Yep.

A lot of gun people took Massod Ayoob seroiusly - I don't know how many years ago.

You gotta problem with that?

No one is infallible, except for me, but I agree with Ayoob in this case.

I certainly wouldn't seriously take his advice on a hairpiece.

I never did take him seriously.

The self-appointed self-defense expert.

I think Kyle Rittenhouse has more gunfight experience than "mas" does.

😂

I agreed with his statements in the above clip. I sometimes agree and sometimes disagree with him.

I remember reading an article by Ayoob several years back in which he recommended carrying an absurd number of weapons and spare mags, flashlights, pepper spray ect for what I consider to be way over the top daily carry.

Any time AyBoob says something accurate, you can rest assured he learned it from somebody else.

LOL

He reads a lot...

I like his articles, and have read several of his books. No expert is perfect, but I find his writings and videos informative.

Yep….I agree also! memtb

He's weird, but he knows his stuff. Been studying, compiling data from shootouts most of his adult life.

I don't know where or who to get better data from.

Wiki says his nickname is "the badass of self defense." So there ya go.

I would bet that Ayoob knows more about self defense than anyone here. He has testified in court many times on the use of deadly force and taught many many police officers about the laws dealing with self defense.

I stopped by Ray Chapman's place in Hallsville, MO, one time, and it happened to be when Ayoob was teaching a class to some Marines. He didn't want me around (I might learn his "secrets" or something). I was already a pretty fair IPSC shooter, so I moved on, but it kinda struck me that he was a "Legend in his own Mind", especially when I checked his classification scores with USPSA. He was in the same class I was (B), and my averages were better than his.
He might have some experience in court, but he was just another shooter from then on, to me at least. He's certainly an arrogant little prick.

Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.
He's a teacher.

I like Mas. May not agree with everything but that's OK too.

Pretty sure his law enforcement credentials are mostly honorary. He was a reserve officer for some small town and in charge of training.

I believe that's true of most people. Fact of the matter the vast majority of us have changed our opinions on various things in the last 30 or 40 years. I expect he has too on many things. He's still worth listening to. Then decide for yourself, if that fits into your particular situation.

Viking: Wearing a horrific and ridiculous rug like that I would NOT take a single word of his utterances seriously!
PERIOD!
No matter who he may be.
Sheesh.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Get real.

AyBoob's bullschit is well documented. The audience he still has is the audience that never tried learning.

The guy is a fugking clown.

He's a boomer with a boomer fan-base. Just take it easy on us boomers as we exit the stage and give it over to the Gen X & Millenials; God help us!

LOL

No kidding. Lol.

Ayoob's reserve status would depend whether or not he was a sworn Reserve officer/deputy who attended a POST Academy, or if he were an "auxiliary" officer, not sworn and unable to perform regular law enforcement duties. I know that some departments utilize auxiliary officers and others departments have sworn Reserve officers, POST certified, who while on duty, have full law enforcement authority just as regular or full time officers.

I have no idea what Ayoob's status was. I remember he was with some department back East somewhere, but can't remember the name of the city.

FWIW.

L.W.

No.

I think he keeps an H&K USP under there.

Steven Seagal is more of a cop than this clown.

And Steven Seagal is not a cop. LOL

TFF.

I like his writing.

I don't take the videos or recommendations as gospel. The stories and articles detailing cases are interesting and entertaining. Some of the gun articles are interesting also, but not all of them.

Uh bullchit

He sells fear.

He makes lots of money doing what he does. Sounds like a lot of people here should be doing the same thing based on responses.

I cant get over that hairpiece...

In my time in the military, I learned tactics from people who had never been in a fight but may have learned from people who had. Were they wrong to teach me?

I think I saw some nice photos taken by Ayoob in a gun magazine years ago.

Apparently.

The 'Fire's village idiot calling anyone a clown, now that's really funny !

That’s really doubtful.

AyBoob grossly misrepresented himself for decades.

Get real.

Remember when you claimed to be a gunsmith?

LOL

I watched the video and don't have an objection to the main thesis, but was wondering; is it even worse if you point a gun filled with handloads at someone? He wasn't really clear on that point.

Didn't watch THIS video, but have watched a few of his others. He seems quite full of himself. He is, or was, a cop in NH (I believe). I'll cut him slack for his public service, but I don't seek out his videos.

He was on the books as a PT copper in Grantham (y'all can look the Town up).
He started his career well before I did (about two decades), and I've yet to find a real copper with anything positive to say.

George

He's never been a cop.

He's completely full of schit and if Bill Wilson associates with him I'd never buy anything Bill Wilson.

The video in the OP is 9:00+ of horse schit.

LMAO, hell no, not even a no handgun shooting chithead like myself!

There are a few people in this conversation trying to tell y'all something and you aren't listening.

He managed to squeeze "booger hooker on the bang switch" into that moronic monologue.

That's gotta be good for a few thousand Boomer "likes."

LOL

Stop making fun of us boomers we aren't stupid and I thought the booger hooked was a piss poor choice of words

It's a generic term.

Not applicable to all.

I have mixed feelings about Ayoob. I believe he has a good heart and means well. His legal advice is mostly correct (in my opinion), but "mostly" correct legal advice can be harmful. Very harmful. It's akin to a submarine that is "mostly" free of holes.

As for the video in the OP, contrary to Ayoob's assertions, you do not necessarily commit "felony aggravated assault" or any assault if you mistakenly point your gun at somebody who is a good guy. In my home state we don't even have a crime called "felony aggravated assault," and there is case law on point that contradicts his other conclusions regarding assault vs simple brandishing (or "unlawful display of a weapon" as we call it here).

He warns us to be wary of "stuff you'll hear on the internet," yet he is the embodiment of that which he warns against--a guy saying wrong "stuff on the internet!" He contends his analysis is correct for all 50 states, but it isn't. It might be correct in some states, but there's no way to know which ones by simply listening to him.

Get your legal advice from: (1) an attorney, (2) licensed in your home state, (3) who has experience in the area of law in which you seek help.

Yep. Great assessment. If you get your Legal Advice from the Internet, your probably going to get what you deserved for being a dumbass.
I know most here love to run down lawyers. But having a really good one when you need one is priceless.

I do not find any fault in what the guy is saying.

Not surprising

I find his legal advice to be laughable.

At best.

He’s a fraud. His heart is not, and never has been, in the right place.

Is he the one that started that never use your own reloads in a defense shooting because the prosecutor will accuse you of fashioning ultra extra deadly man killer ammo?

Yes

You don’t own any guns, Maser. Fuggoff Dumbass.

Yes.

And that’s just scratching the surface.

He’s a dumb fugk.

Yeah, I thought so. I wonder if he ever provided an example of even one instance of that happening.

He has lied about it many times.

Montana Code Annotated 2021:
45-3-111. Openly carrying weapon -- display. (1) Any person who is not otherwise prohibited from doing so by federal or state law may openly carry a weapon and may communicate to another person the fact that the person has a weapon.

(2) If a person reasonably believes that the person or another person is threatened with bodily harm, the person may warn or threaten the use of force, including deadly force, against the aggressor, including drawing or presenting a weapon.

In Ayoobs scenario, you can interpret the law how you want but looks pretty clear to me, at least here in Big Sky Country.

That's what's known as the "5 Letter Law".

"Fugg Around And Find Out".

That's the problem. It's going to be some state's attorney bankrolled by Soros interpreting the law and looking for any angle to prosecute a gun owner exercising his rights. Even if you beat the rap, your defense may financially crush you. Ayoob offers sound advice. Makes that angle as tiny as possible.

Are you F'ing serious?

Yeah, I'm Fling serious.

Then you're a F'ing idiot. Did you read Wader's post? He is a lawyer and presently a judge.

Our friend, commonly referred to as "The Enabler" has told me of meeting MA in person a few times. He has formed his opinions of the man. His opinions seem to align with the majority here. None are complimentary.

Me, I never met the man. I did form an opinion on his writing many, many years ago. Often, facts in evidence contradicted his claims. More often his conclusions failed to align with common sense.

That he can proclaim to be a court recognized legal expert in matters of self defense attests more to the state of the courts than it does to MA's actual level of knowledge.

Stop being obtuse. Of course a potential defendant is going to get advice from his lawyer. Ayoob offers advice that will hopefully keep you from becoming a potential defendant. However, the person who will review the alleged crime and decide on prosectution is going to be a states district attorney. In some areas, the law and circumstances don't matter and the person is indicted. Case in point: did you see what happened in New York when a store owner was charged with murder for defending himself from a violent attacker, all caught on video? That was a case of self defense on its face. Yet some states attorney decided to prosecute anyway. There is no blinking at the fact that there are states attorneys out there that will look for a reason to idict a person who defends himself. Ayoob generally gives sound advice with respect to how to give that states attorney as few reasons as possible. A lot better advice than I've seen anywhere on this forum.

You make zero sense, the guy defended himself clear and still git prosecuted, so you and Aboob recommend doing nothing


Aboob is full of BS pure and simple

From personal experience...

If you use force against someone and they want to sue you, no amount of hand wringing or base covering will prevent or help that. Either you're a terrible person who screwed up or you're not.

Same-Same for activist prosecutors.

"No sense in giving them extra ammunition"..... It doesn't matter. They're going to paint you as the villain NO MATTER WHAT.

Exactly 💯

You're just making [bleep] up to be disagreeable. Ayoob does not recommend doing nothing. He recommends doing things wisely. Big difference. I'd take his advice over some of the [bleep] I've read on this forum any day. In the end, whether you walk or have to spend your life's fortune defending yourself is going to be based on what your actions give to a states attorney.

And Aboob's BS isn't going to make one bit of difference and that is what you are blind to.

None of Aboobs BS Is going to change anything


Stop doudling down on idiocy

Given todays tattooed gun-guy tacticool culture, most of these midget minded tough guys would do well to reflect on what he has to say.

LOL

TFF

AyBoob’s instruction on the matter is laughable.

Yeah, whatever.

Good call.

Given the moronic shyt I've read in this thread, Ayoob has more credibility than when it started.

Blue does this for a living read his post slowly and try to comprehend

Yeah, I read it, and he's right. Know how I know? Because I've been doing it for more than 30 years, too. That's my job. I have to provide defenses for people that are being sued for all manner of bullshit. People that got hurt when they tried to assault someone. Homeowners who are sued because they shot an intruder. Insureds that get sued because they deck someone that harasses their wife. Anyone can sue you for anything. Whether or not is ultimately goes anywhere is based on what the attorneys are given. That's the fugging point. The less you give a prosecutor or a plaintiff attorney to prosecute a case against you, the better.

No Blue is a LEO not a Civil attorney

I'm not an attorney, either. But I have attorneys on contract for insureds and I manage the litigation that arises from civil suits. Self defense situations, including clear cut cases, generate a lot of lawsuits. How someone handles themselves in a self defense situation is paramount. A plaintiff attorney, and a prosecutor, will use anything they can use against you.

That's a given, but Aboob's BS doesn't negate that fact.

I'd have seen a lot more defense verdicts, and fewer settlements and verdicts if more defendants had followed his advice. Maybe not 100%. But you wouldn't believe some of the dumb [bleep] I've seen.

Abood vs Flave ...
Round 2 ...

The very last person I'll take use of force advice from in an employee of an insurance company.

And I've seen cops [bleep] up more cases than anyone.

Yes, the people involved in cases are usually the ones who screw them up. Hard to screw up a play from the sidelines.

It's the side lines that gets a wrongly prosecuted individual justice. And usually the ones that pay for it.

You noticed that too....he's a total morOn

So you work for an insurance company?

LOL

How so?

Yeah, so what we have to do is hire and pay for lawyers to unfuq what many cops screw up. You know, jacked up investigations and reports, failures to talk to witnesses, allowing evidence to deteriorate and spoliate. That sort of thing.

None of which has anything to do with Aboob telling you to shine your light on the floor instead of where you are looking

LOL

Well for starters, he’s never been a cop.

All that means is that he's never fugged up an investigation. And probably shoots well, too.

More likely means he's full of BS and never cleared a dark room with an armed intruder.

Inother words Aboob is a lot like you

Most lawyers, district attorneys and judges haven't either. And truth be known, most cops probably haven't, as well. Some of the worst legal advice you can get is from a cop.

Then why are you advocating taking Aboob's legal advice or should I say BS

Absolutely. And unfortunately, that's the 'New normal' for OIS incidents as well. If you draw an activist prosecutor, it's all about Who got dusted instead of Why they got dusted.

I wore a badge full time for most of my adult life. I'm glad I retired when I did.

And...

Golly, I thought Deflave said, "Well for starters, he’s never been a cop."

Even worse!

Thank you for your service.

It's just unfortunate that its necesary.

You don’t have to be a cop to know about legal issues relating to the use of force.

But when it comes to tactical decisions related to hunting other men with guns you do need experience in the field, preferably a lot of it, to know what works and what doesn’t.

There are a lot of tactical decisions that seem good in the comfort of Bill Wilson’s lodge that just don’t work in the real world. Any tactic you use must work in the courtroom. It must also work when you’re opposed by an armed, determined opponent.

The first part can be gleaned from research and books. The second comes from boots on the ground. Preferably not boots in a part time role in a town of 3,000 people.

For the record, in practice I use handheld lights to look for bad guys and WMLs only after I find them.

But for completely different reasons than what MA laid out.

Exactly 💯

I remember an article of his extolling the virtues of the Combat Masterpiece from back in the '80s. When I finally bought one back in the 90s it turned out to be one of my favorite handguns. A broken clock is right twice a day is still a true saying.

Is this a serious follow up?

Or are you just talking out your ass?

If you’re too stupid to understand the context of that response you should probably go back to fugking people out of their insurance money.

I managed to be able to watch a few minutes of the video, not the whole thing. Ol' Mas is perpetually terrified of legal action.

Now, that said, I will agree that if one is out and about, you shouldn't go around pointing your weapon light at people. Like if you're walking through a dark parking lot, and you hear a sound, you shouldn't be drawing your gun and pointing it around to see what it was. Of course, if you're walking around in a dark parking lot, you should already have a separate flashlight out!

But in your own home???? A light mounted on your gun is perfect. Middle of the night, one thing, grab it and go. "Oh, but it may be a guest that one of your family members invited and didn't tell you".... .please.

With all his blather, does anyone know how many felons this expert has arrested, or drew down on?


His bullshitt is so vague.

He better recount those Glocks

I read your responses, and your stupid fugging comments are what makes this the dumbest thread in the handguns section today.

No you won that title. I don't think you have 10 Glocks

Sure thing, dipschit.

Good point and I'll ask another question or two along the same lines....

What's MA's score? ...he claims to be an "expert witness" so how many cases has he been called in for to testify before a judge and jury, if any? Has his testimony helped the defense or the prosecution? The basis for his real world courtroom cred. should clarify his claimed "expertise".

Thank you!

"Ayoob has appeared as an expert witness in several trials. He served as a part-time police officer in New Hampshire since 1972 and retired in 2017 with the rank of Captain from the Grantham, New Hampshire, police department."

"Grantham is a town in Sullivan County, New Hampshire, United States. The population was 3,404 at the 2020 census,[2] up from 2,985 at the 2010 census. The planned community of Eastman is in the eastern part of the town."

Crime statistics for Grantham:

https://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Grantham-New-Hampshire.html

There is exceptionally minimal crime in Grantham.

Many years they had virtually NO violent crime at all for their full time officers to deal with.

This is in 2006-2019.

Prior to this it was even quieter.

There is nothing going on in Mayberry.

Hair pieces are loved by Boomers all over the US

Extra points for each eye going a different direction.

He must be a “Corsair.”

Yall need to quit arguing and go practice. I did ran into 2 dudes carrying Shadow Systems who made fun of my $300 Dagr. After they shot it they liked it.

I’ll start practicing right away.

Thanks.

I heard a commotion last night and I went out to check it out with WY pistol and light. I had my light pointed down trying to find the intruder with the reflected light.

Not a chance would I do it that.

Yep, all ya boomers remove your WML’ s. Aboob says you’ll get charged with felonies and sued civilly.

Y’all go back to your D cell’s. And don’t cross your weapon and D cell flashlight when searching, hold the light up and away from your body, bad guys shoot at the lights….. F’tards.


It’s kinda nice having a free hand….

Having actually attended an Ayoob class when he was in his prime I can assure you that he is a total fraud. It was a weapon retention class in the mid '80s sponsored by a fed agency. He could only demo his "proven" techniques w/ a compliant, non resisting opponent. We routinely trained retention wearing helmets, mouthguards and cups and at full speed. He declined to participate and left early.

He taught an entire generation to fear shooting a bad guy but if you did, hire him to explain why it was OK.

He was and is a noodle necked fraud.



mike r

1 Glock will be along to tell how good his advice is. LMAO

Like button pressed 😆

It is serious. Rarely if ever talk out my ass. I know several police officers, and most have never been in a shooting. Is their advice good or bad?

What advice are you asking about?

Let us not forget those long-tubed Maglites made wonderful clubs, better then fully loaded 33 round Glock magazines.

I figured out this guy was full of schit 20 yrs ago...

Ahh, that's just wrong....LOL

1Glocks isn't going to like you now.

LOL. In use of force situations, dead insureds are probably cheaper for liability insurers, as opposed to life insurers. Please continue to adeptly sling those flippant remarks, as appropriate.

Some people in the “business” of being an expert witness in court have oversize egos. They think they are the smartest guy in the room, and many accept them as such. Ayoob is in that category. He can be very dogmatic at times. He can be very dramatic. His deep voice adds gravitas to “It was a dark and stormy night” stories. I watched the video. I think it misses a key point-why are you searching with a gun in the first place? (Stophel made this point a few hours ago.) If you just need a flashlight for illumination and attach a gun to it like some sort of multi-tool, that’s just stupid and a good way to get into trouble. If you need a gun, having a flashlight attached to it adds versatility. He starts out with a premise that is true enough, that a weapon light is not a substitute for a separate handheld light as a primary search tool. But then he spins it into a theoretical rabbit trail replete with bad analogies (hunting scope) and scary war stories. The war stories include multiple concepts, most of which do not appear to have anything to do with the use of weapon mounted lights but with pointing guns at people generally. It then segues into a unique issue involving WMLs that he turns into the focal point of the video rather than focusing on the main issue. Did any of the war stories actually involve people who got jammed up because of the WML?

Without getting into too much theory, which varies from state to state, pointing guns at people or merely holding guns in a certain manner can result in criminal charges. Everybody knows that. When you do it, you need to have a valid legal basis, whether it is that your actions do not meet the statutory elements of a crime or because the elements of a crime were met but the law recognizes justifications that excuse the otherwise illegal behavior. The valid justification is that something occurred for which your actions were reasonable under the circumstances and authorized by law even if technically illegal.

So, why are you searching with a gun in the first place? If it is just so you can find your cat in the back yard and you use your WML, that obviously is stupid. If you are out in public and you need to figure out what’s going on before deciding if an armed response is necessary, using a WML is stupid. Everybody here knows that (I hope). Is it because you are asleep in your house and you hear glass breaking consistent with forcible entry? Did you arrive home and find the place ransacked? Are you a police officer summoned by a property owner or his mechanical or human authorized representative (alarm or alarm company) who believes a burglary may be in progress, or kicking a door because it sounds like someone inside literally is getting the life beaten out of them? Aren’t those the types of crimes in your state for which a search with a drawn firearm is legally defensible? (Of course, you should first analyze the circumstances and consider whether or not there is the possibility of innocents present and adjust actions, such as an announcement, accordingly.) The justification for the firearm, whether deemed “brandishing” at low ready, pointing a gun at someone temporarily, or holding someone at gunpoint, is the same whether you actually catch a criminal or frighten someone who is not a criminal but somehow found themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time. Ayoob dismisses that by saying it’s “no harm, no foul” if you actually catch a criminal, but that you can go to jail for aggravated assault if it turns out to not be a criminal. I don’t know what state(s) he is talking about, but he’s not talking about mine as long as you reasonably thought that a crime involving the threat of death or serious injury was occurring.

BTW, if someone is searching something with a separate handheld light and someone pops out from around the corner, how many people out of a hundred won’t instinctively raise their gun anyway and start barking commands (or worse). The location of the light on the gun or in the off- hand is not going to be much of a distinction in real life. Also, before the WML became common, most of the handheld flashlight techniques involved mating the flashlight with the gun in a number of different ways (including some claimed to have been developed by Ayoob) that roughly equated to using a WML while searching. (viking alluded to that.) Then there are searches with carbines and shotguns, movement while holding something or someone in the flashlight hand, opening doors, etc. Dogma can be very problematic in real life. It’s a straitjacket. The ability to think in real time, to apply logic and to explain your actions is important. “One size fits most” pronunciations provide little benefit when dealing with something as serious as people’s lives and freedom, as discussed earlier by Waders. Use them with caution and get advice specific to your locale.

I’ve wasted too much time on this. In a past life I must have been a YouTube video critic. I need to get back in the woods with my bow. Y’all take care.

P.S. I’ve been to two Ayoob classes, but those were a long time ago. Ayoob used to be a Glock hater because he thought their triggers were dangerously light. He would have lost a lot of business had he not adjusted his thoughts about them. I also think that 30 years ago he would not have advocated tricked out guns with bells and whistles or those bearing names like “Wilson Combat” engraved on their sides for display in front of a jury. “Combat” sounds very martial and could give district attorneys and plaintiffs’ lawyers theoretical arguments to use against you in court. Wilson Combat guns are OK, handloads are bad. Alrighty. Dogma shift, unpublished shifts in positions over time, and/or just inconsistent?

P.P.S. If an “expert” puts out a paper or video saying that something is good or not good, it is good for business. If you follow the expert’s advice, you are a potential client. If you don’t follow the advice, you are a potential target. “Experts” can make money either way and enhance their CV.

Things like this are very much situational.

I believe, for 99% of civilian situations, using a WML will be in their home, or on their property. Anyone there without the right to be there might get a gun pointed at them regardless.

I doubt that is a crime in most jurisdictions, but maybe in some.

When Glock came to US shores AyBoob was a major thorn in their ass.

They paid him to love Glock, and he has loved Glock ever since.

He is a fugking fraud. Nothing more.

Exactly.

That wandering eye'd jackass has no fugking clue what he's talking about.

Snake oil salesman at best. But he's really just a fraud.

I agree.

Any and all when it comes to defensive shooting. Basically, the same type of advice Ayoob gives.

Yes a person can give bad advice regarding the use of force.

Any other brain burners?

LOL

Ayoob is for sale when it comes to his advice - in addition to the other criticisms previously mentioned. Don't trust him.

I’ve read Ayoob since he first appeared in the gun rags. He attached himself to every fad and ‘next big thing’ that would sell an article. Then he started marketing himself as a LE, self defense expert and expert witness. His writings took on all manner of legal mumbo-jumbo, sounding as if he were a lawyer or paralegal. As a guy who spent 32 full time years in harness—nights, weekends, whatever—eventually learning this guy was ‘career auxillary’ spoke volumes. His writing sounded like he couldn’t decide if he was a cop or a lawyer, for the defense or prosecution. He was 'identifying' as all of them.

Grantham PD must be a real understanding agency because I would have gotten my ass fired if I signed on as an expert witness for a defendant whose 1. Wife committed suicide by shooting herself in the BACK of the head (during an argument) somehow managing to gather no gunshot residue at the wound site. Then the guy tells two stories- 1. That she shot herself when he walked in the room, and 2. No, wait I was actually trying to grab the gun when she brained herself with my 38. Yeah, that’s the ticket!

We’ve all gotten subpoenaed by the defense on cases where we were the reporting or investigating officer. That’s not what we’re talking about here. We’re talking about the second oldest profession here which is ‘paid witness’- the earliest example being Judas Iscariot.

Any career, full-time cop accumulates a committed-to-memory encyclopedia of lies and BS stories, floated in attempts to cover various crimes. If there’s an active or retired full time cop here who could look at the Bias shooting reports and say ‘I want to testify for that poor innocent bastard!’ by gawd, raise your hand. I’ll buy lunch next time you’re through central MO and you can convince me in person.

None of this bothered Ayoob, who not only testified for the guy- but later, sold articles about his involvement in the case! While many of us with decades in the CJ system might see this as a conflict of interest, personal code of honor or potential policy violation, none of that bothered Ayoob. Because for him, it’s always about the “Ca-Ching”. And when the Defense got their asses handed to them on a motion for private lab analysis of ammunition, it suddenly became about “No Reloads for Defense”. Whatever it takes to sell an article, I guess.

Speaking personally here, I wouldn’t walk across the street to see this guy juggle hatchets with his feet. I can point and laugh from across the street.

Well said.

Deflave if you shot as well as you troll you would win the Outstanding American handgunner award just like Ayoob has. I'm sure Jerry Miculek has you on speed dial for advice. By the way light in hand or on weapon use whatever works.

Exactly. Or your camping in bear country.

That’s why boob is full of it. Vague, vague. He made himself a self appointed expert.

The criticism of Ayoob is that he claims to be something that he is not. Why would you rely on advice from a person with phoney credentials and is a liar?

Flave and Jerry Miculke do not misrepresent themselves.

Small guy, big hairpiece, deep voice says...
"massage my boobs"?

He is a foam prop and his articles are written by a bot.

So, you really don't have any answers just sarcastic criticism.

Me being the curious type let me ask this.
How does this make Bill Wilson look being associated with someone like Ayoob since most thinks Ayoob is a pile of excrement.
Also since Hackathorn is associated with him how does he look?

"Yes a person can give bad advice regarding the use of force."

He did answer you did you miss it

Doesn't mean they agree with him.

My interest in Bill has to do with the pistol itself. Ken - best way to shoot the pistol - Ayoob is talking about the legal side of it. You can be legally wrong a 100/100 but damn, you can shoot well. I look at Bill/Ken to solve my shooting issues, pistol and manual of arms. I don't necessarily look to Ayoob to be my legal expert.

We all have friends we'd not take specific advice from on topic X but would on topic Y.

I know that Clint Smith uses his reloads for his carry pistol, so he doesn't take Aboob's advice

Ahh but ole Clint has a bit of snake oil salesman in him too. Mouseberger???

One thing is for sure and certain Clint is a very accomplished handgun shooter with either hand

Not taking up for the weirdo. But Ayoob does hold a Master rating in several of the 8 IDPA divisions, so I'd say he's an accomplished shooter as well.

Gotta take most all those types with a grain or 2 of salt IMO. Some good info to be had from most of them Sorting it all out is the tricky part.

Master class in IDPA isn’t hard to do.

ETA: Even M class in uspsa in doable for a lot of people, and it’s way, way harder to get than in IDPA.

I’m more interested in match finishes than class rankings. I don’t care so much what you accomplished by showing up to enough classifiers and swinging for the fences as I am how you perform against your peers, on demand, over an entire weekend of shooting.

No, I read it and didn't miss anything.

You either missed or you are extremely obtuse

When I was shooting sporting clays a lot - you had guys that were "Masters" or "AA" ranked etc but they got all of their punches to move up in a class at the same exact courses, usually local.

Get them off their home course and away from presentations they've seen 2000 times and they'd get their arse handed to them.

Show me a guy who made AA or Master class by hitting every tournament he could in his state and the 5 surrounding - that's a guy whose classification was a bit more legitimate - IMO

If the fugger is a B class shooter, he's a decent shot. No matter home range or the Nat's. My only point about Ayoob was that he can shoot. Maybe not off his range or best every day . But discredit him for his BS, not his shooting. He can.

Dang it, discredit an IDPA master cause IDPA master is easier than USPSA master??? Give me a break.

Back in the day most shooting instructors veered out of their lane when they went from technique to tactics, many still do. FOF and combining firearms and combatives thinned the herd a bunch and the GWOT took the theorists out of the game but many are still faking it.


mike r

A B Class shooter is a decent shot. And a B Class shooter has no business going around the country teaching people to be gunfighters. And especially not if he can't perform "off his range".

And it is fair to discredit an IDPA Master because it's easier to obtain than a USPSA Master. I'm both and I know first hand which is harder.

That's what ranking systems do, they rank people.

It ain't really his shooting skills that I have a problem with. It's his legal advice and his "expert witnessing".

Thinking that Ayoobs shooting ability was initially mentioned to verify his credentials for what he's preached. "But is that a issue for what he prints or speaks?" Even if he can shoot well or not, too which I believe he can, or once could, or even if he can't... doesn't really take away his ability to gather a plethora of data & history of shootouts, the aftermath & the outcome, form "his" opinion & present it to the reader.
Isn't his preaching simply based on gathered data of actual events, the outcome, aftermath, & repercussions? Not about his abilities as a warrior, firefight survivor or even match shooter. The info on the repercussions of is interesting for damn sure.

But he doesn't limit his teaching to that. This video is a perfect example of him giving terrible tactical advice based on his fact finding. He has an entire firearms training company built up around his persona.

I have lots of answers.

Ask the question.

That's not what he does.

OK, we're on a different page. I used to read the Ayoob files every month in American Handgunner. A play by play of various shoot outs, interviews with the good guy, the aftermath & repercussions. I don't know how long he was/is with AH but I had a subscription for 30 years. That's a lot of shoot out accounts. My knowledge of him.

I really never paid much attention to his or others articles or vids on tactical advice. There are basics, sure. But if I believe that if a guy survives a shoot out or 5, he can only relate to those, as all can be a new set of problems. Few if any are worth our time.

Years ago I shot with a guy that was USPSA Master in all 5 classes. I was very impressed until I watched him shoot! He was a gamer, all of his classifiers were shot on his home range, every single one & he would cherry pick them & shoot them for a couple of weeks before their local match.
One of his friends told me in Revolver division (my division) that he always selected classifiers that required no reload & that he also shot minor power factor, so all he had to do was shoot "A" zone with his pop gun & he was Master class. I never once saw him enter any match shooting anything but limited or open class, depending on who would show up. There's a world of difference between IDPA & USPSA Master class.
After 10 pages it's pretty clear Ayoob is pretty controversial, except to himself.

Dick

Many people have complained about hunters using their scopes to look for game because their pointing their rifle at something they might not want to shoot. Using a light mounted on your pistol to search is dangerous because you may point your gun at something you don’t want to kill and because it gives your position away to bad guys.

I read many of his articles, but never watched the videos. That said I like the articles.

Another hunter is not a potentially dangerous intruder in your home

I have to give Ayoob at least a little credit for writing In Gravest Extreme. It was the first book I read (35+ years ago) that talked about the legalities (and tactics) of self defense, and it worked well to help teach a then-new wife about the topic. You can argue about many of his specific positions, but he did make me realize, what seems logical and obvious is not necessarily legal.

As far as the controversial "don't use handloads for self defense" Ayoob has produced a couple of specific cases where they caused legal problems. So the risk of handloads causing problems is low, but not zero.

His examples are a hell ova stretch at best to blame handloads

It could be someone you don’t want to shoot and your pointing a gun at them. Like your daughter’s boyfriend.

If he was invited in I'd know, if he invited himself then he is an intruder

In what way did it cause legal problems?

Was it an actual factor in the outcome of the case or was it something the lawyers just talked about?

Yeah, me too. I don't have a lot of experience doing this but enough to know that 1. a light or laser simply lights you up as a target and..
2. Nothing freaks them out like hunting them in the dark.

The best known case is probably New Jersey v. Daniel Bias - which did result in a conviction. I'll let you Google, as it is extensively discussed in several places.

Handloaded ammo will not turn a "good" shooting case into a "bad" shooting case unless the shooter or his counsel are incompetent (which isn't exactly rare). If the shooter doesn't run his mouth, the only real threat is that such a thing can significantly run up attorney's fees, and add several additional days to the court process while that angle is argued out in court. But at the end, if you and your attorney are smart, the end result should theoretically be the same. People can posture all they want, they can make all the arguments they want, but there is no law that prevents you from using handloaded ammunition.

Only thing I've seen him say with conviction about it is that using factory ammo increases the chance of accurate forensics due to the possibility that you might still have the box the fired rounds came from with the lot number - or something lIke that. He cited a case where that made the difference. I guess I'm screwed, 'cause I don't keep track of that stuff.

I have investigated, either as the primary investigator, co-investigator, or as part of a team, a significant number of shootings, unknown death investigations, etc. As well as attended numerous training schools related to the subject of forensic investigation.

Never, not once was the issue of whether the person was shooting handloads, reloads, or factory ammunition end up being a factor in the case, in terms of prosecutorial outcomes. Not one single time. This was also discussed with other investigators from various state/federal agencies throughout the country when attending training.

Not one single time did anyone have any personal experience with an investigation where that was the case. Again, not one single time. And we are talking about combining literally thousands of shootings/investigations. Senior guys groan when some new guy brings up the dang question and it eats up time during the class too, as it gets covered over and over, year after year.


New Jersey v. Daniel Bias was brought up. It is such a statistical outlier that it is not worth bothering with.

Think about this.

These are rough numbers BTW.

NJ vs Bias happened in 1989.

There are (very roughly) 15,000 homicides a year.

That would be over 450,000 homicides since the NJ vs Bias.

Yet handloads have not really been a factor in those 450,000 cases, so guys are digging all the way back to the 80s.



Someone who makes his living selling fear based propaganda and classes is not a person I would rely on for unbiased information.

There are far more important things to worry about.

AyBoob is a fugking fraud.

It's no more complicated than that.

The only way I can see handloads being an issue is if your claim was you had an accidental discharge that killed someone.

Then condition of weapon and loads matter. AD vs Negligence.

In a self defense shooting - the question isn't "how dead" but "should they be dead"? Any lawyer worth having is talking about that.

As a more pragmatic matter, as far as handloads go - for defensive use, the ammo has to be 100% reliable. To me, that means new brass, free of any nicks, dents, or burrs from previous firings. You obviously can get it with brand new brass, handloaded, or buy new factory ammo.

You could also argue, it's hard to find good defensive ammo for some cartridges, hence "I had to load my own for this gun"

Because I bet my life on a gun that needs everything perfect and my handloads are inferior to what a factory schits by the millions.

Get real.

AD is negligence, infact all accidents are caused by negligence

Thanks. I feel better about my casual ammo management now. Seriously.

Ayoob explains his vast LE and legal experience here, with a summary of what he's learned. For entertainment purposes:

https://americanhandgunner.com/handguns/lessons-learned-through-a-lifetime-of-study/

Not to completely rehash things but there's a decent thread here at 1911 forum. Discusses his video on mob attacks.

What's interesting - it's not so much about mob attacks but a lawyer's take on Massad and his history. Pretty interesting stuff if someone's looking to actually figure out if whom they listen to is worth it. Especially the difference between being "expert on the law" and an "expert witness" - Mas is one, not both. Guess which one it is?

Mas and Mobs - 1991 Forum

Anybody with a brain will agree with everything I’ve said about him.

He’s a fugking fraud and a dipschit.

If you really need answers or advice on this subject, I'll leave you this. Seek training from a qualified professional. Do not seek or give advice or training on public forums.

This thread reminds me of all the people that asked if I was a doctor when I told them their “vaccine” wasn’t gonna do schit.

LOL

There’s more than one qualified professional that gives free advice in this forum.

But you have to possess the sense to recognize who they are and who they aren’t and a lot of people can’t do that.

That’s why people like Ayboob can make their living.

People lacking common sense and a functional BS filter would be better off to avoid the web entirely.

So what are you doing here?

LOL

It used to be that old, experienced, wise, and opinionated came as a bundle. Nowadays any boomer with opinions thinks he qualifies.

Ayboob set that standard around 1980.

Were it not for the internet, he’d have Delta Force on his resume’.

LOL 😆

I am not much of a fan of the guy. He seems to be slimy as they come.

On handloads, I don't think the fear that he expresses is justified and that them being used against you is the wrong approach to the subject. I've read that handloads won't change a good shoot to a bad shoot. However, in the instance that the facts are in question, one is better off using a round that has already had the forensic data collected on it; ie: choosing rounds which are in service by a major agency to save the $40-50,000 it may cost the defense to hire a lab to do so for one-off rounds or hand loads. How true is this? I don't know, but I'm not going to penny-pinch for defensive pistol loads that I may only shoot a few hundred of in a year. Therefore any firearm I'm taking out of my home for defensive purposes, I don't use handloads; its either Speer Gold Dots, Black Hills, or Barnes 5.56. Inside the home, my state has such favorable laws that it really shouldn't matter.

Handloads? Why yes. Have you seen the price of factory loads these days? if you can even find it.

No further questions….

In other news, Frank Dux did not win 321 fights.


LOL

Next you're going to say he never won the "Kumite"

Plenty of boomers have been calling BS on Mas since the eighties, but like in all generations, there's always gonna be enough gullible people to keep guys like him cashing checks.