Watching Fox News tonight, NYPD Detective Bo Dietl talked about George Zimmerman having a round in the chamber and the difference it made. The host ask Bo if he carried with a RIC to witch he answered, "Yes, I carry a 9MM and it has a RIC right NOW". I thought that was funny that a guest on a TV news show admitted to being armed then and there...

Personally I think it could make a difference between life and death. In the time it would take you to chamber a round, it could be too late.

How many carry with a chambered round?

Doesn't everyone?

At the risk of being the fire nerd
I don't

Unless I carry my Defender or S&W pro series 1911 than its cocked and locked
Hank

Is there any other way?

Carrying a gun not immediately ready to fire is extremely foolish. Might as well carry safety scissors or a condom.

One in the pipe with a full mag and xtra mags in my pocket.

Gunner

Heck no ..... my round is in my shirt pocket.

Comparing a gun without a round in the chamber to safety scissors is what's foolish. I'd even dare say "extremely" so.

I know folks who do and who don't, for a variety of reasons. I even do on occasion.

Few things in life are black and white. This topic included.

Let me think. Hmmmm.

Put the case: I get attacked... let's say, by a Rottweiler. I feed my left hand into the Rottweiler's slavering jaws to buy me enough time to draw my self-defense handgun.

But Wait! Lo is me! I am carrying with an empty chamber for Safety's Sake! How doth I rack me a round into my firearm's chamber whilst my racking hand is being devoured by said hound from hell?

Alas, I am undone! I die a horrible death! But my Virtue remains intact, and I shall die ripped to bloody shreds by the voracious beast Secure in my Conviction that I was "safe" with my firearm! Such sublime victory!

Oi.

.... somebody give me a [bleep]' break here... jay-zus...

A firearm not loaded is a "paperweight" it's useless. A person carrying a firearm for protection should carry with one in the chamber. If they are uncomfortable to do so they need more training and familiarization with their prospective firearm. If after training they are still not comfortable with carrying a loaded firearm then they probably shouldn't be carrying one to begin with?

Bonus points for...slavering / doth / whilst / hound from hell / alas / voracious and sublime.

Well done sir, well done.

You need to ask this question in the rifle forum... safety first.

Aye

Usually handguns are carried for vastly different reasons than rifles......

Let's also remember that handguns are usually holstered with their trigger housings covered as well, where rifles are not.

Frankly I give less than a rats azz what anyone else thinks of my carry habits....mostly because they have no clue I am carrying unless they are friends and I choose to let them know.

Guess I'm in the minority but I carry hammer down on an empty chamber.

+1

THAT!!

You will not find a modern SD pistol training doctrine anywhere that teaches Condition 3 carry for any reason.

For CCW, yes I do. When hunting no I don't unless using a single shot falling block .22, then there is a RIC and the hammer in the safety notch.

+1

DAO, 4053, round in chamber.

I can not envision a scenario when, or a reason why, I would carry a SD gun with no round in the chamber. I have always assumed that if needed it would be needed RIGHT NOW.

-Z

Uh, yeah!

I can't imagine carrying and not having one in the chamber.
STAY READY

I fail to see why. Both are equally useless in this context

My CCW instructor brought up an interesting point on this topic. . . If you have enough time to deploy the weapon AND rack the slide, then you likely (not definitely) have enough time to remove yourself from the situation without firing a round. If you don't have time to rack the slide, well. . .

My job keeps me from carrying on a daily basis, but when I am carrying there is a round in the chamber in my CZ. In the H&R, the hammer sits on an empty chamber next to a round of snake-shot. Then 7 CCI Stingers.

I don�t always carry a handgun, but when I do, I prefer a round in the chamber.

Stay prepared, my friends.

As I understand it, there are some jews who would disagree with that.



I don't doubt that you fail to see why. The answer is because one is a gun that can be loaded and fired and the other is safety scissors.



How long does it take you to rack a slide?

It depends. In a situation with humans, loaded and ready.

In the bush, I like revolvers with the hammer on an empty hole in the cylinder. A fall and percussion on the hammer could mean bleeding to deatha long way from help with 6 rounds.. I know some professional trappers that work alone. One guy carries with 4 rounds- an empty under the hammer and the next one, in case a branch catches the trigger.

I'd never advocate an empty chamber as the best way to carry, or even a good way to carry.

But when folks start equating it to "carrying a paperweight" or "safety scissors" and such, they're not being honest about the realities of the conversation. When you show me a paperweight that is designed to fit the human hand, internally carries 15 rounds of ammunition and is capable of being chambered and fired, I'll agree. Until then, it's nonsense.

All I ask is that people THINK about what they're doing and WHY they're doing it. Buying into "someone told me" isn't thinking. Go to the range, try what works for you WITH A TIMER and draw your own conclusions. That's what I did.

Do whatever you want, but have a reason for it.

Exactly. It's not really loaded without a round in the chamber. Had it not been in that condition, Zimmerman would likely be dead today, or brain damaged. Defense should ask every cop that's on the stand from now on if he keeps one in the chamber, and why.

yes and no

yes=Jframe

no=self loader

Not long But if it is a matter of "imminent threat of death or great bodily harm," I'm working under the assumption that every second counts. . .

The case at hand is the perfect case in point. They were struggling for it and Zimmerman got to it first. His other hand was busy fighting off Martin, and not available for racking the slide.

is this a serious question?

Which makes sense.

But the notion that if you have time to rack a slide you have time to run away doesn't make sense, at all. If I need to assemble a stripped pistol and load a magazine from my pocket, yes-I would have time to just run away.

What Zimmerman was doing involved a very high risk of encounter with an armed opponent. Having a round in the chamber makes much more sense than an empty chamber in that kind of scenario.

On the other hand, there have been so many AD's and otherwise avoidable 'accidental' shooting by LE types that one has to wonder whether or not a loaded chamber presents a greater danger.

For those of use that assiduously avoid situations where a gun might actually need to be used, I contend that the loaded chamber is often the greater danger. Speaking only for myself and considering the ***many hundreds of times*** I've avoided loading or unloading a chamber versus the ***zero*** times I've needed to draw my carry firearm, an empty chamber makes sense more often than not.

In Zimmerman's situation I would have had a loaded chamber.

Chambering a round isn't just an issue of time - it's about the ability and/or opportunity to get it done under tough circumstances.

How you going to execute that one-handed slide manipulation drill (you know, the one you've seen on TV and the internet and practiced maybe 10 times on the range) when your flat on your back and staving off a knife, impact weapon, fist or a gun?

Just curious?

If you do not understand why a gun should be carried in condition one than you are naive or an idiot.

Along the same line of thinking, in the context of a self defense tool, an unloaded gun (Anything but condition one) is about as useful as safety scissors, a pocket knife, or a paperweight; which is to say a bludgeoning or stabbing implement.

This argument bores me, good day sirs.

I tend to think he was a bit brain damaged to begin with.

Evidently some folks missed this.

I'm not saying carrying cold the way to go. I'm saying that the worn out old "it's too slow", "paperweight / safety scissors" arguments aren't a reason to carry hot.

I'm not a proponent of hot or cold in this conversation. I'm a proponent for critical thinking.

In Israel it�s the law that guns are carried without a round in the chamber. So they have devised tactics that work very well for that type of carry.

Clearly it�s always better to carry with a round chambered, but to say that Condition 3 is worthless, is a HUGE stretch. Our military carried that way for a good 80 years�yet many people still were killed with .45 caliber holes in them. So apparently someone figured out how to use their safety scissors.

And from the inception of the 1911 until around the mid �70�s, Condition 2 was the most common mode of carry for civilians. Again, clearly Condition 1 is preferred, but it�s also clear that Condition 2 can work.

I started to read all the responses, and I was really amazed with all the responses.

To surmise: If you are carrying for self defense, you need one in the chamber for a semi-auto. On a double action revolver, you can keep the hammer down on an empty chamber if you like because it will chamber a round as you cock it with your thumb or trigger.

Any other opinions are asinine, and this thread can be locked now.

hot chamber. always. CCW or hunting.

always and would carry two in the chamber if possible

This. I always unload at the vehicle as required by my states law while hunting of course. Before my kids were grown I ALWAYS cleared the chamber before I took a handgun off of my person. When I picked it up again to carry it, I loaded a round and press checked. I think this is a good habit. Just like leaving the "wire".

I agree with Blue that this is not a cut-and-dried issue. What about off-body carry? Like a "man purse" in the truck?

I agree in principal with Doc and his Olde English Rott rondevous. I dare say that someone who's been to the Rogers Shooting School won't have an issue getting a round chambered strong-hand only though. The guy in the video below is shooting (to slide lock) and reloading with his right/dominant hand ONLY

Try to keep up with the old man:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwNgMQlF1vI

Exactly

I re-read all the posts and I think I see what Blue is trying to do. I believe he is attempting to get us to think about why we do things.

Here goes. I carry with a round in the chamber because I have had occasion to draw my weapon multiple times. Sometimes, maybe even most, there has been ample warning with time to chamber a round. There have however been many times when the presentation was very quick.

In the quick presentation scenarios I was glad to be ready that much faster. Also, anything extra added under stress is one more chance to mess up. I just can not think of a single reason to NOT have a round I the chamber.

It should be noted my experience is as an on-duty LEO so it is not exactly the same as CCW.

-Z

Yes, always.

L.W.

While I understand the argument for Condition 1, I disagree with your suggestion that anyone who doesn't carry that way is naive or an idiot. I carry empty chamber and safety off which means I have the same manual of arms for all of my carry weapons, a good thing IMHO because some are safety up and others are safety down to fire. If I was going to carry otherwise it would probably be Condition 2, which still allows the same manual of arms if the safeties are left disengaged, albeit at somewhat higher chance of an AD.

Everyone has to judge for themselves the merits of the various carry methods. It is hardly naive or idiotic to weigh the options and choose something other than Condition 1 based on a person's individual situation. Big Brother carries Condition 1 and has done so for many years. His 280Z also had a hole in the floor on the passenger side because of a thumb slip while lowering the hammer on a 1911. I choose Condition 3 because I estimate the probability of my need for a quick draw and shoot just slightly higher than my chances of winning the lottery jackpot - and I don't buy lottery tickets.

One thing I've learned over the years is that Murphy will have his way. Safeties fail, people screw up, schit happens. Condition 3 is 100% safe regardless of the condition of the safety or the mental condition of the shooter. Yes, it takes marginally longer to make a weapon in Condition 3 ready to fire; yes, it generally takes two hands to do so quickly and reliably. On the other hand, nothing prevents a person from going to Condition 1 or Condition 0 early on if something sets off their alarms.

Walking down the streets of Denver after dark I'd probably go to Condition 1, but I don't do that kind of thing. Walking down the road in my area I rarely even carry at all. Situations vary, as does the appropriate response.

Yep. Do whatever floats your boat. I have no issue with "I always carry hot". I do have an issue with "I DON'T carry cold because blah blah blah", when "blah blah blah" is just a bunch of cliches and speculation.

We need thinkers that are shooters and shooters that are thinkers. Shooters are usually easier to find than thinkers, IME.

If you are ever going to have an AD, it will be carrying a 1911 in Condition 2 (Hammer down on a live round). You have 2 chances to go bang if you let the hammer slip, one letting it down, and 2 cocking it. I personally carry condition 1, and if I couldn't do that, it would be Condition 3.

ADs are not all created equal.

In going to Condition 2, one is hopefully pointing the gun in a safe direction, outside the home or car, something that is not a problem for people like me that live in the country or keep a bucket of sand in their garage. Do it once, carry all day, then unload at day's end, again pointing the gun in a safe direction. An AD would not be welcome but wouldn't present much danger, either.

By contrast, Condition 1 requires working safeties all the time. I've seen safeties fail on loaded rifles (the infamous Remington M700 Fire-On-Release safety issue) and my S&W manufactured PPK/S was subject to a factory recall due to a problem with the hammer-drop safety causing ADs when activated on a loaded chamber. How many LE types have shot themselves in the leg or foot while holstering their gun with a round in the chamber? An Aurora cop was killed some years back in a training session because someone else's gun was loaded in the chamber (inappropriately, to be sure, but loaded nevertheless).

Like Condition 2, going to and from Condition 1 presents two opportunities for an AD. Condition 1 also presents a constant and much higher possibility of an AD due to failed safeties, safeties inadvertently being pushed off, mishandling, mental lapses, whatever. In the many hundreds of times I've had a concealed firearm with me I've never once needed to go to Condition 1 or 2. That is many hundreds of times X 2 that an opportunity for an AD has been avoided. The one time I would have gone to Condition 1 my only weapon was a folding defensive knife - but I had plenty of time to make it - or a firearm - ready.

By the way, someone mentioned hunting with an empty chamber and suggested it is the only sensible way. It is not my way, at least not most of the time, and in 30 years of hunting Colorado's big game I can't think of a single instance where an empty chamber cost me an animal. The arguments for an empty chamber while hunting are pretty much the same as for carrying in Condition 3. Both are perfectly rational depending on a person's individual situation.

Carrying in condition 1,2,or 3 is obviously a personal choice with the 1st being the most popular. I think the choice of weapon is also a determining factor as illustrated in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6h4kgxNzY4

In Condition 1 you have 2 safeties in play all the time (thumb safety and grip safety) and of course the most important safety of all, your finger. Keep it off the trigger till your sights are on the target. I've shot IPSC for years with a 1911, (as well as being around numerous other people shooting 1911's) and have yet to see an AD because of a safety. Pulling the trigger before they were ready yes, but not the safety. If you are scared of carrying a 1911 cocked and locked, then I would seriously choose one of the various pull, point, shoot type pistols, of course realizing that they will be cocked and locked also with a round in the chamber.

The Real Hawkeye Likes This Post.

Carrying any handgun for serious social purposed that cannot/should not be carried with a round in the chamber seems like a poor choice to me. YMMV.

Not necessarily.

Well we can split hairs on this design or that design, but I think most people understand what I was trying to say. Personally speaking, if I'm going to carry a gun, it is going to be ready for immediate action, and in my mind at least, that means one in the chamber!

Yes. Whatever firearm I am carrying when I leave my home has a round in the chamber.

Why is it that some advocates of Condition 1 carry can�t realize that others can come to a well-reasoned and perfectly logical conclusion that Condition 1 is not right for them? It seems the argument always comes down to those other people must be �scared� of their gun.

Let me point out that even with multiple safeties, every unintentional discharge in the history of firearms have one thing in common � a loaded chamber. By contrast, an unintentional discharge is physically impossible when the chamber is empty.

For me the decision to carry in Condition 3 is not a result of being �scared� of my firearms but I do have a healthy respect for the damage they can do, just as I do tornados, drunken drivers, lightning and other dangers. As I do with those other dangers, mitigating the potential of an unwanted result is a reasonable endeavor � and the very reason you most likely don�t carry in Condition 0.

The �most important� safety you mention is also the one most likely to fail, as it relies on the human brain, and multiple firearm safeties have not eliminated the problem of unintentional discharges in Condition 0, 1 and 2. The possibility of an unintentional discharge is not just lower with Condition 3, it is zero.

The down side of Condition 3 is that it takes a second or so longer to make ready and generally requires two free hands. One upside for me is that regardless of which of my semi-autos I am carrying, the manual of arms is the same � no need to think about whether the safety goes up or down to fire, where a moment�s confusion or fumbling with a small safety could easily cost more time than racking the slide as the weapon is brought to bear.

If I was regularly engaging in activities where the probability of actually needing to draw my carry weapon was higher, I would probably go to Condition 2 or maybe even Condition 1 for my standard method of carry. The fact of the matter, though, is I try hard to stay alert to potential dangers and to avoid environments or situations where my weapon might be needed. The probability I will need my weapon is very low as a result but the possibility of an unintentional discharge is infinitely higher in Conditions 1 and 2.

We all make trade-offs in our carry decisions � whether it is the cartridge of choice, the type of holster, semi or revolver, DA or SA, and so on. Some of us practice with our carry weapons a lot, some very little. I�m somewhere in-between but I�ll probably never shoot my handguns as much as I do my rifles - partly because I expect to go to my grave never having needed to draw my carry weapon. My 9mm (DA/SA, safety up) stays in my car all the time, my .380 (DA/SA, safety up) tends to be in a pocket and when I carry my .45 (SA, safety down) it is usually in the small of my back in an IWB holster. Nothing prevents me from going from Condition 3 to Condition 0, 1 or 2 should the situation dictate but in normal situations I�m quite comfortable with my weapons in Condition 3.

CH...I understand where you are coming from but just totally disagree... One thing you said above was that if you were going somewhere that you considered "dangerous" you would switch from Condition III to I. Do you knoiw what would happen if the S*** actually did hit the fan...you would grab the slide and try and jack a round into the chamber...why...because that is how you train. And if you were carrying a 1911 you would be going nowhere slowly...

My suggestion is go and look at LiveLeak or YouTube videos of robberies and assaults. Unless you have a crystal ball you have no clue when this is going to happen. Walking along a nice woods path and be attacked but a pack of dogs... You want to take the chance of flubbing a "rack". Try turning, running and racking one handed some time...it is hard enough two. Sit in a car, draw and rack while dringing... Just last week RGS posted that video of the car jacking...you want to rack while that is going down...

Kevin...go look at the history of where the gun training came from in Israel you'll find it was developed by an US Army sargent. And why does the Army and Israel public all carry Condition III...because they are UNTRAINED masses.

And then you come to all the unintentional shootings by LEOs especially those using Glocks and other "safe-action" type handguns...and why? Because Gaston Glock designed the Glock to be a military weapn to be carreied in Condition III. Tokarovs are SA firearms that have no manual safety unless imported into the USA...again another gun that was made to be carried Condition III.

I have taught CC and tactical shooting for over 20 years. When students do scenario shooting they ener the scenario just as they carry...don't want to tell you how many I have seen get killed due to flubbing the rack.

When the SHTF it isn't like being on the range....Bob

YeeUP. RIO7

I agree RJM, if he ever has a close encounter where he has to fend off an attacker with one hand, and draw with the other, Condition 3 will have you screwing the pooch. You WILL NOT have an AD in Condition 1 unless you stick your finger in the trigger guard and pull the trigger. I have yet to see a gun fire by itself. Keep your booger hook off the bang switch, till your sights are on the target. As a matter of fact, the AD (accidental discharge) should really be changed to UD (unintentional discharge), because that's what takes place 99.9% of the time!

So you carry in Condition 0 and just keep your finger off the trigger?

Exactly and perfectly stated

Why wouldn't you?

No I carry in Condition 1, cocked and locked, and ready to rock!

I carry six of them.

I honestly believe you could answer, no I carry a revolver so I don't need to and the media would think that's a good answer.

I carry three different pistols depending on dress and such--a Glock 19, a Dan Wesson CCO and a S&W M&P 340. All have a round in the chamber when I'm carrying. The CCO I carry with a round chambered and safety off. I figure the grip safety and me keeping my finger off the trigger is safe enough, but that's just what I'm comfortable with.

I only have one semi-auto, a rimfire, and no, I will not carry it with a round chambered. On 3 occasions I've pulled it from the holster to find the safety already disengaged. I'm real lucky I didn't take a bullet down the outside of my leg.

I would have no issues with a Glock, 1911 cocked 'n' locked, etc. But my little Ruger Mk III ... no.

My carry guns, for now, are all revolvers, current production S&W or Ruger, and I carry all 5 or 6 chambers loaded.

Tom

It's actually quite easy to chamber a round with one hand.

All risk is retaliative, so focusing on only one dynamic may not be the most holistic approach to the issue.

I said modern pistol training doctrine. I really don't give a schitt how the jews do it. Since you brought it up, the so-called "Israeli Method" was actually the result of an American ex-marine contract trainer whose only handgun training/fighting doctrine was the same dumbed down crap the Army and Marine Corps taught for years. Their "method" was actually an attempt to refine and add a level of discipline to what they were taught. The Israelis don't use that dumbassed method any more since learning the modern technique and having the means to arm their people with handgun lots of one make and model rather than a mish-mash of whatever they could scare up.

I can point you to a Soldier of Fortune article that came out about ten years ago on the history of it and dispelled the myths of its supposed superiority.

The title is: The Israeli Method: Or How To Get Yourself Shot Up In Style.

At best it worked until something better came along.

Yes. Don't suppose I've ever gone grouse hunting with an empty chamber either for the same reason: stuff flies up in my face out of the blue, I'd best be prepared if want to do something about it. So while may never draw my ccw, if I did and "lost" there may well be no sitting around the stove later to laugh about my unpreparedness to shoot.

But fair enough, there lies some risk in this and it requires being mindful. To each his own.

p.s. I do wonder as to the "gained safety" of being in the habit of carrying an "empty" chambered firearm. Seems just one error in judgement/memory there could be every bit as dangerous. And why does one perceive it to be safer? Is the weapon's design or one's carry holster that bad, and if so, why have it?

Not criticizing so much as just not following the logic as applies to ccw.

Evidently you missed where I said that I'm not promoting cold carry, or where I quoted myself to make it clear.

My point about the Jewish method is not that cold carry is great, but to point out that cold carry does not = instant death, safety scissors, or paperweights.

And please don't start droning on about the decades old "modern technique".

It's pretty telling that it took almost 70 responses before anyone asked WHY cold carrying is done, instead of just saying "your way sucks".

For a while several years ago I carried a Kel-Tec .380 with a pocket clip, appendix carry because it hid in what I was wearing. The make, model, caliber, and method of carry were all compromises. But they were inexpensive and at the time I couldn't afford to pay attention, so that's what I used.

When appendix carrying a couple of things played into my decision to carry cold.
1) I was really trying to avoid shooting my pecker off, or sending a hydrashok through my femoral artery. Drawing from this carry method was never smooth because I had a tucked in dress shirt and it was just never really comfortable. I wasn't SURE that I could draw under stress in any clothing and avoid snagging the trigger so I carried cold.

2) I used a two hand draw....Left hand pushed up on the muzzle and exposed the grip and the right hand started reaching in and caught it. Both my hands were already at the gun, with my left hand covering it as it came out and it was readily available for charging the pistol. This also allowed me to draw very discreetly since my left palm could completely cover the whole pistol.

I practiced a lot and felt safer carrying cold than hot. I was just as fast carrying cold because the extra care I took drawing while hot took extra time.

Were there issues with this setup? Of course. So please don't bother telling me how I could've carried better seven years ago. If I thought it was the best I'd still be doing it. And I'm sure I can find a hypothetical doomsday scenario where your method of carry sucks too.

There will be compromises with any thing and any way you carry. You just have to look around and decide what the best solution is to the problems that you have. And make your decisions based on actual evidence (putting rounds down range with a timer) instead of preconceived notions about how things have to be done.

If I'm carrying one of my 1911s while hiking or hunting, I carry with a full magazine nothing in the chamber (condition 3). If anything gets my hackles up, I rack the slide and carry locked and cocked with safety on (condition 1). If I'm carrying in town, or on the road or for any reason the concern walks on two legs I always carry cocked and locked (condition 1), same for the gun by my bed ...

Blue good post.

I also see times when the totality of risks may favor cold carry. Something mentioned early is the "administrative handling". For those of us with kids, the risks may favor a cold chamber at home. All the extra chambering and clearing adds an element of risk. If you live in a apartment or densly populated area, this risk can be increased. Depending on a persons current risk profile, this may outweight the added benefit of a hot chamber.

Laffin' Laffin' Laffin'

Carrying hot should be a prerequisite for carrying at all. Carrying cold is a recipe for disaster in a self defense situation.


I'm not too bright, but I do have my moments. Hopefully I'm not the only one that sees this?


All other kaffirs need not apply. GFY

condition 1, but then I have been strictly a govt model carrier for 40 yrs. same weapon the whole time. I know her parts as well as I do my wife's and am comfortable handling both in the same condition.

I suppose I did miss it. My apologies. How about we substitute "modern technique" (Excuse me Col. Cooper) with "current training doctrine"? Methods and training are constantly evolving. Hopefully, they evolve due to lessons learned in the real world and not because someone dreams something up they want to tack their name onto.

One other thing to remember, is that when the Israelis were using their "method" they were carrying out assassinations and working in teams. Doing so, they were proactive and were ahead of the curve in identifying their target and initiating the action without the target's knowledge with plenty of time to make ready. Everything else about the Israeli method is due to slick marketing and urban legend.

Armed citizens and cops under the best of circumstances are reacting to someone else's initation of action.

Fair enough. I just cringe when I hear "modern technique", because it's nearly always used by some tool whose only exposure to pistol training is reading Cooper's Commentaries and who wears a ghillie suit to the range. At least IME.

And I agree that cold carry isn't a part of any current training doctrine, at least that I'm aware of.

Like I said.....

You are right, no one can accurately predict such events. There are, however, possibilities and probabilities, historical data, behavior patterns and other indicators one can use to good advantage to greatly reduce the probability of an unwanted event.

It is somewhat like hunting in reverse. When hunting you go where you think the animals are. In the case of two-legged animals though, you go where you think they will not be or at least at times where their presence isn't likely and you don't engage in behavior that either suggests you are or in fact makes you an easy target.

Like hunting, there are no guarantees. I could hunt antelope in my back yard but don't because in 25 years we've only seen antelope there once and they were passing through at a high rate of speed. Nevertheless I've killed two antelope less than a mile north of the house. (These days I find it easier and more rewarding to hunt antelope in Wyoming where the animals are plentiful and I can get multiple licenses.) Elk range to within a mile of our home but in those same 25 years we've never seen them from the house - hunting them from the back deck would likely be a fruitless endeavor but by hunting elsewhere in Colorado I've taken 10 elk since the year 2000.

When the Franktown fire occurred a couple years ago a neighbor's roof caught fire and the flames came to within 300 yards of our place. We didn't worry too much about our home because we are outside the trees and keep the grass near the house mowed down and fairly well watered, plus it is surrounded on three sides by asphalt and concrete. That's not to say our house couldn't burn from such a fire but it isn't likely, either. I worry more about burglars, which is why our valuables are locked up in a heavy-duty and very heavy gun safe and at night we have a loaded gun by the bed. Burglars aren't likely though, because our home is too exposed. Any burglar that isn't a complete half-wit would pick one of our neighbor's homes first, where the trees and/or terrain would hide their activities.

Nothing people do can guarantee they won't be a target or a victim but there is much they can do to minimize the probability of that happening.

I'm with Poobah, I carry a round in all chambers!

+1

Yes, always.
However, I knew a cop once that carried a 1911 w/ the chamber empty, and cocked and locked. Back then, most cops got shot with their own guns. He practiced regularly drawing, taking the safety off and chambering a round. I showed him how to do it one handed. For those that don't know, you turn the gun 45 degrees and slightly away from your body and hook the rear sight on your belt or holster. Holding the sight firmly hooked, you push the gun away from you. When it stops with the slide open, simply lift it free. Not a bad skill to have, BTW.
How ever one carries, I firmly believe it should only be done one way. Simple and straight forward is always best. So, it's your call.
Heck, maybe you have kids that you are concerned about. Even some adults can't chamber a round, but anybody can pull a trigger, even a DA one. So, perhaps it's a good option for those with special concerns. E

I teach security officers & failure to have the handgun with a round chambered is cause for dismissal. On rare occasions have found officers on duty who forgot to load weapon. Usually due to reporting late for shift. They are transferred immediately to non-armed sites. Any time I carry my handgun(s) off duty they are loaded with spare magazines or speed loaders. Why carry a gun that isn't ready to fire. Same with my tactical knife. Its fast opening & always at hand.

Bear, not all of us are carrying around a half of a million dollars in large bills. What makes sense for your secutrity firm may not always make sense for the rest of us.

I agree with tbear why carry if the weapon is not ready for immediate action

Blue, your story reminds of a sidearm I used to carry. The thumb safty was small, and in a difficult position. After drawing, I had to break my grip to dig under the safty with my thumb to flip it up, at which point I had to contend with a long, hard, double action trigger pull. After trying it both way, I found it was quicker, more accurate, and more reliable to carry it cold.

Also, it had a nice stiff slide that the kids could not operate.

JP

How long does it take you to run the slide versus cock it?

Time it and get back to me.

Jayco

Cock what? Try racking a slide with some one on top of you banging your head into the concrete and get back to me

Owe..So you carry with one in the pipe relying on the safety?

I don't live in an area that shooting someone is the only option.I also do not rely 100% on safety mechanisms...But in saying that,I stoke all my cylinders on revolvers just not on semi-auto's.

Break into my house and once you get through my two dogs,I could load three weapons.Put a gun in my head in a parking lot,it's to late for anything....

So that leaves us with a short warning/people wise with alot of choices and goes back to what you said..Once your already down,he must not have a gun so your going to Zimmer him?

Jayco

You jump to a lot of conclusions and as always use flawed logic as to your basis to the jumped conclusion.

You said to get back to you about getting your head banged into the concrete..Never have,so tell me about it.

First-If your getting your head bashed in,the guy doesn't have a weapon...

Second-How many times have you been in that very scenario needing a bullet in the chamber of a semi-auto while getting your head bashed in,as you posted?

Third-If you have just a few seconds while an "armed" person threatens your life...How much difference in seconds or milli-seconds does it take to run the slide versus pull the hammer back or even click the safety off.

Now time it and get back to me.

Jayco

More BS conjecture on your part if you can't or don't get I can't help

Just prove me wrong instead of just saying BS.......

You show charts about energy/momentum/penetration yada yada....Just show me why your method is faster in time instead of were just supposed to believe it....

I don't.....It doesn't' take anymore significant time to run the slide versus/cocking or thumbing the safety.

It is simple..Just prove me wrong...Not my word against yours..Prove it is faster your way....

I can't believe you said what you said about having your head beat in on concrete..Have you ever had that happen?

You can't is the fact because it's not....

Jayco

This make sense to you? IF the guy is bashing your head in then he has the only weapon that he needs to bring great bodily harm or death the person being bashed in needs a weapon to stop the attack

You come up with silly zzz BS that doesn't deserve a reply I am done

Really...

If the guy has a gun and wants to kill you,your dead before the fist fight starts...

You get into a fist fight and the guy has no weapon and you want to kill him because he is beating the snot out of you?

Just show me and prove your method is faster to shoot the guy beating the snot out of you,without a weapon....

Scenario-You and I wrestle and we both jump up and run to the table where we both have loaded weapons....Your's is cocked and locked with the hammer down/safety on and mine is chamber free off safety..We grab them at the same time.....I have to run the slide/you have to take it off safety.

Who's shot is first and why?

Jayco

How can the weapon be cocked and locked with the hammer down? If all I have to do is swipe off the safety you will lose. Your technique basically requires 2 hands, but what if one of your arms/hands has been injured? I don't think you can rack the slide using one hand faster than I can take the safety off with one hand!

People spend lots of time discussing points like this and practicing at the range. What they really need to think hard about is when to brandish a weapon, and when to use it.

I am not sure that a citizen should ever brandish a firearm, if you need pull it you better need to use it

I just cringe when I hear "Israeli Method" because it's nearly always used by some tool who comes across as having an Israeli/Jewish Superiority Complex by Proxy, and they act as if the manual of arms was written on a stone tablet by the finger of God Himself for all the generations to follow, without understanding the Israelis were just trying to make do with what they had to work with at the time.

BTW, I do have active State of Alaska Police Firearms Instructor certs. Modern technique is a term used in the instructors' manual.

I close my eyes, mash the trigger and hope for the best. I call it the Bluedreaux Technique.

I do and even when hunting...

That's because you live in the south. Alot of thick brush and quick shots.

Out west we have more open country. We have more time, and take longer shots.

We also have more snow and ice to contend with when hunting, which increases the risks of falling with a rifle and ADD's. As a consequence, we have a greater tendency to hunt with our chambers empty.

Zimmerman would have been dead or seriously brain damaged today if he carried his auto pistol with an empty chamber. No way in hell he'd have been able to save his life by racking the slide with Martin on top of him since his other hand was busy fighting off the attacker.

easy to spot the queens on this thread.........

I have carried cold as a compromise dictated by conditions but never have considered it optimum. Conditions that lead me to do it were carrying a striker fired weapon (glock) without a holster. Before I get chastised about carrying a glock without a holster you can save your breath, sometimes you do what you have to do and I would not recommend it to anyone.

Other than some very specific exceptions I carry hot. I have done my part to train to rack weapons or clear malfunctions one handed but they are slower than a standard manual of arms. IMHE needing a sidearm usually involves bad breath distances and I would rather have my other hand available to create distance, assist with retention or anything other than racking a slide.

I've also found it extremely useful to shove the pistol forward as you fire to counteract recoil and give the bullet more velocity, every little bit counts in MESCQC (mega extreme super close quarter combat).

But GOOD shooters are even harder to find.............

This is about the umpteenth time this question has been asked here & the responses, pro & con, & all the reasons for or against, remain the same.

MM

sandcritter �

Condition 3 carry has the obvious downside that the firearm must be made ready before it can be used. For someone who finds themselves in a high risk environment this can have serious ramifications. That said, even a drawn weapon in Condition 0 or a Condition 1 carry method provide no guarantee as to the outcome of an event. Simply put, the method of carry is generally far less important than whether one is armed or not.

The other side of the coin is that no one has ever been shot by a gun with an empty chamber. Given that many unintentional discharges and subsequent injuries occur while loading or unloading the chamber or while drawing or holstering a gun with a loaded chamber, the benefit of Condition 3 is also obvious. Whether or not that benefit outweighs the disadvantage is a personal decision and I contend that there is no one right answer that applies equally to everyone.

For myself, I�ve chosen Condition 3 because I live in a low risk environment. People raise arguments about Rottweiler attacks, attacks by packs of wild dogs, car jackings, etc. Let me just say that when walking the neighborhood I�m more likely to beat a vicious dog with my walking stick than to shoot it and in 25 years I�ve yet to see or hear about any pack of wild dogs in the neighborhood. To my knowledge there has never been a car jacking in the area and, although I�m sure there have been various types of incidents at the local bar, it�s 3 miles from the house and I don�t go there. Speaking only for myself and particular situation, the advantages of a loaded chamber simply don�t outweigh the disadvantage of the increased potential for unintentional discharge. In the hundreds of times I�ve carried, never once have I felt the need to draw my weapon, let alone load the chamber. That is hundreds of times the potential for an accident has been avoided entirely, plus an equal number for each time the chamber had to be unloaded later. The fact is that in my case an unintentional discharge is far more likely than a shot fired in anger.

It may be that I am more sensitive to this than others because I carried a bullet fragment from a ricochet in my leg for 20+ years. Another time I bumped a nail gun while working in cramped quarters and gripped it more tightly to avoid dropping it - and thus buried a 2-1/2� nail in the other leg. At the range I�ve managed to drop the hammer on a live round in one of my lever action rifles when my thumb slipped, killing some dirt to the side of the target. Older Brother, who carries Condition 1 daily and has for years, put a hole in the floor of a car due to a thumb slip on a 1911. Human error aside, I�ve seen two incidents of unintentional discharges due to mechanical failures when the safety was released on firearms that had never been known to have problems before. Condition 3 eliminates the potential for any such incidents.

As with all things in life, the method and manner of carry is a personal choice that involves trade-offs. To suggest there is only one �right� way is, to my way of thinking, ignoring reality.

When the military issued me a M-15 S&W I loaded it and holstered it. When I was issued a Beretta M-9 I was handed a loaded 15 round mag. I inserted the mag, chambered a round, decocked it, and holstered it with the safety off. I do it the same for way now except with my revolvers and self loaders. Each to their own.

There is more common ground amongst the debaters than they might think. There are two separate questions being addressed: (1) How many carry with a chambered round? and (2) What is the "best" way to carry?

I think both sides agree that the fastest way to get your pistol into action it to carry with a loaded chamber. That said, some folks have stated why they don't think that it's the best way for them to carry. I think these folks realize that they are increasing their chances of their gun not saving them, but they do so consciously, preferring the decreased risk of an AD (and I'm talking mathematical probabilities here, not addressing anyone's skill and carrying/handling a gun. An empty chamber can't result in an AD.) Proponents of carrying RIC see the risk of an AD as sufficiently remote that the benefits outweigh the risks. Let the debate begin...

My thoughts:

1. Saying a pistol without a round in the chamber is as useless as a rock or scissors is flatly wrong. If I had to choose between scissors and a loaded pistol w/o a round in the chamber, I am choosing the gun. But, given the choice, I'd choose a gun w/ a round in the chamber over a gun w/o a round in the chamber.

2. Telling someone that if they won't carry Condition 1, then they shouldn't carry at all is also wrong. Again, a person is better off with a gun w/o a chambered round than no gun at all. However, I encourage people to consider how many times their hammer has accidentally dropped on their unloaded chamber. So far, 100% of the people I've asked have said "never." When I started carrying, I conducted an experiment and actually carried my 1911 with a loaded magazine, chamber unloaded, hammer back, and safety off. I wanted to see how easy (or hard) it was to accidently jostle/bump the gun and make the hammer drop. After a month, it didn't happen once. So I began carrying with a chambered round and also use the safety.

In my experience, it's the women who are afraid to carry with one in the chamber. Like the rest of us, they recognize that they are increasing their risk of not being able to use their gun when they need it most, but that increased risk does not overcome their fear of an AD--by them or somebody else getting their hands on their gun. Even after months of owning and carrying their gun safely, they simply will not chamber a round. Again, I believe that person is better off in Condition 3 than with no gun at all. I say that we should encourage them to continue to carry and encourage (not berate) them to try carrying Condition 1 occasionally--like on a quick trip to the store. Just do it once and see how it goes. They will, hopefully, become comfortable with the notion and do it more and more. Like overcoming other fears, sometimes small steps lead to success.

3. In my personal life, I've drawn my gun, thinking I was going to fire it, exactly once. (A pit bull came out from under a porch onto the sidewalk and headed for a small dog that my daughter was walking). It happened very suddenly. My 1911 was in my hand and the safety was off before I even could think about what I was doing. I think dogs can sense fear. I also think they can sense when someone is not afraid. I had no fear as I yelled that dog back to his house, keeping the gun on him the whole time.) There are three or four other situations where I didn't need to pull my gun, but I encountered people rather unexpectedly. Had they been "bad guys" I don't think I would have had time to chamber a round. Once, a guy came up behind me in a parking lot as I was my loading groceries. He needed directions how to get back to the freeway. I turned around and there he was, 2 feet from me. Another time, my wife and I were walking to our car in a movie theater parking lot. 2 girls jumped out from between two cars to scare us. They mistook us for the parents of one of the girls. Had they been "bad guys" the fight would have been on at very close quarters with no notice. In that case, just getting my gun out might have been difficult. Chambering a round would have added a whole new level of complexity.

I am sorry for the long post. I'll conclude with this: If you don't carry Condition 1, I still say "good for you" just for having a gun with you! However, your gun becomes so much more useful when you carry with a round in the chamber. Take a hard look at your situation and maybe reconsider you position.

My best wishes to us all!

Yes

All six chambers

+!�.. Perfectly stated

"Older Brother, who carries Condition 1 daily and has for years, put a hole in the floor of a car due to a thumb slip on a 1911."

CH...a "thumb slip"? That sounds like he was going from cocked to Condition II as in round in chamber with hammer down....

Bob

To no one in particular, I'm a bit more comfy with either my Kahr P-9 or P-45 ready to roar than I am with either of my Kimbers in condition 1..although both have the ambi-safety and I practice a lot with it, dry..

Those DAO P-series make it dang hard, nay - potentially impossible - to have an AD..

+ Redneck, I didnt pay 1500 bucks for a damn club, pistolas need to pop ASAFP when ya need 'em.

Gunner

What about having the slide locked back so you can put a RIC by pushing the button down? I do this at night on my nightstand.

For some reason, I was never comfortable with a 1911 cocked and locked either. Weather real or just perceived, the thought of an AD was always there. I am perfectly comfortable with other gun designs with a round in the chamber. There are many designs that make a chambered round just as safe as a round in a magazine.

I know to keep my finger off a trigger until ready to fire due to 35 years of safe gun handling. I also take particular caution when holstering a carry gun. With some holster designs, I will only holster when removed and then reattach the gun and holster as one unit. I will remove the same way for storage. I think a lot of AD takes place when holstering and clothing catches the trigger.

, dats gonna be a bit noisy Amigo, stay silent and drill the first thing you see out of the ordinary.

Gunner

LMAO.. Well, I DID (at one time) pay nearly that for a mere pool cue..

(it was worth every cent, btw)..

I hear ya - and agree for sure..

Hot, ready to defend.

HMMMMMMMMMM, Fast Eddie Redneck, has a definite ring to it.

Gunner

Waders one of the best posts ever on the subject, nicely done sir.

it mostly comes down to training and confidence.

if a person is "worried" about having a hot chamber then they shouldn't have one

if a person feels confident enough in their abilities to carry hot then perhaps they should

we're talking dangerous tools here in a similar realm as chainsaws.

not knowing how to operate your tool sufficiently can have disastrous consequences

it really boils down to a man has to know his limitations


just because some guys that own a chainsaw shouldn't be felling trees in tricky locations doesn't mean they shouldn't own a chainsaw.

same applies for firearms in my experience

IMO, carrying without a round in the chamber can be compared to carrying guns in not so well thought of cartridges like the .25acp or the .22lr. Not optimal by any means but light years ahead of a harsh language.

Being said, I was brought up to carry my hunting guns with a round in the chamber and the safety on. That's carried right over to my handgun less one exception....... On occasion and in times of extreme concealabilty needs a Raven .25 will find it's way into my pocket. That gun never ever see's a round in the chamber till it's time to pull the trigger. So I'm running with 3 strikes against me in that case. Bad gun, bad round and nothing in the pipe. Oh the humanity, how do I make it home?

.....but even the most pan-phobic, casper-milktoast lumberjack wouldn't fear keeping gasoline in the tank of his chainsaw while he's carrying it to the woods. Of course, I could be wrong.

pretty sure CA law says the fuel mix has to be in a separate container and kept in the trunk


poor damn friends of mine in CA, they got some goofy fing folks on the coasts and in their capitol

Bump, for the benefit of the latest thread on this topic.

Yes

Well...............you do live near Mayberry.

EVERYONE ought to know how to rack a slide one handed. And it should only slow things down by one second at the outside. I can do it in a second or less with my LW Commander which has a (i think) 20lb recoil spring; one of the hardest slides to rack I've ever had.

Bumping this. The "What Do Clueful People Carry" thread has evolved to the point that this thread is worth reviewing.

I live by this... if you want to carry without a round in the chamber that is fine. No one should tell you different. That being said, i used to be this way. I carry in condition 1 now with my shield because it has a safety (i do prefer a gun with a safety for re-holstering). I also carry a kahr without a safety in cond 0 basically. The reason for this is, violence or an attack can happen quickly and i started to become aware of that thru situational training. Criminals prey on those who are obvious targets or obviously unprepared. Criminals are already prepared, you are not once you become their target. So what i am saying is, if you are standing there pointing a gun at them fully aware you are about to be attacked they probably won't attack you and move on. This never happens in the real world. They always pick out the oblivious. I once heard it put this way... if you knew you were going to get in a car accident wouldn't you just swerve out of the way? Well yah, but thats not how it happens. It happens too fast. Violence can happen just like a car accident and most times it does.

Criminals use "shock and awe" and attack quickly to overpower a victim. The catch by surprise as its their huge advantage. I decided i don't want to be surprised and have to rack my slide. I also don't want to draw attention if i am hiding behind cover and racking my slide (it may be audible). I want to be just as "surprising" to them as they were to me. Now the playing field is more even.

The point here is do what you want, but just know it may be that you are unprepared if ever attacked. Try racking the slide on a Kahr with one hand. That will show you that you need two hands pretty quickly and if one arm is disabled in an attack you may be screwed. I just make a effort to look directly at my holster if i am reholstering after shooting on a range or whatever. I don't go by feel. I use my eyes to make sure nothing is in the way of the trigger. Its what i did to convince myself that its okay to carry chambered many years ago.

Unfortunately, there exist pistols that ain't too safe to carry chambered.

Unfortunately there exists people that ain't too safe to carry chambered.

As I was once told by a wise old man, a handgun that is intended for self defense should have one in the chamber!
If it doesn’t, it’s an expensive hammer.

Given the choice of access to a Condition Three handgun (empty chamber, full mag, hammer down) or a hammer, which would that "wise man" choose?

Carrying an unloaded weapon is retarded.

Yoteman: The obvious point is that in a time restrained situation, there is no difference.

Carry as you see fit.

Obviously, wise councel is wasted on some.

He’d pick up the handgun, chamber a round and go about his business.

George

if the fellow needed it 'yesterday', he would use the hammer and pray. Gun gamers that practice all day long might go for getting the inoperative handgun into play, but for most, I think bashing 'em with the hammer would be quicker.

I am firmly and devotedly in the Condition One camp………having said that, I readily admit that on those increasingly frequent occasions when I'm pocket-carrying (a G-43 or Shield in a Sticky holster in my strong-side front pocket), producing the gun is a slow enough process compared to holster-carry, that the additional time required to rack the slide would be irrelevant time wise. I practice concealed holster-carry drawing, but have been negligent in practicing pocket-carry drawing. I need to work on that.

If one believes that a pocket-carry gun is generally a back-up, and best designed for close encounter, bad-breath-contact-distance encounters, then the chances of the support hand being engaged deflecting blows, fighting off the adversary, makes the opportunity to rack the slide impossible. Yet another reason for Condition One carry (or carrying a J-frame).

If I proposed that at some point in the next week, month, or even year, I would find and approach you with a SIM gun.....And if I get the drop on you I get everything you have. Your home, money, family, all of it.

How you you carry for that next week, month or year?

Depends...

Its not a wepon at that point.

Pull that unloaded weapon ( you say is not a weapon at that point) and level it at a Trooper or any other LEO or CHL holder an see what happens, in the twinkle of an eye.

For the carrier, it isnt.
Wasn't that the question?

Semantics aside, having an unloaded gun in a defensive situation is like carrying a toothbrush for defense against everything but cavities.

Carry with one in the chamber

I do.

"Wise councel [sic]"? You take a lot on yourself in attempting to define what is best for everyone.

Unlike Big Brother, I've never been allowed to carry at work. Nor do I like leaving a weapon in the car, so for years I didn't carry even though I had my license to do so. At those times all I had was a folding knife that could be opened one handed. The one time I've needed my carry gun I had over 10 minutes while the situation developed - more than enough time to chamber a round. But I was on my way to work and the gun was at home. Fortunately the knife was enough, and there was plenty of time to bring it to "Condiition Zero" (in hand and opened), which I did. And, fortunately, the knife was enough.

The point is that many situations are slow developing. I would contend that most are, if one pays attention to their surroundings and acts accordingly.

When my gun in left in the car (at work), I leave it in Condition Three. If I transitioned from Three to One or back every time I entered or left the car, there would be tens of thousands of opportunities for an AD/ND. By leaving my gun in Condition Three those opportunities have been and will continue to be avoided.

The facts are that most people are at far greater risk of dying of cancer, heart attack, stroke or other health issues arising from poor health habits than by gunshot. Same is true for most people regardless of their health habits, for that matter.

Although some deny it, foolishly claiming no place is safer than others, life-style decisions have a huge impact on your vulnerability. Avoid bars, crowds, high crime areas and other questionable environs and stay alert and your chances of needing a CCW approach zero. Your chances of needing your CCW in Condition One drop even further.

But many situations are fast developing. Your free to ignore that fact.

This is true. Also, some situations are slow developing and a person may want to anticipate the situation and do a stealth draw to be ahead of the 8 ball instead of behind it. Having to chamber is a big "tell" and gives away the advantage of surprise.

I don't ignore that fact but many of those situations are entirely avoidable, too. If I think there is a likelihood of such an event, I go to Condition One. But that has been pretty rare.

Do you smoke? Those that do, those that drink too much, text while driving or engage in any other number of activities are at far higher risk of an unwanted end than I am using Condition Three as my main carry method.

Instead of trying to defend the advisability of carrying an unloaded weapon, why not just admit that loaded guns, even those under your control, make you nervous. We'd all understand that, and no one would criticize you for it.

No I don’t smoke or drink too much and if I’m going to carry a club it will be a baseball bat. If you are so good at avoiding situations that call for a loaded weapon, then you really don’t need a handgun at all. Glad to see your crystal ball is in working order.

Chambered removes the unpredictable variable, and safety ALWAYS lies entirely at the feet of the operator, not the tool.

Being mentally prepared to use your weapon can be as important as having your weapon prepared for use. Assuming you will never use your weapon for self defense and further assuming you will probably have time to charge your weapon prior to its use is...well...not being mentally prepared to use deadly force. While it's still a free country and you are free to think how you will, and free to carry as the law allows, just know that you already have two strikes against your survival "in the unlikely event" of a deadly force encounter. Your life, your risks.

If carrying a loaded weapon made me nervous, I would never carry a revolver. But I do so frequently.

The semis I carry range from safety to no safety, safety up to safety down, SA to DA/SA to DAO, hammer to striker. Empty chamber, safety off makes them all the same. In this case, I prefer 'same' to 'different'.

It isn't carrying them loaded chamber that makes me uncomfortable, it is the recognition that in the many transitions from Condition Three to Condition One and back there is a likelihood of an AD/ND at some point in time. I've been carrying pretty much every day for 10-11 years, and intermittently for several years prior, and I don't leave my semis in Condition One when they are in the car or safe. By my calculations I've avoided around 8,000 to 10,000 thumb-slip AD/ND opportunities during that time by carrying empty chamber. I've simply made the calculation that such an incident is more likely than the chance that I'll find myself in a situation where chambering a round is not possible due to constraints of time or physical ability. If I lived in Denver I'd carry loaded chamber. When my wife and I spend the night in Denver, that's exactly what I do.

Perhaps you've never experienced such an event. Good for you. I had one with a Marlin levergun at the range, Big Brother perforated his car with one (in 30+ years of CCW for him) and I know of others that had have experienced such an incident. Carry long enough and there is a good chance it will happen to you, too.

Carry a semi-auto as it's designed to be carried, and you won't have that issue.

why on earth would i ever unload my carry gun?

Pushing forty years now of concealed carry. So far, so good. I guess carrying guns the way they're designed to be carried is pretty safe.

More evidence of the good luck charm vs. tool debate.....

Lowering the hammer on that lever gun, were you?

I'm still wondering why you think you have to make such transitions with a handgun that you are carrying. My pistols are either loaded or not. The 1911 is C&L when loaded. If I want to unload it, I drop the mag and eject the round in the chamber. Load it back up and chamber a round - safety on. The hammer can stay right where it is. Where is this transition of which you speak? Having trouble keeping your finger out of the trigger guard? DAO pistol - even easier. No safety to deal with. Trigger pull like a DA revolver (only better). What transition? Is it the DA/SA pistol that's the problem in your mind? Why not just eliminate that one from your carry practice? Is it the hammer back that scares you? There are plenty of good pistols that don't use that system and either have long revolver-like trigger pulls or redundant safeties. Personally - I'd ditch that little Beretta .25 simply on the basis of needing to thumb the hammer back from "half-cock safe".

It would make more sense to get your operating systems on a smaller map, so you can actually be ready.

BTW - I've been carrying a lot longer than you, and so have a lot of others here. I'd quit leaning on that statistic if I were you. It is meaningless.

Well, just for cleaning..

It's the only reason I unload mine - unless I'm changing ammo at the range..

There are many who believe that it's actually safer to store guns loaded, so no one ever gets the presumption of an unloaded gun. An unloaded gun is either the most worthless item there is, or the most dangerous accident waiting to happen.

+1, all my guns except hunting rifles are loaded all the time. I kind of agree that someone who carries with no round in the chamber is a bit odd, sort of like an oxymoron only different.

One in the chamber, hammer down, safety on. Use de cocker to lower hammer.. I prefer a safety, I swipe without thinking on draw. Also know how to work slide one handed if needed.

Well....DA, hammer down, safety on is a better solution than an empty chamber....how much is debatable, but definitely better.

YEP. = Unless I'm in a place where licensed carry is PROHIBITED by law, my little S&W Shield is on my belt & loaded w/one in the chamber.
(I don't "go out looking for trouble" but Darla & I are armed, in case "trouble" comes looking for us.)

As an old Colonel at USAMPS used to say, "Handguns are like parachutes. If you need either one & don't have one, you won't ever need it again."

"The Falcon" also said, "Gentlemen, it is entirely possible that you may complete your career as a peace officer, without even once needing to defend yourself with deadly force. But there may come a BAD day, when you need a pistol badly, so it is my opinion that you should always go about your day, armed & prepared for any unfortunate circumstance."

yours, tex

Does it bother you at all that you are almost completely alone in assuming that your Very Bad Day will be slow in developing, and you'll see it coming? Do you know of any qualified instructors in the free regions of the US that espouse such an idea and advise carrying with an empty chamber?

All my carry guns have one in the pipe. Keeping your booger hook off the bang switch and holstering without obstructions creates zero ND’s.

Does it bother me? Not at all.

When I go to the airport I go unarmed as I don't want to leave a weapon in the car at the parking lot, especially since I valet park. Then I spend the next few days wandering around cities in the US and other countries with, if I'm lucky, a thumb-open folding knife. (Donated another one to the TSA last week.) This is my first full week home since September, so most of the time I have no option to carry a firearm at all. When I'm out and about while at home I'm usually with my wife, who carries a .38 Ruger LCR (read "DA revolver in Condition Two"). The most likely time for a 'situation' when I'm out by myself is when I'm walking between my car and a business, which is almost always in broad daylight and very, very rarely in areas where I have a concern about getting jumped. When I do have such a concern, I go to Condition One or Two, depending on the weapon I'm carrying. (One of my semi's has no safety, making Condition One very unsafe for carry, and two have hammer-drop safeties and are thus incapable of Condition One.) As I stated in a previous post though, the times I've put a semi in Condition One in the 15-16 years I've had my carry license has been very limited - once or twice a year on average. When I carry a revolver it is in Condition Two all the time.

I can point to a large number of instances where an AD/ND occurred because a handgun was being transitioned to/from Condition One or was in Condition One and a momentary lapse in proper handling caused a discharge. I can also point to situations where firearm safeties have inadvertently moved to the "Fire" position after catching on clothing or brush and hammer-drop safeties have caused discharges when used. (My Walther PPK/s was recalled because of that problem.) I trust an empty chamber far more than I trust a mechanical safety and a light semi-auto trigger.

You cannot point to ANY instance where a firearm in Condition Three has discharged because it is physically impossible. Just sayin'.

Somehow I've lived 66 years without needing a firearm in Condition Zero, which is really the Condition of most importance. But yes, some firearm instructors do preach awareness and avoidance as a means of reducing risk - and rightfully so. If I was a city dweller, I'd probably carry Condition One all the time. But I'm not, and don't. While some people carry at home, I do not - although we have house guns (DA revolvers) that are readily available. And as I sit here at my desk my .40 Shield is an arm's length away - in Condition Three.

I'm sitting here reading this with a 9mm Shield in an IWB kydex holster with a 147 gr Federal HST +p round in the chamber. If I need it, it will go bang as soon as I draw the gun and pull the trigger. Yet the kydex holster completely blocks the trigger rendering it just as safe as an empty chamber.

I don't see why it's so important for people to "win" this discussion. CH seems quite aware of the risks involved with his carry choice. It's his call, let him live with it and move on.

I've carried all sorts of handguns in the past, almost, forty years. I've carried double action revolvers, traditional double actions autos with decockers, double-action-only semi-autos, traditional single action autos, and striker-fired auto pistols. Not one time was I required (in order to carry concealed in a ready condition) to put any faith in fine motor coordination to control the hammer down in order not to accidentally fire the weapon. If you have been in that situation, then I contend you were doing something very wrong.

Awareness and avoidance does not get thrown out the window when one realizes the need to always carry chambered.

I know firsthand that there simply is not enough time to go from condition three to zero in a deadly force event.

Choose the platform and action which you can put into action RIGHT NOW but yet feel confident in its safety while carried. It really is that simple.

It's not about winning. It's certainly not about changing CH's mind. But I do agree that after his last response, there is no further point in it.

What exactly is "a double action revolver - Condition Two"?

This.

A six shot, loaded with five, cylinder aligned for carry where the first trigger pull is akin to flippin' a safety! HA!

What would WBH do?

Who?

Wild Bill Hickock

The fact that one fears an AD/ND more than having a useless weapon is very, very telling.

Damn... Who'd a thunk of something so stupid with a modern double action revolver? Just... damn!

Way I see it,...if you ever need a firearm, you're going to need it right damn now. And the truth is, you're still going to stand a good chance of getting shot before you can get it out.

If you don't have a round in the chamber you're going to get shot more than once before you can get it into action.

More evidence that this fella would be better off without a gun at all...entirely too scared of them.

While we're at it, who is the "Big Brother" that CH keeps referring to? It appears to be a specific person, not the .gov as most of us think of when we hear "big brother".

Not that I really care, mostly just following this thread for the entertainment.

Just a minute - I don't think CH ever stated that. I was the one that mentioned the idea of carrying a revolver with the empty chamber first-out as a comparison to what he does with a pistol. I don't know what he means by "cond 2" for a revolver, but I wouldn't assume that was it.

I thought there was no question that he was referring to an older brother.

I've been wondering that, too.

I thought of that, but he capitalizes it, like Orwell.

Maybe I'm wrong about that, but I capitalize Dad and Mom too, when talking about my own. I can't recall ever writing about my brothers, but I would logically default to "dad" if I was writing it with the "my" qualifier. I think this is way off any point of this thread anyway....

Was a "tongue in cheek" response... for laughs!

Until you draw and find the barrel still pointed at your leg.

Condition Two is considered loaded chamber, loaded magazine, hammer down. Pretty well describes the way I carry a revolver. On the old Colts and others they carried hammer down on an empty chamber for safety reasons. I'd consider that Condition Three.

Condition Two is hammer down on a loaded chamber with a loaded mag in place. Hammer down on a fully loaded revolver pretty well meets that description.

Unless you are from a different planet or something.

I agree that pulling the trigger on a loaded DA revolver is akin to flipping the safety on a Condition One semi. The difference with my handguns is the trigger pull - the revolvers are heavy, the semis are light. Big difference.

Big Brother is exactly that. He's been carrying for 30-40 years in Condition One and gives me the same crap people here do about carrying in Condition Three..

I have no intention of changing. Deal with it.

Chit... here in the Ozarks we just call that "Condition Two double action revolver"... a loaded gun.

'Condition Two' is more descriptive than 'loaded gun' as it indicates the hammer position as well as chamber status. A revolver with a loaded cylinder and the hammer cocked is very different than one with the hammer down. But perhaps you haven't noticed.

Come on guys. These threads get dumb enough without assigning the conditions of readiness, for semi-automatic pistols, to revolvers.

I would notice a cocked hammer on a revolver. And since a basic gun safety rule is to always consider a gun loaded until you know different I would consider a handgun, cocked or uncocked, loaded until I knew differently. If someone made up a name to describe its status, I'd still consider the gun loaded until I knew different. I'd also question if they knew what the hell they were talking about since that term is applied to semi automatic pistols and not revolvers and I'd be very cautious around them if they were handling a firearm. In fact, I might discourage that until they had some formal training and experience.

I do not carry a concealed handgun because I think it's cool, or because I especially like to, or because everyone else is............I carry one in order to protect me and my family from potential harm, and I consider it an absolute requirement that I be able to get it into action as quickly as possible. In a gunfight, the winner is probably going to be the one who shoots first, providing of course, that he knows how to shoot. That is why I always carry with a round in the chamber. If one is carrying a semi-auto without a round in the chamber, there is always that possibility that if they have to rack the slide in order to chamber a round, they might be unable to do so. That's a chance I'm unwilling to take.

I shoot competitions that DQ you for sweeping yourself, haven't been DQ'd yet nor have I had an ND. Finger is out of the trigger guard till gun is on target. Still safer than having to put a round in the chamber when you need it. I know competitions are won by split seconds, I bet gun fights are too.

Still more scared of the gun than the bad guy, and lacking any faith whatsoever in your own training and skills.

Of course they are.

Absolutely carry with a round in the chamber.
Of my three choices for pocket carry, two are revolvers anyway. A 357 magnum and a 44 Special.
My third is a Ruger LCP2, 6 in the magazine, one in the chamber.

We live in a rural, very low crime area, but one just never knows what's around the corner.

While I'm fully aware that Col. Cooper's modal conditions are typically applied to semi-auto handguns, their basic definitions can be applied equally well to rifles and revolvers as there is nothing in those definitions to prevent doing so. The critical components of those definitions are chamber full or empty, hammer cocked or not, magazine in place or not, magazine loaded or not. A revolver's cylinder can be loaded or not, striker fired and bolt-action weapons can be cocked or not and it really doesn't matter if the magazine is tubular, stacked, rotary or detachable or whether the firearm is a single-shot with no magazine at all.

Does attaching a buttstock to a semi-auto pistol change the modes of readiness that are possible? No. Does a longer barrel affect the modes? No. Does changing from an autoloader to a lever or bolt-action really change the possible modes of readiness that are possible? No. Is there a significant difference in the various states of readiness that are possible with a pistol-gripped AR with a rifle length barrel and a semi-auto, striker-fired pistol with a safety and a 3" barrel? No. Or the High Standard Model C .22 Short pistol and Remington Model 24 .22 Short semi-auto rifle I've been shooting for the last 60 years? No.

How would you define the possible states for a single-shot, breech-loaded pistol built on a 1911 frame? Or a bolt action pistol built on a 1911 frame? Or an auto-loader carbine built on a 1911 frame? All of these exist.

I didn't make up a name, I just recognize that Cooper's definitions apply more or less equally well to a wider variety of firearms than just the 1911 pistols he favored.

Coyote Hunter,
Seriously, you seem like a good guy with good intentions. You'll do what you want to do because no amount of discussion can sway what you believe is the right way to handle a self defense firearm. Most of the people responding to you recognize your fear of a negligent discharge is only because of your insistence of carrying with an empty chamber. The constant manipulation of the firearm increases your risk. Most ccw folks recognize the very real possible immediate need for a self defense weapon because we have no crystal ball warning of eminent threats. So, we charge the gun and then quit monkeying with it. Safer because we aren't constantly manipulating the weapon and safer in case we need the gun in an emergency to save our life or the life of others. I agree with the poster that stated you fear handling your firearm. I could be wrong. Regardless you carry on as you think best and a sincere best wishes.

If I understand correctly, Condition One = fully charged, cocked, safety on. Condition Two = fully charged, not cocked,safety on. No safety on a revolver, so I would say the terms don't apply to all firearms. What am I missing? Not being argumentative, genuinely curious.

I skipped the entire thread knowing it contained a bunch of posts from a bunch of "experts" telling a bunch of others that they are stupid for doing things the way they personally prefer, to answer the question posed in the title. Yes, always.

Pretty close. Both conditions include a loaded mag in place. If this is included in your "fully charged", as I believe is the case, you are spot on.

Most modern revolvers have transfer-bar or other safeties that are disabled when the trigger is pulled.

The belief that revolvers do not have external safeties is generally true, although as late as 1970 the S&W Model 40 was available with a grip safety and there have been a few others with external safeties as well.

When my LCR or SP101 are "fully charged" (loaded in all chambers) with the hammer down and the trigger in the forward position (hammer block safety enabled), I don't think it's a big stretch to consider them in "Condition Two". In any case, they are similar in mode to a semi-auto with a trigger safety but no external thumb safety.

Anyone that carries without a round in the chamber is afraid of their gun.

If the choice was a loaded revolver or a chamber empty semj, give me a revolver everytime.
I don't care that the semi is smaller, lighter and has double or more capacity. The revolver, loaded and ready
trumps everything,

Well sure aint afraid of my gun , but I have carried without One in the Chamber. When the risk of that was greater than the risk of needing it immediately. Example when I carry a Glock 30 with no holster just in my waistband the reason I do that sometime just to get it low enough with a gun don't stab me in the ribs when sitting in a tractor Dozer backhoe excetera the biggest red I have there was probably from armadillos or something so I didn't carry One in the Chamber with no holster make sense to some of you yeah. Now if I'm carrying in a good holster and going in an environment that the risk would go up of needing to use such pistol well then one is in the chamber.

By that logic, when I carry my weapon in Condition One or Two, which I frequently do at the range and occasionally elsewhere, I am not afraid of it. But then, when I decide to carry the same weapon empty chamber, I'm afraid of it?

I've been carrying semi-auto handguns in Condition One since 1960 or so when I first started carrying Granddad's High Standard .22 on the farm. Condition One is hardly something new to me.

When I look at my semi-auto handgun collection, five are capable of Condition One, three are not. Four are capable of Condition Two, four are not. Five are safety down to fire, two are safety up, one has no safety at all.

In Condition Three, they are all the same, which I find advantageous. Does Three have a disadvantage under selected circumstances? Of course.

Of the two semis I currently use for EDC, one is Condition One capable, the other is not. One is safety up, the other safety down. Whether they are in the safe, on my hip or in the house and high out of reach of the grandkids (oldest is 3-1/2), they are in Condition Three - which makes them the same. I like same.

sorry dude after doing some reading on this subject its obvious your afraid of something, there is some discomfort up there in your head, you call it reasonability but its just rationalization of a fear. Get a Glock and you won't have to thumb down the hammer. In full disclosure I have a fear as well! I wont appendix carry with a G19 and a round in the chamber and no holster, I am afraid it might blow my Johnson off by accident, so I use a good holster!!

If someone is scared to the point I'm reading here, then I'd be more comfortable with them not carrying at all.

Are we at Defcon 3 yet?

There's certainly new scales being defined here...

Condition 1) My tummy is rumbling.

Condition 2) Wait. That was just a fart.

Condition 3) Oh Hell. Does anyone have a roll of paper towels?

Guys - we've been had...



Previously, in this thread...

This little tid-bit from another thread may give us a hint as to that fear....

“We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.”

Do you have a reading comprehension problem? I stand by what I said and it is not at all contradictory.

In 1960 I was a 9 year-old kid. Carrying Granddad's .22 High Standard was hardly a "pretty much every day" event, as our farm was several miles away. Nevertheless, my brothers and I did a LOT of shooting and hunting at Granddad's. We'd ride our bikes over pretty much whenever we wanted to. Since we rarely had more than a box or two of bullets and Granddad always had bricks, I probably shot more at Granddad's place than on the home farm. I loved shooting the High Standard and would do so often. Still do, as I got it when Granddad passed away.

I got my CCW license in 2003 when Colorado became a "shall issue" state. I didn't start carrying "pretty much every day" until 2007 or 2008.

I’m with you. I would only appendix carry a double action auto or a double action revolver. Same reason.

Like cockroaches, this thread seems likely to survive Armageddon.

Be patient, I think we're just a couple pages away from everyone being in agreement.

Not contradictory - just incomplete. Thanks for clearing that up. But you can't deny the implication of greater experience you allowed - intentionally or not. No comprehension problem here. Big difference between "I've been carrying since..." and "I carried when I was a kid". And "..for several years prior..." implies a later start. Call it a minor oversight though. Carry on...

I'm worse. I just won't do it. No way. And I'll freely admit that is an irrational decision.

Sorry for the confusion. I assumed the "..for several years prior..." would correctly be understood to mean licensed CCW. In retrospect I understand how it could be confusing. My bad.

As a kid it was all open carry on private property, no CCW required.

Appendix carry should be renamed with a more appropriate name:

Right Nut Carry

Left Nut Carry

Nut Sack Carry

You forgot femoral artery carry.

It's all good.

You call it "fear", I call it "prudence". You base your decision on a certain set of factors, I base mine on another. I suspect we both come to our choices based on a rational "least risk" assessment, in which a primary tenet is that having a weapon when needed is better than having none. People far better trained and far more experienced carrying loaded chamber have had AD/ND incidents as a direct result of carrying that way. No one has ever had an AD/ND with an empty chamber. None. Ever.

I could just as easily say you "fear" using anything less than a loaded chamber. Maybe in your environment that "fear" is rational. I don't believe it is in mine. When I'm travelling by plane, which is almost every week, my firearms get left at home. In many places my CCW weapon is sorely missed and a Condition One or Two carry (firearm dependent) would be my choice. Instead, I'm stuck with a thumb-open knife - and that assumes I don't donate it to TSA when leaving Denver, as I did on my last trip.

A Glock doesn't offer anything my Shield doesn't offer in the way of safety. Less, in fact, as my Shield has a thumb safety. (Although I only use it when the chamber is loaded.)