230 grain XTP 1100 plus FPS next to 180 grain XTP 1300 plus FPS



The reason I prefer the 45.

I think I like the 45!

Was there any difference in penetration? Just curious.

jwp,

What were they recovered from?

Jerry

We just had a heavy rain and I was shooting a pop can on the water soaked ground. I did not use a tape measure penetration but both appeared to penetrate about equal. I will do a proper test between the 2 when time permits me to gather the proper materials.

How was penetration?

Note: You gotta love the XTP bullet. That .45 Super pushed that 230 grain XTP beyond what it was intended to do, and look at how well it held together while being flattened nearly to being a washer. That's just impressive.

Originally Posted by jwp475

We just had a heavy rain and I was shooting a pop can on the water soaked ground. I did not use a tape measure penetration but both appeared to penetrate about equal. I will do a proper test between the 2 when time permits me to gather the proper materials.

I, too am impressed that those XTP's held together so well. I generally try to load Gold Dots, but those are nearly impossible to find on a shelf these days so I have been loading some Brass Plated hollow points that look like a Remington Golden Sabre. I might have to see how my recipe for the Gold Dots (14.6gr of AA#9, 1375fps) does with the XTP's, starting a bit lower on the powder charge when changing bullets, of course, and working back up slowly and with a chronograph.

IMPORTANT NOTE!!! THESE LOADS are safe in my 10mm which has a FULLY RAMPED BARREL, and when used in only brand new Starline Brass. Do not replicate these loads and try to run them in old brass or in a handgun that does not fully support the brass case!

I run the 45 Super too in a Sig 5" 1911. Mine will push 200's to 1285 fps.

I wouldn't choose a 10mm over the Super for any reason.

Yep!

Very nice. The reason I choose it too!!

I'd choose the 10mm over the .45 Super. That's because the 10mm is a factory round that has been extensively tested in the guns it is designed for. The 45 Super is not. E

I think that depends on how "factory" you want to get. I believe at one time .45 Super has been made as a "factory" round. And there were a couple of copies (Triton IIRC) who made an identical round with a different name.

Here's a bunch of factory .45 Super: http://www.underwoodammo.com/45super.aspx

The only .45 Super guns were those made by Hindman since he has the copyright on the name ".45 Super"

The 10mm in its original factory loade spec is about 38,000 psi and a 45 Super is about 28,000 psi don't you.

The 10mm's SAAMI design pressure is 37,500 psi. All of the factory made guns were designed for this level of pressure.
There are no ".45 Super" guns made by any of the significant makers of .45 ACP pistols.
I suspect it is because the ammo made for the .45 Super is way over the SAAMI level for +P .45 ACP ammo. Such ammo can be expected to damage a .45 ACP pistol. While one can argue that limited use might prevent significant damage, such damage can not be reliabily predicted to happen at a certain number of rounds. Therefore, a person using such ammo is gambling on his gun working with it, especially when he'd really need it to work.
If others wish to gamble with the reliability of their choice of handguns, that's up to them. Frankly, if I need more power than a standard SAAMI .45 ACP load will give me, I'll break out a .44 Magnum. E

Someone did figure out to better the 10mm and Super. Check out the Wilson Combat Hunter. Hint: not the 10mm version.

Yes, Ace's last name was Hindman (don't remember his first name.).

The cartridge was developed by Dean Grennell of Gun World fame, and the gun was created by ACE Custom Guns (Hindman). ACE retained all the patents. He actually patented the cartridge. The .45 Super copies typically have small pistol primers so as not to infringe on the patent.

Triton ammunition wanted to make .45 super but ran into issues with ACE, so they created a "new cartridge" called the SMC (which reportedly stood for suck my C@#k - in reference to Hindman). They did load some .45 Super ammunition with a 185 grain Flat Point FMG for the Navy Special Warfare to be used in their Mk 23 H&K pistols. Other than the owner of Triton mentioning that they did load that for the Navy, I've never heard anything more about it.

The .45 Super is a brilliant load.

I be damn. Interesting.

Thank god not everyone only wants a factory round and firearm Thais SaAAMI spec'ed because if that were the case, we would be missing many great cartridges. The 475 Linebaugh,in 1988 I had to make my own cases and bullet, but now we can by factory made revolvers and ammo. We proved their reliability and the platforms ability to contain them. The same could be said of the 454 Casul, and the Weatherby cartridges as well, they were loaded and sold for decades without being SAAMI'd.

We might still be throwing sticks and stone at game.

I am kinda starting to want me a .45.



Travis

Blue is my response,

Jerry

+1.........

I've got several boxes of the Triton 450 SMC, aka 450 Short Magnum Cartridge in 165 gr and 230 gr loads. It's loaded to pretty potent power levels. I also run Buffalo Bore 255 gr hardcast in my 1911.
I dumped a Glock 20 and replaced it with the 1911 in 45 Super.

A properly built and timed 1911 can shoot both ACP and Super/SMC interchangeably, IMHO it is by far one of the most universal combinations you can have and quite under valued.

SMC and Super are identical except for primer size which is used, supers use lG PP While the SMC uses Sm.

Double Tap loads a number of potent loading as well in the SMC

But to do this correctly you need two different recoil springs.
Standard for the 45 ACP loads, including mild target.
Heavier for the Super. Read the history on the Super.
Even with a Square bottom firing pin stop and stronger main spring.

Takes about 2 minutes to switch out the recoil springs.

Takes about 2 minutes to switch out to the 460 with the Comp barrel also.
Much easier on the slide/frame than the Super. Do the research.
This "chambered" comp allows the barrel/slide disengagement to happened at around 45 +P pressures.
The Super caused too many problems. Again read up on it. That is why Johnney Rowland, Clark Custom and Wilson Combat came up with a better idea. I like the idea of NOT being able to load a ACP chamber with a hot round.

If you ever shot the 460. You would know. You can shoot the 460 with the comped barrel accurately as fast as any 45 ACP +P. I'm using a 20# Recoil spring in the 460. Cases eject 4 to 5 feet. Can't do that with a Super without the comp.

The 45 SUPER. Been there, done that. It tears your guns up. Slide velocity is too high on the return with the heavy springs needed. In some case the magazine spring has to be increased also to feed at this slide velocity.

Simple as this. If you have not experienced the 460 Rowland, you need to try one.

Mine is set up completely different. JRH increased the lock-up time with an 18,5 pound recoil spring. Throws brass 5 to 8 feet max. Shoots ACP and Super without the need to change springs. Clark only adds a heavier spring and that is why I did not choose to go that route.

Mat has shot more than one 460 Rowland. I am glad that you like yours, if it were not for the need of a compensator I might have gone that route. I simply do not want to add a compensator to my daily carry pistol.

I also do not like the heavy recoil springs for the reasons that you stated.

I did not say anything about daily carry. I either carry a S&W 60 with 3" barrel with adjustable sights or a Lightweight commander in 45 ACP. 45 ACP is plenty for daily carry. I use my 460 ON THE FARM. I hunt whitetail with it also. We have Eurasia hogs roaming the farm. I have been attack once. One of my sons carries a Delta Elite, the other carries a S&W 686 plus with 170gr Gold Dot Flat points.

It is very comfortable to carry a 1911 and crawl in and out of a truck, tractor or ATV. Cut wood whatever.

The comp is no problem what so ever. It has never cause a problem. Real world stuff here. Lots of it.

For whatever it might be worth, I agree with Gibby about the Rowland. There is not much need for that much power (and noise!) in a carry gun. I would not carry a .44 mag loaded to full power as a self defense gun, either, under most conditions.
The Rowland is for hunting. The shooting of .460 in my Springfield Mil Spec with the Clark kit does not seem to have bothered the pistol as yet, although one "cheap" holo sight was destroyed quickly. I do consider it a tribute to the 1911 that it appears to handle cartridges like the .460 and the 10mm that are far more "powerful" than it was actually designed for.

I am thinking about contacting Clark to set up the Delta with a comp. Delta elites are hard to find and are not cheap. It will increase the longevity of the gun because it lowers the pressure significantly at the barrel/slide disengagement. It will also give me a match quality barrel with more case support.

I am glad that it works for you. Lots of real world experience here as well. My preference is not going to be the same as others.

Gibby, I think that would be a good idea. I am "looking" at a Delta Elite now - although I've only seen pictures so far. I haven't seen many for sale in my general area, and this one is listed at $950.

Gibby,

I have shot a number of Rowlands both on Glocks and 1911's to me the amount of pressure which it develops I would rather go to a revolver if that sort of work is needed.

The 45 Super properly done as stated is more than a spring change it requires adjusting the lock time, no not as simple as dropping in a barrel/comp and spring but the ability to have the power when I want it rather than always having to shoot one specific round to me is ideal.

Now on abuse to gun, I can tell you the 460 has quite a bit more slide velocity hence why the 460 is only done with a comp,and a helluva alot more pressure. If you ever shoot this conversion on a glock you would wonder how you didn't just eat the slide!
The super is all I would want in the 1911 platform.

$950.00 is not bad if it in good shape. It's a Colt. They hold there value well. I know you are aware of the tricks to make the Delta run good and last. I love ours.

I see your point. Eliminate the low power 45 loads and balance out the spring for the Super. But you are still disengaging the slide at high pressures. Even with the other tricks. The slide velocity is higher on the Super than the 460.

My point is:
Barrel/slide disengagement at apprx. 45 +P pressures.
20# spring (low slide velocity)
Ejects 4-5 feet.
That is what a well design comp does. It would help on the Super also.

As far as using a Revolver. I have many. A whole Bunch of them. from 22lr to 500 S&W. Close to 60 Revolvers.
We are NOT talking about revolvers.

I am talking about a gun that is compact and weighs 39 oz. that can shoot 7 or 8 rounds equal to a .41 mag with the ability to reload another 7 rounds quickly. Hell, I can shoot the comped 460 faster than a 45 ACP. Be surrounded by a bunch of wild sows and piglets and you will know what I am talking about.

I guarantee I can get off a full mag of 460 ACCURATELY ,again ACCURATELY, before I can get off 3 in my 57's or 29's.

If you really have shot the 460, you would know what I am talking about. Simple as that.

Now. I do not load the 460 to the max. I load in the same range as Wilson combat does with their ammo. That is plenty for what I use the 460 for. It is not for every occasion. It is easier on the gun than a Super is.

The Super is a good round. The 460 and the comp system is better. That's why it was developed because of all the problems with the 45 Super in a 1911.

Changing lock time? I covered that.

The 460 slide velocity is higher then a 45 super it is a fact, Its why the setup can only be done with a comp and a 24 pound spring.

You mention you don't load the 460 to its max which in essence you are loading to 45 Super territory. Why would I want a comp if it can be eliminated?

My point is I believe the 460 is too much in a 1911, so I would prefer a properly timed 1911 which can shoot acp and supers interchangeably. There is no problem with the 45 Super guns if they are properly timed and fitted.

Did you damage your 1911 with the 45 supers?

As for better this is personal,I don't like comps on field carry guns it that simply, same reason I prefer short barrel revolvers

No I did not damage my 1911 with the Super. I did not have to. I figure it out real quick. When your running a 26# recoil spring and still kicking cases out to the next county even with using a square bottom firing pin stop and running a 25# main spring. It does not take much of that to figure out what it is doing to the gun.

The 1911 is good with .45 ACP and +P's.

With the design using a comp. The 460 is operating the action at around +P Pressures. (out of battery)

The Super is operating the action at well above the +P pressures.(out of battery)

I do not know how to explain it any other way.

A 1 1/2" comp does not get in my way at all working on the farm all day long. Doing a lot more activities than walking around.

I own a 460.
I own 33 1911's
I work with my guns on my hip on the farm. A lot.
I know what I need if I am ever surprised again by those hogs.

Real world stuff here. No Pretending.

Fact: The slide velocity is Higher on the Super than on a comped 460.

I'd really love to learn how he did that.

Unless you go to a ramped barrel, the case support will be the same.

I would never do a Super with only a heavier recoil spring. Clark is not far from me and that is how they do them. So I sent my 1911 to the west coast to have the lock time lengthened and I am only running an 18.5 pound recoil spring. I had BB send Super ammo to JRH to set the gun up around that power level. The longer lock time allows priessure to lower before unlocking thus reducing slide velocity.


More than one way to skin a cat.

Maybe so Comparing it to the Delta. Your probably right. The 460 barrel that came from Clark had a Little bit more support than the stock barrel out of the National Match I use it in. Not much, but a little.

How did they increase the lock time.

If anyone is being honest, the .45 Super, .460 Rowland, and 10mm are all more than the 1911 was designed for. And steady use with full power loads from any of them will wear out a 1911 much faster than a .45 ACP will. Comps do provide an unlocking delay due to forward pressure. And flat FP stops do provide a very little delay. But the major factor in unlocking of all recoil operated semi-auto pistols is the weight of the slide; and the 1911's slide is on the light side for those cartridges. That's why the first iteration for the Delta had a different slide, which Colt rejected because it didn't look like a 1911 anymore.

Yep, The 460 is not a range gun. Never said it was. Think self defense ON THE FARM.

It's been proven time and again that you can do a Super with a heavier recoil spring and really nothing else. But to do so, one has to understand, you'll wear the gun out much faster. I've seen Supers done with anything from a 22lb to 26lb recoil spring. The all seem to be safe, but not necessarily good for the gun. Anyone running anything over a 22lb recoil spring really ought to shorten up his firing pin and run a heavy firing pin spring. Or at least a titanium firing pin.

Kevin, I don't like the heavy springs. They slam forward excessively hard IMHO and they tend to knock the gun below my line of sight. Been there done that.

Definitely. The Wolf kits have the extra power FP springs so does Clark kits. I use titanium where I can. They do not work all the time.

Not advocating, just a statement of fact. I tend to agree with your statement.

Yep, The slide on the National Match is even lighter. That is another reason I do not load even near max for the 460. I load around 34K psi for my "Business Load". That is an educated guess. I use Longshot powder. Which is linear in its burn rate. I load less than halfway between max and min using Hodgdons Data. It performs very well. Bill Wilson does the same thing. The velocities are just above the Super Range. But I do it with less wear and tear on the gun because of the reasons I gave before.

Gibby,

No pretending here either, you have your opinions on the slide velocity,It pointless to go back and forth.

I didn't realize we were comparing resumes and gun inventories

Although you are basing your experiences on the Super with a firearm which was built for the ACP, a heavier spring does not fix the underlying problem with is lock time. You do not need a 26 pound spring [b]IF[/b] the gun was setup to shoot supers, as JWP's is with 18.5 lb. spring.

No resume' here. I was not bragging. I just threw that in. I love my 1911's.

Slide velocity. It has been proven. Even filmed. I already did the research. I do not need to do it again to prove a point. Do the research. Look at the Histories.

I am not trying to sell the 460. I use the 460 over the Super because of what I found out.

You shoot your Super using a 18.5lb, and I will shoot my 460 with a 20lb. Not much difference here. The comp has a purpose which makes it better for the gun and recovery time. That is the Difference.


We have talked about lock time being affected by more than just springs rates here.( SB FPS, 25# MS.)

I agree with this totally, that is why I went with JRH to increase the lock time this allow the pressure to drop before unlocking, thus allow an normal recoil spring weight to be used. If one wanted a compensator could be used on a Super. Personally I don't care for the compensator on a daily carry pistol as I like the balance of the 1911 as is.

I am sure a comp could be put on a Super rig. The comped barrel that comes from Clark is highly engineered. Since you live close to Clark's operation, you might go by and look at one. It has two molded chambers. Different volumes each. Large one close to barrel, smaller one close to muzzle. The smaller one also has vertical slots on each side. I am sure they could explained the design. All I know that it works well. I would think the Super could produce enough gases to make it work.

When I was first contemplating the Rowland, my thoughts were like yours. Do I want a comp sticking out? After the hog incident, I ordered a kit and 2000 Starline brass. If you shoot a 45 ACP you have everything else.
On the farm the comp has never bother me one bit.

Go on to Clark's website and click on the video link that has the girl shooting rapid fire. Remember the gun she is shooting is pouring out 41mag to 44mag energies. Her style of shooting is not like mine but it does show how effective the comp is.

Remember. For $295.00 plus shipping you can have two guns in one, one with a full match barrel. It takes minutes to change over. No others modifications are needed. I change out the FBFPS and MS, but you can leave those in when shooting the 45ACP.I know you can do that with the super, but we talked about that.

A lot of my 1911 Government size holsters have an open bottom. Those work fine. Only a little bit of the comp sticks out.

I am still curious how JRH increased the lock time on your gun.

I have seen the video. Best to call and speak directly to the source 530-268-6877. The will gldly answer your questions. Not everyone does the lock time increase.

Looks like this site is playing with you too. I am a slow typer, but it keeps leaving out letters and slow to respond. I do not think it is my computer. It's been going on for about 10 days now. I have heard others complain too.

You are correct. Should have been "gladly"

I don't know. It might be my computer. I was typing a word document and it was acting similarly.