For a lightweight (-6 1/2lbs) hunting rifle, 10 shots, 100 yds.
Obviously factory vs custom rifle would possibly be different, same for handloads vs factory, caliber, optics etc...

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/13481748/28

A few data points ... popcorn and all.

It's obviously not a BR gun, or a precision rifle , so I'm wondering why you'd want a 10 shot group in the first place as you'll likely never (neither have I) shoot 10 shots in a relatively short period. I could see shooting a couple of shots every day for 5 days at the same target to see what's happening, but otherwise I'd skip it entirely and look at a max 5 shot group MAYBE. If you're still intent on the 10 shot group I'd guess 1.5-2" on a good day with a skinny barrel.

Flame away boys.........

^^^This^^^

.338 Winchester or .223?

All good points. You're exactly right. I guess my only reason for a fast 10 shot group was seeing what the barrel would do cold bore shot, through too hot to touch. Shot a
1 1/4" group. I was over all happy with it out of Kimber Montana. Purely a hunting gun, so without a doubt, all that matters is that first cold bore shot hitting same POI every time.

.308 based chamberings. .260/7-08/.308

A writer friend finally broke down and bought a New Ultra Light Arms a few years ago, after putting THREE DOZEN shots into a little more than an inch, firing as fast he could aim correctly, from a rifle NULA sent him for a review. Can't remember for sure whether he bought the actual rifle used in the tests, but he may have.

Though my Montana 223 with a hawk hill barrel shot this yesterday... First group 10 rds of 55vmax in one hole, 2nd group 10rds of 62gr TSX shot all 20 with no cool down period between shots/groups. Barrel was HOT and mirage made it tough to shoot the last three.

My CLR in 30-06 that Melvin worked on will stack them even when the barrel is scorching. The most consistent rifle I own, and why i'm seriously thinking about full length bedding my Montana 7-08. What's your take MD?

Nice shootin' jack.

Thanks, I built it to shoot the 75Amax, but it hated them. I just finished loading a bunch of 77gr Sierra TMK's to try. Hoping they'll shine in it.
Get hung up on groups like that and lose sight of what's really needed for deer sized, and up, game.

Damn!!!

PM me the max load,

Please and thank you.

I’m sitting on a pile of those.

I have benchmark, TAC, Varget and Shooters World Tactical I large quanties.

And WSR and CCI small rifle and Rem 6-1/2 and 7-1/2 primers by the thousands.

25.5gr Varget, 55gr V-max touching lands at 2.275 C O.A.L.
CCI 400, R-P Brass. The Fiocchi 50gr V-max loads are almost as good. Good enough I wonder why I waste my time reloading for that particular round in this rifle.

Hawk Hill has it together. A lot to be said for an accurate .223. Makes a mediocre shooter look good. It likes the forend held lightly. My Hart barreled Montana 7-08AI will cut the group's in Half shooting free recoil though.

In full disclosure, that group was shot with an old Leupold vari-x II 3-9x. I'm sure with a decent scope I could cut that group in half😁

It was probably gloss. How about some rifle pics!

Too funny...I put an old gloss scope with friction adjustments on an Encore 209x50;for my son today. Shot 1 1/2" groups with BH209, CCI mag primers, 240gr XTP's and harvester crush rib Sabot's...
Pic of the twins, .223 on the right.

I splurged on a vari-X III 2.5-8 for the 7-08AI!

Yes sir ....nice shooting!.....Hb

Talley LW’s too... Oh the horror!








P.S. I have a Leupold on my muzzle loader.

I, and others have tried to explain 10 round groups multiple times. If you really want to know why 10+ round groups are important for any rifle where accuracy matters-


Can you accept as a starting point that it has nothing to do with how many shots you fire at an animal?

Living dangerously. I have talley lwts on my primary hunting rifle. Need to get some dye for some periodic ndt testing. Once every 2 months? (grin)

Well said form. A lot of these jackwagons dont get it. It doesn't matter how many times you explain it to them. A good rule of thumb i like to use for any rifle regarding number of shots fired goes like this:

3 shot groups: sub moa
5 shot groups moa
10 shot groups: 1.5 moa

However, the more shots on target will tell you more about the rifle, shooter, load and true zero.

Johnny,

As you mention, nothing says the shots have to be fired as quick as you can accurately get them out of the barrel. In the interest of babying the throat on my rigs, I typically fire three or five rounds at the same POA until I have ten shots. I let the barrel cool after each 3 or five rounds. The end result is ten rounds at the same POA, which is a much better statistical indicator of how well the rifle does than a three shot group.

That being said, as far as group size goes, I’ve not found it to vary significantly whether I let the barrel cool or not, provided I’ve got a mechanically sound rig to begin with.

Give it a try. It’s a real eye opener.

John

I agree with you John, and I agree with Formid as well. It's not an ego or bragging thing, but the number of medium/big game animals I've killed over the past 46 years is a few hundred, and I've never fired a 10 shot string at one sitting in my life. This is likely the source of my hard headedness I guess. I've missed a few animals like everyone else, but don't make a habit of it and certainly couldn't blame the rifle. For the record, when proving up a load worthy of taking it to the field, I do fire a few 5 shot groups at 2-300 yards, letting barrel cool in between. I guess I can chalk it up to good rifles, good mounts, and scopes that don't wiggle much. If I were a precision long range guy I'd probably feel a little different, and I don't like super lightweights or skinny barrels either, for my use. I also believe shooter error, reloading error, factory ammo error, wind (even at 100 yds) etc can factor in to variations in larger gruops as well.

The primary reason so many big game hunters don't care about 10-shot groups (or even 5-shot groups) is that by definition big game animals are relatively large targets. Even a pronghorn (one of the smaller big game animals in North America) has a vital area the size of a volleyball--about eight inches in diameter. Three-shot groups of even 1.5 inches at 100 yards are plenty small enough for hitting a volleyball at 300 yards, which is about as far as most hunters have any business shooting at pronghorns.

At longer ranges more precision can be required, depending on the size of the animal. But I normally shoot 10-shot groups when testing varmint rifles, especially those used on small burrowing rodents--and then I do shoot 10 rounds as fast as the rifle can be precisely aimed, because barrels can get warm on prairie dog towns, even if we bring two or more rifles to swap them out. I want to know if the barrel will wander as it warms up--and as a general rule want 10 rounds under an inch, and the more under an inch the better. Even a big prairie dog is a pretty small target, especially when you often don't get to shoot at the entire dog.

If your rifle doesn't put them ALL into an inch at 100, you're going to miss some PD's at 200 yards due to the rifle, not the wind or your hold. If you want to hit them consistently at 300, the rifle needs to put them ALL into less than 3/4" at 100. If you want to hit consistently beyond 300, even more accuracy is required--unless, of course, you're one of those PD shooters who only counts the hits, and doesn't care whether they expend several shots (or several dozen) to accidentally hit one at longer ranges.

Believe it or not, there are quite a few PD shooters like that, including a good friend of mine--who has no idea of the level of accuracy of his rifles, since he doesn't believe in shooting groups. I strongly suspect he thinks group-shooting wastes barrel life--but shooting several rounds at a prairie dog doesn't--as long as he eventually hits the dog.

From another conversation:

10-4 on the varmint rifles JB. Makes perfect sense.

Some great shooting there Jackmountain!

A good trick I've seen, but not done as yet, is to shoot a 3-shot group, put another target precisely over the first, then shoot another. Rinse, repeat, until you're satisfied. The bottom one tells the truth.

The top target when you get done is for your wallet (or maybe not!).

Straight out of the Social Media Sniper’s Handbook.

Great shooting rifle, not necessarily the shooter!
That rifle started as a nightmare. 4" groups, light firing pin strikes, FTF's, ejection issues, feeding issues....
Worked through everything with the help of a LOT of knowledgeable guys on this forum, except the accuracy.
Kimber took it, sent it back with a 3 shot 1 1/2" group shot with 40gr nosler's and said nothing wrong with it. Spent a year at a 'smith that I won't get into...
But in the end I couldn't be happier with it and It'll never be sold.

Chapter two is "it shoots in the .2's regularly, as long as I do my part"

My original question was based on groups I shot this weekend with the 7-08AI in the picture. It's been a little more finicky... definitely prefers free recoil. Groups of 10 @ 1" best to maybe 1 1/2" at worst. Hunting rifle, so plenty good, but wondered if I was settling too easy and should be demanding more from it. Really thinking about full length bedding it just to see.

10 shots in 1.5” is a pretty good goal for a hunting rifle in my opinion.

My main rifles will do that, when they don’t it’s on me and not them.

Personally, for a lightweight like that, I don’t think I’d be chasing any more accuracy if it consistently puts them 1”-1.5”.

I always ask myself, would I see or benefit from any more accuracy from a field position?

I’ve begun 20 shoot groups. Cuz I’z better than you stupid fûckers.

😂😂😂🤣🤣😂😂😂 maa put a really nice shootn rust in the middle of the coffee table for me so I can rest whileS me’s shootn. (Little Popeye at the end).

Jack good shooting!

No Hawaiian shirts were harmed during that range session Fred

I love that shirt. It’s going deer hunting in November.

Like I think you’ve already said, Melvin would full length bed it. I’d be curious to see how this panned out as well.

When free recoiling are you resting under the belly near the balance point? One would think the harmonics of the barrel and fore-end would be least constrained in such a position. The recoil event would also be free of the effect of the wrist and butt stock flexing and twisting as when braced against a shooter.

Shooting "1" 10 shot groups with a Kimber montana", I'd leave it alone and be happy with it. If we were talking Tikka, I'd think something was wrong with it and look in to the bedding better..... Sometimes you have to leave well enough alone.

Read several times now that it works on Melvin's rifles only due to the rigidity of his stocks? Does the forend on a Montana have more flex than one of Melvin's?

I don’t know if Melvin’s stocks are stiffer than everybody else’s. Even if they aren’t, they may have been 30 years ago. The statement certainly sounds like something I’ve heard Melvin say. I’ve got a Nula and a Kimber 84 stock, among others. If it’s important I can pull them and see if there’s a straight forward way to quantify their structural qualities, but I think you’ve got examples of both as well.

I do, but no real idea how to test rigidity/flex in forends. Assume I could clamp the butt and hang weight off the forend and measure deflection. Probably just full length bed and shoot it. If accuracy is negatively affected I can remove bedding and free float. Probably better off loading 50 rds of the 120gr B.T. load that shoots MOA and go hunting....

^^^This, unless the goal is science.

I’m not too keen on spending my time pursuing these questions, but would happily read along if you do.


;-)