My buddy has this awesome scope leveling tool that makes sure the rifle is level to the scope, then you can level the scope to match. It works awesome and I want one for myself. Only problem is, I can't find one. There has to be more of them. There is no markings on this one what so ever. Best scope leveler I have ever used.







Help!

Thanks,

Todd

How does that make sure the scope is level? Do you look through the scope and line the crosshair up with something?

It levels the rifle scope combo, then you put a separate level on a flat spot on the scope or line your crosshairs up with a plum bob that is down range once this tells you your rifle scope combo is level.

Todd

How accurate is the bubble? And how do you keep the sliding halves perfectly aligned?

The angle cuts on the scope half and barrel half have to be perfectly square to the level as well as each other. Very easy to do with a milling machine or 3d printer. It does not guarantee that the rifle and scope sit square in the stock but it does put the scope directly inline with the barrel of the rifle. Then match the crosshairs up with a plum bob or a level on the elevation turret. The plumb bob is the most accurate way. Then, once those two feats are accomplished, you match a clamp on scope level to this tools level and you have a perfectly level scope. It works awesome.

Todd

Where did he get his ? It's very possible it's a one off, custom made by a talented/skilled machinist.

He got it off the internet circa 2005-2006. It works well enough, it will take off if the world wide web ever finds out about them.

Todd

Have it duplicated, market it, get rich. If you don't somebody else will.

Over years of using various tools involving small spirit levels, that supposedly made sure you scope was absolutely square with the rifle's bore, that SMALL spirit levels aren't accurate enough.

Plus, in most scopes there's no guarantee that using one of their "flats" that the flat is square with the reticle--or adjustments.

The only way to really find out is to shoot the rifle/scope combination.

I have a plastic device that straps on a flat of the rifle with rubber bands, and it has two white cards that stick up on both sides of the scope with horizontal black lines on them to compare to the crosshairs. It works pretty well after you get the hang of it.

pass the reticle tru, and hold the fluff......

I don't want to argue the opinion on if this works or not for me. I know it works for me. Might not for you. I would just like to find one of these. They work great for me. And as said, lining up the cross hairs to a plum bob (550 cord with a heavy weight on the bottom so gravity lines up the cord perfectly) that is tacked to a target down range is the most accurate way to align the crosshairs to what this tool's level tells me is level to the gun.

If you have seen one before or know of where I could find one, I'd love to own one.

Thanks,

Todd

Seems like Brownell’s used to sell them, if memory serves.

John

I have one. Brownells sells them.

Thank you! I have one on order!

Made my whole day.

Todd

Scope Leveler.

Todd

I'm not sure the need for the level in the device, or the need for a plumb bob down range. When placed properly on the scope bell and rifle barrel, theoretically, it give you a vertical line through both azes. Then, just look through the scope and rotate it until the vertical cross hair is lined up in the slot. Seems to me if you could secure it, you should be able to level the cross hairs regardless of the cant of the gun.

You mean like the Reticle-Tru?.....

Still need a plumb line or such, for mounting a scope level.

I have one too. It's a Segway, and Grafs tossed one at no charge into my box some years back. Works great, as long as you have a flat on the scope base for it to sit. Rails are perfect.

A 6" steel rule held against the ocular and lined up across the bars makes it easier to check the alignment. I also check the verticle if I can find a good center line like the firing pin sticking through the shroud. Scope caps are a terrible reference for alignment.

This ^^^^^

The Reticle-Tru is far more effective than any of the devices using a bubble, or that assume any flat part of a scope is actually square to the reticle, or requires the rifle to be level. Instead, it aligns the reticle with the center of the rifle's action.

That said, a LOT of shooters see any reticle as being "crooked" because they don't hold rifles level. I have known quite a few shooters who consistently mount scopes at a certain angle, because the scopes then appear level to them when aiming. One of these was a very experienced hunter and competitive shooter, who knew exactly what he was doing. Another, however, did not--until he actually looked through a perfectly squared scope on another person's rifle, and declared it was "crooked."

Saw this again in a local gun shop just yesterday. A guy had brought a new rifle and scope to the shop's gunsmithing department to have the scope mounted, and came in to pick it up. When he shouldered the rifle and looked through the scope, he declared it was crooked. However, his son (who looked to be in his late teens) also shouldered the rifle and said it looked level to him. The difference was the father was pretty "stout,"and the son was not. Consequently the father's stout shoulder tended to tilt the rifle when he aimed through the scope. I could even see this plainly from across the room.

The gunsmith had seen this many times, but instead of trying to tell the father he was FOS, said: "It's your rifle, and you're going to be shooting it. I'm happy to make it feel right for you." Which of course involved mounting the scope "crooked."

I bought one from Brownells at least ten years ago. Using it according to directions will get get you very close, but I've gone back to eyeballing for a trued up reticle.

These work really well. Have had one for years. Got mine at Brownells too.

The Reticle tru & the the other one pictured were not on the market to my knowledge when I ask a bud how many scope level gadgets he had. He replied; all of them I hope. I borrowed them & my cross dominate or learning disabled mind couldn't make sense out of any of them. So I made something. Like MD says, it's dependent on a flat surface on the scope to be parallel with the cross hairs, but if the rifle is meant for serious stuff, I confirm with a plumb line.

Surface ground tool steel, & the post are milled parallel to the base. The torpedo level has been calibrated. The little POS level on the rail is not level, but I know where it reads when the rifle is level so I left in on there. Cluttered pics you'll agree.

How does confirming with a plumb line assure the vertical crosshair bisects the bore?

Why do they need to bisect the bore? In my opinion that is not needed unless one is using a beaver tail forend.
David Tubbs cants his rifle and levels the reticle to his cant

Tubb is shooting at known distances and I'm pretty sure he's got the necessary "double corrections" grooved for his rotated coordinate system.

There are no absolutes with any of this, all I can do level the rail & then use a plumb line to see if the vertical Xhair is perpendicular to the rail. This method also tells me if the Xhair is perpendicular to the top of the knob, or parallel the erector.

For bisecting the vertical to the ceterline of the bore, & for lack of any other knowledge on how to, I would use the windage knob.

I cant my rifle and a i shoot at unknown distances and have zero trouble. The reticke must be truly level not the rifle

If memory serves - the Reticle-tru was developed by Seely Masker, a
gunsmith and bench rest shooter from Dutchess County NY.
He sold it with the proceeds to enable taking care of a disabled
son.

I suppose it's a matter of a small cant leading to small effects.

Consider an admittedly extreme example, the crosshair at a 45 degree cant to the bore. When the reticle is held level then the bore is well out to the side, let's say to the left. For POA and POI to coincide at, say, 100 yards for a baseline zero the bullet must travel left to right. Now dial in the correction for 600 yards. How far right will the bullet land?

Any cant of the reticle relative to the bore puts the bore out to the side when the reticle is held level. The higher the scope is mounted the bigger the effect. But like I said, and what your shooting indicates, small cant -- small effect.

That's pretty much it. If the reticle is consistently level, for all practical hunting purposes (even a pretty long range) it doesn't matter if it's not exactly above the bore.

But I believe Tubb uses a mount that places his scope directly above the bore of his canted rifle.

Which doesn't guarantee anything, because as I stated before the exterior of some scopes and mounts are not perpendicular to the reticle.

Your memory is incorrect. It was developed (and patented) by Jerry Schmidt of Bozeman, Montana around a decade ago.

On the Tubb 2000 the base cants to level with the ru g ke canted. I'm not sure that maked the retjvke center the bore or not. I remember reading where Tubbs said it didn't have to bisect the bored center

I am not totally sure either--but am sure of one thing, most scope-leveling tools are designed for average shooters who are convinced the scope on their deer rifle HAS to be perfectly "square" or they risk missing a buck. And they'll go to extraordinary lengths to convince themselves their scope is perfectly square.

Most of them should worry more about tilting the rifle differently from shot to shot, which can indeed have an effect on accuracy on longer shots. Which is where a small spirit level will actually help.

+1.......

That's also a reason to use something other than a round dot or bullseye when group testing or sighting in.

I never knew how bad I canted until I started using a level on scopes. It keeps me consistent if nothing else.

+1

Absolutely. But also as you and MD have both pointed out, the effects of a slight cant or a slight offset between the reticle and the bore are relatively insignificant out to distances most people are concerned with.

Assuming a rifle/scope setup has a flat surface on the top of the receiver and another on the scope that is square with the erector assembly (my preference is to use the top of a pic rail and the bottom flat surface of the scope tube under the erector assembly or the top of the elevation turret), my preferred method to square the erector with the rifle is to use two sections of a multi-piece cleaning rod, two elastic bands, and a caliper. I slide one rod in a slot in the pic rail, and secure it to the rifle by wrapping an elastic underneath the magazine area, and attach the other rod to the bottom of the scope or the top of the turret using the other elastic. I make sure the rods are centered side-to-side with equal amounts extending out either side. I measure the distance between the ends of the rods on each side and rotate the scope until the two rods are perfectly parallel. I then check to make sure the reticle and erector assembly are square by checking tracking on a collimator to ensure no horizontal shift over the range of vertical erector travel. Finally, for rifles that will be used extensively for engaging targets at long range, I install a bubble level on the scope and align it with a plumb bob. This is mainly used as a training aid to teach the body's muscle memory to hold the rifle level.

For rifle/scope setups that do not have the necessary flat surfaces perpendicular to the axis of vertical erector travel, the Reticle-Tru is my preferred method, although the setup should still be checked for misalignment between the reticle and the erector, as the Reticle-Tru simply squares the reticle with the rifle.

Yes, and not just Tubb.

Some shooting schools and instructors emphasize having the rifle canted such that the buttpad best sits in the shooter's "shoulder pocket" in the prone position. Actually the shoulder/pectoral area, not the "pocket" that many people think of. This is done by canting the rifle, to whatever degree is needed by that shooter's physique. Some need more cant than others, and having a reticle square with the rifle won't work for everyone, as you would force the buttpad to be in an unnatural position for them.

Another way to think about it, is that some people are trying to have the rifle with no cant (vertical with the world) but their bodies are not built that way, so why do it?

The reasoning behind all of this is the belief that having the rifle canted, in the ideal position for that shooter, is better for mitigating recoil. Once the rifle cant is determined, the reticle is then leveled with the world. Simple.

Hodnett and crew is one school, but I've heard it mentioned by others, and those who have gotten training from them. Forcing the rifle to be vertical for everyone is a myth that they are trying to get shooters away from. They are shooting LR and ELR with their rifles setup this way. However, they are generally using bipods, so the canted fore end is less of a concern, compared to a beavertail rested on a flat surface.

edit to add - I am not a writer or shooting instructor

This is why adjustable butt plates exist. Having the rifle vertical and adjusting the butt pad to fit the shooter is best.

So many shooting disciplines. Tubb's is one, mine started with a 1000 yard bench gun where you just get all components, all, dialed in the best you possibly can.

Hunting rifles? Slap a scope on, eyeball it, get the eye relief, & you got it.

My tool started with obsessive practices for getting a rifle the best I could. Then it became a quick/trouble free tool for aligning a scope with the gun. A 4 foot long plumb line on a target, & shooting some, tells a lot about reticle level, reticle vs. the turret & how it tracks. Just about all I need to know about my set up.

Or,,, I think it does.

I build stocks for myself with a noticeable "twist" so I can hold the rifle vertical and have the butt sit comfortably in my shoulder. If the stock is straight, I'll grind the pad to cheat it over a bit. Otherwise, I just cant the rifle and mount the scope crooked. GD

Of course, and tube style stocks, that allow the entire buttstock to rotate

However it's not a factory option for all rifles. MRAD doesn't have it, unless they came out with an accessory option. And that rifle is getting more use at the training schools. I believe on the AI, angle adjustment is standard on the AX and an option on the AT. But I think the big contracts went to the MRAD, and so they cant the rifle

I know some people who are fine with quick LOP and quick cheek piece adjustments, but do not want butt plate angle adjustment on their rifles.

For a dang quarter, I think a scope manufacturer could provide user the ability to mount a perfectly level scope every time with no fuss. The device the OP is showing is on the right track, but not quite there. One of these days I meet a scope rep snd give him the plans. It’s just geometry.

You evidently haven't read the entire thread, which is not unusual.

Here's the simplified version:

1) Most tools for "squaring" the scope with the rifle don't work very well.

2) Perfectly "squaring" the scope is pretty much irrelevant or average hunters, even though many obsess about it anyway.

3) The major factor is keeping the reticle at the same level during EVERY shot, whether or not the reticle is "square" to the rifle's bore.

4) Yes, it is just geometry (which includes the physics of exterior ballistics), but the average hunter has no comprehension of how any of this really affects his field shooting--which is basically not enough to matter.

"basically not enough to matter"

Exactly.

This little device that I asked about just does “good enough”. I highly doubt it is perfect, but it’s very easy and does good enough to hold minute of milk jug for me out to 500. I am a canter. Getting a level bubble attached to my scope helps me be accurate and allows consistency with my turret and hash marks. The only time I target shoot per se is the local dynamite shoots where we are shooting pop cans full of dynamite at 400-600 yards for the “Hunter” class. I’ve won that a few times so that’s all I need.

Thanks again for the help and input.

Todd

It never made sense to me to hang the scope level with the rifle. Rarely the most natural hold has the rifle sitting perfectly level. Don’t believe me? With a scope perfectly level to the action, close you eyes, grip the rifle as comfortably as you can, open your eyes and move the cross hairs to something plumb without disturbing what is the most natural hold. You may find the results startling!

I may be in the vast minority when it comes to this method, but it works for me.

Hang a plumb down range, get into your most natural position, move the cross hairs on and off the plumb, clock the scope so that the vertical post is parallel to the plumb. Tighten the scope down. If you have level on the scope, you can adjust the level to level when the vertical post is parallel with the plumb. This takes a bit more screwing around but it’s worth the trouble imo. Keeps the rifle in its most natural hold rather than “ fighting the rifle “ Ymmv

Looks like this is well covered

Throw in my astigmatism, and all the vertical crosshairs seem curved to me. It’s a wonder I hit anything past 50 yards...but I do try to level them the best I can.

Drink a tall glass of Crown Royal.

Allow time to cure your vision.

Eyeball the scope and tighten rings.

The whiskey eye never lies.

Imagine what real whiskey would do.

Yeah but CR comes with a free sandbag.

Have told this story before, but will again: The late, great fishing/hunting/shooting writer Charles F. Waterman (known, of course, as Charlie, since he was not a formal sort of guy) competed nationally in handgun target shooting, back when the major deal was shooting one-handed with a revolver.

He developed such bad nerves before a major match that he eventually consulted his physician--who advised imbibing a little alcohol before a match. (This was a LONG time ago.) Charlie did not drink much, and then very occasionally, but tolerated brandy. With some experimentation he and his wife Debie found that drinking X ounces of Christian Brothers brandy exactly half an hour before a match did the trick. But not long after the shooting Charlie was pretty drunk.

At one big match, an hour after he shot the loudspeaker announced: "Would Charles Waterman please come to the scorer's tent?" It took both Debie (not very big) and a couple of male friends to support Charlie enough to get there, and all were pretty nervous.

Once there, the head scorer told Charlie that he'd just set a national record. Whereupon Charlie kind of grunted.

Then the scorer asked what team he shot for.

Debie firmly announced "Christian Brothers!"

And they then led Charlie away....

That is a great story! Thanks for sharing that!

Todd

An approximation of an anecdote from Littlewood's Miscellany:

I'll have a neat brandy.

Don't you know brandy destroys the coats of the stomach?

Well the old boy will have to go in his shirtsleeves then.

Great story.

A friend, who used to shoot in high dollar live pigeon matches years ago, liked Inderal, an older beta blocker, to calm his nerves before a shoot.

I think that kinda stuff is outlawed in the Olympics.

JB, I agree that the Reticle-Tru is the easiest to use, simplist reticle device ever. Jerry sent me one early on to test and write my observations. Here's a link. https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/6632100/1

DF

True, I caught this in myself looking (aiming? ) into a mirror and could see the cant in the rifle, worked at it and broke the habit.

the reticle tru works well.darrell holland sells a kit and he knows his stuff.was interested to hear about seely masker.talked to him a few times 30 years ago.alot of the old timers are gone now or retired.these guys could build a rifle.

the reticle tru works well.darrell holland sells a kit and he knows his stuff.was interested to hear about seely masker.talked to him a few times 30 years ago.alot of the old timers are gone now or retired.these guys could build a rifle.i would look at the holland guns website if you are looking for something a little more advanced.

How to get Jerry Schmidt’s Reticle Tru device:

https://parabola-llc.com/

I’ve been using them for several years now; they work.

What has to be wrong for that tool to show an off centered bubble? I can see where using a wind age adjustable set of rings could.cause this but with typical rings, there had to be a manufacturing glitch that is gonna be hard to.fix.

the reticle tru has nothing to do with a bubba bubble.

Is this what you're speaking of? Scope leveling kit

I have one of his very first original designs. When I received it, it had a hand written note in it that if I saw any way to improve it to contact him and let him know.

I want the scope square with the rifle, and the rifle square with the world. There is no reason to have variables when relying on dialing turrets to get out to yonder.

I probably have mounted 20-30 scopes in 50 years. I set the rifle in a cradle, and position it so it looks level. I set the scope in the rings on the rifle and align the vertical cross hairs with the edge of a sheet of panneling on the wall I know is level vertical that I set with a 6 foot level when I put it up.The tighten everything up. I have shot a lot of big game with scopes so mounted from 20 yards to maybe 400 and none of the animals seemed to care and none jumped up and ran off.

Years ago, about 1965,the first rifle I bought was a Winchester Model 88 and I put Redfield tip of mounts on it with an $18 Bushnell scope. I was shooting it one day, testing whether it lost zero when the scope was tipped off and reset.Nope, it did fine. Some time during the session Ii stupidly forgot to reset the scope and shot the rifle with the scope tipped off off.The rifle usually shot about 1&1/4" groups at 100 yards which was good for those 88's . The shots with the scope tipped off had the same POI as when it wasn't. Go figure. I know, as John mentioned, I shoot with a cant and it again does not seem to matter.

IMHO, all these scope leveling devices fit in the same classification as the Butt Out Tool or the Cough Suppressor. Amazing what people will fall for because of marketing hype

Yep. ^^^

I follow this method, but I'm not a long distance shooter.

maybe that's why?.....

Yep...

LMAO!

Could be!

All joking aside: I like gadgets, especially when it comes to what we're talking about here. I've owned everyone of them mentioned (except the Holland rifle system) and either returned or sold them all and went back to a plumb bob.

Whatever works for you, roll with it.

I've got one of these. Bought it last year, and have mounted about 6 scopes with it. As others described, this device ensures the line through the bore axis and the scope axis is perpendicular to gravity, i.e. the rifle/scope combo is perfectly level. You then rotate the scope in its rings to align the vertical reticle with a plumb bob or other vertical reference line. It is easy and foolproof, and doesn't rely on hoping some surface of the rifle or scope is machined flat and level.

Yep... simple is pretty hard on some people. I’m glad we aren’t all cut from the same cloth..

Todd

But it does rely on the accuracy of that cheap little bubble level.

And you're back to using a plumb line.

The Reticle Tru is the best of the bunch in my opinion and that's worth what you paid for it.

Not really. You could ditch the level and eyeball extremely close, probably closer than the bubble.

There isn’t that much science that goes into a bubble..... a little bit of air and water.

This tool works for me. I’m glad I had help finding one.

Thanks again for that.

Todd

These Campfire threads crack me up. Some people insist that you gotta have the most precise tool ever made. Some people insist that you can just eyeball it.

"My way is the only way"!

No, my way is the only way"!

It's all very entertaining.

I've had one of those devices for years. It does make sense to have the center line of the scope directly over the center line of the bore BEFORE leveling the reticle with a plumb bob or whatever.

However, when I used the device and leveled the scope over the bore it did not coincide with using a level across the raceways or using a level on the pic base. So now you're left with trying to determine which method is the most accurate.

I've mounted numerous scopes per year for the past 10 years with mine. One year I misplaced mine so I bought another. Can't imagine being without one. Most people looking for them on the Brownells site don't realize they are in the "Gunsmith Tools and Supplies" section. As far as the accuracy. I've competed in ELR matches and if your reticle is off even a little, it can cause a left or right miss. Even at 2k yds my left right impacts have never been in question.

https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-...ertical-reticle-instrument-prod6097.aspx

Alan

I've used the Segway reticle leveler for nearly 30 years. Works great, $20. Mine is the old model without the useless level built in.

That pretty well sums up the old 'fire.

A friend has a similar tool without the spirit level, works well.

I use the Wheeler system that incorporates two levels.

It gets you close, then I do a tall target test for the final adjustment.

I put a pc of paper on the wall and draw a line w a level.
Then I put my rifle on bags and at lowest scope mag, shine a flashlight through the objective projecting the crosshair on my paper.
Rifle is leveled in the bags of course.

My kitchen island is close to a wall. Works great.

I used to be able to eyeball them super good.
Those days are gone.
Use above method now. Seems to work fine for me.
But I shoot 400 yards and under.

I just slapped a scope on an old Sako, it is level.
However, the cheekpiece is a little thick on the rifle and when I get comfy it's "crooked".
Looks like a Boyds Platinum and some sandpaper might be the fix.

That is the problem/question. How would you define a rifle that is leveled in the bags? And how do you determine that? There are many technics used but they rarely coincide if you check with more than one. The EDX tool is just one method and will conflict with others. My gunsmith always uses a level across the raceways to "level the rifle in the bags", but if you drop the EDX tool onto the scope & barrel you will see that they aren't both level. Put a bubble level on the pic rail and you may get a different orientation for a "level rifle" all together.

There are two ways of looking at scope leveling:
1) you can accept the fact that you will never be able to perfectly rein in all of the variables

or

2) you can fool yourself into thinking that you can.

I guess that a person can be happy, whichever of the two he chooses.