I just acquired a 300 Weatherby or more correctly bought a 300 Wby barrel for my 458 Lott Mauser M03. As you may know the M03 is going out of production so the Australian distributors were having a runout sale and the barrel was half price! I've always read that the famous Weatherby double radius shoulders didn't really do anything much, just marketing hype but didn't do anything bad either - so I thought.

I've been reading Pierre van de Walt's "African Dangerous Game cartridges" and he says that you need to anneal Weatherby brass each firing or the brass will be short lived (and they are expensive) and that this is due to the double radius shoulder.

What is the opinion here? Does the double radius cause a weakness in the shoulder/neck area compared to a straight angled shoulder? Or is it just handloaders chasing Weatherby velocities and the shoulder makes no difference?

regards
JohnT

I'll tell you what an engineer at RCBS told me about that about a gazillion years ago. At the time I was playing with a .240 Wby and having a lot of fun burning up the barrel. And I too noticed that I was getting neck splits right at the upper radius. So I too started annealing (something I hate to do) and I got something much more normal from my brass.

Well about a year later, I went up to RCBS for who knows what now, and I talked to one of the engineers. He said the double radius causes the brass to flow less gracefully during forming and that they get a little work hardened right from the factory. Well, that's what he said. Sounds plausible to me, but my recollection tells me that case neck annealing is part of the manufacturing process. So if the cases were work hardened at the neck, it should have been annealed out. But take this all with a grain of salt, I don't trust my memory all that much these days.

It's been nearly 40 years now since I've reloaded for a Weatherby round (340 WBY) but, IIRC, as long as i set the sizing die to headspace off the shoulder that I had no issues with split cases.

I do the same thing Mickey. Never have had any issues with loading the 300wby cartridge after nearly 26 years of handloading...

I have been loading the 257 Wby for 6 years with no problems neck sizing through at least 4 loadings per case with no annealing yet.
GreggH

I only have a 257 Bee and I don't think the shoulder radius would cause work hardening any sooner than other shoulder angle configurations. I think that some of the gun lore is due to the fact that people really stomp on the loading of the Weatherby cartridges trying to equal or exceed factory velocities. The factory velocities are derived by being right at 65,000 psi, a pressure level where brass will start to move easily. I think the double radius is no better or worse than an angular neck shoulder configuration. Loading other cartridges like the 270 WSM to 63,000+ psi any number of things become more critical.

Not sure what the actual shoulder angle is but it appears to be around 30 degrees which has proven to be a good design for target cartridges to produce more even pressures.

Another thing I suspect but have no basis for is that die manufacturers may have different tolerances on the shoulder and radius, even though they are SAAMI specked cartridges.

This could be due to the brass composition itself more than the shape of the shoulder. Norma brass which was the exclusive supplier of Weatherby brass for a number of years has varied from being quite soft to being comparable to other brass. The era of the soft brass could have generated the need for annealing advice. Me I will anneal every three to five loadings and see how it goes. There is no down side to doing it every loading other than the time factor.

I've loaded a bunch of Weatherby cartridges and based on my experience that sounds like a load of BS.

What Mathman said. Load WBY and RP .300 Roy brass as many as a dozen times, minimal shoulder bump. Never annealed.

If anything, get longer life from both my M700 .300 Roys than from any .300 Win I've owned. Has zip to do with the radius shoulder, and everything to do with the blessing of pretty snug factory chambers.

I have loaded for and used extensively over several decades five Weatherby calibers in many rifles. As others here have said, I get longer brass life than most other cartridges, especially the .300 Win Mag.

I am also dubious about claims that the double radius shoulder gets credit. More likely better barrel specs and minimal case taper. I have never annealed a Weatherby case.

I've loaded appx 1500 rounds of 240, 257 and 270 Weatherby and have never once annealed, nor had a case split. I normally get 8-10 firings out of a case at which point the primer pockets start to go.

I’ve been loading .300 and 7mm Roy’s for years. I have never used anything by Weatherby brass and just use the neck sizing die for practice rounds and full length size or new cases for hunting. Some of my 7mm Weatherby cases have over 10 firings and never had a case neck split or head separation. Not so with 7mm Rem Mag cases. BS...

Some target shooters anneal at each loading but with a hunting cartridge and rifle this is a waste of time. Like others I would see case neck splits at around 10-12 loads on the 7RM and 300 WM. This doesn't happen if I anneal before I hit the fifth load. Average brass I toss after a dozen loads but the better Brass will get a third annealing and may go 20 times for Lapua and especially RWS brass. I have not loaded the 257WM enough to have an opinion but I think I will use the same routine as the brass is so expensive. I formed several 264 PPU with poor results and I will probably anneal the next batch I try prior to forming.

I've been loading Weatherby cartridges with Norma (Weatherby) brass for over 30 years. Can't seem to remember this as an issue. If anything, it was loose primer pockets after about five (?) or so firings.

That's been my experience as well, but within the past 20 years haven't encountered many loose primer pockets either with Weatherby (Norma) brass. And I've loaded for the .240, .257, 6.5-.300, .270, 7mm, .300 and .340 Weatherby Magnums.

Same experience with 240 and 257 weatherby, but only about 500 rounds.

Well, I would say--based on the evidence of a LOT of Campfire members, that Pierre van de Walt is FOS on this subject. Or maybe he just doesn't know the basics of resizing brass.

Which makes me wonder about his other knowledge.

Interesting thread here. I have no idea concerning double radius shoulders and weakness in the neck / shoulder area. I pretty much use neck sizing only on my 257 Wby and the brass seems to last a long time. Gotta start keeping better track of the number of reloadings. The double radius design was supposed to promote better gas flow or something like that. Probably just a marketing ploy but who knows for sure. I bet lots of folks, including me, see a double radius shoulder and it just screams " high velocity, high performance" . That's the way old Roy wanted it and it worked on me. It's sort of a unique marketing concept and Roy knew how to market stuff.

I vote FOS. I have had a few loose primer pockets on a few cases cycled many times working up loads, some of which were obviously a bit warm with physical pressure signs along the way. Norma/Weatherby brass is top shelf. I don’t bother with other brands. Some of the Nosler branded cases were made by Norma. Happy Trails

I’ve never had a Weatherby case split. I have 257’s and 300’s.

The advantage of the internet is that you no longer have to rely on "one man's opinion" so you can either "shop" for the opinion that matches yours or the collective of opinions that make you more comfortable with your own observations. Emphasis being, that direct observations are of greater importance that someone else's opinion which cannot be as easily qualified as based on experience.

I have something around 45 years experience loading for Weatherby rifles and cartridges and in Oz, that meant more experience that all the writers combined. I have never had or seen nor heard of a split neck on double radius shoulders. That doesn't mean I am I right in my opinion, it does however, mean that my statement of personal observation is entirely correct.

The Readers Digest version is that I do not agree with your source.

Looks like the double radius shoulder causing short case life myth has been debunked.

On the flip side, I've often wondered the reason for the double radius shoulder in the first place. Is it a derivative of compressible gas dynamic theory (jet/rocket science) that says subsonic gas flow is more efficient over smooth edges? The idea being a bottle neck rifle cartridge is analogous to the converging/diverging nozzle of a jet/rocket engine where gas flow is subsonic in front of the nozzle and supersonic downstream of the nozzle. Of course this analogy breaks down for straight wall cartridges.

Any campfire historians out there know the real inspiration for the Weatherby double radius shoulder? Serious question. I can't imagine RW coming up with the idea out of thin air, but who knows, maybe he did.

I have noticed loose primer pockets, ejector marks, etc with Weatherby factory ammo. Most of it silver box and earlier.
Never had an issue with split necks.

I fully expect it was derived the same way the foreend tip of contrasting wood was envisioned. Weatherby was a doodler when talking on the phone. He always had a pen and pad and scribbled stock designs during his phone calls. I would not be surprised if he simply scribbled the radius design during a phone call one day and then followed up on the concept for no other reason than exploring a potential marketing concept.

Don't forget this was the same era that Keith was writing about duplex reloading which is said to have confused the German's during an active war who read, followed and blew themselves up whereas Keith was actually threading internal primer tubes into his cases to theoretically permit the primer spark to move forward into the case before ignition so that powder burned forward and backwards to the case head. His term "Duplex", was incorrect technically, but he was famous enough that he would write and it would be printed. What this means is there was poetic license in the gun trade back then where as today's market is far more savvy.

The radius-ed shoulder was developed in the 1940s in Germany and the US simultaneously. The PMVF, Powell Miller Ventrified freebore became the CCC cartridges Controlled Combustion Chambering. Vom Hoffe and the German military experimented with a couple of variations. Powell and Miller I think were first in Ventura California and then moved shop to Hollywood, I believe they became the Hollywood gun shop that made dies and presses as well as custom rifles.

Roy Weatherby was no doubt influenced by their work, in the 1950s he developed the double radius shoulder, the early ones had been single radius but had radius-ed the neck and shoulder but not both. PMVF and CCC gave Roy the idea for free boring the chamber as well. The double radius allowed Weatherby to patent and trade mark the design.

They claimed to believe that the radius acts as a venturi tube to accelerate gas flow. It was also a marketing feature and made it more difficult to copy by other gun smiths before it was patented. Testing has proved this not to be true but has shown the shoulder angle of around 30 deg. to produce more uniform pressures which is signifigant when running near maximum pressure.

CCC 30-06 Imp. http://www.cartridgecollector.net/30-06-ccc

Here is an old thread on the topic where I made the same points: https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/3571724/1

Roy used the "Powell- Miller Venturi Freebore" theory to design his cases and chambers. My meager understanding is smoother gas flow starting the bullet and more acceleration with the long 3/4 inch freebore section before engaging the rifleing. With a faster bullet there is less of a pressure spike upon engraving the bullet. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Right or wrong. JM

Thank you all for sharing your personal experiences. Excellent news that it's a non issue.

We pay $170 for 50 Norma unprimed cases downunder and consider ourselves lucky to get it and that's the old "discounted" price!!!

Regards
JohnT

Well there you go. Thanks DB for the info. Makes a lot of sense.

DBoston,

P.O. Ackley also claimed to have encouraged Weatherby to use longer "freebore". No doubt there were lots of influences--all (as was typical of the time period) concentrating on getting the absolute top muzzle velocity.

But the powders back then were also more limiting. IMR4350 was by far the slowest-burning rifle powder when it was introduced in 1940--and made the Weatherby rounds possible. (Actually, in a bit of trivia, it actually appeared in 1939--but wasn't distributed to the public until 1940. But in '39 you could drive to the DuPont factory and buy it. Don't think any powder company offers that option today for handloaders.)

Of course, after WWII handloaders could buy "war surplus" 4831, which was slower yet.

The only Weatherby I’ve had experience with is the 257. I noted that brass only grew by .004” on the first firing. ( rom to shoulder). I thought this pretty good.

The Winchester and Remington belted mags would grow up to .020” on the first firing. Not so great for case life.

I seem to recall that Weatherby rounds headspace on the shoulder rather than the belt ( correct me of on wrong) . A definite plus for case life.

JB & all, I love the gun trivia. If only Jeopardy had a category for gun geeks and my memory worked faster I could possibly win a new Tesla, or better yet a .256 Newton. I always thought of the 257 Bee as a Californicator round until I got one, now I really like it and appreciate the history too. It is a classic.