Since we’ve had a few thread “dust-ups” about bear attacks on hunters and guides in the last several months with opinions running amuck....Let’s build a good bear rifle that you would want as your primary rifle as a hunter trying to fill a tag for yourself or being used as a guide rifle for protection of both yourself, your hunter and following up on a wounded bear your hunter may have made a poor shot on.
I got curious about this after reading an article on big bear guides. Phil Shoemaker (458Win) was pictured with a rifle that looked like it had seen a few hunts in its day...
Don’t ask me questions!...Just write what you’d want, need and expect from the rifle in a caliber of your choice. Stock, action, barrel length and optics, iron sites or both.
Doesn’t have to be a custom build...If there is a production rifle you’d want. Add any changes to it you or a Smith would do to improve it. 😎
Mine is a 375 H&H M70 Classic Stainless with the barrel cut to 22" and deeply fluted. It is bedded in a Brown Pound'r stock and it now wears a Leupold VXII 2-7X. I load the 270 gr TSX at just shy of 2700 fps. It has been up there once, unsuccessfully, but it will go again.
I have spent almost four decades agonizing over the same thing and now have a rack full of them. A couple of G series stainless M 70 338 Win, another in 375 H&H , a Ruger Mk II M 77 that Bill Atkinson converted to 375 H&H, a couple of 375 Rugers, another in 416 Ruger, an FN Mauser Charlie Sisk built in 375 Ruger , a couple 9.3x62's , another couple 30-06s and my 458.
Mine is a Winchester 70 Classic Stainless, .338 Win Mag, 23" bbl in a McMillan "Bridges" Edge.
Shoots the 225 TSX at @ 2900fps.
8 lbs on the nose with a 2.5-8 Zeiss Conquest in Talley LW.
I have one very similar, but it is a pre 64, in a Brown poundR stock, stainless matchgrade 24" barrel, leupold PRW mounts and rings, Zeiss conquest 3.5-10x44, barreled action and btm metal cerakoated midnight blue. Mag box holds 4 rounds and yes, i'd carry hot, so thats 5 round capacity. As it sits, it weighs 8 pounds and balances well and has great glass. Shoots consistent sub moa 5 shot groups with multiple bullet weights and brands. It feeds and cycles flawlessly, with no hiccups. Id trust it hunting bears.
My son typically uses his 375 Ruger or his 475 Turnbull and while my daughter did good work with her 375 Ruger but absolutely loves her lightweight 416 Remington
Now let me start by saying, I have no experience hunting bear. If I was to go bear hunting, I would carry the same rifle I use for everything else. I would be most comfortable with a rifle I know that I can use effectively and I would rather have a good 200 grain bullet from my 8x57 in the right place than 500 grains in the wrong one.
My brown bear killers are both Classic Stainless Model 70s, a .375 H&H and a 9.3x62. Both have Talley mounts with the peep sight. The .375 barrel was cut to 20.5". It's in a McMillan Supergrade stock with a Vari X III 1.75-6. The 9.3 also has a 20.5" barrel and sits in a McMillan Winlite pattern stock with a VX II 2-7. The old Winlite is being replaced with an Edge fill Winlite. Once done, that rifle should weigh about 6.75 lbs with the peep sight-perfect for hiking, fishing, and alot of hunting.
The .375 has killed a pile of them. The 9.3 has only one so far but acted just like a .375. In fact, I think of the 9.3 as my six shot .375.
Remington 7600 stainless synthetic straight grip stock with 18 inch barrel and worked over real good. Make mine a 338 Federal with some good 210 grain Partition loads. Leupold VX-4.5HD 1-4.5x24 with bull ring post reticle.
I have had two built and purchase another one. It looks like I will never hunt the big bears but I am ready.
The one I purchased is a Kimber Talkeetna in .375 H&H.
I had a Winchester model 70 Stainless Classic in .375 H&H worked over by our own "Redneck". He shortened the barrel to 22", installed new Express Sights, did a trigger job on it and installed it in a McMillan Express McWoody after Eddie F. Cerakoted it.
Next is another Winchester Classic Stainless 30-06 that Redneck rebarreled with a PacNor 35 Whelen barrel, installed it in a McMillan Compact Hunter stock after Eddie F. Cerakoted it.
Maybe my kids or grandkids will use them on a big bear.
I have never hunted brown bear and probably never will, but I have a stainless Winchester 70 in .375 H&H, barrel cut to 22", Burris 1.75x5 in case I ever do!
Did 2 black bear hunts in SE Alaska in 2015. Carried a stainless Ruger 77 Hawkeye, 20" barrel in 338 RCM, 185 TTSX....short, fast and easy to carry......worked great for black bears.
Mine is a Ruger Alaskan in .375 Ruger in a McMillan MKII Classic in GAP camo with a Leupold VX3 2.5-8x36. It shoots 250gr TTSX at around 2800 fps. I’ve shot 3 bull moose with it but no big bears although there are big grizzlies in northern BC where I hunt moose.
As a hunter I want a rifle that can take a bear out to maybe 200 yards. I’m thinking a Kimber Talkeetna 375 H&H with a 1-4x or 1.5-6x scope, thought I imagine the 338WM would work well. I like the Ruger Action but IMO their Guide Gun and FTW Hunter are just too ugly. The African is pretty but I’d rather have Stainless and Synthetic over blueing and wood. The Alaskan would be great if you could find one, I don’t think they still make them.
As a guide, protecting myself and clients, I’d want a bigger gun meant to drop a bear rather than ethically place a bullet a football field away. 416 Rigby, 458 Win Mag maybe. Something big big. Iron sights or a 1x optic.
Remington 700 in a 17 remington best part I flip the safety off she goes bang! [bleep] Bear has nothing on me on the first shot.. don't even need to touch the trigger!
Remington 700 in a 17 remington best part I flip the safety off she goes bang! [bleep] Bear has nothing on me on the first shot.. don't even need to touch the trigger!
Be careful there buddy. I could see the advantage of using such a rifle... Just be careful when you pull that bolt back. Now, if being charged by a bear, do you yank the bolt back briskly enough that the bolt handle stays in your hand? Now you got something to beat said bear with.. Many advantages, just got to be willing to think outside the box..
I have several that fill the bill quite well. I hunt around Grizzlies every year, so I often carry something large enough to make me "feel better".
I have a Mauser in 375H&H (zeroed for 300 grain Nosler Partitions) and also a Mauser in 9.3X62 (zeroed for 286 grain Nosler Partitions) . I have a Mauser in 9.3X57 that I also feel is quite antiquate for big bears with the loads I make for it. (250 grain Nosler Accu-Bonds) And then there is my Ruger #1 in 9.3X74R which is 100% antiquate for any bear. It also gets loaded with 286 Grain partitions.
For hunting a big bear I would probably choose one of those.
But for carry around those mountains when I am not the hunter I also feel ok with a 30-06 Mauser scout rifle with 220s , my Mauser in 8X57 loaded with 200 grain Nosler partitions or my old M1-Garand loaded with 220 grain bullets (works like a charm with a load of 3031). I have also carried my 95 Browning loaded with 220s a few times, and I have killed elk with that one in Grizzly country and never felt unarmed. I own a 404 Jeffery and some time I may carry that. So far I have not, but I am sure I will in the coming years .
I have also carried my 300 H&H loaded with 200 grain Nosler Partitions when hunting elk up there and felt it would be OK if I needed to shoot a Fuzzy-Nasty. I never have needed to (yet,) but I never have been in a bad car wreck either. I still wear a seat belt just in case, and I carry large and powerful calibers with good bullets around where grizzlies live. I just feel better with a rifle and a load I know is capable of doing the job.
For me I’d opt for a SS Rem 700 in 375/300 WSM with a 20” bbl with a short 1.75x6 leupold in DD’s with a McMillan edge hunters stock. Shooting 250 grain Barnes ttsxs.
Most days I carry stainless classic in a model 70 in a 270 Winchester. But When I wander into bear country in unit 13 here in Alaska I usually carry a G series model 70 stainless classic in a 338 wsm or a early production BACO made model 70 extreme weather in a 325 wsm. I do own a model 70 stainless classic in a 375 H&H but been 5 plus yrs since I shot it.
My choice to meet the listed requirements would be my 416 Ruger Alaskan. It has the factory 20" barrel with the factory sights, McMillan Classic stock. It currently has a 1.5-8x42mm scope with illuminated #4, mounted in Alaska Arms rings. I would likely swap the scope to a 1.1-4 or 1-6, maybe. This is currently set up as a primary moose rifle. The bullet would be the same 350 TSX or TTSX.
2nd choice would be my 375 Ruger Alaskan, factory barrel and sights. This one is in a McMillan Hunter stock with a Kahles 1.1-4x24mm with 7a reticle, mounted in Alaska Arms rings. Bullet would be 270 grain TSX or the LRX version.
I like these because of the cartridges and the short 20" barrels. The shorter barrels are easier to maneuver in the tangles for me. And both are easy enough to shoot in non-perfect positions. Other top contenders would be M70's, Classic stainless 416 Rem and 375 H&H. Factory sights, 22" barrels, McMillan Supergrade stocks, Tally base/rings, 1.1-4 and 1-6x24mm scopes. Bullets would be the same as used for the Ruger versions.
Originally Posted by Beaver10
Since we’ve had a few thread “dust-ups” about bear attacks on hunters and guides in the last several months with opinions running amuck....Let’s build a good bear rifle that you would want as your primary rifle as a hunter trying to fill a tag for yourself or being used as a guide rifle for protection of both yourself, your hunter and following up on a wounded bear your hunter may have made a poor shot on.
I got curious about this after reading an article on big bear guides. Phil Shoemaker (458Win) was pictured with a rifle that looked like it had seen a few hunts in its day...
Don’t ask me questions!...Just write what you’d want, need and expect from the rifle in a caliber of your choice. Stock, action, barrel length and optics, iron sites or both.
Doesn’t have to be a custom build...If there is a production rifle you’d want. Add any changes to it you or a Smith would do to improve it. 😎
If a 30/06 isn’t enough, I would want a 416 either a Taylor or a Remington. Load 300’s to 2450. The rifle should have a 21” barrel with a barrel band. Stock synthetic. 2.5 Leupold. All up 8.5#.
I just can’t find a place for all the 33 to 375 bores. A 416 with easy loads is just more gun.
While I have no experience hunting Brown bears or Grizzlies, I have been around them a few times. I think we're talking about 2 different firearms here: one for hunting and one for defense. For hunting, I'd definitely choose a Mauser, CZ 550 American or a M70 in .35 Whelen or 9.3x62.
For defense I'd choose a .45-70 JM Marlin or a lightly modified 870 (Magpul model) 12GA w/ staggered slugs/single-aught.
If I was going to build a rifle for hunting, I'd likely choose an M70 Classic Stainless in .30-06 and rebore to .35 Whelen, slap on a McMillan and add a true 1-6x24, but similar rifles can be found used from time-to-time.
I have a new Ruger Hawkeye Stainless/synthetic .338 WM, that I am working on or will be working on the in the near future. The wife bought it for me as retirement gift from the AF.
Mine is built by Greydog, a massaged and trued transition 1947 M70 action with a Pac Nor stainless 9.3X62 barrel. 22 1/2” and Douglas #3 contour which gives a .635” muzzle - perfection. The metal is all Gunkoted. It sits in a blind magazine Brown Precision stock with Phil’s flashlight rail mount in the foreend. A Leupold 6X36 LR on top in super low DD rings as the bolt handle has been modified to clear a low ocular. 7 1/2 pounds all up and slightly muzzle heavy.
It shoots JBs two loads, the 250AB at 2650 and the 286NP at 2475 into the same group at 100 yards. There’s nothing I would change.
It has a twin in 280 that is set up exactly the same, a 23” barrel with a .575” muzzle. With a BP Pound’r it weighs a flat 7 pounds. They are my pet of pets and killed my interest in looking for the”next” rifle. There is no “up” to dream about.
The Carpathian mountains where I hunt are heavily infested with brown bears. I like hunting driven boars with one of my 30-06's or a 308 or 7x57. But in the fall before the foliage is down when the bear is too close to you too quickly, I feel much better with my Ruger African 9.3x62. The barrel is cut to 21", sights are Recknagel triangle rear and white bead front (very fast). I don't use a scope on this one but have a small weaver base screwed on it that allows QD attachment of a lightweight Holosun red dot sight which allows more range and precision and is still very fast on target. I also installed a Pachmayr 1" Decellerator recoil pad and the rifle feels like shooting a heavy bulleted 30-06. Weight (unloaded) with irons is 7 pounds 6 ounces and with the red dot is 7 pounds 11 ounces. RJ
As I recall, our very own scenarshooter killed a grizzly bear with his 260, while alaska_lanche has been in on a couple grizzly kills with the 6.5 Creedmoor.
As I recall, our very own scenarshooter killed a grizzly bear with his 260, while alaska_lanche has been in on a couple grizzly kills with the 6.5 Creedmoor.
Careful there pg, someone who's never hunted, or been around grizzlies, is going to tell you how to do it...;)
Several years ago, when I was still an agile sixty something, and had a few dollars in my pocket, I bought a switch Barrel Blaser 93, with two barrels. 270 for lesser stuff and 9.3 x62 for the larger. This was to be my North American do everything rifle.
Then I fooled around and never got to Alaska or Canada. None the less, I’m well armed. Maybe grandson can live my dream. Health issues caught up with me.
I have only killed 2 Grizzlies, so I am not an expert, but closer than some. One was with a 25-35, the other was with a 30-378. All I can tell you is that I shot both of them in the head and they didn't go anywhere...
Beaver10, If it is to be used as a stopping rifle for an attack or “put-down” a clients wounded bear. My choice.... a well “tuned”, Marlin Guide Gun (short, fast handling, well balanced) in 45-70, pushing a 420 + grain, wide metplat, hard cast bullet at or nearly so maximum safe velocity in your rifle, scoped with a quality, very low power ( example, 1-5). JMO.
If I am hunting......a totally different recommendation is in order! It would be the “only” hunting rifle I’ve used since ‘90.....semi-custom, Model 70 Win. in .375AI. Description: Win. Model 70, McMillian stock, 24” SS Douglas Match (light contour) barrel, express sights, Leupold scope in Leupold QD base/rings with a back-up scope ready to go, Pachmayr Decelerator recoil pad, front sling swivel on barrel, weighs : 9 pounds 1 ounce with scope, sling, and 4 rounds. Presently running 250 TTSX’s at 3130 muzzle velocity.....considering going to the 270 LRX.
If for both purposes.......the Winchester! memtb
If buying new, I would consider the Kimber Talkeetna (.375 H&H), taken to a reputable “smith”.....transform it to an AI or .375 Weatherby.
The last 3 brown bears I have seen killed were only shot once apiece.
One with a 7 rem mag using 150gr soft points, one with a .308 using a 180gr SP and the last one with a .308 using 130TTSX. Hit them right and they die pretty quick.........usually.
A rifle dedicated for big bears, I'd be happy with a 21" or 22" bbl'd SS M70 30-06 (Douglas no. 2 contour) with backup open sights, 3X fixed Leupold in detachable mounts, Bansner stock w/ PT&G Al bottom metal. I'd load it with 200 gr Partitions.
Truth of the matter is I do all my hunting in Grizzly country with stuff like the 270 or 308 Win.
I also have no desire to shoot a "big bear" so I suppose the concept is wasted on me...
My country is pretty thick, so short and light is my preference. I've used both the Marlin 45/70 and 444 a lot over the years. Either one will take care of anything Im going to run into. Being left handed, I'm limited when it comes to bolt guns. Ruger hit it out of the park IMO when they came out with the compact line. I added a 338 RCM to my arsenal as soon as I found one in LH. With a 1.5 fixed power Leopold its perfect for our country.
My son just found a limited edition Ruger in 358 Winchester. He's getting a set of EAW bases, banded front and NECG express rear installed. It should work well.
I've got you a hell of a bear rifle Beaver, BRNO 98 Mauser in 416 Taylor, Timney trigger, model 70 style two position safety, stock relieved all the way around bottom metal to let the water run through now, or after the ice melts, ALL steel, including scope ring screws are black matte cerakoted, Devcon bedded to a B/C syn stock, express sights dead on at 50 yards with 400gr Hornadys or Partitons, a 1.5-5 Leupold riding in Talley levers will give you a little reach for bear, will also provide 300 yard shooting for elk or moose should the need arise.
The 400gr partitions at 2400 fps fly pretty flat for a good heavy medium bore hunting rifle.
I have spent almost four decades agonizing over the same thing and now have a rack full of them. A couple of G series stainless M 70 338 Win, another in 375 H&H , a Ruger Mk II M 77 that Bill Atkinson converted to 375 H&H, a couple of 375 Rugers, another in 416 Ruger, an FN Mauser Charlie Sisk built in 375 Ruger , a couple 9.3x62's , another couple 30-06s and my 458.
They are all "perfect"
Maybe covered elsewhere, but I haven't made time to read the entire contents of 24HCF: what optic is your first choice for such a rifle? I'm just a southern boy who's never been further north than Lewiston, but I like to know stuff. I'm guessing a 2.5x or 3x. What says the *guru? Maybe none of the above, stick with iron sights?
* didn't mean to come off as a sarcastic comment...I momentarily confused you with 458Lott.
I have an econo-custom VZ24 built up into .35 Whelen that I imagine might be just about right for the job, shooting 225-grain Accubonds (I do not expect to ever be able to try it out, though).
I built mine 12-13 years ago and, for my purposes, it has served me admirably. I should mention that it was built to hunt big bears that generally DON'T try to kill you back. But I'd not hesitate to take it after the cranky critters if ever given the opportunity.
Started with a (gasp !!) A-Bolt Stainless Stalker .375 H&H. My smith ran the Weatherby treatment through the chamber. Trigger crisped at 40 oz. Leupold rings and dual dovetail bases steeled on and 6-32's replaced by 8-40's. A bedding job and a Weaver 2-10x38 (for weight more than anything) and a Sims pad on the back. right at 8 1/2 lbs scoped and loaded.
It was a bastage to find a load that suited it. Had loads with an 8 fps E.S. that wouldn't shoot under 4"...……… Finally found that it took a liking to 250 gr SGK's over a hatful of H-414 and would do 5 of them under 1 1/2" at 100.
Took it hunting for the very first time and ended up putting an SGK into the south end of a northbound 7 footer at about 50 yards. came up just one of those little hairs shy of bringing it out his brisket. Crushed him on the spot. The only other bear I got to use it on was a 250-ish pounder that a buddy had started the job on. But the bear had gone into a stand of dark, nearly impenetrable spruce in a VERY pizzed of mood. I went in after him and, once I got down on my belly and lips where I could see, gave him a rough ride til he ceased to breathe.
I would have the utmost faith in this (butt-ugly) rifle in any situation.
I've got you a hell of a bear rifle Beaver, BRNO 98 Mauser in 416 Taylor, Timney trigger, model 70 style two position safety, stock relieved all the way around bottom metal to let the water run through now, or after the ice melts, ALL steel, including scope ring screws are black matte cerakoted, Devcon bedded to a B/C syn stock, express sights dead on at 50 yards with 400gr Hornadys or Partitons, a 1.5-5 Leupold riding in Talley levers will give you a little reach for bear, will also provide 300 yard shooting for elk or moose should the need arise.
The 400gr partitions at 2400 fps fly pretty flat for a good heavy medium bore hunting rifle.
Thanks Gunner. I’m finding the 375 H&H appealing and growing on me...Your Taylor can’t be much fun to shoot when it’s throwing 400gr mice sized projectiles at paper. 🤕😎
For Bear over the years I've collected a few. I have one Sako FS 375 H&H, one Sako Kodiak 375 H&H, one Kimber Talkeetna, one CZ-550 re chambered to 375 Ultra Mag, a couple of 9.3x62 Sako Black Bears (one for the wife) and for you fans of the 338WM a Ruger Guide gun. The Ruger and the Sako FS are my favorites.
I built mine 12-13 years ago and, for my purposes, it has served me admirably. I should mention that it was built to hunt big bears that generally DON'T try to kill you back. But I'd not hesitate to take it after the cranky critters if ever given the opportunity.
Started with a (gasp !!) A-Bolt Stainless Stalker .375 H&H. My smith ran the Weatherby treatment through the chamber. Trigger crisped at 40 oz. Leupold rings and dual dovetail bases steeled on and 6-32's replaced by 8-40's. A bedding job and a Weaver 2-10x38 (for weight more than anything) and a Sims pad on the back. right at 8 1/2 lbs scoped and loaded.
It was a bastage to find a load that suited it. Had loads with an 8 fps E.S. that wouldn't shoot under 4"...……… Finally found that it took a liking to 250 gr SGK's over a hatful of H-414 and would do 5 of them under 1 1/2" at 100.
Took it hunting for the very first time and ended up putting an SGK into the south end of a northbound 7 footer at about 50 yards. came up just one of those little hairs shy of bringing it out his brisket. Crushed him on the spot. The only other bear I got to use it on was a 250-ish pounder that a buddy had started the job on. But the bear had gone into a stand of dark, nearly impenetrable spruce in a VERY pizzed of mood. I went in after him and, once I got down on my belly and lips where I could see, gave him a rough ride til he ceased to breathe.
I would have the utmost faith in this (butt-ugly) rifle in any situation.
7’ footer bear...Black, Brown, Griz? At least you’ve got blood on yours. Some of us are building or own these beauties without ever having the opportunity to fully use it for what it was built for.. Good on you...A-bolt, you say 🧐😎
A rifle dedicated for big bears, I'd be happy with a 21" or 22" bbl'd SS M70 30-06 (Douglas no. 2 contour) with backup open sights, 3X fixed Leupold in detachable mounts, Bansner stock w/ PT&G Al bottom metal. I'd load it with 200 gr Partitions.
Truth of the matter is I do all my hunting in Grizzly country with stuff like the 270 or 308 Win.
I also have no desire to shoot a "big bear" so I suppose the concept is wasted on me...
For backup/defense a 45-70 guide gun with 430gr gas checks at 1800 fps. If I was hunting where I needed some range, 338 wm with 225 or 250 gr partitions. But normally I just carry a .44 just in case. But we just have little griz
I built mine 12-13 years ago and, for my purposes, it has served me admirably. I should mention that it was built to hunt big bears that generally DON'T try to kill you back. But I'd not hesitate to take it after the cranky critters if ever given the opportunity.
Started with a (gasp !!) A-Bolt Stainless Stalker .375 H&H. My smith ran the Weatherby treatment through the chamber. Trigger crisped at 40 oz. Leupold rings and dual dovetail bases steeled on and 6-32's replaced by 8-40's. A bedding job and a Weaver 2-10x38 (for weight more than anything) and a Sims pad on the back. right at 8 1/2 lbs scoped and loaded.
It was a bastage to find a load that suited it. Had loads with an 8 fps E.S. that wouldn't shoot under 4"...……… Finally found that it took a liking to 250 gr SGK's over a hatful of H-414 and would do 5 of them under 1 1/2" at 100.
Took it hunting for the very first time and ended up putting an SGK into the south end of a northbound 7 footer at about 50 yards. came up just one of those little hairs shy of bringing it out his brisket. Crushed him on the spot. The only other bear I got to use it on was a 250-ish pounder that a buddy had started the job on. But the bear had gone into a stand of dark, nearly impenetrable spruce in a VERY pizzed of mood. I went in after him and, once I got down on my belly and lips where I could see, gave him a rough ride til he ceased to breathe.
I would have the utmost faith in this (butt-ugly) rifle in any situation.
7’ footer bear...Black, Brown, Griz? At least you’ve got blood on yours. Some of us are building or own these beauties without ever having the opportunity to fully use it for what it was built for.. Good on you...A-bolt, you say 🧐😎
Black.
Yep. A-Bolt.
I've read and heard more schmack talked about the red-headed step-rifle over the years than I can relate. My rifle has been pushed ahead of me through MILES of spruce needles, snow, mud, bear chit and about any other woods material one can name. 100% of our bear hunting is organized drives. We (the pushers) crawl through and under crapholes that a rabbit would look at, say "f that" and go around. In all honesty, the gun has never offered one hiccup of any sort. Maybe some guys have gotten bad ones. I ain't one of them.
If you're the dude paying the guide to get you onto a big bear you're also paying the guide to back you up. In that event anything like a 30.06 with a reasonable projectile would be fine. But if I'm self-guided (like the two I've killed myself) I'd want nothing less than a 375 H&H. NONE of the photos I've seen attached to this thread save one show anything approaching a "big" bear. A big boar can weigh in excess of 1500# in the fall. Until you've killed one personally it's damned hard to imagine just how powerful and vengeful they can be.
If I were a sport paying Phil to guide me I'd use a .243 with 120 grain bullets and let him back me up with his 9mm pistol - just kidding. If I'm hunting by myself and not relying on a guide to back me up I'd have either a 375 or 416 with a 1-5X scope (in focus half-way down the barrel) loaded with stout pills.
I have a weatherby vanguard dangerous game rifle with a leupold vx3i 1.5-5x20 mounted with Talley quick release rings. That’s my bear gun.
There's lots of worse choices, for sure.
Junior just got him a new Vanguard II Synthetic .375 H&H a few weeks ago. He zeroed it with the factory irons at 75 yards with some Hornady factory loads and it grouped very well.
Few weeks it'll be off to our smith. The reamer that did mine hasn't seen any action since (go figure) and it's ready to make the guy some more money. Probably get his Vanguard set up similarly to my rifle. If it's a working system, go with it.
If you're the dude paying the guide to get you onto a big bear you're also paying the guide to back you up. In that event anything like a 30.06 with a reasonable projectile would be fine. But if I'm self-guided (like the two I've killed myself) I'd want nothing less than a 375 H&H. NONE of the photos I've seen attached to this thread save one show anything approaching a "big" bear. A big boar can weigh in excess of 1500# in the fall. Until you've killed one personally it's damned hard to imagine just how powerful and vengeful they can be.
If I were a sport paying Phil to guide me I'd use a .243 with 120 grain bullets and let him back me up with his 9mm pistol - just kidding. If I'm hunting by myself and not relying on a guide to back me up I'd have either a 375 or 416 with a 1-5X scope (in focus half-way down the barrel) loaded with stout pills.
JH, I’m guessing here, but the lack of big bear pictures might be because of the cost associated with doing a guided hunt in bear-zilla land; Kodiak, Afognak or Raspberry Island maybe. I imagine it’s a small fortune to hunt a 900lb to 1000lb pound bear. 😎
Beaver10, you're right - it's expensive to hunt with a guide. I was a resident of Alaska for just under 20 years and hunted Afognak Island, Kodiak Island, and the Alaska Peninsula a total fo 6 times for brown bear (DIY hunts) and personally killed two. I participated in the killing of 3 more. That does not make me an expert but the point remains - until you've actually seen and killed a big bear then what it takes is hard to imagine. A well-placed shot from a .308 Winchester will kill a big bear. But if the [bleep] hits the fan and killing at close range is required then a big hole in the end of the barrel is a source of comfort. If I were to hunt big bears again on my own I'd carry a 20mm chain gun if I could (or I'd have Phil back me up).
First off, let me confess that I have never, as yet, hunted bears. I have on several occasions designed my fantasy moose/bear rifle. What I find curious is there seems to be more preference here for the .375 H&H over the .375 Ruger cartridge. Is this simply because Winchester does not offer this chambering in their rifles? I am really partial to a M-70 as my favorite .30-06 deer rifle. From what I have heard and read, the Ruger version chambering is superior to the H&H with the same performance. This is why a stainless steel Montana Rifle Company with synthetic stock, iron sights, quick detachable mounts, Nightforce illuminated reticle scope would seem ideal to me. Even better would be the same if offered in an all weather version Winchester M-70 with a 20 or 22 inch barrel. It really seems to be a shame that Ruger discontinued the Alaskan. It seemed to me pretty much the perfect bear/moose rifle. Am I missing something here?
First off, let me confess that I have never, as yet, hunted bears. I have on several occasions designed my fantasy moose/bear rifle. What I find curious is there seems to be more preference here for the .375 H&H over the .375 Ruger cartridge. Is this simply because Winchester does not offer this chambering in their rifles? I am really partial to a M-70 as my favorite .30-06 deer rifle. From what I have heard and read, the Ruger version chambering is superior to the H&H with the same performance. This is why a stainless steel Montana Rifle Company with synthetic stock, iron sights, quick detachable mounts, Nightforce illuminated reticle scope would seem ideal to me. Even better would be the same if offered in an all weather version Winchester M-70 with a 20 or 22 inch barrel. It really seems to be a shame that Ruger discontinued the Alaskan. It seemed to me pretty much the perfect bear/moose rifle. Am I missing something here?
Most any place that sells ammo up here will carry .375H&H
Ruger is ever expanding their Santa's workshop collection with things like plastic revolvers, Americans, and other trinkety wares. Hell, they even stopped making the all weather hawkeyes. Most people don't appreciate or need a truly rugged rifle like the M77 action. On top of that, the .375 Ruger hasn't been around as long as the H&H, and has been offered by fewer makers. Further, the number of guys buying such rifles is exponentially smaller than those buying 6.5 whatevers or .243s because they just don't need them.
Beaver10, you're right - it's expensive to hunt with a guide. I was a resident of Alaska for just under 20 years and hunted Afognak Island, Kodiak Island, and the Alaska Peninsula a total fo 6 times for brown bear (DIY hunts) and personally killed two. I participated in the killing of 3 more. That does not make me an expert but the point remains - until you've actually seen and killed a big bear then what it takes is hard to imagine. A well-placed shot from a .308 Winchester will kill a big bear. But if the [bleep] hits the fan and killing at close range is required then a big hole in the end of the barrel is a source of comfort. If I were to hunt big bears again on my own I'd carry a 20mm chain gun if I could (or I'd have Phil back me up).
Laffin...These monster furs are in a class alone. Respect the ocean, your mom and dad, and anything else that can consider you a part of a well balanced diet. 😎
I'm not Phil, nor am I close to being Phil, but I've killed brown bears with .338 Win Mag, .340 Weatherby, .35 Whelen, .358 Norma, and .416 Rem. Off the top of my head, I've hunted/participated with other brown bear kills with .270 Win, .308 Win, 30/06, .300 Win Mag, .300 WSM, .338 Marlin Express, 338/378 Weatherby, .375 H&H and undoubtedly some I'm not presently recollecting. While I've seen poor shot placement and the typical results that follow, I've also seen "marginal" cartridges perform perfectly when placed properly.
As far as rifles go, personally I prefer a bolt-action rifle around 7.5-8.5 pounds that I know feeds and functions. Stainless is a plus and all of my serious AK hunting rifles wear McMillans, though that's largely because I've confidence in McMillans always performing rather than any noticed or measured advantage. I've used lots of scopes and sights, but have pretty well settled on fixed 3X and 6X scopes. Confidence in feed, function, and durability have always been most important to me and the only way to build confidence is with a lot of use. Most any big game rifle that I'm shooting a lot at the time spring or fall season comes around is what I'm carrying in the field and becomes my "big bear" rifle by default.
[quote=SCGunNut]Highly doubtful I'll ever hunt a big bear, but I have several contenders if he opportunity does arise.
My latest addition is a Sako "Grizzly" 9.3x66 / .370 Sako Mag.
Custom .376 Steyr
Traditional choice, Husqvarna .358 Norma Mag
[/quote
Nicest trio I've seen in a long time!
The middle one I can see for crawling on the ground after a bear or sneaking through the alder thickets, but the other two are far too pretty to be dragging on the ground or bracing on a rock for a shot at a big brown....
First off, let me confess that I have never, as yet, hunted bears. I have on several occasions designed my fantasy moose/bear rifle. What I find curious is there seems to be more preference here for the .375 H&H over the .375 Ruger cartridge. Is this simply because Winchester does not offer this chambering in their rifles? I am really partial to a M-70 as my favorite .30-06 deer rifle. From what I have heard and read, the Ruger version chambering is superior to the H&H with the same performance. This is why a stainless steel Montana Rifle Company with synthetic stock, iron sights, quick detachable mounts, Nightforce illuminated reticle scope would seem ideal to me. Even better would be the same if offered in an all weather version Winchester M-70 with a 20 or 22 inch barrel. It really seems to be a shame that Ruger discontinued the Alaskan. It seemed to me pretty much the perfect bear/moose rifle. Am I missing something here?
Besides the fact you will probably find .375 H&H ammo most places up north where big things inhabit, I would think reliability would be a big concern when hunting things that may bite back or kill you by simply falling on you. Very few rifles feed as reliably or eject as smoothly as the venerable old H&H tapered cases when paired with a Mauser type action. One less thing to think about...
Texczech, The sight is Recknagel (Germany). I live in Romania and I order mine from Optics Trade in Slovenia. They will ship internationally. But You can also get them from NECG in the good old USA. They are made in red, yellow and white but I have found red to not show up well in poor light. Yellow does and has enough contrast with a white bead for a precise hold.They are made only with a 16mm dovetail, so if your rifle has a standard 3/8" rear sight dovetail, you'll have to cut down the 16mm to 3/8", as I did. It's a PIA but doable. It is the fastest open sight I have ever used. I also have it on my Ruger KRSI 77 in 7x57M. RJ
About 14 years ago I decided to go on a Zimbabwe Cape Buffalo hunt so I built a .375 RUM. It's a 26" SS Rem 700 that I had fitted with a KDF muzzle brake. I installed it in a Richards laminated stock that I pillar and glass bedded, and fitted with a recoil reducer and a Limbsaver pad. I also checkered it with my favorite multi-panel wraparound checkering pattern that I've cut on several of my other rifles. It's topped with a 2-7x Leopold scope.
For bullets, I've worked up 3-shot moa loads with 300 grain TSX and Partitions at 2700+ fps and 270 grain TSXs at 3040 fps.
Although the barrel of this rifle is a few inches longer than my other rifles, its stock dimensions and weight are about the same as my other hunting rifles that I have been using for over 50 years, so the feeling of handling any of them is about the same.
Its been about 10 years since I last used this rifle in Africa, but just maybe a Kamchatka or coastal Alaska brownie will be in it's future...
Beaver10, If you find yourself in the neighborhood.....drop by, and I’ll let you test-drive my AI! memtb
PM me the part of Wyoming you’re in. I hope to be back in Wyoming next year, or 2020 at the latest for antelope and deer. No, I don’t want to ride your motorcycle 😁😎
Well, I'll give odds that I'll never go after one of the great bears but for spits and grins should miracles exist I'd look At my .35 Whelen with the 225 gr. TSX. At 2710 FPS at the muzzle it's one penetrating S.O.B. Second choice would be my .375 Taylor that I originally built up for dark timber elk hunts in rough country. It has .375 H&H powder in an 06 length action. Rifle weighs 7.5 pounds with sling, full magazine and an old Weaver 3X with post and crosshair. It's based on a tang safety Ruger M77 and sits in a Ramline stock. Apparently the gunsmith didn't torque the stock screws tight enough and the stock was ruined, thus the Ramline which I had laying around. Rifle is more than accurate enough with 270 and 300 gr. bullets, most running right at one inch. The only drawback is that beast kicks like one very pissed off mule. I don't normally name a rifle but that one earned the name "The Hammer" as it hammers at both ends.
I have used a bunch of different makes, models, cartridges, and actions. Had a little bit of a close scrape in real tight alders about 15 years ago and built a 700 with a Pac-Nor barrel, 375AI, cut to 20" and used it with a number of different scopes. Currently it has a Vortex Viper 1-4x 24 IR. It has been loaned out to quite a few people and has a number of dead bears behind it. The 270gr TSX is the primary bullet I use in it. The stock is relatively plain circassian walnut. I will not use a rifle with a barrel over 20" and after the first crawl through an alder patch no one else would either.
Riley shot his first Kodiak bear with it before graduating to the true big bear rifle, a 700 in 25-06 with 80grTTSX...
I started in on another in 358Norma but the job was butchered so badly by the smith installing the barrel it is not usable.
I've got you a hell of a bear rifle Beaver, BRNO 98 Mauser in 416 Taylor, Timney trigger, model 70 style two position safety, stock relieved all the way around bottom metal to let the water run through now, or after the ice melts, ALL steel, including scope ring screws are black matte cerakoted, Devcon bedded to a B/C syn stock, express sights dead on at 50 yards with 400gr Hornadys or Partitons, a 1.5-5 Leupold riding in Talley levers will give you a little reach for bear, will also provide 300 yard shooting for elk or moose should the need arise.
The 400gr partitions at 2400 fps fly pretty flat for a good heavy medium bore hunting rifle.
Thanks Gunner. I’m finding the 375 H&H appealing and growing on me...Your Taylor can’t be much fun to shoot when it’s throwing 400gr mice sized projectiles at paper. 🤕😎
LOL, I hear ya Beaver10, I picked that rifle from my lineup because it's put together like a 4X4 pickup with a winch and lockers, all weather, all game rifle, that being said, the fat round nosed 400gr Woodleighs at 2150 fps can be fired with one hand, very comfortable to shoot.
good bear rifle that you would want as your primary rifle as a hunter trying to fill a tag for yourself or being used as a guide rifle for protection of both yourself, your hunter and following up on a wounded bear your hunter may have made a poor shot on
No expert on killing big brown bruins, but the two rifle feature/scenarios you list above are somewhat exclusive of each other. There's the "Hunter" filling a tag and there's the "Guide" and in my mind the rifles used by each would be somewhat different given they are performing a different task. The guide having to do this several times throughout his or her life would definitely want to reduce their probability and statistical chance of injury or client injury by packing a 375 of some persuasion as a minimum. Would think .40 caliber and above with 400 gr - 500 gr loads would even be better life insurance whether in a lever gun (the 475 Turnbull mentioned) or bolt gun. As a hunter I would agree with others looking at .30 caliber, 200 gr which would be my minimum. Ideally a fine shooting .33 (Win Mag, Wby Mag or RUM) with 250 gr would do a very sufficient job provided the bear is hit right. Bottom line is I would choose my 338 Win Mag because it shoots flat, is very accurate and I can shoot it well out to 300 yards and beyond. In most cases and from what I have read big bears are typically taken inside of 150 yards most of the time. All .33 magnums with 250 gr bullet pack quite a punch at 150 yards, the Wby and RUM with a stout bullet would be quite effective I would think. Only one man's opinion, I yield to the experts.
There’s a local guy here that guided every year for decades in the Yukon. His do-everything rifle was a pre-64 338 WM stoked with 250 Partitions. That rifle accounted for over 50 grizzlies.
I have a new Ruger Hawkeye Stainless/synthetic .338 WM, that I am working on or will be working on the in the near future. The wife bought it for me as retirement gift from the AF.
And it will do anything you want it to do in Alaska. Great rifle. I used one for a lot of years up there. I'm partial to the skeleton stock with a Limbsaver pad. Stoke it with 250 grain Nosler Partition and you are good to go.
Based on results I've seen in AK, a .338WM with nosler 250s works great. Latest one I know of personally with this combo was killed at 7 yards last year, coming fast, full frontal angle.
I have a new Ruger Hawkeye Stainless/synthetic .338 WM, that I am working on or will be working on the in the near future. The wife bought it for me as retirement gift from the AF.
And it will do anything you want it to do in Alaska. Great rifle. I used one for a lot of years up there. I'm partial to the skeleton stock with a Limbsaver pad. Stoke it with 250 grain Nosler Partition and you are good to go.
That's kind of my plan, I just hope it handles good. I can't wait to get home in January for R&R, and hopefully get it all set up. I don't know if I'll get it to the range or not, but I'm going to get it scoped and some trigger work done for sure.
I have a new Ruger Hawkeye Stainless/synthetic .338 WM, that I am working on or will be working on the in the near future. The wife bought it for me as retirement gift from the AF.
And it will do anything you want it to do in Alaska. Great rifle. I used one for a lot of years up there. I'm partial to the skeleton stock with a Limbsaver pad. Stoke it with 250 grain Nosler Partition and you are good to go.
That's kind of my plan, I just hope it handles good. I can't wait to get home in January for R&R, and hopefully get it all set up. I don't know if I'll get it to the range or not, but I'm going to get it scoped and some trigger work done for sure.
I've had 5 qty. 338 WM's, including the Ruger 77 Stainless (mine had open sights too). The Ruger didn't shoot worth a damn.
All but the Ruger had 22" barrels, and that's my preference.
If I wanted another 338 WM I'd get a SS M70 magnum action and use whatever make of barrel done in the Douglas no.3 Contour, finished at 22". It would go in a Bansner stock, PT&G Al bottom metal, NECG open sights, and a simple fixed X scope in QD mounts.
If a Kimber Talkeetna had a 20-22" bbl and an open trigger design like the NH M70's it'd be pretty much perfect for anything one wanted to do with a 375H&H IMO.
For whatever reason, I could not edit this prior post. The stock on the M70 416 is a HS Precision. Also will add, I am not a dedicated bear hunter. But, whatever rifle and scope combination that I am using for moose is also chosen to be suitable for bear at close range to 200 yds.
When I am the single focus of a nervous / unhappy grizzly's attention at 25 yds or less, that bear becomes a very big bear regardless of its actual physical size. I might extend that distance to 40 to 50 yds. That is only a couple of heart beats away. And at those distances and circumstances, my heart is beating pretty damn fast when the bear is focusing on me. I believe the outcome between a 400 pound or 800 pound grizzly making contact will be determined more by the bear's attitude than by size. Their speed, agility, strength, and at times determination are amazing to me.
Originally Posted by ldmay375
My choice to meet the listed requirements would be my 416 Ruger Alaskan. It has the factory 20" barrel with the factory sights, McMillan Classic stock. It currently has a 1.5-8x42mm scope with illuminated #4, mounted in Alaska Arms rings. I would likely swap the scope to a 1.1-4 or 1-6, maybe. This is currently set up as a primary moose rifle. The bullet would be the same 350 TSX or TTSX.
2nd choice would be my 375 Ruger Alaskan, factory barrel and sights. This one is in a McMillan Hunter stock with a Kahles 1.1-4x24mm with 7a reticle, mounted in Alaska Arms rings. Bullet would be 270 grain TSX or the LRX version.
I like these because of the cartridges and the short 20" barrels. The shorter barrels are easier to maneuver in the tangles for me. And both are easy enough to shoot in non-perfect positions. Other top contenders would be M70's, Classic stainless 416 Rem and 375 H&H. Factory sights, 22" barrels, McMillan Supergrade stocks, Tally base/rings, 1.1-4 and 1-6x24mm scopes. Bullets would be the same as used for the Ruger versions.
Originally Posted by Beaver10
Since we’ve had a few thread “dust-ups” about bear attacks on hunters and guides in the last several months with opinions running amuck....Let’s build a good bear rifle that you would want as your primary rifle as a hunter trying to fill a tag for yourself or being used as a guide rifle for protection of both yourself, your hunter and following up on a wounded bear your hunter may have made a poor shot on.
I got curious about this after reading an article on big bear guides. Phil Shoemaker (458Win) was pictured with a rifle that looked like it had seen a few hunts in its day...
Don’t ask me questions!...Just write what you’d want, need and expect from the rifle in a caliber of your choice. Stock, action, barrel length and optics, iron sites or both.
Doesn’t have to be a custom build...If there is a production rifle you’d want. Add any changes to it you or a Smith would do to improve it. 😎
I agree. Though, I would also like a floor plate. The barrel length is easily remedied. The trigger style and floor plate not.
I have a Montana in the 325 WSM. The trigger style is the only thing that I can find to complain about on it. The same and only complaint, that I have with new M70's design. The Talkeetna 375 certainly feels good to me.
Originally Posted by horse1
If a Kimber Talkeetna had a 20-22" bbl and an open trigger design like the NH M70's it'd be pretty much perfect for anything one wanted to do with a 375H&H IMO.
I got curious about this after reading an article on big bear guides. Phil Shoemaker (458Win) was pictured with a rifle that looked like it had seen a few hunts in its day...
I think you could start (and stop) right there for the guide's rifle, and refer to his sig line for the hunter's version of that rifle.
I agree. Though, I would also like a floor plate. The barrel length is easily remedied. The trigger style and floor plate not.
I have a Montana in the 325 WSM. The trigger style is the only thing that I can find to complain about on it. The same and only complaint, that I have with new M70's design. The Talkeetna 375 certainly feels good to me.
Originally Posted by horse1
If a Kimber Talkeetna had a 20-22" bbl and an open trigger design like the NH M70's it'd be pretty much perfect for anything one wanted to do with a 375H&H IMO.
Curious why you'd want a floor-plate? Especially on a rifle that HAS TO work. I've used a Winchester M70 of some sort for just shy of 30yrs. You can throw the odd M700 and 1500/Vanguard in there, a smattering of Kimber Montanas, and even 1 A-Bolt. This fall while elk hunting I tripped the floor plate on my NH low 5 digit SS Classic M70 300Win mag. Elk had taken 2 hits and wasn't going anywhere but was on his feet. I cycled the bolt and "Click". Opened the bolt, looked down at the rifle and there's 2 loaded rounds lying in the dirt at my feet and the floor plate hanging open. I dust off one of the rounds at my feet, chamber it, hit the elk a 3rd time and he drops for good. Sure glad I didn't NEED that 3rd round to save myself or someone else. Given the chance and assuming proper operation, I'll opt for a blind magazine every time.
Probably the biggest reason is the handiness for cleaning. Next would be for clearing a jam on a rifle that has to work but, did not for whatever reason. I agree anything can happen even after 30 years of not happening. And if made and operated by man, nothing is infallible. I too have a few M70's, Rugers, Interarms X's, and others in larger medium bores including a CZ synthetic in 458 Lott. Thus far no issues with the floor plates opening if fitted and assembled/ reassembled correctly or not mechanically worn. But, I agree anything can happen. Just my preference, I am not advocating someone else's choice. I have had used ones with floor plate screws. Which usually indicated there was an existing mechanical issue. Or with inside the bow releases, someone's finger had activated the release during recoil.
As someone said most times the rifle you drag along for a hunt up here in Alaska usually becomes your bear rifle as well. Well this is the rifle I used this yr. It shoots 145 ELD-X very well, carries very well. Yes its a 270 Winchester.
I'm pretty sure hunting a brown bear is not in my future but if by a miracle it happened I'd take my 300 win mag with 200 NPs. I use it for almost all my big game hunts. It has a 6x on it, I'd probably consider swapping a 3x that I have on it for a BB hunt.
I guide and hunt around Grizzlies here and carry a pre64 70 in 06 with 220s. It is a standard but I swapped a 22" barrel in. Has a Lyman peep.
For a bear defense gun, I would go with a pump Remington (Model 6, 760, 7600 in different eras) in .35 Whelen shooting 250 grain bullets. I spent some of my younger years shooting doves and some quail with an 870 and shucking one is second nature for me. I'd probably send it off somewhere and have some fancy durable/slick coating put on it.
I also have a 20" stainless Ruger in .375R with a 4x Zeiss that I bought after packing out a deer in the dark, near Yellowstone NP, and cutting fresh bear tracks on top of mine. The warning brochure that Wyoming F&G puts in with your tag when you are hunting around the park will make the hair on your neck stand up.
I've an aged Winchester in the larder(OEM 22 Hornet),that a Sourdough largely cut his teeth on. It has over 100 Brown Bear to it's credit and over 200 Eagles(Bounty days) and some 500++ Seals. While the numbers aren't really lineal,they are certainly ascending.
When you only have,what you have...it likely can't be pressed into service and fair well.
I've an aged Winchester in the larder(OEM 22 Hornet),that a Sourdough largely cut his teeth on. It has over 100 Brown Bear to it's credit and over 200 Eagles(Bounty days) and some 500++ Seals. While the numbers aren't really lineal,they are certainly ascending.
When you only have,what you have...it likely can't be pressed into service and fair well.
He shot a "smidge".......................(grin)
That's pretty darn cool, Did he say what he used for bullets or whatever was available at the time?
Those that have 375s in Edge fill stocks any issues? McMillan at first said 300 mag was max for an edge fill stock. If the action area is solid carbon & resin I can't imagine this failing although graphite seems more brittle than glass or I could have seen graphite that was not fully wetted, out not sure which.
Hal Waugh went through three wood stocks on his 375 Weatherby on I believe a Mauser action. Part of this could be the weather on Kodiak and amount of time on the water. Andy Runyon liked a 40 something rifle and a softer bullet. Both of these guides have shot at least as many Bear as Phil has.
I am in the no bear camp but carried a 7 mag., 444 Marlin, a 12 gauge riot gun with Brenneke slugs and 00 buckshot, a 45 colt Ruger Bisley and a 44 mag. while guiding fishermen, Now I would go with a 375 or a 45/70 guide gun if given the choice.
I spent a few days in the bear woods, my go to rifles are ;
450 GNR - 420 gr or 460 gr Cast Performance - Marlin 1895 416 Taylor - 350 or 400gr Barnes - Ruger 77 MK II 405 Winchester - 360 Gr Northfork or 400 gr Woodleigh - Winchester 1895 375 H & H - 300 gr NP - BRNO 602 35 Whelen - 280 gr A-Frame Mauser 98, Remintgon Classic or Winchester 1895
Don’t ask me questions!...Just write what you’d want, need and expect from the rifle in a caliber of your choice. Stock, action, barrel length and optics, iron sites or both.
Turns out I've got what I'd use for both:
Client/DIY rifle: 325 WSM from Montana Rifle. Loaded with 220gr Weldcores at 2850 ft/s. I chose the MRC over Winchester because of the simple trigger. It checks all the boxes - sufficient cartridge, reliable feed and robust extraction/ejection, acceptable accuracy.
Guide/stopping rifle: Browning M71 in .50-110 with a 500gr Weldcore soft followed by solids
yes i own alot of big bore rifles and probably would use either one of 338 win mags or 375 H&H`S , but really just a simple 30-06 with 180 0r 200 grain soft points would work just fine on a big bear. i have shot enough black bears with my bow with hand sharpened broadheads to know how to kill any bear except maybe polar bears they fight back ,i would want a 375 H&H or bigger then,even Fred Bear had trouble with polar bears with a bow.
I built a 375 H&H on a SS 700. 20" barrel, McMillan Classic. Had the barreled action ceracoated. Were I doing that again, it would probably get BlackT instead of ceracoat.
I've not killed a bear with it. Killed a couple caribou and a moose.
I ran a SWFA 1-4 on it until that [bleep] the bed. Wears a 6x42 Leupold now.
I built a 375 H&H on a SS 700. 20" barrel, McMillan Classic. Had the barreled action ceracoated. Were I doing that again, it would probably get BlackT instead of ceracoat.
I've not killed a bear with it. Killed a couple caribou and a moose.
I ran a SWFA 1-4 on it until that [bleep] the bed. Wears a 6x42 Leupold now.
Your SS [bleep] the bed? Do tell. First case of that I have heard of. I have the same scope on a .308, it has been tops so far. Got one of their 3x9’s on another rifle, it has been good too. Curious to hear what happened with yours.
Guys I’m SO late to this party but I’ve read it ALL to get up to date. I’ve never hunted bears and probably never will hunt Alaska, however fantasizing is FUN and let’s us “ Dream On”.
I have a 30-06, 300 WM, & 8 mm RM. Any one will get the job done BUT you can’t get any better recommendation than from someone with a lifetime of experience.
Originally Posted by 458Win
I have spent almost four decades agonizing over the same thing and now have a rack full of them. A couple of G series stainless M 70 338 Win, another in 375 H&H , a Ruger Mk II M 77 that Bill Atkinson converted to 375 H&H, a couple of 375 Rugers, another in 416 Ruger, an FN Mauser Charlie Sisk built in 375 Ruger , a couple 9.3x62's , another couple 30-06s and my 458.
They are all "perfect"
For myself, preparing for any situation in Alaska Big Bear territory, I’d opt for a CRF, 375 HH, 22” bll., SS, Composite stock.
A friend let me play with his 375 HH some years ago and I was pleasantly surprised how manageable the recoil was. I have shot one enuff to have confidence in my ability to use it & keep my composure ***as far as the Rifle is concerned*** !
Someone in another thread per recoil said something along this line ? " when the bear charged I fired/shot 3 Xs and the recoil was about 5 OUNCES" ?
Lacking Mr. Phil’s experience, I’d just FEEL better with a 375 more than an 06.
Thanks for an enjoyable thread and letting me fantasize.
I'll play. A 22" M70 CF chambered in 9.3x62. Slap it in a McMillan FWT stock scoped with a 1.5-5X Leupy. Talley LWTs for the rings/mts. Come and get it, Yogi! 😃
After the first trip into an alder patch with an unhappy bear in residence a 22" barrel starts looking like a javelin. Puts you in the mind to remove slings and anything else that might hangup on the way to the desired vectors.
After the first trip into an alder patch with an unhappy bear in residence a 22" barrel starts looking like a javelin. Puts you in the mind to remove slings and anything else that might hangup on the way to the desired vectors.
I was pondering that very thing after I posted above. What length do you think is ideal for big bruins? 20"? Less?
JES Rebored .35 Whelen with NECG peep cut to 20" and a fiber optic Remington front sight. Loaded with 225 TSXs I feel comfortable with anything Montana has to offer. I am sure it would work just fine for the "Hunter" rifle the OP talks about. Probably not the true stopper I would want if I was guiding and backing up for truly big bears but I have ZERO experience with any of the big boys.
Anybody with actual experience with angry coastals up close and personal have an opinion on a 225 TSX @ 2600 and change as a back up gun. I am thinking it would feel a bit puny.
After the first trip into an alder patch with an unhappy bear in residence a 22" barrel starts looking like a javelin. Puts you in the mind to remove slings and anything else that might hangup on the way to the desired vectors.
I was pondering that very thing after I posted above. What length do you think is ideal for big bruins? 20"? Less?
20" is what I use. I have followed up with longer and did not like it.
JES Rebored .35 Whelen with NECG peep cut to 20" and a fiber optic Remington front sight. Loaded with 225 TSXs I feel comfortable with anything Montana has to offer. I am sure it would work just fine for the "Hunter" rifle the OP talks about. Probably not the true stopper I would want if I was guiding and backing up for truly big bears but I have ZERO experience with any of the big boys.
Anybody with actual experience with angry coastals up close and personal have an opinion on a 225 TSX @ 2600 and change as a back up gun. I am thinking it would feel a bit puny.
The Whelen would be more than adequate and I like monos for bears. I use the the 210 TTSX in 338 and the 370 in the 375AI.
After the first trip into an alder patch with an unhappy bear in residence a 22" barrel starts looking like a javelin. Puts you in the mind to remove slings and anything else that might hangup on the way to the desired vectors.
I was pondering that very thing after I posted above. What length do you think is ideal for big bruins? 20"? Less?
20" is what I use. I have followed up with longer and did not like it.
Your SS [bleep] the bed? Do tell. First case of that I have heard of. I have the same scope on a .308, it has been tops so far. Got one of their 3x9’s on another rifle, it has been good too. Curious to hear what happened with yours.
I missed a moose at 120 yards or so, which isn't impossible, but isn't easy either. So, just set that rifle aside and grabbed my backup rifle for the rest of the trip. Got home and couldn't hit paper at 100. Could focus either reticle or target, but never both. So i hauled it off, put the 6x42 leupold back on there and set the 1-4 on top of the gun safe to send back when I had time. Shot a moose about 100 yards away from where I had missed the moose the year before.
Then on November 30, we had a little shake and the 1-4 took a 6 foot fall onto concrete and smacked the objective "bell" pretty good. So I still haven't sent it in to see WTF. I don't hate it as a play time scope, and loved that magnification range, but it didn't really have the eye relief for a .375. Prior to its death, it was 100% reliable in both adjustment and RTZ. Shot several 2" groups and bunches of sub 3" groups at 300 yards with that rifle.
I had a SS LH Rugeer MK II rebarelled into a No 3 SS Douglas and chambered in 9.3x62. Then had the laminate factory stock reshaped and recontoured and drilled to get some weight out of it. Having a twin made up in 7x57 now.
After the first trip into an alder patch with an unhappy bear in residence a 22" barrel starts looking like a javelin. Puts you in the mind to remove slings and anything else that might hangup on the way to the desired vectors.
Great advice Sitka. Is it just me, or does it seem as if the the territory chooses the rifle, rather than our choosing? We end up taking the hint and adjusting to what's ideal. I'm just shy of 3 decades of hunting and the 20 inch barrel has proven to be ideal. I call them all canoe carbines, they've always had a 20 inch barrel.
The only time it wasn't in my lifetime, was when the Army issued me a brand spankin-new M4 carbine on my third and final one-year tour in Iraq. That 16" barrel sure wielded in and out of armored vehicles like a dream after prior deployments with a worn out A2.
After the first trip into an alder patch with an unhappy bear in residence a 22" barrel starts looking like a javelin. Puts you in the mind to remove slings and anything else that might hangup on the way to the desired vectors.
Great advice Sitka. Is it just me, or does it seem as if the the territory chooses the rifle, rather than our choosing? We end up taking the hint and adjusting to what's ideal. I'm just shy of 3 decades of hunting and the 20 inch barrel has proven to be ideal. I call them all canoe carbines, they've always had a 20 inch barrel.
The only time it wasn't in my lifetime, was when the Army issued me a brand spankin-new M4 carbine on my third and final one-year tour in Iraq. That 16" barrel sure wielded in and out of armored vehicles like a dream after prior deployments with a worn out A2.
It only chooses the rifle if you are listening! For example, I took a Ruger 77V on a sheep hunt once. Even killed a sheep...
I doubt I'll be hunting Grizzlies anytime but I do recreate and livfactory e in their territory and lately a few have been killed not far from my home, both illegally and legally situations. More than likely my bear rifle would be whatever is in hand. But being a lefty (left handed) there's fewer choices for us in rifles with higher heavy horsepower, but I have a few.
Perhaps the best factory rifle I've had that was an total knock out of the park for lefties was the now discontinued Ruger compact magnum rifle. Mine is the 338 RCM 20" barrel version. It's a dream for lefties and I am so thankful I got one before they were discontinued.
The rest are leverguns. Marlin 45-70 rifle Winchester 1886 450 Alaskan Browning model 71 348 Ackley
Cboujack...How’d you think a 338 WM stuffed with 250g NPT would do for ya on a half-ton Brownie? I mean a very pissed off Brownie? 😎
Sorry, I didn't come back to this thread, until today. The answer would have to be that depends on the guy operating the equipment. Nothing wrong with the rifle or the round. To be honest the only Brown bear I shot I my Sako 375 H&H, 300 grain Partitions. It worked just fine too. It started with a wood stock, but I put it in a McMillan stock. I like it better. Used a 1.5 X 5 Vari-X III. But alas it was blue. I've actually had 2 of them. I've had 4 or 5 Winchester mod 70 375 H&H's. I think they are heavier than they need to be. The 375 recoil isn't that bad. I've had more than a few Ruger MKII 338's. The number of them that are poor shooters are few and far between in my experience. IMO if things go back shoot from a kneeling postion. Put's you in a better position, and height to not shoot over the bear. Hunting a Bear and running into a bear are two different things.
After a very, very close black bear encounter (shoot in defense of life and limb) up in the NW corner of Saskatchewan while moose hunting, I thought a Browning BAR Lightweight stalker in 338 win mag would make a great bear defense gun, no bolt to work. The amount of ground covered by the bear after the first shot into the ground in front of her to try and avert her charge (we unknowingly walked into her cubs) was amazing! I hardly had time to work the bolt in time for the second shot at about 7 feet! Thankfully, she was no match for the 250 grain Barnes TSX out of my 338 win mag at point blank range. I would have really liked to have avoided that whole situation, but we were on the heels of a big bull and moving fast, and we just didn't see her or her cubs. We walked right into the cubs as we came over the top of a hill. The second year cubs let out their alarm bark and were up a tree almost as fast as you could move your head to follow them. A quick look around and we saw momma coming at us like a shadow moving along the ground. Anyone that thinks they can out run, or out climb, a bear has never been in this situation, their speed is just incredible! It worked out in our favor this time, but who knows what the ending would be if it ever happens again! After settling ourselves down, and cleaning out our pants, we continued after the bull moose and ended up seeing him at about a thousand yards as he came up out of the lake he just swam across. He was in fact a nice big bull, but no luck this time, we had already used up our luck for the day. We went back to the bear and my guide skinned it out and we hung it up in a tree (dark by this time) and came back the next day to haul her out. The guide, and his family, processed every ounce of the bear. And yes, I had, and used, my bear tag on it. She just wasn't the bear I had hoped to use it on. Anyway, I still think a BAR in 338 win mag would be an asset.
Easy to say. I'm not saying it was right or wrong, it's just what happened.
Been in the position quite a few times. Mostly they pull in the reins on their own. But when you have a bear coming hard shooting a warning shot simply compromises your position. It is time to shoot when it is time to shoot the bear.
I have several rifles I am comfortable carrying in Grizzly country. We have a LOT of grizzlies around the places I hunt commonly.
The first thing I address is the question "am I hunting" or am I in "grizzly-land" for another purpose, such as hiking, fishing, trapping, or coming with another hunter as a camp-friend and helper.
If I am hunting I will often choose a rifle with a scope. Not always, but most times, because my eyes are as old as the rest of me, and I can't see very well in dim light so iron sights are not as good for me as they once were.
The scoped guns that I feel fine with are my 30-06 scout, my 300 H&H, my 8X57, three of my four 9.3MMs (9.3X57, 9.3X62 and 9.3X74R) my 375H&H, (which is the one I have used the most over the last 42 years) or my 404 Jeffery. When I am hunting in the areas where there are a lot of grizzlies, the 375 has been my "standard" for a long time and that's pretty much how I still see it, but the 9.3X62 is just as good for the purpose.
Rifles I often carry if I am not hunting are my M-1 Garand loaded with 220 grain bullets, (the M1 is usually my 1st choice) my M95 Lever action in 30-06 loaded with the same ammo, my 9.3X57 Husqvarna loaded with 286 grain Partitions, or my Ruger SR762 with the scope removed, and loaded with 180 grain Partitions. I might start carrying my 9.3X62 more, but for that purpose I'll use the detachable scope mount and simply use the iron sights.
The un-scoped rifles carry easier and are handier. I can't shoot them as well as I can the scoped rifles, but a bear is not dangerous until it's close to you, and at close range I still shoot them fast and very well. Contrary to what many believe, a low power scope is FASTER to make a shot with at any range, but the reason I use bear rifles with no scope is because of the handiness of the gun when it is not scoped. Just as when I was a Marine and later a Sheriff's deputy, the real issue is not having a weapon you can get into action 1 second faster, but it's about situational awareness, and the rifle should be "ready" because your mind is ready. As I said before, a bear is not dangerous at all until it's close. If you assume you are being hunted and you are wrong you loose nothing. If you assume you are safe and you are wrong...........well we know how that works out don't we? This year we has several example of that.
So bear rifles are used in 2 cases. #1 Those where the bear is a fellow hunter and #2 those that the bear is the only hunter.
For the purpose of this thread I assume we are speaking of only the 1st "mission statement. Living close to them as I do, I find that about 3/4 of the time I am not hunting when I am out in the field with them. So my choices are somewhat different at those times then what I might recommend to hunters who do not "live with them."
A hunters "bear rifle" is no different then any other hunting rifle but for the fact it must be powerful and shoot a bullet that will not break up on heavy muscle and bone. Bolt actions are the most common, but good lever actions and autos are also very good for the purpose. A Remington pump in 30-06, or better yet a 35 Whelen would be fine too. (keep the bolt face and extractor clean with these rifles.)
A defensive arm for big bears shares many of the same qualities as a hunting rifle but need not be a long range tool. If you shoot at 75 yards and farther you are not in a defensive role. A 12 gauge loaded with good slugs is ok for the purpose of defense..
I lean towards the M1 because it's a very proven fighting weapon. With the right ammo, shooting at the front of a bear (as you would be, if you NEEDED to shoot one) the 30-06 is just fine. 8 of them is even better, and the M1 kicks little enough that rapid accurate fire at close range is easy.
i have a few bear rifles but if i went after bears in Alaska the only 3 cartridges i would consider to use is 30-06 ,338 win.mag or a 375 H&H my reason ease of finding more ammo ,my favorite would be a 338 Win. mag., the only bolt actions i would consider is either a Winchester or a Ruger with a claw , the only scope i now would consider is a smaller Nightforce or a 6x leupold with Picatinny mounts or Ruger rings and the 22 inch barrel of the rifle would have good sights on it too just in case. i would want all S.S. metal and either plastic or wood laminated stock. i already own a 338 Win. mag Ruger S.S. laminated i got cheap as a FFL dealer so a would just take this rifle to Alaska .
I had Hill Country Rifles make this for me as a bear and moose rifle. It's a 700 Classic with 21" stainless Benchmark barrel, chambered in 35 Whelen. McMillan Remington Sporter stock, PTG stainless steel bottom metal, and a S&B Zenith 1.1-4x24 with FD9 reticle.
I 'd want mine to be built on a commercial 98 Mauser action (FN or Interarms), 21" or 22" barrel and chambered in 35 Whelen or 9.3X62. I'd scope it with something between 2.5-4X on a 1 piece mount. I'd want a set of iron sights with a gold bead front sight. Wood or synthetic stock. It wouldn't matter to me.
I had Hill Country Rifles make this for me as a bear and moose rifle. It's a 700 Classic with 21" stainless Benchmark barrel, chambered in 35 Whelen. McMillan Remington Sporter stock, PTG stainless steel bottom metal, and a S&B Zenith 1.1-4x24 with FD9 reticle.
Had a fellow insist on using his bipod on a bear hunt up here... Things did not go at all well. They are absolutely the last piece of equipment I would put on a bear gun. Actually I would never use one. Not to mention stuff that will get hung up in tight cover.
I had Hill Country Rifles make this for me as a bear and moose rifle. It's a 700 Classic with 21" stainless Benchmark barrel, chambered in 35 Whelen. McMillan Remington Sporter stock, PTG stainless steel bottom metal, and a S&B Zenith 1.1-4x24 with FD9 reticle.
Had a fellow insist on using his bipod on a bear hunt up here... Things did not go at all well. They are absolutely the last piece of equipment I would put on a bear gun. Actually I would never use one. Not to mention stuff that will get hung up in tight cover.
I had Hill Country Rifles make this for me as a bear and moose rifle. It's a 700 Classic with 21" stainless Benchmark barrel, chambered in 35 Whelen. McMillan Remington Sporter stock, PTG stainless steel bottom metal, and a S&B Zenith 1.1-4x24 with FD9 reticle.
Had a fellow insist on using his bipod on a bear hunt up here... Things did not go at all well. They are absolutely the last piece of equipment I would put on a bear gun. Actually I would never use one. Not to mention stuff that will get hung up in tight cover.
The bipod was just to hold it for the picture. I don’t hunt with it.
I had Hill Country Rifles make this for me as a bear and moose rifle. It's a 700 Classic with 21" stainless Benchmark barrel, chambered in 35 Whelen. McMillan Remington Sporter stock, PTG stainless steel bottom metal, and a S&B Zenith 1.1-4x24 with FD9 reticle.
Had a fellow insist on using his bipod on a bear hunt up here... Things did not go at all well. They are absolutely the last piece of equipment I would put on a bear gun. Actually I would never use one. Not to mention stuff that will get hung up in tight cover.
The bipod was just to hold it for the picture. I don’t hunt with it.
Dean, glad you’re still with us....Not a situation I ever want to find myself in...😎
Thanks Beaver10
When I think about this and remember the events, I'm still just amazed how fast it all happened. I can still hear her popping her teeth and see her ears laid flat on her head! This is why I thought a Browning BAR Lightweight Stalker in 338 Win Mag would be a great choice.
The picture makes several of those things look like you say. Grabbing the ear is special, too. Over the years I have posted quite a few bear pictures. They are still there. Blacks, browns and interior bears. That is not a picture I would want any part of.
The picture makes several of those things look like you say. Grabbing the ear is special, too. Over the years I have posted quite a few bear pictures. They are still there. Blacks, browns and interior bears. That is not a picture I would want any part of.
Trust me dbag if we’re in the same picture frame someone is snapping clips your ass getting beat. Hint.
The picture makes several of those things look like you say. Grabbing the ear is special, too. Over the years I have posted quite a few bear pictures. They are still there. Blacks, browns and interior bears. That is not a picture I would want any part of.
Trust me dbag if we’re in the same picture frame someone is snapping clips your ass getting beat. Hint.
And I don’t hunt with crooks. Rehint
And out comes the internet tough guy... impressive. Not.
The picture makes several of those things look like you say. Grabbing the ear is special, too. Over the years I have posted quite a few bear pictures. They are still there. Blacks, browns and interior bears. That is not a picture I would want any part of.
Trust me dbag if we’re in the same picture frame someone is snapping clips your ass getting beat. Hint.
And I don’t hunt with crooks. Rehint
And out comes the internet tough guy... impressive. Not.
All your pictures look like you suck cock! Do you or does it just APPEAR as such. LOL. Good time to deflect if possible. Rehint I don’t hunt with Thieves
After a very, very close black bear encounter (shoot in defense of life and limb) up in the NW corner of Saskatchewan while moose hunting, I thought a Browning BAR Lightweight stalker in 338 win mag would make a great bear defense gun, no bolt to work. The amount of ground covered by the bear after the first shot into the ground in front of her to try and avert her charge (we unknowingly walked into her cubs) was amazing! I hardly had time to work the bolt in time for the second shot at about 7 feet! Thankfully, she was no match for the 250 grain Barnes TSX out of my 338 win mag at point blank range. I would have really liked to have avoided that whole situation, but we were on the heels of a big bull and moving fast, and we just didn't see her or her cubs. We walked right into the cubs as we came over the top of a hill. The second year cubs let out their alarm bark and were up a tree almost as fast as you could move your head to follow them. A quick look around and we saw momma coming at us like a shadow moving along the ground. Anyone that thinks they can out run, or out climb, a bear has never been in this situation, their speed is just incredible! It worked out in our favor this time, but who knows what the ending would be if it ever happens again! After settling ourselves down, and cleaning out our pants, we continued after the bull moose and ended up seeing him at about a thousand yards as he came up out of the lake he just swam across. He was in fact a nice big bull, but no luck this time, we had already used up our luck for the day. We went back to the bear and my guide skinned it out and we hung it up in a tree (dark by this time) and came back the next day to haul her out. The guide, and his family, processed every ounce of the bear. And yes, I had, and used, my bear tag on it. She just wasn't the bear I had hoped to use it on. Anyway, I still think a BAR in 338 win mag would be an asset.
Couple of questions, #1 why did you have to shoot the bear?? Those situations are usually handled by the guide. Please dont tell me he was unarmed....#2 how could you tag a sow with cubs? Its OK to kill a sow in a DLP situation, but they dont make you tag it, nor are you usually allowed to keep the hide. There are exceptions to this, but they are rare and almost always involve a boar, not a sow with cubs....
Im not arm chair quarterbacking here....obviously the bear had to be killed. I've been in that same situation more than once myself. Just a few years ago I had to kill a sow grizzly and her cub. My only point is that sows with cubs are protected so why would you tag it?? I also dont understand what the guide was doing......maybe he didnt have time??? Maybe he was unarmed?? Cant imagine that but I know a few guides who dont pack rifles so its possible...
BTW Dean, a friend of mine in BC has been carrying a BAR in 338 for many years. He has taken a lot of bears with it over the years. Not my choice, but its a decent choice just the same.
A pards bear from a couple years ago, came up behind him. Sako A7 300 win 180 Hornadys.... he was a little wound up when he called me, look close you can probably see powder burns on it’s face!! 🤣🤣
A pards bear from a couple years ago, came up behind him. Sako A7 300 win 180 Hornadys.... he was a little wound up when he called me, look close you can probably see powder burns on it’s face!! 🤣🤣
THAT picture says a thousand words! I had a two-year old black bear sneak up on me once. He also tried to get me from the rear. Luckily I heard him in time and had a 12-gauge with buck handy. Even that buckshot didnt do that kind of damage.
yukon254, guide had a rifle, just the way the bear came at us put the guide behind me. But I honestly don't know if he had a shot or not, I was focused on something else! It literally happened faster than I can type this. I shot it, I just automatically tagged it. I've hunted up there more times after this happened, and hope to get up there again. Lots of moose, bear and wolves up there, and the fires in Alberta, from a couple years ago, have even pushed some deer into the area.
For me it would be one of my 35 Whelens, 45-70, or my just acquired 400 Whelen. I'll be getting a 338 Win. Mag. from my Uncle, it will be a good one too.
For me it would be one of my 35 Whelens, 45-70, or my just acquired 400 Whelen. I'll be getting a 338 Win. Mag. from my Uncle, it will be a good one too.
The 400 Whelen is an interesting round. How are you making brass for it?
For me it would be one of my 35 Whelens, 45-70, or my just acquired 400 Whelen. I'll be getting a 338 Win. Mag. from my Uncle, it will be a good one too.
The 400 Whelen is an interesting round. How are you making brass for it?
Did not realize it was now that easy. I was talking with Michael Petrov during and after his work to make brass without fireforming. He had to get brass at the first drawing and size it from there. It complicated things...
The 400 has been on my brain a few times. Seems like a neat old cartridge. Might be pretty easy for JES to turn one up without too much drama. As long as brass is there I can’t see it being too bad.
The 400 has been on my brain a few times. Seems like a neat old cartridge. Might be pretty easy for JES to turn one up without too much drama. As long as brass is there I can’t see it being too bad.
I’ve pondered it as well, or the 375 whelen/skovill...
The 400 has been on my brain a few times. Seems like a neat old cartridge. Might be pretty easy for JES to turn one up without too much drama. As long as brass is there I can’t see it being too bad.
Not much shoulder to play with! I got to handle Michael's 400 and the brass at the various stages. It is an interesting thing for sure.
The 400 has been on my brain a few times. Seems like a neat old cartridge. Might be pretty easy for JES to turn one up without too much drama. As long as brass is there I can’t see it being too bad.
I’ve pondered it as well, or the 375 whelen/skovill...
This ^^^^^ I believe the 375 is about as far as is reasonable for consistence head space, and that's pushing it.
The 400 has been on my brain a few times. Seems like a neat old cartridge. Might be pretty easy for JES to turn one up without too much drama. As long as brass is there I can’t see it being too bad.
I’ve pondered it as well, or the 375 whelen/skovill...
Any of those would be pretty cool in my book. I’ve got a good Whelen and a 375 Improved so I don’t need nothing but I’ve dug the 400. Ol Elmer clipped a bunch of game with his. I happen to have a 280 Hawkeye I really don’t need and it’s too heavy to be a 280 in my book. Might make a good 9.3 or 400 depending on what Jess says.
The 400 has been on my brain a few times. Seems like a neat old cartridge. Might be pretty easy for JES to turn one up without too much drama. As long as brass is there I can’t see it being too bad.
Jesse and I did just that with my wildcat. He stamped it: 41 OM. It stands for 41 Occumpaugh & Manzo. No fire-forming is necessary. Some of the whippy barrels might not have sufficient thickness for the rebore.
Rather than the fire-forming required for the 400 whelen using cylindrical brass, cream of wheat, and all the other stuff: the 41 O&M is simple. It only requires you to take a dirt cheap PRVI 9.3x62 brass case, and size up the neck to accept a .410 bullet, rather than the .411 bullet of the Whelen. It's as simple as resizing 308 win brass to 358 win brass.
I used to think that I needed to fireform them, to "define" the shoulder a bit more, but there's no need.
.410-411 are the real deal, and with the 400 whelen-type cartridges, the recovery from recoil is insanely fast because the recoil is negligible. Being a 4-5 down gun, a bit more forgiving if you miss or wound on the running shot. I can't say the same for a .416 Rem Mag. It's a very long bolt pull, and the recoil feels twice that of my 41 O&M:
yukon254, guide had a rifle, just the way the bear came at us put the guide behind me. But I honestly don't know if he had a shot or not, I was focused on something else! It literally happened faster than I can type this. I shot it, I just automatically tagged it. I've hunted up there more times after this happened, and hope to get up there again. Lots of moose, bear and wolves up there, and the fires in Alberta, from a couple years ago, have even pushed some deer into the area.
Im glad it worked out the way it did, and real good job on your part. Guides love having guys like you that actually know how to handle themselves and their rifles in tough situations. My thoughts on these situations mirror the sentiments Tim Sundles shares on his website. Like Tim, I put human safety above anything else. If a bear acts curious, aggressive, or even just seems off a bit, kill it as soon as you possibly can. All this nonsense about trying to figure out if a bear is bluffing is pure hogwash in my world. When they cross that line they die, cubs or not.
Yukon, my mother was a bear hunting guide, and like you, plenty of stories of predatory behavior from the big ones. I have an old book with traditional stories from my great, great grandfather, Chief Peter Tenass of Eel Ground, New Brunswick, and his brother Chief John Tenass from Red Bank, New Brunswick. The stories were recorded in 1911.
When a bear killed a mother and her children, those Micmac Indians went to the woods, and killed every bear in the area. Over a hundred bear. They left only one. Not even Indians believe in that "save the bear" bullsht.
For those idiots who claim that being mindful and cautious are more important than carrying a gun, just recently in about the past 5 years:
1. An old coworker was killed near Eagle River while hiking.
2. Just a few miles from my cabin, two remarkable young women were hurt badly by a black bear, one died.
3. An old classmate, kenny, was badly mauled outside of Juneau.
4. At a tribal gathering in Lilooet, BC a few years ago, some tribal members told me about their grandmother recently being eaten alive behind her home by a black bear.
In all four instances, they were unarmed, and did nothing wrong.
When I was in a village on Illiamna Lake, no bear walked through the village with children playing about and lived another day. Those bears were dealt with. Human lives are more important than warning shots. Make that shot count.......
Wow Mainer I would love to read that book. Those Elders that lived on the land were / are great people. I've been lucky enough to spend most of my life among the Cree, and they are the finest people I have ever known. I learned to hunt from them. When I was about 9 my dad hired an old Cree fellow to help us on the ranch. His name was Maxi Desjarlas and he never owned a car or had a drivers license in his life. He lived off the land, trapping in winter for cash money. The Moberly country where we lived was bush country. Real thick stuff. You had to be able to hunt if you were going to put food on the table. Many times I remember Maxi killing bull moose in their bed.
Those Elders also didnt take chances with bears.Especially grizzly bears. In their culture they considered the grizzly bear a bad man. They would describe a big bodied bear as a 'big man.' Took me years to understand that. They were referring to a grizzlies intelligence. Anyone who has much experience around them will realize just how smart they are. I've actually watched them use what can only be described as reasoning skills to get themselves out of bad situations.
A friend of mine was killed a few years ago by a grizzly. He was on a solo sheep hunt in Alberta and walked right into a big sow with cubs feeding on a deer they had killed. His rifle was in one of those pack scabbards and he wasn't able to use it. I heard later that the scene was pretty bad....he had gotten to a knife and likely stuck the bear a few times. She or most likely both her and the cubs, turned up the heat and the result was pretty nasty.
In another fatality that happened the same year about 12 miles from my home, a grizzly came through the window of this couples home. They made it outside but the bear followed them and caught the wife in the driveway. The husband did get to a gun and killed the bear. I know one of the paramedics that was involved, and he said he hasn't seen anything like it in 30-years.
They are nothing to fool with. They have the ability to do a lot of damage in a very short period of time. Im thinking your 95 is about as good a bear gun as I've ever seen. Im searching for one in good shape now.
The 400 has been on my brain a few times. Seems like a neat old cartridge. Might be pretty easy for JES to turn one up without too much drama. As long as brass is there I can’t see it being too bad.
Jesse and I did just that with my wildcat. He stamped it: 41 OM. It stands for 41 Occumpaugh & Manzo. No fire-forming is necessary. Some of the whippy barrels might not have sufficient thickness for the rebore.
Rather than the fire-forming required for the 400 whelen using cylindrical brass, cream of wheat, and all the other stuff: the 41 O&M is simple. It only requires you to take a dirt cheap PRVI 9.3x62 brass case, and size up the neck to accept a .410 bullet, rather than the .411 bullet of the Whelen. It's as simple as resizing 308 win brass to 358 win brass.
I used to think that I needed to fireform them, to "define" the shoulder a bit more, but there's no need.
.410-411 are the real deal, and with the 400 whelen-type cartridges, the recovery from recoil is insanely fast because the recoil is negligible. Being a 4-5 down gun, a bit more forgiving if you miss or wound on the running shot. I can't say the same for a .416 Rem Mag. It's a very long bolt pull, and the recoil feels twice that of my 41 O&M:
Instead of $2.15 per brass case for the cylindrical brass (currently on back order per midwayusa), you'll be at 52 cents per brass case with the 41 O&M and no fire forming:
I'm unsure why Quality Cartridge charges such a price for those things? It's a cylindrical case that hasn't undergone any forming, you'd think that would make them cheaper than even a formed 30-06 case.
For reference, a Norma 9.3x62 brass case is usually about $1.00 per brass case.
Instead of $2.15 per brass case for the cylindrical brass (currently on back order per midwayusa), you'll be at 52 cents per brass case with the 41 O&M and no fire forming:
I'm unsure why Quality Cartridge charges such a price for those things? It's a cylindrical case that hasn't undergone any forming, you'd think that would make them cheaper than even a formed 30-06 case.
For reference, a Norma 9.3x62 brass case is usually about $1.00 per brass case.
Thanks Mainer. I’d like to know what you did for dies and such. I have a Ruger 280 Hawkeye sitting here just begging to get made over. Pretty sure there’d be plenty of meat in them chunky Ruger barrels.
Interior grizzly with my 30-06 Rem 700 and 200 gr Nosler Partitions. Have to admit that a couple of 225 gr Barnes TSX bullets from the guide's rifle ended up in the bear as well. There was quite a bit of shooting going on, in a hurry, at modest range.
I hunt all sorts of critters with the 30-06, so it seemed like a good choice for the grizzly hunt as well. Accurate & reliable. Still a favorite.
The black bears I've taken weren't huge, roughly 6 feet, pretty much normal for an adult boar where I hunt in Washington. Used either my 30-06 or a 375 H&H Ruger Number One on them. Ranges were from really close, like 15' out to over 300 yards.
There’s a local guy here that guided every year for decades in the Yukon. His do-everything rifle was a pre-64 338 WM stoked with 250 Partitions. That rifle accounted for over 50 grizzlies.
I do have this 375 H&H Model 70 with a Douglas Barrel. Shoots great! I just haven't hunted with it yet:
Love the stock, but perhaps it ought to go into a McMillan for serious bear-hunting chores. Not sure I'm ever going back for another "big bear" though. One, somehow seems enough.
Black bears? Oh heck ya, I love hunting the local black bear.
Almost four years ago, I was supposed to get dies made up, but never did.
I just neck up the brass to accept a 41 caliber bullet. I don't even resize new cases. In fired cases, I neck down with a 41 magnum pistol die and full length resize the bodies with a 9.3x62 die. I set the die so that is doesnt come near the neck. So about 3/4 of the case gets full length sized.
Prop the easiest way, is to just have an existing set of 9.3x62 dies modified. 100 yards up the hill there are a father and son duo that put together $15,000 rifles. From rendering bison bone ash for color case hardening, to carving solid planks of exotic wood into beautiful stocks, to building parts and heat treating them by hand. Those guys are the real-fkn-deal gunsmiths. The father once built a $75,000 rifle. He's a legend. Cracks me up, here in Alaska somebody splurts out some silly duracoat on a few cheap AR-15 parts, puts it together and calls himself a "gunsmith".
Anyhoo, 2 minute walk up the hill, I'd probably have modified a cheap set of dies five minutes later.
Almost four years ago, I was supposed to get dies made up, but never did.
I just neck up the brass to accept a 41 caliber bullet. I don't even resize new cases. In fired cases, I neck down with a 41 magnum pistol die and full length resize the bodies with a 9.3x62 die. I set the die so that is doesnt come near the neck. So about 3/4 of the case gets full length sized.
Prop the easiest way, is to just have an existing set of 9.3x62 dies modified. 100 yards up the hill there are a father and son duo that put together $15,000 rifles. From rendering bison bone ash for color case hardening, to carving solid planks of exotic wood into beautiful stocks, to building parts and heat treating them by hand. Those guys are the real-fkn-deal gunsmiths. The father once built a $75,000 rifle. He's a legend. Cracks me up, here in Alaska somebody splurts out some silly duracoat on a few cheap AR-15 parts, puts it together and calls himself a "gunsmith".
Anyhoo, 2 minute walk up the hill, I'd probably have modified a cheap set of dies five minutes later.
Got it. Thank you. Called Jess but his voicemail box is full. Might just send him the gun with a note.
One thing that Jesse did, that really impresses me, is that he made the shoulder area of the chamber real tight during finish reaming. Right where the little neck turns to the body of the case. If you were to rechamber full-power, once-fired cases, they actually have some slight resistance right on the last 1/8" of the lever stroke. Dmn good job he does.
Almost four years ago, I was supposed to get dies made up, but never did.
I just neck up the brass to accept a 41 caliber bullet. I don't even resize new cases. In fired cases, I neck down with a 41 magnum pistol die and full length resize the bodies with a 9.3x62 die. I set the die so that is doesnt come near the neck. So about 3/4 of the case gets full length sized.
Prop the easiest way, is to just have an existing set of 9.3x62 dies modified. 100 yards up the hill there are a father and son duo that put together $15,000 rifles. From rendering bison bone ash for color case hardening, to carving solid planks of exotic wood into beautiful stocks, to building parts and heat treating them by hand. Those guys are the real-fkn-deal gunsmiths. The father once built a $75,000 rifle. He's a legend. Cracks me up, here in Alaska somebody splurts out some silly duracoat on a few cheap AR-15 parts, puts it together and calls himself a "gunsmith".
Anyhoo, 2 minute walk up the hill, I'd probably have modified a cheap set of dies five minutes later.
Got it. Thank you. Called Jess but his voicemail box is full. Might just send him the gun with a note.
Almost four years ago, I was supposed to get dies made up, but never did.
I just neck up the brass to accept a 41 caliber bullet. I don't even resize new cases. In fired cases, I neck down with a 41 magnum pistol die and full length resize the bodies with a 9.3x62 die. I set the die so that is doesnt come near the neck. So about 3/4 of the case gets full length sized.
Prop the easiest way, is to just have an existing set of 9.3x62 dies modified. 100 yards up the hill there are a father and son duo that put together $15,000 rifles. From rendering bison bone ash for color case hardening, to carving solid planks of exotic wood into beautiful stocks, to building parts and heat treating them by hand. Those guys are the real-fkn-deal gunsmiths. The father once built a $75,000 rifle. He's a legend. Cracks me up, here in Alaska somebody splurts out some silly duracoat on a few cheap AR-15 parts, puts it together and calls himself a "gunsmith".
Anyhoo, 2 minute walk up the hill, I'd probably have modified a cheap set of dies five minutes later.
Got it. Thank you. Called Jess but his voicemail box is full. Might just send him the gun with a note.
You gonna do a 400 whelen up?
Not sure Judd, either the 400 Whelen or the cartridge Mainer did sounds pretty darned cool.
I’ll look a bit. It’s almost cheating sending a rifle to Jess cause they come back so quick.
I do have this 375 H&H Model 70 with a Douglas Barrel. Shoots great! I just haven't hunted with it yet:
Love the stock, but perhaps it ought to go into a McMillan for serious bear-hunting chores. Not sure I'm ever going back for another "big bear" though. One, somehow seems enough.
Black bears? Oh heck ya, I love hunting the local black bear.
Haha for sure!! I got a dandy model 88 308 I was thing 338 federal, but gonna do a 358 I think.... I'll have Jess do er up...
Too cool. I’ve got a SS 243 Hawkeye that doesn’t do much for me and reading another thread on the 338 made me wonder if they shouldn’t both go at the same time. I’ve got a BLR 358 that’s been a good meat getter as well. Figured a Hawkeye 338 might be fun to. Got tons of 338 bullets.
I do have this 375 H&H Model 70 with a Douglas Barrel. Shoots great! I just haven't hunted with it yet:
Love the stock, but perhaps it ought to go into a McMillan for serious bear-hunting chores. Not sure I'm ever going back for another "big bear" though. One, somehow seems enough.
Black bears? Oh heck ya, I love hunting the local black bear.
I do have this 375 H&H Model 70 with a Douglas Barrel. Shoots great! I just haven't hunted with it yet:
Love the stock, but perhaps it ought to go into a McMillan for serious bear-hunting chores. Not sure I'm ever going back for another "big bear" though. One, somehow seems enough.
Black bears? Oh heck ya, I love hunting the local black bear.
Guy
That's a dandy guy.
Jud, I agree Guy has a fine rifle there. This has been an enjoyable thread. I am no bear expert, killed a couple black bears with gay 270's. I do live in griz country but have been lucky and haven't had bear problems, that being said as a rifle loony of course I have built a couple " bear" rifles.... The first that would qualify is a Mauser in 9.3x62, the second is a Mauser (imagine that) in 338 Win mag. I suspect either would work fine for griz ? My 9.3
Interior grizzly with my 30-06 Rem 700 and 200 gr Nosler Partitions. Have to admit that a couple of 225 gr Barnes TSX bullets from the guide's rifle ended up in the bear as well. There was quite a bit of shooting going on, in a hurry, at modest range.
I hunt all sorts of critters with the 30-06, so it seemed like a good choice for the grizzly hunt as well. Accurate & reliable. Still a favorite.
The black bears I've taken weren't huge, roughly 6 feet, pretty much normal for an adult boar where I hunt in Washington. Used either my 30-06 or a 375 H&H Ruger Number One on them. Ranges were from really close, like 15' out to over 300 yards.
Griz & Elk are 2 animals I’ve wanted to hunt for many years. Obviously we don’t have Griz in Ark. Our Blacks are mostly on private or leased land AND mostly baited. Not my cup of tea.
I enter our annual Elk permit drawing every year since 99 or so. No luck, zip, nada, nuttin.
I saw a nice older interarms MKX in 7mm rem at a local shop today. Cheap plastic stock but the metal was all excellent. I picked it up and thought what could I build. 458 instantly came to mind. Pretty sure it was from reading about Phil's at some point. I'll probably never get to hunt grizzly unless they open up Idaho and I draw. But, I may make it back to Africa.
I've got several old 30-06s on commercial FN 98s. I hope to build one into a 9,3x62 one day and take it back to Africa. Maybe I'll run over to Dean Zollingers house this week and see if he's still around and has time for what he used to call Saturday quick cash work. Who makes a decent 9,3 barrel. I want to go stainless on the barrel and then cerakote the barreled action afterwards. Just looking for a utilitarian working gun.
There’s a local guy here that guided every year for decades in the Yukon. His do-everything rifle was a pre-64 338 WM stoked with 250 Partitions. That rifle accounted for over 50 grizzlies.
I love reading threads like this one , I will never be anywhere close to Grizzly or Brown bear country .. But if I was .... a 22 inch barrelled 9.3X62 would be my choice.. I had a custom Mauser in that flavor ... I thumped a few deer with it ... with 286gr RN should handle just about anything
I also have a Petrov chamber 400 whelen, mine has a .410 barrel.
Also having a rifle being built currently, at least in my mind, id rather carry for bear.
376 Steyr built on a M98 in a lightweight synthetic stock whole gun should weigh around 8lbs and a little change, with scope. 22" bbl in a fairly light contour
So, a late buddy of mine, that's killed more bear than probably all of us combined, swore by, a 44 and a 375 mdl 70 cut back to 20" .... Another ran a 88 308... These guys did timber company work back when most of us were suckin tittees..... It's amazing what a 240 jhp does to a bears face.....
Listened to a Podcast the other day and a guide from Alaska who has guided over 100 Grizz/Brown Bears recommends a 300RUM shooting 200 Barnes.
His reasoning was if the first shot doesn't anchor and the bear runs into the alders, it's still shooting flat enough for most when that bear runs out the other side at 350 yds.
Listened to a Podcast the other day and a guide from Alaska who has guided over 100 Grizz/Brown Bears recommends a 300RUM shooting 200 Barnes.
His reasoning was if the first shot doesn't anchor and the bear runs into the alders, it's still shooting flat enough for most when that bear runs out the other side at 350 yds.
That is a really good argument for avoiding pumpkin chuckers, but that is mighty specific choice for the 350 yard shot. Certainly not a bad one, but make it short enough and it will be mighty loud and scary when it goes off. Would give many a flinch...
Always figured my Marlin 1895 would suffice. Shoots flat enough out to 300 yards and those fat, heavy bullets don't like to stop.
-50 inches at 300 yards is flat enough?
Sorry, not close for a rifle where you might actually be trying to kill a bear moving out at 300 or more yards. I have dealt with the situation several times. If you have someone to clean up after you, okay.
Always figured my Marlin 1895 would suffice. Shoots flat enough out to 300 yards and those fat, heavy bullets don't like to stop.
-50 inches at 300 yards is flat enough?
Sorry, not close for a rifle where you might actually be trying to kill a bear moving out at 300 or more yards. I have dealt with the situation several times. If you have someone to clean up after you, okay.
Try MPBR zero for a 6" diameter target, 350g North Fork @ 2181fps and -22" at 300, not -50".
By the way, Klikitarik from here on the 24 killed a grizzly with one of my .45-70 North Fork handloads some years back. He posted a photo on the old Marlin or Levergunluvers forums, if not here), but I don't have a link. It is referenced here, though: https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...34851/re-survey-grizzly-guns#Post1734851
[Edited to add]
Think this is the bear mentioned above: [https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/973787/re-big-bear-bullet#Post973787[/url]
His description:
"No bear is impressed by how big the bore, the cartridge, or the bullet is. But even the "puny" 45-70 (at over 200 yards) gave the seven foot plus brownie I got this fall an instant stop sign when I ran a North Fork through the chest diagonally - last rib on one side, scapula on the other and everything in between. Bam-Flop."
North Fork does not think that is a good bullet for brown bears at the velocity you are running...
A sample of one is hardly persuasive. The bigger point though is the difference between a handy piece for protection and going hunting. Having someone else there backing you up should a wounded bear try to go over the mountain, very common, versus coming at you.
I think our ideas of MPBR on a brown bear are different.
This is the one I like to have when I'm in brown bear territory. After I finally got the McMillan stock, I just decided to leave it in the factory walnut stock, until I break it in the field. Then, one day I took it out of the safe to go hunting boars, I noticed the fore end was warped badly. against the left side of the barrel, even though my free-float originally gave it 1/16" clearance. So it was Mac time. Wood stocks suck (and warp). I cut the barrel on this Ruger African 9.3x62 to 21". It weighs 7 pounds 4 ounces with the irons. and 5 ounces more with a red dot. For hunting boars I use the irons or red dot. If I go for a bear, I have a Leupold 2.5x in rings, already sighted in.
North Fork does not think that is a good bullet for brown bears at the velocity you are running...
A sample of one is hardly persuasive. The bigger point though is the difference between a handy piece for protection and going hunting. Having someone else there backing you up should a wounded bear try to go over the mountain, very common, versus coming at you.
I think our ideas of MPBR on a brown bear are different.
The only North Fork comment I can find regarding the 350g FP is this:
Quote
The primary use for this bullet is in Ruger #1 rifles chambered for 45-70. The lighter weight and subsequent higher muzzle velocities, together with the lower initial opening velocities of the bullet, makes the #1 a viable 200+ yard bear, bore, and elk gun.
I assume by "bore" they mean "boar".
Ruger #1 "velocities"? Hornady lists a maximum velocity of 2200fps for a Ruger #1 and 350g bullets. My loads run 2181fps, hardly a big enough difference to merit much discussion. Mike Brady, the creator of the North Fork bullet line (since sold) pressure tested my loads and found them to be lower pressure than the PMC .45-70 loads that were available at the time for Marlin rifles.
While I have no experience with bears of any kind, I have killed a buck mule deer at 197 yards and a 6x6 bull elk at 213 yards with the 350g North Fork load. (Both yardages were lasered.) The buck was quartering away and the bullet entered through the ribs and exited the far side through the leg. The buck made a tight circle and dropped. The snow looked like someone had sloshed blood out of a five gallon bucket. In the case of the bull elk, the bullet obliterated sections of the left front leg bone and a near-side rib, shattered a far-side rib and came to rest under the hide.The bull didn't fall, but it didn't move, either. It just tipped over sideways before I could take another shot.
There is no doubt in my mind that my .45-70 and 350g North Fork would be a much better choice than many rifle/bullet combinations that have been used over the years to take grizzly/browns.
A 6" MPBR is how I zero most of my rifles. That gives a maximum 3" rise above or drop below line of sight out to the MPBR range, which turns out to be about 200 yards for my load. For defensive ranges the load starts with 3606fpe at the muzzle and still has over 3150fpe at 50 yards. At 200 yards it is still chugging along at about 1575fps with 1932fpe. At 300 is is down to 1330fps and 1390fpe and, although it won't expand as much if no bones are hit, still has the destructive and penetrating ability of a .45 flat-point, which is considerable. I've seen much slower (350g @ 1167fps) hardcast bullets penetrate 11-12 one-gallon water jugs and keep on going in repeated tests.
Now, would the .45-70 and the North Fork load be my first choice for a 300 yard first shot? No. !'d probably want my .338WM for that.
Edited to add: There are many who contend that momentum is more important than energy. My .45-70/350g North Fork load has more momentum at 200 yards than my 3033fps MV .300WM/180g TTSX load has at the muzzle and more than my 2760fps MV .338WM/225g AccuBond load has at 185 yards.
BTW, the 350g recovered from the bull elk at 213 yards (about 1540fps at impact) had expanded to .6225" and down to the top groove, which is considerably more than the North Fork gelatin tests at 1500fps. Visually it looks pretty much like what you would expect from a 2300fps impact in gelatin based on the North Fork photos at 2200 and 2400fps. https://www.northforkbullets.com/magento/products/bullets/458-350-ss.html/#
North Fork does not think that is a good bullet for brown bears at the velocity you are running...
A sample of one is hardly persuasive. The bigger point though is the difference between a handy piece for protection and going hunting. Having someone else there backing you up should a wounded bear try to go over the mountain, very common, versus coming at you.
I think our ideas of MPBR on a brown bear are different.
The only North Fork comment I can find regarding the 350g FP is this:
Quote
The primary use for this bullet is in Ruger #1 rifles chambered for 45-70. The lighter weight and subsequent higher muzzle velocities, together with the lower initial opening velocities of the bullet, makes the #1 a viable 200+ yard bear, bore, and elk gun.
I assume by "bore" they mean "boar".
Ruger #1 "velocities"? Hornady lists a maximum velocity of 2200fps for a Ruger #1 and 350g bullets. My loads run 2181fps, hardly a big enough difference to merit much discussion. Mike Brady, the creator of the North Fork bullet line (since sold) pressure tested my loads and found them to be lower pressure than the PMC .45-70 loads that were available at the time for Marlin rifles.
While I have no experience with bears of any kind, I have killed a buck mule deer at 197 yards and a 6x6 bull elk at 213 yards with the 350g North Fork load. (Both yardages were lasered.) The buck was quartering away and the bullet entered through the ribs and exited the far side through the leg. The buck made a tight circle and dropped. The snow looked like someone had sloshed blood out of a five gallon bucket. In the case of the bull elk, the bullet obliterated sections of the left front leg bone and a near-side rib, shattered a far-side rib and came to rest under the hide.The bull didn't fall, but it didn't move, either. It just tipped over sideways before I could take another shot.
There is no doubt in my mind that my .45-70 and 350g North Fork would be a much better choice than many rifle/bullet combinations that have been used over the years to take grizzly/browns.
A 6" MPBR is how I zero most of my rifles. That gives a maximum 3" rise above or drop below line of sight out to the MPBR range, which turns out to be about 200 yards for my load. For defensive ranges the load starts with 3606fpe at the muzzle and still has over 3150fpe at 50 yards. At 200 yards it is still chugging along at about 1575fps with 1932fpe. At 300 is is down to 1330fps and 1390fpe and, although it won't expand as much if no bones are hit, still has the destructive and penetrating ability of a .45 flat-point, which is considerable. I've seen much slower (350g @ 1167fps) hardcast bullets penetrate 11-12 one-gallon water jugs and keep on going in repeated tests.
Now, would the .45-70 and the North Fork load be my first choice for a 300 yard first shot? No. !'d probably want my .338WM for that.
Edited to add: There are many who contend that momentum is more important than energy. My .45-70/350g North Fork load has more momentum at 200 yards than my 3033fps MV .300WM/180g TTSX load has at the muzzle and more than my 2760fps MV .338WM/225g AccuBond load has at 185 yards.
BTW, the 350g recovered from the bull elk at 213 yards (about 1540fps at impact) had expanded to .6225" and down to the top groove, which is considerably more than the North Fork gelatin tests at 1500fps. Visually it looks pretty much like what you would expect from a 2300fps impact in gelatin based on the North Fork photos at 2200 and 2400fps. https://www.northforkbullets.com/magento/products/bullets/458-350-ss.html/#
Could not find the reference again on their website where they stated it as "to 200 yards" but it is still not a situation I would deliberately put myself in.
North Fork does not think that is a good bullet for brown bears at the velocity you are running...
A sample of one is hardly persuasive. The bigger point though is the difference between a handy piece for protection and going hunting. Having someone else there backing you up should a wounded bear try to go over the mountain, very common, versus coming at you.
I think our ideas of MPBR on a brown bear are different.
The only North Fork comment I can find regarding the 350g FP is this:
Quote
The primary use for this bullet is in Ruger #1 rifles chambered for 45-70. The lighter weight and subsequent higher muzzle velocities, together with the lower initial opening velocities of the bullet, makes the #1 a viable 200+ yard bear, bore, and elk gun.
I assume by "bore" they mean "boar".
Ruger #1 "velocities"? Hornady lists a maximum velocity of 2200fps for a Ruger #1 and 350g bullets. My loads run 2181fps, hardly a big enough difference to merit much discussion. Mike Brady, the creator of the North Fork bullet line (since sold) pressure tested my loads and found them to be lower pressure than the PMC .45-70 loads that were available at the time for Marlin rifles.
While I have no experience with bears of any kind, I have killed a buck mule deer at 197 yards and a 6x6 bull elk at 213 yards with the 350g North Fork load. (Both yardages were lasered.) The buck was quartering away and the bullet entered through the ribs and exited the far side through the leg. The buck made a tight circle and dropped. The snow looked like someone had sloshed blood out of a five gallon bucket. In the case of the bull elk, the bullet obliterated sections of the left front leg bone and a near-side rib, shattered a far-side rib and came to rest under the hide.The bull didn't fall, but it didn't move, either. It just tipped over sideways before I could take another shot.
There is no doubt in my mind that my .45-70 and 350g North Fork would be a much better choice than many rifle/bullet combinations that have been used over the years to take grizzly/browns.
A 6" MPBR is how I zero most of my rifles. That gives a maximum 3" rise above or drop below line of sight out to the MPBR range, which turns out to be about 200 yards for my load. For defensive ranges the load starts with 3606fpe at the muzzle and still has over 3150fpe at 50 yards. At 200 yards it is still chugging along at about 1575fps with 1932fpe. At 300 is is down to 1330fps and 1390fpe and, although it won't expand as much if no bones are hit, still has the destructive and penetrating ability of a .45 flat-point, which is considerable. I've seen much slower (350g @ 1167fps) hardcast bullets penetrate 11-12 one-gallon water jugs and keep on going in repeated tests.
Now, would the .45-70 and the North Fork load be my first choice for a 300 yard first shot? No. !'d probably want my .338WM for that.
Edited to add: There are many who contend that momentum is more important than energy. My .45-70/350g North Fork load has more momentum at 200 yards than my 3033fps MV .300WM/180g TTSX load has at the muzzle and more than my 2760fps MV .338WM/225g AccuBond load has at 185 yards.
BTW, the 350g recovered from the bull elk at 213 yards (about 1540fps at impact) had expanded to .6225" and down to the top groove, which is considerably more than the North Fork gelatin tests at 1500fps. Visually it looks pretty much like what you would expect from a 2300fps impact in gelatin based on the North Fork photos at 2200 and 2400fps. https://www.northforkbullets.com/magento/products/bullets/458-350-ss.html/#
Could not find the reference again on their website where they stated it as "to 200 yards" but it is still not a situation I would deliberately put myself in.
Quick Overview The primary use for this bullet is in Ruger #1 rifles chambered for 45-70. The lighter weight and subsequent higher muzzle velocities, together with the lower initial opening velocities of the bullet, makes the #1 a viable 200+ yard bear, bore, and elk gun. The bullet will withstand anything that a 458 Winchester Magnum can dish out, but the sectional density may be a little low for initiating up close and not so friendly confrontations with a half-ton of brown bear. That situation would be better served with the 458-400 grain bullet.
S.D. is "only" .238 for the 350g while the 400g they recommend is .272. Given the bonded front core and mono rear construction and what I've seen the.458"/ 350g (and 7mm and .30 North Fork bullets, too, for that matter) do on game, S.D. is not the concern it might be with a standard cup and core bullet - especially those with a lighter weight and a smaller diameter. To me it is very much the same as using a TTSX or other mono compared to a cup and core bullet.
If I was shooting a .458 Win Mag or similar the 400g bullet* might* be more appropriate, but 2018fps (maximum velocity listed for Speer 400g) and at the 300 yards you are concerned about it would have lower velocity and energy and 29" drop vs 22" for the 350g. The 400g load would also have significantly more recoil, extending recovery time. The advantage in momentum at 300 yards would go to the 400g but only by a minuscule 2%. The 350g load has proven itself at the range, in water jugs and on live game. If I ever head out to hunt grizzly/browns I'll take a proven load, not one with which I have no or only range experience.
While water jug tests are not the same as flesh and blood and bone, neither are gelatin tests - and water is more consistent than improperly prepared or calibrated gelatin. In the water jug tests, the .45-70/350g North Fork compared very well to other bullets I've tested:
If headed to AK to hung big bears I would not buy a rifle specific to that purpose. That leaves me with what I have or may have at the time. If headed out tomorrow, the .45-70 or .338WM would be my choice and the final decision might well come down to the weather forecast - the .338 is stainless with a boat paddle stock.
I have a Winchester 1895 in 30-03 Winchester that belonged to Al Taylor of Lower Tonsina. He used it almost exclusively in 60 years of living between the Copper and Tonsina Rivers and running a fish trap down there for probably 40 years. He would kill 3-5 brown bears/Grizzlies per year with this rifle. He would use store bought Winchester 180 grain silver tips. It is worn down to probably 65% NRA condition and I probably will not hunt with it but I might send it in to Turnbull to get it up to spec but I will not change the stock. He would kill them up close when they were a nuisance and then he would nonchalantly say that another bear took a swim. He might not register to anyone on this forum but he was always larger than life to me growing up.
I really like my Whitworth Express 458 Win Mag. I think that is probably the gun I would take into the alders with intentions for a big bear.
Well I think that guide makes good sense. I chose a rifle with the 35 bore that hurtles big medicine at 350 yards. I was looking at the .338 Winchester with Barnes but am just as happy my 358 Norma Magnum . 200 grain screamers through 250 grain thumpers. Rifle is a flat shooting Mauser custom 98. But that is my big thumper, It can easily reach out to 350 yards and then put a big hole in whatever it hits.
Out of my current rifles I’d be happy hunting with my HVA in 30-06 with the heaviest partitions it shot well. I’d like to use my 45/70 Marlin as well but would feel limited on the range. It would be my choice for a stopping rifle though with heavy hard cast lead. Fixed 2x or ghost rings.
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w/envy. ![[Linked Image]](https://i.postimg.cc/Fs94N0YX/IMG-2404.jpg)
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