Saw this on another forum. Any truth to it? Thanks

The IMR label goes on Enduron powders. They are a relatively new line that is seeing good success, so discontinuing them doesn't seem to make sense. Hodgdon has quite a few brands, so they could be doing some kind of rebranding.

Seems someone said someone said it would be discontinued. The FBI would take that as proof, so why shouldn't we?

https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/...iscontinuing-Enduron-Powders/42-538023/?

I haven't heard anything about this through the gun-writer grapevine, or from Hodgon--and I have been in close contact with Hodgdon closely for many years.

Also just checked the IMR website, and they list more than one Enduron for sale.

One thing Hodgdon's website warns about is several "fake" Hodgdon sites have appeared recently. Dunno whether that has anything to do with this. (The IMR site I checked might also be fake. It lists 8-pounders of IMR4451 as available, but Hodgdon's load-data site shows it as unavailable.)

Heard the same about trail boss but no real facts to back that up either

Probably just something made up by the kind of people who love to try and create things for people to worry about.

I have no clue if the rumor is true or not, but here is the post I read elsewhere.....

https://texashuntingforum.com/forum...66-imr4451-imr4955-imr7977-i#Post8676387

I just received this from a supplier....

Hodgdon announced a 9/1/22 increase on select powders (Not all powders). The increase is substantial, but we are working on finalizing that information and getting it to you as quickly as possible. In addition, the following powders have been discontinued by Manufacturer moving forward IMR4166 / IMR4451 / IMR4955 / IMR7977 / IMR8133. These are discontinued in both 1# cans and 8# jugs.

Well isn’t that a kick in the nuts.

Indeed

Yep.

I wonder if an "agreement" between Hodgdon and ADI has been made. I was told by one of the higher-ups at Hodgdon (since retired) when the Endurons were introduced it was partly due to difficulties involved in getting powder shipped from Australia to the U.S. It made more sense at the time to have similar powders made in Canada, which wouldn't involve the same sort of transportation hassles.

I have enough Enduron powder for all the loads developed with them over the past few years, but some people don't. It might not be the best P.R. move for Hodgdon, though there could be other factors involved.

Powder Valley made a Facebook post this morning about the discontinuation.
https://www.facebook.com/permalink....PVrCr3SsHWG8qJsZl&id=114579301922351

Well this really pi$$es me off.. 7977 for my 280ai and 8133 for the 264wm... I have a good supply of both but crap!!!

Voids don't remain that way for long. Making lemonade from lemons, I am assuming that they are consolidating their Hodgdon/IMR line to reduce inventory and eliminate overlap. What will we see going forward?

Is that true when one company darn near has a brand monopoly?

Perhaps, but they aren't doing this to put themselves out of business.

I believe that they are streamlining, looking at which Accurate/IMR/Hodgdon powders overlap. If they sell off one of their companies, they can always get one of their manufacturers to start making a discontinued powder again.

Powder companies might get a kick out of "orphaning" powders, but they still have a ways to go to catch up to Remington "orphaning" cartridges.

Son of a buck 😡

I started to notice that some powders were much easier to find in Canada than others and this is much worse these days with the covid shortages.

Hodgdon for the last 10yrs has been more widely available here than all the other suppliers. Seeing this, I started to streamline to H powders exclusively. I have about 14lbs of WW760 and and few lbs each of IMR 4198, 3031 and 4831. Everything else is H.

It's brutal trying to find powder and primers here now. I see some powders being priced at $120/lb. I just bought an open 8pounder (7.53lbs) of H335 for $600 plus 1/2 the shipping and that was a good deal. Varget and H4350 are the hardest to find. Last winter I was sorting out my powder storage and found 8lbs of H4350 I had forgot I bought.

I have 3-4lbs of 7977 only reason I got it Hodgdon said it’s similar to H1000 I also have 8133 which again hodgdon says it’s similar to retumbo. Of course use appropriate data for those 2 powders.

For those who are retired and their biggest/best hobby is working up loads in rifles and spending time at the range, it hurts. If a fellow shoots hundreds of rounds per year or perhaps a thousand, it really hurts.
17 Hornet you’ll be seeing more of me than the belted cartridges at least that’s what my crystal glass is saying.
Might have to sell rifles to shoot others.

Let me know if you are ready to pony up for a new manufacturer.

I know how to make it happen. Bet I could get it going for ~$20 million.

Well, nothing on this earth lasts forever so roll up the sleeves and start experimenting with other powders.

I'd guess they are moving focus to the powders with highest demand and/or least overhead to produce when compared to price and demand. ....but...that's just a guess....

I have a 243 Win. and a 6.5 Creedmoor that do very well with IMR4451. I'd miss it more if they didn't also do very well with IMR and H 4350.

For most of my purposes if they keep the 4895 and 4350 spigots turned on I'll be fine.

The Enduron powders were not being shipped to Hogadon so finally Hogadon told them to go pound sand

I have 8-10 lbs of new unopened IMR 4451 that I bought when I could not find H4350 several years ago. I would trade it for H4831sc or H4350 or MRP. I am past the age of experimenting with the latest or best new thing and am happy to stick with what I have already determined works well for me.

I am thinking the same thing tcp. But then who can guess what’s going to happen tomorrow. Im glad I have an 8 pounder of IMR4350 and some H4350 & IMR4451.

“Not sure what’s happening here.
What it is, isn't exactly clear.”

Where’s the Winchester, Remington, Federal & CCI primers? Why are only commie primers available?

Why the discontinuing of bullets and powders?

Why are the prices sky high with the powder we can find?

CCI and Federal have been available online fairly regularly for the better part of the year, they just sell out fast once they come in stock... especially LR and SP primers. They don't come cheaply, though


All in stock atm of posting, but likely not to be in a few hours.

https://www.natchezss.com/cci-stand...m-military-nato-sensitivity-1000-ct.html


https://www.natchezss.com/cci-standard-primers-400-small-rifle.html

https://www.natchezss.com/cci-standard-primers-450-mag-small-rifle.html


https://www.powdervalleyinc.com/product/cci-550-small-pistol-mag-primers-1000/


https://www.powdervalleyinc.com/product/federal-gm155m-lg-pstl-mag-match-1000/

https://www.powdervalleyinc.com/product/federal-gm200m-sm-pstl-mag-match-1000/

To paraphrase Buffalo Springfield.

I "experimented" considerably with IMR4451 in rifles where I used H4350 for years. Overall I found 4451 worked a little better, in both accuracy and velocity--the last because it's (or was) a double-based powder. In fact just worked up a new-to-me all-around load in my New Ultra Light Arms Model 24 .30-06 a couple years ago, using the 175-grain Barnes LRX and 4451. The first 3-shot group at 100 yards with the max load listed in Hodgdon's data went a little over half an inch--which is how that rifle has shot from the get-go (acquired it in 1996) with several handloads. Plus, velocity was a little over 2800 fps. Hard to beat that!

Luckily, I still have around 7 pounds left in the last 8-pounder purchased, which will last a long time. BUT I won't be able to mention any such excellent 4451 loads in articles....

I have a couple of pounds of 4166, 4451 and 7977 and a pound of 8133 so I guess I’ll be doing less experimentation and just loading rounds for use.

I think the US primer shortage is due to folks buying and hoarding bricks of 1,000 instead of the occasional sleeve of 100 as needed to reload plinking or hunting cartridges. I’m sure the Covid unemployment benefits inhibited production volume for some.

Many times I almost bought that 4451 because you touted it as better than H4350. Now I'm glad I never made the purchase and stuck with H4350. But who knows how long Hodgden is going to keep producing that powder. They are doing some crazy schidt. They basically have a damn monopoly on some powders after buying multiple companies. Now we are at their mercy..

From Powder Valley's Facebook page

You say you know how to make it happen.
So there is some credibility.

I don't think you could build much of a powder plant for $20 million.

Apple's, Oranges, I know. But...

Have insight into a new gas station.
Built on the site of a station that was 60+years old.
Operated by the builders for 30years.

$125k+ just for design and approval.
Literally paperwork before even rewarding a contract.
$2.1 million, total. And the ground was already owned.

For nice, but not huge gas station.

Will, that sucks.

I doubt that many are buying and hoarding at the today’s prices. Buying in desperation and rationing is more like it. When this all started (this go-round anyway) many here called for prices to be raised to discourage bulk buying, for whatever purpose. Might be working because the ones I see for sale are often available for a fair length of time before they disappear, or maybe gas and groceries are getting priority over hobbies.

I still think the largest factor causing the shortage was the great demand for ammunition. The vast majority of shooters aren’t handloaders. Now that the standards like 9mm, .223, .308 etc are in good supply, even going on sale, maybe there are enough primers left over for handloaders, or if sales demonstrate that folks will pay $.10 apiece for primers, the balance has tipped in favor of selling primers over reserving them for factory ammo. Since most, maybe all of the primer makers are part of conglomerates that also make and sell ammo, they’re in total control of the supply, able to parlay it to their best advantage. I’d like very much to know if the prices we see now are reflections of wholesale price increases, or retailer decisions.

Been a long time since I bought single flats of primers; not since I started loading more than one batch of hunting ammo every few years, learned about lot variations, and went through a couple of shortages. I shoot way too much now to buy like that, even if gas wasn’t $3.60 a gallon.

Just out of curiosity; what powder companies are not owned by Hodgdon?

Since Hodgdon doesn’t make powder, only bottle and sell it, could this really be a decision by the actual powder manufacturer, maybe influenced by military contracts?

Never started with them, so no problem for me. It does point out one good reason for “hoarding”, as some like to call the sensible acquisition of stuff that others use frequently. If one goes to the expense and trouble to develop good loads, it makes sense to secure enough of the components involved to make more for actual use. Some years back I noticed that W780 gave excellent velocity with 160gr NPs in the good ol’ .270. Tried it and it was a winner, so I picked up a second jug. Good thing, as it was dropped soon after. I have what I need for that excellent load for myself and my son’s need in the foreseeable future, assuming Nosler doesn’t drop the partitions, that is.

When you buy toilet paper, do you purchase one or two rolls at a time?

I feel the same way about purchasing what is needed as Pappy.
I just wish I would have had a crystal ball on the 4451, I’ve just been doing a lot of testing, using up my supply. Getting great results and now I’m down to less than 2 lb of the stuff. Having found the ‘best’ load for your pet rifle(s) and then finding out the supply is shut off, sucks.
I think I’ll be looking at powders that are not controlled by Hodgdon.

They don't own Alliant, Lovex, Nobel, or Vihtavuori... yet. I bet Alliant will be next, since they're US based.

From Hodgdon's website:

That appears to settle that, I suppose. Business decision then, by Hodgdon.

Thanks.

Well crud!

My son and I both have 7mm Remington Magnum rifles - and they both shoot real well with IMR 8133. Great velocity and accuracy... Sigh... We've got plenty of loaded ammo and I have one, only one, more pound of 8133 on hand. Phooey.

Hadn't really messed with the other Enduron powders much, but was looking forward to doing so.

Guy

How’d it go in Africa? Are you doing a write up here or on Gavin’s site (or maybe both)?

Lol - yeah, and in no way do I consider buying a 1000 primers at a time "Hoarding."

Just another example of something not being made where it's used. We're all at the mercy of other countries, or companies in other countries.

Profits, loyalty. or internal problems of their own will dictate who gets the product or if anybody does. Practically all if not all powder we use being made out of our country isn't a good thing.

Truck chips ring a bell? Wondering what's the next thing that'll bite us.

Fortunately I have a lifetime supply of the IMR powders I use but I still buy them when I find them at reasonable prices. $600 for an 8 pounder is not reasonable . They dropped 4320 without any warning that I'm aware of so I expect no better when they drop anything else. I have several 8 pounders of 4320 but would have bought another case had I known it was being dropped. If they drop 3031 I'll likely be off of their powder. Been using their stuff for more than 50 years so I will miss it .

I was completely bummed when they dropped 4320. I went out and bought about 5 pounds as soon as I found out. Could have used more, but didn't have the scratch at the time. I'm down to my last couple pounds now, and reserve it exclusively for the 303 Savage. I had also been using it in 300 Savage and 308 Win when it was still in production.

I did stock up on what should be a lifetime supply of 3031 and Accurate 4064 this spring, just in case they hit the chopping block. A4064 pretty much became my 4320 alternative.

Alliant is part of the Vista group, which owns Federal and Remington, IIRC.

A abhor "needing" anything.
Wife tells me we need ketchup, I buy 3 bottles.
Like to have the next whatever I need right at hand.


Bought primers by the hundred when I started reloading at 17.
1987, was making $3.50/ hr and 100 primers were a bit over a buck.
Soon realized every loading session was a 25 mile round trip
for primers. Have bought 1000 ever since. The open box, and the
next one.

I too have enough IMR4320. My 350 loved the powder. I don’t develop loads using that powder any more though.

Two is one and one is none!

And it's only one stick of gum at the checkout.

Both of you are correct of course. I worked at a Scheels during college ('95-2000) and 1-3 sleeves of 100 was a FAR more common sale than "bricks" of 1000. I don't know anyone who buys less than "bricks" anymore and I don't see less than bricks being purchased unless the store rules mandate folks less than brick quantities. Same goes for 1# vs. 5#/8# kegs of powder. We sold VERY few kegs of powder, the vast majority of folks bought 1#-2# at a time. Again, now I know very few folks who don't buy 8# minimum at a time.

Sandy Hook, Vegas, and Covid shortages have lots of folks just plain sick and tired of being "out" or "short-handed" regarding ammo. Even folks who don't shoot much or often are now buying the tools and components to be able to load their own. I also know several who'd quit loading and moved to all factory ammo who've dragged their tools out of storage, set them back up, and started to buy components and load their own again.

never tried them, so I'm not missing anything...

but they want my attention.. bring back SR 4759 and IMR 4320.

Things like this make me not quite as bummed out as it would have ten years ago. I started reloading at 12, 63 years ago. It was fun, just as driving was once fun. Now both are done out of necessity, only.

That being said, I feel bad for everyone who shoots and loads a lot. Where 2-4 pounds of 5-6 favorite old school powders are my lifetime supply, losing pet powders and loads for the frequent shooter has to be frustrating. It takes work, money, and time to work up best loads, and to have a somewhat monopolistic company pull the plug is infuriating.

Getting supplies of 30-31, 4895, 4831, and 4350 might be prudent, plus some for little calibers and biggest boomers. A good selection of Alliant powders would be something to consider.

Anyone know where to get RE15?

Norma 203-B is the same powder--or was not long ago when I tested RL-15 and 203-B, in the same rifles with the same loads. Which is why I stocked up on 203-B when RL-15 got hard to find. Unfortunately, it appears Norma powders are very difficult to find right now too.

I suspect one of the problems with powder available is the many varieties now available. It's increasingly difficult to produce enough of each to satisfy every handloader--one among several reasons it used to be a lot easier to buy powder.

Like I mentioned earlier, I'll be OK as long as the 4895 and 4350 spigots stay turned on. They may not be the very best for everything I do, but one or the other is at least really good for most of the loading I've done for a number of years now.

Precisely why I bought an 8 #'er of 4320 last year. I had not used it in many years. It will do the job just fine in the majority of what I shoot.

I hope so ‘cause I bought some after you told me that😜 Thanks again, BTW.

RL15 has worked very well for me in my .308s with 165s.

RL 15 is a great powder. Good for everything from 223 rem to 375H&H. Damn versatile powder. If they only sold that and H4350, I could get buy for all of my rifles. Also, if they discontinued those 2 powders, that would be tragic!!!

It’s a damn shame. 4166 is a fantastic 5.56 powder for heavy bullets. It’s a bit faster than Varget and has been very good for high velocity mixed with great accuracy.

I have 7lbs of 4166, never loaded any of it though.

Kent

Ever make it out to Oklahoma?

"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

I'll bet the powder/primer/bullet companies are cranking out as much stuff as they ever did. Aside from panic buying of loaded ammo by non-handloaders, and the gov't acting the hog, the buying of components has taken a shift in recent years (as expressed by others on this thread) from buying ones and twos of things to buying large quantities. That may be partially due to the shift from buying at Mom&Pop LGS's (steadily disappearing) to buying on-line where hazmat fees encourage larger quantities be bought/shipped to make economic sense. It doesn't take long for an on-line retailer's shelf of primers to be cleaned out when multiple bricks are purchased by a bunch of guys who simply used to scoot down to the corner gunshop and snag a couple sleeves at a time as needed. I really do wonder how many bricks of primers and jugs of powder will be found to have gotten moldy from sitting in unfavorable environments over the upcoming decades, because Uncle Joe simply had to buy large amounts when a mere handful would've seen to his needs for a long time.

As for Enduron powders going away? Meh, I never bought a single grain of them. If the old standbys disappear then I'll gnash my teeth and hurl invectives at the moon. I'm still cursing Hodgdon for discontinuing 4759 8 or 10 years ago.

Any of you wanting to sell your 4451, let me know.

No sorry.

Kent

The 4166 was suppose to replace 4320, now they are both gone.

Kent

Yep. I was trying to find 4166 in recent months. My 308 likes it. I really liked the Enduron series. I wish someone would pick them up.

Hogdon didn't have a choice, they couldn't get the Enduron powders. They weren't shipping them to Hogdon

Me, too. Out of a half dozen powders that I experimented with, my 7-08 liked 4166 the most.

I don't understand this. The Enduron powders were IMR series, and Hodgdon owns the IMR Powder Company.

From Hodgdon's website:

.

I could load everything I shoot with 760 and 748 .I really like Ramshot Powders.Truth is I only bought a 1 pounder of 4451 and then was able to get H4350.I will never have to buy another pound of powder in my lifetime.Primers I have enough for quite a while but will probably need more several years from now.Hopefully after the brain dead idiot is of of the Whitehouse.

Good post.

Bummer.

I've got a couple jugs of two of them and used close to 16lbs. of 4451, which worked as well and maybe a little better than H4350.

The Endurons getting taken out of the Hodgdon manual is going to leave a lot of holes, not to mention how much promotion and advertising down the drain.

I bought two 1 pound jugs of different Endurons recently. I have a hunch my rifles will love them.

Bought some 4955 for a .280 and .270 because I was running low on H4831sc and couldn't find more. Almost hate to start down the 4955 path now knowing it will be a short one.

When Hodgdon bought IMR in 2003, the powders were still being made in Plattsburgh, New York--which is where Dupont had moved the plant some years before.

The IMR folks were not very good marketers back then. I know this because 2003 was 3 years after Western Powders in Miles City, Montana started marketing their Ramshot line--and Western had been a regional distributor of other handloading powders for a number of years, including IMR (and Hodgdon).

I got to know Doug Phair, the guy who owned Western, very well, and he told me during a phone conversation the marketing guy for IMR was NOT a shooter (much less a hunter) in any way. In fact, the first thing he wanted to do when visiting Western was go golfing.

He said this guy was wondering why fewer gun writers mentioned IMR powders anymore. I told Doug that IMR wasn't promoting their powders among gun writers--which meant they weren't sending writers samples, new loading data, or anything else, as other powder companies do.

After talking to Doug, the guy contacted me, and eventually sent some new samples and data--but obviously wasn't much interested.

Which is probably one reason Hodgdon eventually started having IMR powders made elsewhere than Plattsburgh--not onlyincluding the General Dynamic plant in Quebec, but also the Australian factory that makes so many Hodgdon-brand powders, especially the Extremes. I have IMR4895 made both in Canada and Australia, made with the same formula--and no, it is NOT H4895.

Am beginning to suspect GD in Quebec may have played a role in this situation.

I'd be tickled to find some RL 22 also

One of the other problems I suspect might be affecting powder supply is related to my previous post--about how the increasing number of "new and improved" powders.

While RL-22 was a big leap forward in accuracy and velocity when it appeared in the 1990s, it turned out to be very temperature-sensitive. This often isn't big deal to some handloading hunters--but is to others. Which is why Alliant introduced more temp-resistant powders in the past few years, as did other powder companies. As a result, demand has probably dropped for RL-22....

You just reminded me, I've run into both Canadian and Australian IMR4198.

Yep, me too!

And it looks, smells, and burns very similarly....

MD, Thanks for that info. I have been using RL-22 in my 25-284 and generally don't hunt in weather extremes but I'll show my ignorance here and ask you what powder(s) I should consider as a substitute. I am using it in front of 100 TTSX's and 110 Accubonds. Thanks for your thoughts...

Bill

Not MD but H4831/H48312SC does an admirable job of being similar to RL-22 results in many cartridges. Have not used RL-23, but that would be another burn-rate to look at if trying to replace RL-22 with a similar powder on the burn rate chart.

Reloder 23 does have a burn-rate similar to RL22, but like H4831 is also very temperature resistant--and RL-22 definitely isn't. It also contains a decoppering agent.

Have used RL-23 with excellent results in several cartridges. The only problem can be finding any....

Thank you. I need to find a good burn chart.

Hodgdon prints a burn rate chart for all the in every annual manual, and... it's available on line.

To my knowledge it's one of the most up to date & easy to read BR charts there is.

What happened to that plant?

Actually, I was mistaken. Just looked at my historical notes on smokeless powder, and the Plattsburgh company was just the U.S. importer for IMR powders, which were then already being made in Canada.

Powder was put on train cars and rolled over the border where it was repackaged and distributed.

Thanks for the info.

That's what I would have guessed, given Hodgdon's history and the location of Plattsburgh.

I still have some IMR powder from that era in steel cans, which say "Manufactured in Canada for IMR Powder Company, Plattsburgh, N.Y.

Hmm seens not so long ago IMR 4350 was supposed to be replaced by Enduron 4451..

Actually the Enduron powders were developed due to a "shortage" of the Hodgdon Extremes, made in Australia. 4451 was designed as a substitute for H4350--with "short-cut" granules and temperature resistance. Neither is true of IMR 4350.
"

I did find it on their website. Thank you!

What would be a good print reference for the Enduron powders load data? I know everything is available on the internet but the internet is a fickle... I've had several saved book marks become invalid after a few years. Thanks.

The Hodgdon Annual Manuals for the past several years have all contained IMR Enduron data. They can be found on the Internet, even past issues. I just Googled the 2021 annual, and copies are listed on more than one site for around $10.

Forgot about that one, copy on the way. Thanks

On another forum a gentleman claims he called Hodgdon and was told the Enduron line was discontinued due to low demand of it. Since I’ve only seen a few pounds in 3 years, maybe there’s a reason it’s in low demand.

Yeah, I haven't seen much on the shelves either. I'm sure there was some demand, just not enough supply..

Son’uva bee……
I heard this in July and chalked it up to another conspiracy theory.
And I just worked up a load in my 308 with IMR4166, which is a backup load for my H4895 loads—I am getting a bit low on H4895.
In several of my 270’s, 160g NPt’s and IMR7977 work great.

Son’uva bee…

I wonder how much of this is a ingredient/commodity shortage making it difficult to manufacture certain powders.
The hoarding inspired “shortage” probably did more to motivate handloaders to try the Enduron powders as anything.
Now the rug gets pulled out.

Son’uva bee……

Ya, I was down to 1/2 lb of H4895, couldn't find any, 4166 was available so I bought 7 lbs, 2lbs of A2495, 1lb of VV140, 3lbs each of old 4320 and 3031 locally in components trading.

Finally PV had H4895 a couple times so I bought 8 1lbers, my established loads for 708 and 308 are with 4895 for the last 15 years. That's enough for the grandkid's when they get all my shooting stuff.

I guess I'm officially a hoarder in that burn rate now.

Kent

Not a rifle powder, but, I called Hodgdon and asked about Universal powder. The fella said they are not recieving any and are not currently in the process of packaging any for consumer purchase.
Damn, glad I don't need any, but, was curious. Strange times guys.

So where was it going? Is it sold in Canada under a different name? Or is the military buying it? Or did IMR stop making it?

Sorry if I missed it.

Has anyone heard anything further from the teaser regarding the introduction of two new StaBALL powders? I recall a hint in that press release that maybe the Endurons were not going to be discontinued after all.
That'd be nice,
Rex

I can’t find H4895 anywhere and I use a lot of it. I have some but could sure use some more.

I saw some locally not long ago, and foolishly let it be. Still have some, but I won’t let the next jug I see get away.

Meanwhile, I’ll reserve mine for specific loads, and dip into other powders for futzing around.

Re23 is available.

Where?

I dunno, but these sites make it look like they have it.

https://rockstoneammo.store/product/alliant-reloder-23-smokeless-gun-powder/
https://meridian-firearms.com/product/reloder-23-powder-in-stock/
https://firearms-world.com/product/alliant-reloder-23-smokeless-gun-powder/

Enduron powder production was preempted by other contracts with the General Dynamics plant in Canada. That much is fact.
The rumor is Enduron was preempted by military contracts. The world’s militaries are expanding and/or stocking up.

Gee, that’s a surprise.

Sure ain’t gonna help the primer situation any.

Thanks.

So IMR4350 is made in the same plant as E4451? So I take it IMR4350 is still being produced? If only producing the one powder of the similar burn rate it would make sense to modernise IMR4350, maybe add the decoppering agent at least. Use some of the new manufacturing technology for the old IMR4350.

Is there any smokeless powder made in the US these days?

Alliant produces some of its powder in various U.S. factories, and the St. Marks (part of General Dynamics) plant in Florida that makes quite a bit.

Thanks John.

Our military might have arsenals that load them ammo, but it seems they should have an in country powder source for their proprietary needs if nothing else. Supposing St. Marks might be that considering their parent Co.