Specifically 124 and 147s

Seen some recent exorbitant price hikes in some flavors.......

Federal HST in either weight. I wouldn't hesitate to use Speer Gold Dot either.

I like a Gold Dot 124 gr or Golden Saber 124gr-preferrably in the +P variety. Haven't tried a Federal HST, but wouldn't hesitate to use them if that's what was available.
Guns I run them in are as follows:
Glock 19
CZ P-07 and P-09

Speer GDHP 124 +P, or WInchester Ranger Talon (RA9124TP). I've got some RA9TA 147 gr but don't carry it much. Both 124 gr loads perform well in full size 9mm's, but the RA9124TP is more accurate in the smaller pistols at my house (Kahr PM9, S&W Shield, G26).

Federal HST

Yep. Those are the only two I carry, too. Whichever is available when I'm in the market for carry ammo, in either 124 or 147, plus P or standard. Doesn't much matter.

Wouldn't have a problem with Winchester Ranger in either weight, plus p or not, either.

Federal HST staggered with ball of the same weight.
Backup mags are all ball

Speer 124 grain standard pressure Gold Dots.

What is your reasoning for this?

I'm thinking that the ball is for maximum penetration. In the old days, before bonded JHP was perfected, this was a fairly common practice.

for years i had winchester ranger +p+ 127 grain SXT RA9TA, at the time recommended to me by a FBI guy.
I tried to find some more of it recently, couldn't, until you had a law enforcement connection. Then i saw some ammo testing where the stuff was NOT opening up. SO... I bought hornady's critical duty +p 135 grain flexlock,
what is interesting to me, the army's new rounds the m1181 and m1182 , or it might be m1182 and m1183 are interesting to me.
per an article, the 1181 is a 115 gr thc flat nose bullet that velocity and appearance wise looks a lot like winchester white box.
I ran into issues with gold dots not opening years ago, and somewhat always distrusted 9mm. EXcept, they will penetrate. and i got to thinking, that maybe penetration is more important and a 9mm is perfectly capable of shooting through someone.
I bought a case of that winchester 115 grain thc stuff at about 9bucks a box, marked service grade whatever that means. Looks just like the military stuff.
the 147grain jhp m1182 or m1183 without looking, looks like the politically correct ranger 147 grain which is the old black talon, without the bad color.
i watched a youtube video or so the other day on the m17-p320. guy fired 1000rounds in about 13 minutes. And i watched another guy dump a 21round mag rapid fire. like watching a machine gun go off.
i think one sometimes can overcomplicate an issue.

highly recomment going to www.ammotogo.com
they tested over 30 different types of ammuntion giving velocity, barrier penetration, and the size of the opened bullets, and penetration.
you might be surprised how some of that 25dollar for 20 rounds stuff actually didn't perform.

Speer GDHP 124 +P. Unless I’m at the Ranch, then I have a spare mag of the Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman Load with the cast bullets. Might need to shoot a pig or two. 🤠

MOGC,
Hp may not penetrate well in some cases , penetration matters

Either one

Straight FMJ...for decades.

Fighting Pistoles don't generate enough velocity,to deviate the constant. Placement dictates the outcome,not the receipt from Gucci.

Hint................

The military flat point Fiji is loaded to 39,700 psi per the article I read

Some folks don't gotta "read".

Hint..............

When I pocket Wifes P365 it's stuffed with 125gr Barnes' at 1050 fps with Longshot, when she carries, it's loaded with the 115gr XTP's at the same speed.

Ron, have you ever carried those around in a mag in your pocket for a while? Guess what color they are under that pretty copper color, as well as the SXTs? Name ends in Talon. Lol.

Wife’s Sig 938, Gold Dot ....147’s. Considering going to Buffalo Bore! memtb

That's what I carry, 124 FMJ

9mm 124 gold dot or fed HST
45 cal 230 same
40 cal 165 HST
38 cal 135 gold dot

124 GDHP +P

i have some old black talon for 45acp in my display case.
i became enambered years ago when speer had the 200grain flying trash can or ash tray, what ever it was. I found a few years ago ten boxes of them bullets, and bought them all. i loaded them with a healthy dose of power pistol. impressed the snot out of me shooting water jugs. then i read they really weren't all that good. Still don't believe that.

i read the same article, americanrifleman, page 65, may issue. it was showing that pressure, but is was also showing velocity at 1326fps. there are any number of commercial fmj loads available inexpensive at around 1200fps plus/minus. this stuff is around 1190, similar bullet and not expensive: https://www.ammunitiontogo.com/prod...-winchester-service-grade-115gr-fmj-ammo
they are bumping velocity 100fps, but i don't see that as all that much.

i bought some of that hornady critical duty, based upon the testing results at ammunitiontogo.com. I liked the idea of that polymer tip sealing the hollow point for entry purposes.
I have swung over to the 9mm camp based upon firepower capacity, but my heart still belongs i think to the .45acp. my personal carry most of the time is an original baby glock in 357sig, which i have aftermarket barrels for that and .40s&w, and 9mm. mostly, being an old fahrt, i have a 165grain silvertip loaded in .40 to 1200fps. I just bought a sig m17-p320 for a lot or reasons. but i have a glock 20 and 21, plus a springfield xd and it holds about 14 .45acp's. just a little to big to carry all the time. the baby glock accepts the high cap mags so i have the firepower in a small package.
A friend of mine who is a now retired sheriff's deputy, was firearms instructor and range officer for the department, was having lunch with me one day and he was packing a 9mm glock. having know him since childhood and knowing he had a colt delta 10mm in the glove compartment of the patrol car, and a .375H&H in the trunk, i asked him about the pistol and the caliber. He kind of wrinkled his nose and said the glock was a perfectly aedequate bullet dispenser, and the round only took two or three to do what one should do.
I found that really funny and never forgot it.
the .375 by the way was for certain areas in the valley where houses were made out of railroad ties. People thought bullets couldn't penetrate.
well, a 300grain fmj out of a .375H&H will.

Underwood loads their +P+ to 40,000 psi therefore the 320 is +P+ capable

I have had failures to feed and jams with the Gold Dot and Critical Defense, my 115gr FMJ and my XTP's handloads do not in my Sig P320 do not. That is what I carry

Neither do I.

A friend on the board here has friends who worked for Winchester. The joke is SXT stands for "Same eXact Thing".

124 HST

When outdoors I carry FMJ 115 nato ball for critters

you will get a lot of arguments on the +p and the +p+. as to they really give y ou anything. I have seen the ranger t 127 in +p+ where they didn't open up. I personally have fired gold dots into 2x4 where they plugged up.
and i am probably off on this, but it seem like 115grfmj 9mm will penetrate something like 30inches or in that area. You might not get a open hollow point, but you sure get penetration. I would think in that famous miami shootout where the fbi criticized unfairly the bullet, in fmj in would have continued another couple of inches into the heart.
as to the quote in american riflemen, the military is loading up to about +p on the full metal jacket 115grain.
i don't know if that extra 100fps or so brings very much.
as to the specs, consider the following:
SAAMI specifications for common +P cartridges are as follows:

Cartridge Standard pressure +P pressure Notes
9 mm Luger 35,000 38,500 10% increase
.38 Special 17,000 18,500 9% increase
.45 ACP 21,000 23,000 9.5% increase
.38 Auto 26,500 36,500 38% increase to make .38 Super
.257 Roberts 54,000 58,000 7.5% increase
The +P+ designation is not currently used by the SAAMI, but is used by some manufacturers to designate loads that exceed the +P SAAMI specification. One source lists the 9 × 19 mm +P+ loading as having a pressure of 42,000 psi, an 18% increase over the standard pressure of 35,000 psi, and the .38 Special +P+ as 22,000, a 29% increase over the standard pressure.[5]

personally, i don't think i want to beat a gun to death getting into those higher pressures for what i see as little atvantage. The military can put them u p there, but they have a bigger budget than i do.

Don't carry a 9mm very often but on my next order to Underwood will be getting some of the 90 grain Xtreme Defender. Am carrying the same bullet right now in .38 Super which clocks 1560 from a 4.25" Commander....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClJcJ8LQFbQ&t=610s


...I like velocity...lots of it....

Bob

i am not against velocity, but looking at some of those wonder bullets, they ain't working sometimes quite as advertised.
and ultimately at heart i am at the other side of the argument about big fat bullets at moderate velocity.
which is outside the 9mm discussion i think.
i did watch the video, had seen it before, and actually have some of the underwood ammo with i think that phillips head bullet.
i believe he did say not much difference between the +p+ and the +p, if i got that right.
also interesting in the tavor at much higher velocity it only brought you another couple of inches.
but, these are solid bullets, not jhp's. and you are still getting a lot of performance. I think i have seen some of this where the fmj flat pt bullets the army is going to will exceed this in penetration. could be wrong tho.
but in any case, these were at the upper end of the fbi 18inch penetration rewquirement maximum.

You'll find the +P+ 9mm Underwood load is almost identical to your 38 Super load, at 1550 fps from a Glock 19. That's what I carry; being a solid it's an entirely different thing than traditional JHP bullet weights. I like this load because penetration in soft targets seems to be on par with the best 124-147gr JHP loads, and far better in hard barriers, but also the gun shoots flatter (less flip) with the light bullet weight for faster follow ups accurately.

Contrary to what traditional JHP loads do, the higher velocity +P+ loads with this 90gr solid Lehigh bullet penetrate a little further and seem to be a little more effective in all my testing. The trade off is more bang and flip as expected, but it does not sacrifice penetration like a hollow point does at higher speed.

Hey, I'd be willing to mail you the money for a box of Lehigh 9mm Xtreme Penetrators if you wouldn't mind lobbing some of them at a varmint pig and getting back to me with the results. It certainly would be cheaper than me driving somewhere to shoot a pig! I got 1152 fps out of my Sig P365, 1212 out of a Glock 19.

147 gr. XTP @ 1000FPS

rjm
was digging around in the ammo area, how bout this:

underwood 10mm, 220 gr hi tek coaed hard cast, 1200fps.

underwood 10mm, 140gr xtreme penetrator, 1500fps.
and then i found some of my hand cast 41magnum

using that slovenien mould for dimple, solid, pentad hollowpoint and regular hollowpoint
hp cast to 247grain, dimple to 254grain, solid to 262grain, 9grains of unique
i think that in the 41magnum would make an owie too.

I like 124 +p Gold Dots just fine.

In my experience the 124 and 147 grain +P+ Underwood Gold Dot’s give up a bit of penetration to the +P but expansion is greater as is wound channel.

I carry 9mm in my 9mm.

Carrying the Underwood 10mm 140 XP in the G40 6"....running 1602....

200 grain Montana Bullet Works 200 gr. HC with 8.6 gr. of Longshot...1260 from the 6" PARA Hunter...

Have the 165 MeHic HP for the .41 Magnum....14.0 grains of Blue Dot is running 1380 from the 4" 657 Mountain Gun... The 180 solid will run right through body armor...

i've got tha mihec 180grain mould for the 41, but have not pushed the velocity side of it. Was sticking it in 41special.
i was looking at underwood's site on the 9mm version of the xtreme penetrator last night, i think i might buy a few boxes of that. I think
the 90grain bullet was doing 1500fps or so.
i am becoming more and more convinced a solid bullet is the way to go rather than a hollowpoint.

I recently bought 124 gr +P Golden Sabers. They were only $14.25 per 50 and the testing I reviewed indicated that they penetrated and expanded well.

My likely location for needing my gun is in the parking lot at the courthouse when there are a lot of people present. I have read materials and seen videos that indicate 9mm FMJ has sufficient energy to go through two people. I don't want that. So, I'll take the expanding bullet that (1) will hopefully not injure a bystander, and (2) expands to cause greater damage to the guy intent on killing me.

^^^^^^These are my choice in a S&W M&P and a Shield. Hard to beat these for SD rounds!^^^^^^^

I wouldn't hesitate to use the +P version either.

Elk Country

That's a really good place to start.

Sig P365. I use the Sig V Crown 115 grain for short barrels.
In my P320-M17 I've just been range shooting Sig 124 grain NATO +P ball or the Winchester 124 grain NATO +P ball.

Hornady Critical Duty 135 grain +P.

124 gold dot +p or nato spec 124 FMJs. I shoot a lot of the 124 FMJs that are rated around 1180 for cheap practice. Usually switch to the gold dots for carrying. I may pick up some hst's or rangers too.

Bb

Underwood 124 gr gold dot, plus P plus, 1300 FPS.

YE-OUCHH! that hurts just reading it.

Hopefully 9mm!

I've never tried the 124gr Underwood, but I used to run their 115gr GD +p+ out of my Glock 19. Recoil more like a 40 SW and muzzle blast like a .357 SIG! Great ammo, but I thought it was a little too much of a good thing.
JMO.

talking about too much of a good thing. how about 1550fps?
https://www.underwoodammo.com/colle...n-xtreme-defender?variant=18785693466681

I've not tried any of the "Xtreme" sort of bullets, but I guess some folks really like 'em?
They sure haul the mail, especially when loaded by Underwood. But then, when has Underwood ever sold slow ammo??

Speer 124gr +P Gold Dots, Short Gold Dots and Hornady 124gr +P American Gunner (XTP).

Just ordered three boxes yesterday along with one box of standard pressure for a 9mm LCR....

For my carry guns, I stick to traditional bullet designs. The best of them, but still nothing out of the main stream.

I'm not sure why you'd think "too much of a good thing" - those are not expanding hollow points that would sacrifice penetration for speed. As a solid, the higher velocity penetrates better and recoil is still very manageable.

that was meant as a joke as much as anything. I was sitting there looking at some 10mm, and 41magnum underwood ammo on the desk.
i have come close probably two or three times now to buying two or three boxes of the stuff rjm just bought.
I was also thinking of some of their 357mag ammo too.
in 9mm i am more into the mindset lately of wanting penetration rather than expansion.

quite a few years ago i bought a case of silver bear i think 115 or 124 grain jhp, stashed it and haven't looked at it since.
i think the jacket had steel in it, and they stopped importation.
sooner of later i am going to shoot a box of that into something and see what it does.

I've been carrying this stuff for several years now and have shot and tested a bunch of it. (I mostly buy the bullets and load my own.) Good penetration is one of the things I really like about them. They don't expand, but they do give some of the effect of an expanding bullet; the wound channels aren't the same but they are effective.

65BR,

I shoot nothing for self-defense in my Sig-Sauer P225/P6 except 115 Grain HORNADY CRITICAL DEFENSE JHP, as I've found nothing that shoots as well in my P225/P6.
(I've probably tried at least 2 dozen other sorts of 9x19mm factory ammo & none of them are superior to what I'm using, in this particular handgun.)

Otoh, I once had a 9mm Colt's Government Model that shot nothing as well as high-velocity 147 grain JHP. = My GUESS is that virtually every handgun has a "favorite" load, IF the owner had time & money to test the many available loads. - MOST shooters find "an acceptable load" that shoots "decently" & thereafter sticks with that load.
(The only reason that I found "an optimal load" for my EDC handgun is that I once was "a range rat" at a regional police academy & many students left behind many small numbers of many different sorts of factory 9mm ammo, which we staff-members were allowed to expend on the range for practice.)

yours, tex

Just regular old 115 gr ball ammo.

where are you able to buy the bullets by themselves. I must have overlooked that somehow.
oops, see midway cary's them. have you found loading spec's?
oops again, found it should let my fingers do the walking first.
i didn't know they were making that many bullets with loading instructions:
https://www.lehighdefense.com/lehigh-defense-load-data-library

To all-


Bullets are designed to work within an operational velocity range. Pushing a Speer Gold Dot/HST/Ranger faster DOES NOT increase its tissue wounding ability. Quite the opposite generally.


Pistols kill by destroying tissue. Being that impact velocity is below 2,000’iah FPS there is no, to extremely minor damage caused by the temporary cavity. All of the damage is from the permanent crush cavity- i.e.- what the bullet physically touches. There is a reason that organizations who’s job it is to actually use pistols to kill humans all use hollow point/plugged ammunition that meets FBI spec. The Xtreme penetrators, etc. look neat on paper, in actual tissue they cause about as much damage as FMJ’s. That is to say poor compared to modern, robust, expanding HP’s.

Really...then I guess the last two guys I saw shot with a .22 that were non-CNS hits and dropped within a couple of seconds of their being hit died of...fright?

Right.

And all the targets splattered by light weight 357 magnum slugs over the years were hallucinations.

The plural of anecdotes is not data.

What are you two talking about?

Not everyone believes the hole punch theory of handgun ballistics.

RJM thinks the .22LR is a better man stopper than a 9mm with modern hollow points.

Of course his calling you out for you "inexperience" doesn't exactly add to his credibility.

well
that underwood with the lehigh bullet seemed like it outperformed in penetration through various mediums and good peformance after penttrating. I am gonna buy some of the bullets, lehigh, and load them myself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0piGeTVMZWs

Wrong again about the Lehigh stuff and a lot of other bullets, as can be seen by shooting actual meat, but we've been over this before.

Yeah, I get them from either Lehigh or Midway.
For a +P+ load I worked up with Silhouette to a bit higher than the Lehigh data, and stopped about 25 fps shy of Underwood's +P+ load. That's been a good accurate load that is safe and reliable in my Glocks. Use at your own risk in your guns of course.

What 9mm ammo do you recommend?

It’s not a theory. It’s literally the only damage observed in tissue with service handguns.







I’ve seen what a Lehigh does in tissue. Have you?

What actual meat? You mean the largest database of results from actual shooting in humans, the largest, most researched and peer reviewed terminal ballistics findings from the largest, most well funded, and resourced terminal ballistics facilities?

Or are we talking deer? Of which I have killed hundreds of, and dozens with 380, 9mm, 40 S&W, 357 Sig and Mag, 45 auto, 44 mag, and 454 Casull using FMJ, hardcast, and modern HP’s?

No, there is no magic to Lehighs. The wounds created are nearly indistinguishable from flat nosed FMJ’s.

To caveat- I really don’t care as long as the consistent penetrate 12+ inches straight line. All service caliber pistols suck unless you hit CNS. Therefore I, and those I work with default to CNS for everything.


Having said that- any rounds that meet FBI spec across the board. Speer 147gr Golddot, Speer Gold Dot G2 147gr, 147gr HST, Hornady Critical Duty 135gr+p, Barnes 115gr XPD +p, etc. They’re all good.

Thanks

That's not at all what he was saying.

Speaking of anecdotes..

[quote=antelope_sniper RJM thinks the .22LR is a better man stopper than a 9mm with modern hollow points.

Of course his calling you out for you "inexperience" doesn't exactly add to his credibility. [/quote]

I don't ever recall advocating for a .22 over a 9mm except when that is all the person can handle...

He made the statement that flies in the face of reality.... Every person shot is different, every shooting is different, different bullets at different velocities act differently....

Also LE isn't in the business of "killing people" they are in the business of "immediate behavior modification" when it come to people/animals that are trying to kill them and/or others and as one of my instructors one said, "the gun is the ultimate behavior modification tool". Unfortunately death is often the result of behavior modification.

I spent 30 years in LE, 15 in Dallas where there were 80+- LE shootings just by DPD Officers a year, plus many more in the D-FW Metroplex plus felons shooting people. If you ask questions you find out what works on the street vs. what looks cool in the lab....

...and your credentials sir.....

Bob

I didn't know anyone trained to shoot em in the leg...

https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4337-Service-Caliber-Handgun-Duty-and-Self-Defense-Ammo
https://www.lightfighter.net/topic/basic-wound-ballistic-terminal-performance-facts

We can argue all day or we can look at the studies done and make our own decisions based on facts.

I don't ever recall advocating for a .22 over a 9mm except when that is all the person can handle...

He made the statement that flies in the face of reality.... Every person shot is different, every shooting is different, different bullets at different velocities act differently....

Also LE isn't in the business of "killing people" they are in the business of "immediate behavior modification" when it come to people/animals that are trying to kill them and/or others and as one of my instructors one said, "the gun is the ultimate behavior modification tool". Unfortunately death is often the result of behavior modification.

I spent 30 years in LE, 15 in Dallas where there were 80+- LE shootings just by DPD Officers a year, plus many more in the D-FW Metroplex plus felons shooting people. If you ask questions you find out what works on the street vs. what looks cool in the lab....

...and your credentials sir.....

Bob
[/quote]

I don't recall making any knowledge claims based upon personal experience in this thread. I do seem to recall you touting the benefits of a .22lr over larger calibers in a former thread, along with your general know it all cop attitude.

Usually 124 grain Golden Sabres.

"I don't recall making any knowledge claims based upon personal experience in this thread. I do seem to recall you touting the benefits of a .22lr over larger calibers in a former thread, along with your general know it all cop attitude."

Any time you can find that statement please post it.... I never carry a .22 except occasionally walking around my neighborhood where a larger caliber might ricochet into a house off the pavement and only advocate carrying a .22 when one can handle nothing bigger....

...and my "attitude" is based on experience and observation, not InterNet BS....

What does “traditional” bullet designs mean to you?

That looks dangerously close to the 22's RJM was talking about when the last 2 guys he saw drop from non CNS hits, might be a good bullet...

we seem to be having fun with the .22lr. back a long time ago the only real handgun i had for the house was a ruger mark I.
i always figured a full mag of that in somebody's face probably would make them leave.

I have in my collection a little hi standard, only made for a couple of years in WWII. Had a ring around the barrel where a silencer at one time sat. They were used by O.S.S. and others. No problem sticking it in somebodies ear and pulling the trigger. I think the israeli's have some experience with this too. they can be nasty when they roll around in somebodies chest cavity.

LOL, me either, pelvic region, hip sockets might be another story, thinking a bg would fold up pretty quick, had that in mind when I was talking about Dirtfarmers little 380 awhile ago.

No Leighheighs, Underwoods or other "trick" or "gimmick" designs.

In other words, I have a preference for modern jacketed hollow points in typical for caliber bullets weights designed and tested by credible manufacturers.

Lehigh Defense makes no "trick" or "gimmick" projectiles. They do make bullets for knowledgeable shooters and handloaders. Underwood uses them.

While I prefer HSTs and Gold Dots for carry, their Extreme Penetrators have found a place in my 45-70 Bear Defense rounds to keep my cast heavies...woke.

SJ,

There seems to be some debate regarding Lehighs as a defensive projectile in the 9mm, so until we have more real work data, I'll stick to rounds resembling those you mentioned for carry purposes.

If we are discussing Lehighs for hunting, such as in your 45-70, or in a subsonic .300 Blackout for killing pigs, well, that's a different discussion. Some of their hunting bullets look pretty interesting.

antelope sniper...well armed with kind words.

Thank you SJ.

Underwood doesn't make bullets - they sell ammo loaded with other companies bullets, like Gold Dots for example. They are a good source for high quality ammo that performs as advertised, unlike some of the others that don't meet their velocity claims.

Pretty easy to start getting carried away with emotion on the keyboard trying to get a point across. Go back & read what RJM is telling you, he doesn't brag but he's giving a lot of good advice every time he speaks so take the time to listen. With just about any gun, caliber or bullet he can offer sage advice to all of us, that's a fact. Don't even get me started on what he can do with a six gun at long range.

Dick

I'm packing the new 69 grain depleted uranium frangible hollow point penetrators at 1500 fps from UnderLehigh. I've been hanging out in the sleasiest part of town but I haven't been able to shoot anyone yet so I can't comment on their effectiveness.
Maybe I'll get me some meat to shoot or some of that ballistic jello stuff if I can't find somebody that needs shooting.
I'll be sure and report back.

tag

I started off with Fiocchi 9mm 124 grainers as a model. They use Hornady XTP's. These shot well in all my 9mms. I chronographed them, and then duplicated the load using Hodgon Universal powder. I also ran off 500 rounds of the same load topped with Lee 358-125-RF's to use as practice ammo. When I'm around the farm, I carry the cast lead. You just never know when a stump (or coyote) is going to need killing. When I'm out and about in the truck, I switch to the XTP's.

I have a similar thing going with my Ruger LCR. Again, I started with a Fiocchi load in 357 Magnum. However, the full-house 357 Mag was rather unpleasant. I knocked it down a little and used Universal for a powder. I ended up with a load that is considerably stiffer than a 38 Special, but not punishing to shoot. I knocked it down for KYHillChick's load a bit more. She carries a SP-101. Again-- XTP's for normal carry, and Lee 358-125-RF's for practice.

If velocity increase in revolver do it increase damage, then why is the 357 mag more effective than the 38 Special?

There's nothing trick or gimmick about Lehighs or Underwoods. Some smart people spent a lot of time and money on research to prove their idea. And, there are 100 youtube videos to prove it, too.

I know. You don't watch youtube. It's fake. Right?

Someone asked me once about my Faith, and I responded that I didn't need a God that was Omnipotent and Omnipresent. I could put up with a mediocre God. He could be right most of the time, and powerful under most circumstances and as long as He didn't mean me harm, I'd follow his commandments. That's kind of how I feel about CC guns and their effects on human beings.

Do I need the best penetrating, deadliest round? One shot kills? Dead right there? No. If I get motivated to shoot someone, it is because they are doing or about to do something really, really bad. All I want them to do is stop doing it. Death? It's an unfortunate side-effect, but it's sometimes for the best. When I shoot someone, all I care about making them worry about someone else besides me and mine. If he falls over dead? Fine. If he grabs himself and runs off? Fine--maybe even better. If he just falls down on the ground? That's cool. If I want ground meat, I'll stop by Krogers on the way home. That's not why I pulled the pistol in the first place.

That's not to say I'm a big fan of mouse guns. I stick with proper known effective chamberings-- 357 Mag, 9mm, 45 ACP. I use expanding bullets. I aim for the center of mass. Whatever happens, that first round is probably going to be the number one thing on the mind of receiver for the rest of the day-- possibly the rest of his life. If not, he gets another one and the process repeats until he is fully convinced of my sincerity.

I really didn't think hard about this for a long time. I didn't feel the need to carry concealed. I did have one need, and that was that when I drove down to deer camp on Friday nights, I really never knew who or what was inside camp until I'd gotten in and put on the lights. Just to be sure, I started carrying a P1-P38 with military ball ammo. Did I think this was the best self-defense gun? No, It was just what I had at the time, but I figured it would get me by. Perfect or not, I've been opening that door for 19 years and the Good Lord has protected me so far.