Yes they both had problems in the past. However, if you had one to pick for a brown bear hunt, which would you choose and why?
What about deer hunting?

For this exercise let's pretend you can purchase either gun and they are both without past company problems.

New production or in this hypothetical are we picking from anything made by them in the past?

Whatever you like

Waxing nostalgic tonight. Pre 64 in an Echols legend.

Older, Winchester for me. If brand new I might go Remington 700. Sounds like the new 700 rifles are pretty high quality just from a few early reports.

M70, new or old. Would never hunt dangerous game with anything but a crf based rifle.
For deer or other non dangerous game I have and use both types. Guess if I had to pick one I’d stay with the M70.

Rem 700. Just historically have had less problems mechanically and feeding. Simple as that.

Rem 700 - industry standard
Superior aftermarket support
The CRF argument is BS

Coyotes to deer to brown bear, 700 for me - always.

Which ever fit me the best....

I’ve killed 2 grizzly (albeit-not ‘brown’ bears) with a REM 700. No problem….

That said, the Mod 70s have always felt more solid to me than 700s and less like a kid’s toy, though they generally have been less accurate also. If I were to choose one over the other specifically for brown bears I’d probably go for a Mod 70.

You know that is weird that CRF is so important to some folks. I mean how many big five in Africa have fallen to Weatherbies, Sakos and 700's . Of course this is all theoretical for me I've never been to Africa after dangerous game

Winchester Model 70! It doesn’t have to be a CRF and assuming that both are box-stock, I much prefer the Winchester trigger. memtb

They both have issues I'd want addressed, no huge preference.

CRF, old style trigger M70 by a nose.

I feel there is no advantage in CRF, only disadvantages. I have a few.
I like the pre-64 triggers. I like the accuracy of the 700’s.
I had two post 63 M70’s. I liked the push feed the best.
I didn’t like Remington’s Tupperware stocks or the locking firing pin they once had.
I like the Winchester safeties. I didn’t like Remington’s safety that locked the bolt closed.
I’d be happy with either a M70 or a M700. But I own more than 10 to 1 Remingtons over Winchester M70’s.

If I had either one I’d set the trigger on the 700 or give the 70 to a smith for a trigger job. I’d glass bed and if inclement weather was expected, a top of the line synthetic stock and a top of the line weather proof finish on the metal.

Either one would be much nicer than any other factory rifle that I’ve owned. (Ruger, Savage, Tikka & a few other European manufacturers)

I'm with Bugger on this. Either one as long as it was worked over.

I've taken grizzlies & coastal brownies with 700's in 30-06, 300 Win Mag, 8mm Rem Mag & 300 RUM, a few with a Win 70 in 300 Win Mag years ago and a couple with a Sako TRGS in 7.82 Warbird, most recent one was in '22 while out Spring black bear hunting, a charging griz at 13 steps with a Rem 700 in 300 RUM

More than a few were defensive close range in your face kills while moose hunting or skinning/gutting moose

Never crossed my mind that I should have a crf, just work the bolt and shoot

When I decided to build a dedicated brown bear hunting rifle when I had the predator control permit for brownies & blackies, I built it on a Rem 700 with a McMillan stock, Trigger Tech Special trigger, an 8 tw .408 cal Rock Creek barrel with a Muscle brake & the Last Frontier bottom metal for 5 round 3.850" Accurate mags

Not sure how a crf bolt would improve on that set up

M70.
Better extractors. Better (safer) trigger. 1 piece bolt and handle. Better safety.

Model 70 if baco.
Rem 700 new production or late 80s early 90s.

The new 700 Alpha 1 has some upgrades that make it more to my liking. First, it has a one-piece bolt, unlike the old version and the post-64 Winchesters, both of which occasionally have failures of the handle-bolt body connection. It also has a Sako/M16 extractor. I never liked that tiny thingy inside the bolt face on the 721-722-725-700 rifles, though they seem to work better than they look.

I prefer CRF provided the parts are robust and properly tuned. Good 98s are the standard for that, but some others have been made with castings or not properly tempered and may fail. I believe some of the Classic M70s have those, but later ones are supposed to be better. A doctor that belongs to my club had a M70 Classic .458 out one day practicing offhand for an Africa trip. He’d had the cast(?) extractor replaced with IIRC a Williams unit.

That Alpha 1 is priced about the same as a comparable M70. If I were in the market for a new rifle, I’d certainly want to see one in person before buying anything in that price range.

Be happy with what you have, there is no wrong answer.
Have confidence in what you carry.

I totally agree. I've had many extractor failures with the 700's and 722's. Won't buy another one. Judging by some of these comments, no one has ever had an extractor fail on them? Or they don't want to admit it.

Got them both. Don't give a chit...

Prefer a bullet proof '98 tho. Got one of them too.

Only broken/failed extractor I've ever had was on my 725 SA. Replacement 700 extractoir fixed that.

Don't think a .260 is the best bear gun tho.

none of my 700 factory barreled rifles ever had a failure

All the customized 700's in my wildcats either had Sako or M16 extractors installed

HEY- I re-soldered the handle back on my .243 700. (2nd one I've done). I have confidence in it.... I know it's GTG

"I've had many extractor failures with the 700's and 722's."

Really?

I have more than a few of both. I guess I would pick the one chambered for the cartridge I decided to use. That simple. Mb

No you haven’t.

Agreed. If bullzchit was music......

Preface: my bolt guns are all CRF right now, but I've never shot at anything that would eat me (at least, not while I was alive). In theory, having CRF for dangerous game makes perfect sense. But I'm guessing the vast majority of it in America has been killed without CRF and folks didn't get eaten (Rem 700 + Remington pumps + Marlin 336 + Winchester lever guns has to have killed more cougars and bears than M70s just based on availability and volume, right?)...

I don't buy into the CRF hype and the 700 BDL to my eyes is the handsomest rifle I've seen

I have a few of both push feed versions, not much difference at all. The controll feed versions of Wins are different on a plus and also a minus basis.

The cure to the ills of the CF Wins and the 98 Mauser both for a DG rifle is the action that combines the pluses of both rifle styles into one action, the 1999 Montana Rifle Co action, if you can find one to build on. The MRC bunch was supposed to get back into production in late 2023. I have four custom rifles I built on 1999 MRC actions. They make a real good DG rifle, when done correctly.

Same.. P64 in a Legend...

I prefer M70's. The safety, old style trigger, easy bolt disassembly, and extraction system in either CRF or PF all count for me.
For Alaskan bear my SS Classic in .338 would work. Frankly, I would prefer my Talkeetna with its 21 in barrel
M70s in .375 tend to be heavier than I like.

For deer, a M70 FW works well. Pretty much any kind. Some of the PF's from the late 80's are especially nice.

As far as extractor failures I have been involved with two on 700's, none on M70's.

The biggest issue I have seen is with 700's. Folks fail to clean the bolt and you get failures to fire. We see this afew times each year at our sight in days.

M70 SS Classic with the old style trigger (simple hook and lever). I'd have the bolt pinned and action worked over. Then I'd stick it Echols or Bansner. Scope of you choice but I'd prob go NF SHV 2.5-10x42 for bear work.

I will stick to my Mod 70's. After all it is a personal choice. And if memory serves me correctly wasn't there a big lawsuit and recall on the 700 safeties and triggers???

I failed to mention the much better (IMO) safety of the Model 70 Winchester! That alone is a deal breaker for me! memtb

I’ve owned a few of both, still do actually. All have been older models.
I would probably grab the XTR first but really the 700’s are not to be denied. Close my eyes and choose, either would suit me.

Osky

With me it's most likely 6 of one and a half dozen of the other. I have both with the M70s all push feeds with one exception. It's an M70 Stainless Classic .338 Win. Mag. and frankly, I hate it. It's too light for the cartridge and literally beats me to death.

I do like the M70 XTRs. Mine are .270 Win., 257 Roberts and a 7x57. The .270 and 7x57 are tack drivers but I have yet to find something that makes the .257 happy. Most have been used as range rifles but the .270 and 7x57 have done a couple of hunts.

I don't dislike the Remington M700 but I am a touch leery about their extractors. Hey used the same style in the M660 and I had one fail in a deer hunt. I like the feel of the BGL and the Classic also feels pretty good. The BDL and one Classice are in 30-06 and the other Classic is a .35 Whelen. I'n gonna have to replace the recoil pad on the .35 as the original has literally turned to stone.

I have other post 64 aand post 68 M70s ranging from .243 to .338 Win. magnums and i'd hunt them and not get too worried as long as the chambering is suitable for the game hunted.

However, most of the time one of those rifles is used more as a back up to one of my chosen serious hunting rifles which are based on milsurp and commercial FN Mauser actions. Just my personal preference. the only failure I've ever had on a hunt was when the scope turned toes up on me while checking the sights in New Mexico the day before my elk hunt was to start. Rifle is based on an Oberndorf action and runs slicker'n snot on a doorknob. Back up was a 30-06 custom based on a commercial FN Mauser action.

For the record, prior to 2009, all my hunts were self guided. Couldn't get drawn for antelope in my home state and the outfitter wouldn't allow my Ruger #1 in .300 Win. Mag for the hunt. He does not like single shot rifles. I used a Winchester M70 XTR and took my speed goat at a way out yonder 75 yards. I did all my cow elk hunts with my .35 Whelen Mauser and one or another of my rifles based on Mauser actions. I just want a riffle I know will work 100 % of the time so while the M70 and M700 do work well, I'll tick with my rifles based on the M98 mauser; especially if the critter decided to bite back.
PJ

PJGunner, I’d sure like to relieve you of that Model 70 SS CRF .338 WM, but we don’t need it……so says my wife! 😉 She has essentially the same rifle, and doesn’t want to replace her “push feed” SS .338 WM just to have the CRF version.

She’d have the CRF version, had there been one available when we grabbed her rifle at a gun show back in ‘95. memtb

Hypothetical because I never have, and never will, encounter a big bear in the hunting days I have left. I'd choose a Model 70 LH Classic for its safety, trigger, extractor and ejector. For deer, it would be the same based on the safety and trigger alone. If they made a push feed 70 in left hand that'd be fine, but I'd still prefer the Classic for things that might fight back.

I never hunted dangerous game and I never had an extractor failure in any of my 700's. I like both Win 70 and Rem 700, but if I had fear of extractor failure in my 700 I would simply use one of my Win 70s. Or if I was using Rem 700 I'll have a good 44 mag revolver as a back up.
Question, what causes extractor failure, is it dirt or gummed up oils.

I worked in a LGS back in 92-95. I saw more than one 700 come in with a failure to extract problem. The gunsmith hated working on them also. (RIP Pat) Never seen a M70 come in with a problem. I guess that has a lot to do with my affinity for M70's.
We sold Rems, Winchesters, Ruger's and Brownings and Savages, plus a lot of consignment guns. We did not sell clothes backpacks or other stuff. Guns , ammo and reloading stuff was the forte'.

Usually when someone came in and was looking for new rifle, I would steer them to the M70. Once I showed them field strippable bolt, the simplicity of the trigger and how the safety worked it was over. M70 hands down.

Also have a hunting acquaintance in west central Va. that shot a very large Black bear with a 700 in 25-06. Ronnie went for a follow up shot as the bear was leaving. Extractor failed to extract at the worst possible time. We never found that bear.

There's a reason there is an aftermarket "upgrade" for the safety and extractor on 700's.
Never heard of one for a M70.

I own exactly one Remington rifle. A sportsman 78 in .243 win. It hangs out in the corner of the safe.

Just my opinion. It's worth what you paid for it.

Between the two mentioned by the op I’d take a m70 crf.

I’ve been on 1.5 brown bear hunts so not exactly a cornucopia of experience. But my guide was an experienced chap and gun enthusiast.

We obviously had many discussions about perspective on guns for the task. His view was that folks have all kinds of theories on what’s best and it’s funny to see them debated ad nauseum on social media. And the reality is, he didn’t give a szchit what people brought as long as they could shoot.

He used a 375 Ruger because a client gifted it to him.

Far too much brain power expended on this without actual application.

People have successfully hunted other armed people with push feed rifles.

So to with sticks and stones.

For what it is worth, I have had more issues with CRFs feeding and extracting brass than I have with push feed rifles.


Other than 22 LRs, every failure to extract I can recall (which is not many) has been my fault-pushing the pressure limits just a bit too much. The feeding issues (again, not many) were from claw extractors not grabbing the case head properly, and a few due to me not sizing correctly (I think). I suspect the case head issues were more from the brass being banged up, rather than the claw, but I really am not sure. What I do know is push feeds have not been an issue for me when I do things right.

Pre 64 model 70/Legend stock that a good smith had put together, which I have in 300 H&H.

M700 or M70?? Shirley you jest. Like choosing between a VW Micro Bus and a BMW...

Probably a 70.

Not due to CRF vs PF or anything - mostly due to how I like to work a bolt. Cup and ball style. My fingers never actually grasp the bolt handle, it rides in my palm while I work the action. Faster for me and the 70 bold handle is a better fit for that for me than the 700 which is more like a smooshed out milk dud in shape. Actually, the smooth bolt handle on a Ruger M77/MKII/Hawkeye is perfect.

Probably a M70, just because it's what I have in cartridges suitable for African big 5 and big bear. My .375 is the Ruger built on a M70 XTR push feed, and I have a .338-06 on a SS M70 Classic. If I had a M700 rifles instead chambered the same, that is what I'd use.

Whichever you can shoot best. Practice shooting it, rather then debating gear on the internet. And then choose a Model 700.

Let me ask the question again because I have never experienced extractor failure, what causes it or what can cause it?

Dirt, grease, powder, brass chips can cause it.

A rough chamber can cause it to pull up over the rim and not extract.

Possibly weak clip??

It's not very big and doesn't get a lot of purchase on the rim.

Only ones I had fail were on a brand new rifle. Rough chamber from the factory which held the fired brass tight enough the extractor wouldn't pull it from the chamber.

I like both, have and would use both. I own aeveral of both. But. Given my druthers, I would take the M70 every time.

Thank you 10gaugemag

I've completely lost confidence in anything Remington with the exception of the 870. I have a slight preference for CRF, but for the PF Winchesters are pretty good too. Lately Tikka has become my favorite rifle.

CRF is misunderstood. From a reasonably clean rifle there is absolutely no difference in reliability and the average hunter will never be in a position where CRF might be an advantage. The reason dangerous game hunters and guides have always preferred CRF is because it is more likely to EXTRACT and EJECT if the rifle has been abused and filthy. If I'm hunting in mud, snow, ice, dirt, dust, and there is the possibility my rifle could be dropped in mud or sand and have to work CRF gives me slightly better odds. And that is more important when shooting at something that bites back.

Oh oh... Now that you've stated you've not had a failure, you're gonna get a failure..

One other thing can give you grief that is not mentioned above (that I saw, anyway) - a previous owner who had a replacement installed by someone who didn't do it right and it got slightly bent during replacement.. Severe enough, and the rounds won't chamber.. I ran into that a half-dozen times before..

In my 23 years of rifle work I've replaced probably 20-25 Rem extractors.. But only 3-4 on the M70 (both PF and CRF)..

But like another said above - use the one you shoot best and go hunting..

Fantasies about charging bears, and pretending you are going to be emptying your gun like a ph make people think they need a crf. The first bullet is the one that matters. If you can’t kill it on the first try, your gear regardless of extraction isn’t going to be a deciding factor.
Dream on.

Yup. Personally, I've seen more M70s fail to feed than 700s. If you want CRF, I rarely see Ruger rifles fail to feed. But a Remington 700 tends to feed like butter if properly sprung. Or throw on an AICS magazine and you have the round center-feeding from the cartridge lips until its half in the chamber, then the bolt finishes pushing it in while it has nowhere to go.

Haven't seen a Tikka have trouble feeding either.


CRF is a lot of hype and fantasy.

I took my stainless 375 H&H M70 on my first brown bear hunt and will take it again this year though with a different scope and mount.

DG with a pushfeed? Blasphemy. Jk.
I'd go 700 and not think twice about it.

^^ A man that knows how to shoot!
Shoots a Remington.

Idon't own a 70. But I do have 700s and I have never had a failure to feed, extract, ot fire with a 700. I trust a 700 to work when needed.

M70, out of familiarity alone. Nothing against 700s, just not enough experience with them to really comment.

Don't care much about CRF. Even in real rough conditions, would imagine say a Tikka works as well as most any CRF guns. Be interesting to see what it takes to make one fail, especially being a rather well sealed system.

Would be fun to see what makes a Vanguard/Howa choke compared to a 700 as well.

lol...

Everyone knows the answer is "neither" - pass the Tikka T3

M 70 push feed is the answer............LOL

Honestly if I am going after DG I am taking the Kimber Montana or Classic since they are the only ones I have in a caliber for DG.

It probably doesn't matter that much in reality. CRF is nice, but push feed rifles work just fine so I don't see that as an issue.

If I had to choose I would go with one of my M70 's, mostly because of the pre-64 trigger. I like Remington 700's and have used them plenty, but I once had problems with a Walker trigger freezing up partially in cold damp weather. Since that is the sort of weather that is often encountered on brown bear hunts I'd feel a bit more confident with the M70.

I also have Ruger Hawkeyes and they are a very robustly built rifle that would also be well suited to a brown bear hunt.

This is a typical question on campfire: assuming the people who answer are the last word on the issue. You're asking the wrong crowd. Go to people that have the experience to be objective. People like the Shumakers in Alaska, the late Don Heath in Africa or Kevin Robertson from Africa. After 30-40 years of seeing what works, those folks know what they're talking about.

You can ask them all you want. The type of extraction is likely down the list of what they like to see in a customer. Whereas they prefer clients who can shoot accurately. Follow instructions. And are good tippers.

How are we supposed to ask the late Don Heath anything? Via a medium?

700 remington

I have and like both, not taking any sides here.
I live close to Ilion and like 700's but,
A 70 has never had a bolt handle come off in someone's hand. Happened to a friend that was hunting in Canada on a very expensive hunt, was not happy. Was bad braze combined with very cold weather.
A 70 has never not extracted due to a cheap C clip failing. Has happened many times.
A 70 has never had its safety the subject of lawsuits lost.
I had a Model Seven that had the barrel drilled off center, sad to say the quality at Remington was sub-par for many years.
I'm hate to see them leave Ilion but maybe they will get the quality back in Alabama.

All very good points

And I'll add, the 70's safety locks the bolt handle. Remington's concept is inconceivable to me.

And yet millions of sportsman, soldiers, and recreational shooters use them worldwide with no issues.


Go figure.

The only time I had a cartridge fall out of a rifle while loading one in the chamber was with a push feed. Rifle was held straight up and while slowly trying to load a round quietly the round fell out and hit rocks at me feet.

…..and Joe Biden got millions of votes, too.

Remington quality has been in the crapper since the early 90s. The 700 design as built by Remington had some weaknesses which have been acknowledged and addressed by others for years. It’s hard to be as robust as a full length extractor, without a full length extractor. I own both designs and more. I don’t think it’s so much a push feed vs CRF comparison between the two, as it is a perceived robustness of operation in adverse conditions view by many. Back in the late 90s-early 2000s, I’ve sent multiple brand new M40s back to the REM Arms mil shop over bad headspace, bad receivers, and crap chambers that broke extractors. Execution has always been Remington’s problem…..not design. There are plenty of Remington clones that are made better. A Mauser 98 with a 3-pos is the stuff, though.

Spot on.

Looks like Winchester is the ultimate for quality. Especially if you like noisy safeties, weak striker springs, hot glue bed jobs, mostly abortion stock designs…

Is their a noisier safety than the gun going off when you take it off?

I'll say this and butt out.

I've owned exactly 29 model 700s and still have a few.
From 17 Rem to .375h&h. Models as old as the early 70s and as new as 2020. Some were more accurate than others, but all were accurate enough for the job. Some were real screamers. Most notable were a VLS in 223 and a 700PSS in 308.

I've never had a bolt handle fall off, an unintentional discharge, or any of the other stuff I often hear about.

Good question. I’m not a gun slob therefore my junk is maintained. Never had it happen.

Model 70, old style trigger, CRF for me. Pre 64 or Classic would work.

I have replaced three extractors on 700's, never had a bolt fall off, or AD.

Handle them both and you'll see why I'll never own a Remington again (I started with Remington, quite a few in the 80s but when Win reintroduced the CRF in the 90s I was done and bought as many as I could). Would not buy a current production W70 but that's just me, I'm sure they are fine!