I'll start by agreeing that responsible armed members are a good thing.

There may be situation where less than gunfire is needed. What do you think?

not armed security is a death assignment.

I did not say unarmed, Asking about cases that do not call for rounds being fired.

Mmmm 22 or 380.

Richard, this will turn into another rehash of what has been discussed on here before. But, I don't care if it's church, a McDonalds, a Walmart, or the Prissy Missy beauty salon, but the only sure way to stop a would be killer is with lethal force. Anything else is not even debatable.

Why should "church security" be different from any other?

If less than lethal means are called for then don't use lethal means.....sounds fairly simple to me.

Almost all mass shooters plan on not surviving it. Many kill themselves before the cops can stop them. They're going to die anyway so help them get it done before more innocents die.

^^^THIS^^^

In those cases which do not call for the use of letal force, the judicious application of a good, old-fashioned, stick lickin', with a shillelegh, should suffice. An example of a situation which might call for this sort of action, as opposed to filling the offender with lead, would be an unruly drunk peeing in the Holy Water. Not a shooting offence but certainly deserving of a few well placed blows with the aforementioned instrument. GD

Yeah, "less than lethal"? Maybe a 25 Auto. lol

Honestly, most of y'all seem to have whole freaking security teams at Church. You could use tasers, cattle prods or whatnot. Batons, etc. This would be most helpful on some sinners who aren't towing the line too.

What's the question really? There are saps, powdered lead gloves, Louisville Sluggers...Bristoe lives in Kentucky, maybe he could get you a volume discount if you're a member of a mega-church like Jim Bakker used to run. Some Church member is getting rowdy and singing "Bringing in the Sheaves" too loud and some of this stuff could be useful. We've got some really poor singers that I've been tempted to use the Stun Gun on before.

Ball bats, Mace?

If they are gonna start some cshit, I doubt if it will be started except to kill innocents for no good reason.

Vandalism and shooting aren't even close to being the same thing. Getting close enough to a AR15 or shotgun packing shooter with a stick might not be the smartest thing you can do. Don't carry a stick to a gunfight.

Richard, your church should give Pastor Missy a double barrel shotgun to keep in the pulpit. Load one barrel with a non lethal bean bag round, and the other barrel with 00 Buck, and let her decide which barrel to use should something break out.

Yep. Me own sainted Gramma used to keep my Mom's baton from high school behind the front door so no rapists would get her. She saw something on the teevee recommending a length of garden hose for working over potential rapists (which in her mind was any black man she saw). She was swinging it around and telling me about it when I was about eleven or so. This was Dallas in the seventies and very dangerous (NOT).

But back to the point, I've heard others speak of getting real drunk Saturday night but always making it to Church Sunday morning, so I could see some issues with these members giving problems. Maybe taking several shots of the communion and shorting other members. Out comes the Baton or maybe just the garden hose if you're feeling especially forgiving that day.

What if it's a really sharp stick?

Sounds dangerous. Pastor Missy could get confused and nervous in all the excitement and let fly with Buck into the miscreant's crotch instead of just a beanbag round. Then you and the other Deacons have got quite the mess to deal with in Aisle Four instead of them just hauling out somebody whose only offense was staggering a bit to get to his pew. You know the Elder's ain't cleaning that up.

Sometimes a good, stern talking to is required.

And sometimes you just have to ignore the crying babies.

The first thing we need to do is to lock the doors just as the service starts.

We have a few guys on our security team that don’t carry firearms. It is interesting in that they all share a comparable personality. What I’m saying is, they aren’t the most macho guys in the world. They are good members in many ways, though. Over the years, we had had several instances where some physical intervention seemed imminent. Luckily, it never came to that. I’m glad that a sizable percyof our congregation is armed at our events.

Crew-served Nerf Vulcan

Set up a fire base from the choir loft, leave 2-3 members in the loft during the peaching hour (if missy can go that long)

My Daughter's had one of those since she was about ten. My Boy's got a bunch of others but was always jealous of her having the cannon. Think I got it for her at Sam's.

Have a code word, something everyone can commit to memory like Bosco or Sanka

Everyone hits the deck, the Vulcan starts laying down suppression fire

I'ma carry hers to Church concealed next time I go. Just in case. Should offset the Desert Eagle 50AE on my other side quite well.

The way I look at it, anything short of an active shooter can probably be dealt with by a group of determined churchgoers.

However, I can't for the life of me remember the last time that sort of thing happened-- at least it didn't make the papers. I do, however, recollect several nasty situations with active shooters in a church and the only ones that turned out for the better were where the perp got shot by someone close at hand.

Look, I'm all for giving the minister a taser and saying take your best shot. I'm just saying that probably it is not going to get the job done. Somebody is going to have to finish it with a firearm.

I would much prefer to be sitting in a pew with my EDC as with a non-lethal defense method.

WTF wabi? you got a bunch of feel gooders and do gooders trying to decide how to handle the hosers job?. If the perps aren't armed have the security boys and girls take them down and 1 deacon with the taser can make them pay att'n to the sermon ,then if they forget have another deacon on top them with a cattle prod. Used enough they will be ready for water boarding at the baptismal bowl. Somewhere in those activities they may actually have a "come to Jesus moment in time that forever changes their remaining life". But you hear it now, right here never let a pacifist declare or establish security policy. Good luck you going down the wrong road and need it.. MB

Sorry guys. Reguardless of the place the offense is taking place, an assailant brandishing a firearm can be dealt with in one way only. Pointing a gun at one or multiple individuals is proof enough IMO that the person causing the threat is intending to shoot. Wait for the first shot to be fired? Ponder what your response might be if the gun was pointed at you, or someone accross the room, then imagine the reverse. Yell "drop the gun" is only for legal protection, because it will most likely cause the perp to swing it toward you, forcing you to be shot, or shoot.

During service, lock all the doors, from the OUTSIDE, except for the main entrance. Inside the main entrance should be an armed security member. We tend to have an armed security member both outside and inside the main entrance. Develop key words and gestures that communicate to the security team that there is a problem that need addressed. Just sharing a few things that we do.

It’s really a ridiculous notion, this a trolling plain and simple.

Anyone coming into a church hell-bent to cause aggravated physical harm, is still going to be clutching THEIR LETHAL weapon as you spray them with mace, pepper, or tasers or attempt to pile in on them with a whoopin stick.

You’re only going to add more adrenaline to the bad guy’s intent.

The gun can still be used without firing, if needed. Say some a-hole charges up the aisle to assault the pastor, but no gun on person. Or a guy pulls out a knife and starts waving it like a banshee. Generally staring down a 40 caliber barrel while unarmed causes such subject to hit the ground in a wimper until his ass can be thrown out or dragged away in handcuffs.

If part of a church security team lesser forms of force should be available. Less than lethal means, such as a taser or more than likely some effective OC spray should be carried. Handcuffs should be carried but only very judiciously applied. Basic physical take down and control techniques should be learned and practiced.

We talk about the worst case scenario, a shooter. We have to understand that lesser threats may come. So, when is it appropriate to contain? When is it appropriate to control? What is the difference in types of containment? What non-physical or physical types of control are appropriate? All things security team members must understand.

So, if you are part of an unarmed security team what do you do when that offender escalates to lethal force? Do you step up and take rounds so that someone might escape? Understanding that when you take that round you are going down so fast that likely you helped no one.

You don't want to tap that bang switch. You don't want to but the thing is things can escalate out of control so fast that you have no other choice than to use that last ditch choice. All these choice's have to be selected reasonably and due to what is objectively observed.

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THIS. PERIOD.

Each pew be provided with a fire hose with pressure of 1200# psi!

Nap time!

We have a member who has his Class 3 license, and has several examples. I told him he should mount the MG42 where he can cover the sanctuary. He gave me a look that said "don't encourage me."

Tasers can work pretty well on everything from bears to meth heads. I know on both accounts

Give them hockey pucks.

A pistol in a holster, a sap in the back pocket, and a clear understanding of the force continuum ought to cover it.

Force continuum in my days as an embassy guard,

presence
verbal commands
soft empty hand techniques
hard empty hand techniques
soft PR-24 techniques
hard PR24 techniques
deadly force

Rule of thumb, whatever level of force your troublemaker is using, you are justified to be one level higher.

Pepper spray is in there too. generally somewhere between empty hand, and PR-24, but it's kind of a moving target depending on the situation.

And understanding that you can go from presence, to any level. You don't need to stop at every level. The situation dictates.

We got this expat Columbian dude guarding the door. I give him lots of respect, he just retired from the local PD and all the cops I know say he is to be feared in a scuffle and is very handy with a handgun. He tells all of us that carry where to sit and what area we are responsible for. We have drills about quarterly and square range practice most months. I'm the only one with no LE background. Its interesting and I'm carrying anyway and love to pop caps, so I look at it like free gun school. kinda sorta

Just do it like they do in the old westerns . . . shoot the gun out of the perp's hand.

I'd have to disagree with a PR-24 simply because you can't conceal that. But I'd say a collapsible baton would be a good idea.