How hard is it to remove this lock? Have read that it is "do-able" Have also heard horror storys of this lock becoming engaged from recoil. Any truth to this? Have two S&W's with the lock, and haven't had a problem...YET!
Thanks!
Virgil B.
vbsr,
there are so many sweet old revolvers on the market that i can see very little reason to purchase new...
particularly with poorly thought out features designed to disable the weapon they are a part of....
I dunno, mine came out of the box unlocked and I threw away the key. I never even think about it being there.
No problems.
It seems that the "lock-ups" are most likely on the heavier kicking and/or lightweight (scandium) guns.
I don't think anyone is in a position to proclaim that the odds of a lock-induced failure are greater than say the ejector rod unscrewing or getting crap under the extractor and tieing up the gun.
Guide to lock removal.
S&W Lock Removal MM
Had a 642 lock up on me, third round out of the box. 158gr SWCs.
If you do not stick the paperclip all the way through the spring strut you won't need the twister.
If you simply remove the lock, then you�re left with a hole in the left side of the gun, and an open slot next to the hammer. If you pocket carry, this is a prime opportunity for dust, dirt and pocket lint to get into the inner workings of your revolver. Revolvers are not so forgiving of such things. I think the better alternative is to just make the lock inactive, while keeping it in place. The lock tab has a tet that sticks out, which engages a slot in the hammer; this is what locks up the action. Simply disassemble the gun, file that tet down flat, and reassemble. The gun looks exactly the same, and you have no, open holes or slots to allow dirt and debris into your action, or any offending lock.
I dunno, mine came out of the box unlocked and I threw away the key. I never even think about it being there.
No problems.
how are you gonna unlock it when it locks itself???
If you simply remove the lock, then you�re left with a hole in the left side of the gun, and an open slot next to the hammer. If you pocket carry, this is a prime opportunity for dust, dirt and pocket lint to get into the inner workings of your revolver. Revolvers are not so forgiving of such things. I think the better alternative is to just make the lock inactive, while keeping it in place. The lock tab has a tet that sticks out, which engages a slot in the hammer; this is what locks up the action. Simply disassemble the gun, file that tet down flat, and reassemble. The gun looks exactly the same, and you have no, open holes or slots to allow dirt and debris into your action, or any offending lock.
True, but if you EVER sell the gun, you'd best return it to original condition if the lock appears to be in place but is inactive. Otherwise, you're asking for a law suit, and in the current climate possibly some jail time if someone is injured or killed from acting stupidly.
If you simply remove the lock, then you�re left with a hole in the left side of the gun, and an open slot next to the hammer. If you pocket carry, this is a prime opportunity for dust, dirt and pocket lint to get into the inner workings of your revolver. Revolvers are not so forgiving of such things. I think the better alternative is to just make the lock inactive, while keeping it in place. The lock tab has a tet that sticks out, which engages a slot in the hammer; this is what locks up the action. Simply disassemble the gun, file that tet down flat, and reassemble. The gun looks exactly the same, and you have no, open holes or slots to allow dirt and debris into your action, or any offending lock.
Yep, that's they best solution & is what I've done on the 2 I have.........used a surface grinder.
MM
there are millions of older Smith & Wessons out there for sale.
Yep......the perfect solution. I've performed that task several times and I feel it's the best approach to the problem, whether real or imagined (the problem, that is).
I did purchase 4 of the pre-lock 642's when S&W offered them up recently. No unsightly internal lock holes in the frame, no lock whatsoever.......the good 'ole days.
More than a few incidents reported of IL issues with S&W revolvers. Whether we've personally experienced them or not, I just couldn't live with that possibility. Suppose that's why we have insurance and wear seat belts........one never knows.
I do what I can do the minimize such "surprises"............
Thanks for the replys!
As stated, no problems....YET! Sounds like kevingibson has the best "fix" for the lock. Also, as stated, don't want to leave myself open for lawsutes. Now, I gotta decide...
Thanks for the insight!
Virgil B.
Our gunshop sells a tad over 150 Smiths a year and we are in contact with numereous other shops in our area. There hasn't been an incident of a lock failure ever reported among us since they were introduced. OTOH, anything or any component can fail on any machine. Is this similar to transfer bar safeties on single action revovlers? Again, no malfunctions reported. How about integral safties on rifles. We haven't had any reported issues here, either. Ruger has integral locks on their single action series and their Mark III series -- no failures reported. Bersa has integral locks as well -- no failures reported. Combined, these sales represent thousands of firearms over the past several years.
Will there be failures on the S&W integral lock. Certainly there will as simple product of numbers, but, I suspect it will be less than other revolver related failures that cause the firearm to malfunction, such as frame mounted firing pins, loose ejector rods that bind the cylinder, magazines on pistols that fail, ad nauseum. Far more critical to handgun problems is the type of owner maintenance or failures to maintain. As an example, there have been three cases in the last year where the cylinder was bound up simply because the owner neglected cleaning under the ejector plate and accumulated crud caused the problem.
We get to choose those things we consider critical and we get to align ourselves with any wave of hysteria that appeals to us solely on the basis of our predispositions or the inconsequential "chatter" on some subjects on websites and forums. And such it is, IMO, with the Smith and Wesson integral locks. A non issue, really.
Maybe not but I know of one that did repeatedly. Enough for me not to bet my life on one. More importantly it is a matter of principle, S&W succumbed by making them with a lock. Until they make them without a lock, I for one will not purchase a new one.
More importantly it is a matter of principle, S&W succumbed by making them with a lock. Until they make them without a lock, I for one will not purchase a new one.
Good Morning Elk Hunter. There are a number of enthusiasts that reflect this point of view. That said, does this apply across the board to manufacturers that have integral safety locks on their firearms?
So far I have seen only one, a 642 that repeatedly locked itself when firing, sent it back to Smith and the customer now has sever hundred rounds down range with no further problems.
More importantly it is a matter of principle, S&W succumbed by making them with a lock. Until they make them without a lock, I for one will not purchase a new one.
Good Morning Elk Hunter. There are a number of enthusiasts that reflect this point of view. That said, does this apply across the board to manufacturers that have integral safety locks on their firearms?
It does if it requires a key.
To each their own, but...........I think that it would be prudent for anyone interested in S&W's internal lock failures to go to the S&W forum site and search for "Internal Lock Failures". If and when you or anyone else does, might I make a suggestion? Grab about a Hummer sized bag of popcorn and a rack of your favorite beverage before doing so.......there's alot of reading to be had.
As a member on that board as well, I've yet to come across any "hysterical" members as yet. I have come across rather a large # of members, however, that have had such a failure.
When it comes down to it, any reader of such posts, there or here, has a decision to make. Calling others experiences or their reading of others experiences "hysterical" or inconsequential chatter", IMHO, is to deny the validity of such posts which only try to warn those inquisitive enough to ask or those that seek out some direction and/or guidance in the matter. Can't imagine what one could hope to gain by lying about their S&W internal locking mechanism malfunctioning. Recent posts made in this thread alone by members I believe are beyond repute also verify that these failures do occur.
No reason to discount what others have experienced and also no reason to believe that you and your fellow GS owners aren't relating exactly what you have witnessed (or not) either. But your 150 per year sales of S&W's obviously pales in comparison to the #'s of IL'd S&W's produced and sold. Not all of the infamous Pinto's gas tanks exploded each time they were rear-ended either. Yet some still continued to drive them long after they were known to exhibit such behavior, while others chose not to.
Stating the possibilities and possible fix, without being demeaning or sarcastic, is obviously much less of an emotional based approach, but an approach offered with no less concern and validity.....IMHO. Certainly a much smaller # of S&W IL'd firearms will ever exhibit such malfunctions as opposed to those that will faithfully run trouble free, but for those that do malfunction in their owners hands at the worst possible moment while in the worst possible scenario...........hardly "inconsequential", at least to my way of thinkin'.
YMMV......................
I have exactly 1 copy of a new S&W an airweight in .32 H&H with a lock. If I were going to go inside the gun and file the lock per Kevin's commments in order to make it inactive, I would send it to S&W and tell them "I bought this gun and the lock don't work" for a free relocking before I sold it. The whole world is so darn anti Darwin these days, seat belt laws, helmet laws, anti smoking, anti drug, pistol locks! Natural selection just cannot fix the problems any more.
Michael Bane (Shooting Gallery, Best Defense, etc. on Outdoor Channel) has had the internal lock malfunction on his 329PD a couple of times, once while filming an episode for next year's Shooting Gallery. If you go to:
http://michaelbane.blogspot.com/search?q=329pd you can read about it.
I took the internal lock parts out of my 329PD and live with the hole in the frame. I can always put it back together if I sell it.
Someone needs to make and market a black rubber plug that fits very securely in the hole left from removing the lock mechanism.
vbs - I think some people have too much time on their hands. I shoot an MP340 with 135 grain Speer Gold Dot .357s and a wide variety of .38 both std and +p.
I also shoot with a number of shooters regularly. I have not no problems. And I've never heard of a problem. Just ignore the lock and enjoy the gun.
I HAD to have this AirWeight 32 H&R, and LOVE it! Just wish it didn't have the "lock". Think I will live with it untill I have a problem. I always carry a back-up. Anyone know if S&W made a 32 H&R in a J frame befor the lock was "invented" ?
Thanks!
Virgil B.
......then either you haven't taken the time to read other members posts in this very thread (with first hand experience) leading up to your post or you're just unwilling to believe anyone else but yourself. Not a slam, but it's gotta be one or the other.....? Either way, not nearly solid enough foundation to suggest to others that they should totally disregard any such possibilities and/or others suggestions to rectify said issues.
Once again......take a few minutes to access S&W's forum and do a search for "Internal Lock Malfunctions". There are literally pages upon pages of very first hand experiences of the aformentioned. Not likely that each one is initiated by a Ruger/Colt/Taurus employee or brand loyalist. So what would be their motivation to lie to other members.....?
Most posts here make no suggestion to either keep the IL as is or to disable the device. I and most others simply stated that IF the owner of such a firearm desires to disable the IL on S&W revolvers, the best method we found was as was stated earlier in this thread. "Just ignore the lock and enjoy the gun" seems rather a strange way to approach an issue as potentially important as this, especially when it's obvious that you have taken no time whatsoever to study and review the topic. Had you done even a minimal amount of a search regarding this subject, you would have clearly seen that there are numerous accounts of such malfunctions.
Suggesting that "some people have too much time on their hands" is an odd and reaching statement, at best. I've never thought that a thorough researching, especially of issues such as this, was what any responsible person would essentially call a waste of time. Protecting me and mine, while figuring the most prudent approach and then method to do so..........much more common and reasonable, IMHO.
Perhaps others should spend some portion of any idle time that they may have actually researching such potentially impactful issues, rather than trying to disparage those that actually have done at least some amount of homework on important subjects such as this.
Exactly what many on the S&W forum have asked, TRH.
There are several "fixes" to your question posted on that forum.....choosing which one works for you is all that's left to do. Most "fixes" are detailed quite well and is only limited by your motivation (and a few tools) to do so.
That is why by only removing the tit on the flag was the choice I made, as confirmed by the info I sent to you at your request many months prior. KG also found this "fix" the best approach for him as well, which only helped to bolster my feelings on both this "issue" and potential "fix".
Good luck to you if you choose to go that route. If I can do it, I certainly know that you can as well. I've no doubt that you've more skills than I in that arena and it was a simple fix for me...........
Take care................
Thanks for the link!
It comes as no real surprise after much eading about such malfunctions, but to have it on film.........fairly convincing that at least it does occur and that people aren't making this all up, for whatever reasons........
.
Thanks again..........
I know I would sure hate to pull my legally concealed handgun on a "perp" and be the one in a bazillion that MY gun goes "click" insteand of BANG! Might get an honest person killed. How about tapping the hole where the IL was removed, and loc-tite a filler screw in the hole? Should keep dust mites out. Still thinking on this one.
Thanks!
Virgil B.
If you shop around all new S&W come in two flavors now. With and without lock. It's harder to find the ones without but I just bought a new one without. Look at the internet sites and they'll pop up. They may even be in the catalog now.
From reading quite a bit on this subject, the "lockless" offerings were a short/limited run due to older frames now being utilized due to the not-so-long-ago metals price upswing.
When S&W caved to the powers that be/were, they switched over quickly to the IL'd version on all those originally pre-locked models. There were still a rather large # of non-IL'd frames set aside. With the economy the way that it is and the huge metal prices increase several moons ago, it is my understanding that S&W couldn't afford to leave those pre-locked frames idle any longer........therefore the limited run of certain pre-locked models.
I picked up 4 of the pre-locked 642's believing that this is/was the case and so far, I think it has more than a little basis in fact........unfortunately. A few other models were offered in the pre-lock as well, seemingly due to the same set of circumstances.
I only hope that S&W see's, due to these new pre-locked models selling very well, that there is a huge market for such non-locked handguns, especially these days. I do know that many have sent emails and other communications to S&W when they caved and let them know that they wouldn't be purchasing anymore of their products unless they changed there stance on that particular issue.
Maybe they are comin' around.....just maybe.
** I had read that there were some 3,500 to 4,500 642 framed pre-locks produced and then distributed somewhat evenly to their biggest customers. I got all 4 of mine from a FFL friend who probably ordered some 15 more for other guys we know. Best part, they were priced no different, at the time, from the IL'd versions being sold. As far as the one's people are able to locate now either on the 'net or otherwise, I imagine there's a bit of a "if you snooze, you lose" fee involved. Perfectly understandable and perhaps well worth a few $'s more if one is now desiring a pre-locked S&W. They surely allow one to bypass any consideration of how or why the IL should be removed. Purchasing one now also ensures that you will always have one, which is a much safer bet than just hoping that S&W starts producing them in your lifetime again, without the lock........blind faith.....IMHO **
Is S&W still bound by the Clinton's regulation to still have their handguns made with the internal lock? Is their an expiration date to this agreement?
Is S&W still bound by the Clinton's regulation to still have their handguns made with the internal lock? Is their an expiration date to this agreement?
Nope. But the main reason they put the locks on is because the manufacturer of the lock also owns S&W.
Montanaman posted a video, I can't get it to play. any "hints" on what to do?
Thanks!
Virgil B.
Still can't figure out how to play the instruction video. Anybody care to expland the procedure for removing/modifying the IL?
Do I have to remove the sideplate?
Thanks!
Virgil B.
FINELY got the video to play...Looks pretty complex to me.
Thanks!
Virgil B.
To each their own, but...........I think that it would be prudent for anyone interested in S&W's internal lock failures to go to the S&W forum site and search for "Internal Lock Failures". If and when you or anyone else does, might I make a suggestion? Grab about a Hummer sized bag of popcorn and a rack of your favorite beverage before doing so.......there's alot of reading to be had.
As a member on that board as well, I've yet to come across any "hysterical" members as yet. I have come across rather a large # of members, however, that have had such a failure.
When it comes down to it, any reader of such posts, there or here, has a decision to make. Calling others experiences or their reading of others experiences "hysterical" or inconsequential chatter", IMHO, is to deny the validity of such posts which only try to warn those inquisitive enough to ask or those that seek out some direction and/or guidance in the matter. Can't imagine what one could hope to gain by lying about their S&W internal locking mechanism malfunctioning. Recent posts made in this thread alone by members I believe are beyond repute also verify that these failures do occur.
No reason to discount what others have experienced and also no reason to believe that you and your fellow GS owners aren't relating exactly what you have witnessed (or not) either. But your 150 per year sales of S&W's obviously pales in comparison to the #'s of IL'd S&W's produced and sold. Not all of the infamous Pinto's gas tanks exploded each time they were rear-ended either. Yet some still continued to drive them long after they were known to exhibit such behavior, while others chose not to.
Stating the possibilities and possible fix, without being demeaning or sarcastic, is obviously much less of an emotional based approach, but an approach offered with no less concern and validity.....IMHO. Certainly a much smaller # of S&W IL'd firearms will ever exhibit such malfunctions as opposed to those that will faithfully run trouble free, but for those that do malfunction in their owners hands at the worst possible moment while in the worst possible scenario...........hardly "inconsequential", at least to my way of thinkin'.
YMMV......................
+1 A friend of mine also had a 329 that locked on it's own. He got rid of it. I suspect a lot of those that lock on their own don't go back to the shop that sold them. Way to many illustrations to ignore the issue. I'm just glad Smith brought out that run of 642's.
I have yet to buy my first S&W w/a lock. I had a Taurus 41 Tracker, and it came w/o the key, it was traded off.
I just can't feel good about a gun with a keylock, and prefer not to bother. As above, many good ole S&W's around.
Good to know if you own and need to 'fix' one - thanks for sharing.