John,

Not really sure how to ask without sounding like a doofus, but i'll try!

If TTSX and LRX bullets are so much better (I believe they are) than the non tipped versions, why bother making the non tipped versions? It seems to make sense to me that tipped versions outsell non tipped versions by a wide margin! I'm sure they still sell quite a few, but at some point do you think they will be phased out?

Thanks for your response in advance!

Elk Country

I suspect part of it may be short magazine boxes in some rifles. The plain TSXs will often fit in shorter boxes, while still providing plenty of bullet shank to be held by the case neck.

I also thought maybe the plain TSXs might be a little less expensive, which would appeal to some hunters, but just checked a website I order from often, and usually the tipped and non-tipped versions of the same caliber/weight are the same price. And with one popular weight in .30 caliber, the Tipped TSX is actually a dollar less per 50-bullet box!

Maybe Sierra will make them all with green tips now!

Sierra would do well to leave the design stuff to Barnes folk....

Directly from the Barnes website:




I'm not paying extra for nor spending the time to work up new loads just to have plastic tips that don't add enough BC in the same bullet weight to make a difference. Leave "my" bullets alone please. 85/243, 100/257, 140/277, 120/284, 200/308, 270/375.

Some shooters remove the tips in order for the rounds to fit in short mag boxes.

Being "slightly OCD" (:)) I like the "idea" of the front part of the TTSX having a bigger hole and a tip that helps expansion. I also like the "idea" of the LRX TTSX having slightly softer petals, again, insuring positive expansion. Now, I have "heard" of the older Barnes X to TTSX failing, but have never experienced but "2" times, both still ended with dead critters. First was a Black Hawaiian ram I shot in Texas, maybe 40 yds with a "new" 100gr TSX from a 257 Wby. It hit "sideways". This can happen with any long bullet up close, it was still in the "slight yaw". (Think of watching the Tomahawk launch from a warship, very exaggerated "yaw" but you get the picture) it still screwed him up, ha. 2nd time was an 85gr XBT going 2700 from a wildcat 6x47mm (222 mag/6mm) on two jack rabbits inside of 30 yds or closer. They zipped through w/o any apparent expansion. The same bullet worked swell on 2 Axis and an Oryx! So yes I like the tips, push them fast, and have a ball! I've shot many Plains Game, a couple cow elk, seen many more shot by others using Barnes, all went well. I dare say anything man-made is subject to failure.

The 25 caliber 100gr TSX seems to be the most problematic bullet Barnes made.

I've heard that too B- I'm sure its difficult to make a small caliber bullet open right at different speeds, etc. I haven't lived/hunted Texas for awhile, but "it used to be" the 25-06 and especially the 257 Wby were very popular. Flat shooters yet "didn't tear a deer up like the 7mm Mag", heard that alot, ha.

As I pointed out, TTSXs do NOT cost "extra.." But you're right about BC; the plastic tip doesn't enhance it much.

What it does do is enhance expansion. I have a lot of personal experience with various versions of the Barnes X, and also get plenty of field reports from hunters. Have seen and heard about quite a few TSXs that failed to open, all in calibers from 6mm to .30. Have only had one report about a TTSX that didn't open--it was recovered with the tip bent sideways..

i was told Sierra bullet company is buying Barnes bullets,if that is true maybe Sierra bullets will be changing a few things on Barnes bullets in the future ?

I cannot resist this, so..

How can you tell if a TSX expands when it shoots through most critters up to and including Nilgai , elk, Red Stag, etc?

Not saying TSX always expands, just that I can never recover one from my .405 WCF . Sort of like NF bullets from the .405, most shoot through. Also, who cares if the critter dos a Bang Flop? Lots of hard cast loads do not expand, yet kill well.

Nosler makes a .308" 180-grain protected-point Partition for the same reason. It's a bit shorter than the standard 180P and the BC is bit lower, but it's the same idea for the same reason.

Allen Day used to swear by them in his 300 WM.


Okie John

OJ,
The .458 PP 300 work like a charm from my .45-90 on deer and such in the USA and on Leopard and other thin skinned African game. In the US they were factory Winchester 300 grain PP and in Africa at 2200 fps handloads with .45-90 brass. Great Bullets IMHO.

There are two ways you can tell TSXs didn't expand, both involving animals that go quite a ways. If the bullet exits, it leaves a very thin blood trail, if any, and a very tiny hole through the lungs--without the surrounding tissue damage of an expanded bullet (or a flat-nose solid, whether hard-cast or whatever).

The other way is to find the bullet. A friend found two 140-grain .270 TSXs in an eland he shot, one not expanded at all, and the only barely--about enough for the petal diameter to almost equal the bullet diameter. That involved a very long tracking job.

He goes to Africa just about every year for an extended cull hunt, and after switching to TTSXs has never had anything like that happen.

Thank you and all you said makes sense.

When and If one does not shoot through, I will keep all in mind.
Last . 405/TSX Nilgai chest organs were a mess and bullet gone into the underbrush.

Only Eland shot with one of my rifles was a 2000 pound bull that just sank to its knees dead. Seems the .338 Mag Winchester 230 grain bullet just put it to sleep and exited on the off side.

The Winchester 230 Fail Safe? If so, that was a great bullet. Killed a big Alaska bull pretty promptly with one.

Something else I hinted at in above post is the non-expansion problems I seen and heard about occurred from 6mm to .30 caliber, not with larger calibers--or .224s.

One theory about why that happens is the hollow-point of TSXs under .30 is pretty small, and may get pounded shut when recoil slams the tip[ against the front of the magazine box--and lack of recoil may be why it also doesn't occur with .22-caliber bullets.

TSXs over .30 have much larger hollow-points.

JB, that might be on the 2nd and thereafter shots but wouldn't the bullet in the chambered round be unaffected? That bullet was never slammed into the front of the mag box.

I agree. I haven't been able to get any kind of accuracy from my .257 Bob Featherweight with that bullet.

On the other hand, the 225 gr. TSX has been one hell of an elk slayer in my .35 Whelen.
Paul B.

Not necessarily. It may have been in the magazine previously, when other rounds were fired.

That's possible, I suppose but I never load up with rounds with dinged tips. Those get shot up when it doesn't matter if they are a little off in POI or otherwise.

I doubt you'd notice the slight amount of flattening that could prevent one from opening. The hollow-point is pretty tiny on the smaller TSX's--and I would guess the tip wouldn't have to be totally closed.

That's very true.
I had a web site 20+ years back where I posted Q&A and I did the responses though I had a lot of chatter about that bullet caliber and weight even back then.( though they were "X" bullets back then) I got a response from Dan Petersen, whom I didn't know back then and he had seen the same thing commenting to the point that I pulled some off my bench and went right over then to determine that there was caliber variance in between boxes, mostly undersized, so accuracy could be affected by that symptom alone in some barrels as obturation would be a variable. There was also a transition period where the first X bullets had bumps and dents on them and the open points were very thick suggesting more weight up front in comparison with other bullet designs. Can't say that mattered for accuracy but it likely did contribute to the calls of no expansion back in those days, though I never experienced it myself that I am aware of. Everything I shot died and the bullets are still orbiting for all I know. .

I concur with this

I watched a guy shoot a bull elk 3 times at 25 yards with a 25-06 and 100 grain Barnes. Not a single bullet expanded. My son shot the same bull with a 180 of another make (Fail safe)which was devastating. All the 100s penciled thru

"Everything I shot died and the bullets are still orbiting for all I know."

This is true of the Barnes, Punch, NF, Woodleigh bullets and some others. I shoot to kill game and not to find spent bullets and complain about them.

I don't doubt the experiences others have posted but I have killed at least a dozen deer and pronghorn with the 100 TSX in my 257 Roberts at around 3100 FPS and had nothing but the best performance. Never recovered a bullet and lots of DRTs. Never lost a critter I shot with that load.

I have had good success with the 25 caliber 100gr. tsx in multiple 257 Weatherbys on elk and deer . Usually 1 shot and dead , but the bullets never stay in the animal. I will continue to use them.

The only Barnes bullet that I used that seemed to have minimal expansion, out of a 257 WBY no less. The TTSX in the same round proved far more devastating. When I shoot a Barnes now, it is a TTSX, even for elk.

Which is exactly why Eileen and I have stayed with the 100 TTSX since it appeared. The difference in performance on animals from antelope to elk was obvious.

I am in the process of switching from the 100 gr. TSX to the 100 TTSX in my .257 Roberts. I was hoping to do this without going through a new load work up. For those of you that have made the change was a new load necessary? TIA.

Not with any of our rifles, but it would depend somewhat on magazine length--which might require the TTSX being seated a little deeper, and might not.

I switched from the TSX to the TTSX in a 257 WBY, COL was different and I did work up powder wise, but powder charge remained the same.

I would bet the COL would be different because of a different ogive and polymer tip on the TTSX.

My first outing with the 257WM was in '09, shooting speed goats with the TSX. Actually had them running off or no reaction after a broadside, behind the shoulder shot. Had never had that happen. When I commented on here after returning, you actually mentioned that the smaller caliber TSX's may experience lack of expansion problems. You suggested the TTSX, and it has worked like a charm on antelope, deer, hogs and elk. The difference is very obvious in the quarter bores.

It's for A Ruger No.1 so magazine length will not be an issue although I know I'll have to check for seating length.

hws, In my Vanguard 257 Weatherby, switching from the Barnes 100gr TSX to the TTSX, straight across, resulted in higher than expected velocity, a stiff bolt lift, primer cratering, & an ejector mark on the case head. I had to reduce my load by 1.5gr to even things out. I didn't expect the higher pressure w/ the TTSX; I thought it would be an even swap. Not in my case. Good Luck, -Mark

My expiereance was with a 25-06AI. I now use the 100gr TTSX and it's been flawess.

I have used the 115gr TSX in my 25-06 with good results on deer.

The first deer I ever deliberately high shoulder shot was a WT buck at 40 yds. He just tipped over with straight legs and his front legs shivered for a second. Great internal damage from that TSX and the best part was no blood shot meat, eat right up to the hole.

I chose that shot because he only needed about two steps to get back onto property that was closed to me for hunting.

I have read at least one negative report on the campfire regarding the 80 grain TSX in the 257 Weatherby. I can't find the report but it was a culling trip in Australia so the number of animals was significant 3-400 if I recall correctly. But the disdain for the 80 TSX was across the board not a single incident.

For my own use I went directly to the TTSX, E-Tip and 110 Sirocco II, I doubt I will have issues with any of them in the Weatherby and 25-06. I am also hoping to test the Lehigh 85s and 100 grain bullets on game.

I’ve switched between tsx and TTSX in a few rifles and nothing has ever changes as far as I could tell... 180’s in 300 win, WSM and weatherby. 150’s and 168 in 308& 30/06 and 140’s in 7/08.... same group size, velocities and poi.... but I’ve always used the same “ jump” to the lands..... Mark, I’m curious, did you use the same OAL with the TTSX as the TSX or did you use the same amount of “jump” with them ?

Thx, Ben

Also, out of probably close to 55-60 head of game I’ve either shot or seen shot with TSX bullets from 7mm, 308, 8mm and 338 from bobcats to coyotes to zebra and eland I’ve never seen evidence of one not opening up or killing very well. But I do admit that in milder cartridges or sub 7mm I have started loading TTSX mostly due to reading reports from the campfire about smaller calibers not working as well as 30’s and over TSX.

Ben

I have only recovered TSX bullets from two critters, one was a Nilgai Bull. This bullet was under the hide on the far side, at a range a bit over 200 yard shot. It did indeed expand. Result was a DRT.

I suspect that some of the pencilling through reports were from the early days when Barnes had supplier problems and the copper wire varied. I also suspect some reports are from guys that just look at the entrance and exit holes and say yep it penciled through and then take the whole animal to the process-er. No doubt it has happened as any hollow point can get plugged with fat, gristle or what ever and not open up, it has just not happened to me that I know with many head of game taken with the Barnes.

Tejano,
I agree with all you said. The copper supply inconsistencies and the entrance and exit holes without looking inside. Hell sometimes on moose, under the hide on the exit gives a different perspective than the hole in the hide. And the body cavity view definitely does.

I also wonder, what effect taking a bullet out of you pocket or bottom on the pack and chambering it. Many times, I find the hollow points filled with debris. Sometimes packed Very tightly. I always check if the round has been carried other than in the chamber.

The bullet paths that I have viewed on moose so far, have removed any doubt if they was expansion and damage inside. Regardless on the exit size in the hide. This is with 338, 375, 416 bullets. I have yet to see a large exit hole in the hide.

I did shoot a coyote at about 40 yds with a 338 Winchester and 225 TSX that hit back bone just rear of the shoulders that was a different story. Basically travel down the back bone, opened the body cavity from the top side like ripping open a cheap paper sack, and flinging chunks of coyote back strap 4’ into a spruce tree.

————————————-

I have had supposedly experienced hunters assume Nosler Partitions didn't expand, because the exit hole was relatively small.

Have asked more than one of them how far the animals went before falling over, and if they personally field-dressed the animal. The latest was a guy who shot a good-sized mule deer buck he shot with a .300 Winchester Magnum and a 180 Partition at relatively close range. He said the buck went about 30 yards before falling, and yes he did field-dress it himself.

I then asked if there was a big hole through both lungs. He said yes, so I told him the bullet obviously expanded. He did not believe me.

There are all sorts of experts out there.

You can only lead them to water.

I had a so called guide recently tell me that a 220 grain spire point was the best load for the 7mm RM he thought 7mm = 308". I would definitely not want to be around when he touched off his "special" loads. This guy went to college too.

There's an entire chapter on "Guides and Guns" in GUN GACK III--which includes some stuff like that.

That's because many guides aren't really very well-versed in the differences between various bullets. Some are, such a Phil Shoemaker, who knows bullet construction (shall we say) inside and out. But many are comparative amateurs.They may be good at finding game, but not very good at analyzing bullet performance.

I think I need to get GGK III I am already living it, just need professional affirmation.