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Joined: Jul 2007
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 15,965 Likes: 16 |
Sagebrush, do you have 45acp’s? I’ve seen everything else on your website, but no 45 acp. It is supposed to be showing on the website. I just sent an email to my web developer guy, as there have been some issues lately. All the info about the round is here, and I have some available in the classifieds. https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/18327164/1Hopefully I will get the website stuff back up and going as soon as I can make contact with the developer. That heavy 250+P .45 ACP load is a personal favorite. I carry it a LOT. I tend to travel a lot and hike in areas where I can be in Grizzly country during the day and going out to eat later, and just want to pack one gun, so a 1911 or Glock that stoked with that load is a favorite for me. ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/MrpyPMH.jpg)
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL. The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world. The website is up and running!www.lostriverammocompany.com
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Joined: Feb 2009
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,862 Likes: 5 |
I hear the comment frequently about how under stress a person won't notice the recoil.
Having trained hundreds (I am sure it is over a thousand but I never bothered to keep track) of people over the course of 30 years, including citizens, .mil, .gov, leos, etc, that has not at all been my experience in observing and training people.
Reality is very different.
In reality, when put under additional stress, people do not suddenly perform even better. They generally do much worse. If they were incapable of controlling the recoil of a lightweight, hard kicking handgun before, they are not suddenly going to be able to place precise shots with it in a rapid manner. It is quite normal to perform at a lower level than what a person does during a training session where there is little stress.
The same applies with shotguns and rifles. More times than I can remember I have heard someone say "well if it is for real, they won't notice the recoil". No matter if they notice all of the recoil or not, the person who is not competent at that given time, is not going to become competent when outside factors are causing their body to lose some of their fine motor skills and they are in sensory overload.
I have seen people pull the trigger on a pump shotgun 4 and 5 times, forgetting to take the weapon off safe or properly rack the slide. That was just with a minor amount of stress from having some physical exertion put on them and having an instructor beside them talking in a loud and aggressive manner to them.
When it comes to guys shooting heavy hard kicking revolvers, a great many go straight to the numbers. They go with the heaviest. They opt for the biggest bullet going the fastest. They then tell themselves that under stress they will be able to put all the rounds onto target in under a second, or 1.5 seconds.
Having done many bear drills at a gathering I attend every year, watching guys shooting these cannons, once again, people's perceptions of what they think that they can do, and what they can actually do are quite different.
Egos get bruised, and the timer does not lie.
Personally it is one of the reasons why when shooting revolvers I don't shoot maximum loads in .44s and .45s.
It is also one of the reasons why I tend to favor a semi auto when in big bear country. A 250 grain hard cast .45 ACP at 925 that I can make a bunch of hits with under 2 seconds, beats a monster magnum that I can get two shots off at best, and the second one usually is questionable in under 2 seconds, and often not in a CNS zone. Full disclosure, I have never been charged by a grizz or shot a grizz with a rifle or handgun. I do live and recreate in grizz country. Years ago after reading Ross Seyfried and his opinions on big bore revolvers I acquired a Ruger Bisley 44 mag. chopped the barrel to 5.5" loaded up 320 gr WFN with max powder charges of H110 and quickly discovered between the weight and recoil it wasn't near as useful as I anticipated. It now sits in the safe and I carry either a 1911 with a 255gr hardcast at 900 fps or a 40 S&W with a 200 gr hardcast at 900 fps. We must be brothers from different mothers because I went through nearly the same scenario except with a Bisley in 45 Colt after reading many of Ross's articles. Same, same, carrying the wt. in way that allowed a good draw and then making hits under time constraints opened my eyes to the fact that following the original course may lead to serious failure. A G20 is rather satisfying in comparison.
“Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them.”
― G. Orwell
"Why can't men kill big game with the same cartridges women and kids use?"
_Eileen Clarke
"Unjust authority confers no obligation of obedience."
- Alexander Hamilton
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,649 Likes: 1
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,649 Likes: 1 |
I think it comes down to what you're comfortable with. If it's a semi auto does it have a safety so you can carry cocked & locked, surely you carry it loaded. Does the magazine ever come out from riding a horse or a 4 wheeler, I've had them come out a couple of times, not often but enough to make me nervous. Are you familiar with the controls in a stressful situation? If the answer is yes then the semi is the gun for you. Don't under estimate a practiced hand with a good single or double action. Remember I said "practiced". I'm guessing most experienced big bore shooters are shooting 2 handed & a good hand with a single action, cocking with the left thumb (right handed shooter) can do some serious work in a hurry if hand position is correct. If we're shooting double action I'm pretty confident I can keep up with about anyone with a semi auto. Maybe not....
As far as reliability goes if you take care of your gun it will take care of you, but the semi auto will do the same, so it should be a toss up. In over 50 years of taking game I can't recall a problem with a single or a double action six gun & I've had to speed them up more than once.
So again, I think it comes down to what the handgunner is use to & comfortable with. I've shot many USPSA matches with semi auto's, I'll stick with the revolvers for a while yet.
Dick
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 21,918 Likes: 7
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 21,918 Likes: 7 |
The 1911 45 ACP is the only semi-auto I’d trust but I would never pick a semi-auto over a revolver for reliable operation especially where weather can be an issue.
I can and have shoot 6 rounds in less than 6 seconds with a 357. A 44 Special or 45 Colt take more time. A 44 magnum takes even more time. The snub nose revolvers in 454 or 44 magnum called the “Alaskan” would not be a good choice for me.
I’ve observed a trick shooter in Deadwood shoot a 357 revolver accurately in much better time than I’ve been able too, when he performed his ‘trick shooting’, it sounded like a rapid fire machine gun and his aim was good.
My normal carry revolver is a Model 19 loaded with 158 grain Keith style cast. I might be tempted to carry my 629 with cast bullets in country where I might be concerned about bears or wolves, but the loads would be somewhere between magnum and special loads. You are fooling yourself if you think a revolver is more reliable than a modern auto pistol like a Glock or 1911 in. Malfunctions in revolvers generally turn your defensive firearm into an expensive rock. Militaries around the world left revolvers behind a century ago for good reason, reliability "where weather can be an issue". We hear the old cliché that fewer parts equates to better reliability is just that, an old cliché. Similar to claiming a Model A Ford is more reliable than a modern Toyota. Take your revolver of choice and put it through the same field tests Glocks have been through and see how that turns out. You'll change your mind post haste. What a pile of BS! Show us what revolvers are more reliable than any of the top tier semi-autos and what makes them more so? The 1911 45 ACP is the only semi-auto I’d trust but I would never pick a semi-auto over a revolver for reliable operation especially where weather can be an issue.
I can and have shoot 6 rounds in less than 6 seconds with a 357. A 44 Special or 45 Colt take more time. A 44 magnum takes even more time. The snub nose revolvers in 454 or 44 magnum called the “Alaskan” would not be a good choice for me.
I’ve observed a trick shooter in Deadwood shoot a 357 revolver accurately in much better time than I’ve been able too, when he performed his ‘trick shooting’, it sounded like a rapid fire machine gun and his aim was good.
My normal carry revolver is a Model 19 loaded with 158 grain Keith style cast. I might be tempted to carry my 629 with cast bullets in country where I might be concerned about bears or wolves, but the loads would be somewhere between magnum and special loads. You are fooling yourself if you think a revolver is more reliable than a modern auto pistol like a Glock or 1911 in. Malfunctions in revolvers generally turn your defensive firearm into an expensive rock. Militaries around the world left revolvers behind a century ago for good reason, reliability "where weather can be an issue". We hear the old cliché that fewer parts equates to better reliability is just that, an old cliché. Similar to claiming a Model A Ford is more reliable than a modern Toyota. Take your revolver of choice and put it through the same field tests Glocks have been through and see how that turns out. You'll change your mind post haste. What a pile of BS! Show us what revolvers are more reliable than any of the top tier semi-autos and what makes them more so? He can't, because it isn't true. If he has never had a revolver malfunction then he doesn't have enough experience I'll take an ugly POS Plastic Fantastic every time over a revolver, if you want to talk about weather and durability/ reliability. Working correctly, functioning with any ammo? Revolver wins. But working correctly is key, given that a good semi is very reliable also. It just might be ammo sensitive. If you choose a goofy load and don't test it? We can't help stupid. Watch some of the goofy YouTube torture tests of semis. Guns packed into mud. Some still working. Goofy? Goofy crap happens. A Glock or M%P gets gritty? Drop the mag, disassemble. 4 pieces, rinse them, good to go. Revolvers are great, I love them. But arguing reliability under hash conditions is like trying to argue capacity favoring revolvers.
Parents who say they have good kids..Usually don't!
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Campfire Tracker
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Joined: Aug 2002
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Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 2,149 Likes: 2
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Joined: Mar 2015
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Sagebrush, do you have 45acp’s? I’ve seen everything else on your website, but no 45 acp. It is supposed to be showing on the website. I just sent an email to my web developer guy, as there have been some issues lately. All the info about the round is here, and I have some available in the classifieds. https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/18327164/1Hopefully I will get the website stuff back up and going as soon as I can make contact with the developer. That heavy 250+P .45 ACP load is a personal favorite. I carry it a LOT. I tend to travel a lot and hike in areas where I can be in Grizzly country during the day and going out to eat later, and just want to pack one gun, so a 1911 or Glock that stoked with that load is a favorite for me. That load will absolutely work. I lengthwise a deer at 50 yards with a 250 gr 44 special MV925 and got an exit.
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 11,034 Likes: 5
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 11,034 Likes: 5 |
Thank You…..good video! Those that doubt the effectiveness of a revolver…..just haven’t spent much time with one! memtb
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,649 Likes: 1
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Joined: Sep 2008
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I'm absolutely not knocking semi autos, just saying that for me I'm more comfortable with a six gun because I've used them a lot more. I've also watched many, many guys with semi auto's that were fast beyond extreme! Would that same gun hold up in the field after it got dirty for a few days, You guys with more experience will have to answer that, I just can't hang my hat on it.
If I were going to carry one it would be a steel 1911 with a safety on it so I could carry it cocked & locked, I DO NOT trust a loaded, plastic gun in the field, just my opinion. My Kimber Eclipse 10mm or my Kimber Pro Match 45 with safeties on them I could live with but no safety, they ain't going!
Dick
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Joined: Dec 2008
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 656 |
If the men really did "leave their rifles on their horses"....that's a special kind of stupid right there.
You won't be doing that many times before you return to find your gun stock broken in half.
Tony
Last edited by TonyRumore; 04/10/23.
Run it up, until you blow it up, then back it down a bit.
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Joined: Dec 2008
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Campfire Regular
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Here's a pair of 45 ACP bullets (230gr Winchester SXT) fired from a 5" 1911 into a 200 pound hog. Penetration of both bullets was about three inches. Not quite the penetration shown by the worthless gel tests. You know you're in trouble when the bullet doesn't expand, and doesn't penetrate either. Just my worthless opinion, but for hunting, the 45 ACP is just too large in diameter, too slow, with not enough shank/length on the bullet. And if you try to move up to a 300gr bullet, there's no case capacity left. Just get an LAR Grizzly in 45 Win Mag, if you must shoot a 45 cal auto loader. Tony ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/tXVSuT4.jpg)
Last edited by TonyRumore; 04/10/23.
Run it up, until you blow it up, then back it down a bit.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,982 Likes: 6
Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,982 Likes: 6 |
Here's a pair of 45 ACP bullets (230gr Winchester SXT) fired from a 5" 1911 into a 200 pound hog. Penetration of both bullets was about three inches. Not quite the penetration shown by the worthless gel tests. You know you're in trouble when the bullet doesn't expand, and doesn't penetrate either. Just my worthless opinion, but for hunting, the 45 ACP is just too large in diameter, too slow, with not enough shank/length on the bullet. And if you try to move up to a 300gr bullet, there's no case capacity left. Just get an LAR Grizzly in 45 Win Mag, if you must shoot a 45 cal auto loader. Tony When handgun bullets do as those did they tend to tumble and mot penetrate
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Apr 2008
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2008
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I shot one of those 45 win mags, just about like a 44 mag.
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,480
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2004
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I have a friend, a young woman I took to the range last year. She had a Glock model 19 and it kept stovepiping on her. I had read about the issue with limp wristing Glocks so I tried it and it happened to me a couple of times before I got through a magazine.
I guess my problem is maybe becoming careless in my grip. I’ve shot who knows how many thousands of rounds through revolvers over the years but have never owned a semi-auto. If I’ve got a bear on top of me and I have to shoot it with a mangled off-hand I would rather not have to worry about my grip.
Having said that, I know full well that there are a lot of things that can go wrong with revolvers.
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Joined: May 2020
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: May 2020
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When I was young. I didn't know anything about how to test bullets. No internet, and I didn't read much. I was very curious, and used all manner of objects to see what different bullets might do. For handguns I used a cast iron skillet buried in a damp sand berm. Back then I saw that most HP's lost their jackets, and the lead core broke up. The semi jacketed flat nose bullets also lost their jackets, but the lead core tended to stay together.
... @Earlyagain, is that you? I haven't seen you in a while. Have you seen Teach or Snake around? Anyway, I don't know why you'd use HP bullets on a big bear. My priorities would be Shot Placement, Penetration Depth then Expansion. If I had to choose, I'd take the first two and the third (Expansion) would be the icing on the cake, if I can have it also. If the Shot Placement and Penetration Depth are already there, I wouldn't be too concerned about Ft-lbs or Velocity as their quantity, by previous description, would already be sufficient to get the job done on a big bad bear.
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Joined: Jan 2001
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 11,034 Likes: 5 |
I have a friend, a young woman I took to the range last year. She had a Glock model 19 and it kept stovepiping on her. I had read about the issue with limp wristing Glocks so I tried it and it happened to me a couple of times before I got through a magazine.
I guess my problem is maybe becoming careless in my grip. I’ve shot who knows how many thousands of rounds through revolvers over the years but have never owned a semi-auto. If I’ve got a bear on top of me and I have to shoot it with a mangled off-hand I would rather not have to worry about my grip.
Having said that, I know full well that there are a lot of things that can go wrong with revolvers. The very same thing happened to a friend mine and also my wife …..when shooting his Glock 9mm (model ?). I shot the pistol and had no issues. I recalled that “stovepipping” was from “limp wristing”! After a brief discussion…..they were both shooting without issue! My wife has a few nines, and has shot several others…..this time was her only “stovepiping” issue! memtb
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
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Joined: Jul 2020
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Campfire Member
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@Earlyagain, is that you? I haven't seen you in a while. Have you seen Teach or Snake around? .[/quote] It's me :-)
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 17,148 Likes: 5
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2004
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I shot a 329 PD w hardcast 255gr the owner said were pretty warm.
It was not bad. Jumpy, but not bad.
My concern w buying one is my screwed up wrist. Until doc finds out why its messed up, Im not shooting any .44 magnums. Proly a stress fracture from work.
Found a used 329pd for under a K. Sure is tempting, even w bum hand LOL Had one when they first came out. Hated it. And I’ve been shooting hard kicking max loads out of 4” & 5” barreled big bore handguns for most of my adult life. Even with “medium loads” of a 260 gr WFN LBT Hard cast bullets at 1100 fps, “quick” follow up shots are next to impossible. Not to mention my hand feeling like a Fuqking mule kicked it after shooting and stinging and being numb for the rest of the day after extended range sessions. ALSO, the loads were bad about “jumping the crimp” from the recoil, and binding up the cylinders. My take on the 329 PD is you couldn’t give me another one. Even for FREE. I’ll stick with my old Glock 20 loaded with 16 rounds of the Buffalo Boar Outdoorsman 220 gr hard cast loads any day of the week and twice on Sunday. It’s Uber reliable and has never failed to feed or go bang after many thousands of rounds. And reasonably “fast” recovery for multiple hits on target or easy with practice. If I didn’t have that, I’d definitely go with one of my 1911’s with a hard cast 250 gr WFN LBT bullet at 950 fps that I load which is very similar to the load Mackay Sagebrush sells and uses. And I wouldn’t fill the least bit “underarmed” with it in bear country as I know how well I can shoot with it and have seen the results on numerous large feral hogs I’ve shot with it at the Ranch. A couple which charged after sticking with an arrow while bow hunting at very close range. I’m not in big bear country nor do I expect to be, but in that vein we do have the odd cougar roaming our Loess hills, river bottoms, and woodlots, strange as it may seem. So I don’t need a 44 mag. However, I’m on my second S&W 329. I pounded myself pretty good with the first one, but since I’ve come to see it as a near perfect revolver for the 44 Special. If one hand loads, there are many possibilities. But even Buff Bore, Double Tap, Underwood, etc load a 240-255 gr hard casts at about a 1000 fps for the Special, which will probably be somewhere in the middle 900’s out of the 4+” barrel. These loads have been proven to be plenty (penetration) for deer, black bear, and others. Like the loads Sagebrush mentions. Meanwhile there is Lightweight carry; light recoil, yet enough velocity for deep penetration for most purposes. Might even work on the big bears with the right person under the right circumstances which seems always true anyway regardless…
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 10,052 Likes: 6
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 10,052 Likes: 6 |
I've carried a 329 pd a lot in the grizzly filled woods of Island park. It seems like all the bears in Yellowstone head there during bow season to feed on gut piles. Lazercast used to make a very wide nosed 310g 22bhn wnfpgc bullet that u loaded at 1200 fps from the 329.
As I got older, weaker, and smarter I realized I couldn't shoot that load anymore. I've since stepped down to the speer 270g jsp at about 1100. It might expand a little bit at 1100 but it doesn't expand much and digs pretty deep. I run the same bullet in my 444p marlin and it does expand quite a bit at 2200fps but still holds together.
My new 432 hammer mold from m&p should put me near 260g for a flat point. I'll get something worked up with it that the 329 hopefully likes. I'm thinking a flat nose at 1100 should work well.
Bb
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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But a 4" 44mag is going to move a 240gr HP 1209-1400fps - a power level far beyond a 10mm. I wonder if a 240gr XTP @1300fps would penetrate far enough on a 500+ pound bear? That beats 10mm, but not by as much as you think. 200 gr hardcast DoubleTap loads chronographed 1315 fps from my Glock 20. That 10mm load is almost certain to out penetrate a 44 caliber HP. And the 44 caliber bullet is only 29/1000" larger in diameter. About 1/2 the thickness of a dime. I don't live in big bear country, but I've camped in Yellowstone twice and left the 44 at home in favor of 10mm. Having a smaller, more compact gun holding 16 rounds vs 6 that could have an attached light was more important to me than a small increase in power. And I do live where 200-500 lb black bear are pretty common. State record is 673 lbs. https://www.wideopenspaces.com/673-pound-black-bear-may-new-georgia-state-record/that 10mm load has killed at least a few Cape buffalo. i'd trust it for bear defense
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
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