The thread about the 250 Savage got me thinking about an article that I read years ago. I think the article was entitled "The Spiteful Crack of the 250-3000" or something like that. I am thinking it was written by Jim Bashline or maybe Bob Milek. Does anyone have a copy?

I sure would like to read it too! I had quite the relationship with one in 788 when I was teaching up in Ambler.

It was Jim Bashline. I too loved that article. He talked about his lifelong fascination with the cartridge ever since a well to do "flatlander" gave him a cartridge as a boy as he helped out at a local hotel where the out of town hunters stayed during deer season. I'm sure I still have it in my mountain of magazines but it'd take a week to find it. There are no writers left that can/will write an article like that today....

After a quick Google search:

"The Spiteful Crack of the .250-3000", Jim Bashline, Deer and Big Game Rifles, 1997, pages 66-71.

That too is one of my favorites by Jim Bashline. I asked Jim around 30 years ago if he still had that empty cartridge case that the "sport" gave him. He smiled and said "yep." (He was a sometimes drinking buddy when we found ourselves attending the same fly tying symposiums, me as an organizer and he as a participant. There was the night he, Ernie Schwiebert, and I put a serious dent in the single malt supply at Seven Springs resort in Pennsylvania. Jeezuz, the stories those guys could tell. It was just the three of us left at the bar when the bartender pleaded with us to leave so he could go home. A couple Atlantic Salmon flies that Jim tied me reside in bell jars, treasured mementos of a great guy.)

I think that it was Bob Milek. He wrote an article about .25 caliber cartridges in a soft cover special that I recall owning back in the 90's, but don't know what happened to it. He did a nice write up on the 257 Roberts too, some old cowboy shooting mulie bucks from the rim of a canyon IIRC.

Talk about funny

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/2460270/2

gnoahhh,

I also knew Jim pretty well--and consumed quite a bit of whiskey/whisky with him.

Did he ever tell you the tale about how he traded the family car (the ONLY family car) for several old Winchester lever-rifles, and had to wire Sylvia for bus-fare money to get home? (Years later those rifles paid for one of their kid's college education.)

Another well-written description of the 250 Savage and its effects on game was done by Lawrence Koller in his famous 1948 book on deer hunting “Shots at Whitetails.” A great read.

Haha! Yes, he told me the story after I described to him how I had sold a bunch of good rifles to pull together the down payment on a bungalow + 36 acres in Pennsylvania. It made me feel better (but it could've been the whisky too).

Huh uh. Definitely Jim Bashline.

All those old articles by the "scribes of yore" sent me down the rabbit hole of medium-sized .25 and 6.5 cartridges for deer hunting. I love cast bullets, and therein lies my affection for .30's and .32's, but mildly sizzling .25's and 6.5's caught my fancy for woods loafing long ago and I never looked back. I can't imagine a friendlier companion than a Savage M1899 .250-3000 takedown for such a day, when the woods are quiet, the deer are pussy footing, and I'm in the mood for connecting with the past and reflecting on the guys who influenced me.

Note to self: take a copy of Bashline's book that contains "Spiteful Crack" to the woods with me this fall, and balance it on the .250 Savage across my lap to read between naps.

My apologies for taking the thread farther into the weeds, but I told Jim a story that held him spellbound once too. It involved me standing on a rock after dark at the head of a pool in Spring Creek in north central PA on a night so dark I couldn't see my hand in front of my face. (The same pool out of which Joe Humphries had taken the then state record brown trout.) After playing out the fly line, practiced and memorized previously in daylight, something big and frightening took my Muddler Minnow fly and went tearing away in the darkness. I gave the fish its head while the reel screamed, and then "bink", the line went slack. Trembling, I staggered to shore, walked to the cabin, and cracked a cold beer. My favorite trout story, and it involved a fish I never saw or touched let alone landed. Jim sat there with his glass raised halfway to his mouth and just kept nodding.

Having been a 250-3000 shooter since 1969, via a Savage 99G that was purchased at The Green Store in North Haverhill, NH, I'm rather partial to both the cartridge and most of the rifles that have been chambered for it. Since then, many more have come from FN, Remington, Ruger, Savage, and Winchester. My favorite is a Savage 1920 that once belonged to Larry Koller. Whenever I take it down from the wall and handle it, I wonder how often Larry used it and if it was one of the rifles that he wrote about in SAW. According to my conversations with the late Paul Koller, Larry had over 1,000 firearms in his collection when he passed away, including several Savage 1920s that came and went. This one was modified post-WW2 to accomodate a Lyman Alaskan.

I have only one book by Mr. Bashline, The Eastern Trail, but honestly don't remember anything about it.

EDIT: What is the title of the book that this Bashline article appears in?

Do you ever read anything others have posted?

I don't read everything that everyone posts, why?

Great stories guys! Keep it going. Dang, wish I had the talent to spin a good yarn like these.

After reading an article Layne Simpson wrote once about the 1920 in 250-3000 I started looking for one. It took years but I found one for reasonable price. Got dies and brass. The safety had no tension seemed like missing a spring, then I noticed that the action and stock had 2 different serial numbers. Long story short was that it shot ok but very low at 50 yds, the irons appeared to be the originals and I didn't want to be modifying them so I sold it to a dealer for more than I had in it. I'd still like to have a 250 but one with a tighter twist than 1 in 14. Mb

Near to our hunting camp in East Central Saskatchewan an old timer lived and hunted in the 1950-1970's era. He was a moose hunting specialist, and his family and friends "party" hunted. Pushing bush for moose. This was strictly meat hunting, either sex, shoot them "on the run" type of hunting. The only rifle that man used was a .250 Savage 99. He was a good shot, and so was usually designated shooter whether or not the moose was to be "his". The meat was all shared by the hunting party anyway. He shot more than 50 moose with that little rifle, using only 100 gr. factory loads. Never lost a moose that I know of, but he usually kept shooting until the moose dropped, and they always hunted when there was tracking snow. I bought mine after hearing that story from his grandson, who coveted that rifle. The .250 is quite a capable cartridge. I only ever used mine for deer, but it obviously works for them too.

I have the article, "The Spiteful Crack of the 250-3000" in a document but don't know how to post it here (boomer,sorry). I could email it to someone that would be willing/able to posted it if anyone wants to do it.
Send me a pm with your email and I will send it to you.
jay

Because it would answer your questions in this thread and would also make you look less like an idiot, maybe.

Thanks to jay and pacecars for posting the article.

Is the Savage rifle in the picture a 99F?

I ordered the book "The Eastern Trail"

Where was Layne Simpson's article published? I would like to read it.

Holy smokes Pacecars. Thank you for posting that article. I enjoyed the heck out of it.


Off to Gunbroker to find a 250 Savage!

Thanks pacecars for posting that article - can’t believe I never saw that one….great article!!

I was introduced to the .250-3000 on my older brother’s farm in the early 1970s I wasn’t yet 10 years old but was fascinated by guns and anything to do with them. I found a cartridge on the window sill in an out building that I was not familiar with - it was shorter than the .270s and .30-06s that the majority of hunters in my family used and was much sleeker looking than the .30-30s, .32 Specials and .35 Remington’s that the rest used. I was familiar with the .300 Savage also as my grandad used that one and the found cartridge was sexier looking that that one too….it had the silvertip so that helped! Well since that time I have developed a sincere appreciation for the cartridge and now have 15 rifles in that chambering - Savage 99s, Remington Classics and a custom based on the 700 action, Ruger 77 ultralight and RSI, a custom Sako L591, two custom Kurz Mausers build by Griffin & Howe and Clayton Nelson, and an FN Mauser. I’ve used it on whitetails, mule deer, black bear and elk…..it does have magical properties (of course not really but for me it’s the nostalgia) and have only had one instance where it “let me down” out of dozens of successes.

Love the stories about Jim from those that knew him - sounds like a looney that would fit right in😁

PennDog

I've read that article. Not recently but I remember having enjoyed it

Lanyne's article on the Savage 1920 is full of errors. It appears that he wrote it based on a sample size of one, so he didn't recognize that two features of his rifle, a checkered bolt knob and a barrel band, like that on the Savage 340 series, weren't cataloged attributes of either the 1920 or 20/26.

It is one of those articles that puts out bad information and is accepted by the general public as being accurate because it came from a professional writer. It is an article that shows that even professional writers cut corners and do incomplete research on the subject that they are writing about. Since reading it, I have questioned everything that Layne has written.

I've owned a lot of Savage 1920s and 20/26s and about half of them had serial numbrers on the stock/buttplate and action that didn't match. The wood to metal fit of the 1920s and 20//26s is a lot less critical than on the 99s.

The rifle in the picture appears to be a post-1970 99A, the only style of post-WW2 regular production 99 that had a straight grip stock and a tang safety. There were only 4 post-1960 tang safety 99s cataloged 250-3000, the ultra rare 99DL/M and 99F that were cataloged briefly in the very early 1960s and the more common 99A and 99CD that were cataloged in the 1970s. I've only seen 3 99DL/Ms in 250-3000 and have 1 of them. I've seen several tang safety 99Fs in 250-3000, owned a couple of them, but sold the last one when times were tough in the early 90's.

Once upon a time I owned a mint 1976 Savage 99 250 CD with a medallion mounted in the butt stock. Because I didn't like the way it didn't feed from the detachable magazine I sold it for a sincere profit. Being a younger fool than I am today I thought I'd find another one soon enough. The older guy I sold it to probably has the rifle to this day...







Wonder if he'd consider selling it back to me?

Yes, thank you for the article

Weird, I didn't know November had 31 days in 1941.

That was back when things were great

PennDog

I used to buy 99CDs in 250-3000 to rechmber to 257 Roberts, 257AI, and 25-284 and to use as donor actions. I saw and bought a lot more of them in 250-3000 then in either 243 or 308. At one time in the early 1990s I had a dozen or so of them most of which were rebarreled during my 284 wildcat phase and none that cost over $250. I still have a dozen or so of those take-off barrels on the shelf.

"This gun doesn't go BANG! It goes MEAT!" was what Dad said more than once, referring to his father's 99 takedown. It had 83 deer, three bear, and a horse (had to be put down) to its credit when he died. I've been able to add five more deer to the total. Plus more taken with a 700 Classic, Dakota 76 Alpine, and a M70 compact classic in .250AI. May need another .250, though.

Bob Milek article?

In his famous book, Larry Koller listed around 11 cartridges as being most frequently carried by guys he associated with in the 1930s and 40s. They were the 250 Sav, 257 Robts, 30-30 Win, 30 Rem, 300 Sav, 303 Sav, 30-40 Krag (another of his favorites), 303 Brit, 32 Win, 32 Rem, and 35 Rem. Most shots were taken at 150 yds or less in the Southern NY counties in which they hunted.

I averaged a few stats across this group: ave caliber .306 with sample standard deviation of .028; ave bullet weight 165 sd 30; ave velocity at 150 yd impact 1855 fps sd 234; and ave kinetic energy at 150 yds 1240 ft-lbs sd 225. These values vary a bit based on whether spitzer or roundnose bullets are used but they are within the standard deviations above. Most of these above don’t improve much with bolt action chambering with the clear exceptions of the 250, 257, and 300 Sav.

The 250 improves a great deal. The 120 grain Speer Grand Slam at 2825 fps produces more than 2415 fps and 1550 ft-lbs at 150, and beats these group velocity and energy averages at 250 yds. The 115 gr Nosler Ballistic tip at 2875 fps beats them out past 300 yds. Sure, we have much more powerful cartridges now, but the 250 Sav has substantially improved over time with better bullets, powders and actions. Handloader that he was, favoring heavier bullets anyway in his 250 Sav, I’ll bet Koller would be delighted with the modern possibilities for his little favorite.

He called the Savage .250 " a wonderful little jobber for women and small statured men " .

I love that book .

In the last edition , written in the preamble , his son and daughter stated he never took them hunting or fishing ?

I guess he was ornery fellow ?

Wouldn't take his kids hunting or fishing??

Sounds like a real dick head!!

Always liked this way of thinking. As if a critter will die easier from a smaller caliber/cartridge when shot by a kid or woman than if same cartridge/caliber were used by a big ol boy.

My 250 did a nice job on several pigs last year, one shot apiece. 100 grain Game Kings. I guess the pigs didn't know I'm 6' 2'' and about 225.

I am calling bullschitt.

No way you killed anything with a Sierra bullet especially a GK. Those things slip cores and blow up.

Don't tell the pigs about that either.

They would squeal on ya!!🤣🤣🤣

I killed a good one, about 150 pounds, with an 85 grain Speer boat tail out of a 243, and Speer boat tails are softer than Sierras.

I think they are a lot like the 85 grain Sierra Varminter, dang fine deer bullet.

Some worry about the "pass through" while I've lately been interested in the "drop down."

Never had an issue getting the Sierra through deer. Not like they are a big creature.

I knew Paul Koller a little toward the end of his life when he was a fly fishing guide out of Missoula, MT. Paul told me that Larry was a distant, non-participtive, father, more interested in his image and his interests than paying much attention to his own kids and supporting their interests. I never met Larry, but Paul was a nice guy and I have no reason to doubt what he told me.

Well, I caved and found a newer looking Tang Safety Ruger 77 in 250 Savage last week.. Couldn't handle all the talk and the rifle looks mint for being made in 1976. Should get it this week or next. Just for grin's, I ran some of my Lapua 22-250 brass through my 257 expander mandrel. Came out well, so assuming dies get in, I'll have it up and shooting pretty quick if it isn't a dog of a rifle. I have some 100 grain Sierra PH's, 110 ELDX's, 115 BT's and probably some other stuff as well. Hopefully something will perk. I have an older Zeiss 3x9 that should work fine on top of it.

35 grains of H4895 under those 100 grain Sierras would be a good one to try.

Thanks buddy. I was hoping you'd chime in with a quick load. Never loaded for one of them so a decent accuracy load won't hurt to get the rifle zeroed and see what it does.

It has done well for me with Ballistic Tips and Game Kings, no reason it shouldn't do well with a Pro Hunter.

That was my first inclination. I have some 100 grain Partitions as well. It'll be a deer gun, so I'd think any of them should work great.

I might experiment a bit more with the 110 ELD's, just cause. Seems like some of the newer powders can get some decent speeds..

I have a Ruger#1 I rebarreled from .270 to .250-3000, 1A configuration with a 1AB forend I shortened a bunch and installed an ebony tip. Cute as a bug, she is. The Douglas barrel is a 1-10 and handles heavy .25's with aplomb. The same bullets I use in my old slow twist Savages work a treat in the Ruger too, so that's what I've created a goodly stash of- 87 gr. Speers. I doubt there's a deer anywhere that'll tell the difference in what bullet I strike it with, 87's or 100's. 13 grains of lead ain't much in the whole scheme of things.

Going to shoot this one this coming weekend.Been sitting in the box too long.

That's a nice one! Can't wait to get the little fella out. It'll be a nice relief from the Whelen, 9.3, and bigger stuff for some gun time.

Expanding the 22-250 brass came out well? It may not be as simple as that. This may cause the case necks to be thin and a 250 die may not size the necks down far enough to hold a bullet properly. Also, make sure to check case length. In addition, necking up to 250, in most cases, requires pushing the shoulder back so when running the case into the 250 die the first time, make sure it is lubed properly and do it in small steps. This process is why I don't do it anymore. I fireform with standard rifle primers, Unique powder and "Cream of Wheat" filler.

Pay attention to pressure with reformed cases as you may experience sticky bolt lift with working loads in a 250-3000 cases.

Will do, thanks for the heads up. I will keep any eye out for any issues. Worst case is I have to spring for some 250 brass.

I've looked at 6.5 Creedmoor brass and thought that a fella could make .250 brass out of it fairly easily. Anybody done that?

It'd be interesting to lube one up and send it into the FL die and see what pops out.

Pretty sure you can make both using 22-250 brass.

.


Will do, thanks for the heads up. I will keep any eye out for any issues. Worst case is I have to spring for some 250 brass.[/quote] You have a mighty find rifle heading your way. Don't be discouraged if it does not shoot well and "throw the baby out with the bath water". There are easy solutions to tune those M77s and I will mention a few things to look for first before going further.

1) Three action screws need to be set at factory specs or experiment with a different sequence.

2) Angle stock action screw may be touching sides of hole in the stock.

3) Magazine should be should be somewhat loose in the box so it does not push up on the action.

.
Will do, thanks for the heads up. I will keep any eye out for any issues. Worst case is I have to spring for some 250 brass.[/quote]

You have a mighty fine rifle heading your way.

Don't be discouraged if it does not shoot well and "throw the baby out with the bath water". There are easy solutions to tune those M77s and I will mention a few things to look for first before going further.

1) Three action screws need to be set at factory specs or experiment with a different sequence.

2) Angle stock action screw may be touching sides of hole in the stock.

3) Magazine should be should be somewhat loose in the box so it does not push up on the action.

Great article, thanks for posting. I also liked Bob Milek who wrote often and loved all the 25's though it seemed his soft spot was for the 257 Roberts.

Koller's book is a classic book on whitetails and hunting them in the Northeast. In the last edition, I agree it was disappointing to read about the relationship he had with his kids

I just haven’t experienced problems with accuracy, case life, neck tension, chambering effort or extraction in resizing new 22-250 cases to 250 Sav. Particularly given the typical headspaces of +.006 to +.008” of my factory rifles with respect to sized new brass, I’d be surprised at the bolt lift problem even with hot loads. With my Savage Axis “home builds,” I’ve set most of my barrels in a variety of chamberings to +.003 to +.004 with respect to the sized brass—such that a GO gauge can not be seated—and even then haven’t had a problem with bolt lift after firing hotter loads as long as other high pressure signs were absent (markedly flattened primer, head abrasion etc).

Thanks Roundoak. I’ll give it a decent going thru when I get it to check them all. I’m a certified Model 70 nut but the Ruger 77 is right there for me.

I’ve made 6 Creedmoor from .22-250– a little short but they work. I strongly suspect you could go the other way. Might need a little trim.
Best,

Anyone else notice that November of 1941 had 31 days?