From these compact and subcompact 9, 40 and 45 caliber pistols? I would expect that a 9mm Shield, or G43 should be capable of 4 inches at 10 yards with decent ammunition, anyone care to hazard a guess or a machine rest test statement

For a compact, an inch or two with any ammunition. Ten yards without a speed factor isn't much of a test. Four inches would get dumped.

Using a machine rest with a semi auto can be tricky, and depending on the procedure, I know a number of shooters that can outshoot a machine rest. Unless the pistol is resighted after each shot a machine rest includes a test of slide to frame fit, and if the pistol is resighted after each shot the test includes human error which can defeat the purpose of using a machine rest.

I fired a magazine offhand at 3-5-7-10-15-25 yards from my wife's Shield and they all stayed in a 4" circle. That's more accurate than my FS.

Small guns really show poor technique, but they're usually very accurate.

Significantly less than 4" at 10 yards.

The middle target is a 3" .45 RIA rested at 15 yards.

The bottom target is the same pistol standing off hand at 15 yards.



My Kahr CW-9 or my Springfield XDs .45acp will shoot easily as well.

I can't imagine a modern pistol that will shoot no better than 4" at 10 yards, or a shooter who'd post a photo of a 4" group at 10 yards as evidence of either the gun's accuracy or the shooter's ability.

So the inherent accuracy is pretty good then

First time out with the Shield, I was putting full mags of fast double taps into 4" @ 10 paces. The K9 has always been good for under 2" groups @ 15yds.

I used to shoot the little Beretta m21 a lot. I could bounce empty shot shells with it regularly at 10yds. Made a head shot on a small rattlesnake at about the same.

The PF9 hasn't been that accurate, but 4" at 10yds is still pretty easy. Then again, I've never shot it off a rest.

My 45 shield has been unusually accurate, with WW 230 grain ball I can hit 12 gauge shells at 10 yards. I was told that SW only specifies 4 inches at 10 yards by the factory..

Why does machine rest accuracy matter for a gun you carry ?

Odd question. If a gun will shoot 1 inch 10 shot groups at 25 yards from a machine rest, don't you think you might be able to shoot it better off hand than you would a gun that shot 10 inch groups at 25 yards. Assuming of course that every once and a while you had the sights aligned correctly when the firearm discharged.

I think you have something there . . . I have medium & large handguns that I shoot fairly well.
I also have a couple sub-compact pistols that I can't even find the target - at point-blank range!

kel tec pf-9 review

LMAO!

I only expect to be able to hit a man-size target at up to 10 yards. That is the defensive mind set...if you ae going for absolute target shooting accuracy....then that's
a different kettle of fish.

Yea I was shooting for some humor here - although some might actually believe it.

Totally missed the writing on the target at first. Sarge's comment made me go back and look. Ha! Hilarious.

Good review, and I concur. The PF9 has it's legitimate place.

Anything better than hitting an entire person at 10 yards is "absolute target shooting accuracy"?

If so, you need a serious reality check.

I'm for minute of Coke can, I like to be able to nail a pop can every time with a handgun, hard for me to think of shooting a man size target, I'm either aiming for an eyeball between the two eyes or a shirt pocket in the center of the chest.

Personally, 1.5" per 10 yards, standing is a good gun for me.

That translates to about easily hitting a 4" plate at 25 yards. If a gun can't hit my 4" at 25 yards in my hands, I don't feel confident in it for defense or hunting.

This is not a very high bar to reach for. It is a practical bar for guns in MY hands however. It could be that a gun is extremely precise and accurate at some wierd distance or set up but just not sorted out properly for a load and sights to achieve hits on a 4" plate at 25 yards. No matter. The end result is still a gun that is useless to me until it is sorted out. There is precision and accuracy and then there is plain ol' hitting simple stuff with no fuss at real distances where I can see.

I recall reading from somewhere but dont't recall exactly where (Skeeter?) that 1" per 10 yards is very good field accuracy for handgun.

I bet that not 1 in 1000 pistol owners in America can shoot 1.5" groups at 10 yards. For 1" groups make it 1 in 5000.

At least this much accuracy

You must hang around with a bunch of rooky shooters.

I guess I do. Because shooting a 1" circle at ten yards, five times in a row, is completely out of the question for the overwhelming majority of shooters I see.

It'd be easy enough to figure out. Post up a monthly shooting challenge. Five shots, standing, offhand, all shots have to land completely inside a 2" circle. Touch the edge and you lose. We can use the dot torture target that a lot of people already have. The guys who clean that can shoot the 1" circle. We'll see how many make it that far. Besides you.

one has to wonder if a good 1911 might be easier to shoot 1.5 inches for 5 shots at 10 yards over a Glock or other striker fired guns.

I'm sure it would.

If it didn't jam

I do not shoot compacts. Commander is the smallest. No striker fire either. I probably could not do it.

10 yards is not a long distance. 1" @ 25 yards (slow fire) and you have a competition.

Mine dam sure don't jam.

John, there is one in every crowd. No worry. They have not come full circle in the pistol world.

Does NRA have an official "Broad side of a barn" target?

I am DTF.



Dave

The target to the far right was fired off hand at 15 yards with a 3" compact .45 RIA

👍🏻

Despite being a Deputy Sheriff for 17 years who actually practiced, and have continued to practice for the last 17 years I believe I'm just a moderate marksman. I practice defensive shooting with handguns meant to be carried. Once my groups shrink I believe I'm shooting too slow and speed up. Once I start tightening up the groups I speed up again. If I can't keep all the rounds in a 4" circle at 10 yards I'm shooting too fast, or have allowed my technique to get sloppy, and need to slow down and pay attention to the basics.

I guess I must be one of the chosen ones...

I can still do that regularly. Back when I was young, and had youthful eyes, I could shoot them through the same ragged hole at that range.

I remember when the FBI sent a couple of guys to our department to "teach" us how to instruct and train our officers better....

Myself and the other ranger officer for the department took them out to the range and listened to them awhile, then when it was our turn to shoot, we taped bottle caps on the silhouette in the X ring, and took turns shooting the bottle cap out at 25 yards.

We were both pretty fair hands with a revolver.

It makes me warm all over when I see, or read, accounts of local police embarrassing the Famous But Incompetent.

10 yards isn't so hard.



I only used one hand...but I cheated. It was my right hand.

What .44Special did you shoot for the thread about compact and subcompact 9s, 40s, and 45s?

Perhaps their course of fire has changed, but the one I shot was nothing to sneeze at.




Dave

Anyway this is a G27 with 180 grain reloaded ammo and a SW shield 45 with 230 grain WW ball ammo at 12 yards stepped off. this is my first attempt to post images with the new image gallery. about the best I can shoot.

Good eye for detail.

Well, I posted a photo of a subcompact group above, using an RIA 3" .45acp... The .44 Special was just for fun, as it was with only one hand at the requisite 10 yards. Now, your turn. Don't cheat. Wiseasses normally cheat.

"Good eye for detail."

Oh I don't know. Not much difference between a 4.5 inch barrel and a 3.5 inch barrel, particularly when one is only using one hand. Your turn.

I never claimed to be able to shoot a 1" group at 10 yards with any of my pistols (and especially compact or subcompact guns like we're discussing here). I don't think I can. And I also doubt the ability of the general population to do the same. I would guess it's 1 / 5000 that can do that.

If you can that's swell. I never said you couldn't and I'm truly sorry that your insecurities made you feel that way. If you can do it just know that I think you're 1 in 5,000. Just super duper special.

But so far you haven't. So be a little more careful with your "your turn" talk.

A man should know his limitations. I commend you.

But I agree with you, that a significant minority or shooters even try to master the maximum their weapons are capable of. Most of the gun writers stopped trying in the 80s, preferring to use the term "Combat Accuracy" to describe mediocre shooting. The middle group on the green target was the same gun, but benched. The overall group size is not appreciably smaller, if it is at all. It may be, with careful tailoring of the loads, the gun could shoot into an inch, but It's just not that important in a sub compact.

My targets were in response to your suggestion that we post targets. If you didn't want them posted, why did you suggest it? You're an odd sort.

Post whatever pics you want. Please do, in fact.

I'd love to see more pics of your groups fired with a full size revolver in a thread about Shield and G43 size guns.

Can we please not fight on the 4th?



Dave

40 moa at 10 yards, give or take.

Yes, the .45 Subcompact group really sucked too. Of course the difference between us is, had you posted a nice group fired, I'd have said, "Nice shooting," instead of being...well instead of being you.

Still, I kinda liked the one hand standing part with the 4.5 inch revolver.

Your turn.

The conversation isn't about groups larger than 1" at 15 yards or 1" groups with a full size revolver.

It's akin to Jimmy asking "What kind of gas mileage does a Civic get?" And you answering "My F-250 pulls a boat!"....Then pouting hat everyone doesn't pat you on the back for your boat pulling. It's awesome and just really super duper, but irrelevant.

But I don't want you to be sad. So good job, DC. I think your group is swell.

And what exactly is your point with the "your turn" stuff? If you're referring to this thread I've already said I probably can't shoot a 1" group at 10 yards with a little gun. So what exactly is it my turn for? Contributing to the forum? If that's it I'd say I've contributed as much as anyone in regards to technique and development of ability.

can't we all just get along?

For me, to know if the gun is capable... just like I test my rifles, off a rest to find best ammo... THEN go to practice... two different things.

Lil guns.. my LCP 380 has taken a coral snake in the neck at about 25 feet, one deer in the head at about 15 steps, and an armadillo on the move at about 10 steps or so. Plenty good for me. Though the POS missed a fox at about 80-90 yards on the run...

I should give credit where credit is due. I can't think of another agency that is solely responsible for the creation of a brand new cartridge that has been well received by most departments and individual shooters. Why they created it is kinda funny.

Yes, you are a wonderful contributor. One might say, you're the ultimate authority.

Best to you.

You've gotta be wildly insecure to go this far when somebody doesn't tell you "nice shooting".

Keep stomping your feet, it's working, I'm giving you attention.

My plan for today was a NetFlix binge, but I had to test these waters.

Platform:

Shield .40 S&W



10yds. Warm ups:

Last two groups. Wish I had used brown paper because the white is a variable I'd rather not be introduced. Either way. No bullseye. Front sight only. Slow fire.







Fun drill regardless. No way can I do that 10 times out of 10. But it's always fun to see what you can do in slow fire.



Travis

You did well with that compact.

Nice shooting! Some of the small guns seem more accurate than the bigger ones.

That's waaaay more than plenty good

My 45 Shield is very accurate.....I can wear a 2 inch target out at 10 yrds.

My buddy had a LCP, think the first orange mark on the indoor range is 21 ft..
That little thing shot em under 2".
Popped a bit too.

So I bought one. Mine is also a good shooter, but hits lower. His was on the money.

My 1911 chews the X out at 50 ft. Hate the 3 dot sights, needs cut for a Bomar. Colt Commander.

Had a S&W M60 no dash. Staging the trigger...........I'd get one in the bulle, next one close, the next out a ways and the next back to close.
I was all over, never really consistent.
Got PO'd and just emptied the cylinder w firm grip, stroking the trigger, no staging.....................just a "take that you mofo target!" kinda ammo dump.

Nice group, all in the black.

The lightbulb came on.

Right or wrong, that technique worked for me on that little gun.

Now I want a 340PD!

Machine rests............have seen folks not use them correctly.
IMHO you need the rest, the windage base, bolted to sturdy bench and make everything repeatable, not just crank one in the inserts and let er rip.
Dunno what inserts available these days.

Pops has a Ransom and quite a few goodies. We got scary groups from some 1911's he did and the old E series Python.

Integral grip polymer guns...............dunno how you'd fit one of those to a rest.

Thanks.

I am pretty amazed at how well these Shields shoot. They really are a great compromise for every day carry.

I won't be surprised if my .40 has a short service life though. Seems like a lot of cartridge in that gun.




Travis

Dayum! Front sight only?

IMHO if a handgun can't keep all shots on a silhouette at 50 yds it has accuracy issues, and I consider that a fairly loose standard as accurate handguns will group 2" at 50 yds, exceptional ones 1" at 50 yds and I'm talking revolvers not specialty single shots.

For groups at 10 paces, I'd be concerned if the gun couldn't group tighter than 2", and would prefer a group closer to 1".

Nice groups..

I continue to suck with the used/new G27 this is at measured 10 yards. The gun is capable but the shooter is not. This is with some hornady 180 XTP factory ammo to make sure the thing worked with them.