If emts cant revive them in the ambulance. Just adios, MF.

It's just a friggen cold. What is all the fuss about?

Just the flu, too.

Doesn't fit the agenda.... go home take an aspirin call in the morning... LOL

You're beginnin ta come around.

Walk towards the light.

Because it's not. It's Covid-19 and is still at least 6 times deadlier than the flu, more so for the elderly or those with higher risk factors. It's irresponsible to behave otherwise.

Cut and paste from SIJMU.com?

Canadian;
Start doing your own research. Start by looking at all the "epidemics" for the past say,, 100 years??
Yea it's deadly. so is driving a car. Stay on the left side of Canada.

My god some of these guys need to check the wife's purse and see if their balls are in there.....

Yep. The rule now is ‘no pulse, don’t bring em’ to the ER.’
1200 bed hospitals up there that normally do everything from open heart surgery to renal transplants aren’t doing any of that now. They’re only taking care of Covid-19 patients. Everybody else is SOL.

Start doing yours on the contagion with Co virus.

Even you might learn something.

Don’t they go to the Comfort?

The city is so overwhelmed by the cold virus, that it only has 3 patients on it.

Yup. All one had to do to make this nothing to be concerned about, is to put the word “just” in front.

Just a bad cold.

Just a bad flu.

Sorry, lots of people will be just dead.

There's some disagreement in the medical community regarding CPR.

The majority don't think it should be done, at all, in most circumstances.

Young and in a car wreck, OK.

98 years old and seized up, nope.

Let people die with dignity, rather than beatin the shat outta em whilst forcin air down their throat.

Is that because bringing them to the Covid contaminated ER's is a death sentence?
Or is it because the the Chinese virus gets priority?
Or maybe certain people are worth more than others?

Fub,

Which category are you in....Crush your chest and hose your throat? Or walk away saying bye Felicia? 😎

I saw a man get shocked with a defibrillator 11 times, while being bagged and having that machine doing compressions. If anyone ever gets the chance to watch that, don't.

I came up on a pedestrian hit by mini van. I had all my certs at the time, she got knocked clean into a parking lot. 2 other guys and a lady from a business got to her ASAP before I could unbuckle they did look listen and feel and started compressions.

Thought I might be joining in as relief. Man she was a toast, lost cause.

Them doing compressions, she sounded like a barrel full of Lincoln logs. Mmm, mm.

Fire dept got there took over.

You’ve got such a wonderful way with words.

Source?

Ask Jag for a source?

You gotta be crazy.

You're gonna get a 3 hour video, with the answer at 2:59:30.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost...ardiac-arrest-patients-to-hospitals/amp/

IF they don't have a pulse.....they're already phuggin dead.

Your wife or kid in cardiac arrest...you OK with calling them at the scene and not even working it further...?

Sure. Same as when docs stop a heart then restart it to get things back into the correct rhythm. Just stop it and,,,fugg it, walk away. They’re dead.

Thanks.

Apples and oranges. Bypass surgery, the pipes aren't clogged when you restart the pump.

Do you even know what the survival rate is for a victim who falls in public from a heart attack, and the pump stops?

Do you even know how many minutes it is before the brain is permanently damaged, like vegetable, from no blood flow?

Do you know the average time it takes for an ambulance to arrive, while the pump is idle?

You have no clue, as always.

If I remember off the top of my head, if the pump stops while you are out on the street....6% survival rate. They drag them to the hospital, so the criminal Industrial medical complex can build a ticket (charge insurance or the estate) tens of thousands of DOLLARS.

That’s actually pretty funny.
And the answer is going to be ...
Q!

Here’s the memo.
http://www.nycremsco.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Press-Release-04-02-2020-Official.pdf

Thank goodness that you’re here. We’re saved now, all is well.

“Off the top of your head”. Heh. Pretty funny.

At least I know what I'm talking about, versus you bloviating, and trying to look like you know what you are talking about.

Troll who refuses to post a picture, knowing it would expose him as a false prophet...Nothing ever to see or read from this retard.

😎

At least I know what I'm talking about, versus you bloviating, and trying to look like you know what you are talking about.

[/quote


Ohhh, yeah, you’re a real heavy hitter,,,,minus pictures and credentials.

But, please regale us with your vast knowledge.]

Intelligent people recognize other intelligent people through their writing. You are obviously too stupid to realize that fact. Pictures are not needed to prove intelligence.

I'm betting your an expert when it comes to fellatio

Who are these “intelligent people” you continually refer to? Name the members you know who roll in the horse shît you spew, here.

Over 50 pages of you being handled, bitch slapped, made to cry, and sent to you room kicking and screaming, running in circles in your bedroom, huff’n your computer nerd awards against your wall and yet....

NOT ONE SINGLE MEMBER CAME OUT AND POSTED ANYTHING TO PROVIDE LEGITIMACY TO YOUR NAMESAKE HERE...NOT ONE!

I handled you like I’ve done with several smart-assed drunktards at bars, parties, and social gatherings. Since you’re virtual, I’m allowing you to still have a straight nose, teeth, and being able to breathe.

In person, you wouldn’t find yourself ever trying to stand in front on me acting hard....That’s a fact my little pet.

Show us all your supporters...We’ll wait, like usual - for nothing from you. 😎

This is actually Irony.

The Only thing people know how to do in New York is suing people so someone should sue someone.

An obvious sexual fantasy.

Yeah, I've heard from an ambulance dude over here that it's almost the norm for a patient that they resuscitate from a heart attack, where the heart stops, will not last all that long afterwards even if they make it to hospital. The pipes are blocked and the heart is damaged and there's no quick fix for that.

6%? Uhh-huh, Yeah.

Nah.

Sorry. Don't buy your schit, Eelsucker91..

https://cpr.heart.org/en/resources/cpr-facts-and-stats

I just know that I hope that neither myself or anyone in my family has to be hospitalized right now. If I had a heart attack, I'd certainly want everyone possible done for me in order to save my life. The scary thing is that is a heart attack didn't get you, going to the hospital and getting corona might.

The Navy hospital ships are for non-Wuhan Plague patients.

You mean like the death panels that that made the decision to kill your papa and your sissy.

You sure are an ignorant basturd.

Would like to see the article referenced in the OP. But for perspective:

1) You don't start CPR until the patient is ALREADY clinically dead. No Pulse. No respiration.
2) 15 years of rural EMS. 0 for 23 on CPR saves, personally. As stated above, CPR survivability is about 4% to 5%. Not 99% like Hollyweird...
3) If you have more patients than you can treat, do you want to consume an ER bed and resources with a 50% survivability patient ? Or a <5% survivability patient ?

Anyone who has spent any time in the Emergency Services business has practiced / trained for "Mass Casualty" events. How to triage, care for, and save as many lives as possible when you can't save them all. Typical scenario is school bus, mass shooting, air crash, etc...

Folks, we are rapidly approaching a "Mass Casualty" event with Covid 19. It ain't the fight we chose. But, it is the fight we get. The middle of a battle is not the time/place to argue over how we should have trained or prepared. That boat has sailed. Now is the time to do the best we can with the training and preparation that we have in place. We can kick dirt at each other about how to do better next time on the other side during the After Action Report. We are in battle. We need to close ranks and act like it.

I agree 100%. But, the problem is that there are too many fools out there who still believe it's just a plot by the Democrats and the media to make Trump look bad.

They will blame President Trump. Dems are great at creating problems and shifting blame. Their bread and butter is victim-hood.
Really the local government and certainly the state regulates the hospitals.

If your planning on having a heart attack, best put it off for a while!

King Baby has spoken.

Yet another foot stomping, off the rails, hissy fit. Didn’t take long.

King Baby.

"taken" to ER.

In NM we were given similar orders and it is because of limited PPE and how many people are involved in a code in a hospital setting.

Code protocols have have changed drastically here for first responders and assume they have/will everywhere.

I have worked hundreds of heart attacks in the field, as a paramedic.
And I worked hundreds more in the ER, as my EMS was hospital based.

To an EMT this announcement is no big deal. The paramedics are working the code in the house. They have just as good a heart monitor and the same drugs as the ER.
If the EMTs administer drugs and have performed endotrachial intubation and oxygen, and defibrillate the patient 3 or 4 times, takes about 15 minutes, and if the heart has not restarted by then, the patient is dead. I have performed over 100 endotrachial intubations.
The chance of a recovery in the ER, after the code has been worked unsuccessfully in the field, is around zero.

We were not allowed to pronounce a patient dead so the hundreds of codes I worked at home, every single one was transported to the ER. Yes 8 or 10 of those were "saved." The heart began beating again in the ER. And the patient was taken up to ICU where they "lived" for another week, never regained consciousness [the brain was shot anyway] ran up a $200,000 hospital bill, and then they officially, and mercifully, died.

Of all those codes we worked in the field and then transported to the ER to get worked some more, none of them recovered to where they walked out of the hospital.

Us cynical medics sometimes thought that they worked those codes so hard in the ER only if the patient had good insurance so the hospital could run up a good ICU bill, prior to the trip to the graveyard.
We medics viewed CPR as "abuse of a corpse." Today, as a civilian, if I saw a 65 year old guy keel over at the grocery store and I felt for a pulse and there was none, I am going to keep my mouth shut and walk on by. His heart stopped because he has an old, diseased heart. He is dead.

If I saw a lineman get electrocuted, or if I saw a kid drown in the river, and the heart stopped, I would do CPR. This patient is young and has a healthy heart, CPR might possibly save them and return them to a normal life.

I hope I die that way. I don’t want to die in some damn old folks home wondering why none of my kin comes to see me!

Sounds like the Triage that we were so badly trying to prevent, is happening now by verdict. Ironic...

*you’re

Here, they are laying off ER and hospital medial and support staff. Just nothing for them to do. Despite the stories of bodies all over the place. No elective surgery, but all emergencies welcome.

They’ve got a similar protocol in place up here too, if the covid starts runnin rampant. Not a good time to get hurt or sick...

Sounds like it’s all working according to the plan.

Good post, Orion.

Antlers posted a link to the story above.

I told the kids dontch’all be out there jumpin on that trampoline and sheeit, all we got is ace bandage and that purple spray paint for the horses

Far as I know that stuff is only in NY city, which was hit so hard because both DeBlasio and the city health commissioner didn't start warning people when they should have. I'm sure that EMT's in NYC will bring certain heart attack patients to the ER regardless. Especially if they happen to be filthy rich, liberal democrats who NYC seems to treat differently than the peasantry.

I’m sure thankful that I don’t live in that shiit hole

Appreciate the post. Missed the link the first time through... I am with SimonKenton, not sure how they can get away with NOT hauling them to hospital. KY requires ER doc to "call the code" and sign off date/time of death for the official death certificate. Even if the Doc just steps out to the back of the buggy and says "Yeah. He's dead." and signs off the run sheet. Maybe NY / NYC have a different protocol ?

TAKEN, ORION, TAKEN, DAMNIT, MAN, GET WITH IT.

Sheesh, suckers on here got cabin corona.

Judman, cut yer laughin and learn how to spell running.

Washington you can do it over the phone and that was before all this.

Evidently some arent aware of such unimportant little details.

I'm ok with someone drop kicking my ass a couple times, to jump start me! I'd like to be a pain in someone's else's ass for a change!

If you want to change the verb, at least be grammatically correct... TAKING...

Almost anyone that dies in a hospital, cause of death is being attributed to C_19.............cities/states get more fed funding that way.

MM

Got a link...?

I haven’t seen that, MM.

Yet.

Word of mouth from people in 3 different institutions.................no post mortems, so no other determining criteria.

Easy peasy, no real way to refute.

MM

There is a difference between a heart attack and a cardiac arrest.
It's been at least 15 years since my old department began leaving dead people at home. There is also criteria to pronounce people dead in the field not due to cardiac arrest. No need to tie up an ambulance to do it.
The American Heart Association sets the standards for advanced cardiac life support. (ACLS)

The standard while I was working was 2 rounds of cardiac drugs, shocks and CPR. If no response they are pronounced at the scene. It was weird to start leaving people but it was weird knowing you were taking a dead person to a hospital. Sometimes as was has been mentioned, a doc out on the ambo ramp smoking a cigarette would call it.

This is not news to people that have done EMS. You guys are getting sucked in by the main stream media.

No real way to confirm either, evidently.

Modern properly equipped paramedic units are equipped the same way as a hospital. If they are not responding, they are not responding. I think the only exception is cold water drowning.

Well looks like Obamacare is in play in NYC.

And they are equipped with a Paramedic with an Associates Degree as opposed to an ERMD who has spent a decade of his life perfecting his craft and has light years more knowledge and experience. Not to mention the fact that the ER/Hospital has emergency treatment adjuncts and drugs that are not available in the back of an ambulance. Not knockin’ EMS at all, but your comparison analogy is blatantly false.

As usual you have not the first fücking clue and are talking out of your ass.

1. In the county I work it was about 22% save ratio in 2018 (last posted data) for bystander cpr and 66% for witnessed arrest in presence of ems.

2. No set answer for this, average time to brain starting to die is 4-6 minutes but many people have had 10+ minute down times without oxygen that survived without brain damage.

3. In my EMS systems we average about 5 minutes to bls unit arrival which means trained cpr, basic airway and defibrillator. Als averages 8 minutes to scene.

But what do I know I’ve only got 23 years doing the job you claim to know all about.

You can go & check death certificates if you want confirmation; maybe take a trip to NYC.

MM

Or you can do it and post your findings here...as opposed to you posting “word of mouth.”

Time element involved here for the non responders?

There are protocols that vary from location to location that dictate who can “call it” when working a cardiac arrest. If someone is in asystole (flatline) we couldn’t shock based upon our medical director’s orders but paramedics could “call it” in the field when we had a patient that was “flatlined”. An MI is different than cardiac arrest and many (most ?) can recover from it assuming proper medical intervention is administered in a timely fashion.

We pronounced many people deceased while on-scene and did NOT transport them to the ER but rather we called the medical examiner and they dealt with it from there. We pronounced asystolic patients from infants that were casualties of SIDS to elderly people that went down at home to suicides to decapitations from MVA’s and everything in between. Cold water drownings were always transported because you’re not dead until you’re warm and dead.

There’s no reason to transport a flatline or someone that is obviously dead.
There’s every reason to transport an MI....

Triage can be a tough position for first responders and is almost counterintuitive to the personality of those that are EMT’s and paramedics but it’s absolutely necessary in mass casualty incidents. Working on those with a chance of survival versus wasting time on those likely to die was always a necessary but tough call. This pandemic is really just triage on a massive scale but the principles of triage don’t change just because we’re dealing with a virus instead of trauma.

Couldn't pronounce over the phone or radio telemetry?

It's not an analogy, I kept a paramedic license for 30 years. Doctors and nurses take the same ACLS class I did. I have seen them do the exact same thing in the ER that I did in the field. The results were the same. The rules changed and the docs were on board with it. It doesn't take 10 years to be trained in ACLS. If the hospitals were doing some medical study then we might bring someone in. Doctors do not have magic hands if the meds/CPR/shocks don't work after 15 minutes, they don't work. like I said. It's the doctors that write these rules and policies.

For cold water drownings? None really. Medical control would make the decision but the rule was they aren't dead until they are warm and dead. I will amend my statment to include any drowning. You never know until you clear the lungs and get oxygen circulating again.

Rapid AED intervention gives a cardiac arrest a greater chance of survival than anything else. We had one of our guys go down while jogging at a local high school. He went down 50 yards from the engine. He got put on the AED and survived. He came back to work and was the "Dead Man Walking" until he retired 3 years later. What surprised everyone was that he was a runner and was pretty lean and fit. I guess when your numbers up, it's up.

Yes, it is. It’s a comparison analogy. And it’s false. You said “Modern properly equipped paramedic units are equipped the same way as a hospital.” That’s simply not true. As I said, ER’s and hospitals have treatment adjuncts and drugs that paramedics in the back of an ambulance don’t have. And if you think that just because you take the same ACLS classes that ERMD’s take, that your knowledge and skills and experience are on par with theirs...then that’s just as big of a crock as is your assertion that the back of an ambulance “is equipped the same way as a hospital” is. Again, not knockin’ EMS...I’ve been very involved with it for well over 30 years...but paramedics ain’t ER doctors, and the back of an ambulance ain’t an ER.

Beaver10…..your brain “IS” dead.

local_dirt…..your brain “IS” dirt.

You sure do make it easy to make you look ignorant.

Good to see you’re still a dumbass.

Good grief, you are a loud-mouth creep.

Good-bye.

Hey you mentally deranged cyber-stalker troll, I never stated in my post the patient would receive bystander cpr or witnessed arrest in presence of ems.

The 6% was clearly for a person IN PUBLIC dropping, and then who knows when a 911 call would be made, and that does not guarantee the closest station rolls, if the closet station is already running a call.

You posted a "perfect" scenario in your attempt to feed your mentally sick narcissism.

Screw off idiot. You're stupid.

No pumping is 6% survival.

B-fib is around 12% survival if they get there soon enough.

Your 22% is A FLUKE when compared to the national save percentages.

And you can't refute any of my facts, and that is why you are mentally sick, and a mentally deranged cyber-stalking troll.

FACTS.....they burn YOU.

Thanks for showing everyone how mentally sick you are, cyber-stalking troll.

Go away forever you tool. Seriously not one person enjoys your company. Bye.

The only fact I see is you’re a dumbass and it’s irrefutable.

You’re a legend in your own mind BOT 🤖 boy.

During the time that I ran, we were EMT-B only. No P2 onboard. We had to call mobile medics if needed. "Calls" were by ER Doc, Flight Doc if we called Air Care to the scene, or coroner for those cases that were "obviously" DRT. May have had one or two instances where a flight nurse radio'ed their Doc / Medical Director to call one remotely if no Doc on the helicopter.

Nuff said...

Reason I ask is over the years I’ve given cpr to 3 people, two of which survived and lived on for a few years. None of the three were breathing or had discernible pulse at the time cpr was initiated.

The one that died regained a faint pulse but never regained consciousness.

I ever keel over from a heart attack or serious trauma I’d rather have a king county medic working on me to start then an er doc every time. Of course I would still want to end up in an er but the medic units here have hundreds of medications on them, their life pack is no different then the ones in the er, ive seen them perform in field operations and I’ve been in tons of situations where doctors happened to be on scene and it was a cluster. To be fair there have been a couple times when drs were on scene of something and did a fantastic job, just the far less common example. I also think that not all medics are created equal in general but certainly in different parts of the country. Far different levels of training and equipment available. I would love to hear what airway interventions an er can do for a code that a medic unit here can’t.

I should also I suppose say that not all er’s are created equal in my mind and I can think of one where every trauma doc I’ve encountered has been amazing. Several other local hospitals I’d be fine going to and feel confident in the care I would receive, but the smaller they get and less major stuff they see the less I’d want to go there if I was really having a bad day.

Okay. You are splitting hairs here.
Paramedic units are equipped the same as a hospital in regards to ACLS to treat cardiac arrests.
Our training in regards to ACLS is the same as a doctors.
The American Heart Association has determined through research and studies that a hospital can do no more to determine the outcome of a patient in unresponsive cardiac arrest than a paramedic in the field.
If a doctor wants paramedics to bring a 80 year old full arrest from a con home he can so order it. This differs from region to region but ACLS is the national standard.
Our treatment was monitored directly by a base station hospital where there was a doctor that could be consulted on any, call medical or trauma or the occasional hard head that was dying in front of us but refusing medical aid.
My 6 months of paramedic school don't compare to what schooling a doc goes through. Never said it did but I guess I have to put pertinent negatives in. That was the reason I took a giant step backwards after I delivered a patient and a treatment report up to arrival at the ED.

Thanks for the reply. It's easier to put you on ignore that way.

Uh...no. Ambulances do not have “hundreds” of different medications on them, despite your assertion. And over the decades I’ve seen many cardiac arrest victims brought in being ventilated by BVM’s because...for whatever reason, or reasons...the paramedics were unable to intubate the patient in the field. And in every instance, we were able to intubate the patient in the ER. I’ve also seen, too many times, patients brought in with ETT’s in the esophagus instead of in the trachea. Again, not bangin’ on EMS...as I’ve been very involved with it for a long time. But a paramedic is not an ERMD. And the back of an ambulance is not an ER.

We (L.A. County) were in a cricothyrotomy study for a year or so. We didn't do enough to even come to a conclusion and the 2-3 that did happen were bloody messes so we never got it a added to our field protocols. Same with peds intubation, not enough data. So hospitals here do crikes but medics do not. The conclusion was that in almost all cases we are within 20 minutes of a paramedic receiving hospital and we were just supposed to do the best we could until we could transfer care.
We were required to get a docs ID if he insisted on getting involved and usually got them to back off if their license number was going to be on record. Even when we went to their offices they backed away. A podiatrist or kidney specialist isn't always going to help if they want to be in charge. We met a young doctor on a 3 victim TC that volunteered to be an extra set of hands. He was really cool surfer doc, and thought what we were doing was really cool and decided to come hang out with us for a couple shifts and eventually switched over to emergency medicine at our trauma center.

not wading thru this thread due to the typical Campfire arguments going on...

But I do want to add, thank God and God Bless those that are EMTs and Paramedics...

Spent time doing that 40 plus years ago...life took another path tho..
If I was younger I'd go back to it...its worthwhile to our society...

Thank you folks for all you do...you don't receive the appreciation you deserve, until you've saved some individuals life.
Then the patient and family think you're the greatest people on earth...

Best regards and thank you.

There is sometimes much more to treating these patients ‘after’ their arrival to the ER than just the ACLS that was being done by EMS.

Dont have a heart attack?

Agreed. Very much.

Thats what I read.

I didn’t say ambulances had hundreds, I said medic units. I don’t know where in the country you are and maybe it’s true where you are, but that doesn’t mean it’s true everywhere. There’s a huge difference in a medic program that’s a month or two long on bankers hours and one that’s one year and basically 24/7 unless sleeping.

I’m not trying to make it sound like er’s aren’t good. My point was around here if the medics can’t get ROSC back I doubt an er could have. Other places could be very different though. It sounds like wherever you are that is true.

It’s all good. I’m sorry if I came across as being anti-EMS. I love EMS. I love taking care of patients in the field.