If you're thinking of buying a new vehicle hold on for a little while. According to info from work today they predict sales of all vehicles to be down 75% for May versus last May. Come late next month or into June the dealers will probably be ready to deal. We have been shut down for 2 weeks and the plan is for 2 more with possibly a longer shutdown to be announced next week.

They will be hurting

I've been kicking around the idea of buying a new truck but I might need to buy more toilet paper.

Been looking to buy a newer work truck for the last couple weeks, prices have yet to really drop.

Patience and cash in hand have never failed so far...

Financing is low, but high qualifying credit scores. I would think prices will go down, but remember they are not making any new cars or trucks right now so supplies will be limited if you are looking for a specific model.

2020 Chevy 2500 4x4 service body, crew cab, Duramax, here locally at a commercial dealer. Was $72,900.00 a month ago. Happened to look yesterday, $63,900.00 or best offer. Bet in 4 weeks it will be $53,900.
Im due for a new one, 2015 with 175,000 miles now. If it was a 3500 DRW service bed I'd be thinking hard.
I'll definitely be watching for one over the next couple months. Going to be done good deals soon

"Management" and I are in discussion over purchasing this bad boy.

Ditch the box and add a Hydra-Bed.

The big gas, some mud tires and a locking rear axle would be sweet IMO.


https://www.foxfordwolfpoint.com/ne...0-4X4+STYLESIDE+PICKUP-1FTRF3BN8LED50855

Pretty sweet. What the hell, they show a 7.3l diesel did they bring it back? I thought it was 6.7s these days. 7.3s were da bomb!

That's the new gas engine from Ford, the 6.7 is still the diesel option and it's a good one.


Ideally I wanted to wait a year for them to get the kinks worked out on the engine and new 10 speed transmission but our 2004 back up feed pickup is sorta fubar so......

Been thinking about replacing my '09 Tacoma in the next year or so. It's got 246 thousand miles on it, runs like a top but it ain't gonna last forever. This one was paid for the day I got it and I've been saving for the next one ever since. Might be worth my while to start looking for a new one sometime in the next few months.

I'd hold off Sam. While they aren't making inventory, I don't see demand increasing. The supply chain had to be disrupting production before the shut down with so many components coming from China. Presumably the flow of parts would be ramping us now. Then again, if the auto industry gets bailed out, who knows what that will do to the price. I'll probably replace the 2019 I bought in November, if they're dealing. I was really racking up the miles before getting locked down.

Fubar has been a theme lately.

Win win. You can haul your stockpile in your new truck.

Just traded my 13 Tundra for a 19 Silverado with Duramax. Got a really good deal. Probably could have waited some more but it was what I wanted and at a better price than I budgeted for, so why not. I was looking for a 2020 but this one was to good to pass up.

Duramax and Allison can't go wrong! Where did you find that one?

The used market will be flooded unfortunately for sellers

I'm really needing a GMC Denali DRW crew for my "Sunday goin' ta meetin'" truck. My piece of [bleep] Kodiak 6500 dumptruck took a [bleep] again today so probably be looking for something similar to trade it in on though.

Got my eye on a softail deluxe. Certainly don't need another bike in the garage, but this might be the summer to do it.

Jack, $73K?!

That better be the super pimp Chevy with coon proof locks!



Kings, whether or not the local dealer has a decent loaner on the lot will be a big factor.

And I'm being serious. Ask Jim how it goes.....grin


Are you lovin' your 6.7?

Depending on where you are, if you're some place that hasn't been locked down yet, now might be the time to strike.

Is there anywhere that hasn't been locked down?

Package deal!

Warranty could have a Dinkleberry clause, also.

Yeah there are. 9 states haven't issued stay at home orders and won't unless the federal government orders it. Then they probably won't enforce it.

The 7.3L w/ 10-speed transmission is one helluva truck!!

Do you have one? My dealer says all the local guys doing in town Trips are buying them instead of the diesel.

I went in yesterday with a serious attempt to buy a new F-150. Dealer worked via text only (dropped current F-150 off for service before opening so salesman could evaluate my potential trade)

At the end of the day, he offered me $10K below market for my trade, and only knocked $2K off the MSRP for the new truck.

I texted him back that I’d come back later for the Chapter 11 auction.

It's a beast. I can't believe how well it handles the weight. I'm pulling a heavily loaded down 36' enclosed gooseneck, a 1000 miles each way. I'm a life long, third generation Chevy/GMC guy—I still have an 07 LBZ Duramax and a 2016 LML Duramax High Country. This Ford is awesome. I won't be going back to GM.

JackMt-You should check the Fords out. There are a few annoying dings and dongs, and the fücking lights—every fücking light on the truck, turns on every time you open the door. I need to get a PC laptop and FORSCAN and tweak theses settings. The truck pulls and brakes like a beast. I'm more than halfway through the factory Goodyears.

I had a little snafu in a flash blizzard near Syracuse, NY. A car lost control, spinning across both lanes from guard rail to guard rail. It ricocheted off the left guard rail to start spinning back across the lanes. I moved over to about 2 feet off the right hand guard rail. I was pulling a full load. The guy was coming right at me, but there was nothing I could do. This was all at 45-50MPH. He hit me in front of the left front tire. It was nearly head on. I was sure he was going to knock me into the guard rail. He then spun and hit me in the rear wheel and bedside/fender on the same side. In the mirror I say him bounce across the interstate, guard rail to guard rail two more times. The truck suffered $7K in damage that I've yet to get fixed. It's all cosmetic and very minor given the circumstances. The aluminum bodies are rugged.

These Fords are for real.

My 2019 F350 Diesel gets 14.5mpg around town and on short highway trips.

Pulling a 36' Enclosed gooseneck at max cap. I average 11.2 doing 68-70 mph.

Diesel fuel is more expensive and the option is another ~$10K out of the gate. For what I'm doing, I've got 5 big trailers, I like the diesel. I can see how the big gasser will be very popular.

Ah.. missed that. That'll have some serious grunt especially with 10 speeds to work with...

Buddy bought a f550 crew, 6.7L, 4x4 with 11' utility bed. It has me thinking. I drove a 2019 Ford last Dec. Looking for a tax break but just couldn't do it. My only Ford was a 1988 f250 when I was 20yo. 5sp manual and 302, both shot at just over 100,000. Been GM products ever since. Hard habit to break.

If Toyota would just bring a Tundra 2500/3500 to market.....dually crew preferably. Id never look back.

I believe the gasser trend is what provoked the 7.3 gas option. It doesn’t always pencil out like you say for certain fleets/small business owners.

The F350 with a 6.7 is an awesome combo. We've had no major issues with the engine or 'old' six speed transmission.


Dump the emissions and they rip.....



But under warranty leave as is.

I doubt it. The factories are shut down and the automakers are waiting on their bailouts while they make a bunch of ventilators.

Anybody running a new GM 6.6 gasser? Can't believe the idiots ditched the proven 6.0. I rate it up there with the 350 for sentimental attachment.

That’s badass Sam!!!

Be a great feed truck! But I could never bring myself to buy another single cab. 🤠

What doesn’t pencil out like what?

All the emissions shït made these diesels expensive to build, buy, warranty, service and maintain. The emissions shït also undermined fuel efficiency. My tuned and deleted 07 LBZ is a monster and gets 23 around town if you don’t spin the wheels.

I don’t think there’s any support for this after the big EPA crack down last year. PM me details if I’m wrong—I’d love to be wrong.

Deals were much better in March. Now dealers have less inventory and most are closed. Those that are open have to make more money on each unit since they aren't selling as many. I visit a couple different car and truck forums and there are a lot of unhappy people thinking they would snag the bargain of the century this month and it aint gonna happen.

Yes, the Antarctic.

If this schitt show lasts another month or two, that will change and there will be deals to be had.

Im agreeing with you that the gas engine will be popular. Not everybody can afford or need the diesel.

It would have to be a custom job.


If trading all the time I wouldn't consider it.

The real Ford gasser deal will be a used 6.2.

Gas or Diesel? Depends on what you need to pull. Diesel for myself, and I'm not going back.

Touche'.

Wow. He doesn’t sound too motivated.

Planning on getting a new truck this summer or fall.

Anywhere they use salt, a big gasser makes even more sense in GM as they seem to be designed to rot out in 6 years.

I’ve heard of premature GM rusting .

Right? I couldn't believe the arrogance in the converation.... when I bought the current truck, (in 2016), the salesman was straight up with me- gave me a sell price 10K below sticker. I was honest with him and said i'd only buy at a price better than my X-plan pricing, and he came at me with his best offer (which was much better than X plan). We shook hands and I was happy. This time, The joker tried to talk me down from MSRP plus dealer markup... fully knowing that I had X plan pricing at 10K less than MSRP. He was dumb. I'm not buying this last years (2019) truck for MSRP, nor will I accept $14000 for my current F-150 in trade. These Jokers have to accecpt the new economy.

Corrosion on a well cared for 6 month old truck and GM’s response to it is what motivated me to look at Ford. I never would have considered it otherwise.

Thinking of buying an "older truck", with VENT WINDOWS...

That shït wouldn’t fly in the old economy.

'19 Diesel

For an extra $700 you can have a '19 Crew with a diesel.......

Don't see how. Factorys will remain closed and inventory will be even lower. Any great deals will be buying used from private sellers trying to get out from underneath their loans.

Used car lots already dropping prices

Sammo, you could save yourself $1K and get a crew cab 7.3 Gasser in Bismarck:

7.3 Crew

Clay, I want a short turning radius, for driving in pens, river bottom trees, pulling a stock trailer around washouts, off-road maneuverability ...

Single rear wheel is good, so tired of DRW and mud.

I get what you're going for, but $48K for a Std Cab XLT, YE-OUCH!!!!

The fubar '04 would be going in on trade. All issues made known, private sale I'm thinking $4-5k, maybe $7-8k on a trade for a new pickup.

I know you said no dually, but, this is a LOT more truck for $2K less:

F550

What I'm trying to get at is $48K for that std cab truck is flipping NUTZ!!!!!

I tend to agree.

I didn’t know they even made regular cab pickups anymore. That looks like it would be a good one.

A local radio show does a couple hours on Saturday mornings about nothing but used autos especially their values. He said the biggest value for savings right now by a good margin is “large diesel trucks” .

With double the rear tires you get triple the mud! I know exactly what you're saying especially when you're turning around in tight spaces all the time.

Yep, my '11 6.7L Ford Crew w/160K Mi is probably worth under $20K on trade and is over $50K to replace like-for-like.

Why didn't it hold its value better. Last week I sold a 06 Chevy HD 2500, duramax, with 6 speed Allison , 96,400 miles! I got 22,500 cash for it. 4door ,short box! Are you talking trade in or private party price!

The 06 duramax is already a 1 year classic that everyone wants. Was it 4x4, hell of a price if it was.

I have an 06 duramax 4x4 with 250,000 and beat to hell, people want to buy it all the time, no way I'm letting it go.

Kent

Low mileage diesels from that period are in high demand since they don’t have NEAR as much emissions especially a Duramax or a Cummins. A Ford 6.0 is worth less.
Plus a trade in will never or rarely be a good deal unless you bought it really right .

Because you had a pre-DPF/DEF truck with very low miles.

I had two the one i sold was 4x4, as is the one i kept! Both 06, one is my personal truck, the other was my business truck. I bought the business truck in 08 used for 27500. No one was buying because of the economy! They were the first Chevy trucks I owned. I was always a Ford guy! Would never go back! After being screwed on a 6.0 Ford, they can keep there trucks.

Thirsty, my F-150 Crew Cab works just fine, so I'm not in the market for anything new. That said as a starting number to dicker with I usually see percentages in the low 20's off MSRP, but there is an outfit out of Orlando (Napleton Automotive) that always has up to 25% off on Ram trucks. Every so often they were advertising up to 30% off MSRP. That is the most off that I've ever seen in a TV commercial. I wanted to get a picture of that off the TV, but it comes up quick and I was never been fast enough.

Nice! bought mine new for pulling tractors and equipment for work. They are wanted because the engines were upgraded over the 05 and don't have the smog requirements of 07, it's said they are the best year made.

Kent

how much better do you think it can get besides 0% for 84 months?

They cost what they cost. The manufacturers might throw another $1500-2000 on rebates. The dealer markup is fixed and its not much. About $500-800 on cars and $2-4k on most trucks. Dealers make their money in service and financing not sales.

Your best deals are probably right now while they are trying to make something happen and inventory is good. in another month or so inventory will start getting low. factories have been slowed for a month and idle for two weeks already.

Buy american,not toyota,Nissan,honda!

Good point, demand is poor, but new auto builds are well off also. They ain’t gonna give them away.

I bought a new Buick today over the internet from a dealer I bought my 2018 truck from, kinda strange not doing this in person. I financed part of price though my credit union at 2.99% and it was cheaper than the the 0% GM financing. With the GM plan I would had to give up a $3500 rebate. At 2.99% , I would be out $1200 on interest if I don't pay it off early. The bottom line is the bottom line. They are going to deliver it to my house next week, a 120 mile drive. There was a $9880 mark down off of sticker price on a $28000 stickered car. The salesman said that they usually sold around 1000 vehicles a month, they are selling about 500 this month. I've been watching on the internet and saw the markdowns two days ago. Most of the time they have about 500 Buick SUVs on the lot, down to a little over a 100 now and none coming in. They started selling an Encore unit with a CVT and three cylinder this year. Thought I would go ahead and get a 2020 model with six speed automatic while they are still available. Not sure I'm ready for a SUV with a CVT. Had one in a small Sentra and it was alright, not sure about a bigger car with one yet.

It’s the 06 and 07 Classic that have the LBZ Code Duramax. I have a tuned 07 Classic. It’s all PPE (Pacific Performance Engineering) and a beast. I’ve got the bed off, it needs brake lines, fuel lines, frame cross members, etc. It’s a SRW truck that I put a DRW suspension on (overload spring packs with frame perches, solid front and rear sway bars). I should probably find a nice southern or west cost truck that needs an engine. I took good care of it, but then salt just caught up with us.

i personally would wait a few years for the new ford 7.3/10 speed to get some road time. seems like a good combo but you never know. i just wish my '15 f250 with the 6.2 gasser got better mileage. 10.2 mpg sucks.

My Toyota was built in San Antonio, Texas. Last time I checked, Texas is one of the 50 states of These United States of America.

The Chevy Colorado I was looking at was built in Mexico...

I’m told the 6.7 diesels get piss poor mileage as well. So really no current 3/4-1 ton Ford (or any other make for that matter) gets any mileage, no point in worrying about it. And gas is always cheaper than diesel anymore, which didn’t used to be the case. When I was a kid a big argument for Diesel engines in pickups was the economy and cheap fuel. The early ford and Chevy diesels couldn’t pull for chit, big block gassers would run off and leave them. Diesel pickups didn’t really take off for towing heavy until Dodge started putting the 5.9 Cummins in theirs around 1990. Nowadays the Diesel engines in pickups are approaching Big truck HP and torque, economy is mostly out the door. With the higher purchase price for Diesel engine equipped pickups and the emissions BS required on the engines, it’s gotten to the point where you should really only buy a diesel if you really do need the heavy towing performance. Which of course half the people buying them don’t really need.


If that 7.3/10spd combo ends up with towing performance that’s anything like the 6.7 powerstroke, it may be a attractive option for many who are looking for an alternative to Diesels..

I own a 2019 CC 4WD with the 6.2 and 4:30 gears. I drive pretty conservative and average 14-15 consistency when not towing. Truck has tons of power and is rated to tow 14,000. It does a much better job than the previous 7.3 Ford diesel I owned and fuel is $.50 a gallon less.

Well not in the market at this time but something's never change at the end of a month from the 25th to the 31 the auto dealers have the " we need to pay our Bill's incentive for good out the door deals". Buy one in the front of the month you PAY more. Good luck all MB

interesting. i would be ok with 14-15. all my driving is around town here in hilly western PA. i've never measured it on the highway.

No one has to worry about TrueGrit Farms ever buying another Chevrolet. I bought a new 2006 4x4 diesel dually and it was the most expensive truck maintenance wise that I ever owned. Replaced all the steering components twice, injectors, water pump, power steering lines, steering pump, and 10+ u joints which happened to be the same exact u joint as in my 1/2 ton 1980 Chevy Blazer, 4 front hub - wheel assemblies. Plus a whole bunch of routine wear items. And the worse part is we do all our own wrenching and the water pump and power steering set up is ridiculously time consuming.
I drive the dreaded 6.0 powerstroke, it's a F350 4x4 King Ranch that I bought blowed up. Spent $6k on heads, injectors, turbo, turning, deletes and a few other goodies. The only thing I don't like about the truck is the fuel mileage 14mpg on the highway but I blame some of that on the 4.10 gears. I feel like the 05-07 diesel Ford 4x4 is the best and cheapest truck out there, but it requires a little work to get it right.

I went the Toyota Tundra route.

Limited Double cab 4X4 TRD Tundra...

Should be here in May...

And I don’t have to worry about the Ford F-250 Death Wobble

You spent more on the heads, than all the repairs my two 06's needed since I purchased them! Some just have better luck than others I quess!

We work our vehicles but don't overly abuse them besides towing over weight. My son missed a turn and totalled the 06 Chevy truck a few years ago and the insurance company gave me $25k and we kept the bale bed.

That’s a good looking truck!

I have the 20 year old version. Wonder if an unemployment check would cover the payment?

I couldn't buy a Ford 7.3/10spd until they get some time to prove themselves. Ford has committed so many `Big Gas Engine Sins' over the years that I couldn't trust them.

I really doubt a gas engine could have the torque of a diesel. My 14 Duramax has 396HP and 800 foot pound's of torque. I looked at the Ford 7.3 specs, 430 HP and 475 foot pounds of torque. Not even close. I traded an 06 Duramax with an LBZ in 11, had 65K on it got 23K from the dealer. I believe that I paid 27K for it. Thinking back I should have kept it.

When Toyota moved Tundra production from Indiana to Texas, the new plant in San Antonio was built with the production path wide enough to accommodate a DRW vehicle. Everyone was hopeful. But alas, never materialized.

What pushed me to opt out of Ford —

the 5.0 liter has oil consumption problems even since they went to alum. Skirt pistons with weird coatings.

If you ask any Ford man if they would buy a Eco-boost with 145k on the motor... every single one of them says NOPE...


The tundra is old school, and gets the mileage to boot... but they are pretty darn bullet proof.

Hey which Ford truck is it the spark plugs snap off when you change them?
Oh and the Fords you have to pull the cab to work on the motor?
Them Fords are great.... lmao

One thing about Ford owners they are as loyal as union Democrats..... crazy

If you buy a new truck every 3-5 years Fords are fine.

My Tacoma is a 2007, so I don’t fall into that bracket..

I bet it won't...

Really? That's weird.. Over the last few days on the highways I've seen at least a half-dozen that I know date to '72-'74.. Somehow (hard to believe I know) they're till running!!! WHO'da thunk it???

Y'all can bash Fords all ya wanna, but most of us who own 'em do so because at one time or another we made the mistake of trying GM.. BTDT - and never again..

Ordered this back in early Jan... Picked it up a month ago.. It's OK, Chevy owners - you can drool now...

I grew up ford, and lived next to some Chevy plants...

I’ve had. (F-100’s / F-150’s)

69, 71, 73, 76, 79.. My Dad had an 82 that came with plastic cylinder break inserts..

God help me I had a late 80’s dodge Dakota...


then a T-100, and a Tacoma..

Super duties have been good for a long while.. and still are - but they are heavier than what i need.

Hey Lee, is that one of those 6.0 diesels? those things were great....... hahahahahha

I had a 6.0... Keep in mind that one was an IH engine - not from Ford.. It worked fine.. Had it seven years before I got the first 6.7... The worst motor IH every built for Ford was that pos 6.4L... You should try that 6.7L - you'll fight your inhibitions for months before you give in and buy one - but then your friends will disown ya.....

For my heavy work I went Ram with the Cummins. One look under the hood of the Ford scared me, what a quagmire of hoses etc.... I can actually see the engine on my Ram.
For medium duty I have a Chevy 2500 with a 6.0 gas, a proven simple bulletproof workhorse. And it doesn't cost $700 to change the spark plugs...

Much of that quagmire is due to the reversed exhaust flow coming out the top and greatly shortening the distance exhaust must travel to spool up the turbo. That said, throttle response is "gas-like" as a result.

And your toyota helped feed the japs not Americans. You helped american economy when you bought the colorado.
Funny they make stupid excuses to buy that junk.makes me sick to see a old veteran riding around in a Toyota.

Nice truck.

Wait....Blackfart said gunsmiths barely make a living wage, himself included.

He's right... It's my WIFE who makes the big bux...

But she retires in 3 years - ergo, this is my LAST new truck..

I bought a 06 Duramax because I blew my 2003 Ford 6.0 up and needed a truck. My brother bought a 2009 Ford 6.4 and it had wiring gremlins and 10 mpg. So I bought a 2011 Ram 3500 4x4 good truck, besides emission, a 2013 Ram 3500 4x4 good truck besides emissions, deleted it and my son still drives it daily 248k miles and very little problems, one front hub? Now I drive a 2006 Ford F350 4x4 with a 6.0, no emission problems or any other problems. I like Ford trucks but don't want a new diesel truck of any brand, the EPA has ruined them all.

They won't have enough truck totow the repos or enough lots to store the fleets of lease turn overs.

You do know Toyotas are made in the US right? Other than that they're just a multi national company like the rest of them.

Every single problem with the 6.4 can be traced back to the emissions equipment. The diesel for the DPF is injected into the back two cylinders on the exhaust stroke, some of it washes down the walls, diluting the oil, and messing up bearings and rocker arms. Also, Ford was recommending very long oil change intervals. Once that crap is dealt with, the 6.4 is just as reliable as any other modern diesel. One of my buddies is a farmer and he's put almost 300 K miles on his with no problems. Mine was deleted at about 65K miles when I got it and the dealership I got it from had records for semi-synthetic oil changes every 5K miles. I had a mechanic go through it with a fine tooth comb and it hadn't suffered any damage so I bought it. The DOC and DPF went safely into the barn, I put on a straight pipe, a DPF-R+ tuner with a pretty mild tune that ignores all the emissions programming, and a coolant filter. It pulls a 16K lb. equipment trailer and my toy hauler RV all summer. This thing makes so much power it is scary, and gets about 10 MPG pulling the RV. I registered it as a commercial motor vehicle under my own DOT number so no emissions checks.

I have been intrigued by the new Ford 7.3L gasser. My 6.4 makes double the torque, but it isn't going to last forever. According to the youtube crowd, there is a ton of power potential with that 7.3L gas, and the ten-speed tranny is evidently a jewel. That may well be my next rig.

Most problems with any engine can be caused by the gov't-mandated emissions crap.. Problem is, you had to spend a bunch of bux to get rid of it in order to have it work right.. It was still a guzzler though; friend of mine bought one and the best he could get was about 10 mpg.. And if the emissions crap is removed the warranty's void.. Lose an engine and bring a very large check to obtain a new one..

The farm I work for bought a used F-350 SRW with the 6.4.. If I would have known ahead of time that's what he was looking for I would have warned him to RUN away from it.. Long story short - he had it about six months and the engine took a dump.. Twelve grand later, he got it back. Within six months he noted the oil level was higher than it should. (Oh-oh).. Traded it immediately for a Dodge Ram with the Cummins.. So far - so good..

The new 6.7 in my previous '17 pulled my 19,000# 5th wheel easily enough and averaged about 9 mpg (camper tries to stop a lot of wind.. ). I've also heard good things about the 7.3 gas engine.. For those pulling trailers only a couple/three times/year it should be fine.. But I wonder what the gas mileage is when towing?

I'll be hooking up my camper in two weeks for a 4-day run to a campground in SW Wisconsin just to get away for a bit.. I can't wait to see how this new truck handles the load with the better gears and new 10-sp trans...

Everyone is doing zero percent financing on half tons but I am holding out for that deal in a 3/4 ton or 1 ton.

been watching fords, even checked internet for GM deals yesterday, didn't see anything great.

I was hoping to find a good deal on my birthday.


This could be a very long birthday.

I called our local Ford dealer yesterday and informed him that we were gonna hold off on buying the pickup. Cattle are at what, 10 year lows(?), and this virus crap could be linkering and hurting the market for who knows how long.


That and my dad wants to buy a matching set of mid 1990's Ford(gasp) single axle farm trucks for hauling seed wheat. Local owner, they have always been shedded, etc...


And if there was a better made pickup than the F350 that's what we'd be using for work.

I just purchased a ‘96 F-250 with 351engine. Using it for the farm and my sons lawn business. The kids were intrigued with the “vent windows”. I told them “no need for a/c with those. Working good so far.

I've been looking for a while and found this one in Wyoming the end of March. It was driven a little by the dealer and I ended up paying about 11% less than sticker. I put $500 down and financed the rest for 84 months at 0% interest. The cash I was going to spend is now in the market so depending on how the market does I may or may not have got a great deal. We took it for a test run to southern Utah last week