Are .30-06 factory loads lower pressure since it is chambered in a lot of older rifles? Can handloads be "warmer" in modern rifles? Of course not to exceed book numbers.......

They probably are at least to some degree. It just occurred to me that I don't think I have ever fired a factory loaded 30-06 except some M2 ball.

I’ve never fired a factory load in any of mine. I load 59 grains of IMR 4350, the book max with a 150 Partition.

Generally most (not all) factory 30-06 loads will give 308 Win type velocities. If yours is a modern commercial bolt action it can be loaded hotter than typical factory loads.

I rarely shoot factory loads in anything...but that damn Federal Blue Box is plenty good enough for me...underloaded or not. .308 and .30-06. Accurate as hell, good bullets, good brass..my chrono velocity numbers are very close to their advertised velocity, I would consider it for an expensive hunt...if it is underloaded I don't see where it would spell failure on a real hunt.

Over the years I chorno'd ammo for friends who had 06s.

WW & Fed were fairly close to ad. vel.

Without Exception, Remington factory loads were ALWAYS slower.


Jerry

Yes. Its underloaded by 100 fps. Always has been

We chrono'd some 130 gr. Rem. core-lokt .270's last year. Average velocity was 2796 fps. With an extreme spread of 184 fps. for 5 shots.

I've been shooting 150 gr. Fusions in mine. They chrono as advertised and give sub MOA accuracy out of my 22" barreled M77 Hawkeye.

I chronographed some 180 grain TTSX Vortex in my 35 Whelen with a claimed velocity of 2900, they clocked 2900 FPS
Also clocked some 200 grain Hornaday Superformance and the claimed 2910 FPS I clocked 3026 FPS
35 Whelen is an 1885 Highwal 28" barrel

Also some 289 Rem Vortex 140 TTSX in my 280 and clocked 3026 FPS. 280 is a Baretta Mato 24" barrel

[quote=Blackheart][quote=jwall]Over the years I chorno'd ammo for friends who had 06s.

WW & Fed were fairly close to ad. vel.

Without Exception, Remington factory loads were ALWAYS slower.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


We chrono'd some 130 gr. Rem. core-lokt .270's last year. Average velocity was 2796 fps. With an extreme spread of 184 fps. for 5 shots.
------------------------------------------------


YEP.... 2800 and Advertised at What ?


Jerry

Just finished trying out Norma's new factory 'Van Damme Movie' round, aka the 180 gr. Bondstrike Extreme. It's POI is the same as my 57 gr. H4350 handload.

Just for S&G I might use it on cow elk this season...

SAAMI MAP for .30’06 is 60k Psi , same as .280 Rem .
Seems anemic when compared to ..270 Win with MAP at 65k Psi

Maybe new Remington loads will be closer to spec ?

And the 280 was always downloaded due to being a semi automatic load

The 7mm Express was supposed to fix that in sturdy bolt actions, but of course it didn’t / couldn’t

Check out the loads for a 280 in the Nosler manual #4, impressive!

Loaded to 270 pressure the 280 moves out

60k PSI... is.

You can handload'em to 65k, same as the factory .270 Win., but the game won't taste any different.




GR

Anyone Know what pressure the Nosler loads in #4 are at ?

For 140 grain bullets in the 280 use 270 130 grain data inorder to reach 270 pressure

Advertised at 3060. Only off by 264 fps. with 184 fps spread. Good stuff ! LOL

Those rifles were also chambered in 270
?????????????
Makes you wonder if all Remington loads were neutered for the sake of their auto loader........

The Remington 742 semi auto was never chambered in 270 and that is the rifle the 280 was introduced in

I sure know using H 4831SC, you can dramatically exceed posted load book velocities, especially with heavier bullets...

and I am no Semi Auto type hunter....

A few years back I compared Winchester 180 gr. Powerpoint ammo in .308 Win. and 30-06. Rifles were a Winchester M70 Youth Ranger .308 I restocked to fit me and a Remington M700 in 30-06. Both rifles had 22" barrels The .308 did something like 2620 FPS IIRC and the 30-06 2610 FPS. The only time the 30-06 came even close to the 2700 FPS advertised was from the 26" barreled Ruger #1. I've Hornady 180 gr. spire points up to 2800 FPS i that Remington with no signs of pressure.
Paul B.

As my friend JWall said the 270 was never chambered in the model 740 or 742. Big Green couldn't make it work. Hence the lower pressure 280

Yes, they're loaded to 1903 safe pressures. Your handloads can be as warm as you want in any rifle you want - just depends how much excitement you want You would be hard pressed to find any rifle action made today that will hold a .30-06 that isn't also used with 65KPSI magnum type cartridges and the 65KPSI .270win. Reloading manuals will generally NOT tell you how to make such a load in .30-06, but in a modern rifle I personally would have no problem with it. QuickLoad or GRT and load-to-velocity will get you there no problem.

That may be the most recent commercial rifle too [bleep] for the .270. Other than I guess some oddball doubles.

JWP, NOT being a semi auto fan NOR user... I thot the 742 was chambered in
270 ‘since’ the 06 was, HOWEVER I ‘goggled’ Rem 742 in 270....

You are RIGHT.... for once.


Jerry

I think nearly all factory loads are under powered, with the possible exception to .40 S&W.....

I don't find that to be the case

Some of this has to do with chamber dimensions, and more to do with the fact that most factory loads a loaded with temp-sensitive powder. They've got to keep under SAAMI max pressure in the heat in the smallest possible chamber. It's unlikely your chamber is as small or as hot.

With temp insensitive powder and loading for your own rifle, you should be able to exceed any factory ammo without going over max pressue.

180 gr. Cor-lokts out of 20" - 21.5" barrels seem to do fine on the stuff I shoot



+/- 35 Paces



+/- 175 paces

ya!

GWB

IMO I think the 10 MM Factory ammo is/was loaded to its potential.

Many pistols would not stand up to the 10mm ammo.

Jerry

I chroned my 280 Rem with Vortex 140 grain factory loade TTSX at a claimed 2980 FPS and the Olher 35 recorded 3025 FPS

Some factory loads are below claimed velocity but many are right on are above. It just depends

It especially depends on the rifle....

JW

I know and accept that some have chrono'd some factory ammo at higher than adv. vel.

I never did 'back then'. I also have never clocked ammo other than Rem, Win, Fed & *PRVI* (privi) grin.

If you want to talk Walking Speed....PRVI 6,5X55, 140s = 2250 fps. I use the brass!


Jerry

By any measure you would have to say that is a crap factory load. I think the absolute worst 30-06 ammo I ever bought was some 150 gr. Remington CL bought on clearance from Walmart for $4.97 a box and I bought ten boxes of it. Your numbers for the 130 gr. 270 mirrored what I was getting with the 150 grain CL 30-06 ammo. I hunted with some of it and I just do not have the fondness for the lighter Corelokts many seem to have. So I thought Just pull the bullets and powder, replace with your preference. I had several duds from the factory primers and I found out why, in about 50% of them the primer pocket reamer didn't go 2/3rd the way to the bottom so when a primer was seated it crimped the bottom of the primer. I tossed all of those. In fact speaking of factory loads Remington Express is the bottom of the bucket. No center fire ammo has given me as many duds as Remington.

Now y'all know why I didn't buy Rem factory ammo on top of being a handloader.


Jerry

I’m betting Norma ammo will get darn close to what’s printed on the box….

It's not as bad now as it used to be, manufacturers have stopped underloading ammo as much now that personal chronographs are common and people can tell what they're doing. When I got my first chronograph about 20 years ago I'd have it set up when others came to shoot at my place. The velocities of factory ammo were pretty eye opening many times. I remember a 25-06 shooting 120 gr factory ammo that was about 450 fps slower than advertised. My cousin's 7mm rem mag was clocking about 2950 with 140 gr. federal premium ammo (advertised at 3200) when suddenly it started reading 2750 for several shots. It turned out that he had ran out of one box and opened another box from a different lot, supposedly the same ammo but 200 fps less velocity than the first box.

Today they've got better, most ammo gets reasonably close to advertised velocities. I guess they had a lot of irate customers when chronographs became common and people figured out their 150 gr. 30-06 loads were doing 2500 fps. A 150 gr bullet doing 2500 fps has certainly killed a lot of critters, but if I'd wanted a 30-30 I'd buy one.

Most factory ammo I have chrono’d were slower than advertised, regardless of cartridge, 270 ammo being the worst.

BUT, 2 years ago I bought a Remington 700 American Wilderness Rifle in 30-06, 24” barrel. I bought 2 boxes of Federal Premium ammo. 165 gr Nosler partition advertised velocity 2830 FPS and 165 gr Sierra Game King advertised velocity 2800 FPS.

I chrono’d the Partitions, they averaged 2917 FPS, with very low ES. The Gamekings averaged 2900 FPS.

I soon traded the rifle but was skeptical about the readings.
Fast forward to two months ago, I was shooting with some friends, one guy was shooting a 700 sps 30-06. Remembering I still had a partial box of the Partitions I went home and got them and we chrono’d them in his rifle over a different chrono than mine and averaged almost identical velocity

So I can say in this instance the ‘06 factory loads exceeded advertised velocities. As a side note I pulled one of the Partitions and it held 56 grains of powder.

A load can make exactly the velocity on the box and still be very slow. Accurate labeling doesn't mean hot.

I always look at factory ammo vs. what load data and simulation says is possible. Quick Load and GRT tend to understand the relationship between pressure and velocity well even when they're off on charge weight.

That's the truth. It chewed up Delta Elites.

I agree

You're right about that

A hand loader can always make hotter loads. But factory loads will dispatch any animal you hunt if you put the shot where it should be. Dead is dead.

Only the early Delta. It only cracked the small bridge in the frame gap. In the later models, Colt removed the bridge. Problem solved.

Also, the original loads exceed what modern loading manuals list today.

Yes, but likewise, if I want a slower load I would choose a different chambering. Also, if I want a chambering because of its full potential, then I expect that.

A major reason why I hand load for a bunch of cartridges is to realize its potential. The only reason why I don't hand load (yet) for my '06 is because it was purchased almost 50 years ago before I started reloading, then it found its way to the back of the safe. I plan on using it for an Elk hunt (hopefully) with hand loads if it comes to fruition.

PPU 6.5x55/139 gr. FMJ.

Disassembly is marksmanship training.

Reload w/ SPEER 140 gr. Grand Slams.




GR

PPU 6.5x55/139 gr. FMJ.

Disassembly is marksmanship training.

Reload w/ SPEER 140 gr. Grand Slams.

---------------------------------------------------------


A diff bullet will not ADD 600-700 fps.


Jerry

When I've used factory ammo I've never had a problem either hitting or killing with it. I've never chronographed it either because I thought it was to expensive to use for that. When I want premium loads I make them and use them thru on target testing and the chronograph before the hunt for no surprises. Factory ammo would be a damned expensive bad habit for me considering how much I like to shoot. I envy you guys with the big budget for shooting factory ammo but not your smarts for doing so. Way I see it. Mb

There have been some .30-06 factory loads that got quite a bit more than "standard" velocities. Over 20 years ago Federal had a "High Energy" load with the 180-grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw that they claimed got 2880 fps. This was apparently possible at SAAMI specs by using a heavily compressed load of well over 60 grains of a slower burning spherical powder. It worked great in my NULA .30-06, getting a little over 2900 fps and grouping a little under an inch. Essentially it was a .300 WSM, before the WSM appeared.

But other rifles could have some difficulty with it. A friend had another NULA, and bolt lifts were so stiff he didn't use the ammo in the field. Back then I also had an old FN Mauser sporter .30-06, which had a slightly shorter than average throat. In the FN the ammo blew primers--and got over 3000 fps from the 22" barrel! The guys at Federal very interested to hear this, and asked me to send them what remained of that box of ammo for testing. They reported it got "normal" pressures in their test barrel, around 58,000 PSI.

In my NULA most 180-grain factory ammo gets right around the standard 2700 fps velocity, but I suspect the 24" barrel has a tighter chamber and perhaps bore than most factory .30-06s. And of course many factory rifles have 22" barrels--or even shorter.

A few years ago three friends and I hunted elk on a ranch about 100 miles south of here. The rifle season had been open for a couple weeks, and consequently a lot of elk had had come onto the ranch from off the surrounding Forest Service land, and we all got decent 6-point bulls.

One of the guys used Federal .30-06 factory ammunition with 180-grain Partitions in a lightweight Weatherby Vanguard with a 20" barrel. I'd guess the muzzle velocity was around 2600 fps, but he never chronographed it. Instead he knew the trajectory out to 400 yards--and made the longest shot on the 4 bulls, around 360 if I recall correctly. The 180 Partition landed about 1/3 of the way up the chest behind the shoulder, and the bull ran about 40 yards before keeling over.

Bob

I don’t think it’s a waste of $ because you don’t have to shoot that many rounds of ammo to get an
IDEA of its speed.

You save $ knowing it’s vel. when figuring the
trajectory. You can shoot MORE ammo at distance to find that out.

Jerry

Shoot it... and then reload the brass.

9>)




GR

I’ve chronographed many factory loads that didn’t meet printed spec, the two worst offenders were Winchester 250-3000 100 gr. Silver tips, advertised at 2780, I got 2470 in an older 99. Good accuracy, though. The other was a PRVI 7x57 175 gr. RN, clocked it at 1975 out of a 20” barrel on a whitworth Mauser. I have found out my pre64 FWT 308 has a very slow barrel, best I can do with 165s is 2500, but it bug holes them and kills deer.

Old70

So what velocities would one be looking at with the 140 gr. 280? Same as 130 gr .270?

RM

Depending on rifle and barrel length but 3100+ is feasible

I just PULL the bullets -- DUMP the powder THEN reload properly. SAVES barrel life.


Jerry

yep JW, simple enough.....not that hard to figure. I've handloaded 280 R for a friend in the 80s and we got 3100 w/140s.

Jerry

Unless I'm missing something, that sort of begs the question for needing the AI.

Why? At the same pressure their is only enough capacity difference to equate to 40 FPS for the AI over the standard 280

That's my point: at similar pressure the difference between the two is moot. Again, unless I'm missing something.

True as long as they are loaded to the same pressure.

I'm glad to know that, hadn't heard it before.

@ 2000 or so I handled a few D Es at a Gun Show. Each for @ $400.00. I didn't know enuff about them so....

Later I seriously considered getting a D E in 10mm but loading it to 40 SW specs. I wish I had.


Jerry

I have always handloaded, but would not hesitate to hunt with factory .30-06 ammo. Factory .30-06 ammo has been killing game the world over for more than 100 years. What difference could 100 FPS make ?

Thank you, John.

What’s “Need” got to do with it ? The Ackley Improved is about Panache !

Ok, Less case stretch , and trimming.

Sexy 40 degree shoulder, with Less case taper, small increase in capacity.

Not much velocity increase at same pressure

I stumbled into a couple of partial boxes of Federal's High Energy loads a few years ago. One was the 165 Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (P3006T4), which did 2,973 fps in a 24" Model 70 Classic. The other was the 180-grain Partition load that you mentioned (P3006R), which did 2,800 fps in the same rifle.

Federal's 180-grain Partition loads (P3006F) has been consistently good for just over 2,600 fps in several 24" 30-06 rifles, or about what I usually get from Remington's 180-grain Pointed Soft Point CoreLokt in a Tikka T3 in 308. In that same Tikka and in a 24" Model 700, their 180 Partition load (P308E) has done about 2,560 fps.


Okie John

I stand corrected about the Remington semis.
Funny thing, as a kid I thought all hunting ammo came in a green box with CoreLokt bullets. That's all we used. Plenty of deer died. As previously mentioned however, I do want a 30-06, not a long action 308.

"The other was the 180-grain Partition load that you mentioned (P3006R), which did 2,800 fps in the same rifle."

You misread my post. The High Energy 180-grain load mentioned used the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, not the180 Partition.

I have not checked that much 06 ammo but in most other cartridges the velocity is low and slow. Norma almost always produces the highest velocity for factory loads and of the domestic ammo Federal came closer to spec than other ammo did in a few cartridges. All of the premium euro loads turned up good velocities. I think this may be because many european chambers have longer throats than American SAAMI throats so this is like a little bit of free bore with the corresponding lower pressure until fired in a shorter leade chamber.

I stand corrected.


Okie John

I actually used that High Energy 180 Grain Partition load quite a bit. I got about 2850 out of my model 70 with it. It was also very accurate in my rifle, and I used it almost exclusively while it was available. I could not equal it with my handloads. I still can’t, but I can get close enough that it doesn’t really make a difference.

I had a pre 64 model 70 30/06 with a Krieger 26 3/4" barrel that got a tad over 3000 PFS with 180 Partitions High Energy load over my Olher 35

I have been shooting Federal Premium for the past several years, first with 165 grain TSXs which are now discontinued and now 180 grain Trophy Copper. Neither has been slow by my standards, 2900+ fps. Everything I have shot with them has dropped with one shot.

My handloads are decidedly tamer. 54 grains of IMR 4350 under a 150 grain Sierra Gameking. They have blown some impressive holes in whitetail deer. I spend plenty of time with a chrono before hunting season making a detailed drop chart. With the scopes I run anything I can see on our property (600 yards and in) is within range if I want to take it.

Just before covid, I bought a couple of boxes of Federal 150 grain, I think Fusion, in a blue box. I had picked up an old sporterized low number Springfield sporter and figured factory ammo was probably loaded down. I shot it and there were absolutely no pressure signs, so I ran a few over the chrono...2940-2957 fps!!! I sure did not expect that, I know some of the factory ammo is not loaded down.

Whether it's loaded down or not the important question is how well does it shoot and does it kill stuff. In this enlightened age it is a wonderment to me that people still get hung up on velocity, especially since rangefinders have taken the guesswork out of considerations over point blank range vs. "long range" and bullet technology is at a level our fathers only dreamed of.

I agree wholeheartedly with both of you, but this is 24 Hr Campfire where a variance of +/-50 fps must be debated, the consequences analyzed and, where necessary, blame assigned for failure to conform to the velocity printed on the box.

Holy schit, my point of discussion was missed by many and it went sideways.

There are a number of cartridges that have been around a long time and hence chambered in older actions and is down loaded. For example, 7x57 Mauser.

I simply asked if the the .30-06 was such a cartridge, NOT if it is still capable to kill stuff if velocity is not what it could be in factory loads.

This is a gun/hunting forum. You need to ask the opposite of what you are seeking for it to stay on topic.

LOL

My chronographed results

150gn Factory = 2853fps. Best handloads = 3100fps+

165gn Factory = 2680fps. Best handlaods = 2950fps.
168gn Factory = 2662fps. Best handloads = 2960fps

180gn Factory = 2632fps. Best handloads = 2800fps+

Thanks Aussie. Care to share the loads?

my best hand loads with 180g are with H4350 at 2800, win brass, 5/8" in 24" rem SS sporter bbl.

ALL factory ammo is "underloaded" according to some handloaders....

I looked at my notes, and in a rifle with a 24 inch barrel, I got about 2690 fps for Federal Premium ammo with 180 grain Nosler Partitions. That seems pretty reasonable to me, although I can get close to 2800 fps with handloads and 180 grain bullets at what appear to be reasonable pressures.

I’m with you and John. My little M725 280 does about 3100 with BBCs and H4831SC. It’s a 22” barrel and I can’t think of a good reason I’d mess with it or gain much with it being an Ackley.

My NULA updated Colt Light Rifle in 30-06 (w/ a 24 barrel) gave the following velocities and pressures for factory loads

Win 165 Power Point 2717 fps, 47,000 psi
Rem Premium 165 Accutip 2849 fps, 61,700 psi
Fed Prem 165 TTSX 2857 fps, 56,300 psi
Horn 165 Light Mag 2900 fps, 56,600 psi
Horn 165 Custom 2824 fps, 57,200 psi
Fed 180 gr, High Energy Nosler Part. 2860 fps, 56,600 psi

It’s been along time but I remember chronographing Winchester 180s at just over 2500. The same rifle shot 180g hand loads at 2810. I agree that modern factory loads have really improved in recent years, both accuracy and velocity. Still, I’ve never chronographed Remington or Winchesters that were closer than 100fps to advertised velocities.

While it makes little practical difference when hunting at normal ranges, if I wanted to shoot 308 velocities, I’d buy a 308…. Similarly, if you want magnum velocities, best to buy a magnum.

How did you determine the pressures?

And why were the high energy rounds discontinued. Some Google indicates the same velocities that were mentioned in a few posts.

YES sir !!!

Jerry

John:

I used an Oehler 43 which I have used for 20 years.

Thanks!

What is an Oehler 43?. I don't see one on their website. Thanks

Strain-gauge.

Thanks. That's what I would have guessed. Curious that they don't have it on their website. very pricey, primarily commercial customers, I'd bet!

They quit building the 43 a number of years ago. My wife gave me mine for a birthday present in 2000. At the time it was about $1,000. A bunch, but we were both working and my wife had retired from auto racing. It was a real revelation to see how easy it is to overload a cartridge. Since I don't have access to SAMMI reference ammo, I use a variety of factory ammo as a general gauge.

Interesting! Thanks for the info. Just a little jealous that you have the where with all to do that!

ALLLLright to your wife !!

Now, I'm jealous of your 43. I have a "Pressure Trace" system but Tech wise it's outdated.
I can make it work BUT there's a whole lot of rig a mo role to go thru so I don't.

And I've quit HOT RODDING except for loads I've used since the 90s and give good case life.

Jerry