I've got a CVA v2 .50 cal. I'm trying to do some load developement and I'm now trying some Thor bullets. As I'm pushing the bullet down the bore I have more or less constant pressue/resistance/friction most of the way down. When I get close to the bottom, I've noticed a very real lessening of the pressure to the point that the bullet almost free-falls the last 1.5-2 inches before hitting the powder. Got the same results from the Hornady FPB.Is this normal?--Bill

What you're feeling is, obviously, the bore being slightly larger in diameter at the breech.

Is it normal? Yes and no. It's not designed that way but bores can vary in diameter. It greatly depends on the manufacturing process as to how consistent a barrel is. CF "match grade" barrels that are hand lapped and/or air gauged are held extremely tight tolerances. A run of the mill factory barrel, CF or ML, that's manufactured with no further checks can be less than ideal when it comes to consistency in bore diameter.

With that said, then have you ask "Is it a problem."

Probably not. It's far more critical for the bore to be even in diameter near and at the muzzle. This is where inconsistencies can have a far greater affect on accuracy.

The end all answer is "Does your ML shoot accurately enough?" If it doesn't then it's time to contact CVA and explain the problem.

If were my barrel, I'd do one check just to see how consistent the barrel is at the muzzle. Pull the breech plug, start a projectile from the muzzle, push it down halfway, then push it from the breech end out the barrel. If it felt good and it shot accurately ... I wouldn't sweat it.

the barrel might be ringed or bulged, it usually occurs just ahead of the charged load, as a result of not entirely seating the bullet/sabot on the charge.

Is it normal? Not for a good barrel.

Is it normal for a CVA barrel? Yes.

Thor bullets are critical on fit. It will show a bad barrel right away.

No offense and I'm not trying to be disagreeable.

It is possible that the barrel bulged but I think it's unlikely if the projectile still maintains contact. If it fell through the barrel with absolutely no contact then I think it would far more likely.

It's worthy of checking though. Any detectable deformity (bulge or ring) on the outside of the barrel and especially at the "chamber" (I know, there isn't one) would be reason enough for me to make a tomato stake out it.

You could check it with a straight edge on the outside of the barrel and/or remove the breech plug and drive a slug out the breech end to see if there's a noticeable change confined to a small area.

If there's any question about the integrity of the barrel send it to CVA and let the experts have a look at it.

Out of 7 CVA's. I only had one that had even pressure all the way to the powder with a Thor.

Surprisingly it was the cheapest model Wolf that had the good barrel.

CVA's answer was to shoot Powerbelts.

I'll just stick to using sidelocks.

It makes you wonder if the extra 5 step honing process the real Bergara barrels receive includes air gauging and how much variation is considered acceptable.

A light knurl on the Thor above the skirt might help tighten it up.

I wondered that too, because two of the guns were V2's.

I did try to knurl the Thors. It only helped a little. I didn't trust the bullet to stay on the powder while hunting.

I had come up with a temporary plan for the hunt. I used one of the bigger Thors that wouldn't start down the muzzle, and loaded it through the breech a little past where it would sit over the powder. Then I poured in the powder through the breech, screwed in the breech plug, and rammed the bullet down on the powder from the muzzle. It worked, but was slower loading. I marked the ramrod so I knew how far to push in the Thor from the breech.

is there a reason why I don't have the same experience with PBs?--Bill

With the Thor, you will notice any SLIGHT change in bore diameter. My advice, push the Thor down and then point the barrel down at the floor and give the butt pad a good work out and see if the bullet unseats. If not, chances are that it never will move off even in the field.

Good call. That is a very serious concern. You don't want a projectile to move off the powder charge.

I'd go even one step further. Remove the breech plug, push a Thor down from the muzzle and then see how much tension there is by using the ramrod from the breech end. I'd want to "feel" some resistance.

One other thing. A loose fitting projectile could potentially cause ignition problems with BH209.

-------------

Is there a reason why I don't have the same experience with PBs?

The plastic skirt on PBs is flexible.

My Thors load with thumb pressure, zero issues with BH209 going off.

I only mentioned that because I've read that BH209 likes a firmly seated projectile. I guess it might also depend on how BH209 friendly the breech plug is. I dunno ... just a guess.

Loading with thumb pressure if fine, as long as it holds that same pressure all the way down to the powder.

Yes. You aren't loading the bullet. You're loading the plastic skirt. It will conform to different diameters much better than a solid copper bullet like the Thor.

The barrel could be rung and not visible from the outside , even with the aid of a straight edge. and as far as maintaining contact inside the barrel , well that depends on the severity of the bulge.Either way have it checked.
Sometimes it is visible by looking thru the bore with the plug out and a light at the muzzle, might be able to see a halo. This just sounds like it's in the right place ( just ahead of the charge/bullet).

Thanks for all the input-- I'll be giving CVA a call tomorrow--May have to check out their barrel guarantee. Bill

Push them hard. They'll try and shrug it off, and tell you the Thor is being sized on the way down, and gets loose at the powder.

Don't go for it. Just tell them you can push that bullet out the breech, reload it and it's still tight on the upper part of the barrel. It's not being sized on the way down.

Mauser--Sounds like you've had first-hand experience with them--How'd it work out?--Bill

I got a big run around. They finally gave in, and agreed to having me send it in. That was no guarantee they were going to fix it. I sold the gun to someone who just uses sabots, and he never had a problem.

It only has to vary .001 to have a problem with Thors. I'm kind of picky, and like a tight fit over the powder.

Kind of picky??

Ok, very picky.

O.K.--Just got off phone with nice young man named Ken at BPI(cva). Net results , I'm sending my barrel to them for them to determine if there's a problem. I thought the runaround was minimal--I'll let everyone know in 5-6 weeks how their customer service is--Thanks again for all the input--Bill

send them a couple thors with it and a note asking them to find a bore that these fit good from top to bottom.

Great idea BB. I was going to send one anyway so they could duplicate my experience--but not having to go thru the sizing exercise again with the thors would be a plus. Good way to check out their willingness to go the "extra mile" for good CS.--Bill

You got lucky and got Ken.

It a shame the quality on these foreign made guns is so iffy....

What would you complain about if they weren't?

dont worry swampman, he does this all of the time. He over looks TC's QLA barrels which are often cut off center. His beloved remingtons dirty actions and weak stocks.

I just don't understand you guys defending thse pipebombs. Bigblock455 I understand you because of the free stuff you get from them.

swampman, you are just a complete wakeman sucking idiot. You are the little sheep that follows.

No, I'm just the voice of one trying to prevent folks from buying garbage. I don't get anything for it. It helps me sleep at night.

CVA and Traditions Rock

you are full of crap is what you are. You always push remington. i thought you dont want people buying garbage?

Remington isn't in the muzzleloader business but when they were they made the most accurate muzzleloader you could buy. That's why they've gotten so expensive and the prices keep climbing. Remington and Winchester imported those spanish made POSs for awhile. They were a real blight on these good companies. If you think Remingtons are garbage then it's clear you know little about firearms....of course we already knew that due to your pushing these pipebombs.

They are the bomb....so to speak....

I wouldn't say they've gotten expensive.

http://www.armslist.com/posts/62088...r-sale--remington-model-700ml-with-scope

the only thing people want the 700ml for is for the action. pacnor barrels swap on to them for a smokeless ML set up. Most of the time the bores are shot from the rust in them.

They will out shoot those pipebombs even with a ruined bore. The 700ML is still in great demand because it's the best.

You don't speak from experience, so nobody cares what you think about CVA's.

That antique CVA you had doesn't count. Apples and oranges to the new CVA's.

i highly doubt it swampy, i'd ask for a picture from you, but i know you'd just send me that 10 year old pic you always post.

Its only in demand for those that swap the barrels out for a smokeless build. No one else wants them for anything else.

Folks that want an accurate muzzleloader want them.

I've owned and shot some of these pipebombs. It best to tie them to an old tire and use a long string to pull the trigger.

Be nice to tie you to a tire.........but then that might keep you from sinking to the bottom!!!

No you haven't. At least that's what you said in the past.

Yep, because of my work I get to shoot a lot of these junk brands.

What's your work?

btw Have you seen personally a newer CVA with a Bergara barrel blow up?

The Bergara barrels are made in spain by CVA. They just gave it a different name after they knowingly sold all those defective inlines. It makes folks feel better thinking the quality is there now.

BPI owns Bergara and CVA. CVA doesn't make the barrels.


So, have you witnessed one being blown up?

All the same company. Just a name game to divert attention away from the problems.

Same parent company, but Bergara barrels are made in the Bergara plant. Completely separate from CVA. Bergara doesn't just make barrels for CVA.

BPI also owns Powerbelt. Does CVA make Powerbelt bullets? Powerbelt is an American company. At least they were.

BPI also own Quake and Durasight. CVA make those too?

You need to get back on your meds and STFU on a topic you know nothing about.

You girls are mighty touchy about these CVA/BPI's deceptions.....

Is someone grumpy?

Nothing grumpy about the truth.

They get grumpy when I tell them the truth.

How about the truth on this question?

Have you personally seen a Bergara barrel blow up?

At least Swampman is consistent,
"Everything but Remington is junk so I don't own anything else because it's all junk but I know all about it, it's junk, even though I wouldn't own any of that junk, just ask me, it's junk, What was the question? "

There's no such thing. They are just rebadged CVA barrels.

So, you've never witnessed one, but call them pipe bombs?

How are we supposed to take you seriously?

Nothing worse then a dumb azz that slanders a product that he never used or probably has never seen. Someone with a thimble full of knowledge and that is definitely you should not be allowed to post here.

I'm fairly certain that Swampman gets some sort of perverse gratification from responses to his garbage. I do not understand why it is that he is not banned EVERYWHERE.

As mentioned I've owned several spainish made muzzleloaders. They were very poorly made of soft gritty metal.....scary really....

http://cvaguncases.com/Photographs_Page.html

winchester quality steel these days buddy.

My point exactly...poorly made of soft gritty metal...416 heat treated SS the same stuff used in your beloved Remington rifles is used. LOL at an idiot that day in day out slanders CVA while the company he loves has settled lawsuits one after another with their trigger issues which took 40 years to re-design to prevent the failures.

It's almost like powdered metal compressed into parts. I guess that's why it wears out so fast.

Completely untrue.....on both counts. They've never payed out a dime and the new trigger had nothing to do with the bogus lawsuits. Remington can't control poor gun safety. The guns worked as designed. They didn't blow up and injure people.

It's funny those same things apply to CVA lawsuits, but you can't see it. Double standard?

wear out so fast? LOL ive got over 3000 shots in my optima now. 3000 shots with the average shooter would take 2 life times.

I'm wondering if all the metal parts are MIM?

Did you look at the pictures of all the injuries? http://cvaguncases.com/Photographs_Page.html Clearly not.......CVA paid out a bundle.

does wakeman pay you to spam his work? That website is what his ambulance chasing buddy made up to generate income for himself and wakeman.

Who is this Wakeman you keep talking about?

you fondle this guy and dont even know his name? Gosh, like a government official visiting a columbian whore house.

Changing the subject doesn't change the fact.

Randy Wakeman. Your boss.

Ask remington the sear,cocking piece and bolt shroud are all MIM...don't that make you feel downright secure?. You don't want to discuss metallurgy with me I will run circles around you.

fixed it for you

Prove otherwise..all their stuff was settled out of court and you damn know it . Liar

CVA doesn�t own anything , they are and have always been an importer/ retailer .
They don�t and never have made their own guns .
Well let me take that back and say that statement concerns CVA as most people to include IMO swampman know Connecticut Valley Arms as .
The fact is that there have been many companies that went by Connecticut Valley Arms dating back to the mid 19th century . Those companies were not importers . That being said by the mid to late 19th century a very large % of the guns made by gunsmiths back then , did not carry hand forged barrels . Barrels were being imported in blanks from places like France, Spain and England ..
In fact even as late as the 1940s , Remington was recalling low 6 number lots of their O3A3 for barrel failures not trigger issues

But lets take a look at swampmans link to wakemans lawsuit page .
At first glance a person is kinda taken back . But take a second and read the names . Now maybe my count is off but I see 10 different names filing multiple lawsuits .
Now surly if we consider the shear numbers of Jukar and Adesa guns sold , if there was a real great issue , that page would be a whole web site with hundreds of pages .
So why isn�t it ?
Now take a another couple seconds and do a Google for lawsuits against Connecticut Valley Arms . What you see is this same group of lawsuits talked about over and over again .
Now replace that search with lawsuits against Remington arms.
Kinda funny how no one really is complaining that Remington has paid millions to keep it records sealed .
But lets be fair here . I would seriously doubt that there is any gun manufacture that doesn�t have lawsuits against them . So if we are to make snap judgments and statements against one company , should we not hold all the companies to the same standards ?
I say yes

as to CVA barrels being soft ????
not sure i would agree with that .
i have engraved many of them through the years and cutting a CVA barrel is very much like cutting a Remington or colt barrel . both are very hard and your gravers have to be kept sharp.
What ever steel they use , it isn�t to mill or engraver friendly

myself i would rather cut on a Colerian , Getz or Rice barrel.
Don Getz also makes no qualms about his choice of barrel steel . Which by the way is said by some to be un suitable for even muzzle loading barrels.
Yet I know of no lawsuits against Don .
Yet at the same time the reason Douglas barrels closed up was because of lawsuits . Yet even today many folks near cream their pants with desire when a Douglas barrel comes up on flee bay .
HOWEVER , no mater how you cut it , the consumer makes the final decision. The simple fact is that CVA has been around this long because they have sales . If the consumer finds the product to be lacking then the company doesn�t have sales and they go under .
If the product is good enough , then someone will buy out the rights and continue production . If its not then the gun will not come back on the market for manufacture .
So despite all the hype against CVA , apparently enough consumers are happy with what they buy that the company has continued , despite all its ups and downs.


BillG
Im glad CVA is working with you on your barrel .
In my experience , there are many things that can cause what you are experiencing .
The human sense of feel can find changes to a very high degree . So It could simply be that if your gun is used , the former owner may have left it loaded . Thus the powder charge may have corroded the surface just enough you feel it.
I have an old Sharon barrel out in the shop that when I push a patch down the bore , it feels loose at around 3 inches from the breech . I know what caused it as the barrel had an old load in it that I pushed out .
the more looks fine . but when i run a gaged down it , the breech area is .003 greater then the main bore . that bothered me . so i cut it off and have never re tapped the barrel for a breech


Another reason could be tolerances .
Take TC . They allow .010 variance in the bore . that�s why sometimes brand X projectile works better then brand Z . the bores are just not all the same size .

Have you ever read of a match grade barrel . Well what do you think makes them different then a standard barrel .
So the case may be . I say maybe because I have not seen your barrel first hand .
But the case maybe that your barrel is just enough out in that area , that it was still within tolerances but close enough to being out of tolerances that you feel it .
So most likely CVA will just drop in a new barrel and send it back to you . But its really hard to say because if the above is the case , they may just tell you that the barrel meets specs

If i'm not mistaken Cap. CVA used Douglas barrels on one of their sidelocks.

yep the cva mountain rifles in the early years used douglas.

TC used sharron? barrels and they had to stop in a hurry due to some explosion issues with those barrels.

Bigblock,

Swampy knows who he is.

Doc

Cap'n--Thanks for the input--I'm not familiar with you, but after seeing your handiwork on the sqirrel rifle-I would bet you know what you're talking about. When you say TC has a tolerance of .010 in their barrels--I would assume you mean from barrel to barrel and not within the same barrel. Also, my situation was a little more than a feeling, I could also hear the problem. The bullet would start getting loose at the same spot in my barrel every time, once I got there I would slow the ram rod down significantly and could hear/feel the bullet let go of the inside of the barrel and hear it hit the breech plug--after the free-fall. I also pushed the bullet in from the breech to see how far it would go up the barrel before it wedged--the point was identical to the release point coming down.Bottom line, I have zero confidence that I could ever get a good firm, repeatable, safe seating on the powder.I could probably make it work with a PB since the plastic skirt makes it more forgiving of in-barrel variances, but I'm not interested in doing that. At any rate, you've forgotten more than I'll ever know about ML's and I appreciate your comments.--Bill

i dont know about Sharon and TC . but yes some early CVA mountain rifles used Douglas and others .
However in recent years , there has been some debate as to if CVA ever used Douglas, as the paper work from what I have read isn�t there showing it.
But again CVA was an importer/ retailer so they have always had someone else assemble the rifles or box their kits .

As I understand it , the problem was pretty much industry wide back then . Extruding was simply how barrel blanks were formed . Now they are drawn which makes for a much better and stronger barrel .

Yes Bill that would be .010 plus or minus ,between bores not within a bore .
I don�t know what TC standard is for internal bore tolerances .

But
Like you , I have never cared for barrels that had lose spots or tight spots , if that�s the way the stick floats/ one wants to look at it . But again those areas can happen from many diffrent things
Doc White talked about rifle bore restriction some . he even as i recall calimed that having a bore tighter at the muzzle end , made for a more accurate barrel.
Im not saying thats what you have. . Regardless of the reasoning, if your uncomfortable with the situation then it should be inspected and fixed .

The MIM process for barrel production is interesting. That must be how they sell them so cheap. Of course the fact the they receive money from the spainish government helps too. I googled this Wakeman guy and he is interesting. I'll have to read up on him. Thanks!

Great fiction, you should write some novels.....

Mykeal is much more knowledgeable than you'll ever be. 4th post.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=378346

Hawken rifles were tight at the muzzle, almost like a funnel. Made loading hard, but they claimed it made the shots more accurate. Who knows for sure.

swampy, your reloading room is lonely


Brings an all new meaning to the phrase, "Coming out of the closet"

i would say that if they were , it would have to have been late Hawkins rifles , produced under the Hawkins name after they sold the shop .
i say that because the rifling platform they had , seems to me to have been incapable of drawing cut rifling through a tapered bore .
It is often recorded that Hawkens rifles carried a tapered barrel . But that�s the profile of the outside not the bore
Now I could be wrong but the taper bore /squeeze bore didn�t come about until the advent of forged rifling
Now I have heard of later bench rifles with a tapered bore but normally that was only .0001-2 at the muzzle area .

could you PM me with refrance to Hawkins rifles and the taperd bore big block . i would engoy reading about that

I would seriously doubt that Adesa is using a MIM process for barrel manufacturing .
If they were , their parts would have much higher tolerances. Which swampman , you are saying they don�t
But again if we are to complain about what Adesa does , then why not complain about what S&W does ???
Or Remington for that mater .

The fact simply is that if you have a modern gun , that gun will most likely have MIM parts . doesn�t mater the maker .
In fact many older guns have early MIM type parts .
I remember back in the early 80�s when many manufactures started selling injection cast parts .
Specifically breech plugs . OHHH how the cry went out about how unsafe they were .
Yet today , its not uncommon to find a very large selection of injection cast plugs .
This cry about MIM is IMO nothing more then the old cry about cast vs. forged parts
In fact I would seriously doubt that for those who buy complete finished replacement parts, you would know if the part was originally injected molded or not unless someone told you .

The difference you are talking about is that today MIM also includes binders vs. the old complete metal melt . Its also a completely different process that�s primarily used for making parts that would other wise have a very high production cost OR a lot of milling cost . Again production cost . That�s where the MIM production comes in and frankly where it shines
Despite what you may think , barrel making is not such an area . Yes it takes time but what�s been the major cost is in the rifling of the barrel . But today as more and more barrel makers switch to the button rifling process , which now takes around 60 seconds to rifle a bore vs. cut rifling which even with modern machinery still takes around an hour . By hand , days .
I would bet that Adesa uses the button rifling process as its been accepted in Europe for some time, where we have held onto the cut rifling

I do think the day will come when modern MIM enters the rifle barrel market .
Some suggest that its already in the pistol barrel market ,. But frankly you�re the first I have heard suggest that someone is already using MIM to make rifle barrels.

LMAO seriously . you just gooled him did ya .
thats a new ploy since you been refering to him on near every post for years





here is a good one from back in 2010


and who can forget 2005

Where are you getting that?

Now I know who swamp is, and it all makes sense now.

Like I said Wakeman sems to know what he's talking about. I've been doing some reading of his sites today. I may give him a call. Public safety is important to all of us.

I can show you an old post that Wakeman claims he's shot hundreds of Powerbelts, and liked them. Now he calls them junk.

He's a whore open to the highest bidder.

This one mauser?

Yeah, I forgot. It wasn't hundreds. He shot thousands of them.

He must have liked them. That was before BPI owned them, but now that BPI owns then they're junk.

Just like Toby saying round balls don't work.

LMAO NICE big block , i wonder if he will show up and threaten to sue you for copy write for quoting him as he did me back when I quoted him
Remembered how he got all fired up because I sent a letter to Pedersoli and David�s son personally replied with a volume long letter of information contradicting most everything in the quote

never mind Mauser_Hunter
That , Toby shot Rb for years and wrong many articles on his harvests with RB .
But that�s only part of it Mauser Hunter . At one time there was a large group of us here . Both traditional and modern shooters that came from an another the Huntamerica forum . We remember Wakeman real well .
that�s been along time ago but were you not on that forum at that time with myself , black hart and a few others big block

For those new here who may not understand .
swampman is renoun for this. as has been shown, he knows full well who wakeman is and thats been show . but lets jump back / flash back to 2011
even if you dont read the whole thread . at least read the first 4-5 pages .
https://24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/5357364/1

LMAO anyone else remember RW artical on how bad the Rem 700 was LOL , that was a good thread as well and started out with swampan linking to RW web page LOL

Extremely likely

Mauser hunter . Do you remember the topic , some time ago , concerning the fella who was looking for an 800 yard muzzleloader . Wakeman and swampan were both in that one together as I recall .
Also I think that was the one where swampman got us all going with his recommendation for 60 grains of powder behind a .520 patched round ball as a 50 cal load for elk

Thar she blows


From that thread: #5682532

blowing again

LOL yep that was the one lol

Cap.....I'm well aware. The post that BigBlock posted is from a link I posted on his forum. We all had a good laugh over it.

I know about Toby too. He might be more of a phony than Randy.

Do these guys think we don't remember what they've said in the past?

Randy-Toby-Swamp.........Three peas in a pod.

I would agree that Powerbelts are junk.....look at the brand on them. This Wakeman guy really seems to know his stuff. The hobby needs more like him.

60 grains of 3f and a patched .520 roundball harvested plenty of elk. You just have to be able to shoot. I guess you girls should take lessons.


It sure has.....It's more than enough.

Post Pics of all these "ELK" you have killed with that load Swamprat

They were killed during the 18th and 19th century.....when this wasn't a hobby.

when shots were 30-50 yards that load would work. Wont happen these days unless they are tame elk behind high fences.

You have to be a hunter and not just a shooter. They are killed with stickbows all the time at less than 20 yards.

oh? and have you killed any elk with that load or a stick bow?

Changing the subject will not change the facts. It's a common but poor debate tactic normally used by those that are losing. I see it here often.

I do to, and it's in every one of your posts when you're supposed to answer a question.

I'll use this post I quoted of yours as a prime example.

Of all that post here you are the least knowledgeable (no small feat) and add the least. Admit I'm right and move along.

wakeman would even tell you that you are an idiot if you use that charge and ball on an elk.

Whose Wakeman?

The least knowledgeable, because I don't agree with you?

Everything you say shows how little you know.

No because of everything you say and don't say.

Well, more than one of us has proved you full of crap. I doubt anybody takes you seriously anymore.

The only positive thing I can say about you is you're a 1st class troll. You do it well. Congrats.

I want to know your own experience with this combo on an ELK

LMAO really a hobby . so they were not part of the hundreds you say you have killed .

ok so , references to this historical data ?????
we will need at least 3 different ones. All from different sources stating that load of black powder and that caliber round ball . Both used in a 50 cal gun .

If you're a meat hunter now. How was it different in the 19th century?

You got to hand it to Swampy, he did a good job keeping a topic about a CVA problem at the top of the page.

And he's about a lying sack of hog chit to boot.

Gunner

just changing what shows up on the forum. Let's see how long it takes for it to be changed back.

Nobody here has proven anything except that they are dolts.

From what i have read that you posted you are not doing so well.

Methinks you like to pull chains,if not you must be an awesome person.

He's the guy you were polishing in this post:

Applepolisher





Don't be a tool.

Whose Randy?

Very awesome....

Who's Swamp?


More importantly..........who's on first?

its where you are working in the heat and your underwear gets all soaked.... Oh wait, no... thats Swampass.

Exactly, Swampass 700. He's about as welcome as that feeling in the back of my pants as well. He LOVES to share his ignorance with everyone and swear up and down it's fact.

So are Randy and Wakeman the same person?

Yes, you and Randy Wakeman are the same person.

randy wakeman the know all done all god of muzzleloading

will speak kudos or zeros about stuff
depending if the price is right...............

Yeah, he's awesome.

I don't know Randy or Wakeman but their muzzleloading articles are spot on. It's a shame so many want to hide the truth about these death traps.

[bleep] i will tell anyone that brand abc item is the greatest thing since the invention of the wheel if someone is willing to pay me to say it



hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!

what do you shoot for a muzzleloader swampman??????????

Right now an Encore.

But that's not the case....did you see the xray showing the spainish made breechplug inside the guys head.

How do you know he didn't load it with smokeless powder? How do you know he didn't double load it? How do you know it didn't have a barrel restriction? You don't know.

Why aren't they all blowing up?

There was no operator error. There are dozens pictures of different injuries. Give them time...you never know when defective barrels and breechpugs are gonna turn loose.

A good muzzleloader will handle a double or even a tripple load I've done it on purpose many times. A barrel obstruction blows up at the obstruction.

so ................
the dumbass probably was at fault anyways for something he did or didnt do


i have shot many different brands of muzzle loaders

never had an issue except for a couple of #11 caps failing to fire way back when


i shoot a cva optima 209 now
1st ever inline this year
killed a nice 8pt with it
prior to that i hunted with a tc renegade 50 since 1993

i have also hunted with a replica 1863 springfeild

had a lyman plains pistol from a kit i made

shot a wincheter 45 apex numerous times

shot a savage smokless a couple of times(someday i will get one)
shot a cva wolf a couple of times

and right now i would to get a cva kodiak pro mag in 45 if i can come up with the fundage



i think alot of them had spanish steel


do you have some type of agenda to push????????




so cva had some issues back in 95-96 with their maker of barrels in spain and had some deaths resulting from them possibly

but it also could have been operator headspace and timing in some of those incidents also

im sure they got the crap sued out of them either way


what exactly is your endstate in all of this and what do you hope to accomplish on your soapbox



guns are like
blondes and brunettes
fords and chevys






me myself
im not a fan of remington 700 rifles
but i aint on no crusade about them



what gives man


someone out shoot you with a old school cva or something


i bet my old school optima 209 with 100 grs of 777 ffg and a 270 grain sabertooth will out shoot your encore



hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..........

A good muzzleloader will handle a double or even a tripple load I've done it on purpose many times.

i call b.s.
no one would do this on purpose
that is why barrels are proofed randomly at the factory out of batches of the steel fromula being used in the run until that batch of steel is used up in that runs production


metalurgy..................

i do not beleive you one bit about the double or triple loading



you credibilty just went by the wayside in my opinon........................

Believe what you like. I've fired muzzleloaders with 200 and even 300 grains of 3f and 2 bullets over the charge.

That's what the guys in the law suits said too.

Keep it up, and you can join them.

It won't be owner error though eh?
_________________________

Proofing barrels has to be done when you build rifles. Sadly CVA doesn't know that.

total b.s.

"Last night curiosity got the best of me and I uncovered the Rockwell hardness tester to check out the hardness of the Bergara Encore barrels.

"Cheap, Soft Spanish guns" has traditionally sometimes been true, unfortunately, which I can personally vouch for in regard to some I have had such as a Llama 1911 type .45 ACP that had the slide showing signs of stretching after very little use. Likewise, my .45 Firestar shows signs of stretching with only a few Federal +Ps run through it.

Likewise, Taurus handguns from Brazil once had a reputation for being cheaply made, but today it is another story entirely with Taurus putting out superb guns that rival the very best. Frankly, I have picked up several Taurus wheel guns that left me lusting for one myself!

Over the past year and a half doing machine work on Bergara barrels, I have rechambered, cut and crowned, relined, had numerous barrels cut rifle rebored to larger calibers, drilled and tapped, and cut my TBOSS into them.

Their steel machines VERY nicely. Harking back to the days when I did a lot of cut rifling reboring, off the cuff in terms of machineability, I would put the Bergara Encore barrel steel somewhere between early Winchester stainless steel and Ruger's blued, chrome-moly, steel for machining easily and very cleanly.

Cut rifle reboring will tell you more about the machining qualities of barrel steel probably better than any other test. The Bergara barrels I have had rebored recently have cut rifled beautifully!

Internal finishes and the costs to produce those finishes are in part a function of how readily the steel machines and is reflected in the finishes of both the bores and the chambers of the Bergara barrels and their excellent price points.

The point of this Newsletter is this. Has anything by way of barrel hardness (ie, tensile strength) been sacrificed to get these nice finishes at the price we pay for the product?

Drum rollllllll:

Blued steel Bergara Encore barrels Rockwell hardness tested at Rc 25.
Stainless steel Bergara Encore barrels Rockwell hardenss tested Rc 17.
(Their Encore muzzle loader barrels are made from the same steel as their rifle barrels.)

How does this compare with other high power rifle barrels?

Quick summary of checks I have made over the years:

Older vintages of military Mauser barrels and early 1903 Springfield .30/06 manganese steel barrels around Rc 10.

Later Springfield .30/06 barrels made from what P.O. Ackley said was "WD4140," WD meaning "War Department", was around Rc17, the average hardness of "normalized," ie, air cooled 4140 steel.

The majority of commercial barrels from Winchester, Remington, Ruger, etc. tested around Rc 24-26, while at the time I tested them, the Savage 110 barrels were right up there at around Rc 30-32.

Shilen barrels at the time were Rc 19 while Douglas was around Rc 25.

Current Shilen barrels run around Rc 29-30.

Most 416 stainless rifle barrels are around Rc 20, +/-.

As you can see, barrel steel hardnesses range all over the planet, over the entire hardness range from dead soft annealed up through about Rc 32, the upper end of the hardness range that still readily permits the types of machining operations involved in making barrels.

Bottom line:
The Bergara Encore barrels made in Bergara, Spain are right where they need to be for hardness, which determines in large part the tensile strength of the steel.

"Soft Spanish guns" does not apply here!

Another plus for Bergara barrels!

whatever you got an axe to grind and some agenda to push


you have no credibilty at all with your double and triple charge and double bullet post


you need to go post you world of commander mcbragg exploits somewhere else

no one here beleives any thing you say from the looks of this entire thread


AMF...........................................................






























































































































































assclown.......................................................

Laughable cut and paste.......they "steel" is trash. Bergara barrels are just the old CVA barrels with a different stamp.

IMO it's impossible to blow up a good American made barrel with blackpowder. I've tried. The strange metals used in spainish guns is weak and gritty. I'm not sure how they make it, but it's scarry.

GFY Azzclown..no one believes anything you say. You are the 24hrcampfire village idiot.

Next time put in 300 grains of smokeless and touch it off. We should only be so lucky

If you had any experience, you'd agree with everything I say.

Trust me, I don't want any of your "Experience"

You have no experience period.

"Bolt-action" muzzleloaders crack me up.

Of course it's cut and paste. That doesn't change the tests.

Prove them wrong.

Fixed it for you Idiot

That is pretty funny. I have a remington muzzleloader that I use for pry bar. When I want to kill deer I use a CVA.

I think its about time I put your useless AZZ on ignore. You add absolutely zip nada zilch to an conversation.

That's because you're still a moron.

"Bolt-action" muzzleloaders are the cat's ass. The bolt action is by far the best for those all-important quick follow-up shots.

Double loading and double balling a barrel used to be the accepted way of proofing a barrel when you made a rifle. I have done it as well .
In Fact doing so was recommended in a lot of the old Muzzleloading manuals to include those by Sam Fedela .

HOWEVER!!!! Your not supposed to be doing it with the barrel in the gun and up to your shoulder .
Its also should be noted that doing so IS NOT A PROOF in any way shape or form
Doing so doesn�t mean a barrel will hold that charge again or for that mater hold even a lesser charge the next time its loaded.

As to proofing having to be done when you build rifles . Guys , do a search for swampman or read some of the links we have posted . The topic has been covered , time and time again to the point of showing tests where guns were purposely loaded to the point they failed . That included guns with American made barrels
Which didn�t fair any better then Spanish made ones .

He IMO is a sad person that can only get people to talk with him if he trolls .
Let him alone and he will go away for another 3 or 4 months

C'mon Cap, I know you have a couple of bolt-actions stashed somewhere. The bolt-action flinter was the greatest innovation since black powder.

At least they aren't pipebombs and they are the most accurate style.

Sure they are. Just look at all the imitation bolt-actions they spawned.

i started to build one of those period bolt actions once . I got a far as mocking up a working ignition model . Doing so showed real quick just why they were not all that popular .
My first Muzzleloader was a low number O3A3 that I converted in shop class . Back when most boys had at least a 22 and the older boys had guns in their trucks at school .
The 2nd was a Winchester I converted . Both worked really well .
Made all my own powder and bullet moulds for those as well .
I sold them to get enough money to buy my first traditional gun , which was a CVA hawkins then a Kentucky . Not one of the two piece stocks but one of their early one piece limited runs that CVA did .
Since those first 2 rifles I have not owned a bolt action or any type of modern designed muzzle loading rifle . doesn�t mean I couldn�t make one if I wanted . I could . But I don�t see the need
I do have bolt action and lever center fire rifles . Even a couple brake opens .
About 20 years ago I went strictly traditional flintlocks for my hunting .
My personal opinions on that choice , I think I have made very clear through the years , so no real need to rehash that . Here as of late , I have had a desire to build a sharps though . Maybe 45-70 or 45-110. But these days I don�t have much time for what I want to build for myself .

Swamp....You ever have a Knight Wolverine?

They were great rifles until CVA drove them out of business. Nobody was ever killed by a Knight.

knight killed themselves with models no one wanted. They are back in business just in case your mental sickness doesnt know that.

Waste of bandwidth.

There is a new company called Knight. The old company was driven out of business by CVA cloning everything they made and flooding the market with them for $89.95 each. They can do that because they get subsidies from the Spainish government. American jobs lost and a safe muzzleloader gone from the market.

What did CVA copy? Knight had plunger and bolt guns. You see any of those in CVA guns?



So, did you have a Knight Wolverine? You slipped the question again.

Yep, CVA made an exaxt copy of all of them. They did the same with T/C. They've even cloned T/Cs new switch barrel rifle.

Do you have to pay someone off to remain here?

This Spanish made stuff isn't junk.

Spanish Pegaso.


Spanish girls!

Dumb as a rock, and a really lousy troll.


Did you own a Wolverine?

I'm not that much into comic books.

I just wanted to see if you'd tell the truth. I know the answer. Well, I know what you said in the past. Not sure if it's the truth.


You really need to stop this trolling act. It only works if it's believable, and you're way past that point.

I'm just here to keep this topic at the top.

Good job.

ttt