cant help but wonder if the trigger happy meat heads hadnt of been 70+ deep chasing the robbers into bumper to bumper traffic if the innocent deaths wouldnt have happened...
Why are you being so defensive for others obvious negligence? Your not going to change the minds of the majority, we saw what we saw....
I didn't realize that we had already learned that it was the cops who fired the fatal shot into the UPS driver. The driver's brother must be one hell of a negotiator if he is willing to negotiate with armed robbers who are shooting at him.
All debate aside, if you want to be more informed in these situations. Once a YT video is posted you can "rip it" or download it into your computer via any "free YT downloader".
Once you have a copy of a video you can view it a frame at a time in a much larger format.
A lot becomes obvious at that point.
I think that is why many are skipping right past the who done it debate..
Police using other citizens as shields is a horrible look.
I didn't see that happen. I did see them using the vehicles for cover. If I am in a situation where I am going to have to try to take out someone shooting at me or others and my choices are standing in the open or using the nearest vehicle, I am going to use the nearest vehicle. For me it would be reflexive.
So if a car is full of innocent folks you call it the car you are using and no longer the people inside it?
Police using other citizens as shields is a horrible look.
I didn't see that happen. I did see them using the vehicles for cover. If I am in a situation where I am going to have to try to take out someone shooting at me or others and my choices are standing in the open or using the nearest vehicle, I am going to use the nearest vehicle. For me it would be reflexive.
So if a car is full of innocent folks you call it the car you are using and no longer the people inside it?
You don't have a valid argument there...
I am drawing a distinction between a person as a shield and a person in a vehicle being used as cover. There is a difference. Granted, I don't like either one. I can see myself reflexively using the occupied car. I would never use a person as cover and it's not because they make lousy cover.
Come on, you are going to criticize them and all you can offer as an alternative plan of action is "anything but engage them where they did?"
An officer on scene said that when the truck came to a stop the robbers started shooting indiscriminately. You are saying when they did that, the cops should have remained in their cars?
Cops should have never blocked that intersection and used the civilians to make a barricade and once involved in the fight they should have never used a civilian as cover.
I've seen cops block cross traffic for perps to continue through an intersection unheeded by cross traffic and then stop them where things are less likely to involve citizens that's what should have happened here.
There was a bank robbery here local and they let the perps go on down the highway unheeded until they could catch them is a much less populated area, they even blocked on ramps to keep traffic off of the highway. They did a great job an only the perps died when they crashed their vehicle and decided to go out in a blaze of glory.
There's a whole lot of fuqking up in this chase and it's going to get expensive for sure.
It obviously didn't work out this way, but what if the robbers, in the face of overwhelming force, surrendered rather than opened fire at that point. Would we be criticizing the decision to block the intersection?
Why are you being so defensive for others obvious negligence? Your not going to change the minds of the majority, we saw what we saw....
He really is not. He is just creating healthy debate which draws out constructive conversation.
It's not like most here that can't hold decent conversation without name calling and the rest the garbage that often fills pages of these forums.
It's all good....................
Jeff, I am encouraged to see you look at it that way. That's really all it is. It's just a horrible outcome to what I see as a no-win situation.
In exploring this with you, we did find common ground. There were an unmanageable number of officers involved. That is going to come up in the incident review. I still don't know what I would do if I were the one person calling all the enforcement shots in this scenario. I do know this. No matter what plan I enacted there's be an internet full of people criticizing me. I also know that no plan would guarantee no collateral loss of life.
I am drawing a distinction between a person as a shield and a person in a vehicle being used as cover. There is a difference. Granted, I don't like either one. I can see myself reflexively using the occupied car. I would never use a person as cover and it's not because they make lousy cover.
There may be a difference in your mind but the concept will not be shared by many..
I can't help but wonder how the conversation will change if it is learned that the robbers killed the UPS driver and the motorist.
I cant help but wonder if the trigger happy meat heads hadnt of been 70+ deep chasing the robbers into bumper to bumper traffic if the innocent deaths wouldnt have happened...
Why are you being so defensive for others obvious negligence? Your not going to change the minds of the majority, we saw what we saw....
I guess you could say I am being defensive. I tend to do that when people will criticize others having never walked in their shoes and will do so without being able to lay out a course of action that would guarantee better results. The outcome was horrible. Do you know that it could have been much worse had other courses of action been taken?
In exploring this with you, we did find common ground. There were an unmanageable number of officers involved. That is going to come up in the incident review. I still don't know what I would do if I were the one person calling all the enforcement shots in this scenario. I do know this. No matter what plan I enacted there's be an internet full of people criticizing me. I also know that no plan would guarantee no collateral loss of life.
The "unmanageable number of officers involved" is key.
But even if that had not been allowed to happen and a single qualified incident commander was running the show with a manageable number of officers there was not enough time when that light changed to red and everyone piled up on each other to have changed the course of events....
Unless a allowable distance to follow had been established. A distance that the bad guys felt no need to protect themselves from. A distance where they no longer felt the need to fire upon their pursuers.
The chase lasted 20 to 30 minutes, there was plenty of time to figure that out.
Establishing that single thing could have changed the outcome of this event drastically.
This was a case of the cops doing the wrong thing at the wrong time. It was absolutely stupid on their part to engage those two perps in a shootout in that situation. It is a wonder there were not more innocent people killed. I hope the family of the UPS driver and the other bystander sue the cops for every penny they are worth.......and then some.
That's the answer, sue everybody and make it right. That sure will cost the cops involved because they will have to pay out of their own pockets. They might even get STARMAN to do the paperwork.
Jeff, I am encouraged to see you look at it that way. That's really all it is. It's just a horrible outcome to what I see as a no-win situation.
In exploring this with you, we did find common ground. There were an unmanageable number of officers involved. That is going to come up in the incident review. I still don't know what I would do if I were the one person calling all the enforcement shots in this scenario. I do know this. No matter what plan I enacted there's be an internet full of people criticizing me. I also know that no plan would guarantee no collateral loss of life.
Paul, don't take this the wrong way, it's not a comment on your posts. You hit the nail on the head in the post I quoted though.
That scene was from 1979-80. One would think the authorities might have learned by now.
It never ceases to amaze me why so many LE resources must show up for every incident, no matter the size. The perception that overwhelming force will rule the day?
This was a case of the cops doing the wrong thing at the wrong time. It was absolutely stupid on their part to engage those two perps in a shootout in that situation. It is a wonder there were not more innocent people killed. I hope the family of the UPS driver and the other bystander sue the cops for every penny they are worth.......and then some.
I'll ask you too, and I have a hunch I know what the response will be. Imagine yourself being the HMFIC. When the armed robbers took the driver hostage and took off in his truck, what would you have done?
Follow at a reasonable distance and stage other officers ahead.
Don't press hard or close in until they are in an area with minimal general public in the area.
Around here, because of lawsuits, cops back off any pursuit that threaten the general public.
I am going to drop this here before I head to the woods. I always try to empathize.
I am trying to think of what i would have done as an officer in that situation. I am one of the first in the pursuit. The UPS vehicle gets jammed up and stops. I get out of my cruiser (or do I) then close the distance. As I do hostile fire erupts from the truck where the hostage is being held.
Is the shooting coming from the truck a threat to the motorists? If I don't act will innocent lives be lost? Do I dive behind an innocent person's car for cover and possible place them at risk of any fire I draw? Do I stand in the open and engage the shooter? Will my instinct to seek cover under fire even allow me to do that? Do I run back to my cruiser? Is there any action I can take that won't have potentially disastrous consequences? If in the split seconds I had to make the decision, I chose the best one, would I be able to execute it properly under intense stress?
"Alexander & Hill, Who Have Long Criminal Histories"
Wow, who could have seen that coming.
I imagine there is someone out there who made the decision to not prosceute, parole early or otherwise keep them from serving full sentences for their crimes. That person will be enjoying a glass of brandy and a fine cigar tonight, smug in their immunity from responsibility. God help the bartender who doesn't detect their customer is drunk and that customer delivers a DUI death to someone.
The fbi and local leo will cater the outcome to towards it being some magical perps' bullets that killed the innocents.
Nothing the fbi has their hand in has any more credibility. NONE, ZERO.
Yep thought the same thing last night. FBI will say Ups driver was already dead, killed by one of the robbers. never mind the supposedly 200 plus bullets in the ups truck.. now the girl killed in her car might take some more explaining so they might pull Lee Harvey Oswald out of retirement for that one.
The dude in the car was probably shot by the bad guys, his car is a few lanes over but next to where the cop cars were parked. It wouldn't have been in the police line of fire where it sat but could have caught a bullet from someone shooting at the cops from the drivers side of the UPS truck.
About a 99% chance the cops off'ed the UPS driver. The videos are pretty clear, a few not posted here from other angles offer clear views as well but they all show the same.
In the video interview of the UPS drivers father he states he has talked with the FBI and has information he can't share, but he is positive the cops shot his son. 2+2=
the police union says “11 officers from the department opened fire” but the robbers “started firing first.”
“It’s unfortunate that the bystanders were killed, but the bad guys put all this in motion,” said Steadman Stahl to the newspaper. He’s the president of the Miami-Dade Police Benevolent Association.
I'm for LEO but when you have a bunch of trigger happy Barney fifes running around does not help their image. Only drums up more animosity towards them, sounds like the people down in Florida are not happy.
The dead guy being identified as a "by stander" was in the dark colored 4 door car parked at an angle in the right hand lanes toward the end of this video. It looks like a typical unmarked detectives car but it's not. It's a full size Lincoln, it's appearance could be why he was shot at by the bad guys.
The UPS driver is the one on the ground getting all the attention, the cops knew they f'ed up.
Fact: If you fire a shot you are responsible for that bullets impact point. Pass throughs and misses that injure the innocent are not acceptable. This is the standard for all and even more so for paid professionals. LE and most of the military lack the funding to train to this level so situations similar to this occur repeatedly.
Many critical posts regarding this incident are based on supposition based on the result of a fast moving fluid situation. Speculation and monday morning quarterbacking, largely by the untrained, is of recreational value only. I have yet to determine if the shots that killed the innocents were fired by the police or the perps, if anyone can verify this info let me know.
Question: should the cops have let the BGs and hostage go unimpeded and free of pursuit in hope of a better result? If so explain your reasoning and provide the training and experience that supports your conclusions.
This entire situation sucked mightily and was initiated by the actions of the perps. Most of the crap spewed on this thread resembles the mindless ramblings of the MSM.
Too many officers in pursuit. Command structure broken down if it existed. were all the cops on the same radio channel and was it so busy nobody could hear. Not clear if all the cops even knew there was a hostage
It's an absolute shame how this ended. As far as too many cope per perps as has been addressed by someone here, only a fool engages in a fair gunfight. If you find yourself in a fair gunfight, you better be in a total defense mode. When the UPS van ran in to stopped traffic, than the bandits got out with what may have sounded with full auto fire rifles behind the driver and shot the driver, it was clear the only way this was going to end was in their deaths. They had already made up their minds, they weren't going to be taken alive. If by chance they had gotten away, this would have been repeated again. Their thought process being they got away once already, they're too smart to be caught. Damn shame about the innocent bystanders. Nothing can make that right. I don't see any good ending with people like this and am surprised more people weren't killed.
On of the many problems today is that there will be anti LE finding lots of fault
There will be pro LE explaining things
Both have an agenda and see it from thier side Than there will be a study and when the,results come out the sides will find fault,with the study and cry cover up or BS scape goat
The Lawyers will look for a huge pay day
And in the end a brother sister husband wife friend etc will still be,innocently slaughtered
And many LE and civilians caught in this will be traumatised and never sleep well
Because of a couple azz bags with nothing to loose
Random acts of violence are just horrible some even worse than others
Good thing they didnt hijack a full school bus and park in the middle of a parade.......
It's entirely possible that the cops would have used a different set of tactics in that situation. Crazy, I know.
so now you're saying the police would have backed off and not chased the criminals into rush hour traffic if it was a hostage situation with school kids? There was an alternative option in overtaking the criminals?
you have checkmated PB.
Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
The cops were NOT using human shields. They were using the vehicles as cover.
If cops in a gunfight ever hid behind a baby in a pram , you would argue the 'technicality' they didn't hide behind a child ..they only took cover behind a pram.
Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
You really haven't thought this through have you? The truck came to a stop in heavy traffic. The robbers started shooting indiscriminately. Drivers were stuck with nowhere to go. ...
LE could have swarmed/surrounded the UPS struck and brought it to a STOP with its large armada of SUVs-/patrol vehicles on a more open stretch of road well before that traffic jam,...instead, they followed at a safe distance and waited for a traffic jam full of captive innocents to engage in an all- hell- break- loose gun battle.
Miami police and other officers appear to have used surrounding bystanders as "human shields" when they responded to the the hijacked UPS truck following an armed heist of a jewelry store Thursday. After suspects led police on a two-county rush-hour chase through Miami which ended in a hail of gunfire in the middle of crowded traffic on Miramar Parkway and Flamingo Road, hundreds of police bullets from 19 officers firing on the truck brought it to an end.
As we reported earlier, four people have been confirmed dead, including the robbers and the UPS driver, since identified as 27-year-old Frank Ordonez, who unluckily had been taken hostage on a day he was reportedly filling in for another driver. Some of his own family members are blaming the "trigger happy" Florida police for killing him in their overeagerness to stop the criminals.
An investigation is underway which will also focus on the other innocent bystander that died — an unidentified person shot while trapped at the intersection in one of the many surrounding vehicles.
A number of online commentators noted the dramatic scene of police immediately rushing into stalled traffic on foot and emptying their weapons in return fire appeared something more from a Hollywood action movie.
Viral video shows the UPS truck stopped amid heavy traffic with bystanders in their vehicles on either side. But the police response is now under criticism given that instead of hanging back and waiting for fewer civilians to be in the line of fire, or even establishing contact through a police negotiator, officers rushed the UPS truck in a blaze of bullets.
Police had the other option of backing off the easily identifiable and trackable large brown UPS truck in order to engage with it in a more open area.
The fbi and local leo will cater the outcome to towards it being some magical perps' bullets that killed the innocents.
Nothing the fbi has their hand in has any more credibility. NONE, ZERO.
The last straw would be if Lon Horiuchi were there on the scene as an undercover detective and he was in the front row putting mag dumps on the UPS driver....
That totally sucks for the UPS driver. Poor bastard just trying to earn a living has to endure the carjacking and then get killed while thinking he was free. prayers for the innocent victims. rot in hell for the perps.
The police absolutely used the cars on the freeway as shields, even though there were people in them. Women and children. Those cops were COWARDS and I hope they rot in hell.
Here is a blip from a African American vloger where he offers his commentary as he flips through the news post on this incident..His point of view may surprise some...
If a guy referring to white folks as "crackers" bothers you, well..watch anyway:-)
You might want to jump to around the five minute mark to start....
When September 11 went down in NYC those firefighters ran into the burning buildings knowing they might not get out. They are hero’s for doing so
There are not hero’s on the cops side save some of the cops out in the open on the passengers side of the truck. I expect the cops to act in the best interest of the population. That means getting in the line of fire if needed to protect bystanders. If a police officer dies protecting bystanders he is a hero in my mind. Hiding behind occupied cars is just Cowardly.
You sign up to be a cop. You sign up for the risk period. no excuses if you can’t deal with it. Turn in your badge
Still early to make definitive judgments on a lot of this discussed IMO. A bad deal, I blame the two perps 100% although I do not like the use of occupied vehicles for cover by some of the LEOs.
The guy who but the bullet hole on the very top edge of the UPS truck ought to spend a bit more time at the range before opening fire in a public setting.
Question: should the cops have let the BGs and hostage go unimpeded and free of pursuit in hope of a better result? If so explain your reasoning and provide the training and experience that supports your conclusions.
Answer: Yes
Explanation: Replace the UPS employee with a LEO as the hostage.
My Training: Common Sense.
My Experience: Decades of life experiences to gain Common Sense.
If the hostage would've been a LEO, that whole chase would NOT have been handled as it did, and the LEO's on scene would not have committed involuntary manslaughter, like they did on the UPS driver.
Now, you are in Checkmate with the above scenario...deal with it.
P.S. Sure is funny how not one single LEO on this thread touched my earlier post concerning this matter. Maybe it was because it was 100% truthful and directly over the target…Yeah, thought so.
The story on these 2 dudes is pretty standard fare. Multiple break-ins and burglaries as juvies and young adults. Maybe 5-10-15 times. Never really get disciplined due to the liberal court system here. Then, the numbers start catching up with them or they move up the ladder to violent crimes, ass-uming nothing will again ever happen to them because they never had to pay for their crimes in the past. Then, through some miraculous twist of unfortunate (for them) justice, they finally have to serve some real time. 7-8-10 years. They go to the yard where they complete their separation from law abiding society, rub elbows with monsters and come out un-rehabilitated and angry because they don't have the Hummer or Lexus in the driveway like the plumber next door to Baby Momma. That's when the schit starts getting real.. at 41 y.o.
And some people wonder in amazement why I roll the way I do..
The overwhelming use of force is being questioned after a chase in Florida ended in a deadly shootout with police. It started when two men, who the FBI said were already wanted for two similar heists near Miami, robbed a jewelry store and hijacked a UPS van.
After a 23-mile chase, the officers opened fire when the gunmen shot at them, leaving drivers in rush-hour traffic panicked and scrambling.
The two men who police said robbed the jewelry store were killed. But so was 70-year-old Richard Cutshaw, who was waiting in his car at the intersection. The UPS driver who was taken hostage, Frank Ordonez, was also killed.
Ordonez was father of two daughters, ages 3 and 5. Now his stepfather is criticizing the officers' actions.
"They disregard the hostage, they disregard for the people around the scene. They went out there like the old West," said Joe Merino.
Miami-Dade's police director, Juan Perez, explained why officers had to move in on the suspects, saying the suspects weren't just fleeing, they were being violent and "confronting officers shooting at them."
But Manny Orosa, who was Miami-Dade's police chief from 2011 to 2015, questions the tactic given the number of civilians and the hostage.
"If you're shooting into a truck and you don't have a clear vision of who you're shooting at, you don't just shoot at the truck," Orosa said.
they finally chitcanned that punk commie sheriff israel too.
it is the holidays you know ; ]
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