Going to buy one or the other in a few months. I'm not interested in discussing the effectiveness of either on Whitetails. I'm not a reloader "yet" but will be as soon as a shop is completed and space is available.

What I want to know is, does either lend itself more easily to load development or bullet choices. I don't think in terms of throat length and mag confines or bullet choices, so I need to ask you guys. I would just like to pick the one that would more easily lend itself to the things a reloader does to achieve better accuracy. Does either the 243 Montana or 7mm-08 excel in that area?


If it's a wash, I'll likely pick the 243 since Whitetails will be the only game hunted and the kids or wife may use it at times, so recoil is a concern.

Wash, but given your last sentence, 243.

I have the Kimber in .243, and it is one of my favorite rifles, ever.

The .243 shot Federal Fusion 95gr. so well I never even tried any handloads. I have the dies and components on the shelf if the Fusions run out.

In 7.08 I went a little heavier. Simply because I have had a detached retina.

Either will be good, but a 7-08 shooting 120s or less is a 243 for all intents and purposes, including recoil. I'd go with a 7-08 because it is more flexible in reloading for game. It will go down to 100gr bullets and shoot up to about the 168 grainers. If you don't care about more flexibility, the 243 will do the job.

+1. Mine (and it seems a lot of them) really shoots the 120 NBTs well.

I disagree.

Having owned both a Kimber Montana 7mm-08 and a 243, the 7mm-08 with full power 120s is a considerable step up in recoil from a 243, especially in a light rifle like the Kimber. A Kimber 7mm-08 will come back at you pretty fast, and it wouldn't be tough to scope oneself with a light hold while firing full power loads.

In comparison A 243 can be loaded with a bullet like the 80 grain TTSX at around 3000 fps, and be a real pussycat to shoot, while still maintaining a nice trajectory.

The 7-08 will take reloading better than the 243, which has a tendancy to stretch brass. The 7-08 , on the other hand, is a jewel to load for, is not picky, and can be loaded to meet any recoil requirement (within reason) you may have.

The additional recoil of a well fitted rifle will be minimal.

good luck in your choices.

My wife and son never had any problem handling the 7mm-08. I only used Remington factory 140's in it. The 7mm-08 gives the reloader a whole heck of a lot of options.

My brother-in-law loads both equally well and both seem very accurate. He doesnt reload alot so neither must be too hard. I know his loads are mainly lighter loads for his wife and son and they seem to always kill deer. He doesn't have any issues. I know my next rifle is going to be a Montana in either 243 or 223 to replace a heavier predator rig I have. The weigh or (lack of it) is addicting. Too bad they are always on back order.

Take recoil and versatility for different game out of the equation. Is either designed so that it can more easily be loaded for accuracy?

I would say both cartridges are a wash as far as intrinsic accuracy.

The 243 will have a stiffer barrel than the 7mm-08 due to the smaller diameter bore, which certainly lends itself to better accuracy.

An oft overlooked part of shooting for accuracy is recoil. With a light recoiling rifle, one can concentrate on firing more easily without worry. Light recoil also means being able to hold the rifle without a death grip, which generally helps usable accuracy.

With the 243, it wouldn't be tough to start the kids on 55s loaded to 223 velocities, then work the loads up as they see fit, transitioning to a deer bullet when the time comes.

Does the chamber in either facilitate easier kissing of the lands? Am I right that the magic is to short on both?

I'd say 243 but I can't get myself to purchase one with a 1-10" twist, so it'd be 7mm08 all the way.

Actually, the 223 would be a good way to roll.

What would be your load of choice in 223 for Whitetails, and do you have as much confidence in it as something like an 80grn TTSX or 85grn Game king in a 243?

This...^^^^^
I took a large mature Doe this years with a 223 Barnes 55gr TSX. 130yrd broadside shot and had a total pass through with a textbook wound channel. I typically would have taken a neck or head shot but wanted to see what the monolithic bullet would do. I'm impressed.
These modern bullets has really made these smaller calibers competent deer killers. This will probably be my sons first center fire rifle. No recoil, not loud, accurate, and cheap to shoot.

I'm still hesitant on the 223 in a Montana if for no other reason than I own a Colt 6720 set up with light scope and mounts that can take care of my 223 needs, especially if the kids are involved.

I'm leaning 243 since I have a nice Sako L579 in 243, so I would kill two birds with the reloading components. I know the same could be said for the 223 but I still give the edge to the 243 for deer, even though I know the 223 will get the job done.

I like your thinking on this and you can load reduced-loads if needed. Felt recoil in many guns can be a problem for those learning to shoot. The .243 is an excellence deer/predator caliber.

And I am wrestling with the same thing. I have a good but heavy 223 and really want a light weight Montana in a predator caliber. The 243 could pull double duty and give me another caliber. It would also make a idea rifle for my son. My only problem is with the Montana is no dealers in my area can ever get enough of them. They are always back ordered. Is it like that everywhere???

The 243 will be better in this regard.

I have both, not in Montana's. I tend to go with prairie goat.. The .243 seems to fit your needs.. I shoot my .243 far more than the 7mm-08, although it is very accurate..

223 or 308 if you don't Reload. A schitty Colt Krunchenticker ain't even in the same book,let alone page...as a Montucky 223.

Now as the 243 vs 7-08 goes,in said platform...you is Hungchow in several ways. The 243 is 1-10" which sucks heavy ass and the 7-08 has more throat than box,though are twisted with enough RPM to do it all(which means 162's). I'd rather leap a 162,than kiss a Ping Pong Ball in the 243.

The 223 Montucky will be shot a whole [bleep] bunch more than anything else and along with the actual act of shooting,there is a byproduct of non-lineal "luck" that reliably begins to blossom.

Hint.

Now will a 223,243,7-08 and 308 shoot nice Agg's? Yes and reliably. Reliabler yet,is the dot connection of trigger time bolstering the daintytitude of relative Agg sizing. Conjoin light done right,in a handy/dandy parcel that is funner than [bleep] to shot and there will be a long line of patrons eagerly awaiting their turn. Good boolits,in good places...do great thangs.

Funny how it actually works.

Re-hint.

I'd go 7-08. .243 will be fine for whitetails but life MAY be more than whitetails tomorrow. 7-08 is more versatile, recoil will be minimally more but added bullet weight is often appreciated. Here we have a collection of 7-08's, wife's Dakota, son-in law's Browning, 2 Remingtons for my daughter and self in long guns and one pistol. Shot everything from prairie poodles to elk, kudu and caribou, lost count on deer (assorted) and pronghorns. Reloading is a snap and 7mm bullets are offered in nearly any size and shape (110-175 grains for sure) but factory stuff is available and as good as it gets. Still in doubt flip a coin.

Lightweight, Alabama Whitetails, and kids mean 243... especially in a rifle as light as the Kimber.

I've had at least 4 or 5 10-twist 243's... they work just fine. In an ideal world, a 9-twist is better, but in a world full of 6mm bullets it's pole vaulting mouse turds to fret over a 10-twist.

Best Regards...

B-, ironic you mention this now, good timing. I'm looking at picking one up this weekend that supposedly won't shoot for my nephews to try to burn out the barrel for exactly the reason you state. Hopefully it doesn't shoot as well as the 308 I picked up that wouldn't shoot.

Any particular load combos you recommend, assuming components are findable?

given you wife will hunt it the .243! For the 7-08 I would go .308 as easily the most simple to load and shoot, I find the 308 easy get to shoot accurately and it comes in those big green boxes of 500 rounds per...

its too bad you don't reload the .257 Roberts I have in select classic is a wonderful rifle, (but I know nothing as its a short action and everyone knows they are awful with 100 at only 3000 FPS) but I would take a Montana in same any day.

Better to just buy a 375 H&H, because life MAY include a cape buffalo hunt someday. It's more versatile than the 7mm-08, so that makes it better.

"I'd rather leap a 162,than kiss a Ping Pong Ball in the 243"
I still don't know what you mean by that statement and I've read it several times. Do you mean the 243 is too light? If so how is the 223 a better choice? I'm talking a Whitetail only rifle and 200 yards is a long shot around here. I'm sure the 308 is extremely versatile but recoil is a consideration.

It means the twist is [bleep].

What ballistic coefficient do you recommend for a .243?
(for hunting purposes)


+.500?

I don't recommend according to BC. I do know that my favorite don't work in a 1-10" twist and I have a bushel full of those.

Guess I'm curious as to what the upside of a 1-10" twist is?

That may be but since my maximum distance would be 300 yards, do I really need to be concerned with high BC bullets? I mean wouldn't I be more likely to get an accurate load being able to kiss the lands, or is the point that those bullets that will kiss won't stabilize with the 1 in 10 twist?

Trying to learn something here.

He would rather shoot high BC 162 AMAX's in a 7mm-08 than low BC bullets in the 243. 243 has good bullets available, but the slow twist on the 243 Montana won't stabilize them. Accurate, high BC bullets will perform better for you than low BC bullets that kiss the rifling. If you are bound and determined to shoot low BC bullets out of a Montana, you may as well go down to the 223 - you'll burn 1/2 the powder and the recoil is so light it will encourage a lot of shooting. Lots of shooting is more important than chambering, BC, etc....

David

What do you mean by "high BC bullets will perform better" Do you mean be more accurate at 200 yard range or just that they will hold their energy and not drop as much at long range? Keep in mind that a 200 yard shot is a very long one where I hunt. I'm just wondering if the low BC but heavier bullet of the 243 won't be a better killer at the shorter range.

There's no downside when you're out hunting with one.

.500 = 105?

.420 = 90 Scenar. Which works in a 10".


.080 BC makes or breaks what?

Shooting steel at 800 yards?


I fail to see a problem.









Doesn't sound like a sniper rifle is required.

You don't wanna be seating into the lands with a hunting load.

Titty Shooter,

May have more than (1) rifle myself and in mebbe more than (1) chambering.

Boolit weight means dick.

Hint.










Brad,

You poor,poor stupid [bleep].

Bless your heart,that you're still [bleep] tryin'.

Laffin'!










'bird,

My first pitch would be a 75A-Max kiss,in front of '335,with 400 fueled R/P hulls.

I hear good thangs.










'mmyp,

Do tell about how a 243 and 7-08 are "tough" to load for. Laffin'!

Please consider Whining a leetle louder,a leetle longer and leetle more often about your Do Nothing Bob.

It's a [bleep] hoot!











'Clark,

Grab a 223 Montucky and let everyone take a turn,then get back to me.

300yds ain't nearly far enough away,to be "fair".

Hint.










SammO,

The upside to a 9" 6mm,is that there is no downside. You can go .547 BC in 105,if'n you wish...though in fairness I'm smitten with .530 Fueled Forays.

Cheer up,it ain't like I ain't suffered 1-10" and 12" 6mm's.

Hint.










'goat,

Too bad I cain't recall the 100's of 1000's of kisses I've happily launched.

Hell...I reckon I may even toted a smooch on a Hunt.

Hint.

This schit do get funny and fast.

Boxer
What would be your bullet of choice for the 9 twist 223? Please give a second in case the first doesn't do well.

'Clark,

Sloooowwwwwww things down,skin 'er back and read everything I said again. It's all there.

Then thank me later.

A couple thoughts

Nosler manual #7
243 Winchester, 100 gr. Partition (similar to typical cup and core in ballistic co-efficient)
BC: .384
MV, 2900 FPS
200 yd. zero 1.7� high @ 100 yds., 7.3� low at 300.
7mm-08, 140 gr. Accubond (my favorite in the 7mm-08)
BC:.485
MV: 2800 fps
200 yd. zero, 1.8� high @ 100 yds., 7.7� low at 300.. I�
I don�t know how the terrain is in your part of Alabama, but here it is thick. That taken with the fact that I am a meat hunter I almost never shoot past 300 yds. Additionally due to the fact that if an animal is not DRT, he many times is not found. A hole going in and one going out gives one two chances to find a blood trail. Conseqently I prefer a heavier bullet, usually 6.5 mm and up for hogs and deer.
Now as to kissing the lands.
It is my understanding that the chambers on production rifles are cut to SAAMI specs. Factory ammo is also loaded to SAAMI Specs. That means that any commercial ammo should chamber in any production rifle of the same caliber. I�ve owned many rifles from A to Z. It has been my experience on most that if one was to load the bullet out to where it kissed the lands, sometimes the base of the bullet does not even touch the case, much less fit in the rifles magazine. Typically magazine length is the most common limiting factor.
Here is an example.

This is the detachable magazine for a Sako 75 Varmint, chambered for the 260 Remington. Sakos are generally accurate and their chambers are not known for sloppiness. Notice the Maximum OAL of the cartridge that can be loaded in the magazine is 2.940. I don't know how you are, but I prefer to have a little wiggle room in the magazine/cartridge box.





The SAAMI max OAL cartridge length for the 260 Remington is 2.800�. I�ve developed a load for my Sako at 2.900 inches. This particular cartridge measures 2.902.




If I do my part the Sako will put three in a ragged hole at 100 yds.




Next, using my Stoney Point OAL gauge and a 125 gr. Nosler Partition, here is the cartridge �kissing the lands�


As you can see, to load this round with the bullet �kissing the lands , the rifle would have to function as a single shot.

Good hunting and best of luck with whatever you choose.

Best,

GWB

If you get the 7, you will still need to get a 243.

I regret the first half of my life was spent without one.

Fun to shoot and with modern bullets it kills like lightening.

Thank you very much sir for the tutorial. I really need to learn a few things about reloading. Basically trying to buy the cart before I know the size of the horse.

It was admittedly funnier than [bleep] schit and I especially enjoyed:

"It has been my experience on most that if one was to load the bullet out to where it kissed the lands, sometimes the base of the bullet does not even touch the case"

Where do these incredibly inept dumbfhukks come from?!?

Wow.

Like watching a Jerry Lewis Telethon.

Laffin'!

Clark, given the parameters you have stated, the wife and kids and you don't reload. I'm guessing you haven't done a lot of shooting or hunting (not a slam). I'd pick the 243 over the 223 and the 7-08, and not worry about all the rest.

Added - I wouldn't pick a Montana for a first rifle either.

Good luck with your choice.

AJD

Jeezus [bleep]...it just got even better!

Just WOW.

Where do you Day Dreaming Do Nothing Dumbfhukks come from?

I'd rather go with a 243 w/ a105 than a 7-08 w/ a 120. But, I'd rather go with a 7-08 w/120 than a 243 w/ anything but a 105.

RHC,

Just fer� schitz n� giggles.

Here is a very accurate Winchester model 70 push feed (post 64), chambered for the 270 Winchester. It has a Shilen select chrome moly barrel that has been fitted to the action. So it is not a �stock� chamber.




Here is the kind of accuracy it is capable of.



Two shots only you say. Once I�ve developed a load and have zero�d the rifle, I�m much more interested in where the first shot out of a cold barrel is going to impact. In this case the rifle was shot once, then about an hour later it was shot again to confirm POI vs. POA. With this in mind before I go afield, I�m confident.

Here is the measurement on the cartridge box.



The SAAMI max OAL cartridge length is given at 3.340�. My go to load in this rifle is with a 130 Gr. Nosler Ballistic tip with an OAL of3.355 or .015� over max, and no where near �kissing� the lands��




To �kiss� the COAL would be 3.547, well in excess of the Max length that would fit in the magazine. Once again if you wanted a single shot, that would be no problem except����.



To kiss the lands you would have only about .220� of purchase on the bullet by my measurement. IIRC one should have at least one cartridge diameter purchase or in this case, .277� of the bullet inside the case. Concentricity is a factor in accuracy and a mis-aligned bullet can cause you grief.

I know it might be heresy to say so, but after20 years of reloading, I don�t worry about kissing the lands other than to make sure the rifle�s chamber will accept rounds loaded to SAAMI book length. At my zenith I had reloading dies for 57 different centerfire cartridges between 17 ackley hornet and 458 Lott. Most all were started near �book� OAL.

The Kimber Motana in the caliber you choose will be a hunting gun, not a high dollar bench rest gun. It will have a commercial chamber. Factory ammo will do 1.5� at 100 yds or better. I�d be willing to bet that 90% of your shots will be 200 yds or less. Go out, kill stuff, enjoy the meat and don�t look back.

Best,

GWB

I've heard this rule too, but it makes loading anything for the .300 Winchester Mag impossible. which makes me skeptical of the rule, bc my .300 win mag seem to work pretty well (other than the excessive noise & recoil ...).

Thanks but I own several very nice rifles and have killed truck loads of deer with factory ammo. I do plan to start reloading and I do shoot more smallbore than centerfire. I don't need a rifle. I just want an ultralight weight that I can play with and that is well capable of deer at 200 or under yards. I thought a 243 was a good idea but Boxer has me thinking about heavier bullets in a 223 since they would only be 10-15 grains lighter than what I would shoot in the 243 anyway and use less powder, recoil less and give longer barrel life.

Outfit yourself for loading your own ammo before buying a new rifle. It'll make all the ones you currently have more interesting.

RHC,

If going the .223 route, twist will be important. On the Kimber's (1-9), it seems to be hit or miss on whether they'll stabilize the 75gr. A-Max.

Unfortunately, my Montana is a miss with the A-Max. I've got some 69gr. Scenars and 62gr. TSX I'm going to test this weekend in the Montana.

If nothing else, the 55gr. TTSX shoots very well in my rifle, and kills deer and feral hogs with aplomb!

Sir,
respectfully

here is a 300 Win Mag factory cartridge, 150 gr. Tipped Barnes bullet. COAL is 3.305" SAAMI Max is 3.340OAL.




Note the pix. there are two markings on the 150 gr. Ballistic tip (green tip). The mark closest to the tip is COAL 3.340" the second closest to the case mouth is 3.305". This would allow for a minimum of .490" of bullet purchase, significantly more than .308"

The second bullet is a 200 grain Nosler Accubond. By my measurement there will be approx. .813" of bullet inside the case at a COAL of 3.340".

Best,

GWB

Thanks for the insight. Do you have just as much confidence on deer and hogs with the 223 as a 243 with an 80 or 85 grain TTSX or an 85 grain Gameking? I've had good results with the Gameking in 243. Do you think the Montana would shoot these 243 bullets as well as one of the 223's you mentioned?

I would be interested to hear how the 69 Scenars and 62 TSX's shoot for you.

10-4 Rock on!

GWB, I believe that old theory refers to the length of the case neck, which is the only part of the case holding the bullet. The neck length on a 300 WM is approximately 0.265". Thus it is "less than one caliber" i.e. less than .308" in length. It is an old theory which has been shown by results to not be meaningful as 300 WM's have a long-established record for accuracy.

I think his point is that the neck on the .300WM is only .264", so the most the bearing surface of the bullet can be gripped by the neck is .264", regardless of whether you seat it deeper into the case or not.

Extremely confident.







.22 Hornet was my youngest son's preference for a few years.







I can't comment of Gamekings as to the best of my recollection, I've never killed any game with them. In the .243 we predominately used TSX.

For deer at less than 300 paces, it'd be hard to argue the efficiency of a SAAMI .223 or its Improved form with 75's or 62 X's....

Just buy the 243.

If you want to shoot the 75 grain Amax in the 223, it's going to involve a bunch of magazine modifications.

What prairie goat said.. a 223 is just a .223 there is nothing magic about them..

Oh I'm a huge fan of the 223, and it would be a delightful choice with other bullet options. But with the Kimber it's not quite as simple as just loading up 75s and killing stuff. Modifications need to take place.

The 243 is simply the easiest way to get from A to B, and good accurate factory ammo is available if the OP decides not to reload.

Simple and easy sounds good.

Gdub, oh I hear ya on seating the bullet as deep as you want. But as ive heard it opined, the point of the rule was neck engagement/tension. the .300 win mag cain't have a minimum .308" of neck engagement to boolit.

Whilst kissing 75's would require some minor mods to a .223 Montana, the 62X COAL is well within .223 mag confines and is a mean motor scooter when launched at 3k+ in its SAAMI form.

Don't forget that some States have a .243 minimum for deer....

Sir,

My apologies to you.

In that regard you were/are correct and I was wrong.

As I tell my kids, I knew that once, but I've slept since yesterday.

Without trying to beat it to death, I guess one of my pet peeves was showing. I tend to be an iconoclast.

I've loaded many different chamberings in numerous calibers, most, production rifles.



If I counted right, the pix above contains 36 different modified cases. In developing loads to be used to kill stuff in the past, I always checked out the max OAL cartridge lengths each rifle would accommodate. As stated previously many rifles are long throated. Over the years, I've almost quit loading "off the lands. Maybe I should call it Gdub's rule, but I want at least a cartridge diameter of bullet inside the case mouth. I may neck size with a collet die or even polish an expander ball to get more neck tension, but for concentric loads one needs sufficient purchase on a bullet. I still determine COAL, but typically load a few thousandths over the SAAMI book OAL.

Best,

GWB

One particular Alaskan Midget can't figure that out...

'dubya,

The Texas version of everything...is just [bleep] simply hilarious!

Really enjoyed the Treatise on the Goat [bleep] Custom 270.

Re-WOW.

Simply shut the [bleep] up,take notes and apply same. You are in sooooooo far over your [bleep] head,that it's a shame it's beyond your comprehension to savvy.

Hint.










'dawg6,

It bears fruit to pay heed to constriction values and I've long been a .003" Slut of the highest magnitude,due the beauty of moly and it's inherent attributes.

'Course lotsa folks miss that one too.










pointer,

I'd submit that a Montucky 223 flingin' Factory Fodder,would play hell on the Venison population.

'Course I'm granting the courtesy of there being no crossed-eyes,in the equation.(grin)











FO',

I hear good thangs about reserve RPM.

Even in a "lowly" 223.(grin)










'goat,

I'd rather mod a mag to kiss a 75'Max in 223...than Imagine to Pretend that it's "difficult" and refrain the inherent splendor.

'Course ignorance is Bliss and you are on a [bleep] roll!

Laffin'!










WYC,

Boolits matter more than headstamps and the pinnacle in 223,is the 75A-Max.

Hint.










'Clark,

It don't get easier,simpler or funner than a 223.

Yesssssssssss...that'd be another [bleep] hint.

Hint.










'gant,

The 75'Max in the Montucky has no equal,though in fairness...I do squirt 62's quite a lot faster than 3Kfps.

Hint.










Brad,

You Whining Do Nothing Kchunt...there sure as schit ain't no way to slight how WELLfounded your insecurities are.

As per always,I'm looking forward to another Whine and more Excuses,frosted copiously with your Imagination and Pretend,in no particular [bleep] order.

Laffin'!

Someone who "knows" as "much" as you,is always best served by asking questions,instead of giving "answers".

Bless your heart.

You should stay with making burgers,instead of talking out your ass.

Laffin'!

Ya' know B,

I'se beginnin to think ya din't luv me anymore.

Best,

GWB

dubya, what is that the Texas version of???? Looks like he's wearin' goggles!!!

G',

It certainly weren't my intent to infer in the slightest,that I don't get a kick outta your doing your best and the oblivious hilarity inherent them feeble efforts and incredible ineptitude.

Congratulations?!?

I'll feign my "surprise",that you quit trying to talk about Rifles...despite the great strides you thought you were making.

Laffin'!

Looking forward as per always,to more of your dumbfhukktitude.

That's a hill country hoglet.....



one of several that were dispatched to the "Petting Zoo" in the sky in the not too distant past.













Best,

GWB

B,

No problem,




keep a sharp eye peeled.


As I told you in 2010 at our first acquaintance on AR, and mid-way last year, here, bring your lunch. We'll be havin' a ball.




Seems there are reportedly about 4,000,000 hoglets in Texas



lots more wood and WAM's in the gunsafe.



and more on the way.

Best,

GWB

G,

I'll feign my "surprise",that your sharing "all" your Reloading "experience" has come to a closure. Too bad,because that schit was especially [bleep] hilarious! Fascinating to me,that so many clueless [bleep] wish to brag upon how incredibly slow they "learn". The Geriatric Jeff-O "Learning" Curve is poignantly poetic. Laffin'!

Now you wish to reiterate your being a Turd in a punch bowl and thatcha' giggle when you bite the bubbles?!?

Compelling,as always.

Laffin'!

You'll always do better taking notes and applying same.

Hint.

B,

as always, I appreciate your words of encouragement and support.


I've taken a note or two. That is a fact.




Loaded for a chambering or two











hunted a few places

[img]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/glenn1221/latestgunstuff/DSC04121.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/glenn1221/latestgunstuff/DSCN2406-1.jpg[/img]

and killed a few critters

[img]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/glenn1221/latestgunstuff/wtdbv6.jpg[/img]




and unlike some................... I'll never know it all.




But that's OK too.



Anyway, that's how I see it from Texas


[img]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/glenn1221/TexasViews/IMG_07961_zpsfbdf6c74.jpg[/img]




Best,

GWB

You's preachin' to the choir. You usually don't miss much but I did say 3k *+* for squirting 62's for those that are slow outta the gate, while giving the 62X option for those that aren't equally skilled in the art and 'smithing with a dremel, hammer and screwdriver to achieve 75 'Max bliss.... *grin*

Boxer,

Could you give a quick tutorial on mag mod for a 223 Tucky?

J

For kids, wife, and you... plus deer at 200y or less seems like a 223 would be an absolute blast. Wouldn't even worry about the 75gr AMAX, yet. Deal with that later.

Like this idea myself. Even saw some 223 cat-fart loads in the Hodgdon manual. Not sure how accurate, but would be a heck of a way to get the kids going if jumping from rimfire to centerfire is too much. And, in the same rifle they'll shoot the real loads. Probably just need a few to make the transition.

Had a Salvage in 243 with milk-jug stock that I bought just for the action. Before dismantling it, I shot a few boxes for why-not. Was actually surprised by how much recoil it had! Was expecting less, much less. Not a heavy kicker of course, but more obnoxious that I thought it would be with factory ammo. Had a lightweight 300 Win Mag fetish at that time so I was not recoil shy either.

I think that ~6.25lb Salvage 243 would be too much for many smaller kids and probably many women especially from prone or in volume. Even if it weren't, I don't see how anyone could argue that they'd not shoot more in 223. Once my boys are old enough, I want them shooting buckets of 223. Not just 10 or 20 rounds of 243.

A 243 Kimber will be much nicer than that Salvage by a mile, but it will still be over 1-lb. lighter. A 223 just seems to make more sense for what you want/need.

Jason

or you could throw a 260 Rem. in the mix.



My grandson Jacob on his 12th birthday with his first deer. He used my Kimber Montana in 260 Rem., 120 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip.

Best,

GWB

Gee,

I don't think they offer the 260 anymore.

J

You're prolly right.

BTDT on Kimbers. Owned 7, 4 wood stocked classics and 3 Montanas IIRC. Zero now, so I don't really keep up with Kimber anymore.

Might find one pre-enjoyed though if that chambering was an option.

Best,

GWB

they don't

Hey Gee, what's the scope on that Kimber? I know it's a Leupold, but that's all I can tell. Sort of looks like my 2.5-8x36.

Mike

Mike,

a pair of 260's.


Kimber montana in 260 Rem.
Sako 75 varmint, w/ set trigger in 260 Rem

I figured at the time, what on wouldn't do, the other would.

And yes that scope was a 2.5 x 8 Leupold.

A light rifle, most likely used @ 200 yds and under for hogs, deer and turkey, so 8x should be sufficient.


Best,

GWB

Yea, I might wind up with the 223 Montana, but I have a Colt 6720 that weighs 6 lbs 0.36 ounces without the scope and mount. Yea, the Kimber would be nearly a pound lighter but the Colt fits the wife and kids well with stock all in, and the weight is distributed well for weak arms to hold. It also has a very nice Geissele trigger and 7 twist to play with.

243 sounds nice with lighter bullets in the 80's. A little more umph than the 223 if I'm not mistaken, but then if the Montana 223 shoots the heavies well, there isn't really that much difference in bullet weight, thus my conundrum.

I also own a very nice 243 Sako L579 Deluxe, which made me think about the Kimber in 7mm-08 or even possibly 308, but I don't want to wind up with so much recoil that no one will shoot it except me and I won't even find it pleasant.

G,

Why did you get rid of all the Kimbers?

Clark,

You seem like you're in a panic. Kimber to Tikkler, back to Kimber. Slow down dude !

Your Colt is 7-twist but you still got mag limits. And they don't carry as well as a Montucky, at least to me.

Low recoil, high volume shooting, extreme familiarity with rifle (and load) all lead to stacking of bullets from various shooting positions. If not, then repeat until the kinks are ironed out. But low recoil makes this easier.

If the wife and kids don't get the hang of shooting a lightweight-08 (243, 260, 7-08, 308), you'll have bruised shoulders, flinching brains, and a family that don't want to shoot. Then what? Let the shoulders heal, fix the flinch (have fun with that!), and get a 223 .

You're only shooting deer. And deer at 200 yards and less. I wouldn't get too wrapped up in power or "umph", or the 75gr AMAX which is a good bullet for longer ranges. Shoot another bullet in the Kimber, for now.

I'd worry more about getting the wife and kids to shoot bucket loads of ammo so they have extreme confidence in the rifle, load, and their abilities. Make the family full of dead-eye centerfire shooters and they'll put the bullets on the deer. Unless you guys are all naturals at shooting a centerfire, practice will be your friend and recoil affects everyone whether they admit it or not.

There, I think I just convinced myself to get a 223 for our boys .

Jason

Gee: Nice. I put that same Leupold on my M70 7x57. It's perfect balance for that gun, not too big, not too small.

I don't want to hijack the thread, so back to the OP's question: .243 or 7-08?

Thanks Jason. I'm not really as panicky as I sound. I'm just nearly obsessive compulsive about details and options. I'm bad to research a decision to death. Still going to be a little while before I buy, but I "MUST" explore all my options.LOL

The photo essay was done did a few years back here abouts. You'll have to do your own Google-fu to find the appropriate thread. Happy hunting....

Except now it's evolved to 243 VS 223.LOL

And don't forget the .260!!

Although I did throw in the 7x57 just to see if we could raise Ingwe to the bait.

What's the old song, That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

I realize this is purely subjective, but my experience with Kimbers is kinda like a roll of the dice. Don't always know what your gonna get. With Sakos and Coopers, I've not had that problem.

When Kimber first came out with the short mags, 300 WSM was first.

I picked out an absolutely exquisite Classic in 300 WSM. Did my standard barrel break in. It was finicky from the start.IIRC the only bullet I could get to group consistently was the 180 gr. Nosler Partiton, which was no problem as I like Nosler. Even with the partitions, it was an 1.5" at 100 yd. rifle. I took it with me on a hunt at the lease I was on at the time. Spent the weekend there by myself. Would go up on Thursday and stay through Tuesday. Monday morning that trip I was sitting in a ground blind. It was approaching 11 AM as I recall. I was getting antsy as I'd been there since about an hour before daybreak. I'm getting ready to pack up when I see motion in the foreground. I immediately bring up the binocs and lay eyes on the best deer I've ever seen in my life strolling straight toward me. He's probably 200 yds, moving through the trees my way. I get ready and watch him to about 120 yds. I whistle and he stops. I fire. He stands there. I eject the empty and fire again. He's still standing but getting antsy. So I fire again. This time he turns and trots off. Mind you I hear no whop of the bullet, don't see him flinch. Nothing. So I look for blood for about two hours and don't see a drop. Bummer.

Later that afternoon I'm heading to a spot at the back of the ranch about two miles away. I'm on my four wheeler and go down in to a draw and back up. After I top the draw I come face to face with a fine mature 8 point buck. He don't spook, he just keeps walking toward an opening in the brush 30 yds. or so away. I have the rifle slung on my back. I never carry a rifle with a round in the chamber. I unsling the rifle, go to chamber a round and it pops out and falls o the dirt. I try a second time and this time the two remaining cartridges pop up and out. Meantime the buck slips into the Juniper. Two fine shooters missed in one day. If I hadn't paid $1300 for the rifle and about $500 for the scope I'd have wrapped it around the nearest tree I was so pissed. When I got back to town I traded in on a Remington 700 C grade in 270 Win. Not only had I missed 3 shots off a rest at 120 yds, but it had misfed or I had short stroked. Whatever, I figured the rifle had bad JuJu.

Classic #2. About two months after I bought Classic number 1 I purchased a Kimber in 270 WSM. It had pretter wood than the first. I figured what the hey, the problem with the first shouldn't keep me from enjoying this Kimber. Well once again I was sitting in a 4'x 4' enclosed blind at the junction of two power line right of ways. I had a shot on a buck about 120 yds. I drew a bead and squeezed. Click, but no boom. I thought what the heck. I know I put a shell in the chamber. I pull the rifle inside the blind, set the stock on the floor, hold it out almost at arms lenght to cycle the bolt. When I got to lift the bolt handle, the rifle fires, putting a hole in the roof and almost knocking me out with the blast, concussion and decibels. Freaked me smooth out. The deer ran off and I went back to camp once I cleaned out my shorts and regained my composure. When I got back I tried firing it off the bench and the same thing happened. So I took it back to where I'd bought it and asked them to send it back to the manufacturer. I sure didn't want some unsuspecting person to own that rifle.

The other classics and Montanas I liked, and had no mechanical problems with. I don't remember any of them being sub inch at 100 shooters though.

I had the Montanas in 260 Rem, 308 Win. and 325 WSM.

The 260 I bought new and loved it. However I had a fellow that I knew that had one and wanted to have its match for his son. He made me an offer I could not refuse.
The others were pretty much the same. I bought them at a price where I could develop loads, shoot and take game with them and turn for a profit. I figure its hard to lose by making a profit.

The 325 WSM Montana was a fine shooter also, but when Nosler came out with their Model 48 in the Custom Sporter I grabbed that and have not looked back. I've an illuminated Leupold on it and it has become my favorite dark-thirty hog thumper.

I sold the Montana.

I had owned numerous Sakos before I purchased my first Kimber. About this same time I became serious about collecting Coopers. Coopers were mainly single shot models 21, 22 and 38 at the time.However, for the type of hunting I do, a repeater is not necessary. I could buy the Coopers at about 60% of MSRP, enjoy them and get out with a profit if I so desired. I could not do that with Kimbers, and for my money the Coopers had better fit, finish, triggers, were a ton more accurate, and were consistently good to go. I'd say out of 40 rifles between Cooper and Sako I've had one bad Sako, and it was a manufacturing defect peculiar to that run of chambers.

Best,

GWB

Buy pre-enjoyed at a value, then if you find you've made a mistake, blow it out and go on to the next one. You'll lose very little money if any at all.
I kinda assuage my guilt should I lose money on a deal by asking myself, how much do I spend taking the wife and kids and thier wives and kids to dinner.
Usually perks me up to think how much more thrifty it is to lose money on a rifle (which don' happen often).

Best,


GWB

You can look at the recent thread asking what has been your experience with the 243 to see that it pretty consistently shoots well. and if I was going to shoot varmints as well as deer that is probably the way I'd go.

However my buddy's 7mm-08 shoots pretty well with little fuss too so to answer the question as you posed it above I would say No. You will probably see as much variation or finicky tendencies from rifle to rifle as you will between the two cartridges you mention unless you are talking a bench rail gun then you might see a minute difference and as to which of the two would win I have no idea, but in a sporter weight rifle No.


I was just reviewing this thread and missed it the first pass that you already have a 243 and 223. In that case IMHO it would be 7mm08 all the way.

G,

Schit stacked high,is still a stack of schit.

You crack me the [bleep] up with your Stupidity and utter cluelessness...which in fairness,is very impressive. Congratulations?!?

Laffin'!










'gant,

I like my 75's at 3150 and 62's at 3400fps,when talking a 21" .378" boltface.

Still hearing good thangs,about a Montucky launched 75A-Max kiss.










4th,

Slide magbox shim rearward to allow kisstitude COAL and it's land chasin'. Affix same into position,shorten bolt stop and rock on.

For Artistic Flair...flare the fore section of the ejection port,for Style Points.

Farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr from being "daunting".

Hint.










'Clark,

Again,the 6720 is an EPIC Goat [bleep] compared to a Montucky. The 1-7" is moot,due mag constraints...unless you've an affinity for single-shot Gas Guns. I do not. The Geissle is a Goat [bleep],compared to a Montucky trigger...not even in the same Universe. Cheer up,I've prolly got lotsa Gas Guns,so am afforded the luxury of not being forced to guess.

The Montucky 223 is soooooooooo your Huckleberry.

Re-Hint.

Hint.

You ain't payin' much attention.

Hint-hint.

Hint.

You've been led to water...and I'm hopin' you don't drink.(grin)










'eye,

The more dots connected,the better things get.

It's ALL about twist rate,throat geometry and COAL latitude...simply because boolits matter more than headstamps. Connect them dots and conjoin fun and you've a Montucky 223.

Hint.

Spent primers are THE Supreme Tutorial and everyone fabricates reasons not to shoot,which admittedly cracks me the [bleep] up.

Funny how it actually works.

tahr-nation there B,


don't sugar coat it.


Tell me what ya' really think.

and in keeping with the topic, taken with the fact of how much you like wood stocked rifles (even with no WAMs)





a nice lil' b-b-que sized porker and a 243 Winchester sptitting 90 gr. Accubonds.

Squeeze it EZ there bra'

GWB

G,

I wasn't musing supposition,just stating simple fact(s).

One can never tell if a Texan is bitching or bragging,because their best is soooooo [bleep] shy of the mark.

I very much enjoy the Haybale & Crockett affairs from The Golf Cart Gang and it only gets better when you stupid [bleep] really pull out the stops and start talking about rifles,boolits,glass and other "particulars". You "hard chargers" are a [bleep] riot,with your daring "exploits" of The Barbed Wire Chronicles!

You couldn't knock the new offa used pair of boots.

I'm crying I'm laughing so hard! Bless your heart,for being oblivious to the inherent hilarity.

Just oh sooooooooooooo [bleep] WOW!

Just depends on one's perceptions.



The tops on these are at least 75 years old.




while these are almost new.


and these.........




Quien Sabe?

Best,

GWB

I like that Randall�.the Crocs�not so much�.

Men secure in their manhood wear Crocs and shoot 270's.

I shoot .270's and I don't even own crocs and never will!

You're the poorer!

Maybe.

In the backcountry, there's none that's more comfortable around camp...

and those that are stupid enough to go fox callin' in August when its 104 degrees in the shade at 6:30 pm.





Trick is, when its hot like that, don't bathe or shower for three or four days, and the hogs come runnin'. They think you're one of their long lost cousins.



Best,

GWB

It doesn't get more "secure in manhood" than posting that on the intranet. Or, you may just be an exhibitionist

Brad,

Posting here keeps me out of the bars and off the streets,

it's all good.



besides, we can't all be tall and good lookin' like ol' Stick

Best

GWB

I have Kimber 84M's in both the 243 and 7-08 along with other cartridges.

Both the 243 and 7-08 are accurate and easy to deal with.

The 243 is better for off season varmint hunting.

GFY

Nurses wear Croc's, G', you moonlight???

Not so much these days, now I'm saved, shaved and well behaved, but there was a time...........



Saw Alvin Lee and 10 years after around 1970 or 71 in Houston, Texas at a place call the "Catacombs". I was in a mind altered state and he was wearin' clogs. Went out and got me a pair the next day at Pier 1 IIRC.

I've worn clogs and now crocs ever since.

Best,

GWB

Given the plethora of variables above, I would proffer that the discerning reader might find one constant in the equation, and it's likely not a Kimber.

There might be 'nother clue here too.



Gee Wiz....

Sir,
another rifle another tale.......

Being a junk man at heart, I am always pickin' through other folks used items. Can't help it.
I picked up this action about 10 years ago. Never did any thing with it. The price was right and ya never can tell!




Sako S491 action

A couple years after I picked up the Sako action, a fellow had a used Richards Microfit thumbhole stock for sale. Turns out it just happened to be glass bedded for a Sako S491 action, once again, the price was right. Couldn't resist.

Fast forward to a year or so ago when I started postin' on 24hour consitently, As stated above, I'm pretty comfortable in my own skin, but what with all the wankers here and their fast twist Ackleys, it made me feel like a dwarf at Chippendale's. My equipment just wasn't cuttin' it.

So I got the hankerin' for a small caliber chambering with a fast twist barrel. Turns out a friend had a 1 in 8" twist Shilen Select Match stainless barrel layin' around his shop. Even had a 223 AI reamer and a Vais brake. I guess gunsmiths are like barbers. I told him I wanted to build a walking varminter, 22" barrel with a contour like a Remmy LVSF. You see what I got. LOL

Well, a few dollars traded hands, I pulled out an old scope I'd basically gotten free from another deal and tossed them into a feed barrel and rolled it down a hill at the lease. When I pulled the lid, dang if a Spare Parts Rifle didn't pop out.






Sako S491 action, Richards laminate thumbhole stock. Twenty-six inch Shilen Select Match Barrel, Vais Brake, chambered for 223 AI, Burris 8 x 32 Signature Scope.

But, it makes an impression on critters........





and shoots 36 gr. thru 82 grainers pretty much to the same point of impact and you can see the hit.

[img]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/glenn1221/group%20pix/IMG_69691_zps323142ae.jpg[/img]

So, I guess I can slum the heavy barrel and the muzzle brake.


Best,


GWB

Ya'll need to lay off the crocs...

G',

It remains a shame,that you are devoid any inkling to your impressive cluelessness.

But it do make for EPIC [bleep] hilarity! Laffin'!

One could spin you (1) revolution atop a haybale and you wouldn't be able to find your way back to the Golf Cart.

Bless your heart.










Brad,

Say a leetle sumptin' more about Burger King and gettin' wayyyyy out there via KOA Campground(s).

You poor poor stupid [bleep].

Laffin'!










'99,

Who dressed you this morning and chewed your food for you?

Laffin'!










'CUBIC,

Don't be so harsh,as I rather enjoy the harrowing "Adventures" of The Do Nothing Gang and the fascinating "particulars" of the wares they put to "use".

Saturday Night Live don't have schit half this funny and these poor stupid [bleep] are doing their best,not to be.(grin)

[bleep] awesome +P+!

So back on track!

RH Clark what did you decide to buy? If your over near Atlanta anytime soon you can shoot my whiney do nothing select classic Roberts.

geedub, You gots lotsa cool toys!

'yp,

The train has never left the tracks. Hint.

That Bob looks to have really raised hell with things and is obviously a sage Old War Horse.

Laffin'!

Never have seen a Conquest...expound a bit there too and perhaps correlate it's grandeur in extrapolation to the rest of the platform.

Dare ya.

Laffin'!









'head,

Stupidity ain't a "toy"...it's a plight.

Marked difference there.

Hint.

Thanks for the offer my friend. I may take you up on it. Still exploring the possibilities but the decision may be made by availability when I get ready to buy. Likely be a little later this summer.

Funny stuff!

You'd think someone woulda been out bangin' Krunchentickers in extrapolation to a Montucky or two,if only to see just WTF do what and more importantly why.

Mebbe some day,someone will...as I'd be curious to hear them findings.




You just know a 25 has got whoop a 6mm's ass too...especially when the 25 hull is sooooo much longer and hangin' in a like length action.

Sucks that a lowly 105 poly-tipped 6mm,is longer than a poly-tipped 25 115-grainer. Real bummer there,especially because the case is shorter too. Laffin'!



These Clueless Dumbfhukkers have me at a distinct disadvantage,because I don't shoot nearly as much as they do and simply a whole [bleep] bunch more than they could begin to [bleep] fathom.

You'll haveta' pardon my being afforded the luxury,of not being forced to guess. Though in fairness,I reckon I'll never tire of the inherent hilarity of The Do Nothing Gang doing their best.

Bless their hearts.

DON'T drink the water.

Laffin'!

Lord luv ya B'.

Some might soliloquize,



why does ol B try to turn every thread into a Goatphuck,



but not Gdub.


I've heard you could follow sign but you musta missed some markers.

I've been round many a bale a hay, some round some rectangle stacked high and wide.



So, being a fellow that is generally willing to steer the wayward back on the true path, the following observations would be in order.

Don't know about the north pole or Alaska, but here, a compass or a GPS work just fine.



Seem's like somebody's motto was "be prepared" or was it "proper preparation prevents poor performance".

Anyway, you get the point.

Heck, even equipped with only roll of flagging tape, a fellow can pretty much negotiate his way around a hay bale or a "petting zoo"

and as to a "golf cart".

at night when following a blood trail,



leave the motor running and lights on and one can venture out a half mile or so and find his way back in the dark.



A golf cart/ATV, can come in pretty handy when it comes to going hither and yon, and totin' stuff.




Go where a truck can't. Not near as much care required as for a horse, mule or llama.




sometimes even with a 7mm-08

[img]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/glenn1221/latestgunstuff/IMG_0789.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/glenn1221/latestgunstuff/DSCN7652.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/glenn1221/DSC02297-1.jpg[/img]

Best,


GWB

G,

The Texas version of everything...is simply a [bleep] riot!

There ain't no slightin' that your incredible ineptitude,do run an amazing constant. Laffin'!

Here's to 90PSI body cavities and swelterin' steaks drum tight in the sun...as you try and dupe yourself into "thinking" you've a first [bleep] clue about anything,other than bitin' bubbles in the 'tub.

Bless your heart,because your best is just oh so [bleep] amazingly shy of the mark.

Laffin'!

Boxer
In your first post on this thread you said 308 or 223. Can the 308 Montana be loaded down to kid recoil levels and still retain good accuracy and effectiveness when the shot will likely be around 100 yards or even less? If it can be then it might be the answer. I can handle the recoil fine and the kids and wife would only use it occasionally.

Not Boxer, but I used to shoot mine with the 130 TSX at 300 Savage velocities and it was a pu$$y cat.

RHC,

also not Boxer, but my response will not be in code or Bushelerspeak.

As you do not reload, you might google "managed recoil loads for 308 winchester"


Should you choose to do so, something like this may pop up.........

www.google.com/search?q=managed+recoil+loads+for+308+Winchester&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb

Best,

GWB

Thanks guys. I looked enough to know there were a bunch of reduced loads for a 308 but wondered if any of the lighter ones made recoil feel equivalent to 243 levels. I do appreciate the straight talk and polite attitude.

Also wondered if such loads would work well in the Montana 308 for short range deer. I will be reloading as soon as I acquire the space, via a shop.

RCH,

One of the best hunting investments you'll ever make is buying a good rifle and scope for your wife and/or kids.

As B- often says rightly, start at the start.

In this case, that would be buy them something that fits them, not you.

Rifle fit has a great influence on felt recoil.

They likely will need a shorter rifle. Make sure the scope is positioned and adjusted for them, not you, to be comfortable. The investment will be paid back many times over.

And yes, the 308 lower power loads will kill things very dead, as will 243 and 223.

Shot placement trumps power.

Totally agree. That's why I bought this.




The stock fits the young ones all the way in , and the wife one notch in. I put a very nice trigger in it and scope on it. This Kimber will not be a wife and kid gun. I just thought it would be nice if I buy something that they can handle recoil wise if they want to carry such a light rifle. The one complaint my daughter has of any gun is the weight. If I run up on a second stock fine, but I won't be cutting this one down.

The Chuck Hawks article from the link above states that both Federal and Remington mangaged recoil loadings claim a 50% recoil reduction.

Deer are not really that hard to kill. I've killed them with a 40 gr. v-max out of a tactical 20 all the way through a 45-70 and 400 gr bullet.
Shoot them in the CNS or neck they go down. Break down both shoulders, they go down. Spine-shoot them, they go down. Heart or lungs, 100 yds or so. Gut shot, all bets are off. I use larger calibers as I'm always on the lookout for hoglets and it is very thick where I hunt. I want them DRT if at all possible.


Another thought. If you are worried about recoil. Get a led-sled and about 40 lbs of shot or weights.



Let your wife or kids practice off the bench shooting off the led sled. Make sure they wear ear muffs at least and perhaps foam ear plugs plus ear muffs. Let them get in some trigger time.

With the weights on the led sled, the recoil will be insignificant, and with the ear muffs/plugs, the noise should not be a factor either. This should help prevent them from developing a "flinch". To check, hand them an unloaded rifle (but don't let them know it's not loaded) and watch to see whether they are squeezing or jerking the trigger.

With ear muffs, recoil management and trigger time, when they do shoot at game, their blood will be up, they will be excited and the instinct borne of practices will pay off. They won't even notice the recoil of the one shot.

Good luck on whatever you decide.

Best,

GWB

PS: That Sako is chambered for the 308 Winchester, but I'm running 46.5 gr. of Varget, 150 gr. Nosler Ballistic tips for practice and 150 gr. Accubonds for real, Lapua Brass, Federal 210 M primers and 2.800 COAL for about 2,800 fps., which is not a reduced load, but is a killer.

trailboss+lead

Rick

Don't believe that RHC is reloading yet.

Best,

GWB

I see

Good time to start with above. Hard to screw up. Dangerous with expertise from other forms of reduced.

10/4 on that.

Seafire who posts here does a lot with reduced power loading.

I don't mess with reduced power/fast powder loads

Best,

GWB

'Clark,

Pullin' spark plugs ain't of ANY interest to me...though you are certainly welcome to the folly.

I cited 223 and 308 for simplistics reasons,which was stated plainly,due the fact you don't Reload. The support of both chamberings in Factory Form,is in non-lineal fashion and that'd be a good thing as such concessions go.

Take the Brood to the Store,let 'em Test Drive a Montucky and get back to me on them very obvious "findings".

More water for you to not drink.(grin)










'Walter,

Pass the 223,good boolits and hold ALL the Fluff.

You get your cake and eat it too.

Hint.










'bird,

Just why in the [bleep] folks are in sucha hurry to remove the Fun Quotient,do reliably astound me. I reckon I'll never savvy Spark Plug Pullin' Goat [bleep],when one can reduce costs,noise,recoil and performance,while banking extry rounds in the belly to boot. This schit cracks me the [bleep] up!

Fun schit gets shot and schit that gets shot builds proficiency and proficiency is how one reliably arranges "luck".

Hilarious Thread!










G',

If you gotta resort to tricking the Bride and the Brood,you are ONLY tricking yourself. Hint.

The Texas version of everything is [bleep] hilarious!

Doubly so,when you go to citing Shefire as anything but a Bat Schit Crazy Do Nothing Clueless Kchunt.

Bless your heart.










rick',

You're mean.

Laffin'!

No, not yet, but this whole thread was designed to help me pick the right Montana for when I am reloading. My original question was to determine if any caliber Montana lent it's self to better accuracy via mag box length, throat length, twist rates, and other such parameters that reloaders are knowledgeable about.

It started as 243 VS 7-08 and delved into the 223 per Boxers recommendations, and now the possibility of the 308 which fits my needs very well but I would also like something with recoil low enough that the wife and kids won't completely shun it. There is really no need for magnums or long range in my neck of the woods anyway. Shots are likely to be in wooded areas and under 100 yards , with the exception of a rare clear cut or power line 200 yard shot.

900fps with 200 lead does nice on med size @ smidge over 100 until gravity. Feels about a 22kwasp

You could always go to harbor freight and invest in an inexpensive caliper and then go to your favorite gun store and measure the different OAL's of various factory fodder. Traditional cup and core bullets are shorter than the mono-metals and plastic tipped bullets. I've had excellent luck with Sierras in the traditional cup and core. I think you will find that "kissing the lands" is going to be the least of your worries in regards to accuracy out of a factory chamber at 100 yards. If you don't even get better than two inch groups, that will kill deer at 100 yds. Best measure is where the first shot out of a cold barrel will impact. Chances are you'll not get more than one shot off on game.

Best,

GWB

You want to be sober while working reduced load. Air space can remove your head from shoulders. Trail fills the case. RHC just be aware!

B-, Yep.

B,

With your mindset and attitude, I can see as it would be trickery,

Not so here.



This un' started followin' me at six. We still hunt together.

He is now 32.

No tricks, just a lot of love, respect, camraderie and good times.

Comprende?

GWB

G',

You said:

"Let your wife or kids practice off the bench shooting off the led sled. Make sure they wear ear muffs at least and perhaps foam ear plugs plus ear muffs. Let them get in some trigger time.

With the weights on the led sled, the recoil will be insignificant, and with the ear muffs/plugs, the noise should not be a factor either. This should help prevent them from developing a "flinch". To check, hand them an unloaded rifle (but don't let them know it's not loaded) and watch to see whether they are squeezing or jerking the trigger.

With ear muffs, recoil management and trigger time, when they do shoot at game, their blood will be up, they will be excited and the instinct borne of practices will pay off. They won't even notice the recoil of the one shot."


The Texas version of everything,is simply [bleep] hilarious. Bless your heart.

You poor poor stupid [bleep] are a riot!

Yes sir, and ditto my previous reply.


and its evident you don't "comprende"

Too bad, so sad.

GWB

G',

I'll feign my "surprise",that the best building blocks you can proffer,are based upon deception. Congratulations?!?

The Texas version of everything,is [bleep] hilarious!

Bless your heart.

Clark,

What happened to the 243 and 7-08? I could see the 223 appeal, but what is the allure of the 308 now?

Jason

Likely just a rabbit trail to be explored before getting back on track. I'm still heavy between the 243 and 223. Availability may win the race when I'm ready to run. I can't see the 243 not doing everything I want and the 223 might do it just as well with less recoil and powder if the rifle shoots the heavies well and I can easily do any mods needed for the heavies.

This just seems right for a .243 and tsx/ttsx...bet the 80 grn factory Barnes ammo would do about an inch or less at 100 yards. Or factory 95 grn Winchester ballistic tips. I have used both out to 200 yards and none run farther than 40 yards-most drop within 20 feet.

Have killed alotta 400yd+ Venison with .378" boltfaces and have never seen one go that far.

'Course I'm in da bidness of breaking bone,as I don't shoot to be "nice". Meat gets shot in the ear,Booners get broked shoulders.

Noone has more 243 Love than I,but for applications cited,it's a Montucky 223 Show.

I think the way to start kids shooting is to start them at about 7 or 8 years of age with a single shot 10 gauge shotgun with three and a half inch slug load. That way, you can find out if they are really really serious about wanting to shoot, and the lack of sights makes them into good stalkers. The recoil and price of ammo will teach them not to waste ammo. If they don't wimp out, at about age 15 let them have a recoil pad.
Mistake a lot of people make when training new shooters is to let them wear ear protection. This is the age when you need to toughen them up to loud noises.

Seems to be a no-brainer that adds up right proper:

.223 Montana + .223 Black Rifle + copious H335 + .223 components + Dillon RL550B = Family FUN!

Unless you can't add.... *grin*

If I am pulling the trigger, a .223 if a fine choice. But I've seen them run several hundred yards with a broken shoulder from a .223. I have also seen them go down like lighting struck with a .223. I don't do head/neck shots.

If I have a kiddo pulling the trigger I prefer a little more margin for error, because a lot of times the error is there. An 80 grn ttsx from a .243 on southern whitetails under 200 yards with most shots about 100 yards is ideal in my book. Especially for youth/recoil sensitive shooters...

My experience with several kids has convinced me of the exact opposite conclusion. For a kiddo that's relatively new to shooting and hunting, I prefer a .223 in their hands.

I've seen a handful of kids with limited exposure, and ample time behind a trigger intimidated by a .243

Put a kid behind a .22lr and a .223 and they'll gladly shoot till there's no more ammunition. They learn good shooting habits (and safety of course) and have absolutely no fear in the rifles muzzle blast and recoil (which is almost non-existent). With the amount of time yanking triggers, it's no biggie for them to make clean ethical kills with a .223 loaded with an appropriate bullet.

My own kids, nephews, and friends kiddo's have over the years killed piles of deer, exotics, and feral hogs with the lowly .223 without an issue.

Another one of my nephews and a friends son are just now cutting their shooting/hunting teeth on a .223 Rem I set up specifically for youngsters. This weekend saw them popping 62gr. TSX and even .22lr out to 200 yards from sticks and hunting positions.

Their ear to ear grin is down right infectious. No doubt both will have no issue killing a deer or three this coming Fall.

yeah, that's the ticket

knock the bejeezus out of 'em.



I'm sure they say, thank you sir, may I have another.

are you and B buds? LOL

or do you just have a dry sense of humor?

GWB

I carried my 9 year old on a youth dove hunt this year. Her gun was a very light weight single barrel 20 gauge. I actually didn't think she would be shooting since she had said she just wanted to go along and retrieve birds and sit with me in the field but I carried a gun for her anyway.

After several birds, she says, "Dad, I want to shoot." So I set her up and when the next bird came by she stood up from her chair and fired one off. The blast sat her back down and knocked her hat off. I expected that to be the end but she stood up and with a huge grin said, "Dad, that was awesome!" That little bugger shot a whole box of shells that day and she said that she had the best time she had ever had hunting. She wasn't bothered by the recoil at all, even though I considered that old single barrel a kicker.

Well what the hey,



how 'bout 458 Lott fer the lil' lady.

In my experience you can sneak up on one quite cheap and for the most part the barrells ain't been shot out. LOL

Best,

GWB

I was taught the value of the first shot by a sheridan .20 pellet gun.

In the early 60's, Sheridan silver Streaks were usually worshipped from afar. Guys that had those in our neighborhood were ultimately cool. Daisy pumps here, if we were lucky.

Good on ya pak.

Best,

GWB

Royce,

I'm with you,in that this schit is VERY funny...especially when the Texans do their best.(grin)

Much to be said for settin' 'em up for success,via Good Riggin' slated to the task(s) and comfortably within their Fun Factor. I getta kick outta The Spark Plug Pulling Deception Ruse,seemingly in vogue with the Haybale & Crockett crowd. MUCH to be said for familiarity with a chambering/boolit,due Grintitude and the lotsa empty brass.

Let a kid go MPAJ with a Montucky 223/6x42 and let 'em steal the show at the 400yd+ line on clay birds,if only as an initial confidence boost.

Venison ain't got a [bleep] chance...by design.










'gant,

It do get nice,when they can load their own.(grin)










lubbock',

Error is minimized via proficiency and proficiency is a byproduct of trigger time and Fun connects all them dots. Hint.

The greatest connect percentages ain't realized,via Deception...they're realized by a genuine hankerin' to make empties. Nothing fuels that fire like minimal recoil,minimal blast,eerie Precision and nice BC's at nice speeds.

'Course it's easy for me to say,I got it all.

Hint.











FO,

Good boolits,in good places...reliably do great thangs.

Killing is the easiest part of any Hunt to control and why in the [bleep] these ignorant dumbfhukks go outta their way to [bleep] easy schit up,is beyond me?!?

Though I do dig the humor!










'Clark,

Making noise with a Scattergun,is an issue far separate from punchin' Tags.

Hint.










pak,

There's several exceedingly WELL used RWS Springers in the house and MPAJ POA/POI braggin' rights...are held in the highest esteem. One has LOP lopped to 11.5" or so. Easy to connect dots,with a platform that'll yield good Precision,via rather good trigger.

Let 'em dump/hold 600yd dope in a 22LR Anschutz and punching Tags is all things but "difficult".(grin)

Never will savvy why folks is in such a hurry,to pawn Schit Riggin' off on the Duffers?!?

My Sheridan was a 22,my Cousin's a 5mm and them forays never hurt results.(grin)

have no idear why folks resist this notion so steadfastly. the rule is just as applicable to grownup males as it is to the "frail" women and kids

'Clark,

Making noise with a Scattergun,is an issue far separate from punchin' Tags.

Hint.

Absolutely. Just sharing a little.
I am leaning toward the 223 for all the reasons you are saying. I know you favor the Amax but what are some other good choices supposing mine doesn't want to shoot them? I would guess the 62 Barnes but what else in the world of scarce components and ammo?

'6,

Stupid [bleep],is always gonna do stupid schit...which is of course a hilarious constant.

I've rolled miles of video footage with the sound off,so as to let folks guess the platform that dealt the terminal affects and that is usually purty funny on the average and often outright hilarious.(grin)

You cain't miss something with a catridge/boolit "big enough",to turn it into a hit. That reality [bleep] alotta Window Lickers up! I can only lead 'em to water,I cain't make 'em drink.

A sub 6lb 1000yd+ capable rifle,of very minimal recoil and blast...don't take long to warm up to.

Hint.(grin)










'Clark,

Folks are seemingly in a hurry to forget,that these ARE The Good Old Days. There's so many Venison Capable boolits out there,that you'd play hell finding one that weren't.

THE money maker,is always gonna be proficiency,which cain't be begged,borrowed or stolen. Set 'em up,feed the fire,let 'em get good with grins on their faces and start punching Tags.

Really ain't much to it.

Hint.

Clark - WITF makes you think the Montana will fit the wife and kids or they will want to shoot it? Just buy WTF you want. It's PDS.

The same thing could be said about any topic started here. Just buy WTF you want could be the standard answer, and we wouldn't even have to waste any time on here, so my question to you is, why are you?

I'm just talking and weighing ideas with folks who want to talk. It's really no big deal and I will buy WTF I want in the end anyway.

AJD,

You are even more [bleep] Stupid than I suspected and I was padding it heavily.

Laffin'!










'Clark,

You are gonna swipe her Imagination and steal her Pretend and that would be mean.

Laffin'!

Easy peasy, get a 257 Roberts. In a M70 Featherweight though. Kimber Centerfires suck!

50,000,000 unemployed comedians in the world and there ain't no shortage of 'em appearing in this thread. *grin*

Clark-
There be some wise counsel in these 17 pages, if one can separate the meat from the 90 psi paunches. I look forward to the report of your own findings in due course....

Although a 22 caliber is almost never my first choice,.........



left to right, 45 gr. TSX, 53 Gr. TSX, 55 gr. Sierra Spitzer, 60 gr. Nosler Partition,

If your rifle has an 8 twist, then the 64 gr. Nosler bonded core, 68 Gr. Hornady HPBT, 69 Gr. Sierra HPBT, 70 Gr. TSX and 82 Gr. Berger.


Many others out there, and I'm sure others can/will chime in with their favorite 22 caliber projectiles. Should you have the capabilities a CNS shot would pretty much guarantee a dead animal, but used appropriately, these should work. Might have to track, but what the hey, ya pays yo' money and ya takes yo' chances.

Best,
GWB

I can recall no less than 3 little texas deer that took a .223 in the shoulder and it took 3-4 more hours of tracking for them to be recovered-last one was shot at dark, and we tracked him 3-400 yards in the dark-got close enough to hear him breathing but he was in stuff too thick for the flashlight to penetrate so we hunkered down for 1.5 hours before he gave up the ghost. Was lucky that time as the 8yo boy I was guiding that evening didn't get spooked or scared one bit in that thick creek bottom in the dark. That's been my experience with the .223 tsx. As I said, I have also seen my share go down fast with the .223 as well.

I have not had this issue with a well placed .243 bullet.

Now, if I was getting a gun specifically for the kiddos to shoot, 22lr/.223 would be just right for learning to shoot/having fun with. On deer size game I'd prefer a .243 the gun carried to the stand. And I bet when they are in the stand and squeeze one off at a live target they will not mention the felt recoil/muzzle blast.

Having said that, if All the kid has/brings is a .223 I certainly would not refuse them. I'd just stress hard proper shot placement, be prepared to make a f/u shot and bring extra flashlights in case there is a need for extended tracking.

With the 1-9 you can shoot the 62 TSX! It seems to shoot thru deer for me out of a 16 inch 1-7 black gun. Biggest deer I ever shot was with a 62 TSX over tac it ran 25 yards after a shoulder shot at 40 yds.

What bullet?

I'd be more than eager to run the 55 TTSX if I were allowed to take the .223 after deer where I live...

RH Clark,

There are no flies on either the .243 or the 7-08 as far as the cartridges go. That said, if the .223 is legal to hunt deer with in Alabama, I can see no reason to get anything other than the .223 given your parameters (short-ish range, wife and kids to use it, you don't reload, etc.).

The recoil on the .223 is nonexistent. The factory ammunition selections are incredibly broad running from cheap plinking ammunition for trigger time for the wife/kids/you all the way to super premium stuff that will take any game in Alabama you choose to hunt. When you eventually get into reloading, it's an efficient cartridge that is easy to load for and the components are readily available, inexpensive, and amazingly broad in scope.

Again, there is nothing wrong with either the .243 or the 7-08, but given that neither matches the breadth and depth to which the .223 answers the questions you would be asking of that rifle, why do anything other than the .223?

Iggle,

That schit is funny! You trying out to become a Texan?

Laffin'!

If forced to slum a .25cal by mandate today,it'd be a Montucky 25-06.

Hint.










'gant,

Swelterin' Steaks ain't my cup of tea neither...but it do remind me of.....

THIS










G',

You don't "track" broken shoulders...because they's always right where you left 'em.

Hint.

The Texas version of everything,is [bleep] hilarious.



Bless your heart.










'dave,

Wanna see schit run? Don't break any bone.

Hint.

Funny how the bones that bear the most fruit,is the biggest,easiest to hit and has vital organs 'neath 'em to boot.

Funny how it actually works.

75HPBT(5th from far right of above frame) if only for conversation and you'll note the locale of the insertion.



Re-hint.

This schit is [bleep] funny!










'p,

62TSX Krunchenticker Buck.



You boys is gonna talk me into a 223 yet and I'll be leaving the 30-'06 behind.

Laffin'!










Jordan,

I'd happily build a 223AI and have it stamped "30-'06" on the shank,if only to [bleep] with Mall Cops' heads.(grin)











'ager,

You're gonna talk me into a 243 and 7-08.

Tough crowd.

Laffin'!

I'm patienty waiting another Treatise on the Deception Scheme,as that schit was especially [bleep] funny!

Somehow, I suspect that's already happened several times over before I ever even joined the conversation. Those two (and a bunch of others) work and work well. For what the OP opined, however, I can't see how the .223 doesn't fit the profile better and more squarely than the rest.

His dollars, his choice, but in the same situation my call on the matter would be simple.

LOL, I suppose I could carry a few .30-06 cartridges in a pocket, just in case anybody asks

B,

nor with severed vertebrae





325 WSM, 200 gr. Nosler Accubond, 165 yds.







300 H&H, 180gr. Barnes TSX, 165 yds.





and,



"waste not, want not", or so it goes.

Best,

GWB

Cor-Bon 62 grain DPX factory $35.00/20

There's a handful of bullets that will kill deer reliably.

Over the years we've killed game with 64gr. Power Points, 60gr. Partitions, 53gr./55gr./62gr. TSX, 55gr. TBBC, and even the 45gr. Nosler Solid base in a lowly .22 Hornet.

I've never taken game with them, however, I've heard good reports on the 75gr. A-Max. If your rifle will stabilize the bullet, from all accounts it's an excellent choice.

There's also the 69gr. Scenar to consider.

Personally, if not able to utilize the A-Max bullet, my pick would be the 62gr. T/TSX

'ager,

Mebbe I have dabbled 6mm and 284-08's.(grin)

223 by a mile.










Jordan,

Tape the muzzle and who the [bleep] would ever know?!?(grin)










G,

The best way to not waste meat,is to make schit dead and lotsa folks is in a hurry to [bleep] that up.

Meat gets shot in the ear,Booners get shoulders broke.

Pop lungs and schit's gonna RUN.

Hint.










'yp,

CorBon typically puts a little sauce on their wares to boot.

Gonna try me an X boolit some day,as I hear good thangs.




Hey what ever happened to all the 25cal talk?!? One of them Bob's sounds really good.



Laffin'!










FO,

I've shot all that you mention into Venison,along with a lot more that ain't been cited...from Hornet to CHeetah.

Tough to whoop a Montucky 223,as Utility goes. It's a fabulous blend of available COAL,nice throating,S/S construction and a right proper stock,all wrapped in a handy/dandy and well balanced parcel.

Hell,I might even flog on one a bit today,myself.(grin)

Ya know B,

From time to time I get PM�s from folks who comment on how much fun you and I have on these forums. My comment to them is I consider myself fortunate to have such a friend in a far north clime as the Milford. I also tell them if it were not for you I�d prolly not get to share the joys of hunting in Texas near as much as as I do.
You often say you can't figure out whether I'm bragging or complaining. So, no brag, just fact, I�m a kill artist. I�m good at it. In fact I�m so good that the buzzards at the �Petting Zoo� ,as I refrer to my happy hunting grounds, have come to recognize my truck.





And ATV





When they see me coming they tell all their friends and relatives, Gdub�s here,



put on the feed bag �cause we�ll be eatin� high on the hog in just a little while




And a minor complaint.

Just between the two of us, since no one else is watchin�I might just take you to task. After all, what are friends for if they can�t admonish each other from time to time.

In the last year since I�ve been posting here regularly, I�ve probably posted pix of near 100 different critters, that when I drew, I drew blood.

Other than a few dead fish, a couple of basket horned bucks and a couple of bears the only thing I�ve seen evidence of all the stuff you kill is a lot of time and band width.

Luv to see pix and mounts of all the Turkey, grouse, ptarmigan, deer, mule deer, bear, moose, sheep, goats, elk beaver, fox, marten, wolf, lion, wolverine, badger and anything else that inhabit such places as Kansas and Alaska.

Have I been looking at the wrong threads?

I've heard it said, "no pix, it didn't happen"

Just sayin�

Your friend,

GWB

[img]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/glenn1221/may2010onward/notme.jpg[/img]

I can't bring myself to sell my Kimber short bob yet I do find myself carrying the 308 Montana more often, and may wind up with a Montana in 223 as well. The stainless Ruger American compact has a 1-8 twist, which is a temptation. But who knows for $550 bucks?

Gee, some fine photos of some nice game. Very enjoyable... You really put the hurt on those hogs.. We went to Tx. this spring and knocked off a couple young ones.. When we were cutting up the larger of the two, she was 130# dressed, I found a cup and core bullet in the shoulder!! It wasn't festered.. It had just broken the bone.. Happened to see the copper shining when I was cutting it up.. Looked like about a .243 or 25 cal.. Keep the photos coming...

So the consensus is in? 257 Featherweight is it?

Quien Sabe,

but 110 gr. Accubonds out of a 257 Bob AI does for b-b-que sized porkers.







Best,

GWB

Geedub', you sure do show the kills to back up what you say. I'm a bit envious that you get so much trigger time on live animals. Up north we have to shoot paper in the offseason and the offseasons are long. The Texas version of everything seems to be the stuff of hunters dreams. Anyway love all the kill pics and the many rifle pics are always easy on the eyes and good for the soul.

G,

[bleep] hilarious,that you rate being a totally clueless dumbfhukk as anything it ain't. Kudos for proffering enough Imagination and Pretend,to rate driving a Golf Cart in someone else's field as being the pinnacle of "Adventure" and "satisfaction".

Cheer up,I've never had a PM either.



The Texas version of everything,is [bleep] hilarious and here's to your inherent ineptitude,keeping you as the World's Slowest "Learner". Congratulations?!?

Laffin'!










'yp,

Short Bob/Long Bob...don't matter,they's all schit and fraught with heavy concession(s). Funny part is,even you know it. Laffin'!

You'd best give the Montucky 223 lamentation another 20yrs of "hard charging" practice,so you'll be able to at least get it in 1st [bleep] gear.

Laffin'!










'Hunter,

Not all boolits is equal?!?

Wow...who knew?

Laffin'!










Iggle,

In Blued/Walnut,for the win. Muzzlebrake added,for taking it to another level...and the envy of all Window Lickers.

Laffin'!










Dooshmike,

Play your cards right and mebbe G' will mail you a piece of barbed-wire...for posterity. Send her a PM. Laffin'!

You Do Nothing Day Dreaming Kchunts are a [bleep] riot!

B', I see you're up bright and early.

BTW, I think the Roberts is twice the cartridge the .243 is. But not being recoil shy myself I don't bother with either of them.

Dooshmike,

I ain't much fun to try and keep pace with.

Here's to the oblivious hilarity of your "thinking",that you can "think". Funny schit!

The only barometer of evaluation you could provide in the first hand...is what it's like to keep a couch tethered firmly in place,with the perpetual placement of your kchunt.

Congratulations?!?

Laffin'!

Looking forward to today's excuses.





(Addendum: for The Window Licker)

Dooshmike,

The only thing that'd be funnier than the annual hour meter reading of your couch,would be a pic of "all" the primers you "shoot" in the same year. Laffin'!

Sounds like you've really got some upper echelon wares,are steeped in same and really wring some stuff out. My bad.

I'm [bleep] crying I'm laughing soooooooooo hard.

Just...WOW!

I do get a kick out of Boxer thinking eveybody is recoil shy and needs a .223 or .243 to shoot accurately. I started off at age 13 with a .30-06 and it never hampered my shooting. Heck my wife can wring all the accuracy out of my .30-06 that it can give. My stepson killed his first buck at age 15 with an A bolt in .338 Win. mag. and my son has been killing deer with his .270 since he was 13. Recoil never prevented me from making a kill whether it was 10 yards or 300.

Shot placement trumps power.

Reliable shot placement comes from regular practice.

Why is there so much discussion endlessly about rounds, and so little about placement and practice?

It is always interesting to me how women and children drop stacks of deer and feral pigs DRT with 243's, and yet dad's and husbands need a Zombie stomper, which too often results in the need to track it.

Just an observation.

and fwiw - I've not shot deer with a 223, so won't opine one way or the other, but I have shot more than a few with 243/6mm's and they are more than enough with good placement. More power will not overcome poor placement.

I've never found the .270, .308, or .30-06 to be difficult to shoot. I can't understand how so many people fail to master a little recoil? We aren't talking .375 H&H's here. But that is another that I like to shoot. Too many people on here make way too much out of recoil. Why do you link "more power" to "poor placement" anyway? I've got a 7 mag that will shoot a hole in a dime at 100 yards. Poor placement is the least of my concerns with that rifle.

It is an intellesting constant,that them who "do" the least...Whine the most. Stupid [bleep],will always do stupid schit and it only gets funnier when they try to "justify" it.(grin)

I swear to [bleep] god,that these incredibly inept boobs are in a Stupid Contest,to see who can come up with THE dumbest schit. Dooshmike in ALL fairness,is doing rather "well". Laffin'!

The only people who "think" Critters is hard to kill,is them who ain't killed very many Critters and that is yet another intellesting Dichotomy. So I'm VERY much enjoying The Deception Approach and Dooshmike's Rambo Approach,to things that is welllllll beyond simple to reliably arrange.

'Course it's easy for me to say,if only because I got it all.(grin)










Dooshmike,

Knock 'er outta da' park and elaborate on the 7mm Dime Rifle. You know...fodder of preference,glass,mounts,rifle Make/Model,the usually hilarious schit you pull out of your Do Nothing azz. Laffin'! Always was gonna try me a 7mm of some sort and mebbe your keen first hand "experience" and it's "results",will nudge me over the edge. Re-laffin'!

You poor poor AMAZINGLY stupid [bleep].

Wow.








(Yet another Addendum: for The Window Licker)

Dooshmike,

I enjoy you Do Nothing Dumbfhukks Imaginations,almost as much as you do and your Pretend is a [bleep] riot! Now you are a "we",which is also fascinating. I reckon when you "do" as "much" as you,that you need ALL the [bleep] help you can ge?!!? Bless your heart.

I'll feign my "surprise" that 7mm Dime Rifle "particulars" ain't gonna transpire,if only because even someone as [bleep] STUPID as you,knows how [bleep] funny that woulda been. Laffin'!

Perhaps you'll feel a bit more "comfy" in the Groundhog '06's "particulars"?!? Laffin'! Mebbe "tell" me about .375's too,as all of this schit is "new" to me. Re-laffin'!

It remains hilarious,that you are oblivious to your gross ineptitude and rampant Dumbfhukktitude,despite your best efforts not to be. Now Sweetheart...THAT is how humor is defined. Congratulations?!?

The only thing you shoot is your mouth and Imagination,in no [bleep] particular order. That you cain't begin to fathom the magnitude of how far you are in over your pointy head,really is [bleep] amazing!

Here's to your Imagination and to just how BADLY you need it.

So we all have to use the "minimum" gun because that's all it takes to kill an animal? I've shot deer with the 45-70 and .450 Marlin. Why? Because I wanted to. I'm not recoil shy (like Boxer) and I like a gun that let me know it went off. Personally the Hornet, .223, and the .22-250 got sold because I didn't really enjoy shooting them anymore. I don't enjoy shooting the .458 Win mag either. Fun for me is somewhere in the middle and yes I can put a .30-06 bullet in a groundhogs head just as cleanly as I could with the .223. The light kickers are for those who don't get out and shoot. Those who do can work their way up to anything.

If shot placement trumps power, why are all these guys shooting .22 l.r.'s at deer and 22 mag.s for elk?????

Wyo',

Much to your chagrin,many do fill freezers with Rimfires,where they are legal...if only because they reliably do nice thangs. Hell,I growed up gunning Beef in the backyard with same and never not seen it be impressive,as a minimum. Waterborne Caribou Carnage ala Rimfire,is a passionate Sport for many. Hint.

Feel free to wax eloquent upon "power" and "energy",because all of this stuff is "new" to me and I don't get to shoot nearly as "much" as you gals do.

Laffin'!

It's a riot,when you Stupid [bleep] go to outdumbfhukking each other,by obliviously doing your "best".

Wow +P+!










'6,

It got real "unfair",real fast...by 'em bolting together their Imaginations and parlaying their Pretend. Laffin'!

Now the dumbfhukkers are gonna tease me about 22LR's and say mean things about my Savage.



I'd say sumptin' about gunning schit at 600yds with same...but I ain't quite ready top hear the high note.

Laffin'!










(Addendum" for yet another Window Licker)

Wyo',

So now a rifle is an "unfair" "advantage" for "power" and "energy"?!?

You poor poor stupid [bleep].

PLEASE do "tell" me allllllllllllll about "power" and "energy",as you undoubtedly are very "lucky" to have opportunity with some really "cool" chamberings,totally unknowed by me. Muse boolits too,I dare ya'.

Laffin'!

lookout B, they've got you on the ropes!

I am sure "gunning beef in the back yard" is a real test of firearm.. You probably used long rifles too..

Different strokes for different folks I suppose. However, I'm mighty glad of that as I'm on the search for yet another Montana .223 Rem and less less folks wanting one makes it easier to procure another.

They are not necessarily linked.

Anyone can run whatever they want, I just notice a pattern that more rounds are sent downrange in practice with rifles with less recoil than those that punish on both ends.

Small groups are good, but need to be on the mark.

One makes the other easier, but they don't always go together without regular practice.

And don't worry, I've run a few larger than 243.


I happened to have a 100 yards and a dime handy to fill in the blank - with a 308 to keep everyone happy.

I've grown to love the .223/.223AI's more as volume of shooting increases. Recoil has never really bothered my frail little frame but after 100 rounds on a .223 vs 100 rounds on a #-06 or .#08 the wear is evident. Where I really appreciate the .223/.223AI's is when filling it's modest appetite for powder...which lends itself extremely well to more range time.

FO,

If there was sumptin' better...I'd simply have it.(grin)











'bird,

I may shoot more than (1) diameter myself and if one were to bolt ALL The Paper Hat Brigade's spent primers together,it wouldn't begin to make a scratch in how much I've shot.(grin)

Got epoxy drying on a Tactical lever Gun on the bench,another boltgun is drying a dabbed lug and I've a rifle hangin' in a tree,that just got fresh paint. Been a fair to middlin' Reloading Day and I need to shoot come-ups on a few here in a bit.

Didja' note that both Dooshmike and Wyo' was more than a leetle quiet with their Pretend Rifle "particulars". Funny schit!










'IC,

I'm the only guy I know,that shot a 378Weatherby to death. Only had (5) 375H&H's and (3) 375H&H AI's. If only for starters.

Never seen nobody as good with a rifel as me...but I can only lead folks to water,though I do very much enjoy when they don't drink.(grin)

I hear good thangs about 223/223AI's myself.

B,

I don't make it out as much as you, but the Giraud was busy last weekend prepping for some practice.

I feel your pain.



Actually have (3) rifles hangin' from a tree dryin' and that just might be the record.(grin)

Wind came up enough,to make slappin' 400yd clay birds a trifle sporty with my Savage 22LR,so will tote a video camera and see what transpires...as The Do Nothing Dumbfhukkers practice their Pretend and coax their Imaginations.

Busy day.

The "dime" rifle is a push feed model 70 with Leupold base/rings and a Leupold 3-9x. It likes 4831 and 150 grain NBTs.

'bird,

I went easy.(grin)











Dooshmike,

That rifle really sounds awesome! What stock? How's it bedded? Which base/rings? Which reticle? How fast are the NBT's.

Man...you really are into this stuff,I had no idea just how very steeped you are. Laffin'!

Goose Poop's paint,got dry enough to shoot.



Musta been a hit,as it got the Whales in the front yard [bleep] in the background.



Looking forward to your next bout of Pretend,as you flaunt your Imagination...you poor poor stupid [bleep].

Wow +P+!

How many rounds we talking, and from what position?

Some guys struggle to shoot 20+ rounds from prone with a hunting weight 30-06. Buddy was recently having trouble at 40 rounds with a 7RM. Shooting off a bench at the club or off the hood of the truck ain't quite the same as being all contorted for a field shot. Likewise, a handful of offhand shots with a magnum doesn't equal recoil tolerance like some people think.

Easy to shoot 40-60+ rounds in one session from prone if the recoil don't get to you... plus add some offhand, seated, and more shots from other field positions. A light kicker makes this easy and enjoyable. Haven't met anyone that likes to shoot less rounds, rather than more.

Shoot more, learn more?

Having lived on the east coast for awhile I know a lot of dudes that mostly shoot offhand and at woods ranges (~100 yards or less) or farm ranges (mebbe out to 300 yards). On the wet-coast, seems like a lot more shooting out to "medium" ranges (300-600+ yards). More open country here with longer shots... and wind. A fella needs to practice if he plans to shoot these distances. These longer shooting opportunities are probably less common in many parts of the country.

Prone + recoil = pain for most, which means less shooting.

Jason

20 rounds off the bench with the 30-06 does it for me for a days shooting. I can do more than that offhand but less prone. The farthest I've ever had to shoot to take a deer was right around 300 and thats the only time I've had to shoot beyond 200 except in my pronghorn hunting. 90 some % of my shots have been inside of 150 and you just don't need to buy a .223 and fire hundreds of rounds a week to be able to make those shots. I do shoot beyond 300 yards but that is on groundhogs and mostly with the 270 Winchester. People in more open parts of the country have different needs.

4th,

Now don't go swiping her Imagination and Pretend away from her...if only because it's all she's got and that would be mean.(grin)

She's simply a clueless kchunt,in well over her head and simply talking out her ass. Not that it ain't funnier than schit!

EPIC humor.










Dooshmike,

Now a 20 round day,is a Big 'Un?!? Laffin'!

Do say a leetle sumptin' about the Long Range 270's "particulars",beings you was more than a leetle less than comfy with the Dime Rifle and the groundhog '06. Dare ya'. Laffin'!

I getta kicka outta you stupid [bleep] perpetually concocting reasons not to shoot,then frost it with your "knowledge","experience" and "results".

It's no "secret" that people everyfhukkingwhere,do farrrrrrrrrrrrrr more than you.

Great photos B,

just nothing dead in them.

I guess some shoot off a lot of things, a lot

others, not so much, they just kill-a-lot

after all, if one is proficient, all he needs is one bullet...


for a single



numerous doubles......





A triple here and there......



but four?





So here is to you B.............




Best,


GWB

G',

Mebbe in another 50yrs,you'll learn how to take guts outta schit?!?

Nawwwwwww...you sure as [bleep] cain't learn anything,that "fast".

Laffin'!

B,

when you help other folks kill



when you kill fifty plus hogs a year between yourself



and your son, maybe up to 10 whitetail deer,

perhaps an aoudad,



sika,






an axis or two, not to mention turkey, 'yotes, coons and fox,








[img]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/glenn1221/DSC04604.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/glenn1221/latestgunstuff/DSCN7946.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/glenn1221/hoglets/IMG_0381_zps89ba10a5.jpg[/img]


[img]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/glenn1221/latestgunstuff/IMG_8212.jpg[/img]


guttin' and skinnin' ain't no thang.

Best,

GWB

G',

Too [bleep] funny!

Drum tight schit,sweltering in the sun. Do you pizz on it,before you wrap it too?

The Texas version of everything,is [bleep] hilarious. Your incredibly slow "learning",is a riot.

Just WOW.

A good 243,6.5 creedmoor or even 308 will (should) turn on lots of lighbulbs in the more astute fellers heads..But most dont get that far and seem content beating around the bush instead of shooting..

Lots of those guys that dont get it will skip the inherent goodness of those rounds and jump to a Lapua/EDGE type gun (topped with a vortex of course)..9 times out of ten disappointment sets in, then maybe you can talk to those types..They will then either listen, or come to the conclusion that shooting is whichcraft..its funny chit to see

As always in these GW vs Boxer threads, the score seems a little higher for the Texan. If GW were forced to slum Alaska, Larry would be in a heap o' trouble.

*If anything, its entertaining and somewhat informative at times.

Boxer talks one hell of a mean game. He makes a lot of empty cases too. Even if they are little itty-bitty cases.

One day meebbee heeeel he'll wise up to the superiority of the quarter bore, and absolutely in blue/Walnut. Painted Stainless /synthetic is for lazy basttids.

You have got to be kidding me.

Prairie - which one would you rather spend the day hunting with, then relax around the fire with a plate of game and some bourbon?

I suspect they would be entertaining and good company in their own right. But comparing Texas to Alaska for hunting is like comparing North Korea to America in a "Which country do you prefer" contest.

Rosco,

As my dad nor his brothers were hunters or shooters, I'm self taught, and it took a while to recover from "Magnumitis" and high magnifcation scopes.

I still have magnums, but find that MV's at 2,800 fps. on game reduces the amount of meat damage.



a 308 Win.





a mild-mannered 7mm-08




a 260 Remington in your favorite flavor,

or



maybe a 257 Bob





and of course, a 243 for the little stuff. LOL


how sweet it is.



Best,

GWB

Prairie - I take it you've hunted extensively in both states in order to form that opinion?

Not extensively, but I've hunted both.

But I haven't been to North Korea...so maybe there's something I'm missing.

I agree. Texas is way better. You can kill as hogs, deer, and exotics galore year round. In Alaska you get a few tags every year and short.big game seasons.

Prairie - what game did you hunt in Texas? What part(s) of Texas have you hunted in? Did you hunt with a friend, or utilize a guide or go solo? What was it about your experience that soured you on Texas?

I've not had the pleasure of hunting in Alaska. Hunting in Texas can be excellent� However the access to that hunting can be problematic, or at least expensive�

John

Hondo - you're right about that, if you don't own property you can hunt on, or have friends or family that have property, your options are somewhat limited to paying an expensive lease. That's a consequence of most of the state being in private hands.

Additionally, while I don't want to stir a pot, hunting from a stand/blind over a feeder is not hunting. It's a relatively easy way to shoot something, but it's not hunting (my personal opinion). Hell, I may have just answered the questions I posed to Prairie.:)

'sco1,

I enjoy The Paper Hat Brigade's "justifications" of formulatin' excuses not to shoot,as they trumpet the merits of the latest Coal Burner they read about. In fairness,a whole box of ammo is a bunch. Laffin'!

Pretend ain't real,despite their best efforts and hearts bein' in it.(grin)










'Groove,

Here's to your inherent ability,to take Stupidity to places it's never been before.

Cyber haybale to you.

Laffin'!










Dooshmike,

It is simply a shame,that you are devoid the IQ,to process what an incredibly inept clueless dumbfhukk you are. I mean,you're doing "great". Laffin'!

I enjoy your keen "knowledge" of all the things you talk out your ass about. HILARIOUS schit! In fairness,Big Game Season(s) run ALL 12 months of the year here,if only to burst more of your bubbles. The number of gratis tags,would pop even more of your bubbles...not that you don't reliably do same on accident,with your pointy head and tinfoil hat.

It remains a hoot,that you poor poor stupid [bleep] who "do" the least,Whine the most.

Bless your heart.

PS and by the way...what happened to them rifle "particulars"?!?

Laffin'!











'goat,

Do not slight the allure of pointy boots,fence-hoppin' and Golf Cartin'...as a means to arrange 90-PSI body cavities,in order to set the bar.

Laffin'!










G',

Meat gets shot in the ear,Booners get broken shoulders.

Don't twist your ankle in a field,as you "live" on the edge.

Laffin'!










'64d,

Having 17,000,000 acres of access in my backyard,prolly don't suck.(grin)

I think it would suffice to say that Texas doesn't offer the kind of hunting that folks like prairie_goat and I are after... Because it's Texas.

Still looks fun though.

Tanner

Huh, you show surprisingly few pics of big game that you've harvested for having "year round seasons"? Must be too busy catching the same fish.

I didn't know all Alaskan big game can be legally hunted year round. That is pretty cool.

...make no mistake...no matter where I was at I'd enjoy whatever could be hunted every chance I could.

Same here JCM. Hard to complain about any chance to hunt.

Undoubtedly. An absolutely awful day hunting (not sure if those exist) is always going to beat the heck out of a great day at work.

Tanner

What kind of hunting is that?

Dooshmike,

Just how many Critters can you eat a year?

In fairness...it is difficult to keep your bottom sucking mouth offa hook,no matter how I cast. Congratulations?!?

Bless your heart.

Laffin'!










'san,

I never said nor hinted,that "all" Game was open "all" year.

There ain't a single month of the year,less opportunity to punch a Tag of some flavor and them Tags is both numerous and gratis.

It may not appeal to everyone.










'CUBIC,

Never was tough to cypher who wears out boots and makes empties.(grin)

That constant...remains a constant.










Tanner,

You've had the wrong job(s),if only as a starter.(grin)

Much to be said for Hunting while at work. Money might even grow on trees.

Hint.










'Raider,

Mebbe say sumptin' about a Rapid Fire Barbed Wire Rifle and speak of it's "merits",in your "demanding" situations.

You Whining Clueless Kchunt.

What's today's excuse(s) gonna be?!?

Laffin'!

JG- the dumber I get and the more I hike, the more I like the alpine and putting stuff in my backpack. I'm far from good at it, but damnit it's fun.

Chasing stuff around high places is what I mean when I say the "kind of hunting I'm looking for".

But I can't say I wouldn't like seeing one of those Texas mulies that you have a handle on!

Tanner

Texas does offer the open range big game hunting in the mountains that prairie_goat, you, and I do lots every year. It's a land ownership issues. West Texas has amazing hunting like "we" love and live for. Big open spaces away from people is absolutely where it's at. One of the reasons I moved to Arizona.

However, Texas has significantly more to offer than its reputation on the fire from folks who just haven't done much or any hunting there. Just saying...

Not all game. But you can hunt something (BG), all year in AK.

What seems to get missed in TX vs AK comparos is that AK is an immense wilderness. If you have the means and will, you have an outdoor paradise at your disposal. The land, wilderness, and opportunities are out there if you make it happen. Its all up to you.

Texas has fun and sun, but unless you own a big-ass ranch you are dependent on someone else. You need access. Even if you own a ranch, more than likely it pales in comparison to the public land in many western states... and AK is the grand-daddy of all for those with gumption.

Got a buddy with a ranch in Texas. I declined last year's trip for pig shootin'. They got quad-wheelers and a chopper for fun. I plan to go next time for fun and sun. Wouldn't mind doing some coastal fishing too. But it sure as hell won't be a wilderness experience. More like springbreak for grownups.

Another buddy has a fishing charter in AK. When not fishing, he's a hunting fool. Haven't figured out when/what I'll hunt up there with him but it probably won't involve feeders or fences of any sort, no matter how far spread

After spending a little bit of time in AK and TX, I'd have to say TX does hold a veddy slight edge in one area... good looking women . Met more than a few women in AK that are tougher than the average man down here !

Jason

B - I think it's great you can spend every day of the year hunting some type of game. We can do the same in Texas. Beautiful country you live in, I hope to hunt there some day.

Greg,

What's the status on resident elk tags in AZ? Are there any OTC tags or is it 100% draw? How many points, roughly, to draw a decent tag?

Lived in AZ for a few years. Liked the mix of desert, mountains, and Mogo rim country.

Jason

The real question is whether the 243 or the 7-08 is better in Alaska or Texas.

The terrain has an appeal all its own. Not a lot of true alpine hunting here but canyons and breaks with green ribbons and quaky patches that make the heart race for those that like wide open areas.

J

No better Hunting than watching coyotes come across the prairie wild eyed trying to run over u. At least for me.

I was not comparing Alaska to Texas, I was rating the art of talking chit. I'd give GW a couple of style points over the Little Big Man. "Slumming Alaska" was simply me being facetious. I agree that Alaska is a fine place to live or hunt...I've done both there.

'W,

Don't forget all the Spanish that Texas "enjoys" too.(grin)

Laffin'!










4th,

One of these days,I'm goin' Fishing too.










'san,

Boolits matter more than headstamps,as per always.










rick',

It seems like a Wolf lopin' in,would be sorta cool...or mebbe even a Bear.










'Groove,

You's at the mercy of being forced to use your means,abilities and comprehension as a barometer of evaluation. Which is why of course...you ain't a barometer of much of anything,other than what a good Whine sounds like. Congratulations?!?

Bless your heart.

I've zero intent to talk schit,as I couldn't begin to mine the incredible [bleep] ineptitude,blatantly flaunted by you absolutely clueless dumbfhukks,as you do your "best".

EPIC hilarity!

I dunno, I have listened to a heap of smack talk, so my barometer for such is keen. You have been measured..and found wanting. You're simply not up to Texas smack talk. It's ok...you'll always be King of The Reloading Bench or maybe King of the Cow Barrel. Carry on.

Bear would be interesting.

'Groove,

It's your Imagination...Pretend with it however you wish.

You're doing "great".

Laffin'!










rick',

I'd like to see one too,if only to scratch it offa the Bucket List.

Inside a fence like G' and Raider "do" it...would really be sumptin'.

Laffin'!

I'm trying to find a good outfitter here in NJ for that once in a lifetime bear hunt. Gotta stop buying knives so I can make that dream come true..

And here I was thinking that Kansas was THE cat's ass...you lucky bastard.

If I could save the jingle for a High Quality Bear Hunt,I believe I'd go to Maine and hopefully luck into one of their Minimums,like WhoreHey did.

THAT would be sumptin'!

Boy, Im sure glad you posted this response, cuz I was ready to dive in with my $.02. Texas doesn't hold a candle to Alaska whether your hunting or just enjoying the outdoors, lets make that very very crystal clear!

How about a seafood feast... razors, crabs, shrimps, halibut, salmon, etc. Getting hungry just thinking about it.

Wouldn't mind catching some redfish in the Gulf but blackened recipes make me wonder...

J

I've heard that some of our bears die of old age having never seen a human being in our vast and unforgiving wilderness. Long hard winters and a dwindling amount of garbage cans are starting to take a toll on these majestic creatures.

Funny schitt right there. Here's what I can do this year if I wanted to, all free tags over the counter:

Kill:

3 black bears (year around)
1-2 brown bears (year around)
1 moose
5 deer
1 goat
1 sheep
1-10 caribou a DAY, depending on the unit I choose to hunt and damn near year around.

Plus, there's bison, muskox, elk, etc...

And 650k+ of sq miles...

B,



nuttin' like high fenced

deer






turkey







high-fenced squirrel





doin' it the hard way

high-fenced bunnies and coons

[img]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/glenn1221/DSC01159.jpg[/img]

high-fenced dove

[img]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/glenn1221/IMG_0130_zps53ba94f0.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/glenn1221/latestgunstuff/IMG_9890.jpg[/img]

not to mention the challenge of harvesting the rare and seldom seen THFH (Texas high fenced humdinger)

[img]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/glenn1221/latestgunstuff/IMG_7640.jpg[/img]

Exhilarating

Best,

GWB

Didn't kill any Big Game critters last year,did get a couple coyotes though.

FREE TAGS OVER THE COUNTER? Are you a native Alaskan or ?

Alaska',

Boy that was close...as I was leaving Kansas and headin' for Texas...until you said sumptin'.

Thanks!










4th,

I get my Seafood fresh from Safeway and I doubt it's much over 14 days old...never having been frozen.

One of many inherent advantages to Kansas Trucking Routes!










'Finn,

I really think WhoreHey was onto sumptin',when he killed his Maine Minimum Black Bear...if only because they are harder to hit. He was talkin' about wearing his Dump Ghillie and tying used diapers,trash bags and light bulbs to his TuTu.

Sneaky bastard sprung outta da closet and had his way.

Laffin'!










'stalker,

I heard Alaska is expensive and that it's cold/dark all the time.

Tough to whoop Kansas.










G',

The Texas version of everything,is [bleep] hilarious.

Bless your "hard charging" heart.

Laffin'!










'nm,

If I could speak Spanish,set on the couch and work for Minimum Wage,NM would be [bleep] awesome.

Laffin'!

C'mon B,


show some initiative,

can't afford toys on minimum wage.

Heck, all the Messicans here can work to one's advantage,




a couple hours now and then at a popular intersection and faster than you can say ARRIBA...............

how do you think I afford all my toys? LOL

Mejor,

Jose CanUsee

Does pretty good on minimium wage,bought these four from mid-Dec to now.









Now a LGS has a Winchester 12 ga O/U Select Energy Sporting that I have my eye on. Boy,that minimum wage is sure tough for us poor New Mexicans.

ENM


Looks like you're spending your money wisely.

Best,

GWB

pretty Winnies

Yes, free tags. Just costs a little gas money to go pick them up from one of the gas stations, grocery store, or places like Sportsman's Warehouse, lol.

Luv to see some pix for sommers' else than "the milford"

Best,

GWB

Yeah GeeDub

Buzzsaw,Thanks.

My bad,

Toto gets as confused as B,



he thought all those pix were from Kasas.

Best,

GWB

How about South Africa instead of Kansas.

Nice rifles! Especially since they don't have plastic *ahem*synthetic stocks with spray paint and various colors of electrical tape on them.

nice pony.

Glad you were able to go.

may have to break down and go there one day.




Nah, I have to be groped to get on a plane, too much trouble, and way too many Mondays.

Best,

GWB

Best, GWB

Well MooseMike,do have one that is painted and a synthetic stock(stock is not painted,that was done at the factory). No stickers or duct tape though.

Picked this up a while back from a guy here on the fire.





He even took into account the fact that I was a southern boy from Texas and sent me a "Big Twig" starter pack..........

McSwirley crayon, blue tape and an AMax bullet.

Right neighborly I thought.

Next thing ya' know I might be flingin' long and snappin' pix in "Paradise". LOL

Best,

GWB

That's a very nice knife GeeDub,almost a shame in using it,almost, but not quite.

I would LOVE to go again and like you, I don't want to be groped.

not at all,

meant to be used



and enjoyed



Best,

GWB

elkhunternm, what caliber was that custom rifle on your series of four rifles???? Nice rifles all, but that one caught my eye most...

Is this the one WCH?



If so,it's a FN Mauser chambered in .270 Winchester.



GeeDub,it's a shame to NOT use such a fine blade.

That is the one.. Nice, very nice.. thanks..

You're welcome WCH.

A little smoked tuna and halibut.

URL=http://s174.photobucket.com/user/pharmseller/media/Smokedfishafter_zpsca1a7743.jpg.html][/URL]

Maybe a ling or two.



Or halibut fish and chips.








Cracked crab, maybe?



[img]http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w84/pharmseller/100_0652.jpg[/img]

You get tired of it after awhile.

[img]http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w84/pharmseller/100_0641.jpg[/img]


Good thing salmon is on the menu to change things up.

[img]http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w84/pharmseller/113_1370.jpg[/img]




P

I'm hungry, I especially love smoked shakers...

GW
Where are you purchasing the Coopers for 60% of MSRP?

What is the old bromide,
"if i toldja' I'd have to kill ya"

LOL


GWB

On a more serious note,

It is getting harder to sneak up on deals, now that Coopers are more popular. I got my first somewhere around 2000. It was a model 38 in 22 Hornet. At that time Cooper only made single shots in centerfire rifles, and mostly in varmint calibers. Guy I knew and tried to follow closely due to his impetuous nature, sold me this Cooper with the Leupold 4.5 x 14 Vari-XIII for a $1K IIRC.



I purchased this from field grade Monday IIRC

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...03/Re_Cooper_M38Classic_17AH#Post8642003

I thought this was a good deal so I jumped on it. Two sets of rings, 100 pieces of fireformed brass and a set of F/l dies.
Do the math, then look at what Cove Creek Outfitters or Michi-Gun are pricing new models at. If I were to buy local I would have to add 8.25% tax. Shipping and FFL transfer fee on this transaction work out to about 4%.


Best,

GWB

PS: PM your way.