REMINGTON'S SUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There I've said it, Remington's absolutely suck. I never thought I'd say that, but I've had nothing but one problem after another with them lately. Right now I have 4 different Remington rifles misbehaving. All of them are trigger/safety related problems. The first is my beloved 30.06 BDL that decided to start going off when the safety was released. I replaced the trigger and safety with a Timney and now nothing works right. The trigger, safety, bedding all went to [bleep]. That one is on it's way to a gunsmith shortly. Next gun on the list I have a new 700 AWR in 300 WinMag. It works okay, but the bolt does not lock when the safety is on. It binds, but it does not lock tightly and now and then it likes to bind even when the safety is off, not to mention jam shells instead of ejecting them everytime. I also have a .308 in a 788 that the whole trigger/safety assembly is froze up tight. I think there is a part missing somewhere. Anyway I have a Canjar on the way to hopefully solve that problem. Just before I left for Canada I swapped for a Remington Mt. Rifle LSS 7mm08. Before I left everything worked just fine. This morning I pull it out of my safe to check the trigger and decide how much adjusting it's going to need. The whole friggen thing is locked up tight as well. I'm talking the trigger, safety and bolt release. Nothing will budge. This POS of rifle has that STUPID J-Lock and I swear it acts like it's engaged or something. Having never owned one with a J-Lock I'm not sure. What I do know is that in it's current condition it's useless. There's no way that lock was engaged as it has been sitting all by it's self in my safe for the last month and I haven't got a freakin key to lock or unlock it with anyway. I'm sick of fiddling with Remington's. From here on out it's Tikka's, Sakos, Weatherby, and maybe in a weak momment even a Winchester. I HAVE BOUGHT/TRADED MY LAST REMINGTON!!!!!!!!!! Once I get these buggers fixed there's a good chance a bunch of them will be for sale so stayed tuned if you like abuse and have money to burn. Okay I'm done venting.

Can't say I disagree with you much,at least on Remingtons made in the last 5 years or so.
 
 Sell those POS and buy yourself a good Browning Belgium Safari Grade.Even Big Stick likes those,and even he'll admit to them being head and shoulders over just about any bolt rifle.Mauser or Sako action model,doesn't really matter.They are all REALLY scarry accurate,well made,hand engraved with good stocks.Just don't get one with a salt wood stock and I promise you you'll love it.
 
 If not,I'll trade you some Remingtons for it. [Linked Image]

I put a Rifle Basic trigger on mine ,read the results in custom rifle building.Any piece of precision parts ,tight fitting in a open topped box is a problem waiting to happen.Good luck.

OK, so I really should wait until I can get a killer deal on that LSS, 'cus I'd like it.....
 
 But..... you know that gunsmith you told me about? He did the trigger job on my new rifle and he also has a firing pin assembly ($65) that replaces the factory one (J-lock and all). It funtions perfectly, helps accuracy, weighs 3 oz less than the factory setup AND gets rid of the wart. He did a really nice job on the trigger for $42. So far, I have to say that I'm extremely happy with my new Remington.
 
 BTW, I have a J-lock tool I can send you if you need it. Now that I can live with my conscience, feel free to sell that POS for next to nothing -- just let me have first crack at it [Linked Image]

!

BTW, next time I'm up there, please remind me NOT to put anything in your safe!!!

Big Sky,
 
 Sorry to hear of your woes. I would get a GOOD gunsmith to fix the problems. I would also get rid of that POS J-Lock. I've seen replacement shrouds on TacticalStocks.com that remove that eyesore.
 
 Had a new Leupold VariXIII take a crapper on me yesterday,so I have a hunch how you feel. See my post about it taking a dirt nap.
 
 Even the good stuff breaks on occasion but it still sucks....

Muley brings up a good point. Do you think it's possible you have a humidity problem with your safe?????

Post deleted by AFP

Did the person who adjusted them know what they were doing? If I were you I would have a good look at them to see if any of the adjustment screws have backed out or something....
 
 Good luck I know they can be very aggravating when they misbehave...
 
 Mike

Don't tell me you turned Canuck too?!!?
 
 Always looking for another sucky Remington. You've my phone number and Email addy both. Sucky short actions,are my preference. Sucky S/S a bonus,especially one chambered in that good for nuthin' 7-08.
 
 Go easy,when you start unloadin' those lemons upon me.....................

That Stick is a generous soul..... [Linked Image]

The only thing Remington has going for them, is Boddington's love for the 700 action. Besides that, can we say trash?! Paying $500+ for a gun that doesn't even work properly - what a joke.

stalker,
 
 Should you too,have broken Remingtons,I'm all ears...............

HEY-- HEY YOU --STOP trying to HOG all the CRAPPY M700's . I want a few of them, too.;>)

I didn't figure I'd be able to have a monopoly,I'm too damn poor....................

I can help you out if you want to sell off any of those peices of junk. Those short action Remingtons are just the worst of the bunch. I could also help you get rid of any of those factory triggers you replaced with those nice new custom triggers. I may make trot line weights or something out of them. e-mail me when you are ready to get rid of those nasty old things. PDS

Troy,
 
 The sharks are circling- [Linked Image]

- Sheister

Troy, lets see... Rem's have a trigger design with fifteen different little parts that must fit and operate well on several different planes, yet is still undisputabley the least "safe" safety/trigger ever designed. Mike Walker (the designer) urged the then DuPont owned Remington Co. to change to a "Model 70 Style Trigger." The extractor is a little nail clipping of metal that can clog with brass shavings and sometimes snap. The bolt handle is a brazed-on, ill-shaped POS that can and does break off. The trigger guard and floorplate (if included) are cheezy pot-metal and now you need a "key" to "start" your rifle. No, I quit Remington's about seven years ago and will never own another.
 
 BA

Don't worry I'll be listing them soon enough, but I want them fixed first. Don't be looking for any cheap deals though, as they will go for the fair market price, as I got to get as much as I can, to pay for better rifles you know. [Linked Image]

Right now the Sako Stainless is calling my name pretty loud.

Troy
 Those new SS Mauser MkX actions should be just what you want, so long as you are willing to give up the weight savings and accuracy of those rotten Remingtons.
 
 If I didn't know better I would be inclined to question your ability to adjust a trigger??? But I also have one right now that I cannot adjust, though I have completely disassembled and polished it twice, it is still too stiff for use.
 
 Good luck with them
 art

Art, I've only toyed with the trigger on one of those 4 screwed up rifles. It's the one that's headed for the gunsmith. The rest have been farged up with no help from me, haven't touched the trigger adjustments on them.

Post deleted by AFP

ANY box trigger ,is a trouble waiting to happen,I have a Sako and a Bold triggers as well.The open sides of the Winchester are what makes it a better design for a hunting rifle.A Remington with QC works and works well.

Big Sky,
 
 Hmm, seems the Remington camp suggests ya throw more money into them rifles. Gotta replace those triggers right away ya know, even though they're the bestest, safetest, and easyest to adjustest, trigger ever produced.
 
 [Linked Image]

Gotta pay more to get rid of the wart too. Still, the Remmies are the finest rifles built today, just ask one.
 
 [Linked Image]

Post deleted by AFP

AFP,
 
 It's a free board, post whatever you desire.
 
 Here's that picture again of my "shotgun patterned" 416 Taylor at 170 yards
 
 [Linked Image]

Darn that rifle, it could of been so much better with a tackdriver...
 
 [Linked Image]

Bought a new Rem 700 BDL in 7mm mag that wouldn't chamber factory ammo. I've gotten away from 700's now. I'd almost bought another one but changed my mind and bought an Intermarms Mark X instead. Now all my rifles are model 70's, Sako's, or the Interarms.

I'm not much of a bolt-gun shooter but a very good friend is and has just purchased one of the safety lock 700's. Could someone post the contact information for the firm(s) that make replacement parts to eliminate same? He hasn't had an opportunity to shoot it yet but I'd like him to have the info just in case. Thanks in advance.

I've had the same level of problems with Chrysler products. I will not EVER own another. I've had fantastic luck with Ford trucks and I'll likely not own a different FULL size truck. Soooooo, what's that mean???
 
 Everyone who disagrees is wrong??? Each person has their own experiences and has to make their own decisions based on those and various other factors that are unique to the individual. Few would doubt that you are more likely to get an accurate action out of a Remington. Few would doubt that Remingtons are "occasionally" subject to trigger problems. Few would doubt that Winchester went downhill after 1964. Few would doubt that QC has sucked with most all manufacturers in recent years. Soooooo, where does that leave us? I put an extra $100 into my latest Remington because I was confident it'd take care of my biggest two concerns with factory Remingtons (trigger and wart). If I'd gone with a Sako, would I be better off? I don't think so, as I'd of spent a lot more on the initial rifle AND I still would have had the trigger worked on. Winchester guys, are you telling me you don't have trigger work done on your out of box rifles???? Kinda doubt it if you are looking for accuracy at all.
 
 Now, a new rifle that won't chamber factory ammo? Got a strange feeling that if it was sent back to Remington, it'd get fixed rather quickly. Not an excuse, but both Remington and Winchester are competing in a niche market where they can't stay in business by BOTH putting out perfect quality AND selling their new rifles for only $600. That attention to detail costs money which in turn means a more expensive rifle at the counter.
 
 So in a nutshell, regardless of what rifle you grab, we should be educated enough in the "rifle lottery" business to know that sometimes you get a winner and sometimes a loser. Most of the time, you get one that is purely adequate. NEWS FLASH!!!!! THAT is what you are buying with these types of rifle. If you want more, buy a better rifle off the shelf or KNOW that you are going to have to work on the one you got.
 
 Sorry, vent over...

Yadda yadda let's not let this turn into a mudslinging...
 
 What we all know is for the most part the big gun companies have let QC go down and they all need some improvement in that area...
 
 Mike

MS Looks like we had the same idea!
 
 Mike

Bill, here is the guy I used. So far, I'm very happy with his work: http://www.gtrtooling.com/index.htm
 
 The firing pin replacement assembly goes for $65. I'm pretty sure I saw it under Brownells name at Midsouth??? You can get it directly from him too. Contact info on the website. Same price for stainless or blued.
 
 BTW, Welcome!

Yep, Mike we did. I'd love to keep ranting, but I wouldn't be saying anything new...

MS said, "If you want more, buy a better rifle off the shelf or KNOW that you are going to have to work on the one you got." That's pretty much my point exactly. I no longer want to have to work on the "one I got", and I intend to buy BETTER off the shelf. Those Sako triggers btw don't take much work and might be just fine as is. I understand the Tikka rifles and triggers are pretty darn sweet as well. The only thing I don't like about Tikka rifles is they are a bit on the ugly side in my eyes. Not Savage 110 ugly, but definitely not sexy either. I'm don't think Weatherby's are all that great looking either, but they seem to have attitude. Just sitting there they have an air about them that says, "something's gonna die!" Now the Sako 75 SS in the laminated stock is my kind'a rifle. Good looking, good working, and any I've had experience with shot as well or better than any of my Remington's, (that is when my Remingtombs are working.)

AFP, no emotion, simple facts.
 
 You're also quite wrong about what Mike Walker concluded about his own trigger design. I've read Mr. Walker's own words extensively... have you? You seem to be a victim of the idea if something has hasn't happened to you it can't happen. Remington has maintained an ad-campaign promoting the 700 that has been unparaleled in the gun industry. Just because they've mfg. the most turn-bolt's that means they're good? That's utter nonsense. They made so many because they're cheap and easy to mfg. I suppose you believe their "three-ring's-of-steel" promo.
 
 Also, many competent gunsmith's of national reputation will gladly dispute you about the "safety" of the Remington trigger/safety, including Jack Belk, past President of the ACGG.
 
 I personaly would'nt own a rifle of any kind with a brazed-on bolt handle, let alone one with a ridiculous little extractor that the 700 has. There's a reason why the finest custom maker's in America today mfg. rifles for hard-duty, field use, primarily use M98's or M98 clones (M70's)... Paul Mauser got it right over 100 years ago... Remington is nothing but cheap American junk promoted in that timeless American way... sizzle over substance... hype over reality.
 
 I sincerely hope Remington see's fit to implement their trigger re-design. It could save many lives. I also sincerely hope they survive as a Co. to do so. They will not get my business though.
 
 BA

Muley Stalker,
 
 My gun still has the factory trigger on and it is still accurate. Just ask the game that I killed with it and they'll tell you. Err, wait. You can't do that. Why? Because they're dead!
 
 If you would, please define "accuracy."
 
 BTW, my gun is a hunting gun, not a sniper weapon that was handed down from God, either. In other words, I don't really see the difference between a 3/4 inch groups to 1 inch groups when I'm hunting. And thankfully it's not a Remington!

Sky, I'll be the first to admit that the Sako's have STYLE! I've liked the Tikka's I've handled too. I chose Remington this last time because of the action. Nothing more, nothing less. You gotta start somewhere. My feeling is this: give a Remington action to a competent smith, put on a great barrel, add a great stock, let him do his magic to the action and HOPEFULLY, you'll have the rifle of your dreams. May not be as pretty as some other rifles, but it'll be a workhorse -- which is MY preference at the end of the day.
 
 I didn't mean to offend anyone, just to say you don't get something for nothing. I really don't believe that $600 will buy me the kind of rifle that I'm looking for. Of course, a guy always hopes to get lucky [Linked Image]

.

Post deleted by AFP

Bearstalker -- to each their own. If your factory trigger suits you: GREAT!
 
 We each have our own definition of "accuracy." It's a relative term. I'm sure mine is different than yours, that's why "I" feel like work is warranted on any factory rifle, especially the $600 variety. I can live with that. My taste.
 
 I've killed a lot of game too! Yippee for me! Never remember any of them talking before or after the shot. If you have, I'd suggest psychiatric help.
 
 I'm not trying to convince ANYONE to buy Remington. Simply stating that you get what you pay for. If you don't like it, tough [bleep]! That's life. You can either 1) spend the rest of your life bitter, 2) do something about it or 3) accept it and get on with your life.
 
 I'll guarandamntee you one thing. Remington, Winchester or whoever isn't going to give you the quality you are looking for at the price you are looking for AND still be around in 5 years to service their products.

The last two new rifles I bought were a Remington VLS .223 and a Winchester Mod. 70 .270 WSM....Both rifles came out of the box with absolutely horrible triggers, both were adjusted by yours truly...The 700 was still not up to my satisfaction, so a buddy of mine who is much better at them than me worked on it and it now suits me fine.
 
 Both rifles had no bedding, just the hot glue gun stuff they typically use on factory guns...I'm not sure why they bother because it is too soft..
 
 The Remington flat shot out of the box, BUT throws flyers occasionally. I have had the crown lapped and have not even tested it to see the results, I may try to do that tomorrow afternoon...
 
 The Winchester needs the feed ramp polished to smooth the feeding of that 35 degree shoulder!
 
 Both rifles will be getting a bedding job in the near future as well, I have been lazy in not bedding the VLS all I do with it is shoot it off the bench, and don't do that often so it hasn't been a priority.
 
 My point is, I consider the costs of these rifles pretty substantial, at least for my income level, and they still need a fair amount of work to be at a level that both companies advertisements would have you believe you are getting.
 
 Mike

BTW, bearstalker my Remington has a factory trigger still too. I simply like a crisper trigger with a lighter pull so spent a whopping $42 getting it worked over by a competent smith. Again, personal preference. I'm happy that you're happy with yours... Why not be happy that I'm happy with mine? Can't we all just be happy?

Mike, I guess my credo is "take everything with a grain of salt." Especially advertising. I love this country and American ingenuity. Those advertising people make big bucks for a reason!

Scott, don't think for a minute I have even a remote problem with you buying that new 338RUM. I hope it gives you great service. I got over 20 years of flawless service out of my BDL that went all haywire in the last year. That really set me off as it was such a reliable "go to" rifle that it has me quite rattled that it's not behaving. I attained the 788 knowing it had something wrong with the trigger/safety, but had no idea it would be such a pain in the rear to get straightened out. The AWR has zero excuse for not performing well. In my opinion a $1500.00 shouldn't have piddly little annoying problems that I expect from a $600.00 rifle. The little 7mm08 Mt. Rifle has me totally baffled as it worked fine before I left and now it's tight as a drum and no visible rust or dirt problems. Just stinking bad Karma or something. Anyway if you start adding it up I've got a lot of penny's already wrapped up in those rifles. I've several other 700's that I haven't shot and right now I'm not sure I even want to considering my lousy luck as of late. I'm thinking I'd be better off with 2 or 3 top quality rifles (read high end or custom) than a half a dozen weenie rifles that are giving me fits. It doesn't help at all that I was able to shoot some very nice custom rifles and a sweet factory Sako just before I left for Canada. I now know exactly what I'm missing and there won't be any rest until I get at least one or two of my rifles up to that level. I got ruined with quality scopes on that same shoot, but I don't feel like opening that can of worms right now. [Linked Image]

Troy, I actually agree with you 100%. We got sidetracked a bit. YOUR situation sucks. That's just more bad luck than one guy should experience in a lifetime. Seriously, you might want to do a little checking around to see if you don't have humidity problems or ????? in your basement. Not that that is an excuse for what happened. It isn't. It sucks and not to rub it in, I hope my luck is better (grin).
 
 Hey, what do I know. I thought that Chrysler mini-van was pretty hot. It sure cost a heck of a lot of money. It SUCKED! So, we bought a Grand Cherokee -- which SUCKED! So, we talked the dealer out a replacement Grand Cherokee -- IT SUCKED! You think I'd learn! Well, I have now, which is why I certainly wouldn't blame you if you never owned another Remington again. Seriously!
 
 Look at Weatherby. I'm disillusioned because the one I owned wasn't exactly a stellar performer. BUT, it did as advertised. I had no problem getting 1.5" groups per their claim, but I was looking for more. If Weatherby (at $1000+ out of the box) can only guarantee that performance, I don't expect a Remington to outperform it for barely more than half the price. Maybe that is why I expect to have work done on a new rifle to get it where I want it.
 
 Once again -- your experiences are unwarranted. I completely understand what it is like to get "rattled." You just HAVE to have confidence in your tools. I also understand you have a new benchmark [Linked Image]

. I take it you've been N. of the border playing??? Wish I was closer!!!

OK, my two cents.
 Our modern rifles are wonders on quality engineering at ridiculously low prices.
 None of them are perfect. The famous Sako is a quality gun with a capital "Q". It uses an extracor that is small, and can get debris under it which will causes it to fail. Much more so than a Remington. The only extraction system that extracts harder than today's Remington is the original 98 Mauser-not today's models which are modified to allow one to feed a round directly into the chamber. They will shift sideways before they will rip the the rim off the case as will the Remington. For more details, try Frank DeHaas's book, Bolt Action Rifles.
 On triggers, it, apparently, is a bit more complicated. They must be kept free of debris. Or they fail, or go sour by getting to heavy etc.. I was told years ago not to oil them. That will attract dust, etc. and gum them up. Then there is question of proper sear engagement. This is what you pay good gunsmiths for. BTW, I had an early Weatherby design discharge twice, during a range session when I released the safety. The gunsmith that adjusted it didn't quite leave enough for the safety to work. The orginal gunsmith I had do it did. And I'd put up about 4.5 lbs. ever since. Then this "red hot" came along and sweet talked me into a trigger job. It actually held for a number of years, then failed. This is one reason why outfits like Jewell ( Sp ?) get so much money for their products. They last, and they work in critical settings.
 For this reason, I really like the Winchester/Ruger system. The safety doesn't work with the trigger. It is separate. And locks the firing pin. The triggers are easy to access, and keep clean. Granted it takes a really good trigger man to rework one, but such people do exist. Or you can buy and after market unit. Which will work, as long as it is clean. E

Dang I feel left out. I've bought/traded/sold and shot about 20-22 different Rem 700's(including two 722's) and the only problem I've had was a broken extractor on a 223 when I blew a case in it.Guess I just gotta keep buying them,maybe I'll get a bad one some day.The trigger is fine when adjusted and cleaned properly by someone who can really visualize how they work.I've never had a problem with mine.Safe handling and all...you know what I mean.

Muley Stalker,
 
 Personal preferences and opinions are great, aren't they? That extra whopping $42 can be used for a box of ammo or a set of decent rings. I'm happy for you, and I'm even more happy now that you're happy with my decision and personal preference.

Funny Blaine, you call my post BS yet you can't counter my criticism.
 
 You of all people should understand "redundancy" in "systems." P. Mauser tried and rejected PF's for a reason. Why wouldn't you want the ultimate in reliability and redundancy (surplus strength and structural integrity)? I suggest you've bought into Remington's marketing, have comitted yourself financially and now have a "stake" in seeing things YOUR way. I "bit the bullet" when I finally "SAW" the 700 for what it was and divested myself FULLY of all I had. Hell, at least I had the courage to look realisitcally at what I'd bought into and summoned the courage to make a change. None of this is life and death (potentially) though it's VERY rare you'll find an African PH carrying anything other than a tuned CRF (for a reason). Brazed bolt handles? Hell no! That's nonsense... they DO break. The way I hunt (backpacking into wilderness) I can't afford to have my bolt handle break. I will concedede that generally none of this makes much of a difference. HOWEVER, I like to PLAN for that 1% of the time. It's funny how many times in life that 1% situation occurs...
 
 Brad

Brad,
 I bought a 700adl .243 in 1979, a heavy bbl .243 in the '80's, a 7 mag bdl in '81 for an Alaskan trip, built a 708 on a short 700 before they were a factory offering, had a 7STW put together on a 700 two months after Layne Simpson's article hit the streets, and currently have a newer 708 varminter, two 6x284s, a 22-284, and another .243 I built for my daughter a few years ago. Oh, and another 708 that Shilen put together with a #2 wieght barrel. All on Remington 700s, all but one with Factory triggers. Some have been around here a lot of years. All get exercised regularly. Some of the Prairie dog rifles have nearly 2000 rounds thru them. When can I expect a brazed on bolt handle to fall off, or have an extractor failure, or a floor plate or trigger guard to break? Please let me know as soon as possible because I am surely due for all of them to break, since none have yet. And after reading your posts, I now doubt that the match results in the back of Precision Shooting that lists Remington 700 actions along with Custom actions in the winners column are true at all. It is obvious Remington has payed them off. Thanks for heads up. It is factual first hand experience like your s that saves us all. Mike

Mike, I'll admit I've only owned around ten M700's... Apart from a trigger problem on a stainless 338 and one M7 stainless 308 that went back to Remington three times (they never could make it right and refunded my money) I've had very few problems with 700's.
 
 I do, however, know those who have... from broken extractors to broken bolt handles and FOSR's (fire-on-safety-release). Personally I'm not interested in what "Precision Riflesmith's" build on... I've heard of so-called "precision" rifles that wouldn't even feed. HUNTING rifle's (as opposed to a Target/beanfield/varmint rifle, et. al.) are what interest me... like I said, I prefer solid steel parts with structural integrity, not cheap pot-metal parts, flimsy extractors, key-starter's, brazed bolt-handles, a bolt that is difficult to field strip and a heavy washer that Remington calls a recoil lug.
 
 I like a TOOL, the primary design of which, is for the use I put it to (ie hunting). The primary reason for the design features of the 700 is cheap and easy manufacture, period. NOTHING ELSE. Besides being inexpensive, the 700 is easy to chuck-up in the lathe (round tube) and gobs of after-market stuff is available for them because there's so many around (ain't marketing a wonderful thing).
 
 An M70, 98, etc. can be made into just as accurate a rifle but it's a bit harder to do. The best smith's can do it however. The 98 and its clones were designed to function reliably in the harsh condition's of the battle-field. Hunting can get just as ugly in terms of harsh condition's.
 
 I'm certain any 700 can be made into a reasonble hunting rifle. Certainly the overly-complex and potentially dangerous trigger is the first thing that must go. I'd replace the trigger guard and floorplate with all-steel ones and would have a sako-extractor installed. I wouldn't own a key-start 700.
 
 What's always amazed me is the M70 Push feed (post 64) is about as good a push feed as was ever made or conceived. The trigger on the M70 is one of the simplest, most rugged, reliable and adjustable trigger's around. It has the wonderful and safe three poition safety and a better extractor... problem was Winchester has always been out-madison-avenued by Remington and pre-64 owners never forgave the company.
 
 Brad

Troy -you have my e-mail if you wanna move the 788-thx
 
 Dog
 
 
 "GET TO THE HILL"

I gave up on factory rifles about 18 years ago.I like to shoot alot and got tired of cleaning the ruff as a cobb barrels from the factory.Custom barrels clean up quicker shoot more accurately and last longer overall.My last factory rifle was a sweet shooting Rem 700, 270 win.When the barrel got so bad it stopped being a real good shooter I sent it out and had it made into a 280 AI.The factorys are under pressure to pump out product.Quality suffers.Worked over 700s are still IMHO the best there is for any type hunting.Over the years I've as many as 28, 700s and never had any serious problems.Its a simple matter of checking the gun out before you use it.Blow up test have proven that the Mauser type action will harm the shooter.I will pass.
 I think most guys get into Mausers becaues the fathers used them.Why carry a 100 year old design around when there is much better.
 dave

The complete ignorance of what P. Mauser achieved, and what, apart from modern metalurgey, has never been equaled is a marvel to behold... when I got myself Idjumicated, I never viewed rifles in the same light again. That's when I gave-up on 700's. To each his own as this is all supposed to be fun and games anyway...
 
 BA

WHAT!!! This is all fun and games! [Linked Image]

I figure those than can, shoot Remingtons. Older models of course. And those that can't shoot all the others.

The Marine Corps uses Rem 700 rifles with varying degrees of modification as sniper rifles. It's been used and abused "in every clime and place" for over 30 years now.
 
 The latest (M40A3) still uses the factory trigger, extractor, and bolt handle. The M40A3 does have a beefed up recoil lug. These components of the rifle are not as fragile as some would have you believe.
 
 MM

Never had a 700, but I have a 725 that works pretty good. It was made before the 700's came out. Caliber .30-06, and shoots groups in the 1.75" area with its favorite factory stuff. Trigger is a bit heavy at 4.5 lbs, but it's crisp. Never had a problem of any kind with it. Still in great shape, lock stock and barrel. Even has real cut checkering on the stock (nice job too), and a checkered steel butt plate.

Real Hawk Eye, I appreciate your reply. Please don't take offense, but a 1.75 group would be a problem for me, as would be a 4.5 lbs. trigger. I've shot 725's and they are nice plain Jane rifles. Good no glitz, meat and taters type of rifles. I've owned and shot Remington 700's for over 23 years. I was much like several poster on this thread and smirked and smiled when I saw someone complain about their Remingtons. I assumed it was likely more the fault of the owner than the rifle. Well I'm a changed man so to speak. The majority of my problems have occured in the last year. Of the 4 rifles I'm having trouble with I only tinkered with one and that was only because it decided to go off when the safety was released. Guess all these problems are my come upants for being so confident in my rifles over the years. I won't dispute that Remington's over the years are one of the most accurate out there, but the more I learn about rifles and reliability the less I like them. I'm not anywhere close to switching over to Winchester model 70's like Brad, but I do respect his opinions as I do many who have contributed to this thread. Fact is I'm not too crazy about any american factory rifle manufacturer. Sort'a feel like I did back when I gave up on american built vehicles. I switched to Toyota's early in life and it's saved me ton's of money. I occasionally still buy american cars and it doesn't take very long to remember what a heap of expensive crap they are. Unfortunately Toyota does't make a big enough vehicle to haul my family around so I'm stuck with american built cars. Thank goodness it's not the same with rifles, at least there, I still have choices.

Brad,
 Truth be known, I prefer to pack around one of the three older Sakos in the house. And there ain't no hair on either of the two 6.5 swedes in one of my son's collections. An OLD 579 Sako is the most nostalgic rifle I own and a joy to carry and shoot. It takes a Kansas whitetail whenever presented the chance. It is an 'inch and a halfer' at best, but that has always been good enough, and that smooth Sako action is a dream. It has a very mediocre trigger, stock of course. But I've never been able to build as accurate a rifle on a Sako as on a 600 or 700 Rem. Close, but not quite there. I did pack around a Whitworth .375 in the '80s on several Alaskan trips. It was ok. I didn't like the way the bolt rattled side to side when cycled. Anyway, I have no agenda here, no reason to condem one rifle over the other. They have all been a joy to own and use. I keep going back to Remingtons tho and have had no problems. I suppose the 708 laminate heavy barrel is the newest, maybe 4 0r 5 years old. It is one of the most accurate rifles I have, customs included. I have no experience with newer Remingtons, including the version with the key(???) so will keep quiet on that issue. The stock 708 will shoot in the 3's at 100, and sometimes bug hole 'em even at 200 before the barrel needs scrubbed out again. As you said, shoot whatever you care to. My choices will happily include the Remingtons. Mike

I'm not saying it's your fault. Could be that Remingtons aren't as good as they once were. Maybe they were never all that good. Winchester 70s are my hunting rifles of choice, personally.
 
 Is your bolt still frozen closed from when you put it in the safe? I had that happen once to me, and the gunsmith found that I had left a spent case in there, and that is what caused the problem. I had intended to clean it the next day, forgot and just put it into the safe, where it remained for months before I tried to work the action again. It was a lever action, and he just rammed it out while pulling the lever up. Of course there would need to be a different solution for a bolt action. Any chance there is a spent case in there, and some grime cooled down and adhered it to the chamber?

Hey guys, I've enjoyed the conversation here... as you all can tell I'm sort of passionate about this topic!
 
 Please forgive me if I've offended anyone... sometimes communicating ideas from a keyboard can be difficult. I really should take more time (perhaps) to convey my thoughts in a less dogmatic manner... well, I guess I am pretty dogmatic around this particular topic so I may always be a bit guilty of "straight talk!" My gut-feeling about most hunters is they're not a bunch or PC sissy's that can't take some ideas that run contrary to their own!
 
 I've gotta say I do like the older Sako's, and am not completely hung-up on CRF's per-say (though all I own are M70's). I also think a varminter on a "pre-key" 700 is a good way to go (with modifications). There are other good, sturdy actions around to form the basis for reliable hunting rig's. Also, just because something is CRF doesn't mean it's a flawlessly functioning weapon... in fact, the more I'm at this game, the more I realize P. Mauser's wisdom... he designed a magazine box specifically for each cartridge a given 98 would be chambered for. The modern M70's use "generic" magazines for a variety of cartridges. Sometimes feeding problems can result. The top-notch custom maker's using 98's and thier clones use Mauser's system of specific boxes for a given cartridge. I must say however, apart from my 300 WSM all my M70's feed and extract flawlessly. The 300 WSM is a cartridge that probably doesn't belong in a CRF and would probably feed better in a PF. Still, mine functions "good enough" for its intended purpose... I may rebarrel it to a 20" bbl'd 350 RM though!
 
 I'm definately a bit of a "purist" (some may say snob!) when it comes to rifles, but there are fundamental, time-proven reasons for this bias. The metallic cartridge is an antiquated technology. P. Mauser worked his ass-off at the dawn of the metallic cartridge to handle that technology... his time honored method has been proven in several world-wars (and lesser skirmishes like the Boer conflict) by multiplied millions of soldiers... when properly applied, it's really beyond intelligent dispute that his action is the most reliable, simple, strong and redundant-ladden system to handle mettalic cartridges as we currently know them.
 
 Happy 4th,
 
 BA

Brad, that is my opinion as well. When the Mauser 98 was developed, it was at the behest of wealthy national governments, for national armies, and the cost per unit was not an issue, so naturally Mauser went all out to make something that would hold up to warfare conditions and last several lifetimes of rugged usage. Winchester 70's (pre-64) came the closest to replicating the most desirable of the Mauser 98's features in a sporting rifle. I have about 15 hunting bolt-action rifles. One is a Remington 725 (push feed). Three others are Weatherbies. One is a Blaser (straight pull), and the others are about 50/50 sporting Mausers (FN and BRNO) and CRF Winchester 70s (three of these were made before 64, two being the "Classic" CRF models). I have never had a problem with the push feed rifles, but strangely I have had a problem with one of the CRF rifles. It was on an Elk hunt in the Colorado Rockies, at about 9,000 feet. Somehow, as I attempted to quietly rack one .270 Winchester round from the magazine into the chamber, the round got ahead of the claw and was pushed into the chamber, not under control. I realized this when I was unable to close the bolt, and immediately pulled back on the bolt handle. The round was stuck in there, and my only backup rifle was a day's ride on horseback away, at camp (and my guide was unarmed), and I'd have to climb down a considerable distance just to get to my horse at that, so I tried everything I could to dislodge the round. Finally, my guide was able to do it. He happened to have a three piece cleaning rod in his backpack. Problem solved, and it never happened again, but the CRF is not flawless, at least not in Classic Winchester 70's. Maybe if the mag had been designed just for the .270 Winchester, this wouldn't have happened. I don't know. Just food for thought.

Well do I have a deal for you! I have a Sako 75 Varmint SS in a laminated stock in 22-250 cal, I don't like the damn thing and I will trade it for a couple of those broken Remingtons. The condition is "as new in the box" So lets see if you want a Sako as bad as you say you do.
 
 Dan

Not sure who your offer is being made to, but like I said, "older Sako's." The M75 definately wouldn't fall into that category. Another "key-start" rifle!
 
 BA

Big Sky,
 
 Do you really want another Key Start (J-Lock) rifle?
 
 I haven't seen the Sako 75 Rifles but would not want a J-Lock of anykind on my rifles. I know you can buy a replacement shroud to remove the bolt lock for a Rem 700.
 
 I think Blaine hit the nail on the head. You are ready for Custom or semi-custom rifles based on the Rem.700 action.
 
 Let us know what you decide.....

I'm not exactly sold on any factory rifle, however, the Remmies have come closer than the others to being right out of the box. I actively shoot 5 of them with pretty good sucess across the board. That said I have gotten a bummer. A stainless fluted Sendero in .300 Win Mag that I traded my brother for. He'd never shot the rifle and it was NIB when I mounted a Leupie on it and headed to the range. Rifle was an honest .5 MOA gun with a 120 second trigger job and making sure the KDF was snug. Upon inspection of the brass I found the rifle had a void in the chamber. That's a chunk of steel missing to you and I. Not enough it would'nt extract but plenty big to draw your attention. Figured I would deep six the barrel and use the action. Closer inspection of the bolt revealed that the very bottom of the bolt head was cracked. Calls to Remington went on and on. They would'nt touch it because of the KDF, McMillan AWR stock, and Jewell trigger. JOY! Sold it.
 
 Now on to perfection in its earthly form the Winchester M70 Stainless Classic in .375 H&H. The vaunted CRF king needed to kill lions and tigers oh my... The ONLY rifle I've ever owned that WOULD NOT FEED RELIABLEY! It's off at Mr. Ricks where everything is being replaced except the basic action and part of the bolt. Could'nt get it on paper at 50 yards with Talleys and a Leupold 1.75-6x32...
 
 Have the feeling I'm going to be a custom rifle slut before long... I'll have my ONE AND ONLY Winchester Custom and then work with my Remingtons which shoot too good to screw with. That said I do love McMillan stocks and Jewell triggers... Custom barrels are an aquired taste I'm working on;-).
 
 Regards, Matt.

I beg your pardon, the Sako 75 is NOT a key start, unless you install the key start parts your self!!
 
 Dan

Dan, you have my pardon.
 
 www.sako.fi
 
 Go to "Hunting Rifles." Next, go to "Sako 75", then go to "Key Concept"... it's all there...
 
 Brad

Sure looks like a Key Start to me.......

What comes next with those key start guns? An engine? [Linked Image]

The Sako rifle comes from the Finns with a little package of parts you can install, this will turn your rifle into a key start. It is not factory installed. I know as I own some of them.
 
 Dan

Post deleted by AFP

I have only witnessed two 700s go bad, a Mountain
 rifle in 7MM-08 that wouldnt do anything right, and a
 sniper rifle that gave up its bolt handle at a range when
 I was stationed in Korea in the late 80s. I do not own
 a 700 at the time being, but I have owned a couple of
 722s and a 721 that I wish that I would have kept plus
 a 788 or two. I cherish the day when the Classic is
 chambered for .358 and I am always on the lookout
 for a "shooter" in .250 Savage or 7X57MM caliber.
 Let us all give good thoughts to Wm Rugers loved
 ones.

Wow Blaine, you are one thin-skinned human being...
 
 Emotional? I'd say you've got the shoe on the wrong foot!
 
 My God, "personal attacks"... where?
 
 Unbelievable...

Yeah, and what about that personal attack against my Remington's heavy trigger and 3.75" groups?!!! Just kidding.

Hawkeye, you're also forgetting my lawsuit-worthy attack on pot-metal parts, LOL!
 
 BA

My sister is better looking than your sister. Your sister uses push feed rifles (grin). Flinch

Post deleted by AFP

Blaine,
 
 Your last post was the most childish thing I've EVER read. Bad day at the office,or what?
 
 Certainly you are of more substance than that ?!!? Noone is THAT thin-skinned(are they).................

How do you guys know each other's names?

Is it not a rather good indicator,that AFP ends every Post with his name(Blaine)?
 
 My preference is...................

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The real stumper is "Brad". [Linked Image]

MM's response had me in stitches,yours made me cry! Too damn funny.
 
 I wonder what Rick Bin's name is?!!? He he haa ha haa..................

Oh yeah.

Eye,
 
 Hard to be the new guy in the locker room. Much lighthearted jesting around these parts,all in good fun,most in good taste(grin).
 
 Actually,there is very little penny ante personal attacks and most get along suprisingly well,considering the extreme difference in personalities and opinions. In fact,it is rather amazing.
 
 Welcome aboard,don't take anything TOO seriously and enjoy the relaxed atmosphere. There is much hands on info,lurking amongst these zanies. Most are both quick and generous,with their findings. It is the best place I have ever found,to hang my hat. I hope that you enjoy both the company and surroundings.
 
 If that isn't to your likin',would you give my finger a little tug,it seems to be stuck.................

And we offer great info/tips on "gunny" shooting type questions....for example I'll be offering a stock bedding seminar online to all takers [Linked Image]

Imagine a bunch of clowns locked into rooms on all corners of the earth....there you have the 24hourcampfire.....
 
 Mike...

I don't want to be addressed again by any of you guys having a good time at my expense. The nerve! What was the subject of this thread again?

Stick,
 
 I don't know what to say. I guess I don't share the same values with as many of you as I thought. That is disappointing, but inevitable. I will not tolerate emotion ridden posts filled with ridicule and the belitting of others. I believe such posts are morally wrong. If no one else here minds those types of posts, then I obviuosly don't belong here. Flying jets and fighting wars is stressful enough without trying swim upstream here.
 
 Blaine

AFP, don't feel bad! Afterall, I'm a PC sissy that can't take some ideas that run contrary to my own (grin). Remember to consider the source...
 
 Hawkeye, appreciate your sense of humor on the subject! Some of us have been hanging out together for 5-6 years and more, so have become pretty familiar with each other. Kinda why when someone new comes in with a nasty attitude, we jump in together whether we agree with the concept or not. Some of us have the patience of Job (E and Stick, to mention a couple), while some get our feathers a bit ruffled at times(me!). I don't mind a contrary opinion in the least, it's the attitude that gets me going. Sorry!

Eye,
 
 I promise to never have fun again(give or take). Set a while and take in the sights.............

Some people have a tendency to get on a high horse, and can't take a little ribbing, it seems.

I think...yes it's true I do occasionally...that Hawkeye was being sarcastic in that last post [Linked Image]

We gotta show him how to do smilies or just write(grin).. [Linked Image]

Blaine...I appreciate your posts a lot I hope you are just dodging floodwaters and a little stressed and not serious about leaving over this thread...unless I really missed something somewhere...Hang around!!!
 
 Mike

AFP,
 
 Don't say nuthin',suck it up and take the world in stride.
 
 "Values" had yet to be discussed,in this thread. "Emotion" can be seen/weighed differently,through different eyes. It is surely subjective. "Morals" are another,nobody has been robbed nor cheated(near as I can tell).
 
 Out of curiousity,just what sorta jet do you fly? Just what sorta armament does she carry? How much flight time did you average,while wagin' War? How many sorties into hostile territory,did they let you fly? Just curious,as I dig aviation in general and know quite a few Military pilots,that fill various roles(from my work). My hopes are,that all is not Classified and you can manage to brag a little on yourself.
 
 I'd rather see you shrug off meaningless differences in opinion,as opposed to taking all your marbles and stompin' home. The swim is upstream,ONLY if you want it to be.
 
 A man can certainly control such minutia. Your mileage may vary,here endeth the sermon...................

Let's see. Do you put a grin in like this [Linked Image]

?

That certainly did not take long. Mr. Hawkeye is now a seasoned pro. Welcome to the club!...................

Thank you. [Linked Image]

Think I'll hit the old sack now.

T R H,
 
 Stick beat me too it but just wanted to say...we are laughing WITH you not at you.
 
 I think you'll fit right in. Add another pea to the pod.
 
 Welcome aboard.

Spike, yeah, "Brad" is a tough one, though I'm often called "Brent" (not sure how that happens) and Germans often call me "Bread." Though I missed Blaine's last post, he's probably got other names figured out for me!
 
 I'm still scratching my head trying to find my "emotion-filled BS posts" that have "personal attacks", that denigrate others and are "morally wrong"... wow, what a load of self-righteous, mumbo-jumbo. Apparently Blaine can't be disagreed with! I thought we were all here to discuss idea's?!?
 
 Blaine, maybe you are having a bad day as you're the one who's now deleted two posts... I stand by what I've written and have tried to lay-out the reasons for (what I know are) my strong convictions. You've still never responded to one criticism excpet to attack me... that's another thing that's got me laughing... you're the one doing all the stone-throwing, name calling, etc... very strange. Remember Blaine, when you're pointing a finger you've got three pointed back at yourself [Linked Image]

Shoot anything you want friend... like I said, this is all "fun and games"... except, of course, when it comes to safety.
 
 I sincerely hope you have a better day tomorrow...
 
 Bard, er, Brad

Mike,
 YOU SIR, broke the camels back with the "clowns locked in a room" comment about this place.
 
 I, am not a CLOWN my friend, I am a children's entertainment specialist! To think you would refer to a lincensed, educated, and bonded CES as a mere clown shows your ignorance!
 
 Matt, CES.
 
 Insert door slamming. Sound of big floppy shoes stomping down the hallway. The telltale sound of the bir red nose being squeezed is followed by profanity that would make a sailor blush, a crash, and scuffling on the floor. I only hope no other wheelchair bound seniors decide to squeeze my nose;-).

LOL, LMAO. Thanks for all the warm welcomes. I've been having a great time here, and look forward to more of the same.

Matt glad I was able to make you laugh....
 
 We have come to the annual heat of the year, much like the annual breaking point on cabin fever, when people get unusually testy.....
 
 I will probably fall victim to it myself and go off the deep end on some undeserving person or post...It just kinda happens I guess...
 
 I gotta come up with something on Flinch [Linked Image]

after that Gorilla on the right jab (BOG :-).......
 
 Mike

It's definitely summertime around here.
 
 May I suggest, in general, a little less caffeine.
 
 Now I'm going to go kick the dog.
 
 Rick

With all the stresses associated with being a space shuttle commander (extremes in G force magnifications, weightlessness, etc..), I find this thread very diverting. [Linked Image]

OK. Now a big group hug. But, does that still mean that all of my Remington's suck? I'm so confused...

Hawkeye, I too have a confession... my real name is not "Brad"... I'll admit it here and now... I'm actually George W. Bush (didn't think I could string sentences together that well did you!). What with the pressures of state and the war I've been persuing, I'm a bit stressed and come here for relaxation away from all the DC types...
 
 Funny and the thing lost in all this, if a guy doesn't want to hear divergent and strong opinions he probably should shield his "virginal" mind by not logging onto a thread titled...
 
 "REMINGTON"S SUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
 
 But that's just one man's personal attack, er, opinion (heck, now I'm confused!)
 
 Brad

Okay I get it now, Remington's don't suck, they just cost a whole heck of a lot of money to keep from sucking. [Linked Image]

Did I mention I'm sending one off to the gunsmith today (you know so it won't keep sucking.)
 Oh and just FYI, Big Stick doesn't use his real name because Moe and Curly said they wouldn't associate with him anymore if he did.

Brad,
 
 You asked where these personal attacks are. Here are some that you directed at me.
 
 "You seem to be a victim of the idea if something has hasn't happened to you it can't happen."
 "I suppose you believe their "three-ring's-of-steel" promo. "
 "I suggest you've bought into Remington's marketing, have comitted yourself financially and now have a "stake" in seeing things YOUR way."
 "Wow Blaine, you are one thin-skinned human being... "
 "Funny and the thing lost in all this, if a guy doesn't want to hear divergent and strong opinions he probably should shield his "virginal" mind by not logging onto a thread titled... "
 
 (BTW, my reference to your above comments are what Stick referred to as childish.)
 
 The above statements purpose is to belittle--not logically attack ideas. I believe debating a topic using ridicule and sarcasm is pointless and indicative of a weak argument. It is an old tactic. When a person can't debate using logic and facts, they resort to emotion. I enjoy a spirited debate--when it avoids the personal attacks. Brad, you are just not the kind of person who is beneficial for me to interact with. You provide little new information, and only seem to know how to tear others down.
 
 
 
 To All.
 
 Here are my thoughts on rifle actions. You have probably seen them before, so you know they are not as Brad claims.
 
 There are plusses and minuses to any rifle action. I have reviewed Mike Walker's words and the internal Rem documents Augustius was kind enough to send me. I think Rem should have implemented the "idiot proof" trigger/safety design they developed a long time ago (it was NOT M-70 style--Mike Walker wanted to put a boss on the safety lever that would prevent the trigger from moving while the safety was being released. If you know how a 700 trigger is constructed, you can easily see how that would work). I have had an AD with one of my 700s. It was because I was stupid and had my finger on the trigger when I released the safety. I have tested this on many different brands of rifles (including M-70s), and they ALL will drop the firing pin if you have your finger on the trigger when releasing the safety. The "flaw" with a 700 is it's too easy to have your finger on the trigger while releasing the safety. I know this not because I read the words of some gunsmith, but because I repeatedly tested it.
 
 I currently have an M-70 that has the most dangerous trigger I have ever seen. If the trigger is set less the 6 lbs, it will release the firing pin if you drop the rifle on it's butt from a foot in the air. NONE of my 700s do that, nor my 721, nor my Model 7.
 
 Military M-98 Mausers have many flaws. The receivers are made of low strength, heat treated carbon steel. An excessively hot load can set the bolt back in the receiver and ruin the rifle. The magazines are short, and modifying them to handle 375 H&H length cartridges doesn't always work (I had such an M-98). Many commercial M-98s are flat dangerous. While they are made of good Chrome Moly steel, they are broached on both sides of the receiver ring. The extractor plugs one of those openings, but the other provides a path for gas straight back into the shooters face. I personally saw this. A guy with a Mk-10 put the wrong ammo in it. It blew hot gas and powder residue all over his face. He was dumb, but a 700s HAVE kept shooters from being injured when making the same dumb mistake. There have been a few instances of bolt handles coming off 700s. They have been rare, especially when you consider 4 million 700s. If you know even a little bit about welding/silver solder/etc, you know that a properly attached bolt handle won't come off without severe force--that's why these types of failures are rare.
 
 The pre-64 M-70 has poor gas control, and is prone to blowing extractors off under severe overloads. This has happened many times, often with injuries resulting. Further, many newer M-70s have feeding problems. WSMs are especially prone to this, and 375 H&H and 416 Rem chamberings can fail to eject.
 
 An M-700 will blow the barrel before the actions lets go. I have personal knowledge of that. It controls gas extremely well. The extractor is strong enough to rip the head of a stick case--been there, done that. All my 700s feed flawlessly, even when the rifle is sideways or upside down. This is because the magazine follower is what controls feeding on any bolt-action, even a CRF. Mess up the follower, and a CRF will jam as quickly as a push feed. Yes, I have tested that.
 
 The only advantage to a properly functioning CRF is it is much harder to get a jam when you "short-stroke" it. I personally have never had a problem with short stroking any rifle action. Mauser did invent the CRF to reduce short-stroking, but outside of the scared teenagers fighting in the trenches using Mausers first rifles, I know of few instances of short stroking being a problem. Obviously if a guy has a problem with that, then he should use a CRF. Our military snipers have been using 700 based action since 1969 and don't seem to have the problems so many claim always happen when you use a 700.
 
 I have had four CRFs. One of them--a P-17 Enfield, fed okay, but had notoriously poor gas control. The Interarms M-98 in 270 I had just wouldn't feed from the magazine. My converted Military M-98 in 8mm Rem Mag did not reliable feed either. The M-97 in 7mm Mauser was okay, just not smooth while feeding. So much for the great Mausers.
 
 Now I happen to think M-98s and M-70s can be made into excellent rifles, and many of the flaws can be fixed. However, they still have their limitations like any action. If you get a barrel obstruction in a pre-'64 and shoot the thing, you may get injured. If you try to feed a round directly into the chamber of an unmodified M-98, it will get stuck and need to be rodded out. If you modify the extractor so that doesn't happen (like the M-70), then you lose extractor gripping power. Are these things a big deal? No. Knowing your rifle, proper handling, and sane handloads prevent that stuff from happening.
 
 No, I'm not having a "bad day" or anything like that. I have always defended when others attack, and have always taken issue when people attack other people. Now attacking ideas is fair game and I have always encouraged that. Further, what works for one person doesn't always work for someone else. Often, what one person rejects is what someone else embraces. It is pure lunacy if a person can't see that. If there are those here on this board that think Brad's type of interaction is acceptable, then I obviously don't belong here anymore. This is my last post. I just don't have the time for this anymore. For those of you who share my values--and there are a few--there is always e-mail ([email protected]).
 
 Blaine

Blaine;
 
 Very good post, well thought out and informative.

MS,
 
 I currently own five Jeep Grand Cherokees and have found that you can drive a stock Jeep most places that you'd need to air drop the competition. What does that prove? Nothing, except that I've had really good luck, or you've had really bad luck, or that our needs/expectations are different, so the way that we grade the outcome is different.
 
 Like most of the other 100 + posts in this thread, they don't prove anything, they just express opinion and relate experiences each of us has had.
 
 I like Remington Models 700. I've never had a problem with one. That doesn't mean that I won't, but my reality is that I haven't and I don't think that they suck. Heck, I don't even think that the Model 710 is so bad and I can accept the lock, given our litigious society. From my point of view, my opinion, Remington got screwed in the shotgun barrel suit. I mean, give me a break! If you plug the barrel of your Model 1100 with mud and then pull the trigger, the barrel is likely to burst and you are likely to get injury, no matter how high quality the steel is or how well the barrel was engineered. People do stupid things all the time and find a soft jury made up of people who don't know crap about the point of litigation to reward them for the spin that their hired gun attorney puts on the issue.
 
 I'm sorry, I lost my focus, just like this whole thread.
 
 AFP, don't quit. Take some time to cool off and get back into the saddle. Although this isn't a competition, an AF Officer should know that quitters never win and winners never quit. Get over it, if for no other reason than that this is a virtual reality and it only exists if we let it.
 
 JMHO
 
 Bearrr264

Blaine... you either have a very loose hand with facts, you have a poor memory or you're flatly a liar.
 
 EVERYTHING you posted of mine above was after you said my first post was "BS" and full of "Personal Attacks", etc... None of my initial statement was directed to you, however, regardless, you felt some self-righteous, twisted burden of responsibility to "set me straight." Of course you also conveniantly went back and deleted all your posts... how interesting!
 
 Blaine, you're still a thin-skinned person and you can't hide it... you really ought to lighten up a bit as you'll give yourself a stroke if you continue to take yourself so seriously!
 
 I sincerely hope you have a better day tomorrow!

I agree with Blaine.
 
 Dan

Blaine.

Sky,
 
 Still patiently awaiting the "Remington Sucks Sale"(grin)............
 
 
 
 Blaine,
 
 I guess I should have elaborated,so as to clarify,when I said(and meant)"childish". You are MOST predictable,when someone disagrees with your stance.
 
 First comes a heated retort. It is quickly followed by a lengthy reply,that touches on little that is pertinent to the initial discussion and the coup de grace,is the "I'm a Jet Pilot and have issues" routine.
 
 Basically,"Blah,blah-blah-blah. Blah,blah blahhhh. I'm a Jet Pilot and am under stress". Then you delete heated retort and threaten to take all marbles and immediately run home.
 
 So when I mentioned "childish",it was in the context of your 3rd grade antics steered towards trying to sway the thinking of grown men,who only disagree with something you had posted. "Childish" in the repeated idle threat of the "agree with me pleasssse,or I'll run away",type mentality.
 
 "Childish" in the oft touted Title of "Jet Pilot",as it connotates that you are a brazen Fighter Jet Jockey,who has amassed countless coup upon countless enemy aircraft,while butt naked,out of fuel and ammo and at night without instrumentation.
 
 That despite the fact you NEVER delve into your specific aviation capacities,the aircraft employed or assorted other specifics. You simply paint a broad picture and allow assumptions to be made of your gallant Service,flying by the seat of your pants in hostile territories and stressed to the max as only a man on such a mission COULD be.
 
 As much as you like to analyze minutia,I am CERTAIN that if you were a Fighter Jock(a Jet Pilot I would naturally associate with having superior skills and senses,as well as having more than his share of stress),we would have heard ALL about it.
 
 I don't buy it.
 
 I'm thinkin' your Gallant/Brazen/Heroic/Death Defying/Stressful Feats,are largely imagined. My guess is,you've a mundane capacity,that largely lacks spark of any kind. To combat that,you come here and toss the "Jet Pilot Thing" around,like it were something special.
 
 Some,would deem hauling rubber dog [bleep] from Hong Kong,in a transport plane,as "stressful" duty. Most would not.
 
 
 In a word. Grow up...................

Stick, ummmm, that was TWO words. Sorry couldn't resist.

That WAS on purpose,was simply curious to see if anyone was payin' any attention.
 
 Move to the head of the Class(grin).................

AFP, has no one in the United States Air Force ever spoken to you using colorful language? It just seems unlikely that a seasoned AFP, with extensive combat experience no less, would be so sensative to such, ever so slightly, harsh expressions of opinion. I'm not sayng it isn't true, but it just seems incongruous somehow. Besides, as I remember it, you labelled some fairly mild language as personal attacks and immorality (implying that Brad was some kind of reprobate), and it was only after that that Brad started using the particularly colorful lingo with you. Of course, the record is now conveniently erased.

Anybody want to see me in my new sequen thong? It is green and says Remington on the...um....well you know...the back strap. The damn thing chaffs my anus something fearce. My wife keeps telling me to grow up and buy a speedo, but I like the dang thing from time to time, just like my Remingtons. Hmm...I think I will go buy another Sako tomorrow and ditch this stinking green thong (grin). Now, where was I? Flinch

Talk about a thread taking a bizarre twist....Stick are you and Blaine secretly orchestrating this by e-mail or is this for real???
 
 Flinch.....well, dang what's a guy to say about that....???
 
 Mike [Linked Image]

Rabid,
 
 I simply offered MY opinion. I doubt anyone else will see things in the same light I do,be it upon this matter or any other topic of discussion.
 
 Just had my fill of Soap Opera semantics and chimed in.
 
 I would NOT know what to say,in regards to Flinch's skivvies though(grin).............

That's what I thought, but it kinda caught me by suprise....I like straight shooting! Say it like you mean it....
 
 Rabid, out until Sunday.....Y'all behave [Linked Image]

Flinch--
 
 What the hell happened? My God, man...stop the madness. Get that thing out of the crack of your ass, it's cutting off the circulation to your brain. [Linked Image]

Yeah, this whole thing turned real weird all of a sudden....could be the mental image of Flinch's butt-floss. Think I'm going to be ill.

Ouch.
 
 And ouch.
 
 Rick

Every time I start to post on this thread, something keeps coming up- Blaine upset about some issue, probably brought on by Remington issues, Bard (or is is Brad) humbling our favorite Air Force Pilot with a few well chosen words, Stick setting the tone for a family reunion and maybe a group hug, and now Flinch and his mental picture sure to upset the strongest of stomaches (unless, of course, you're into that sort of thing) [Linked Image]

I knew there was a reason I hang around here- where else can a guy get entertainment this good for free? LOL [Linked Image]

- Sheister

Stick, I actually agree with everything you say about our good buddy Blaine. Heck, I was laboring under the idea that I was the only one who saw it. He's quick to claim the moral high ground, then snipe from that postion. I DO remember him leaving a while back in a huff... "gonna take my ball and bat and go home!" Always thought that was weird. In private e-mail's to me some time back Blaine had to carefully drop his Air Force pilot status (still rather vague and dark). I think he's into the uniform and control... probably loves being saluted and isn't used to things not going his way.
 
 Funny, my father (who is also my best friend) was a Korean-era USAF fighter pilot. He left the service around 1954 and flew as a bush pilot and flight instructor. He then was hired by a major US airline and retired after 33 years as a 747 Captain. His was a distiguished and safe career with well over 25,000 flying hours. The thing is he never talked about any of it or "wore it on his sleeve." If someone asked what he did for a living he told them he drove an 18-Wheeler... he never elaborated that those eighteen wheels were attatched to a 747. He always considered his job that of a "glorified bus driver." He told me he actually thought many pilots were a bunch of left-brained, anal-retentive, egotistical control freaks that often made for poor company in the cockpit or at a dinner table. Course' he never has taken himself too seriously and often introduced himself over the PA as "Captain Art Deco"... generally only the gay passengers got that joke (Flinch may understand it tho)!
 
 Stick, I've gotta say, though my tastes run (sometimes) differently than yours in rifles, I've always appreciated your light-hearted approach to all this biz and you DO live in the second-best state in the US!
 
 Best Regards All,
 
 The Bard

Ummmmmmmm, Flinch.......
 
 When I come see you this weekend, would it be too much to ask that you -- well -- that you keep the thong locked away until I've left?????
 
 BTW, maybe prom dresses for our pd hunt should wait until we know each other better? [Linked Image]

Flinch, now I know where you got your handle... ouch!

Sheister, they don't call me "The Bard" for no reason!

Here's a joke even AFP can appreciate...
 
 What's the difference between a fighter pilot and God?
 .
 .
 .
 .
 .
 .
 .
 .
 .
 
 .
 God doesn't think he's a fighter pilot.
 
 [Linked Image]

Bearrr264, my point EXACTLY! Thank you! I know that my personal opinion of Chrysler products is not on par with what most have experienced. Sometimes "stuff" happens. Same with Sky and Remington. When you've had more than your fair share of problems with any products, it's hard to overlook it and keep buying the same. Having a B.S. degree in mathematics I can tell you the odds of hitting another defective Chrysler in a row is minimal, but I can't bring myself to do it given my history. At the same time, I've had such good luck with Ford that the probability is rising that the next one will be a lemon, yet I keep buying them. Smart? Dumb? Who knows?

BW
 And what separates flight attendants from the scum of the Earth?
 
 
 
 
 The cockpit door.
 art

MS
 A degree in Math and you think your odds are changing? Random events are random events... ;-)
 
 We can argue about this as long as you promise not to mention your panties... ;-)
 art

Rick, my strong opinions about rifles are definately that... "strong opinions." They are also hard-won opinions founded, I believe, in solid logic.
 
 I don't shy away from expressing my views. Having said that however, my basis for respecting another person is not based one-whit on the type of rifle they prefer or their views on the subject... that'd be failry shallow, don't you think? Heck, my elk-hunting partner uses a battered old M700 in 7mm Rem Mag that he bought used in 1970. He always has it with him on the ranch and uses it on everything from coyotes to elk. He's deadly with that thing, though he does covet my 22" bbl'sd 338 Win Mag because of toothy bears! He thinks my prejudice against the M700 is unfounded, but it has nothing to do with our friendship. We like kicking idea's around!
 
 I've owned over forty different centerfire rifles and handloaded for over 25 cartridges. By some standards that's a lot, by other standards it's a piss in the pot. I like rugged stuff. I've been a long-distance backpacker since 1975 and have logged thousands of trail miles, including a 2 1/2 month trip (wtih a friend) on the Appalachian Trail at the ripe age of fifteen (I turned sixteen that summer..1977)... I appreciate simple, stout stuff. The M70 fills the bill in every way for me.
 
 I gave you that little bio just to introduce myself a bit...
 
 In case you weren't sure I'm really NOT George Dubya...

Sitka, you are correct -- IF you look at the events individually. Look at a coin toss. You've just thrown heads. What are the odds that the next toss will yield heads? 50% -- same as with the previous toss.
 
 But, before you've tossed the first coin, what are the odds of throwing 2 heads in a row? 25%.
 
 So, perspective is even important in mathematics! What are the odds that I'll buy another POS from Chrysler (assuming I was stupid enough to buy another [Linked Image]

)? Same as before. What are the odds of buying 4 in a row? Astronomically low. If I wasn't such an emotional guy, I'd be running to the jeep dealer first thing in the morning [Linked Image]

!

Oh, and Dangit Sitka! I was just going to mention how nicely my pink lace panties go with a black stocked, stainless steel Remington!

I was under the impression that he flew a C-130 or some type of similar cargo plane(jet).
 
 As to the issue at hand, Blaine seems to be well informed and dug in in his beliefs. With something as stupid as an internet message board (no offense Rick), it seems silly to get so worked up. If you arent having fun here, dont come. Keep it in perspective and keep in mind that everyone has their faults.
 
 That said, most people will never be so stupid as to overload their Ruger and burn theirself beyond recognition. Similarly, most people wont throw their Remington off of a building onto its bolt handle or to point it at someone while turning off the safety.

To All,
 
 I've enjoyed the wit and candor,this AM. 'Twas an entertaining read,to go hand in hand with this morning's coffee. You guys crack me up.
 
 Life is too short to worry about stuff that doesn't matter. Stress kills,laughter does not. I've found it much easier to control NOT worrying about meaningless substance,than NOT howl with laughter at a great joke. That is my recipe for longevity(I ain't dead yet),along with copious amounts of salt.
 
 Good day,I gotta go battle some trees................

MS,
 
 Wow! A BS in math is most impressive to a guy who had to take calculus 101 three times to get a double bogie and move on!
 
 I have had great luck with Jeep GC's. We owned two of the early body style Explorers and loved them both, but I was disappointed by the design flaw that caused them to rust out in front of the rear wheel well. The second body style didn't move me, but the current body style is nice and I might talk my wife out of her 1994 GC and into a 2002 Mercury Montaineer.
 
 This must be the longest thread in 24hourcampfire history! When will the fun ever end?
 
 Sincerely,
 
 Bearrr264
 
 PS If you had a 1993 GC Wagoneer in Green with fake wood decals on the side, you could stalk deer from the comfort of puffy leather seat and climate control.

You know it's a good thing my students are gone for the summer and not likely to read this thread. Otherwise they would be asking you all, "Hey what'cha smoking? Can I have some?" It's covered everything from sucky Remington's to Blaine, to Flinch's thong. I'd say it's drifted just a tad. [Linked Image]

Yup the topic drifted farther as is progressed must of had a low BC, kinda like a light bullet out of a .30/06 or .270win. BTW which is more better a 30/06 or .270...?:).pak

This thread kind of reminds me of the silky pair of lacey panties hanging on my powder measure in my reloading room. The wifey put them there to remind me not to stay up too late reloading. Nothing like a constant reminder of more important things in life. I don't ever want to take them off the measure. I kinda like them hanging there like a trophy. (and yes Muley, you are sleeping in that room with said pair of panties...but you will be bringing your own....right?). Muley, you don't play fair. You know you have been bugging me about the green thong. I know you want to try it out with your pink prom dress. I am gonna sleep with my back to the wall. You scare me (wink). I do kind of favor your blue pumps though. They are a might sexay. Flinch

That reminds me of an archery elk hunt four of us went on, the plan was for a two week stay out in the woods. After a buddy found a pair of thong panties his wife stashed in his sleeping bag to make sure he didn't forget her he bugged out and went home after day four. Think it drove him crazy.

OK, now I have this image -- think of that picture of Sky and his buddy behind their rifles....
 
 Now, replace those two with two guys (one 6'4" and the other even taller), one wearing a pink prom dress and the other, I don't know -- maybe yellow? Both with 2 days beard growth. Now put it on video with them shooting pdogs at 600 yards. 103 degrees in the shade and no shade in sight...
 
 Hell, if I wasn't one of the dudes, I might just pay to watch that video! [Linked Image]

Oh, and blue pumps with a pink dress -- I don't THINK so!
 .
 .
 .
 .
 .
 .
 
 I'll wear the white ones with the bow on the toe... (grin)

Spike -- did she wash the racing stripe out first????

We're gaining down hill momentum quickly!
 
 
 MS,
 
 My best guess (he wouldn't share) is they came equiped with color and odor.

Man, you guys are starting (?) to scare me! Besides, that would have to be the 2 ugliest prom dates in the history of proms!
 
 Now I'm going to have to ask my wife why she doesn't pack nice little "surprises" for me when I go hunting. You guys sure you didn't pack that stuff yourselves just for excuse to get out of camp after a few days with deranged characters like you? (of course I don't include myself in this definition) [Linked Image]

How is it I always seem to get involved in these threads when they are headed for the bottom of the barrel? [Linked Image]

- Sheister

Spike, in that case -- make it a 3 week trip for me!
 
 Ooops! Back on topic: REMINGTONS SUCK!!!!!!!!!
 
 BTW Bearrr264, just don't ask me too many math questions. There was a time when I thought it was fun. Quite frankly, now I don't [Linked Image]

! I was a weird kid. The only kid in our H.S. on both the varsity basketball team AND the math team. But hey, we finished 5th in state! Unfortunately, in the annual math tournament. Not basketball. Didn't exactly get me anywhere with the chicks, if you can imagine [Linked Image]

.

Sheister, per your last statement: kinda makes you wonder.....

Funny how things change. Now when I come home from a hunting trip I give my wife my underwear with special colors and oders. For some reason I don't think it has the same effect on her as hers might have on me.
 
 
 Where were we again....oh yeah...Remington's.....
 
 I bought a left hand Win. 70 to see what all the hype was about and why it was the only gun to own. Sorry, I don't see it. The thing drives me nuts... have to have a round down in the box to feed. The safety sucks, takes a gorilla tumb to push it forward for release. The action is about as smooth as a porcupines tail. The machining marks adds a beautiful touch and texture. The wood stock scratches if you look at it wrong. My cleaning guide tube gets stuck on the ejection tab and is a major pain to get it out. I could go on but let's just say I don't get why others like them so much, I must be missing something.

For big game animals up to elk, I like a .270 Winchester. Like 150 grain Grand Slams on the big animals, and 130 grain Hornadies on the smaller critters. If your hunting involves larger bears and moose, probably the .30-06 has the advantage, because you have the 180, 190, 200 and 220 grainers to resort to. I would think that the 200 grain Grand Slam would be awesomely effective on large bears, even in close cover. I don't know if Nitrix loads them though.
 
 Oh, and Remington's suck!!! [Linked Image]

TRH,
 
 Do you have any experience with the .270 150g Grand Slam on elk. That is the same set up I use but my experience is limited to deer.

Where do I find a wife like that???? Mine would laugh if I asked her to do my laundry after a hunting trip.
 
 Oh, yeah -- Remington's. THEY SUCK! Winchester too! I'm getting so confused...
 
 Tell me again, which rifles DON'T suck please!

Sorry. Not first hand. Heard that it does a number on them though. I actually took 130 grain grand slams on an elk hunt once, but never got a chance to put one actually in an elk. Got to be good though. Tough bullets, yet not so tough that they won't expand and make a nice big permanent hole.
 
 How do they work on deer. Seems to me deer don't have enough flesh and bone to warrent a grand slam. Expand well? I expect you get all the penetration you need, and then some.

MS,
 
 Well, see...the difference between you and me is when I come home from a hunting trip I smell like roses.
 
 You on the other hand, you could probably knock a buzzard off a $hit-wagon. [Linked Image]

I never had a Winchester that sucked. Don't know what they are putting out today, but mine are real shooters, and function great.

I'm limited to one whitetail and it knocked it down on the spot....pretty good sized hole going in and an even bigger one going out. Obvioulsy didn't find it so can't comment on what it looked like. I did shoot one into a sand bag and it essentially blew up, all I found were pieces of copper.

I'm having problems with all of my rifles:
 
 My Weatherby's refuse to fire until after I pull the trigger; My Ruger has to be rezeroed EVERY time I change scopes; My TC Encore requires me to replace the emptied shell after every shot; my mauser still requires me to cycle the action after every shot, and the darn Browning makes a loud noise every time I shoot it. When are these manufacturers EVER going to get it right.
 
 By the way, finding your wife's panties in your sleeping bag
 IS A WHOLE LOT BETTER THAN WAKING UP WITH YOUR BUDDY's BOXERS IN YOUR BAG. (Especially if he thinks that the men in
 'Deliverance' were merely misunderstood). (THIS IS JUST AN ASSUMPTION).

Spike, it must have held together pretty good if it went all the way through. That says something. Seems to have expanded too, or there wouldn't have been such a big hole on the far side. How far was the animal (wondering about how fast the bullet was going at the time), and about how much did it weigh?

they are going 2900fps out of the muzzle and the shot was about 150 yards away. The deer was running up hill and at an angle on the opposite hillside.
 
 Here's a picture:
 
 http://www.oregon-outback.com/whitetailscan.jpg
 
 You can see the bullet hole next to the binoculars. The shot was high but angle down.

2nd, good one!
 
 For some REALLY strange reason I'm suddenly reminded of a story. If you want something "on topic" you might want to skip this....
 
 In college, I had a roommate who had a tendency to wear my stuff if it was more convenient than his own. Sooooo, one day my girlfriend stops by and drops off my jacket that she'd borrowed for a week or two and leaves it hanging on the chair by my desk. Enter my buddy, who is late for a class and grabs my jacket from the chair and runs up to the hill. He's about ten minutes late for class and as he walks in the door he absentmindedly puts his hand in the jacket pocket. The whole class turns to the back of the room to see who is strolling in so late. The prof stops his sermon as he waltzes in. He finds something in the pocket and thinking I left him a roll of lifesavers in there, he excitedly whips it out -- thinking he made a big score!
 
 Now the timing is perfect, 'cus he whips it out right as he walks in and the prof stops and the whole class turns around -- and it's not lifesavers -- it's a Kotex!
 
 The whole class, even the prof bust out laughing. He simply shook his head, said it wasn't worth trying to explain, stuffs the "lifesavers" back in the pocket and takes his seat...
 
 Oh, wait -- REMINGTON'S SUCK!

Spike,
 
 Just between you and me, but I'd clean my weapon really well before I went home, so that I was sure that my wife didn't think that I smelled like anyone named Rosie! Or, I guess that you could use a good cover scent and hope for the best. But wives know, oh ya, they know!
 
 Wow, what a full service web site, I wonder what Dr. Ruth's handle is? Probably Big Stick!
 
 Laughingly yours,
 
 Bearrr264
 
 PS However, I was thinking that, if you're ever hunting down in the rural southeast and some hillybilly asks you to remove "dem panties, too!" as in "Deliverance", you could whip out a pair of your wife's underwear, rather than removing your own. But the question remains, can you squeal like a pig?

This certainly wouldn't be the point to get into the "Push Feed" vs. "Controlled Feed" debate. How about defensive loads for "pig squealers"?

2nd,
 
 Boy, you sure make it HARD for a guy to keep a STRAIGHT face! I think that we've moved over into the area of lubricants and that's all I'm going to say on that subject. I wonder if Imperial Sizing Wax would............., oh never mind!
 
 Please stop!
 
 Bearrrly264

Very good to see that this place has returned to normal!...............

Sky,
 
 Beings you've had a little time to stew on your recent bout of poor luck,I'm sorta curious.
 
 I know you've shot Remingtons that don't suck and I don't doubt you for a second,in the relating of your experiences with less than sterling examples of the same.
 
 Soooo,with that insight and your recent good fortune allowing you to play with some seriously nice(and accurate)Irons,I have a question.
 
 What would be your go to Make and Model,taking all of those experiences into account? I'll narrow it down to an off the shelf factory rifle as your first choice. The second choice can be as imaginative as you think your Lovin' Bride would allow you to scheme(grin).
 
 Interested in your findings and the reasons for it.................

Does a Dakota 76 count as an off the shelf factory rifle?

Stick,
 
 My take on Big Sky, is that he's a 100% Browning A-Bolt man. He'll not be denied...
 
 [Linked Image]

Eye,
 
 Yes it certainly do,in my book..........
 
 
 BW,
 
 OUCH!!!.................(grin)

Only problem with the Dakota 76 is that you tend to cringe at the thought of taking it out of its velvet-lined case, where it might come into contact with the elements. [Linked Image]

I've really got to get over that.

Quick comment on three subjects--
 Remingtons- I have a 700 in 270 that is such a POS that I fully intend to drop it into a deep lake someday, I am afraid to let my kids have it and would be ashamed to sell it to someone
 Blain- I have bumped heads with him on another board, and have had doubts about his claims, he seems unsuitable for such a position- but since being here I have been impressed with his knowledge of firearms
 Jeeps- I have an old CJ7 that will climb just about anything short of a tree, but I'm not sure I would want to drive it up Muleys road after a Colorado winter storm

Hawkeye, I've always had a "thing" for Savage 99's.
 
 About ten years ago I found a 99EG (built in 1956) that was in 100% new and unfired condition (chambered in 308 Win). This was one of the factory "drilled and tapped" models with the "Savage 99" logo moved down on the side of the receiver. I bought it for $350! To keep it "traditional" I bought one of Leupold's then new 2.5x "Alaskan" scopes (7/8" steel tube) and mounted it on top in Redfield jr. mounts. It looked right out of the 1956 edition of "Guns Digest!"
 
 This rifle also shot wonderfully... I constantly got 3/4" groups with 150 grain handloads... problem was the thing was absolutely unblemished and pristine... the thought of dragging it around and mashing it made me sick so I sold it to a 99 collector (wish I hadn't done that!).
 
 Now, all I own are stainless 70's stocked in "African Walnut" (fiberglass)!
 
 Bard

Stick, stop trying to change the subject from panties back to guns. You haven't been out in the woods long enough yet (grin). Hey Muley, if you get cold down there in my reloading room, you can barrow my fur lined jock. It is the warmest "sleeping bag" I have ever used. Kinda warm and fuzzy too. Oh, and Grand Slams suck! They are blunt and shed velocity worse than a flying railroad tie. Flinch

After reading this thread I sure am glad I stuck with my old (1920's & 30's) Winchesters and that cheap ol' Griffin & Howe custom Mauser circa 1929. Them and my two Winnie lever guns ALWAYS work! Not to mention the Winchester 62A now in it's third generation in the family, Oh well guess I got lucky.
 
 Of course if you just want to get rid of them I believe the trigger guards are big enough to get an anchor line through and my son could use em for anchors on his flats boat! That's a joke son! LOL

T LEE, don't you know that Mauser 98s have weak and dangerous actions compared to Model 700 Remingtons? [Linked Image]

Hope you go easy on it.

I know, I never put more than 100 or so rounds through it a year. And my son only shoots it about once a month. After all it is 73 years old and we would not want to abuse it. LOL
 
 I wonder how many thousand rounds have been fired in it since it was built, it might be getting ready to let go on us any time now!
 
 OH YEAH! I forgot to mention it is an over powered 30-06 caliber for such a weak action! They really should have built it in .22WRF at most right?

Big Stick, that's a fair question but awfully tough to answer, well at least the first part. To be perfectly honest the only lower end rifle I'm even slightly considering is a Winchester Stealth in .308. Pretty hard to find anything to not like about them except the safety, but that's a small thing that I can adjust to. Moving up the scale slightly I fondled a new Weatherby Super Varmiter today. Ummmm, that Weatherby was pretty nice and I'm thinking I may have to have one before too long but in an Accumark or Super Big Game of course it will be in .257 Weatherby. (Is there any other Weatherby calibers?)

On the custom end of things I'm really wanting a GA Precision Rock rifle waaaaaay more than is healthy. However my beer-budget income will likely dictate I settle for a clone as near as possible. Yes, it will be on a Remington action. I still like their actions over all, but I'm just a little more than fed up with my poor luck lately. The rings and mounts just arrived today for that .257 you sent me. I'll get it put together and be shooting in the near future. I have high hopes for good things. If all goes well I have an action just waiting for a new barrel.

Whewwwwwww!
 
 There's hope for you yet(grin). Just makin' sure you weren't goin' off the deep end on me!
 
 I'm gonna build a rifle I believe you'll very much like. It will be "The Boulder"(grin). Rem700 long action based. Badger bottom metal,TS&S base/rings(clipslotted,as they are coming on line shortly),Hart S/S 1-10",#7 fluted,in 300Winny and 25" long. The stock will be an HTG,I'm thinkin' Woodland or Desert camo,heavy-filled,Decelerator and flushcups. Rifle Basix trigger,Tyler trigger shoe(love those fat triggers)and Leupie 3.5-10X. All metal matte black.
 
 That blueprint has been in my mind,for a long while and I've debated barrel maker,bases/rings and specific chambering countless times. I think the aforementioned,will be the final blueprint(unless I change my mind again).
 
 Now noone tell Big Momma,cuz it might be her Xmas present!................

That certainly sounds like a fine plan. Only one more thing would make it perfect. You should plan on coming down here for it's maiden voyage. Plains deer or antelope would be the perfect host for that set up. I think you'll very much like that Hart barrel, they sure make me look good anyway.

Sounds like a rifle any woman would love for Christmas.

I'm soooooo tempted to go PacNor 3-groove. A pard will have his rebuilt 7STW back,in a couple days. It will be wearin' a PacNor #2 contour,S/S SuperMatch,1-10",3-groove that is 26" long. I can taste it!
 
 I'm thinkin' work is going to take me very late in the year,with even a slight bit of help from the weather. If that's the case,I'll try to make plans for next Fall('03) in your neck of the woods. You can shoot The Boulder,I'll tote the 257Wby!.................

Well you know the door is always open if you are in town. Oh and the hunting and finding something to shoot at is always good too.

Obliged all the way around...................

Hey guys sorry to extend this thread, it looks like it's been fun (BIG GRIN), but I do have some concerns. I've only owned my model 700 for a few years. Yah, I had heard all the issues with Remingtons but disregarded them until last year. I was hunting with a buddy of mine who had a misfire while we were loading on the beach. This isn't what bothered me. What I was most disheartened with was the fact that: one he almost put a whole in our boat (a long way from home); and two, because he was afraid to have a round in (perfectly logical) missed the trophy blacktail of a lifetime while walking across a muskeg. (the deer jumped up TEN FEET in front of him) So the question I have is, how long do you think I have till she goes sour? I've taken good care of her, aside from throwing her down the mountain on a goat hunt or two (grin). A guy at work says his brother works for Remington and to send the gun in for any problems, at no charge. I don't know, not much in this world is free anymore. Anyhow, I love my 700. My only other experiences with Remingtons are shotguns. Any, and ALL, advice greatly apreciated!
 
 -TD-

Hawkeye, is your rifle a pre 82' model that locks the bolt down when the safety is engaged? The pre-82' 700 model is the one Remington's "fix" is geared towards. Problem is, they don't replace the trigger, so the potential for problems remains. The only real fix is to have an aftermarket trigger installed. My smith, Dave Gentry, uses a lot of "RifleBasix" triggers and maintains they're a good, safe and economical after-market trigger for the 700. There are plenty of other's too, though they can get pricey quick. Still, what a few bucks when it comes to your safety?
 
 BA

I got a bad Rifle Basic trigger,took two days to make it work and got a tough luck from them when I phoned.I think the design of the Remington trigger can be made to work more reliablely than the Rifle Basic! If someone asks ,I will post.

Hey Hawkeye, how about picking a different name? [Linked Image]

Hey everybody, jump over to Second Amendment and give me a hand. Agree or disagree, but I would like to hear all of your opinions on the matter.

For a trigger for the 700 I've found the Jewell kind of hard to beat. Just my thoughts.
 
 "GET TO THE HILL"
 
 Dog

To the top for some new guys!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mike

I'll never own another Rem 700 either , mine a new one always failed to extract the fired shell when the bolt was worked quickly.

I'd rather use a Lee-Enfield 303..

Oh no, not the old Sucks thread again!
I just got another one! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

BTT for the curious amongst us. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Originally Posted by Teeder

Oh no, not the old Sucks thread again!
I just got another one! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Tag

Oh no! My latest addition...a 700 ADL in .223 that I converted to BDL shoots like pure schitt...one more Remington for the trash heap!
I'm REALLY surprised the bolt handle hasn't fallen off yet...and that the gun hasn't fired all by itself, killing someone.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Originally Posted by ingwe

Oh no! My latest addition...a 700 ADL in .223 that I converted to BDL shoots like pure schitt...one more Remington for the trash heap!
I'm REALLY surprised the bolt handle hasn't fallen off yet...and that the gun hasn't fired all by itself, killing someone.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

You've got lucky again

Originally Posted by MagMarc

Originally Posted by ingwe

Oh no! My latest addition...a 700 ADL in .223 that I converted to BDL shoots like pure schitt...one more Remington for the trash heap!
I'm REALLY surprised the bolt handle hasn't fallen off yet...and that the gun hasn't fired all by itself, killing someone.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

You've got lucky again

Nah...not really..I shot that target from 8 ft.......

Ingwe I figured it was a .224" pencil.

Originally Posted by Big Stick

Eye,
 
 Hard to be the new guy in the locker room. Much lighthearted jesting around these parts,all in good fun,most in good taste(grin).
 
 Actually,there is very little penny ante personal attacks and most get along suprisingly well,considering the extreme difference in personalities and opinions. In fact,it is rather amazing.
 
 Welcome aboard,don't take anything TOO seriously and enjoy the relaxed atmosphere. There is much hands on info,lurking amongst these zanies. Most are both quick and generous,with their findings. It is the best place I have ever found,to hang my hat. I hope that you enjoy both the company and surroundings.
 
 If that isn't to your likin',would you give my finger a little tug,it seems to be stuck.................

My how things have changed.

I'll chime in. I bought my first Remington bolt, a Model Seven 16" 308 six months ago. Shoots great with 150 Factory Gold Dots. Shoots great for the first 3 shots before the pencil barrel starts heating up.

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

Since then, I swapped the plastic stock for a Boyds. Love this thing. Great hunting rig.

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

Originally Posted by 444Matt

Originally Posted by Big Stick

Eye,
 
 Hard to be the new guy in the locker room. Much lighthearted jesting around these parts,all in good fun,most in good taste(grin).
 
 Actually,there is very little penny ante personal attacks and most get along suprisingly well,considering the extreme difference in personalities and opinions. In fact,it is rather amazing.
 
 Welcome aboard,don't take anything TOO seriously and enjoy the relaxed atmosphere. There is much hands on info,lurking amongst these zanies. Most are both quick and generous,with their findings. It is the best place I have ever found,to hang my hat. I hope that you enjoy both the company and surroundings.
 
 If that isn't to your likin',would you give my finger a little tug,it seems to be stuck.................

My how things have changed.

Told Gary Busey to hold his beer.

Ingwe, your results pretty much mirror mine with dozens of 700’s I’ve used since the mid ‘60’s. 😊

All I can say is I have five model 700s right now, and had many others through the years, and haven't experienced any problems. I replace the x mark triggers with timney's, bed all my rifles and float the barrels in good stocks, feed them good handloads and all have given me great accuracy, under 1". I'll be getting a few more new ones soon. Not saying every manufacturer doesn't have a bad product here and there, but not sure how one person has so many rifles "lock up" on him.

Originally Posted by 444Matt

Originally Posted by Big Stick

Eye,
 
 Hard to be the new guy in the locker room. Much lighthearted jesting around these parts,all in good fun,most in good taste(grin).
 
 Actually,there is very little penny ante personal attacks and most get along suprisingly well,considering the extreme difference in personalities and opinions. In fact,it is rather amazing.
 
 Welcome aboard,don't take anything TOO seriously and enjoy the relaxed atmosphere. There is much hands on info,lurking amongst these zanies. Most are both quick and generous,with their findings. It is the best place I have ever found,to hang my hat. I hope that you enjoy both the company and surroundings.
 
 If that isn't to your likin',would you give my finger a little tug,it seems to be stuck.................

My how things have changed.

He was on his meds then and getting .....some from time to time......