It had been named better! I mean, 10mm sounds like "Just a teensy bit bigger than the puny, ineffective 9mm" to most, I think.

How about

400 Automag!

400 Magnum Express!

411 Leviathon!

40 Super!

A little bit of marketing in the cartridge nomenclature and I think that many more of us would have and be shooting 10mm auto pistols. I sure like mine, but it is often a pain in the buttinsky to get ammo or loading supplies. And when non shooters ask me what I carry (IF they learn that I carry - which is damned few) and I reply 10mm I get a blank stare. I would much prefer to reply with "400 Automag" or something similar and such a name would more properly relate what kind of cartridge this is and what it is capable of. Possibly the single most effecticve semi auto pistol cartridge that can be housed in a normal sized and weight pistol. 50AE and the Desert Eagle guns are all anomolies and big honkin freakazoids in my view. But a Glock 20SF or a 1911 in 10mm? THERE one has a packable, portable useful firearm that can do double duty on big game or engage and assailant at 100 yards or more with a reasonable chance of scoring deadly hits.

What do you all think? Would a better, more knarly sounding name have helped out my favorite autopistol cartridge?

I think I just might have my barrel or slide re stamped "400 Automag Super" and order some brass so stamped.....

I DID have Jack Huntington re time and set mine up for my sorta hot loads, kind of like he does for a 1911 in 45 Super or 460 Rowland, so why not?

I think you're wishin' and wantin' something sorta silly. Either someone knows about the 10mm, or they don't, they're either well-informed, or dullards.

Why confuse the issue? Let 'em be ignorant if they choose, and a lot of them do. Their loss, like the .41 Mag, or the .38/40, most have no inkling of what good cartridges they're missing.

The 10mm had it's chance, the late '80s were a heady time for new pistols. There were a LOT of 10mms, Colt, S&W, AMT, EAA Witness, Glock, etc., all good guns, and just a few of the many. My Delta Elite was a damned fine pistol, and if not for financial embarassment, I'd still have it and still be shooting it, but the .45s I have will do the same job without much drama, although they sure don't shoot as flat or as fast.

Sometimes the best ones slip away, it's a fact.

Yeah, they shoulda named it the 41 Action Express, everybody would have rushed out and bought one.

I do have my tongue planted firmly in cheek here, although I think the idea has some merit. The 40 Smith and Wesson is not carrying a barn burner name and seems to be doing allright... <G>

For a cartridge that was never adopted by the military, it's done pretty well. Certainly hung on better than the .41 Action express, .41 Special, or .45 GAP And its little brother the .40 S&W is doing well, in the service pistol niche. The full length 10mm I think has well found its niche, in a variety of large frame autoloaders, everything from Glocks, to 1911's, to Revos.

It IS making something of a comeback lately, for sure. Was on the border of obsolence for a decade or so.

For one thing Mark, the 10mm ain't that great. There were already existent rounds and once people started really putting the horsepower behind 45 autos, that was easily seen.

The "10mm" is actually the 10mm Norma Magnum, IIRC. The 9mm could be several cartridges, since several are 9mm. Most folks call it the 9mm Parabellum or 9x19 when they want to be formal. I don't think the moniker "10mm" had much to do with the 10's demise. The 40 S&W going over so very well in Law Enforcement and the 10mm's failure to completely win over the FBI was more the beginning and end of it.

How much is a Delta Elite Stainless, NIB, worth right now? Sorry for the hijack but you go to a lot of gunshows.

That was my first thought. The members of the general public all seem to know that the FBI ditched the 10mm. They don't know or care what the reason was, or if it was a valid reason. They don't know anything about the 10mm itself. They just know that it "failed" with the FBI, and a well-funded agency like that must be on top of things. So, the 10mm is "bad."

I like the 400 Automag name. But in the PC LEO world that might have been frowned upon. A problem with the FBI, might have to many skirts in the ranks complaining about the size and recoil of the smith and Wesson.

I can hear it now. Officer what do you carry on duty? My duty weapon. Dah. What is that? Oh,the one usually carried on duty........it is a 400 AutoMag. That sounds powerful, enough to dismember my clients dead honor student. Yadda yadda yadda.

The biggest failure of the 10mm in the beginning was the Bren Ten pistol, high priced piece of junk and when the FBI turned it down that just about nailed the lid closed on the coffin for it. It is a great round,but just not in the same class as the revolver in 41 magnum or 44. Now that i offered my opinion , i love the 10mm and will use mine for hunting every chance i get.

"recoil sensitive" FBI agents doomed the 10mm

If I feel the need for a 10mm, I reach for a M-57 S&W which is chambered in a 10mm cartridge that matters.

MM

Well this day and of the dipshit general buying public anythig with magnum and short in the name just might sell like free money even if it did nothing more than something than had been around 50-100 years

I believe the 10 to be the perfect semiauto cartridge. If you want a magnum auto. I have owned 10s since the bren ten. I was lucky enough to get one with a magazine so was able to use it. I was stupid and sold it when the Deltas came out and have had several of them. I currently have an EAA Witness in 10 and love it. It fits my hand like a glove and I have not had any of the feeding issues that others have complained about. Around 1980 I had several 45s and ordered a 451 detonics barrel and installed it in one of my gold cups. It required cutting 308 cases down but it was a hoot to shoot also. But as with everything that I have had that was cool, someone always wanted it more that I did at the time and I sold it for a ridulous amount of money at the time.

I would love a 10 but the 45 super route looks pretty good and the way I am going to go now.

I think the 10mm would have sold just fine if the pistol that was designed for it would have been produced and sent to market as promised. The failure of the Bren Ten hurt the 10mm. By the time that Colt entered the market with their 10mm 1911 the 10mm was no longer lustrous and sells were not brisk.

IMHO the 10mm is not superior to the 45 Super. I prefer the larger bore in a side arm

Still is

If you have a 45 Super you've covered the 10. I love my 45 Super.

I'd rather have a Glock 20, and I do. It ain't going anywhere.

What load do you shoot out of your G20?


Travis

Just factory so far. I bought Buffalo Bore 180's (couldn't find 220's) for last summers' Bob Marshall ramble. I need to get on the Dillon "list" for a 550 conversion and dies. They are backordered on most things a month or more. Midway is backorder on brass as well.

I'm going to do this one right. Trijicon HD sights, fluff and buff with a Zevtec Race connector, and a Storm Lake ported barrel

Are those loads pretty warm? I've never shot or chrony'd them.


Travis

Underwood had 220 gr hard cast loads in stock last week. i bought 500 for the G20. it took 6 weeks or so of watching the web site to get some.

i've just installed Novak night sights and am kicking the idea of buying a KKM compensated barrel for it.

Those is good speeds...

I think I'm going to play with the 135's next.


Travis

yea, the Buffalo Bore are supposed to run about that fast, but are ok to run in Colts, while Underwood says theirs is not for Colts. starting from scratch with the 10mm since the shortage kinda cramps the options. Top Brass had brass a while ago but i fumbled and missed out.

I got another 500 HAP's the other day. Can't wait for this bullschit to end so we can go back to do trying everything...


Travis

Underwoods 230 grain 45 super at 1100 FPS does not seem like a bad load. Wish they loaded hard cast bullets in the 45 super.

I'm not recoil sensitive in the least. One of my favorite guns that I own is a Ruger Blackhawk in 45LC that spits out Corbon 300gr bullets at around 1350fps.

That's far more recoil than my G29 in 10mm had, on it's hottest load. Glocks just do a good job at spreading out the recoil.

That said, there is a ton of reasons that I sold my 10mm and went to a 9mm Glock 19 for defensive purposes.

If I ever decide to revisit the 10mm, it will be in the Glock 20. It won't be my primary defensive handgun although it can serve that duty. I'd just love to hunt with it!

Buffalo Bore loads a 255 grain hard cast at 1090 FPS. I have some of those and they hit hard

I chrono'ed the Underwood 230's out of my 45 Super at 1130 Fps

yea, mine is more for backcountry duty. i do have other, better options for more social situations.

The 180 BB loads had a tad more snap than factory Remington, but you would only notice it if you were looking for it. Shooting 100rds at the range is no problem. Shooting 500 might be a problem. I think I saved few of the BB 180's to chrono, but I keep forgetting my chrony when I go to the range.

One would be hard pressed to find a better backcountry handgun.

I think the super is for me, I was torn regards the 10 and pure hunting cartridge, however the super will do the same thing and change a spring to shoot commonly available 45ACP.

I did get a chance to try and find the red dot in an RMR today. I am pretty convinced Good iron sights will work better than a red dot on a pistol, it takes a bit to find the dot.

The 10mm would have sold much better if it was the 40 S&W....

Just sighted in a Colt Double Eagle yesterday; I love the round, but not everyone does, because it is what it is:

Too hot for mainstream and too mild for the hardcore.

I'd not hesitate to get a Colt Defender if they ever made it in a 10mm (they won't).

That is the unfortunate space the Super 40 occupies....

I freely admit to lovin' the 40.


Travis

To an extent. I think the Bren Ten was a fine gun from all accounts, but there just weren't any of them when people wanted them. Then the luster was off of the cartridge by the time other, more affordable options, existed. Plus the fact that there were three nearly identical cartridges available all at once. .40 caliber has never been very popular anyway. The 41 Mag. and 38 WCF are both excellent cartridges, that just weren't/aren't very popular. Heck, maybe for its time the 38 WCF was the most popular of all of them.

I like the 10 and get itchy for one every once in awhile even though I admit to really having no need for one. If I could find one I could lay hands on and get it for a decent price, I'd like to try out a Witness in this caliber.

If you go by how many different loads are available on Midway's website as a measure of relative popularity, the 10mm ranks 9th in handgun cartridges with (51) loads.

It beats the .357sig(35), .41mag(29) and .44special(33).

I don't go by that.

That's nothin'. I rode the school bus with this kid who freely admitted to lovin' some pigs.

this weekend i finally got around to casting some 10mm bullets. wheelweight, lynotype, and some lead free solder mixture. They are in a 200grain style inspired by elmer, a true keith bullet. The other part is in addition to solids, the mould threw normal hollowpoints and pentad shaped hollowpoints.
started running them through the sizer and lubing them today.
I think they are going to be fun to shoot. eventually i might oven bake them too.

I Always thought that the .40 S&W caliber was Gay... Only Real Men shoot 10mm's !

Ought Oh, bet i got a GFY coming from Travis, now

I like my Delta Elite 10mm a lot because it can - and does - serve several duty's or roles for me. Daily carry, hunting, backwoods carry, plinking or target shooting, bedstand gun, truck gun etc. etc.

My do it al load is a 180gr Gold Dot over 14.6gr of AA#9 in only brand new Starline nickel plated cases for a snoutspeed of 1375, chronographed. That load is probably a bit too stiff for a factory issue 1911 style pistol in 10mm but mine has a Storm Lake barrel, mega stiff recoil spring and was set up and timed specifically for those loads (I sent a full box of 50 down with the gun) by Jack Huntington at JRH custom guns. JWP475 reffered me to Jack and I am really glad he did. Thanks JWP475!

Thanks to all who opined here, it has been an interesting and fun discussion, typical of a virtual hot stove league type of chatter. Mucho fun! For me, I lke MY 10mm a lot. As always YMMV <g>

I have had a table or two at several gunshows already this year and cannot recall seeing a SS Delta Elite for sale at one. Sorry to dissapoint, but they do not seem to be very available.

just curious what recoil spring weight are you using in your delta elite? Are you using the shock buffs?

Two new ones at the Topeka gunshow I went to Saturday. Different dealers. I think one was like $1150 and the other was like $1350. There was a new Gold Cup there for I think, $1150 as well. Other tens were at least three 20 Glocks. Low was $499 and high was $650. Glocks were all new too.

The first guy I talked to seems to be able to get fairly hard-to-obtain new stuff. I bought my Smith Governor from him and they aren't exactly common even now. He had one of the Delta's.

The 40 covers a lot of ground and I'd say that's been proven with a lot of pocketbooks.

And chronographing most 10mm's could leave their owners a little butt hurt.

Now, GFY.


Travis

have you tried running .40s through your Delta? i've heard it works fine in the G20 but haven't tried it...

I haven't. Probably never will, I have plenty of 10 brass right now.


Travis

45 Super




Why go small

.45 Super is a nice way to go, but since there�s very little factory ammo, the 10mm makes more sense to many.

I�d love to learn how your gunsmith setup your .45 Super.

Not sure what it's good for but I just bought one.

No shock buffers, and I do not know what the spring wieght is in my DE. I know that when I sent it down to Jack Huntington it had a dual spring setup and now it is a single and I also know that it is VERY stiff. I would not recomend it for someone with smaller hands or any hand weakness. Sorry that I cannot be more specific. I have entrusted this pistol to the capable hands of Jack Huntington and our own Kevin Gibson and I trust thier workmanship and knowledge in such matters. I just keep it fed, sorta-maybe clean and lubed and enjoy it!

i really don't know why most factory ammo, in 10mm is downloaded to that of basically a 40s&w. With the exception of some of the specialty makers like doubletap.
It seems like it's a handloaders affair to get real performance out of it.

Aspade, that is a beautiful pistol there! Very sharp looking, big time! And that is a lot of pistol power there. I am sure you will find a use and purpose for it. Calling in and putting the big smackdown on an entire PACK of Wolves, for example....

Come to think of it, that weapon would do yeoman duty on a pack of four legged OR two legged wolves/predators.

The word is that the Sissy agents in the FBI couldn't handle it and wanted something smaller so the didn't have to quit or step back to a desk job where they should have been.

BINGO!

If I am in trouble, I want Kojack, or Steven Segal with a real gun! Not Angie Dickinson or Farrah Fawcett with a snubbie 38!

Thanks safariman, I have some work to do on it yet.

The factory recoil spring is so light that if you push the slide back 1/4" with an empty magazine it can't overcome the follower drag to even return to battery. Supposedly it's 14# but feels more like 10 to me. Good for a 9mm maybe.

I found a guy (henningshootsguns) who made square bottom firing pin stops for these but he doesn't have any right now and isn't doing another batch for a while. Will go with a heavier hammer spring too although I haven't figured out how to take it apart that far yet. The DA trigger is pretty bad to begin with and that will only make it worse but that's what a thumb safety is for.

On the upside, the SA trigger is outstanding, and until 10mm ammo shows up again there's a factory conversion slide for 22LR although it's backordered like everything else right now.

I'd bet there are a lot of novice handgunners that would have a hard time with full house 10mm's. FBI or otherwise.



Travis

I�m not sure how serious of a comment that is�

The full power 10mm is more than most would want for self defense. After Miami, the FBI went out looking for the �ultimate� in a law enforcement handgun, and settled on the 10mm lite. What they were looking for was .45 ACP terminal performance with 9mm barrier penetration, and for the most part, that�s what they got. Right after S&W sold them the 1076 in 10mm, they came up with the .40 S&W cartridge. The FBI had some contractual obligations, so they didn�t switch over to the .40 S&W, but as soon as they were lifted from those contracts, the 1076 was relegated. By that time, very good defense loads had been developed using the FBI�s criteria for .38 Special, 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP; allowing the individual agent some latitude in caliber and weapon choice.

For concealed carry, 10mm guns can be a bit large with the exception of the 1911 or Commander. In full power loads, you�re gaining a good deal of recoil, and more significantly, muzzle blast; neither of which are welcome in a defensive pistol. Notice that even the most professional agents and agencies have never adopted the 10mm. Most view it as more power than they�ll need with some undesirable baggage. Most US SWAT/HRU teams choose the .45 ACP or .40 S&W, and I�d say those are very good choices for their needs. European units almost universally choose the 9mm. All 3 work just fine.

I'd go a step further and say there are probably a lot of law enforcement officials who would not want a 10. Not just novices. If more power was the whole story, then the 454 would be the most popular LE cartridge in the US and not the 40. The 40 is just the cup of tea for those who haven't any faith in 9mm/.357 type cartridges. 10 is more versatile and more of an "expert's" cartridge, IMO anyway.

That's exactly my point. The vast majority of military and LE recruits or trainees are new to handguns.

Not unique to the FBI.



Travis

The 10mm never took off like it coulda 'cause it never starred in any action movies.

IIRC, the full power 10mm came along first, then the notorious FBI Shootout ocurred, then lots of hand-wringing over bullet performance, which then resulted in a neutered 10mm load - 180gr at ~1000fps, and the S&W 1076. There was also talk of 10mm subguns at the time, too.

The 10mm Smiths were great pistols, but big & heavy. At some point S&W realized if they shortened the 10mm, they could squeeze it into 9mm class pistols with alloy frames, which made a much nicer carry and duty weapon. With modern bullets the .40 turned out to be a good performer.

even a 22 from a Ruger LCP will work fine.

Riddle me this. Why is it many shooters consider the 10mm "overpowered" and "uncontrollable", when in fact most 10mm factory loads produce little more than .40s&w performance?

You misspelled LCR.


Travis

Because they haven't shot enough of either.


Travis

It starred weekly in the TV series Miami Vice. The mags for the weapon were so scarce that people used to swarm the sets after filming, looking for ones that had been dropped or otherwise discarded. Don Johnson's character Sonny Crockett was armed with one until they finally dropped it for the Smith 645 due to Dornaus and Dixon going into bankruptcy.

The 10mm isn't even considered anymore because most LE agencies try to use what the big boys use in the FBI, etc. and the FBI dropped it years ago. The 40 gained almost immediate acceptance and after a few years eclipsed the 9mm which had been ruling things since the advent of autopistols after wondernines started becoming available. The ammo for the 10mm when it first came out, was loaded very, very hot by Norma. I believe I still have some of the rounds somewhere. I've got some Winchesters marked "Law Enforcement Only" that IIRC, produced impressive recoil in light guns like the early Delta's or the Wyoming Arms Parker.

Because the FBI considered it so....

Plus, I've never met anybody who's shot one that considered it "uncontrollable". I remember going out to a pond and shooting my Delta Elite side by side with my cousin and his Colt Officer's Model 1911. The recoil was almost identical between the smaller gun with standard FMJ Ball and the Delta 10mm with whatever rounds I was shooting in it at the time, probably Winchester LE loads.

Terms like "uncontrollable" come up when you try and get 25 recruits hitting center mass from the holster in a reasonable amount of time.

180's @ 950 are a lot easier to train with than 180's @ 1,350fps.

Then 10mm is a gun nut round. Ain't for the masses.


Travis

I'm betting pulling the slide back was another difficult ordeal for some.....

Yea break a nail on that slide.

It all basically boils down to what Travis said. FBI recruits & agents could not handle the recoil of the full house 10mm load, thus they couldn't shoot them well enough for all the FBI Agents to Qualify with the 10mm. Period.

I have some of the old Norma FBI loads that a retired Agent gave me years ago. That load with a 200gr HP Chronographs 1400 out of my Kimber 10mm & my Glock 20.
Definately not for everyone.

I shoot a lot of full house loads out of my .44 mags & .41 mags, so I guess that makes me feel like the souped up 10mm loads are pretty tame.
My handloads for my 10mm's are a 180 gr XTP HP going 1350 for deer, hogs, & varmints here at the ranch. I also have a 200 grain LBT Cast bullet load with a maximum load of AA-9 going right at 1400 FPS that I carry while bow hunting in Colorado & New Mexico, where I might encounter Black Bears.
Buffalo Boar has 220 grain LBT type Cast Bullet load that they advertise at around 1375 fps. I wouldn't be afraid of using that load on Grizzlies, if thats all I had on me at the time.

The 10mm has now become more of a specialized hunting round or as Travis put it, a
"gun nut" round. Leave it too the FBI to screw up a great cartridge & at the same time became the start of the 40 S&W cartridge.

While the .40, or the 10mm "Lite" as I like to call it is a proven Law Enforcement duty round with lots of documented shootings to back up its claim to fame, I will stick with my old antique 10mm pistols.
15 +1 rounds of full power 10mm loads in my Glock 20 are damn hard to beat, IMHO.

After I qualified I let my instructor shoot my 45 Super and he handed it back after 3 rounds and said that it kicked too much and hurt his wrist.

I do not find that it kicks much and I find it to be very controllable, but like Travis said a lot of people can not shoot them well and training a raw recruit with one is tough.

530-268-6877

No doubt.


Travis

Yessir, 26lb Wolff springs and a buffer in an all steel 5" 1911 Springfield then go forth with Power Pistol powder 230 gr Hornady or Nosler FMJ flat point bullets in 45 Super brass and your there, run 'em to an easy 1200 fps in my Springfield TM.

Gunner

I just put a bunch of 200gr xtp's over the lights at 1320fps today out of my g20. It ain't no slouch,I have a 329pd that sees a lot of backcountry travel, but the g20 is just more of a good thing.....and has nite sights.....and heaps of firepower....and is cheap enough to not sweat the scuffs.

I have both a Glock 23 and a 20SF..... Slow fire I hit just as well with each..... Firing faster the 23 wins hands down..... I kind of doubt the ".40 short and weak" crowd has tried many side by side comparison shooting drills.....

The 23 is enough smaller and lighter that it makes CC easier for me too....

I bought the 20 SF along with a 6" KKM barrel and it sounds like the same 200 grain HP mold RoninPhx did for hunting.....I have yet to cast a bullet with it so far.... Need to get on that and be ready to repel woodchucks from the garden this Spring..... Hopefully a deer or two this Fall

The only time I would choose a 10MM for primary self defense might be living above the Arctic circle where there was a large population of really big mean drunks all wearing 3 layers of Carharts

I concur as I too have the 23 and 20sf......the 20 is as wide as a Mack truck.

I prefer a lesser spring, my 1911 uses 18.5 pound spring. The lock-up between the slide and barrel has been increased in duration to allow the pressure to drop before the slide up locks

that mold was obtained through a group buy on the cast boolits forum from the guy in slovenia. I mixed a combination of wheelweights, lead free solder, and a little lynotype to get the lead. I bought all of the pins, and it is a four hole mold. So each throw i got one solid, one hollowpoint, one pentad hollowpoint, and kind of a dimpled front on one. They came out real purty, and are fairly hard. Big driving bands, and a big lube groove. They were kind of bumping through the lubrizer so i probably should do a hardness test on them, i think they are pretty hard. I have a kkm regular barrel and a six inch for the 20. I am not really interested in hod rodding them, with the 200grain, 1200 is fast enough for me. I think this is the third mold i have got from slovenia. A 41magnum, and a 45colt saa. They are really top notch molds.

Freudian slip as I have the weak and useless LCP.

Well stated.


Travis

I forgive you.

Montana Marine gave the LCR a dance at the Icebreaker shoot. I think he's in love. Maybe...


Travis

No, I don't think a different name would have done it. It's a gun nut's round. Takes a shooter who understands and appreciates the differences to like it.
For me, you can't run fast enough to give me a .45 Super or anything like it for my 1911's. I don't see any of the SAAMI members loading ammo for it either. Must be a few good reasons I suspect.
Shoot a 10 for while along side a 9mm, a .357, a .45 ACP, or a .41 Magnum and it's appeal becomes apparent. More power and range than the first three and alot easier on the shooter than the .41. All in a very tough, high capacity pistol. Alot to like there. E

RoninPhx.... I have 3 of those made in Slovenia brass molds now.... A 2 hole cut like RCBS .452 270 grain.... Mine throws then at 280 grains using WW and a dab of tin.... I load them in .45 AR loads for my 625 4" and in my .45 Colt Mountain Gun..... Found the load data for newer S&W guns in Handloader Magazine.... Their load data says the AR rounds are pushing 900 fps and the still easy on the gun .45 Colt loads are around 1000 + FPS.

I know for certain that this bullet slams steel plates down much harder than standard .45 ACP loads do....

I read in the Group Buy load results section of the Cast Bullet Forum that the standard round HP bullets expanded MUCH better that the cool looking pentad (sp?) bullets did.....

I also picked up a 4 hole version of a .452 200 grain round nose HP.... It has been very accurate in both my .625 and 3 different 1911s .... Still looking for a woodchuck to preform ballistic testing on.... It has a wide deep HP..... Guessing there will not be any ground hogs making it back to their holes after a center hit with one of these....

I ordered the 4 hole 200 grain 10MM mold with both deep and shallow pins.... Early group buy results suggest the shallow HP is the way to go for air cooled bullets..... If I ever start reloading for the .40 S&W I would try the deep HP.

I went with the 6" barrel so that I could get plenty of velocity using published load data.... I would like to ask the OP to post the picture here that he did on another forum showing the blown case he got...... Maybe I'm just getting old but I stop with max published loads even if I'm not getting the FPS listed in the book and although this has never happened, I would stop if my loads clocked faster that the book max FPS even if I had not yet used as much powder as the "book load".

IMO the 10 MM is NOT a magnum cartridge.... The more folks accept that and understand that it is still very much enough for clean kills on many different big game animals at reasonable range the more popular the 10MM will become.

2nd wind,

I am the OP and I never posted a picture of a blown case on another forum because I don't belong to any other forums. You might have me confused with someone else. My hanloads are under the specs of the original Dorneaus and Dixon/ Norma loadings and do not even create a creased or "smiley face" on my brass and my pistol was set up by a true proffesional to run with my loads so on we shall go. So far quite a few rounds downrange with those loads. I will keep running them, they are not scary hot by any stretch. They are only close to the speeds this cartridge was supposed to run at in the beginning. with the relatively slow burning AA#9 I use, I have little concern about chamber pressure etc.

with the slovenian version of the 270saa rcbs mould, mine are coming out at about 283grains. I had saved a prospectus that looked like the NYC phoenbook, and fired one of those pentad shaped hollowpoints into it. With the 8inch 25-5 I chron'd it at around 1050 to just under 1100fps. It blew a really big hole in that prospectus, and hit the tree on the other side. I have a picture of the spent projectile, it flattened to over .90 of an inch. Just flat impressive. I was casting those 10mm and 41 slugs this weekend and got to thinking of that 45colt. I have a four inch 25-5 that i have shot a few rounds with that bullet/combination, and you are getting similar velocities to the 10mm and 41 in some loads, but a 283grain bullet!! I have pearce's article from handloader on the 270saa, and his stuff works for me.
Must add the first 10mm i will load from that mould will be the dimpled version of a hollow point.

I can remember Bob Milek writing that he would not shoot an FA-83 454 until he saw some pressure data. The 454 was not a SAAMI spec cartridge for quite some time before it was SAAMI'ed. We now know that the 454 is spec'ed in the low 60,000 PSI range

I a self defense mode I'd take the Semi Auto any day. Now if you're talking something big brown and fuzzy I'll take a .475 Limbaugh or a S&W 460. If you can't shoot a 40 or 10mm you need to have a desk job.

Um, yeah it was you Mark.... Normally I'd just chalk it up as a "whatever" but not when you post 14.6 grains of Acurate Arms # 9 behind a 180 grain bullet.... factory data is 1.1 grains below that which is a pretty big deal in a relatively small case like the 10MM.

http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/accurate_load_data_3.5.pdf

Reader beware Internet load data... YMMV

A full house 40 and a full house 10mm are not one and the same. That's why the 40 exists.


Travis

The 10 was the one that the FBI was too wimpy to shoot, therefore much better than the 40, those lawyer types were too puny to handle a real gun, take your own take on that. The 10 is almost a ballistic twi to the 41 mag. People kill BIG stuff with the 41, 10 can do that.
MC

Not all guns are created equal. My kkm barreled g20 with a 22# spring spits cases that are not deformed into a nice tight pile where the stock setup would be asking for trouble.....is it high pressure, yes. Is it acceptable pressure in my setup, yes. Is it fun to have 3200 grains of bullet on tap traveling over 1300.....absolutely.

Underwood Ammo has been getting very nice reviews as fair priced and producing the FPS they claim..... Last time I looked they specifically state that their hottest ammo is not for use in 1911 10 MM pistols....

yeah, i shot a cow elk in november with a .41magnum. the 10 can reach the lower end of the sprectrum of a 41 magnum, but it ain't no 41magnum.

Yeah, but there is no 41mag that holds 15 rounds.

I mailed the payment today for a S&W 610 with 5" barrel. It will be interesting to see what can be done in it, versus an autoloader.

Really? Which forum? I barely can post pictures in THIS forum, have never even tried in any other forum. I joined the 10mm fan club forum for a short while to get some load data, but never tried to post a photo, and I have not logged into that site in a very long time.

A nnumber of my handloads are above book spec but safe in MY guns, and tested as so. Every gun and barrel is a law unto ittself, I use my chronograph to tell me lots, and case observation for other things.

but you are correct, for shure, in always being cautious of any internet posted data. My gun (Aftermarket barrel, springs and more) is specifically set up for those loads, much like a smith would modify another 1911 for 460 Rowland or 45 Super loadings. Someones other guns probably are not.

as you say, your gun is set up, and you use your chrony, and case observation, can you tell us what pressure under either method is being hit with your loads in your gun, and how you arrived at that figure?

^This!^^^ I really love all my .41mag revolvers, but if I could only choose between my .41mag with 6 rounds or my Glock 20 10mm with 16 rounds in black bear country, it's a no brainer! I'm going with my Glock 20 Every Time. That's why I pack the Glock 10mm when I'm bow hunting in the lower 48.

If I'm headed back to Alaska, I'll be packing a .480 Ruger & my 300 Ultra Mag.

if only a Glock could be found with a 1911 trigger.

Please let me know how things turn out. I've a 6.5" and it's WAY more accurate than I can shoot with everything from 40's to 10's. I've still never run it over the chrono and checked it against my other 10's...maybe after turkey season.

45 Super operates at lower pressure than does the 10mm

10mm is much closer to .357mag performance than .41mag performance.

If you can't shoot a 10 you're FBI desk job material.

That's brilliant.


Travis

Really ? Where is this pressure tested data ?
The 1911 was never designed for that level of pressure in that large a case. Even +P ammo for the .45 ACP ( 21-23,000 psi) is way below the 37,500 psi for the smaller 10mm case. Everybody is well aware that the much smaller 10mm case is pretty tough on beefed up 1911's.
Not me.
My experiences with the 10mm is that it can go critical pretty easily. I have no desire to have mine break something on a really warm day. E

Fusion Arms builds custom 10MM 1911s ....you can also order extra barrels in .40 S&W and .357 Sig
http://www.fusionfirearms.com/product-category/handguns/custom-builds/six-inch/

Fusion will also mill slides to accept bases for latest generation micro Red Dots.... Expensive but man it would be fun to shoot.... Thinking that owners of pistols like this would help keep 10MM ammo in production.....

there is tons of data related to the lower pressure 45 Super vs. the higher 10mm pressure with the same bullet weight.

The 45 Super is no where near the 37,500 PSI of the 10mm, now the 460 Rowland is close to that pressure

Underwood 220 gr. hard cast loads in stock now...

LINKY

That 220 would be a pentrating sonofagun! Don't need it out here where a black bear is the biggest and baddest thing in the woods, though. Seeing as my 180 Gold Dot load blew thorugh the chest of a good sized boar in TN and put the big hurt on the tree behind it. Rattler said (He was watching this all go down from another angle) that the tree looked as if someone had thrown a 5 gallon bucket of bark and wood chips against the tree. If I make it back to Alaska and go fishing in brown bear country, I will buy a box of these and pack my Delta Elite with these on tap. I have no fears of this ammo with the way my particular DE is set up. My 180 handloads are the equivalent of these and the Norma loads of 20 or so years ago. BTW, thoe Norma loads were what Colt was working with when they engineered the Delta Elite. My DE came fromColt with a solid rib atop the slide for more weight and to stiffen it as well as dual recoil springs that were pretty heavy duty. Too much angst and hand wringing, IMO, about the weakness of the gun for 10mm loads that are original spec. Good brass like Starline is a must, IMO, for the stiffer loads but if the brass is not giving one "smiley faces" around the unsupported part of the case, the rest of the gun should be OK if properly set up. My Storm Lake barrel 1) supports more of the case and 2) remains locked to the slide longer in the firing sequence to reduce the slide velocity some. Other mods were made as well to handle the stout loads I am feeding it. Even at all that, however, I do not shoot those loads very much. Plain vanilla 10mm loads with the 180's at 1175 are just fine for practice and plinking. They just about dribble out of the gun on the eject, though, since it is set up for more powerful loads.

I have some Hornady 155 factory loads handy, also (I think) some component bullets of the same weight, so I'll see what I can whip up in the next week or so. No AA9 around here, but I know I have some AA7, which oughta drive 155's over 1400 fps out of the Kimber, with its ramped barrel.

I think a 200gr WFN would be pretty sweet in the 610, but not sure I could get it to feed in the Kimber. Either Colt probably would eat it, but the revo loads are gonna wind up stout

Thinking a 610 shoots well in part due to a nice crisp trigger, but compared to an auto, thinking the 'gap' might level the playing field on speed.

Same length, no gap might give the nod to an auto, though granted part of the auto bbl houses the round, so subtract that from length of bore for powder to burn.

yeah, a 3# trigger and the heavy full lug barrel should make it less wiggly.

Agreed the cylinder gap will cost some velocity, too. Which can possibly be made up some with heavier charges. The gun is obviously gonna take anything the brass will take. That's partly why I'd like to get some 200 BFN's, so there less chance of dropping one into a Colt.

I'm interested in seeing how much the gap plays in as well....should be a fun compare/contrast.

Life is full of compromise, LW, almost indestructible, 15 rounds, but thick as a brick with a chitty trigger, or Heavy, 8 rounds, but with a better trigger and sights, or just heavier, good sights and trigger but with ...a gap. I need one of each.

With identical ammo, I'm expecting the 610 will have less velocity, just due to the gap. The difference will come in what is feasible with handloads.

155's @ 1,400fps is lay some smack on some schit.



Travis

Maybe, maybe not. There is more to the velocity of a revolver than just barrel cylinder gap. The cylinder leads and forcing cane also play a major role. The chamber and barrel dimensions of an semi auto pistol also play a role in determining velocity as well.

A revolver that is dimensioned correctly may have more velocity than a poorly dimensioned semi auto

It�s been proven time and time again that cylinder gap contributes only negligible loss in velocity; hardly even detectable. Go forth and don�t sweat that one.

I'm thinking the extra length the cylinder adds may make up for the gap.

Yes, it will also put smilies on cases, too, out of an unsupported barrel - at least in one case I had with a Bar-sto barrel.

Caution is indicated, depending on barrel style.

yeah, and individual guns can vary � some amount, too. I have two Colts and One Kimber, besides this new 610, all with the same nominal barrel length, so it will be interesing to see how they all average.

I learned my lesson last year...


Travis

How many times had the case been reloaded?

for reference, supported Kimber barrel on the left, factory 1980's Colt on the right.



I deleted the smiley case photo off PB, have to see if I still have it at home. The load was below Hornady's max at the time, and ran 155's at 1425 fps out of a Bar-sto barrel. Both Hornady and Accurate have both reduced max loads since then. It is also possible that gun had a firing pin stop issue, which allowed it to unlock too quickly. Darned accurate, though

The firing pin stop is just a �little extra�, it never (or should never) be the difference between safe and unsafe. Lock time is a function of about 90% slide weight, and only around 10% springs (recoil and hammer).

Which is probably why Colt added a full length solid rib to the slide of my Delta Elite.

How about the timing of the barrel and slide separating ways? Jack Huntington believes that if one delays the disengagement of those two via changing the depth and geometry of the barrel/slide locking lugs one effectively increases the slide weight or mass for part of the cycle by keeping it mated with the barrel and by extension the barrels weight/mass for the most critical microseconds of the rearward movement of the slide assembly. Do you concurr with that theory and practice?

In the case of my DE, we changed the barrel to one that suppported more of the case and fit the barrel in such a way that it remains locked to the slide a bit longer for that effect. Went with a nice stiff single recoil spring as well for good measure.

Once.


Travis

I�m going to go out on a limb and say I squarely don�t know. I�d love to sit down with him to gain a greater understanding. Simply setting the barrel deeper into the locking lugs could conceivably cause as many problems as it solves�or at least it seems that way to me. I�ve never tried it because I was taught to install a barrel the right way every time and to end up with a barrel significantly deeper into the lugs than normal would take a whole lot of extra work, so I�ve never ended up there even on accident. I�ve heard of people taking the link slightly over center to create a �moment� about the axis, but again, I don�t know the specifics of how that�s actually done, and how well it works. That�s an area where I just have never gone.

Thank you for an honest answer. I am sure that Jack Huntington would love to chat with you. Despite being a busy and in demand 1911 pistolsmith, I found him to be very personable and willing to yak a little when I sent him my two guns to be worked on. Look up JRH custom guns in Grass Valley Calif and his website will come up, with his phone number at the bottom of the home page. A faascinating guy to talk to who really loves and knows his 1911's. JWP475 reffered me to him and I am glad he did. Between his barrel work and your work on my Colt I have a real hierloom gun to pack, shoot, hunt with and be proud of.

Blessings,

MARK

Mark do you have a custom barrel in your delta elite? Some say not to shoot their ammo in the delta due to the rampless barrel?

If that 90% number is right, it would seem that ammo that runs in a 5" (or longslide 6") gun would be a problem in the subcompacts - like a Defender with a 3.25" barrel. But Defenders have a good reputation for function.

Both Wilson and EGW do sell the square bottom firing pin stops, and there's more than a few people who have reported a significant difference in feel when they are used.

That said, I'm not gonna casually throw the "smiley" load in anything, without working up.

That was my lame attempt at just trying to make a very simplistic statement. Honestly on a handgun, the barrel cam timing is THE critical element. But since that�s almost always a constant and typically isn�t something one ever messes with, or even can mess with in some designs, I just kinda left that out.

So it�s no absolute, just a rough estimate. Barrel length plays a role also because the second the bullet leaves the barrel, pressures drop dramatically. The earlier the bullet exists, the quicker the pressure drops�but then there�s less slide mass. So the shorter barrel offsets some, but probably not much. Certainly the smaller slide guns open when chamber pressure is higher than with longer barrel/slide guns, but there's obviously enough there to get the job done. So while I think the FP stop thing on a high intensity round in a 1911 is never a bad idea, it will never be a critical factor. It will never turn an unsafe situation into a safe one; too fine a margin.

When Jack is done the results are outstanding, he definitely knows what he is doing

Yes sir, I do. It is a custom fitted - by Jack Huntington of JRH custom guns - Storm Lake barrel.

It and the pistol overall are FAR more accurate and capable than I am as a pistol shooter. I feel like a Jr. High violin student holding a Stratovarious Violin!

The problem is that many 1911's leave the factory with poor barrel slide lock up

I understand that when Smith and Wesson went to make their 1006/1076 guns, they increased the weight of the slide. The recoil spring is very stiff as well.
To my knowledge, the 1006/1076 guns have had no problems with any reasonable 10mm ammo. E

And therein lies the main reason you gun is more manageable; all the rest is secondary though fooling with the barrel lug engagement could be considered directionally right, but, IMO they are relatively small factors. (I have been around a lot of 1911 'smiths & armorers & none of them have ever mentioned needing to do it)

Why do you think that most really successful bullseye (softball) shooters put ribs on their 1911's for the 45 class?

To slow down the slide, allow the use of very soft springs & VERY mild loads, as in 3.2 gr of BE with a 185-200 gr bullet.............and the guns will function just fine.

MM

here's the smiley case I mentioned. The load that did it ran a 155 at 1425 fps...

You are right many do not, but you do not need a spring as heavy you do when you do not.
Mark has a 20 pound spring now which is lighter than the double spring set up that Colt used, yet he is not throwing brass 30" as he was before and the gun is not battering itself as bad either

Mark, does your Delta look like this one? (Minus the adj sights and Gold Cup trigger)



if so that is the flat top slide used on the "enhanced" Gov't models, including the Deltas.

Right.........in his case, the heavier slide (with the rib) slows down the slide velocity & inertia, thus allowing him to use a lighter spring; whatever value whatever was done with the barrel lugs is just additive to that effect.

MM

By lengthening the lockup time pressure is lower when it unlocks thus slowing the slide velocity. I do not have a heavier slide on my 45 Super and I use an 18.5 pound spring

I'd surely like to examine your gun & make some measurements..........too bad we are so far apart.

What bullet weight & what velocity are your 45 Super loads?

MM

230's at 1130 FPS and 255 hard cast at 1090 FPS

Do you have load data for Super 255 cast bullets? I have a 625 JM that I'd like to try something along those lines in..... IIRC Buffalo Bore offers a stout .45 super load but the meta plate had to be kind of small to function in an auto pistol.... I have a mold that cast a wide flat nose at that weight...

PM inbound

I wonder if it had been called a 10X25 would made a difference or maybe a 40 by 25 would have made it more attractive. Just speculating on what makes people take somethings and pass on other things. Cheers NC

I had not thought of that one, but it is a good one! 10x25.... I LIKE it! Even though it does not have magnum in the name, and that would fit. How about 10x25 Magnum?

If they renamed it the .40 Smith and Wesson Magnum it would be all the rage for two years.


Travis

After reading 155 replies, I can honestly say that the answer is that had all the 10's been 45's they would have sold much better.

MM

16 pages of banter......the 10 can't be all bad.

It is not bad, it's just not great.

10 pages? Well, no matter what your settings are, it ain't no 223AI....

Think of it as a 10 shot(in a 1911) .357 magnum. Arguably more power than a .357, since it makes a bigger hole. That's a pretty good reason to like it

I haven't read all this thread, but IIRC when the 10mm was introduced it came out in the Delta Elite, basically a 1911A1 framed for the 45ACP now chambered for the 10mm. There were some slide cracks in the early pistols. Also, police had some difficulty handling recoil in their service issue firearms. These problems were very detrimental to the introduction of the 10mm.

40 Super blows the 10mm away so what's the point.The 40 Super sends a 220 grain hard cast flat point out at 1350 FPS and a 200 grain XTP 1400 FPS, a 165 grain JHP bonded at 1600 FPS. The 10 mm is still second fiddle

You're right Ed.

The Bren 10 was manufactured from 1983 to 1986 the Colt made hit the market in 1987. The Bren 10 was the pistol that the 10mm was designed for in the first place

Ouch! Where do I buy a .40 Super?


Travis

I wonder what a Colt Match 10 goes for these days....

Just have a 40 Super Barrel fit to a 45 ACP 1911 and set up for the pressure and go for it

New & unfired? $2k+ I would bet. Delta Gold Cups are similar, and they definitely bring a premium.

The Elite 10/40 I have is another rare limited edition. A year or two ago I saw one NIB at a gun show for sale by a Colt specialist. I think he was asking $4k for it. Guess I screwed up, shooting mine

I've not followed up on it, but remember reading that 10mm revolvers could be opened to a "10mm Magnum". Not sure what kind of speeds it would get, but in a longer barreled revolver or auto it would be fun. I know when I originally heard of it Starline was making brass.