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Why do they need to bisect the bore? In my opinion that is not needed unless one is using a beaver tail forend. David Tubbs cants his rifle and levels the reticle to his cant I remember reading where Tubbs said it didn't have to bisect the bored center Yes, and not just Tubb. Some shooting schools and instructors emphasize having the rifle canted such that the buttpad best sits in the shooter's "shoulder pocket" in the prone position. Actually the shoulder/pectoral area, not the "pocket" that many people think of. This is done by canting the rifle, to whatever degree is needed by that shooter's physique. Some need more cant than others, and having a reticle square with the rifle won't work for everyone, as you would force the buttpad to be in an unnatural position for them. Another way to think about it, is that some people are trying to have the rifle with no cant (vertical with the world) but their bodies are not built that way, so why do it? The reasoning behind all of this is the belief that having the rifle canted, in the ideal position for that shooter, is better for mitigating recoil. Once the rifle cant is determined, the reticle is then leveled with the world. Simple. Hodnett and crew is one school, but I've heard it mentioned by others, and those who have gotten training from them. Forcing the rifle to be vertical for everyone is a myth that they are trying to get shooters away from. They are shooting LR and ELR with their rifles setup this way. However, they are generally using bipods, so the canted fore end is less of a concern, compared to a beavertail rested on a flat surface. edit to add - I am not a writer or shooting instructor
Last edited by 4th_point; 09/01/20.
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Why do they need to bisect the bore? In my opinion that is not needed unless one is using a beaver tail forend. David Tubbs cants his rifle and levels the reticle to his cant I remember reading where Tubbs said it didn't have to bisect the bored center Yes, and not just Tubb. Some shooting schools and instructors emphasize having the rifle canted such that the buttpad best sits in the shooter's "shoulder pocket" in the prone position. Actually the shoulder/pectoral area, not the "pocket" that many people think of. This is done by canting the rifle, to whatever degree is needed by that shooter's physique. Some need more cant than others, and having a reticle square with the rifle won't work for everyone, as you would force the buttpad to be in an unnatural position for them. Another way to think about it, is that some people are trying to have the rifle with no cant (vertical with the world) but their bodies are not built that way, so why do it? The reasoning behind all of this is the belief that having the rifle canted, in the ideal position for that shooter, is better for mitigating recoil. Once the rifle cant is determined, the reticle is then leveled with the world. Simple. Hodnett and crew is one school, but I've heard it mentioned by others, and those who have gotten training from them. Forcing the rifle to be vertical for everyone is a myth that they are trying to get shooters away from. They are shooting LR and ELR with their rifles setup this way. However, they are generally using bipods, so the canted fore end is less of a concern, compared to a beavertail rested on a flat surface. edit to add - I am not a writer or shooting instructor This is why adjustable butt plates exist. Having the rifle vertical and adjusting the butt pad to fit the shooter is best.
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So many shooting disciplines. Tubb's is one, mine started with a 1000 yard bench gun where you just get all components, all, dialed in the best you possibly can. Hunting rifles? Slap a scope on, eyeball it, get the eye relief, & you got it. My tool started with obsessive practices for getting a rifle the best I could. Then it became a quick/trouble free tool for aligning a scope with the gun. A 4 foot long plumb line on a target, & shooting some, tells a lot about reticle level, reticle vs. the turret & how it tracks. Just about all I need to know about my set up. Or,,, I think it does.
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I build stocks for myself with a noticeable "twist" so I can hold the rifle vertical and have the butt sit comfortably in my shoulder. If the stock is straight, I'll grind the pad to cheat it over a bit. Otherwise, I just cant the rifle and mount the scope crooked. GD
Last edited by greydog; 09/01/20.
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This is why adjustable butt plates exist. Having the rifle vertical and adjusting the butt pad to fit the shooter is best. Of course, and tube style stocks, that allow the entire buttstock to rotate However it's not a factory option for all rifles. MRAD doesn't have it, unless they came out with an accessory option. And that rifle is getting more use at the training schools. I believe on the AI, angle adjustment is standard on the AX and an option on the AT. But I think the big contracts went to the MRAD, and so they cant the rifle I know some people who are fine with quick LOP and quick cheek piece adjustments, but do not want butt plate angle adjustment on their rifles.
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For a dang quarter, I think a scope manufacturer could provide user the ability to mount a perfectly level scope every time with no fuss. The device the OP is showing is on the right track, but not quite there. One of these days I meet a scope rep snd give him the plans. It’s just geometry.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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You evidently haven't read the entire thread, which is not unusual.
Here's the simplified version:
1) Most tools for "squaring" the scope with the rifle don't work very well.
2) Perfectly "squaring" the scope is pretty much irrelevant or average hunters, even though many obsess about it anyway.
3) The major factor is keeping the reticle at the same level during EVERY shot, whether or not the reticle is "square" to the rifle's bore.
4) Yes, it is just geometry (which includes the physics of exterior ballistics), but the average hunter has no comprehension of how any of this really affects his field shooting--which is basically not enough to matter.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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"basically not enough to matter"
Exactly.
Old Corps
Semper Fi
FJB
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This little device that I asked about just does “good enough”. I highly doubt it is perfect, but it’s very easy and does good enough to hold minute of milk jug for me out to 500. I am a canter. Getting a level bubble attached to my scope helps me be accurate and allows consistency with my turret and hash marks. The only time I target shoot per se is the local dynamite shoots where we are shooting pop cans full of dynamite at 400-600 yards for the “Hunter” class. I’ve won that a few times so that’s all I need.
Thanks again for the help and input.
Todd
Last edited by Justahunter; 09/01/20.
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It never made sense to me to hang the scope level with the rifle. Rarely the most natural hold has the rifle sitting perfectly level. Don’t believe me? With a scope perfectly level to the action, close you eyes, grip the rifle as comfortably as you can, open your eyes and move the cross hairs to something plumb without disturbing what is the most natural hold. You may find the results startling!
I may be in the vast minority when it comes to this method, but it works for me.
Hang a plumb down range, get into your most natural position, move the cross hairs on and off the plumb, clock the scope so that the vertical post is parallel to the plumb. Tighten the scope down. If you have level on the scope, you can adjust the level to level when the vertical post is parallel with the plumb. This takes a bit more screwing around but it’s worth the trouble imo. Keeps the rifle in its most natural hold rather than “ fighting the rifle “ Ymmv
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It never made sense to me to hang the scope level with the rifle. Rarely the most natural hold has the rifle sitting perfectly level. Don’t believe me? With a scope perfectly level to the action, close you eyes, grip the rifle as comfortably as you can, open your eyes and move the cross hairs to something plumb without disturbing what is the most natural hold. You may find the results startling!
I may be in the vast minority when it comes to this method, but it works for me.
Hang a plumb down range, get into your most natural position, move the cross hairs on and off the plumb, clock the scope so that the vertical post is parallel to the plumb. Tighten the scope down. If you have level on the scope, you can adjust the level to level when the vertical post is parallel with the plumb. This takes a bit more screwing around but it’s worth the trouble imo. Keeps the rifle in its most natural hold rather than “ fighting the rifle “ Ymmv
Looks like this is well covered
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Throw in my astigmatism, and all the vertical crosshairs seem curved to me. It’s a wonder I hit anything past 50 yards...but I do try to level them the best I can.
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Drink a tall glass of Crown Royal.
Allow time to cure your vision.
Eyeball the scope and tighten rings.
The whiskey eye never lies.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Drink a tall glass of Crown Royal.
Allow time to cure your vision.
Eyeball the scope and tighten rings.
The whiskey eye never lies. Imagine what real whiskey would do.
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Drink a tall glass of Crown Royal.
Allow time to cure your vision.
Eyeball the scope and tighten rings.
The whiskey eye never lies. Imagine what real whiskey would do. Yeah but CR comes with a free sandbag.
Faith and love of others knows no mileage nor bounds. That's simply the way it is. dogzapper
After the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box. Italian Proverb
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Campfire Kahuna
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Have told this story before, but will again: The late, great fishing/hunting/shooting writer Charles F. Waterman (known, of course, as Charlie, since he was not a formal sort of guy) competed nationally in handgun target shooting, back when the major deal was shooting one-handed with a revolver.
He developed such bad nerves before a major match that he eventually consulted his physician--who advised imbibing a little alcohol before a match. (This was a LONG time ago.) Charlie did not drink much, and then very occasionally, but tolerated brandy. With some experimentation he and his wife Debie found that drinking X ounces of Christian Brothers brandy exactly half an hour before a match did the trick. But not long after the shooting Charlie was pretty drunk.
At one big match, an hour after he shot the loudspeaker announced: "Would Charles Waterman please come to the scorer's tent?" It took both Debie (not very big) and a couple of male friends to support Charlie enough to get there, and all were pretty nervous.
Once there, the head scorer told Charlie that he'd just set a national record. Whereupon Charlie kind of grunted.
Then the scorer asked what team he shot for.
Debie firmly announced "Christian Brothers!"
And they then led Charlie away....
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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That is a great story! Thanks for sharing that!
Todd
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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An approximation of an anecdote from Littlewood's Miscellany:
I'll have a neat brandy.
Don't you know brandy destroys the coats of the stomach?
Well the old boy will have to go in his shirtsleeves then.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Have told this story before, but will again: The late, great fishing/hunting/shooting writer Charles F. Waterman (known, of course, as Charlie, since he was not a formal sort of guy) competed nationally in handgun target shooting, back when the major deal was shooting one-handed with a revolver.
He developed such bad nerves before a major match that he eventually consulted his physician--who advised imbibing a little alcohol before a match. (This was a LONG time ago.) Charlie did not drink much, and then very occasionally, but tolerated brandy. With some experimentation he and his wife Debie found that drinking X ounces of Christian Brothers brandy exactly half an hour before a match did the trick. But not long after the shooting Charlie was pretty drunk.
At one big match, an hour after he shot the loudspeaker announced: "Would Charles Waterman please come to the scorer's tent?" It took both Debie (not very big) and a couple of male friends to support Charlie enough to get there, and all were pretty nervous.
Once there, the head scorer told Charlie that he'd just set a national record. Whereupon Charlie kind of grunted.
Then the scorer asked what team he shot for.
Debie firmly announced "Christian Brothers!"
And they then led Charlie away....
Great story. A friend, who used to shoot in high dollar live pigeon matches years ago, liked Inderal, an older beta blocker, to calm his nerves before a shoot. I think that kinda stuff is outlawed in the Olympics. JB, I agree that the Reticle-Tru is the easiest to use, simplist reticle device ever. Jerry sent me one early on to test and write my observations. Here's a link. https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/6632100/1DF
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pass the reticle tru, and hold the fluff...... This ^^^^^ The Reticle-Tru is far more effective than any of the devices using a bubble, or that assume any flat part of a scope is actually square to the reticle, or requires the rifle to be level. Instead, it aligns the reticle with the center of the rifle's action. That said, a LOT of shooters see any reticle as being "crooked" because they don't hold rifles level. I have known quite a few shooters who consistently mount scopes at a certain angle, because the scopes then appear level to them when aiming. One of these was a very experienced hunter and competitive shooter, who knew exactly what he was doing. Another, however, did not--until he actually looked through a perfectly squared scope on another person's rifle, and declared it was "crooked." Saw this again in a local gun shop just yesterday. A guy had brought a new rifle and scope to the shop's gunsmithing department to have the scope mounted, and came in to pick it up. When he shouldered the rifle and looked through the scope, he declared it was crooked. However, his son (who looked to be in his late teens) also shouldered the rifle and said it looked level to him. The difference was the father was pretty "stout,"and the son was not. Consequently the father's stout shoulder tended to tilt the rifle when he aimed through the scope. I could even see this plainly from across the room. The gunsmith had seen this many times, but instead of trying to tell the father he was FOS, said: "It's your rifle, and you're going to be shooting it. I'm happy to make it feel right for you." Which of course involved mounting the scope "crooked." True, I caught this in myself looking (aiming? ) into a mirror and could see the cant in the rifle, worked at it and broke the habit.
Ed
A person who asks a question is a fool for 5 minutes the person who never asks is a fool forever.
The worst slaves are those that put the chains on themselves.
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