Not really certain about how I should phrase the question. I’d like to get an idea where other hunters see the delineation in effectiveness between hunting cartridge & caliber.

As an example I have lots of experience with a .270 Winchester and really can’t see much if any difference in field performance between 257 Roberts, 25-06, 280, 270, 308, 7mm RM, 6.5 Creedmoor etc. However, once I step into a 30-06 or 300 mag of some flavor there seems to me a larger on-game effect. Same goes for my 340 Wby - it just seems like a big step up from a 300 Mag even tho it’s not really. I don’t own any larger bores so my experience is limited.

The things we think about while sitting in a tree stand…

Bull elk with a 375 H&H (260 gr Partition) and another with a 270 Win (140 gr TTSX), both dropped at the shot.

Small bull elk walking, shot at under 50 yards, broadside behind the shoulder with my .375 AI using 270 grain bullet @2900+ fps, the bull showed zero response to the shot.....I couldn’t believe that I had missed. I didn’t.....he collapsed after going about 10 yards! I’ve had others that couldn’t fall fast enough.....you just never know how the animal will react to the shot! memtb

When it comes to critters like deer and elk, it's all in the bullet. Very little has to do with the choice of cartridge.

I have seen a fair number of pigs shot with different rounds. .22 short, long rifle, 5.56, 7.62, .257 Roberts, .30-30, .410, 20 and 12 gauge buck and slugs and 2.75” FFAR HE. Only difference is with the HE rocket there’s not much left for the mess kit.

Assuming deer. Caliber doesn’t matter as much as weight/velocity does. I think a softer bullet that has enough mass that it can be driven reasonably fast and still expand a decent amount while punching through a deer from any reasonable angle with reliable penetration is about the point where one is about as good as another. Small calibers can do it with tough bullets or soft bullets that aren’t necessarily going to punch through so that’s where the trade off is IMO.

I started my son off deer hunting with a .223 and Barnes 55 grain TSX they broke ribs and caused significant internal damage with exit wounds on broadside shots but usually didn’t leave the blood trails other deer cartridges do and were to small to fragments and still penetrate all the way through. So I wouldn’t call it ideal but good enough. I’d go with some where around .243 Win for being about equal to bigger deer guns in most situations. Shooting a deer on the edge of a swamp at dark I’d like a little more but realistically I think .243 Win is about where you get to the point of having a cartridge that can shoot a bullet soft enough to expand violently but still get full penetration from most angles and leave a little margin for error with a non premium bullet.

There are guys with a lot more experience than I but in a nutshell my thinking is that a long heavy for caliber soft bullet with less diameter than a larger diameter bullet has more room to expand to balance out a slight initial diameter difference and to still retain enough shank and weight to drive through bone or difficult angles. When you reach that point it’s pretty much a moot point. That with minimal recoil is the sweet spot.

With a clean shot through the side I'm sure the difference is not as pronounced. Shooting through an imperfect situation such as steep quartering with a flinch, though heavy muscle and bone and it certainly will show up. I don't have the sample size to back this up but based on one elk, similar shot placements through bone and muscle, there certainly was a huge difference between a 30-06 vs (32g + 100fps + .015" diameter) 325 WSM; both bonded core. Night and day difference... drill vs rail spike.

Sometimes not so much the bullet,but where it is placed.

I've killed deer with about 20 different cartridges. The last few years I've had to go low recoil due to a torn rotator cuff and a torn upper bicep tendon in my shooting shoulder. Drill shoulders with a good bullet!

I'm using a Tikka T3X barreled in .277 Wolverine, I'm getting 2,700 fps with a Nosler 90 gr Bonded SP. It's a hard bullet that will penetrate.

Shot placement is critical. I had to pass up on a nice 10-pointer a couple of days ago due to him moving through a thicket not 25 yards from me. A .350 Rem Mag in that situation wouldn't have made it any better.

I think I know what you're getting at but "killing power" is pretty vague and brings up ideas like Taylor's KO drivel.

You have to bump up the size of the cartridge quite a bit to see much of a difference between them if any at all. Bullet placement is the most important issue in killing. Second is bullet construction. Bullet diameter, weight and velocity do matter but are a pretty distant third.

Also most of the "comparisons" average hunters use are pretty worthless being of small sample sizes and using different bullets launched into different animals with varying placements. To really compare cartridges you have to shoot a LOT of similar game with one cartridge using very similar bullets and place the bullet in very similar areas, then switch to a different cartridge and shoot a LOT of similar game with a similar bullet, ect.

If you shoot three big hogs in their brains at 50 yards - one with a .223, one with a 308 and the last with a 300 Win Mag - the results are remarkably similar and don't tell you much. The animals going straight down and there's a bit bigger exit wound on the 300.

If you shoot elk at 200 yards with a 308 and the 300 Win tight behind the shoulder with the same 165 grain bullet you get equally dead elk and a few more exits with the magnum, depending on the bullet.

Now for what Einstein called a thought experiment. Let's say you shot an elk at 300 yards with the 223 (no, I don't recommend this but hear me out). Let's say you use a 62 grain fmj and center punch the elk's brain. What would happen? The elk would go straight down. What's the point? The point is most hunters have placement (marksmanship) problems rather than cartridge selection problems.

Good luck in that tree stand.

You’re not wrong but that’s mostly a given. Where’s the sweet spot between recoil and similar results on a deer and being able to shoot it with most cup and core type bullets at typical hunting ranges? I agree KO formulas are silly but where does recoil and cartridge reach somewhat of an equilibrium? I’d argue around 243 Win. Is a good starting point where most common off the shelf deer bullets will take a deer from most angles with minimal tracking or drama or much difference from one to the next. In other words most .223 caliber center fire cartridges absolutely will get it done but I’d feel limited if talking about an all purpose deer cartridge for any and all common situations. I wouldn’t feel limited with a .243 or a .257 Roberts type cartridge until I got out to very long range we’ll beyond typical hunting distances.

True. But sometimes not so much the cartridge but where it's placed.

The assumption is the bullet reaches the front half of the critter........

At under 50 yards with a fast TSX or TTSX. I took a nice mulie buck at powder burn range and that 150 literally buckled his legs and he fell into his tracks, he did the death quiver and died inside of 30 seconds. I’ve seen it happen to several Sitka Blacktails too. Down in their tracks.

I only hunt with.30cal or larger for what and where I hunt.

You can turn said animals heart into a ragged pulp with a wide variety of cartridges, said animal usually has 8-15 seconds of “whatever it can or wants” to do left in it.

Definitely in the larger fast 338 and 375's. There's a reason the 338 Norma and 338 Lapua are considered anti material rounds with certain projectiles. That isn't the case with the 6.5, 270, 7mm, 308's and that's just a fact.

Doesn't mean that we need to all use 338 Normas but there is a difference. Personally I enjoy my 308win and am going to gain experience with the 270win and again the 30-06. For me at the moment they're enough.

I definitely see a difference between the likes of the .270/.30-06 and a 9.3/.375 on game.

300 win mag.

No discernible difference from a 22 short all the way up to 30 caliber rifles. Learn something new everyday I suppose.


Now to go find me a gunship.........

Gents, interesting subject. I guess it depends largely on what you hunt, and the average distance of the shot. I have found my “Holy Grail” for 90% of the hunting that I do. Most shots are 150 yards or less, either in hardwoods, or on food plots that border very densely vegetated areas. Tracking a deer through the briars is not my idea of fun.

The 4 deer that I have taken so far with my 450 Bushmaster have dropped where they stood, one of them being a pretty decent 12 point buck, about 190lb live weight. Big, fat and slowish is working for me.

Sure, I have hunted for years with everything from the 223AI, up through my 458 WinMag, and my go-to rifles have always been my 7-08AI and my 338 Federal. Until I started using the Bushmaster. For longer range shots, the 7-08AI or my 30-28 Nosler get the nod, but the Bushmaster on an AR platform is perfect for most of my needs.

Speed with bullet expansion/penetration sets up HUGE Permanent wound cavities....this is where I have seen a difference.

220 Swift, 6 Rem AI, 257 Weatherby(custom, little to no freebore), 7 STW with little freebore

Yup and Yup.

Where I delineate cartridges is whether the game in question can run you over or bite back.

I personally like big calibers for bigger, thick skinned animals, starting with big hogs and elk. I liked the 35 Whelen AI/250x, 300WM with Barnes 180 on Plains Game, the 338WM/200x, 340wby/210xbt, 375 H&H/270 FS....all took animals from any angle, sometimes over 3 feet of penetration. Only a few animals in US are tough enough to really tell a difference, I think, between a small round and a bigger round. But hey, I too have had elk "just stand there" when shot with a 300 Sierra BT/375 H&H, 2nd shot was high shoulder and knocked her down. Hit bone to break them down. Head/neck shots are hard to make unless very close. I know nothing about big, humped back bear except I "think" the old M79 grenade Launcher would be comforting.!!

Placement makes all the difference. I've killed blacktail with a head shot with a 22LR and of course they are DRT. I've also heart shot them with a 375H&H and a 257Robts and had them run over 100 yards. Placement trumps bullet caliber/weight/construction and velocity/headstamp.

Have seen 3+ feet of penetration from much smaller bullets many times, including 100-grain .25 TTSXs and 150-grain .270 Nosler Partitions.

One good example occurred on a mature Shiras bull moose, as large-bodied as any bull elk I've seen on the ground. The 150 .270 Partition was started at around 2850 fps, and the bull was angling away at 125 yards. The bullet entered the rear of the ribcage on the left side and was found in the right shoulder. The bull took a step and a half and folded up, apparently dead when it hit the ground--and moose are known for often not reacting much to a shot.

Have also seen the 150 .270 Partition work very well on African plains game of elk size.

I have a pair of 243's, all armed with 100g NPt's, that have accounted for 15 elk, mostly in the hands of youngsters.. 50 yds to 375 yds, most of the elk quartering away, some heavily quartering away, a couple quartering while facing us. But, if I ever go back to Alaska on a similar DYI hunt where we saw brownies most days, I will probably be carrying my 30-06 AI with 200g NPt's. Of course it may be more of a mental thing for my own peace of mind.......

Most big game hunters in the US are whitetail hunters and that tends to be their yardstick, while I tend to be more elk centered and that's my point of reference. Any elk bullet is fine for smaller game too. In fact, a week after I came back from Alaska one year I killed a pronghorn with that 06 AI and the 200g NPT. Even with deer I want a bullet that will make that difficult quartering shot and penetrate into, and even through, the front half.......

For me, and this is just a casual observation over 50+ years of hunting, but I see a noticeable performance difference from one round to the other with frontal area. The greater the frontal area, the more difference I see in terminal performance, all else being equal.

Big and slow versus smaller and faster seems to work better for me lately as well.

Placement, of course, trumps everything.

FWIW at woods distances rn bullets seem to hit deer pretty hard. NPs do the same thing.

To sum it up, I don't see much difference in killing power of bottle neck cartridges (where most of my experience is) on ungulates, instead I see a difference in killing power based on the performance of the bullet.

Hunters are still rooted in the century+ old idea of bigger bore black powder firearms and "killing power".

These days it's about the bullet--but of course that will never stop us from discussing and cussing cartridges also......

my 2 cents > we need all the different size ,kinds , brands of bullets and rifles ,plus everything else so we can argue what`s much better to use and we all have are favorites. but to be real honest just a simple old 30-06 , partition bullets or another good brand bullet , bolt rifle of most brands , a decent scope ,would be what most of us is really all we would need ? but it sure is fun playing with all the different options available > that`s why we are rifle loonies i guess . a question from an old dear friend who is 80 ,during this fall`s 2021 deer season >he asked me is my old 270 Winchester good enough yet compared to a new 6.5 Creedmoor or am i i just way behind in what to use. i said very difference to us deer hunters when we shoot a deer.

It’s all about placement. A well placed arrow will kill a deer in short order. An arrow has no knock down power, it punches through at 250 fps, bleeds them out, so any cartridge 223 and up will do the trick at reasonable ranges. My 8 year old grandson killed this doe with a 223 at 75 yards. A 50 grain TTSX

Depends. I've seen expanding .223 bullets do less damage than a broadhead.

Me too, wouldn’t deer hunt with one myself, but it’s good for young people. I load 62 grain Bear Claws for my 223’s. They do well on pigs, leave heap big blood trails.

From .243” bullets on up, I haven’t seen much difference. As others have said, the biggest differences I’ve seen in terminal performance from shot to shot have been related to placement and bullet design.

In my experience, what people mean when they are speaking about the absolutely undefinable "killing power" of one cartridge vs. another is actually the immediate and noticeable reaction to the hit from that cartridge. The 300 WSM with a 180 at 3,000 fps and 338 WM with a 210 at 2,900 have given me more instant and noticeable impressions to the hit on elk sized game than lesser rounds. But the truth is, neither of them dealt any deader-death (the mythical "killing power") than the lowly 308 or 270.

All I require is a bullet in the right spot, and once there that it penetrate and expand... if that's "killing power," then so be it. Beyond that, this stuff is mostly between the ears on NA game. And I sure do enjoy shooting the 308 or 270 more than the 300 or 338...

The biggest effect is shot placement.

After that having a long enough soft bullet to hit at 2600+ and shed material all the way through while still making it all the way through and out. Larger frontal area and higher velocity at exit is better.

All that is better as you go until you get to more than can act on the animal. For instance, .260 120gr kills average Southern deer faster than 300wm 165gr. As you go to larger animals that changes. Tested that many, many times.

Or you can CNS shoot and not worry about it.

Any discussion of killing power is highly always highly controversial, because we all have our biases and therefore tend to interpret experiences and evidence selectively. That being said killing power is of any cartridge/bullet combo is determined by two things, where the bullet hits and how large and deep a wound channel it makes. The challenge is figuring out how large and deep a wound needs to be to effectively kill the game you are after. Here's my bias: I want a bullet on a broadside shot to create an explosive wound channel but still completely penetrate the chest. Then on a not-so-perfect angle, I should be able to drive the bullet into the chest cavity with deadly effect. On deer, lots of bullets and cartridges can do this. A 600 pound bull elk requires more. For me, it starts with the .270 and 150 grain NP. and goes up from there.

That's because it doesn't exist.

I don't have near the experience of a lot of guys in my 60+ year hunting career, but in all the old standard (not magnums) hunting cartridges up to .35...I have had more 'one and done' shots with the .270 than any other cartridge. But, ranges are not long, deer not dressing much over 150. And, quite a few shots were by poor bullet placement, but were still quickly lethal. (the oft discussed hydrostatic shock debate?) So why haven't I hunted with a .270 for over 25 years? Meat waste and bloodshot ugly carcasses is why. I enjoy hunting, but I am not just there for the kill, the whole process from the loading bench to the dinner table is why I hunt. Modest velocities with cup and core seems to do a quick humane kill regardless of bore size.

I haven't seen enough difference on deer between .243, 6.5 Creedmoor, 7x57 mm Mauser, .30-30, .308 and .30-06 to shake a stick at. High shoulder/spine/head they drop, lungs they generally run 20-50 yards before falling with all of them. Can't even really say there's much difference with a .223. Deer shot with it react pretty much the same.

flint, I've always viewed the 270/130 combo on deer-sized game about the same as the 300/180 combo on elk-sized game. Both tend to give immediate and noticeable visual indications of a hit on lung shots. Is that "killing power?" IMO, it's not... I guess I just don't believe in the concept.

I think it is safe to assume on this thread that proper bullet placement is a given. In the event of poor bullet placement, cartridge once again doesn't matter. Of course neither does the particular bullet being used...........

I guess I too am talking noticing "an immediate adverse reaction" to the shot. It just "seems" to me that the bigger rounds tend to "chill their doo doo" a bit faster, ha. They get that "OMG I've been shot" look on their face, ha. I may be all wrong, of course, but "less meat loss" is another reason I love the monos or heavy round nose bullets. Will I starve if I ruin a quarter of an animal? No, but I was raised to be careful with the meat. Hate bloodshot, ruined meat. That's why a ribcage shot is usually preferred. Now, as I mentioned, IF I need to anchor an animal, I go with high shoulder. I have whacked some pretty big exotics with small calibers, but was using very tough bullets. Ex- 220 Swift w 55 Trophy Bonded Bearclaws, 6mmx222 Magnum (6x47mm) w 85gr XBT, 22-250AI w 68 Hornady Match bullet. I always dig around and look to see what my bullet did to the critter, love it, ha.

MD- I remember reading an article by Ross Seyfried about how the .270 winchester and the 140 Failsafe factory load was the top elk killer on their ranch one year. I use to shoot that round all the time in my old Belgian BAR .270, but Winchester quit making it. It was accurate stuff is all I know. It was pure death on the one jackrabbit I killed with it and the one Spanish goat my God son killed with it, ha.

Yeah, the 140 Failsafe .270 was a very good bullet. Eileen and I killed a bunch of big game with it before switching to the 140 TSX--after the FS was discontinued and the TSX appeared. Killed game up to big nilgai with the 140 FS, and it worked fine.

The bullet Eileen's been using on game bigger than deer lately is the 130 TTSX in her custom Serengeti .308, which is actually downloaded a little to 2850 fps (about the velocity of typical 150-grain .308 loads). Dunno about big game getting a stunned look on their face, as the last elk she killed didn't have time. A big cow, pushing 500 pounds, it just stumbled 20-25 yards and fell over dead. (She also dropped the Shiras bull mentioned with the 150 Partition, back when she was using the .270 a lot. It didn't looked stunned, just dead.)

That is interesting. Unless long range trajectory is a major consideration, I usually try to get 2750-2850 fps muzzle velocity as the sweet spot between lethality and meat destruction. Was that your thinking or was it because of recoil?

I agree. Lung hits with most things, big or small, seem to cause similar reactions. Hyper velocity and fragmentation changes things.

Without good bullet placement nothing is going to work well. I think the debate is: given good bullet placement, how much does bullet design, diameter, weight and velocity affect the outcome? That's a lot of variables. And of course, each animal is somewhat unique and may react differently than others to the same shot.

Recoil reduction.

When Eileen first got the rifle in 2007 she used 150-grain monolithics loaded to 2850 fps, no problem. But shortly afterward she started getting recoil headaches, which over the next several years were triggered by less and less recoil. When we first started loading the 130s at 2850 she was OK, but eventually even that started giving her mild headaches, so we had a muzzle brake installed, which put the rifle just under the line.

The other two rifles she uses most for big game are a NULA .257 Roberts with 100-grain TTSXs at 3150 fps, and a Husqvarna bolt-action .243 with 100-grain Partitions at 2900. The .243 results in somewhat less recoil, both due to less velocity and because it's a little heavier at 7 pounds, 5 ounces scoped, while the .257 is 6 pounds, 10 ounces.

Lately she has been using an even lighter recoiling rifle on deer-sized game, a Tikka T3x .22-250, one of a special run from Whittaker Guns in Kentucky. It weighs just about the same as the .243, but with 70-grain Hornady GMXs at 3300 fps recoils even less--and so far has killed just as well.

PintsofCraft,
Much of my existance relies heavily on being injury free. Ive no running water, so haul water for myself and 14 malamutes in 15 gallon jugs.

Due to a minor hand injury acting up, I had hand surgery this year. I could only swing a 2.5 lb splitting hatchet head, modified with a full length handle. I could'nt run a stihl 660 in the saw mill. Could only handle a j-red 2172. So even minor injuries are a dire set-back.


I often hunt solo up remote, whitewater rivers or by dog team. Ive no electricity or heating fuel, so split all firewood by hand. Enough firewood to cover below zero weather from November to April.

This can all be taken away from me in a split second, packing a large moose hindquarter over inhospitable tundra terrain, laden with tussocks. My freind who ran a remote trapline for 30 years, broke his back hauling a hindquarter off a 70 inch antlered moose too far from the river. One bad step on a tussock, he was changed forever.

My Mi'kmaq cousin this past season, hauled a moose out with a tractor and hung it to process it. A few of my family back east have experienced similar, convenient moose recoveries. Must be nice!

Now I understand the most magnificient, most well-informed riflemen and big game hunters come from Montana. They're so practiced, so magnifient, any minimalist choice in gopher bullets will suffice, in any big game scenario. Just ask Brad.

But for some of us lowly bush wanderers not in their narrow field of view, living in suburbia America with all the accoutrements of a modern home with buttons for heat and water, there is a place for above 30 caliber.

From 358 winchester to 9.3×62 mauser, i dont see much change in where i cut up the large rut-raged bull moose.

BUT, at 41 caliber, I am experiencing a "stopping" where i preserve my back and knees, strained from 3 one -year tours in the Iraq war. The entire moose was within 10 feet of the boat.

This will help preserve me, so im prepared to pack the next bull my buddy shoots with his 20 something caliber gopher/coyote/deer gun. He doesnt care that lung-shot bulls with a single or multiple .20 something caliber wounds, can cover 100 yards or more of swamp and tussocks. Were not talking cows here, rut-charged bulls in their prime.

Anyhow, I wrote more about the 41 calibers here:
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/16468969/1

I still need to work the 41 calibers for at least another 5 years of moose before i can report anything definitive. I only have 6 years experience with the 41 calibers, which is not enough. They also need to be bulls in their prime, in the 56-70+ inch antletlered range.

What is “killing power (KP)?” How do you define that?

I have taken big game with from a 243 to a 375, and with a bunch in between, including with the 340 Wby but I surely don’t know.

There are so many different factors involved, and each time in every case too, that you’d have to take, I don’t know — say five hundred head (a thousand?) under similar conditions to start to see a difference. How many of those factors could you omit to begin isolating for KP, and still experience a true hunt as opposed to some conceived of laboratory setting.

No very many at all.

I’ve also had a fair number of whitetail bow-kills, for instance, with the same bow, arrows & broadheads, same distance, same placement, but radical different reactions in a few cases. Though there has to be some reason, those reasons aren’t observable.

If it’s not observable and then repeatable phenomenon, does it exist?

Mainer- that aint much shoulder on your .41x9.3-62 there! ha I played with a .416 Taylor, .416 Rigby, .416 Remington and (close) a 404 Jeffrey. All with 350-400gr bullets. But, they sure are a handful ( and an earful!) ha Does the 416 Ruger recoil as bad/worse than your wildcat? Stopping them right there is why my friend uses his 45-70 as a saddle gun. He hunts with the 350 Hornady pretty hot, plus, when he packs into an area close to the Yellowstone (those dang humped back bears again!) , he has those Grizzly Ammo Bear Loads +P 460 HC suckers! Ouch.

There is a big difference between "Killing" and "Stopping" although I knew a retired PH who used a 7x57 throughout his career to back clients even on the big stuff which gets back to bullet placement, I have it on good authority that he could shoot the head off guinea fowl at 100 paces.

bullets, not cartridges is where I see the difference

PintsofCraft: The "difference" is SHOT PLACEMENT!
I have killed "Big Game" with a 22 L.R. via a carefully placed bullet.
Careful shot placement is every bit as important in Big Game Hunting as is "caliber" or "ft/lbs of energy" or "bullet type".
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Brad, I think Mainer is picking on you......

The quickest double lung with an exit armpit shot on a elk I've ever seen was with a 270, 150g NPt, MV just a tad over 2700fps by a 14 yo. At about a 100yds. The cow's head went all wobbly, her legs collapsed and she didn't even twitch once when she hit the ground. I thought for sure the boy had spined that cow or hit her in the head.

I've killed only three Alaskan bull moose, none of them approached 70", but it's hard to predict how critters like elk or moose will react even when hit in the front half and a good bullet does its job. Shot in the same spot with the same bullet and caliber, I've seen plenty of elk react significantly different. Short of shooting them in the head or spine there is no guarantee the critter is gonna fall down on the spot.

That is correct - until their blood oxygen drops far enough, plus they produce enough lactic acid that the muscles stop working, there is no physiological reason for them to stop. Even a broken shoulder can be used for a while.

Every single report of a "bang flop" that does not involve CNS trauma is luck.

What you can do is drive a bullet completely through them passing through vital organs. That gives you blood to follow and a guarantee that they will go down. If it's fast, great. If it's not, you'll find them.

Killing power. I understand how that phrase means really…nothing. My phrasing was knowingly generic & I should have said the visible impact or trauma dealt at the impact of a well placed shot…but that’s kinda boring. I know I didn’t spell out my assumptions very well - I fully understand that there is really no such thing as killing power.

I was having an internal conversation about how bullet placement with a quality bullet, created for the task at hand, really made more sense than any of the old ‘Killing Power’ formulas and wanted to see what you guys thought about it.

I have hunted a mixed bag of game animals throughout the country but mostly hogs, deer & elk in the Western states before moving to Vermont. I’m a pretty old school backpack hunter that enjoys the pain & suffering in some weird way.

So that is a long way to say I enjoyed each of your posts on the topic - thanks!

-MainerinAK - stay warm & thanks for sharing a little about your seasonal routine & your 3 long hauls in the sandbox.

The fast twist 22/250 is an amazingly efficient killer, I have been doing most of my hunting with the same rifle for the last couple of years, using the 77 grain TMK at 3180fps, it’s performance on game reminds me of the 25/06 or 270 but in a package that is much less blasty, which I appreciate because I hate hearing protection when hunting

"Killing power" is the result of hundreds of hunting articles trying to quantify a physiological response to being shot.

Ha Ha. Elmer is spinning in his grave....grin...

I find my .22-250 pretty damned "blasty". Definitely harsher on the ears than my .30-06.

I recall reading a study/survey done years ago (Canadian maybe?) of results observed on a considerable number of griz/brown bear kills and the final result strongly indicated one had to go up to the 375 level to observe consistent results over the 30 cal, specifically stated there was minimal/no real advantage observed to 338 over 30 cal.

Now don't have a stroke all you 338 users, I've used it myself with good results...just like my 3006!!!

I shot a medium sized Blacktail doe several years ago using a 12-gauge slug. I hit her between the ribs while she was running at about 50 yards. I don’t know the energy or momentum or anything technical but you’d think a one ounce .73” piece of lead would make an impression.

Nope, she just kept running until she ran out of blood, then flipped over.

The main difference I see is mostly in bullet placement - not much in caliber (within reason).

Only three things matter:

1. what bullet
2. where it hits (and trajectory through the animal)
3. how fast it's going when it hits

I think you sort of answered your own question. Much of the "killing effect" has to do with the skill of the shooter if all other things are similar. Most any high powered rifle will get the job done with good ammo choice, if the hunters do their job.

There are 3 levels of impact thump you can witness.

.460 Weatherby
.375 H&H
Anything less is same, same. You won't see it.

Is this statement predicated on large bone impact? Zipzip through the lungs might not matter.



P

It is predicated on using those cartridges on animals. When you use bigger calibers (Notice I didn't say cartridge) you notice a change in reaction when hit. The bigger the animal the bigger this reaction is noticeable.

Bell settled the killing power question a century ago. Thorough study of game anatomy coupled with the shooter's ability to quickly and precisely place shots trumped bullet size and speed by a large margin. His record of DG kills with smaller calibers and inferior ammo is difficult to argue with. He also emphasized the importance of constant practice in presentation and dryfire to becoming an effective shooter.

YMMV


mike r

I agree with Pharmseller. I've shot, and seen shot a bunch of deer with a full bore 12 gauge slug. Through the lungs they still run 25-100 yards. Unless you hit the spine or shoulders they run til they run out of blood.

Ron

You can see more effect on a deer getting whacked with a 12 gauge slug than with any rifle cartridge I've ever used but that doesn't mean they get any deader any quicker. They don't.

The OP stated this. "However, once I step into a 30-06 or 300 mag of some flavor there seems to me a larger on-game effect."

Most comments drift form this and defer to accuracy, bullets, placement et al, but do not respond to the OP's query.
Carry on.........

I guess some define effect differently, DRT vs the visible reaction of the game when struck? Dead is dead and the sooner the better for most, therefore shot placement remains key.


mike r

John,

That is pretty much what I've experienced--except the for never having seen the .460 in action(Have seen various other .45s used, all on Cape buffalo, including the .458 Winchester (handloaded quite warmly), the .458 Lott (ditto), and the ".458 Express"--a wildcat somewhat popular among African hunters, which is between the .458 Winchester and Lott in case length and velocity. Couldn't tell any difference between the various .45s

Also have never seen any difference in performance between the 9.3x62 handloaded to "modern" pressure levels and the .375 H&H--which is partly why I recently sold my last .375 H&H. The other reason is that I'm not likely to hunt buffalo again, whether Cape or water--but have full confidence in the old 9.3 if I do.

Hope your hunting season is going well!

John

JB,
Am a bit surprised you let the .375 go, as you have had that one a while but do understand the 9.3 as a substitute.
I had 3 mates in Oz that used them and did some loading for one of them about 1988 and saw the results of its performance on sambar deer while there. It was a great performer on the large deer and is still I believe, quite popular there. Back in those pre Barnes X days, we used the 270gn Speer a lot and Woodleigh's were becoming better stocked in the local gun shops. I would also warm to the additional magazine capacity over the common capacity of 3 down for the .375 for potentially dangerous game.

The Whitetail around here seem to be overstretching their range and can bee seen walking down or beside the streets (Rural farm land) looking for love. Similar situation to Evergreen in Colorado where elk walk beside your car along the main roads during the rut. Wall hangers are common and no-one seems to or admits taking does so they are dropping twins or triplets every year putting pressure on the territories. As usual, access to prime locations is the obstacle.
John

Am going to turn 70 next year and have already been starting to "semi-retire" for 2-3 year now. We have always considered the gun collection as part of the retirement fund, so I have started to sell some. Among the first to go were several chambered for larger rounds, especially "African" cartridges, as have pretty much done everything I want over there, and the likelihood of getting up the desire to return is getting pretty low. Decided the 9.3x62 would be my "big gun" from now on, and know through experience it works on anything in North America. So far have sold about 1/4 of the rifles--but seem to be acquiring more shotguns!

Quite a few of even the larger towns in Montana have a resident deer population, which tends toward more mule deer than whitetails, though there are some of them as well. Depending on the town's location, other animals can show up, including elk, moose and bears--including grizzlies--partly because Montana is rapidly gaining population, primarily from people who want their own little pieces of heaven. The town I grew up in, an hour from here, had a steady population of around 12,000 back then. Now it is pushing 10 times that, and naturally many of the new residents buy 5-20 acres in the suburbs, which pushes wildlife around considerably!

Over the years I have shot over 2000 alligators on lines with a 22 magnum using hardnose bullets. This year I could not find any 22 mags and used a 22 long rifle. Huge difference in killing power on a 10' alligator. Found some 22 mags after the season and ordered enough for quite a while.

I can see the difference between my 30-30 and 30-06. But I still use the 30-30 a lot

An Inuit guide who took me in hand on a musk ox hunt almost 30 years ago also had a strong preference for the .22 Magnum when hunting polar bears.

+1 on this. I have noticed more DRT shots on deer with the more potent stuff, but I hate stiff recoil, so I'm still a lot more likely to use a milder cartridge whenever possible. If DRT isn't a problem with nearby property lines, I'd take a 30-30 class cartridge every time over an '06 class. I've actually sold off all my stuff bigger than 300 Savage.

I'm not shooting anything huge or dangerous, or at particularly long distances, so I don't feel the need to punish myself much more than necessary to get the job done.

350 Rem Mag. It does thump but it illustrates Taylor's KO factor.

I knew somebody would bring up Taylor and his KO. The truth is that he NEVER meant it to apply to expanding bullets, or even smaller cartridges.

He wrote about it in his first book, BIG GAME AND BIG GAME RIFLES, explaining that it specifically applied to "solid" (non-expanding) bullets on "heavy, thick-skinned" big game--primarily concerning how long a certain cartridge/bullet would "knock out" an elephant, if the bullet only passed near the brain, instead of going through the brain.

In his second book, published the same year by a fluke of scheduling, he basically provides the same formula and information--but NEVER mentions that it only applies to solid bullets, and why. Thus generations of hunters have quoted the KO factor of their favorite cartridge, while the formula was never meant to apply to expanding bullets and smaller cartridges.

Another factor in the whole deal is that a lot of other African professional hunters think the formula is BS, even today.

John, if I lived out “there”, I’d think the 9.3 excellent for your top-end uses. While age brings some more clear-eyed reality as to the wisdom of shrinking the safe contents, loonyism doesn’t just go away.

Shotguns have found their way into my safe too. Even a rifle or two. I’ve taken the view, for now, as it applies to divesting of firearms, that one step back, for every two forward, is at least moving ahead. 😉

I’ve seen some rather poor placements on Deer put them on the ground dead rather quickly. One took out the liver, one the big artery in the hind leg and another emptied out most of the stomach.

The artery shot was mine on what looked like a quartering runner…but when the bullet arrived it wasn’t.

Scandinavian ancestry?

Some prefer 22 short behind the ear of a moose while swimming.

I rarely see a DRT with .30-30 or .30-06 unless high shoulder/spine/head shot. Lungs I fully expect the usual 30 - 60 yd. death run whether I shot them with my .223, .243, 6.5 Creed., .30-30, .308 or .30-06.

With the exception of 2, all the deer I plugged with a .270 Win were DRT with boiler room shots. Distances were generally pretty short, between 40-125 yards.

One was a drt on an accidental neck shot, and the other one just stood there looking around like nothing happened, then walked maybe 10-15 yards before keeling over from a boiler room placement.

I've been shotgun hunting the past 16 seasons, though, and aside from 1 I hit high, they're always runners with foster slugs or sabots. Everything I popped with a 44 Mag or 30/30 before ran a bit, too.

I see mostly DRT's with my 30-06 and 150 grain bullets and I'm either middle of shoulder or just behind it.

Might be a difference in the bullets I've used. Mostly 180 gr. round nose core lokts and 165 gr. Win. power points. Last few 150 grain fusions. None lung shot with any of those dropped in their tracks. If I switched to something like a 150 ballistic tip or SST I know I might see more dramatic effect but I like penetration and exit wounds. I did get one instant drop from a lung shot with a 150 gr. .30-30 years ago but it was out of the norm. I've learned that shot placement, high shoulder/spine/head is the only thing to depend on for instant drops regardless of the cartridge in the chamber.

Killing power is a difficult to define thing. I know velocity makes a difference on lung shot deer. For example, in dozens of kills a 300wby shooting non-premium 165 or 180g bullet centered in the lungs offers far more DRT kills than the same bullets out of a 30-06 at similar ranges. 400+fps seems to do that. Similarly, I’ve noticed a tendency for larger frontal area bullets at good velocity do the same. For example, a 35Whelen shooting 225g SGKs has more DRT kills than a 30-06 shooting similarly constructed 180s at similar velocities.

In addition to preferring DRT, I prefer a combination that visually rocks an animal on impact. This is particularly important for elk as all to frequently, they show no indication of being hit when shot at ranges I typically hunt at. I’ve never had an elk not visually rocked with a 340wby shooting 210 NPs at 3250fps. Close to the same experience with a 338 shooting the same bullets at 3000fps. Is a 340 or 338 necessary for elk? Of course not. The 300 mags have more than enough killing power. In fact, shooting non-premium bullets, I think they may put an elk on the ground a second or two quicker on average. Does that mean they have more killing power? No, it just means at longer range they expand more violently than 210 PTs. Would I want to use 165 or 180 g soft points at ranges measured in feet at 300wby velocity ? Absolutely not….I’ve seen first hand how non-premium bullets can fail when striking large bones.

It all depends on the combination of the size and tenacity of the game, velocity, range, bullet diameter and bullet construction. Of course, shot placement matters most of all. A 22LR in the brain will kill anything in North America at the right range.

If an animal is shot in a vital area and the bullet disrupts enough tissue and gives adequate penetration the animal will die. There is no difference in killing power. The length of time after the shot may differ but if the animal dies the difference does not exist.

So an animal that runs a half mile and one that drops dead on the spot is the same result?

dead's dead......

That’s “killing power.”

Dead may be deadbut that doesn't always matter to a Pennsylvania hunter. Here if you're animal expires on the neighboring property the landowner does not have to give you access to get your animal.

Then the shot should be placed where it will drop the animal. This has far less to do with "caliber" or "cartridge" than shot placement. I have seen deer-sized animals go 60-100 yards before dropping with typical behind-the-shoulder lung shots from cartridges up to and including the .375 H&H.

Same here. If your game crosses a property line around here, you probably aren't getting it, because the odds of getting permission to retrieve it are slim to none. People are tighter than a mouse's butthole on property access round here anymore.

Same around here

In many places around the world, you not only aren't going to be allowed to retrieve your game, but it's not yours anymore--because game belongs to the landowner, and can be sold on the open market.

This is the law in much of Europe and Africa.

Interesting. I didn't know that

In fact some European ammo companies develop bullets specifically designed to kill very quickly, so animals have less chance to cross boundaries. About 15 years ago one of them told me they'd pre-tested their latest on around 500 animals before releasing it--a very expansive bullet, which tends to kill quicker on lung shots, which Europeans often prefer because it ruins less meat, which gets sold. But quite a few European big game animals are relatively small, especially roe deer, so it doesn't take much to drop them with lung shots.

Have also been chastised by professional cullers on African cull hunts for not head-shooting everything, for the same reason. But when Americans take part in culls they're charged a small fee per animal, which offsets the meat lost.

One of the better things about such a system is that you can eat excellent game meat in almost any restaurant. The down-side is it makes hunting more expensive for the average hunter, though not any more than leasing whitetail ground here in many states.

Various countries also have different basic agreements. When I hunted in the Czech Republic in the early 1990s, the standard deal was the hunter who paid for each animal taken got the head and the innards, such as the heart, liver, etc. Everything else was negotiated for a price.

One ranch I hunted in Namibia was owned by a family that also owned a local restaurant, and all the meat that wasn't eaten by paying clients or the family went to the restaurant. Same deal when Eileen and I took part in a deer cull in Ireland: The landowner was the last British lord to still live in Ireland (all the rest had been blown up, or driven out), and a local restaurant regularly offered fallow and red deer recipes from "Lord Rosse's deer."

Again, we were encouraged to use head shots whenever possible, or other meat-saving placement.

Danish. Interesting that you asked - I guess a little appreciation for staying in shape & engaging in rigorous healthy fun is part of how I was raised.

MD - thank you for so many insightful comments!

Yes. The title to the thread reads "Killing power-where do you see the difference"? So dead is dead. Now if the title had read something like "most instant drops/shortest distance traveled-where do you see the difference" then the time it took the animal to die or the distance traveled after the hit would be part of the subject matter.

Yeah, "insightful comments"- DEAD IS DEAD.

What is your next dumb question?

Since the OP didn’t mention the animal, but he mentions tree stands, middle of the road cartridges and being from Vermont, I assume we are talking deer here. Honestly aside from my first buck that had his shoulder broken with a .30-30, I never saw a DRT using arrows, 12 gauge slug, .308, .30-06, 7mm RM or .300 WM. Lung shots made no difference and actually using heavy for caliber bullets, I came to the realization that I was blowing the hell out of the woods behind the deer and that those heavy and premium bullets were never intended to be ideal for deer. Switching to faster opening 140 grain SST’s or Ballistic Tips from a 7mm-08 have given me more DRT results than every other chambering listed above. That has been the difference that I’ve seen in lethality.

I'm 75% Norwegian... we don't feel alive without pain & suffering

Brad - Nailed it 😂
Im pretty close to 75% Dane & 25% French. Long story. (Not everyone agrees about how this travesty occurred 😜)

Tree stands are literally my largest life challenge in my fulfillment as a hunter. I won’t hate but I’m just not that guy.

Get me mentally exhausted after 6 rainy hunting days in a bivy or under a pack full of dead weight looking at 4-5 solo trips along the same damn trail, full blown cold weather, in the dark alone on a mountain and I’m seriously thinking that my grandfather would be smiling at me. As a younger guy, he didn’t care about the size of the animals I was able to harvest - he was way more interested in how much it sucked & how much the pack weighed and then if I could bring him some burger.

Hunting = Hygge

There is no “Like” button on 24hr, all I can say is “amen.”

We speak the same language…

I could say a lot more, but won’t clog up your thread!

Am only half Norwegian--the other parts are Dutch, Scots-Irish and little bit of "Native American" from upstate New York. It all adds up to stubborn....

Ha! Most of the rest of my 25% is Scots-Irish… stubborn indeed!

Hahaha. Stubborn? No just very, very sure that the path others are choosing isn’t right and unwilling to correct them because it’s more prudent for one to learn their own lessons. Don’t even get me started on black coffee.

So killing power…lol

I just wonder if there’s not a slight edge to bullets that are larger in diameter, especially in exit wound size ? I just shot my first deer with a 338 cal bullet (fusion 200 gr.), and the exit wound was behind the shoulder and snapped the shoulder blade in two and never actually struck the shoulder bone.

We pay our money and take our choice of big game bullets... out of ignorance.

Ignorance, because bullet choice is dwarfed by shot placement, and we only shoot a few big game animals a year.
I use Nos bal tips, because I have an ignorant opinion.


But shooing rodents.. I have shot 1000 in a day... and still ignorance, as no controlled comparison, I just kept shooting Vmax bullets.

Just like accuracy rituals... who knows which of these rituals are worth the effort?

I published a chapter partly on the effect of larger bullet diameter in my BIG BOOK OF GUN GACK II in 2018. The entire chapter was on the subject of theories of killing power on big game, but it occurred to me that the "bullet" diameter that does the work for most hunting these days is the expanded diameter of bullets.

I have been lucky enough to not only get to hunt a lot, but see a lot of other hunters in faction. Consequently I have a good-sized collection of expanding bullets recovered from big game, so measured the expansion of the "mushroom" in the widest and narrowest places, then averaged them. Then I compared bullets of different calibers, and one of the more interesting things that occurred was the expansion of .338 caliber bullets averaged slightly LESS than that of .30 caliber bullets.

Now, some of this was due to chance. While my collection includes a wide variety of bullet makes, some bullets tend to result a FAR wider mushroom than others, in particular "bonded" bullets of various sorts. But even after doing some correcting for that factor, there still wasn't a significant difference in expansion width between .30 and .338 caliber, and none occurred until expanded diameter was considerably larger--or at least appeared to. My collection of recovered 9.3mm and .375 bullets did average larger than the .30s and .338s, but the sample was also smaller, because one thing I've found over the decades is that fewer 9.3 and .375 bullets are recovered. Is this due to their often typically greater weight? Perhaps.

I also have sometimes seen more "visible impact" when big game is shot with 9.3 and .375 bullets, but whether that kills animals quicker I dunno. Have still seen plenty of animals go for 50+ yards before falling with broadside heart-lung shots from both 9.3s and .375s, and quite a few of those animals have been more-or-less "deer sized."

Another example at the opposite end of the caliber spectrum occurred just yesterday evening, when Eileen and I shot a couple of doe whitetails on a local ranch. They were eating too much of the rancher's hayfields, and he really wanted some taken, so we volunteered, partly because we each had a doe whitetail tag.

It was very easy "hunting." We just waited on the edge of the hayfield until deer came out, and then selected bigger does. I shot the first, at 230 yards, with my 6.5 PRC, using the 127-grain Barnes LRX bullet at around 3100 fps. The doe was quartering toward me, and I tried to put the bullet inside the near shoulder so save meat. At the shot the deer started running toward the trees bordering the field, but after 50 yards slowed, stopped and fell over.

I then headed into the trees to find Eileen, who was sitting maybe 350 yards further along the edge of the woods. She'd actually watched my deer go down, but hadn't shot it because she hadn't quite decided whether it was a mature doe. While we sat there some more deer came out, and in one small group were two obviously bigger does, with one slightly bigger than the other. It started wandering closer to us as it fed, and eventually got within 270 yards, according to my laser rangefinder, and stood there in the same position as mine had, quartering toward us.

At Eileen's shot I heard the thump of the bullet hitting, and the doe made the little hop often indicating a heart shot, then took off across the field. After about 50 yards it slowed, stopped and fell.

The bullet placement was just about identical on both deer, inside the shoulder, but Eileen's bullet was considerably smaller--a 70-grain Hornady GMX monolithic started at 3300 fps from a .22-250 with a 1-8 twist barrel. I might calculate the remaining energy of each bullet later, but obviously the 6.5 bullet should have hit a lot "harder."

This is also obviously an example of one, but there it is.

Answering to the OP... I see the difference in where you hit them and the path the bullet follows, but pointing out that two apparently equally placed shots might have different effects due to one braking a major artery or a major nerve, for example, and another one just passing close but without touching it.

Even with the same cartridge and bullet and point of impact and position of the animal this is a thing that can happen.

Basically I thing the old saying that it is where you hit them and not what you hit them with still applies. Within limits, of course.

VarmintGuy, I have no doubt that big game has been killed with a 22 L.R., although I haven't seen it done. Even with careful bullet placement, I wouldn't rely on it. I base this not on animals shot with a 22 L.R. but by observing people shot with one. In one instance, a teenage boy was shot precisely between the eyes. He remained conscious and was able to describe exactly what happened, while waiting for an ambulance to arrive.

I had a discussion with the surgeon at the hospital about the path of the bullet. The bullet , a 40 grain solid, split on entering the skull, one half continuing straight and lodging between the lobes of the brain. The other half of the bullet veered to the right and lodged against the optic nerve. The half that was lodged against the optic nerve was later removed. The boy completely recovered, aside an occasional headache. Unfortunately, he was killed a couple years later in a collision with a tree.

The other shootings I witnessed with a 22 L.R. were in the chest cavity and were also not lethal. That doesn't mean that people or animals can't be killed with a 22 L.R. but convinces me that they aren't reliable, even with careful placement.

It seems to me that the rate of how fast the bullet expands would have the most effect on killing power. I have no way of knowing if Remington loads the same 150 grain pointed Core-Lokt into say a .300 Savage that they load into a .300 WM. A .338 bullet probably has a thicker jacket than a .308 bullet because it is intended for larger game animals. A deer is only 12 inches wide through the brisket and without hitting bone, that isn't a lot of resistance to fully expand a bullet. Then too it isn't the thickness of the jacket, but more the hardness of the jacket and the lead. I sure wish that I had made use of the company's Brinell metal harness tester for measuring bullets back when I had access to it. Thinner jackets on .257 caliber bullets are likely why they have the reputation of being faster deer killing bullets than the larger caliber bullets. I seem to remember that was the conclusion of that Carolina deer shooting study measuring the run distance after the shot on over 400 hunting preserve deer.

Windfall,

There are a lot of misconceptions about big game bullet expansion, and one of them is that various bullets expand quicker or slower. In general this isn't true, though there are exceptions--and has been demonstrated again and again both in gel or wax-type expansion media, and on big game. I have used media considerably, as have some bullet companies, and have also cut up many big game animals..

If a typical expanding bullet (whether hollow-point, softpoint or plastic-tipped) hits a big game animal, it almost always expands fully within the length of the bullet. In other words, if the bullet is 1.5 inches long, the bullet has "mushroomed" by the time it penetrates 1.5 inches. This is easily demonstrated by shooting small varmints, such as prairie dogs, with Nosler Partitions and most other controlled expansion bullets. The prairie dogs "explode," because a typical prairie dog is at least 1.5 inches thick, which is sufficient to to expand the bullet.

The semi-exception here is lower muzzle velocities, say under 2500 fps. I once shot quite a few prairie dogs with 180-grain Nosler Ballistic Tips from an iron-sighted .30-40 Krag single-shot I planned to use on deer later that year. The muzzle velocity was around 2400, and while the BTs didn't explode most PDs, they left inch-wide exit holes, even at 200 yards, so yes, they were definitely expanding.

Another exception to this bullets that for some reason don't expand, either at all or not much. I have encountered some of these over the decades, but they're unusual--and have become more unusual with plastic-tips.

Yet another exception is some "target" type bullets, such as the Bergers that always get so much attention on these threads. They have a basically closed hollow-point, but behind the tip the jacket is empty for a little ways. Instead of "mushrooming," the tip generally collapses after the bullet pushes a couple inches into either media or game, and only then does the bullet expand--often violently. (The exception here is when handloaders push such bullets much beyond 3000 fps, as many seem to think is necessary or desirable for a "long range bullet," then shoot animals at relative close range. They then can indeed come apart very quickly.)

Also, in general bullet and ammo companies DON'T use bullets of different "hardnesses" for various cartridges. There have been exceptions to this in the past, but most hunters either didn't comprehend the difference, or didn't understand it, so often used bullets designed for non-magnum cartridges at too high velocity in magnums, or used magnum bullets in "standard" rounds. So most companies now try to construct bullets so they'll work reasonably well in both standard and magnum rounds.)

MD,

I have had rather poor experience with TSX bullets, IMO. They didn't seem to open up in my 270 or my son's 270. We didn't retrieve the bullets as they punched a small diameter hole through a couple of white tails. The interior damage was minimal and the deer traveled a way before they expired, I felt. These deer were shot at close range.

I have some other TSX bullets in other calibers and have not decided to try them.

I'm buying TTSX bullets now as I understand they open up much better???

Bugger

Mule Deer, I think what you saw with your exploding prairie dogs is the same thing that I saw with an exploding snowshoe hare with a 180 grain Core-Lokt from a .308. I surmise that their small bodies cannot contain the temporary stretch cavity from a higher speed bullet. On larger animals we only get to see the permanent wound cavity because their larger bodies can contain it. At one time I thought that my deer deserved to be shot with premium or heavy for caliber bullets. Longer runs resulted and while a smaller permanent wound channel made for a tidy carcass, a quarter size hole through both lungs of a deer shot with a 140 grain TSX convinced me that it was not making lung mush like the softer Partitions that I'd been using. I'm sure that both bullets had expanded, though they hadn't resulted in the same amount of temporary stretch cavity. There are a lot of forum guys writing that the plastic tipped TTSX is a great bullet and I suspect that Barnes needed a tip that would more reliably expand the TSX. I am a resent convert to plastic tipped SST's and BT bullets. This year's deer needed his neck broken as a finisher. That neck skin was stretched out to much larger I think because its smaller size couldn't absorb the violent nearly immediate temporary stretch cavity. Feasible?

Bugger,

Have been using TSXs since they appeared in 2003, and in smaller calibers have seen them fail to expand more than once, and have friends who experienced the same thing. I suspect this is due to the tiny hollow-point in the tip in calibers of .30 or less, but have never had any TSXs over .30 caliber fail to open.

Eileen and I started using TTSXs as soon as they appeared in 2007 in smaller calibers, and have never had one fail to expand yet. This includes the Long Range version, the LRX, which is designed to open up at longer ranges where velocity has fallen off. Have used the 6.5 127 and .30 175 the past two years, and they opened up great on doe deer, yet still damage as little meat as the standard TTSX.

Windfall,

That's exactly what happens with smaller animals and expanding bullets--which brings up another point. Hunters who've shot smaller animals like prairie dogs and rabbits with big game bullets and see the "explosion" often think this means the bullet isn't "tough enough" for big game. Obviously this isn't true, especially with Partitions, and the reason is exactly what I stated: The bullets expand bullet very soon after entering.

One of most interesting test medias that I've used was the Test Tube, made of a fairly soft grade of candle wax. Unlike ballistic gelatin, it retained the permanent wound cavity, and provided some very interesting information--the reason several bullet companies started using them. But unfortunately the Test Tube company went under during the Great Recession, though I still have good supply in my basement. May post some photos of their results here later if I have time. They are shown in a couple of my books, including RIFLE TROUBLE-SHOOTING AND HANDLOADING and the first BIG BOOK OF GUN GACK.

I’ll be trying my TSX bullets in 375 then. Probably in the 375-06AI. Thanks MD.

Mono metal bullets sacrifice tissue damage in order to gain penetration. Their expanded frontal area is often smaller than traditional bullets and the don't fragment often. When they do fragment the pieces are large and have a lower density than lead so they don't have the same effect as traditional bullets.
I have been using monos for years to avoid lead contamination in my game meat. Other than that they have no benefit for me over something over traditional bullets.

A animal dies after being shot from lack of oxygen to the brain. The more tissue you can damage the faster the animal expires. That's why bullets like Berger VLD's kill so fast and bullets like monos do not when not shot into the CNS.

Having used 63 homogeneous bullet types in 13 calibers and multiple cartridges for each of those 13 calibers, I am struggling to digest homogeneous bullets disintegrating.........
Never seen it nor heard of it before this thread.

I see a difference on smaller deer, even more so with heavier bullets. I shot 2 does with a 300 gr Hornady SST sabot backed by 110 gr of Blackhorn 209 and both were DRT. I shot a button buck with a 180 gr .30 cal ballistic tip out of a >308 Win, and th at deer was DRT. All 3 of these shots were 50 yards or less.
Does this make me Captain Obvious?

Monos don't disintegrate, but they often blow off their petals when striking bone or at high impact velocities.

Had a dynamic example of that using a .429 Barnes 200gr pistol bullet in a muzzle loader in early November. With 110 volume units of BH209 at probably 2000 FPS or a little more the bullet did indeed lose its petals. Found 2 at the exit and 1 in the off shoulder of a buck that weighed 160 whole. This after the onside shoulder was busted just below the shoulder blade. Exit in hide was pretty much round and of bullet diameter. Obvious bullet failure. But made a total mess of everything between entrance and exit.

I wouldn't call it a failure at all to be honest.

No, I wouldn't call it a failure either.

Having seen at bunch of monolithic expanding bullets at work in various calibers from .17 up, and would much rather have them "lose petals" than fail to expand. In fact some monos are designed to lose their petals, such as the Cutting Edge Raptor. One of the most sudden kills I've seen that didn't involve the CNS was a 40-grain Raptor started at 4400 fps from the .22-250. Eileen shot a pronghorn with it at around 160 yards, putting the bullet just inside the near shoulder as the mature doe stood quartering to. The doe instantly collapsed, and we found the base of the little bullet in the meat of the far shoulder, after it punched a hole through the shoulder blade. We lost it before I could weigh it, not surprising since it probably only weighed about 20 grains....

Wasn’t one of the early knocks against monos their erratic ability to expand - or not? Seemingly, in generations of monos that followed it was gradually accepted that losing petals and expanding more rapidly with wedge tips vs hollow points was actually assistant in rapid killing? I’m thinking back over almost 20 years my memory might be fuzzy but CER (Cutting Edge Raptor) bullets seem to be the latest & perhaps most effective variety yet.

No, was not a failure. In the best voice of Fog Horn Leghorn “It’s a jo…I say it’s a joke son..it’s a joke!” Actually I changed bullets after that. Too much of a good thing. Off side honestly looked like a wicked centerfire kill. But they did enough but not too much for my wife with a weighed 60gr charge of BH. She dropped a buck almost as large with much less drama. And of course she had to ask “Why you using so much more powder than me”. women

That’s true, right there.

Only a sample of ~ 50 animals moose, bear, and deer.

But, a 35 caliber/250gn bullet and up make a noticeable difference in knock down power over any of the 33's on down.

I've used 28,30,33,35,36,37 calibers and the only one that comes close is a 30 caliber at 2650 ft/s and up with a 200 gn Accubond.

On big game, with solid heart/lung hits (non CNS), we call it the 10 second rule. Whatever the animal does in the 10 seconds, after the shot, is where you will find it. The ones that stagger, just stand there, or hobble along, are found closer than the ones that take off, on a "death run".

The bullet that visibly staggers an animal nearly every time, is a HARD cast (15-18 BHN), flat nosed bullet. As my dad called them, pre-expanded. A 350 grain, .45 caliber bullet, with a .370-.400 flat nose will hammer an animal on impact. We've never had a critter catch one, no matter how big or the angle. Entrance and exit holes look like a paper punch of the same bullet diameter. The damage in between is always impressive, and much more so than you would expect. The usual reaction is to hang around, after being rocked, for the "10 seconds", and fall over.....10-20 yards from where they were hit, often less.

Of course, it's not a long range bullet, and I can't remember shooting any game with it past 200 yards. But, out of a muzzleloader, 45-70, .458, there is nothing that penetrates and transfers shock better, IMO.

For "normal"/longer range rigs, we mostly shoot accubonds. We have caught alot them from ranges inside 50 yards out to 800 yards.....out of animals, and dirt banks at the range. Every one of them are the classic mushroom shape....only difference is the length of the bullet shank. Longer on far shots, shorter on close shots. The .338/225 and .308/200 are our favorites for western big game, and African plains game. While they do kill well, the hard cast bullet will get more reaction and incapacitate the animal, typically resulting in no tracking at all, and them tipping over in view.

I can't help but wonder, what a flat nosed .308/200 grain hard cast bullet would do?

Andy3

I shot a doe earlier this year and joked about it being a bullet failure as the jacket and core separated. The doe fell over and rolled down the hill with lots of blood on the ground.
I like bullet “failures” like that.

It's really a bit of a chuckle that we're discussing the tradeoff of monometals failing to expand vs losing petals, where it's fairly trivial to get both full weight retention and reliable opening out of a design like the A-Frame.

The monometals are just fighting it out for 4th place after the A-Frame, Terminal Ascent, and Northfork designs.

I can remember reading that for white tail you need 1,000 ft-lb of energy and for elk you need 2,000 ft-lb of energy - some things a fellow reads sticks with him and I have no clue how old those recommendations were.
Taylor, Keith , JOC, JIm C. and others helped form prejudices I’ve had and have found that what they wrote was probably pretty accurate for them. Can you imagine using military 30-06 ammo on game?
I know I once looked down on the idea of using a puny 6mm or 243 for deer.
I think there was a recent article on Sports Afield about how what is needed or used to kill game has decreased.

The Monos have won and not because they work better. Lead bullets for hunting will be banned in the next decade or so.

We don't need a bullet to expand, and/or very little IF: 1) it's at least .458", 2) semi-hardcast, 3) 50% flat tip, 4) 400g to 500g, 5) at least 1700 fps impact, 6) through heart of lungs.

And I'm talking big game, not PD, woodchuck or varmints.

Under the same conditions, same location and range I've literally flattened six-foot black bear with .45-70s and .458s. And they dropped at the shot without a CNS hit! DRT! Everything less I've used ran off for at least 20 yards and more. Where I hunt, that can be a problem: deep ravines, swamps and bogs, thick brush, etc. Retrieving a black bear in a swamp after dark isn't fun! Nor is tracking one for hours where only pinpricks of blood reveals direction. I've never lost an animal to ANY .458-cal bullet!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

pimpin'.....

I once had a client shoot a 6’ black bear behind the shoulder with a 300gr Matchking out of a 338 Lapua from about 40 yards. When it ran at us I shot it through the chest with a 510gr Winchester SP out of my 458 from 12 yards or so. It ran about 50 yards off into the brush before it expired. So much for big bores.

The difference exists in our imagination.