A friend just showed me a Facebook post of a 84 lb coyote killed in SW Michigan. Pics are of a guy holding a huge dog and a pic of a digital scale reading 84 lbs. I have killed perhaps 6 coyotes in my life and they were all 30-40 lbs. Without pics I would have certainly called BS and even with pics, I 'm skeptical. Supposedly the hunter is talking with DNR and or some biologists.

SW Michigan is an area with a really high deer density and lots of ag land, so there is certainly lots of nutrition. Also, not that many coyote hunters. For those of you that actively hunt coyotes, does this seem even remotely possible?

405wcf

If it's a true coyote----No.

I’d have not told anyone I shot an 85lb “coyote”.
Sounds a bit too much like a wolf.

No wolves in SW Michigan. Certainly does not line up with my assumptions about coyotes.

There were no wolves in Kansas, until some coyote hunters killed one.

Just sayin'

I caught a 120 pound beaver once. Me and a couple of my friends were in a bar and I......wait a minute......never mind

I think it’s pretty well settled that the northeastern “coyotes” aren’t really “true coyotes.”

Prior to the days of widely accessible dna research resources there was all kinds of speculation and absolute nonsense circulating around about them, at least where I am from in northern New York (Canadian border northern.)
I think today it’s prettier well accepted that there is generally (individuals will vary) dna showing coyote, large proportion of grey wolf, and traces of domestic dog. ( My wife’s cousin recently sent a trail cam video from out back of his place showing a blue healer running with what appears like a female coyote in heat.)

For years I was involved in trapping coyotes up there and ran them with hounds as our primary winter recreation. I’ve seen all colors and sizes, from the classic silver and brindles to fox red and coal black. The biggest I’ve ever seen anyone actually weigh on a scale was 72 pounds. One year I trapped a couple, a few days apart, that I believed were every bit as much work to lift up on the back of the quad as an 80 pound bag of horse feed.

The words “always” and “never” are two words I don’t use discussing wild animals.

85 pound coyote, no way.

One of the biggest coyotes I've ever seen was in Michigan, but he was nowhere near 84lbs.

I shot one once that may have been 50 pounds or a tad over, but I did not weigh him, biggest one I've actually weighed was 42 lbs.

What he said...

Evnin fellows, I'm in central Ontario & we used to run hounds on coyotes every day in the winter. Buddy had about 20 hounds plus or minus. We're on the edge of timber wolf territory & feb, march when there breeding we would get into one or two of them (best pile the dogs on him if you realize it's a timber) they can kill a lot of hounds quick!!! Now I don't think the bioligests will admit they will inter bread, BULL CHIT. Timbers are just like you & I were in our teens at a new watering hole. We usually averaged 40 to 50 dogs a year, average wt. 35 to 45 lbs. Got the odd one over 50 & they were what we call brush wolves ( timber x coyote) Some end up looking awful dog like, ( house dogs cross yote). We got one south of us once that went 80lbs on a farm grain scale, more timber than yote. It & coyotes were ripping wire mesh off of peasant cages & steeling dinner. Guy called us to thin them out but we never went back because of tree huggers. Had permission for 4sq miles & still ran into trouble. Most yotes around here don't have dew claws. I believe they get tore off on brush, or crusty snow when there young?. Used to run into coyotes from another area other than our local location & it almost always ended badly. I guess not knowing the area once they get pressure put on them I think they just bail out & head for home turf. Have caught hounds 20 miles away, not fun & a long day & sometimes in the middle of no were on a snowmobile with too many dogs to ride out, did I mention of it ending bad & late. One dog on sled two or more behind on leads make it hard to even back track. Tell me why multiple hounds never go on the same side of a tree??? 🐾👣🇨🇦

Wolf-cross, or coydog.

its on Facebook and it does not look at all like any kind of cross breed. It looks like 100% coyote.

there a video too and it LOOKS like 100% coyote.....Digital scale.....etc. IDK how to get the video

I think that if the hunter is talking with the DNR, they will have a warden and a citation book ready for having shot a gray wolf. Wolves aren't supposed to be in central Wisconsin either, but they are. Same with cougars. They weren't here either until they were. SSS not Facebook. Reminds me of the lady that shot the Siberian Husky and mistook it for a wolf.

Wolf looking for a new territory? I recommend the 3S method of disposal. Pappy may be right as well, some king of cross. I have never seen or heard of a coyote much bigger than 50 lbs.

idk what it is but, I would have shot it. Wouldn't have felt bad either. need to see its face better but like I said, it looks like a coyote to me. Never seen a coyote over 50lbs in my neck of the woods. 40-45lbs is huge in my eyes.

Looks pretty wolfy to me, the body anyway.

its like winning the lottery....some wins you just don't tell folks about hahahaha

Hope the DNR does some dna testing.
It doesn’t look like the typical coy dog, the head looks a little “wolfie” and that body is pretty blocky for a coyote.

Big and damn well should have kept his mouth shut.. mb

Afternoon, I'm not any kind of a professional but the nose on it looks wolf like. May just be frozen in that shape??? Embarasing story for Canada, Ontario specificly. An older couple near Algonquin park were watching some coyote pack for some time, claimed it was a new breed. Got on the internet & posted pics of the pack, said the ministry should protect them. They got all kinds of Bambi kissing tree hungers to back them up So the ministry who should have investigated them with a bioligest DIDNT !!! But they went ahead & protected theme as a new breed of large coyotes with reddish hair. Wow a new species??? Well they got requests from Sweden, Germany, Holland, & other countries to see the research they had put into this. Well the ministry had not put ANY research into it, SURPRISE. Well with egg on there face they hired a biologist (A real one not one with coaching) he told them before starting it was just another brush wolf,but!! After he was done, that's what he found. I bet you think they retracted the protection, NO went right on saying they were a special species!!! Amazing what pressure from the pet me pet me crowd can do. Now there also saying there are no timber wolves south of the severn river only coyotes, I think they should have told the wolves & coyotes. Now we need a special licence to hunt the timbers. Why is everything the government does is just an embarrassment & a big chit show??? Have you heard about the spring bear hunt BULL CHIT. GWPGUY. 🐾👣🇨🇦

Yep thats 100% all wolf, feet, legs, head, muzzle all wolf.

Mich, wisc. not the big of a state and the wolves live in northern have not that hard for one to travel south. Minn. has wolves as well and we get one from time to time that comes to southern part of state along with moose and Blackbears and yes cougars. Still have a pair of cougars hanging around and the bears as well, leave them alone they leave everyone else alone no big whoop.

Hell, I live in Missouri and there have been three wolves killed here that were traced by DNA, and in the case of one that had a radio collar, back to the Great Lakes wolf populations. We have even had a couple of moose wander down here from up north. That critter in the picture isn't a coyote.

84# Coyote is a little hard for me to believe, I kill Coyotes almost every day this time of year 35-38# Coyote is big here in S. Texas, I think Wolf or someones dog maybe?? Rio7

405wcf;
Good afternoon to you sir, I hope you're keeping well, warm and dry in this latest blast and you're all well.

Thanks for an interesting thread, wolves and coyotes are something that I've been trying to learn for much of my life and have been attempting to shoot them for more than 40 years of it. I've been successful often enough with coyotes, finally got an Okanagan wolf to howl back to me this year and shot over top of one in Saskatchewan many years back.

Forgive me for repeating this story if you've read it from me previously, but it's instructive of how some wolves will go wherever it is they might have a mind to go.

Years back before the wolves had moved into our area, there was not season for them unless the hunter was First Nations.

So it was that a local FN chap brought a decent sized wolf into the taxidermy shop that was just down the road from us, owned by a father and son team that our family was very close friends with.

The taxidermists related to us that this wolf had both an ear tag and a collar, both of which they removed of course before peeling it.

They suggested to the FN hunter that he take them into the local Ministry of Forests, Lands and Natural Resources or whatever the Wildlife folks were going by back then, which he did.

When he took it in, the helpful bios tracked both the collar and ear tag and found that this wolf had been caught and ear tagged on the other side of the several mountain ranges in Alberta, then was one of the wolves transplanted into Yellowstone where it was collared.

We're about 700 miles from Yellowstone more or less, perhaps a wee bit less as the crow flies or the wolf trots, not sure.

Obligatory wolf track photo from this past fall, just a bit northeast of where I sit today.



That folder is a snitch over 8½".

In a couple other conversations with bios from the Ministry over the years, they've said wolves will commonly travel huge circuits quite often or at least our BC ones to.

While I'm far from an expert on anything, the biggest coyote I've ever shot here I tried to weigh on a fish scale that went to 25lb and it surpassed that easily. If I was to guess, I'd think it would've been high 30's, but that's guessing for sure.

Again still guessing, that photo looks more wolf than coyote to me.

I'd be curious to learn what it actually is, so if anyone finds out and posts it, thanks in advance.

All the best.

Dwayne

Agreed. The photos look like a mix at best, not pure coyote. I hope DNA proves me wrong for the sake of the hunter.

Osky

Osky;
Good evening to you sir, I hope the weekend behaved and you're all warm, well and dry tonight.

As a Canuck, I'm not exactly sure what would happen if someone shot a cross up here and it was out of the wolf season, which we do have, but is actually 15 days shorter than the coyote season I see...

We can shoot 3 wolves a year and NBL on coyotes, season for them is Sept 01st to June 30th and wolves stop on June 15th for whatever reason.

Is it likely if it's a hybrid he'll be charged?

If the state DNR say they don't exist and a hunter takes one as an honest mistake, am I correct in guessing it'll be up to the individual CO and then prosecutor to decide?

There was a bit of a dance up here in Manitoba years back when a US hunter shot the first recorded Grizzly and Polar bear cross, but as far as I know neither he nor the Inuit guide got any grief over it.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts you care to share. Just curious is all.

All the best.

Dwayne

Dwayne,
I hope you had a fine weekend!

I agree with your assessment of the photo, it sure looks like a wolf to me (note that I have no experience with wolves). The location is the puzzling part. This is closer to Chicago than Michigan's UP!

The idea of a coyote/wolf cross is particular interesting for SW Michigan due to geography. There has been no documented evidence of wolves in the lower peninsula in modern times. Since Michigan's lower peninsula is surrounded by the Great Lakes, to come in by land, they would have to come in through Indiana or Ohio (where there are no wolves).

In the rare year when the lakes completely freeze over, it could be possible for one to make it if from the UP or Ontario. If it did, it then have to make it's way to an area that is densely
populated with people (by wolf standards) and breed with a coyote.

The question some posters brought up regarding the legality of shooting a wolf is also interesting. This was supposedly taken within a couple of hours of where I live. If I saw a big coyote in my field, I would shoot him and not worry because there are no wolves in the LP of Michigan....but what if? Would I be charged for not being able to tell the difference between a wolf and coyote when there are no wolves in the LP?

Interesting questions.

405wcf

There were no charges filed on the shooters of the wolves killed here in Missouri.

I live in SW Michigan, and there are no wolves here.

Not anymore

I’m no great slayer of coyotes, but I’ve seen a couple pretty monster coyotes. One was solid black and huge up at Catoosa. I knew the nipple was wore out on my Knight, and the cap fell off. Click. Coyote got gone.

I let a big red one mouse around about 60 yards from me one morning. It was muzzleloader opener and I was on a pretty big deer, so I let him walk (never saw the deer, of course).

Those were the two biggest I had ever seen, and they were nowhere near 80 lbs. I’ve shot a few that (GUESSING) broke 40, the two mentioned above might have been 60, but 80lbs is a BIG dog, much less a coyote.

There’s a reason F&G agencies tell you it’s illegal to shoot something that they just told you doesn’t exist……..

Looking at a map of the Great Lakes, there looks like a pretty wide swath of land between Lake Huron and Lake Erie from the southern part of Canada into SE MI.

Its real simple if DNR says they don't exist is for reason. they want to keep people away from harassing them so no one gets hurt or animal has to be put down cause some dumb ass wanted to get pictures or see how close he could get. just check out the stories on Yellowstone park, just more dumb asses running around.

Its pretty well established at this point that as coyotes expanded range eastward they bred (or probably more accurately REbred) with "eastern" Timber wolves.

All of the canids diverged from a common ancestor at some point. That fact that they are still mixing it up shouldnt come as a surprise.

A 40 lb coyote is considered pretty big in TX or OK , but it is commonplace in NJ PA NY.

Some a function of Bergman's rule, some from more recent wolf hybridization.

Kinda like the wolverine, that was living in northern Michigan for 3-4 years. Coyote hunters running dogs treed it. Took photos of it! ,I can't rember where it was but a couple of guys kept tabs on it for several years. Wood and Waters mag had a big spread about.

Kilt a few yotes. No official weights recorded but the big ones in the 40 lb range tops. Even kilt a yote once with a white/silver tipped tail instead of the typical dark brown blackish color.

Around here, wolves hate yotes and will run them down and kill'em.... But that's not to say some 'k-9 intercourse' could also go on.

With the precious grizzly recovery area thats claiming more of the west and neighborhoods within, now there has been a jet black grizzlly getting caught in bear trap after killing livestock... one even got itself shot mistaken for a black bear too. Of course, its a federal deal so everything is top secret. And when we get news or updates its already year or more past and not fully told... Like DNA and such.

But anyhow, 80 some pound yote' makes me wonder if something elts is going on like wolf or coydog stuffs....

I like the DNA thingy going around. Most of my dogs are DNA tested for breeding purposes but here is the deal as far as my dogs or other wild animals go. They cannot do a DNA test on a certain animal and come up with any hard facts other than say yep its a dog or yep its a coyote. Reason being is they have a very limited data base which means they need something to compare it to. if they don't have it then they cant say what else is in a animal for DNA testing. They need to have a large library of DNR from many, many animals and hey they just don't have it. At moment only thing they have a strong data base (samples) for is for cattle and horses and maybe some of the wolf stock in upper midwest. So DNA all you want it won't prove anything. Since my dogs have been DNA tested they had samples of my dogs and when I had a accidental breeding the DNA tests prove which male dog of mine bred the female and I could register the puppies under there names. With out any samples they don't know who is who other than yep they both dogs. LOL Lady down south breeds coydogs think you can buy pups from her, dogs with the body or looks of a coyote with long hair different colors, you can tell the diff. with them. animal in the picture is a wolf, all wolf.

South Texas. This is a whole other thing. They get a lot bigger than the little puppies you guys have down there.

white tip coyotes? its all genetic, some areas have them some don't. Same for a red fox, some have white tip and some don't, nothing special about either one. small traces of dog likeness in a coyote yep, most likely a one time cross, the bitch was desperate to have pups. Had pocket of coyotes in given area, had the face markings of a elkhound, alot of black and on some the black would go down the front of the front legs. still mostly coyote. The size never changed just the color. Usually with genetics the dog with stronger DNA genetics will overrule or show up more in a cross between two dogs and a litter can go both ways, some look like father and some take on the mothers' traits. Also take in consideration of a coyotes age older some get along with good food source bigger they can get can also get a fluke in a litter with one coyote being big and all the others avr. or some smaller, males tend to be little, bigger as well but depends on genetics. A pup that hogs the teat and pushes others away has a chance of getting bigger as he has a early start. My area its known from research the majority of the coyotes don't live past there third year so yeah they don't have a chance to get little, bigger. When coyotes first moved into my area back around 1985 no one new much about them or how to hunt them as they were pretty smart i guess I could say or hunters just uneducated. My coyotes avr. in weight from 32 to 38 pound avr. with a few older coyotes tipping scall at 43 and once in great while come across a 45 pounder but very rare, they just don't live long. When coyotes moved in back in 1985 they lived for roughly five years then started to get killed off. I killed two of them and a friend killed another, both of mine was the biggest as they were both males my buddy got the female. I still hold the record in my area for biggest coyotes to date. I love the big fish stories. LOL

Good evening Dwayne.
In northern MN the past 60 years I never had an issue distinguishing between wolves and coyotes. The hunting of wolves ended when I was a young boy as I recall. It opened again for a couple years maybe 12 years ago, limited harvest, draw for licenses only. Two guys staying with me brought wolves in. One was an 87lb female, I helped skin it and it sure looked like the one pictured here.

I cannot honestly answer your question of an accidentally shot wolf as I do not recall reading about such a case nor actually knew of anyone involved in that. Maybe others can correct me here?

I have been along on coyote kills when in Saskatchewan tho not allowed to gun them as a nonresident. I’ve shot many from Montana on down to the Rio grande and the states in between. Never kept track on the number, wish I had. In Montana I took the ranchers boy along one morning and he shot one that scaled at 48lbs. Far and away the biggest I’ve ever actually seen. Beat any of the many I’ve shot by 12-15 lbs?
There sure may be bigger out there but I still feel that one was a true freak of nature.

You take care Wayne.

Osky

Most places with coyotes have or will have Coydogs. The throw out dogs pack up, if they can, and a female in season is not so particular. We had two solid blacks show up, then only one, but in the past 6 months have not seen the black again. I missed getting a shot on it, just once, as it was moving fast through the big trees. You rarely see them here, in any clearing at all.

About 35#s is fairly average weight in these parts as they are usually pretty thin.

I had a Red Wolf show up in my back 40 one morning while I was drinking my 1st cup of coffee, about day break. A gift from the retarded Dept of the Inferior, 30 years ago. They released Red Wolves into the SE without telling anyone. You can look it up on the net, released Red Wolves across the North Florida border. The dumb butts thought Wolves would stay where they put them. Only the Government dunder heads would be that stupid. Have not seen that wolf since, but saw three dead on 393 hit by cars, over 10 years.

I've killed more coyotes than mange, and I've never seen a song dog top 35 or 40 pounds.

Man just think, if a coyote was an 80 pound animal with their numbers, you could kiss big game hunting goodbye.

I'd call em with a bigger gun than a 243 win lol.

84 lb's? Coydog or Coywolf.

Our yotes run big. Over the last 20 years, me and buddies have killed 3 legit 50+ pounders. Biggest was 53 pounds. AVERAGE adult winter coyote is 34 -42 pounds. 84 doesn't even seem like a remote possibility.

I've read where coyotes and wolves are cross breeding and that many coyotes will have a good percentage wolf DNA.

Yep, white tip. Only one out of lots of yotes, It was a bigger male and one that did not get weighed also. Just figgered it an old and gray hair thing....

Old friend of the family who trapped, shot, killed coyotes in heavy droves even after the bounty ended on them had told me about the white tip..... just took me many years and many yotes.

I’m in east central Texas. Most coyotes here, that I’ve collected, weighed 25 or 30 pounds. But some years ago I shot a big one, and he did reverse ground shrinkage. Closer I got, the bigger he looked. He was an even 50 pounds. So, 84# sounds like more than a plain old coyote.

They all look so different, but Never seen one over 50.
The triple was a group of three that came in all together.

If DF&G says there're no wolves, and someone shoots one... how is anyone liable? The 'experts' said they don't exist...

that`s nothing a good friend caught a smelly 250 lb`er greasy haired beaver at a old bar in northern Canada ..... whoops wrong kind ... but he sure had a nasty hangover too next day..... its a true funny story even today but not to him ......

Quote; If DF&G says there're no wolves, and someone shoots one... how is anyone liable? Unquote: Real simple state laws says no season or are protected. Only reason DNR says they don't exist is to keep the dumb asses away from bothering them. Take Yellowstone Park for example. Couple of farmers not far from me cornered a cougar in driveway pipe, they placed some stuff at one end to keep cat in pipe while other guy ran home and got his gun, lights and what have you. They shot the cat then took it to the bar to show it off and a few other places in town. Went home for the night with cat in back of the pickup truck. That mourning DNR shows up at the farm to check it out. First off cougars are protected, and there is no season period. Tickets issued for not reporting the kill, ticket issued for illegal kill of protected animal. Ticket issued for harassing a protected animal, ticket issued for shooting animal in a den, ticket issued for illegal use of lights. All equipment taken by DNR including the new pickup truck. All equipment including truck kept by the state plus heavy fines for both. Loss of hunting privileges for 3 years plus animal was taken on Stateline which means double the fines. Ask yourself is it worth it?

I have shot close to a dozen coyotes in the Adirondack mountains. I never weighed them, but I had a few of them that would definitely in the 60 to 70 pound range. I’ve had dogs my whole life 30 pounds to 85 pounds. North eastern coyotes have Timberwolf in their DNA, have read that and also a conservation officer told me the same. I never should’ve sold that piece of property up there, coyote, rich environment. They decimated the deer population. I personally seen them take deer down, you probably wouldn’t believe me amazing to see.

That is no coyote.

https://wbxxfm.com/michigan-residents-debate-coyote-wolf-shot-marshall/

i think your lying a little probably closer 200 lbs. with dark greasy hair and didn`t smell that good either ? my good friend had a snapper like that one nite up in Northern Canada and to this day he wishes that subject would never come up ,but it is still funny.

> the biggest Coyote we ever shot was 41 lbs was a big male in Northern Minnesota calling. > i just seen the picture that`s a gray wolf he might be in trouble ?

The existence of an 84 pound coyote, belongs right in the same discussion as a bigfoot and black mountain lion........they don't exist, period.

Mmmmm, I would say maybe 140 at the most, definitely not 200

Thanks for posting that link with the pick.

X2 That is no coyote.

Same ol Michigan DNR though. The DNR claimed for decades that there was no proof of Cougars in MI. Even after one was hit by a truck the DNR claimed that it wasn’t proof. That it could have been an escaped exotic pet. It wasn’t until trail cams got big and they started popping up in too many pics to deny it that the DNR publicly acknowledged cats in the state.

here in Minnesota we got lots of wolves and coyotes ,just look at that picture that head is huge its a wolf . here in Minnesota our Mn. DNR has forever said we have no cougars but 60 years ago my grandpa`s milk cows got claw marks on them from a big cat , uncle seen the cougar that night and neighbor shot that cougar and got the cougar mounted,this dead cougar was in all the local papers too. so ya here in Minnesota we got cougars too , matter a fact i live on the land where the big cat traveled.

405WCF: I don't know - never seen or shot one anywhere near that weight.
Local guy brought in two Wolves last week that he kill't on different days - they weighed 76 and 91 pounds respectively.
Again I am NOT saying an 84 pound Coyote is "impossible" but I have seen a LOT of Coyotes in my 50+ years of Hunting them, in several western states, and never seen one that weighed anywhere near 84 pounds.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Why do we need a three letter agency to tell us what we already know to be fact? Go to the people for the facts not the government.

It’s not about facts. If the DNR acknowledges the presence of a species, they will feel obligated to develop a management plan. It may be better for all concerned if they officially deny it.

The coyote claimed to be shot in Michigan is not a pure coyote !
I have trapped and snared coyotes in the UP for many years and have caught some around 50 pounds....have also caught a couple wolves every year for the past 15 years only one was questionable because it looked like a small wolf but had much smaller feet then a wolf but was to large to be a pure coyote....

When I lived in NEPA, we had coyotes around in every color from almost white to black , lots of Coyote colored ones also. But all sorts of colors and 40-50 lbs was not uncommon , had one huge one in my yard that look just like a german sheperd . Wife got a picture of it while I was at work . Judging by by photo he was big . His back was higher than second ridge on 55 gal burn barrel. they were always in groups of 4-6 , and behave more wolf like than I thought they should. PA Game commission swore they are just coyotes......

We went through the same song and dance here in NYS. DEC claimed absolutely no wolves and then after one was shot that it was probably a pet that was released. Then science and DNA proved the lie. No coyote gets to 80#. It is a wolf.

https://www.adirondackalmanack.com/2023/03/nysdec-now-admits-cooperstown-wolf-was-a-wild-wolf.html

In college hiked a lot in Northern New England. Typical in those days ( early to mid 70s), you'd get plenty of people who would rent property up north for the summer to take the wife and kids up to. They would stop by the pound and get a dog for the kids... at the end of the summer they'd take it out and dump it, and tell the kids it ran away.

These dogs would end up running into wolf packs or coyotes. The animal would be either eaten or would fight off the others well enough, it would get absorbed into the pack. The locals called them coy dogs. They'd cross with the wolves or coyotes.
When hiking trails in Northern New England, we'd run into them here and there. The problem with these coy dogs? The wild animals.. coyotes or wolves would run away, having fear of mankind.... these coy dogs had been around people so did not have a fear of them, but they picked up the wildness running with these coyotes and wolves.

Coy dogs were a real problem. Don't know if that is still the situation back there now.. but it sure was back in the 70s...
Ran into a lot of that scenario in the back country in northern Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont. Never hiked being totally unarmed.

Fairly serious yote hunter as was my brother(since past on). At age of 85 , brother 73 between us I imagine we killed over 1k coyotes. Largest we ever killed, here in Wyoming weighed 48 lbs, not sure that one didn’t have some dog in his lineage, though he had 100% coyote structure he had a little strange coloration. Brother once called in a family unit and killed all 5 st one stand with rifle on;y. Best I ever did, several times, was 3 at once, though I carried rifle and semiauto shotgun {00 or 000) shot. We mouth called for years and did well but calling got so popular, that coyotes wised up to many common sound so we went to electronics with everybody else. Howling and barking became our mainstay, coyotes have their vocabulary and it’s amazing when you learn it a little. Good hunting boys