I would not consider a hollowpoint for that scenario at all.

I load my .45 Super and .460 Rowland with 255 grain LFN GC bullets, 300 grain WFN GC in my .44 Magnum. I like the Brinnell Hardness above 18.

The bear around here are not as big, nor have I ever had one give me a hard time, but you never know.

Thanks for posting that video, I hope it encourages a civil debate. Choice of bullet is very important and can make a difference between a mauling or not.

Hard cast LBT type WFN bullets or all I use in my 44 mag & 45 Colt revolvers and my 10 mm and 45 acp auto loaders. They will damn sure exit big ole tough boar hogs after reaching the vitals. Rarely ever catch one in a animal.

Handguns are sure better than nothing. But I bet those guys were wishing the rifles had not been left elsewhere.

The wider meplats of revolver bullets leave larger would channels, but penetration is the most important. Can't be effective if the bullets doesn't reach the vitals

Yep.

Thanks for posting! However, some will continue to use HP’s in spite of overwhelming data that shows their potential ineffectiveness! Some folks are incapable of being educated!

For my handgun……400 grain, wide metplat, homegrown cast @ 1600 mv. Obviously, more velocity than needed….but it’s also my hunting load, the higher velocity makes for a bit flatter trajectory at potential hunting distances! memtb

Good Lord, what handgun are you using that slings 400 gr. bullets to 1600 fps?

Maybe a 500 S & W Magnum ???

I’ll pass. A 300 gr Hard Cast LBT WFN bullet out of a 45 Colt at 1100 fps out of a 45 Colt in a Ruger Bisley BlackHawk is more than enough IMO.

Nowadays, I mostly hunt with a 260 gr WFN LBT Hard Cast at a 1000 fps. Kills big feral hogs and deer like the hammer of Thor. 😬

Too bad they didn't trace Tyler's 10mm bullets. That would've been interesting. I suspect Tyler's bullets caused the bear to bleed out from lung/liver damage. But it took time.

Long ago JJHack, ( professional damage hunter with a couple hundred black bear kils using a 4" 629) concluded that a 44mag hollow point killed much faster than hardcast. A HP caused the bear to stop and chase the wound, whereas a bear seemed unfazed by a hardcast hit. Of course JJ's bears were likely in the 200'ish pound range - half the weight of the Grizzly in the video.

But a 4" 44mag is going to move a 240gr HP 1209-1400fps - a power level far beyond a 10mm. I wonder if a 240gr XTP @1300fps would penetrate far enough on a 500+ pound bear?

There is no doubt that a big bore revolver loaded near full potential with heavy bullets clearly out does the 10mm semi auto. However, plenty of big bore revolver guys are carrying "packing pistols" of about 4" in barrel length and in the interest of recoil control and faster follow up shots they download their magnum cartridge a little. A 4" .41/.44/.45 revolver with 220-250 gr. bullets at 1200 fps makes a fine packing gun that is shootable in a crisis situation. And in the case of the .45's with hardcast it would cut a significantly wider wound channel that would create more damage inside a big mean critter than a 10mm. With that said, the full powered 10mm ain't no slouch and compares pretty well with those packing pistol loads when the 10 is stoked with a 220 gr. hardcast at 1200 fps. Going beyond the semi auto vs. revolver thing and focusing on power levels and necessary penetration it would seem the 10mm isn't too far off a typical 4" sixgun load.

If I remember correctly, and it has been a while, JJ stated that the lethality was the same, it's just that the bear "noticed" the hit with the HP bullets, which I believe he stated to be 300 grain XTPs.

It may be worth something to divert the attacker's attention, but I still don't trust HPs for bear defense. But it's still there in the back of my mind.

One of the benefits of the WFN/LFN design is that it will penetrate the skull when the HP would tend to ricochet. Penetration with hardcast LBT-types also tends to be more straight line than jacketed expanding types, too.

Two reasons I've moved towards the more powerful loadings in an autoloader, for defense, is less recoil and more firepower. I can get more shots off in a given time vs revolver and have more shots available. We won't compare reload times.

Now, if I am hunting, a powerful revolver is what I'll choose.

I shot an artic grizzly with a 475 Linebaugh Ruger Bisley a 390 grain LFN at 1350 FPS. The bear came in as I was working a moose kill. It only took 1 shot from my revolver

That beats 10mm, but not by as much as you think. 200 gr hardcast DoubleTap loads chronographed 1315 fps from my Glock 20. That 10mm load is almost certain to out penetrate a 44 caliber HP. And the 44 caliber bullet is only 29/1000" larger in diameter. About 1/2 the thickness of a dime.

I don't live in big bear country, but I've camped in Yellowstone twice and left the 44 at home in favor of 10mm. Having a smaller, more compact gun holding 16 rounds vs 6 that could have an attached light was more important to me than a small increase in power. And I do live where 200-500 lb black bear are pretty common. State record is 673 lbs.

https://www.wideopenspaces.com/673-pound-black-bear-may-new-georgia-state-record/

You are discounting frontal arwa and the larger diameter bullet. They count a lot more than FOE which I no longer give much credence.

When I was young. I didn't know anything about how to test bullets. No internet, and I didn't read much. I was very curious, and used all manner of objects to see what different bullets might do. For handguns I used a cast iron skillet buried in a damp sand berm. Back then I saw that most HP's lost their jackets, and the lead core broke up. The semi jacketed flat nose bullets also lost their jackets, but the lead core tended to stay together. Not always, but more than not.

I also saw first hand the failure of 22LR HP's on small game.

I've not been partial to HP's ever since. I do use them for certain things, but I don't seen them as a panacea.

I've read that a twelve gauge pump with slugs or a big bore lever is the go-to stick for big bears. Pretty hard to lace up ones boots, or skin out a moose with a long gun in your hands.

Now that I handload I usually have cast lead swc's in my revolvers. I load HP's too, but prefer the heavier ones.

JJ was shooting small black bears out of trees. Large bears don't climb trees because they are too heavy

No sir, actually a 460 S&W! Recoil is pretty positive……but, certainly not “unbearable” (se what I did there 😂) memtb

I had my head up my behind…….actually only 1500 fps. My apologies!

460 S&W with 8 3/8” barrel! Supposedly they can be pushed a little faster…..but these are pretty accurate @ 100. memtb

Download for faster followup?

Sounds rather silly to me.

If using for defense against something w claws n teeth I'd run 265s cranked in a .44 mag.
At a minimum.

BTW, saw a used Smith 329PD today. Sure is tempting. I shot one w hard cast 250 ish and it wasnt bad at all (w wood grips). Indeed shot recovery would be a little slower, that thing moved a bunch.

But I haven't found a 629-3 4" at decent price. So maybe the 329..............

How fast and accurate are you with 265's cranked in a short barreled .44 magnum? How many hits could you score on a volleyball size target rushing at you in an erratic pathway in 3-4 seconds? Only hits count.

You're always better off with a load you are comfortable with, if you're missing then that bear isn't impressed! Big heavy bullets, put in the right place don't need top end velocities to get the job done so shoot what you can handle, not what someone else tells you to handle.

Dick

Comfort wise, 265s and under for me. Shot some 300s.
Broke my 629-1 trigger pivot too LOL

I just fitted a new ejector rod housing to a brass frame 3 screw 7.5".
Aint gonna be testing that one tomorrow LOL Wrist might be getting MRI, been screwed up for almost a month now.

Am thinking though, all the Smith Classics had endurance package and could get one in 5".
Might be a dandy all arounder. But I like the looks of a non full underlug. Don't like Mountain guns.
The 329 PD is light. That in a chest rig might be sweet.

Knowing just a little about your depth of experience with big bore revolvers and killing game with such I always appreciate and value your opinion.

Ok, here's what you asked for, and Sweet it is.... And I'm Shooting HSM 305gr LWFN GC @ 1260fps w/1075ft/lbs...... get ya some....
Lj in Alaska.....

And just to be clear,,,,,, that 329 is not Stock, ie... see attached Write-Up.....

300's are a little too much for me.
Proly coulda worked into em, but just didn't see the need, since Im not in bear country.

Do think the longer/heavier bullets maybe range through on line better.
So maybe even for deer they're of advantage.

Guys around here say 300s in handgun or rifle for deer (.44 mag).

I had good luck on deer 240 gr and under.

You really want me to spend that money LOL!
Nice setup

It might be sweet goin' for a ride in a chest rig.
I shoot a lot of different kinds of handguns and that 329PD bitch will put the hurt on you.
The 500 S&W is much more pleasant to shoot.

However, with Mr. Big charging you, you're not going to notice the 329PD recoil.
So there's that.
329PD is just not fun to practice with using full house loads.

In relation to that, I have a book, Fifty Years On The Old Frontier, by J.H. Cook, in which he tells of when he shot a buffalo bull in the head with his single action "Colt .45 pistol." The bullet went all the way through the bull's skull and brain, dropping the bull immediately. He wrote he was about ten yards from the buffalo. That was in 1887.

Cook had grown up in Texas, became a cowboy riding with several trail herds north, later became a professional hunter in Wyoming and Montana, guide to eastern hunters, etc., etc. He did not mention what weight the .45 bullet was, but it is a good guess it was the standard factory round at that time for the .45 Colt. I haven't looked it up in a long time but I believe that the factory load would have been a 255 grains lead bullet. (??) I don't recall the FPS of that load in a Colt .45, but it would be more in line with Dick's statement above.

FWIW.

L.W.

44 Mag, 45 Colt, 45 ACP, 357, 41 Mag, 44 Special, 32 Long & 38 Special all work very well with cast bullets. I don’t know about the 454 and bigger because I never owned them.
I found that a 320 grain pb cast bullet in the 44 Mag has all the recoil and performance I will ever need.

I’ll shoot jacketed bullets in these, but I don’t expect any better performance.

I like hollow points in 22LR though.

Sounds like a good read. I’ll have to hunt for a copy.

[quote=JMR40

That beats 10mm, but not by as much as you think. 200 gr hardcast DoubleTap loads chronographed 1315 fps from my Glock 20.

[/quote]

Love to see a video with that chronograph velocity out of a 4.6” G20. I don’t even get close to that out a 5” custom Jarvis barrel in a G20, or 5” 1911, or even a G40 with barsto barrel, with the same ammo.

I shot a 329 PD w hardcast 255gr the owner said were pretty warm.

It was not bad. Jumpy, but not bad.

My concern w buying one is my screwed up wrist. Until doc finds out why its messed up, Im not shooting any .44 magnums. Proly a stress fracture from work.

Found a used 329pd for under a K. Sure is tempting, even w bum hand LOL

The video said that the aerosol from bear spray didn’t have any effect on the bear, but did affect the men. I wish it had elaborated on that. I’ll bet it impacted their ability to shoot.

And they smelled the elk carcass but still decided to leave their rifles with the horses. I’ll bet they don’t do that again.

Wish everything was as simple as some here like to think.
Hear how Their bullet choice is the answer.

Chose a better HP for the 45 and swap shooters positions?

Good chance the 10mm hardcast would have done brain damage.
If not, 45 HP in the ribs would have worked better(faster) than the 10.


Hard Cast kill. No doubt.
It's hilarious though. Talk about meplat, speed....trying to gain a few thousandths
in killing power. Then discounting a soft point or HP out of hand.



FWIW
I'm on the side of 40, 10, 45 semi with a big flat nose.

Because you don't get to choose the angles, and if you are the target it's probably
head on.

I hear the comment frequently about how under stress a person won't notice the recoil.

Having trained hundreds (I am sure it is over a thousand but I never bothered to keep track) of people over the course of 30 years, including citizens, .mil, .gov, leos, etc, that has not at all been my experience in observing and training people.

Reality is very different.

In reality, when put under additional stress, people do not suddenly perform even better. They generally do much worse. If they were incapable of controlling the recoil of a lightweight, hard kicking handgun before, they are not suddenly going to be able to place precise shots with it in a rapid manner. It is quite normal to perform at a lower level than what a person does during a training session where there is little stress.

The same applies with shotguns and rifles. More times than I can remember I have heard someone say "well if it is for real, they won't notice the recoil". No matter if they notice all of the recoil or not, the person who is not competent at that given time, is not going to become competent when outside factors are causing their body to lose some of their fine motor skills and they are in sensory overload.

I have seen people pull the trigger on a pump shotgun 4 and 5 times, forgetting to take the weapon off safe or properly rack the slide. That was just with a minor amount of stress from having some physical exertion put on them and having an instructor beside them talking in a loud and aggressive manner to them.

When it comes to guys shooting heavy hard kicking revolvers, a great many go straight to the numbers. They go with the heaviest. They opt for the biggest bullet going the fastest. They then tell themselves that under stress they will be able to put all the rounds onto target in under a second, or 1.5 seconds.

Having done many bear drills at a gathering I attend every year, watching guys shooting these cannons, once again, people's perceptions of what they think that they can do, and what they can actually do are quite different.

Egos get bruised, and the timer does not lie.

Personally it is one of the reasons why when shooting revolvers I don't shoot maximum loads in .44s and .45s.

It is also one of the reasons why I tend to favor a semi auto when in big bear country. A 250 grain hard cast .45 ACP at 925 that I can make a bunch of hits with under 2 seconds, beats a monster magnum that I can get two shots off at best, and the second one usually is questionable in under 2 seconds, and often not in a CNS zone.

Yup, even with just a timer and couple folks watching, seen some shooters go to heck.

Am interested in a 10mm Delta Elite. Buddy has one, and hot loads........I thought were nothing great.
As far as blast and recoil.
Accuracy was very good.

Like 1911s very much. But nobody has the new Delta Elites around here (shop has some ordered).

Is the 10mm good enough ?

Have one .44 mag (Ruger), and proly get another (Smith), but also wouldn't mind a 10mm 1911 (Colt)

I find a deal on a 629-3 4" and I'll proly put a Brown speedlatch on it like my old one had. Hell I found some old speedloaders a while back, good enough reason to justify a replacement LOL

The 1911 45 ACP is the only semi-auto I’d trust but I would never pick a semi-auto over a revolver for reliable operation especially where weather can be an issue.
I can and have shoot 6 rounds in less than 6 seconds with a 357. A 44 Special or 45 Colt take more time. A 44 magnum takes even more time. The snub nose revolvers in 454 or 44 magnum called the “Alaskan” would not be a good choice for me.
I’ve observed a trick shooter in Deadwood shoot a 357 revolver accurately in much better time than I’ve been able too, when he performed his ‘trick shooting’, it sounded like a rapid fire machine gun and his aim was good.
My normal carry revolver is a Model 19 loaded with 158 grain Keith style cast. I might be tempted to carry my 629 with cast bullets in country where I might be concerned about bears or wolves, but the loads would be somewhere between magnum and special loads.

For me, even when eyes good, a 4" was max usage to 50 yards.
6" to 100.
Used to hunt creekbanks for chucks w .44 mag.
Back when we had groundhogs.
Can't remember shooting a buds 5" classic 629.
Would like to try one again, see if I should split the diff between 4 and 6".

I wonder if the data supports your assertions?
Why am I being such a pest? Because it turns out that the great unwashed masses of outdoorsy types who carry a firearm for bear protection do excellent even though they aren't pistoleros (by forum definition).

Soooo either the data is dishonest (i.e. mistakes/failures left out), or the forum group-think of what is required is faulty.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/bear-attack-pistol-failures/

Had one when they first came out. Hated it.
And I’ve been shooting hard kicking max loads out of 4” & 5” barreled big bore handguns for most of my adult life.
Even with “medium loads” of a 260 gr WFN LBT Hard cast bullets at 1100 fps, “quick” follow up shots are next to impossible. Not to mention my hand feeling like a Fuqking mule kicked it after shooting and stinging and being numb for the rest of the day after extended range sessions.
ALSO, the loads were bad about “jumping the crimp” from the recoil, and binding up the cylinders.

My take on the 329 PD is you couldn’t give me another one. Even for FREE.

I’ll stick with my old Glock 20 loaded with 16 rounds of the Buffalo Boar Outdoorsman 220 gr hard cast loads any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
It’s Uber reliable and has never failed to feed or go bang after many thousands of rounds. And reasonably “fast” recovery for multiple hits on target or easy with practice.

If I didn’t have that, I’d definitely go with one of my 1911’s with a hard cast 250 gr WFN LBT bullet at 950 fps that I load which is very similar to the load Mackay Sagebrush sells and uses. And I wouldn’t fill the least bit “underarmed” with it in bear country as I know how well I can shoot with it and have seen the results on numerous large feral hogs I’ve shot with it at the Ranch. A couple which charged after sticking with an arrow while bow hunting at very close range.

Yeah, I get 1,183 fps from them out of my G20. Here’s a full list of what I’ve gotten with what I've shot.






I’m going to post a full thread on it, but I had a DT 200gr HC load blow up my Kriss Vector 10mm CRB Carbine. Kriss fixed it immediately and sent it back to me. Their armorer, who inspected it, believes, and convinced me, that it was either due to bad brass or an over-charged load. I won’t shoot DT ammo anymore. Underwood is better anyway. YMMV.

You are fooling yourself if you think a revolver is more reliable than a modern auto pistol like a Glock or 1911 in. Malfunctions in revolvers generally turn your defensive firearm into an expensive rock. Militaries around the world left revolvers behind a century ago for good reason, reliability "where weather can be an issue". We hear the old cliché that fewer parts equates to better reliability is just that, an old cliché. Similar to claiming a Model A Ford is more reliable than a modern Toyota. Take your revolver of choice and put it through the same field tests Glocks have been through and see how that turns out. You'll change your mind post haste.

Two different people. Two different mindsets.

I like the 329pd. I don't find it a big deal to shoot. I started with a 240gr XTP @1275fps. Then I went to a 255gr WFN@1250fps. Then a 270gr WFN@1150fps. My new fave is a 300gr@1030fps.
The 300gr has a .360" meplat and appears to penetrate just fine. I'm confident it would find it's way into the vitals of a bear at any angle. I like the "feel" of the 300gr recoil better.

Wow, you been drinking the (SA) Semi-Auto Kool aide for sure,,,,, your Military statement show's that you've never been there, and as for the SA-Colt 1911 (which I had in VietNam) was chosen for 1-One attribute, and that was for it's Number of Rounds, in Quick-Fashion Down Range, Period !!!
And there were quite a few guy's carrying S&W M19 .357's in VietNam as well,,,, Never, Ever, Dis-Count the Effectiveness and Reliability of a Revolver in the Hands of One who knows what they have, and how to use it,,,,, and with respects to these Posts about Bear Defense,,,,, it's not about how many rounds you've got, or how Fast you can deploy said rounds down-range,,,, it all comes down to (holding your water, as my Granddad used to say) and putting those Round's where they need to be,,,, in the CNS (Central Nervous System) and or the Vitals of said Bear, as I've been there and done that, on multiple occasions.....
Lj in Alaska.....

Quote: Militaries around the world left revolvers behind a century ago for good reason, reliability "where weather can be an issue"




Semi autos likely contributed greatly to the reports that approximately 50,000 rounds where fired for every kill in Viet Nam!


Thanks, but I’d prefer to have 1 or 2 well placed bullets……than misplaced faith in a bunch in the magazine! memtb

Sagebrush, do you have 45acp’s? I’ve seen everything else on your website, but no 45 acp.

What a pile of BS!

So true. When I lived in AK remote I had a bear literally take me out. I was caught in an unprovoked charge where I had a Super Blackhawk 4 5/8 shooting 320s at full tilt. I was slow out of the leather and missed at point blank range. Partly because he was already on me and I had no time to line up. I am a firm believer that a 44 with 250s 950-1100 are plenty (I shot a cast 250 Keith going 1100 through a moose it had plenty penetration ). I would take speed over power any day. I carry both revolvers and semi autos but I don’t believe for a min that revolvers are more reliable.

So you died?



Kinda sounds like you lacked awareness, not speed. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but speed is useful before the bear is on top of you.

He does. Probably sell out quickly. I bet you could pre-order some from him.

Full disclosure, I have never been charged by a grizz or shot a grizz with a rifle or handgun.
I do live and recreate in grizz country. Years ago after reading Ross Seyfried and his opinions on big bore revolvers I acquired a Ruger Bisley 44 mag. chopped the barrel to 5.5"
loaded up 320 gr WFN with max powder charges of H110 and quickly discovered between the weight and recoil it wasn't near as useful as I anticipated. It now sits in the safe and I carry either a 1911 with a 255gr hardcast at 900 fps or a 40 S&W with a 200 gr hardcast at 900 fps.

This thread and a video on YouTube are two recent examples I've come across where autoloading rifles of modern manufacture had catastrophic failures. In both instances, it appears both, completely dis-similar models were totally effective at venting gas out the magazine, away from the operator. I'm pretty impressed with that.

Situational awareness seems like it has got to be more important than the gun/ammo carried. I've been surprised by bears a couple times when I figure it was my fault for not paying attention. Fortunately they were black bears and more interested in sneaking off with my elk meat or grubbing insects than me. It's still a lesson I try to remember.

I've got no delusions about my ham handed gun fumbling inabilities. Still I prefer the option of missing rather than being optionless. Auto or wheel? My answer is, "yes."

There's video on YouTube of Ted Nugent putting down a Cape Buffalo with a 10mm. With the right bullet autos are more than capable of handling large game. People get too caught up on headstamp when they should be concerned with what's actually coming out of the barrel.

I had a Ruger Blackhawk .45 colt for awhile, loaded it with 260gr soft points at 1350fps. It was a handful and I quickly realized it's lack of practicality in the dark after hogs when one handed shooting would have been required. A glock 10mm with night sights is orders of magnitude easier to use and still plenty powerful.

A bit beat up and was damn lucky. He kind of ran me over and ran past, I very clumsy got on knees and fired killing him outright. Not sure but I believe the muzzle blast in his face scared the $hit out of him because he ran to the side Turing broadside popping his jaws off. Ever have one of those slow motion moments when a frame or two sits in your mind? Never forget.

The post references differing firearms platforms , not the person pulling the trigger.

No koolaid, the standard issue sidearm for our military has been the semi-auto in one of several forms starting with the 1911 for over 70 years duration followed by the Berretta and now apparently the Sig. Yes, there have been soldiers carrying revolvers throughout history but those were in specialized situations, not across the board general issue in the last 100 years.

Show us what revolvers are more reliable than any of the top tier semi-autos and what makes them more so?

He can't, because it isn't true. If he has never had a revolver malfunction then he doesn't have enough experience

This should be good.
Lol

It is supposed to be showing on the website.

I just sent an email to my web developer guy, as there have been some issues lately.

All the info about the round is here, and I have some available in the classifieds.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/18327164/1

Hopefully I will get the website stuff back up and going as soon as I can make contact with the developer.

That heavy 250+P .45 ACP load is a personal favorite. I carry it a LOT. I tend to travel a lot and hike in areas where I can be in Grizzly country during the day and going out to eat later, and just want to pack one gun, so a 1911 or Glock that stoked with that load is a favorite for me.

We must be brothers from different mothers because I went through nearly the same scenario except with a Bisley in 45 Colt after reading many of Ross's articles. Same, same, carrying the wt. in way that allowed a good draw and then making hits under time constraints opened my eyes to the fact that following the original course may lead to serious failure. A G20 is rather satisfying in comparison.

I think it comes down to what you're comfortable with. If it's a semi auto does it have a safety so you can carry cocked & locked, surely you carry it loaded. Does the magazine ever come out from riding a horse or a 4 wheeler, I've had them come out a couple of times, not often but enough to make me nervous. Are you familiar with the controls in a stressful situation? If the answer is yes then the semi is the gun for you. Don't under estimate a practiced hand with a good single or double action. Remember I said "practiced". I'm guessing most experienced big bore shooters are shooting 2 handed & a good hand with a single action, cocking with the left thumb (right handed shooter) can do some serious work in a hurry if hand position is correct. If we're shooting double action I'm pretty confident I can keep up with about anyone with a semi auto. Maybe not....
As far as reliability goes if you take care of your gun it will take care of you, but the semi auto will do the same, so it should be a toss up. In over 50 years of taking game I can't recall a problem with a single or a double action six gun & I've had to speed them up more than once.
So again, I think it comes down to what the handgunner is use to & comfortable with. I've shot many USPSA matches with semi auto's, I'll stick with the revolvers for a while yet.
Dick

I'll take an ugly POS Plastic Fantastic every time over a revolver, if you want to
talk about weather and durability/ reliability.

Working correctly, functioning with any ammo?
Revolver wins.

But working correctly is key, given that a good semi is very reliable also.
It just might be ammo sensitive.
If you choose a goofy load and don't test it?
We can't help stupid.

Watch some of the goofy YouTube torture tests of semis.
Guns packed into mud.
Some still working.


Goofy?
Goofy crap happens.
A Glock or M%P gets gritty?
Drop the mag, disassemble.
4 pieces, rinse them, good to go.

Revolvers are great, I love them.
But arguing reliability under hash conditions is like trying to argue capacity
favoring revolvers.

This is a video of what can be done with a large bore single action revolver: https://www.americanhunter.org/content/video-the-454-casull-challenge/ Not saying this can be done by most of us. Just showing what is possible with enough practice.

Pretty cool video.

That load will absolutely work. I lengthwise a deer at 50 yards with a 250 gr 44 special MV925 and got an exit.

Thank You…..good video! Those that doubt the effectiveness of a revolver…..just haven’t spent much time with one! memtb

I'm absolutely not knocking semi autos, just saying that for me I'm more comfortable with a six gun because I've used them a lot more. I've also watched many, many guys with semi auto's that were fast beyond extreme! Would that same gun hold up in the field after it got dirty for a few days, You guys with more experience will have to answer that, I just can't hang my hat on it.
If I were going to carry one it would be a steel 1911 with a safety on it so I could carry it cocked & locked, I DO NOT trust a loaded, plastic gun in the field, just my opinion. My Kimber Eclipse 10mm or my Kimber Pro Match 45 with safeties on them I could live with but no safety, they ain't going!

Dick

If the men really did "leave their rifles on their horses"....that's a special kind of stupid right there.

You won't be doing that many times before you return to find your gun stock broken in half.

Tony

Here's a pair of 45 ACP bullets (230gr Winchester SXT) fired from a 5" 1911 into a 200 pound hog.
Penetration of both bullets was about three inches. Not quite the penetration shown by the worthless gel tests.
You know you're in trouble when the bullet doesn't expand, and doesn't penetrate either.
Just my worthless opinion, but for hunting, the 45 ACP is just too large in diameter, too slow, with not enough shank/length on the bullet.
And if you try to move up to a 300gr bullet, there's no case capacity left. Just get an LAR Grizzly in 45 Win Mag, if you must shoot a 45 cal auto loader.

Tony

When handgun bullets do as those did they tend to tumble and mot penetrate

I shot one of those 45 win mags, just about like a 44 mag.

I have a friend, a young woman I took to the range last year. She had a Glock model 19 and it kept stovepiping on her. I had read about the issue with limp wristing Glocks so I tried it and it happened to me a couple of times before I got through a magazine.

I guess my problem is maybe becoming careless in my grip. I’ve shot who knows how many thousands of rounds through revolvers over the years but have never owned a semi-auto. If I’ve got a bear on top of me and I have to shoot it with a mangled off-hand I would rather not have to worry about my grip.

Having said that, I know full well that there are a lot of things that can go wrong with revolvers.

@Earlyagain, is that you? I haven't seen you in a while. Have you seen Teach or Snake around?


Anyway, I don't know why you'd use HP bullets on a big bear. My priorities would be Shot Placement, Penetration Depth then Expansion. If I had to choose, I'd take the first two and the third (Expansion) would be the icing on the cake, if I can have it also.

If the Shot Placement and Penetration Depth are already there, I wouldn't be too concerned about Ft-lbs or Velocity as their quantity, by previous description, would already be sufficient to get the job done on a big bad bear.

The very same thing happened to a friend mine and also my wife …..when shooting his Glock 9mm (model ?). I shot the pistol and had no issues. I recalled that “stovepipping” was from “limp wristing”! After a brief discussion…..they were both shooting without issue!

My wife has a few nines, and has shot several others…..this time was her only “stovepiping” issue! memtb

@Earlyagain, is that you? I haven't seen you in a while. Have you seen Teach or Snake around?


.[/quote]
It's me :-)

I’m not in big bear country nor do I expect to be, but in that vein we do have the odd cougar roaming our Loess hills, river bottoms, and woodlots, strange as it may seem. So I don’t need a 44 mag.

However, I’m on my second S&W 329. I pounded myself pretty good with the first one, but since I’ve come to see it as a near perfect revolver for the 44 Special. If one hand loads, there are many possibilities. But even Buff Bore, Double Tap, Underwood, etc load a 240-255 gr hard casts at about a 1000 fps for the Special, which will probably be somewhere in the middle 900’s out of the 4+” barrel. These loads have been proven to be plenty (penetration) for deer, black bear, and others. Like the loads Sagebrush mentions.

Meanwhile there is Lightweight carry; light recoil, yet enough velocity for deep penetration for most purposes. Might even work on the big bears with the right person under the right circumstances which seems always true anyway regardless…

I've carried a 329 pd a lot in the grizzly filled woods of Island park. It seems like all the bears in Yellowstone head there during bow season to feed on gut piles. Lazercast used to make a very wide nosed 310g 22bhn wnfpgc bullet that u loaded at 1200 fps from the 329.

As I got older, weaker, and smarter I realized I couldn't shoot that load anymore. I've since stepped down to the speer 270g jsp at about 1100. It might expand a little bit at 1100 but it doesn't expand much and digs pretty deep. I run the same bullet in my 444p marlin and it does expand quite a bit at 2200fps but still holds together.

My new 432 hammer mold from m&p should put me near 260g for a flat point. I'll get something worked up with it that the 329 hopefully likes. I'm thinking a flat nose at 1100 should work well.

Bb

that 10mm load has killed at least a few Cape buffalo. i'd trust it for bear defense

yes, the hundreds of thousands of cops riding around all day and night with those same semi autos are just dumb right. my duty glocks were carried in some of the [bleep] weather you can find. rain, snow, boat patrol, floodwater etc. never failed to work when asked and never went off when the trigger wasn't pulled

Yikes! a 200 gr cast bullet at 1315 fps from a 10mm is zipping right along for sure. I remember someone shooting a Cape Buffalo with a 10mm, not sure how he got a semi auto into Africa, I thought semi's were against the law to bring into the country, but he had one!

Dick

if you watch the video his PH is carrying a semi in a belt holster too

You'd have to be a real dumbazz to carry HP ammo for bear defense. Penetration is key to doing serious damage.

If memory serves I think the 10mm ammo Ted used was custom made 190gr. brass solids. Or maybe they were copper. Either way there was nothing on the market at the time that would have been up to the task.

If you're from Africa you can legally carry a semi auto, not so if you are out of country. Actually I think South Africa is the only country that allows hand gun hunting period, might be wrong. Either way I did see the video of the guy taking a large Cape Buffalo with his 10mm semi auto & it worked just fine.

Dick

If you're looking at 10mm hunting videos there is a guy named Razor Dobbs that kills a bunch of game with a Dan Wesson 10mm. I don't know anything about him, just that he has quite a few 10mm hunting videos out there.

That's the guy I'm talking about, couldn't remember his name. Not sure how he's getting a semi auto in country but he did & he killed that Buffalo just as dead as if it had been with a 458. Can't knock it, just not sure how he's getting the guns in there.

Dick

Ted Nugent killed a Cape Buffalo around 2005 or a bit before. Ted is the first person that I know of to use the 10mm on Cape Buffalo

Dobbs used the Cor-Bon Hard cast, either 220 or 230 gr at 1250 fps

Dobbs said Double Tap 200 gr. hardcast. I have tried several different Double Tap loads in different cartridges and they were never up to their published velocities in my guns. Close maybe, but always a bit short of what they were advertised at. Underwood Ammo on the other hand has usually been spot on or even slightly exceeded their published velocities in my experience. I like the consistency of the Underwood ammo. I have some of Mac's .357 170 gr. SWC that I have been trying to get a hog to step in front of with no luck yet. The .357 Lost River ammo is accurate. I haven't chronographed it but my guess is Mac has got it figured out pretty well and I trust it scoots along at pretty close to his published velocity. If only one of these Ozark razorbacks would hold still long enough I'd be able to report on how well it penetrates game.

My experience with Double Tap Ammo mirrors yours. Never got the advertised velocity, but the accuracy was very good

None of the bears were shot out of trees

And all black bears regardless of size will climb a tree.

Howdy JJ……haven’t seen you around for a very long time. Or maybe, I’ve been look’n at the wrong times! 😉 Glad to see you’re still kick’n! 👍 memtb

I would guess that 220-230 gr 10mm ammo at 1250 fps would be some very, very hot ammo, even from a long slide gun, yikes!

Dick

Same thing happened to a guy I used to know well, he was a bear hunter extraordinaire and had taken a lot of big black bears in Washington. He was of small but fairly athletic stature and completely unassuming to meet and talk to but he knew how to hunt black bears. He had recently bought a Sig .40 from my shop and several boxes of Winchester 180gr ball ammo (target). He previously never carried a handgun bear hunting since he had his rifle but the area he hunted was beginning to see a hell of a lot more wolves and cats were always “thick” up there so he thought it would be better than nothing to start carrying a sidearm while hunting. The following weekend he went up to his spot and after a few days he’d taken the big bore he was after. He told me that he’d put a good shot on the big bear but it ran into the buckbrush after being hit. He gave it 45 minutes or so and then went in after it carefully. It was down 75 yards into the brush and he closed in on it. When he was inside of 20 or 25 yards he saw it move a little but he didn’t want to shoot it again with his 300wm because he thought it’d damage the hide too much so he said he decided to do the coup de grace with his new Sig .40s/w but he didn’t want to damage the skull so he aimed for below the base of the skull. After each shot the bear responded angrily but couldn’t get up (lucky for him 😀) and after each shot he expected the bear to die but it didn’t. He put 6 .40s/w 180gr ball into the back (posterior) neck and after skinning the bear he said not 1 of the pistol rounds made it passed the skin, fat layer and muscle into the “c-spine” or high spinal cord.

Obviously there are several factors that come into play but as already mentioned….A pistol is better than nothing but it requires a lot of practice, the proper ammunition, shot placement and a dash of luck. 😀. If one spends any amount of time around big bears in their habitat where THEY are at the top of the food chain and they come away thinking a handgun…any handgun is “enough” for those critters I’d say they need their meds adjusted.

I have noted in the past when testing ammo that some of the manufacturers must be using unvented test barrels as their advertised numbers do not seem to coincide with numbers attained with shooting them through a particular handgun, such as a 10mm Glock 20 for example. Same with powder manufacturers.

I just fired some loads today that will never be put into production as they were simply too hot, and knowing that many consumers have never once replaced a recoil spring on their favorite semi auto, going to the very edge of what is possible is generally not a good idea.

I ran some poly coat 200 grain 10mms that averaged over 1275 FPS today, including a small number just over 1300. That brass immediately all got tossed.

There are actually a few problems with running loads such as a 200 grain 10mm at 1250. One is that when you run a load that hot and fast the slide can actually outrun the magazine spring and you will have malfunctions.
The other is that the very vast majority of shooters are not used to shooting a hard recoiling semi auto. They are used to shooting a 9mm or at best a standard pressure .45.

To ensure 100% reliability and make sure the gun will cycle correctly you have to have an absolutely rock solid grip on the gun and in my observation, most shooters, unless they are used to shooting heavy 10mm loads, generally do not grip the gun hard enough, and malfunctions happen.

These are all reasons why backing the velocity down just a bit to make sure you will get 100 % reliability makes more sense than an extra 75 FPS. A 200 grain 10mm at 1150 or 1225 will both go clean through a skull of your typical large animal. But the 1150 FPS load is one where I have found from testing, that people can actually (with practice) be shot one handed if need be, which is a very real possibility.

Very good advice. Reliability trumps a little extra horsepower, go to a pistol match sometime & watch shooters shoot strong hand only or switch to weak hand only, lots of stove pipes, etc.

A number of years ago I bought 100's of both 44 (250 gr) and 45 (260 gr) Nosler Partitions when one of the mail order houses was blowing them out on clearance after Nosler discontinued them. Does anyone have experience using them? Appears they are a pretty good design.

Yes.

I used the 300gr. Flat Nose (Bisley 45 Colt) and the 260 Hollow Points out of Winchester 20 gauge slug ammo.

Even more of the 385 50 calibers out of 12 gauge slug ammo.

The 300 grainer from a 7.5 Ruger Bisley, near as I could tell, didn't expand, penetrated well and had a decent meplat.
Two deer, no recovered bullets. 35-40 yards away with a 1200 fps. Muzzle velocity

The 45 260 HP out of a 20 gauge expanded well and I don't believe we ever recovered one out of around 10 deer. It reminded me of the 12 gauge BRI slugs in how they killed well and shot well. They actually clocked close to the box listed velocity.
I would imagine it would behave differently out of a handgun unless up close at impact.

The 12 gauge 385 expanded well and penetrated okay.

We recovered 3 or 4 out of 20 deer. It looked like a shuttlecock when found and when it hit bones veered and tumbled.

I'd rather use a cast softnose lead slug; the 12 gauge Nosler jacket material hung up and did weird things. It certainly killed deer, but wasn't a worst case scenario slug.

I would imagine the bullets you have will work decent as a solid and will flare a bit up close. Bone impacts should help them open up.