Getting ready to start load development for the Ruger Hawkeye African/9.3x62mm.

Given the 24" lightweight Bbl. and minimal recoil pad of this rifle, and the chance of shooting Large African game < 0.0%, have set the spec. for MV at ~ 2400 fps/286 gr..

Looking at Hodgdon's "VARGET," as it is a single base powder of their "Extreme" line, so it is fairly temp stable, and should also work well for reduced loads for the Speer 270 gr. at the same 2400 fps. velocity.


Hodgdon's Reloading Data Center - lists 59.0C grns./VARGET for 2350 fps., so maybe ~ 60.8C grns. would get it to 2400 fps.

Nosler's Load Data site - shows 55.5 grns./VARGET having a 99% Load Density.


My question is: How much VARGET can the case hold under a 286 gr. bullet?


TIA




GR

I have the same rifle but in the Lipsey's version.

I've not yet messed with Varget, but my GRT indicates Hodgdon's max Varget load for the 286 gr. bullet is waay beyond 2,350 fps and beyond .270 Win pressures.

My 54.3 grains load of H4895 chronies 2370 fps for me and under normal pressure.

My 58.0 grains load of RL-15 chronies 2375 fps, but stays just under .30-06 pressures.

I'm currently working up a 5,300 Joules ME load using H4350 for a 300 grain A-Frame. It's looking like the MV will end up right around 2,425 fps, but I'm not done tweaking yet.

Pud

RL-17 will get you to 2450 fps easily

But the lack of high temperature stability will rule RL-17 out.

41

All very different.


Hodgdon data, 286gr Partition, 3.225" COAL, 59.0C Varget, 2350fps, 24" barrel, 47500 CUP.
Nosler data, 286gr Partition, 3.220" COAL, 55.5 Varget, 2356fps, 26" barrel, 99% fill.
GRT data, 286gr Partition, 3.225" COAL, 54.8 Varget, 2426fps, 24" barrel, 94.7% fill, 56882 psi, 76grH2O.

from the ADI website - 286 GR. NOS PART AR2208 Maximum59.0 grain 2350 fps 47500 cup, as the makers of Varget I would trust them to be pretty accurate.

http://www.adiworldclass.com.au/data-rifle/9-3-x-62mm-mauser

Could be, don't know as trying to come up with Rl-17 is the trick..mb

I load 58.5 grains of RL15 and a 24 inch barrel. Have not run the chrony but assume 245p or so. I'd prefer accuracy over straight velocity.

I've loaded for 3 9.3x62s in the past and I've always found a good balance of accuracy and power with 58grs of both Varget and R15. the 286 "carries up" very well to 200yds. It is "not" a round one would pick for long range shooting, but works very well indeed in the elk mountains! Have fun pard, I sold my African 9.3 because of a sloppy. cut too deep chamber.

I have some prvi 285's and s&b 286's factory loads they both shoot good in my cz 550. Have some 250 Accubonds and scored some 270 gr Speers. Thinking 2500 fps won't be a problem. Don't think a guy needs to hotrod it either...mb

#1 reason I'm going with H4350.

+1

250 gr. NABs @ 2500 fps - easy peasy with a number of powders, and no need to hotrod.

Go to Accuratereloading.com. Guy by the name of Atkinson has data for RL15 and Varget. Those are my go to's for my 9.3.

I hadn't responded to this thread because Garandimal generally asks questions like this one that are kinda odd--and then often argues with the suggestions he receives. In this instance, he hasn't logged onto the Campfire since the day he posted the question--the 20th.

"How much VARGET can the case hold under a 286 gr. bullet?" was his original question--NOT which powder to use.

How much Varget will fit under a 286-grain bullet depends VERY much on the particular 286-grain bullet--whether it's round-nosed, monolithic or whatever. Plus, there's plenty of Varget data for 286s available on conventional websites, such as Hodgdon and Nosler. You don't have to ask on the Campfire, or go to Accuratereleading.com.

But since some responders decided to suggest other powders I will too. Have been handloading the 9.3x62 for 20 years, in several rifles, and while I eventually ended up preferring Varget for 250-grain bullets, I use Ramshot Big Game with 286s, because it provides fine accuracy--and is just as temperature-stable as Varget. For me, that means getting the same velocities and point of impact from zero to around 85-90 Fahrenheit. All powders gain some velocity above about 85-90, how much depending on the powder--but "temp-stable" powders gain less. Have not had the same consistent results with some other powders suggested, such as Reloder 15.

Generally I load 65-66 grains of Big Game, again depending on the bullet, but its a very dense spherical powder and fits under any 286-grain bullet I've tried, including Barnes TSXs. Have used this load in the field up to over 100 degrees in Africa, and in fall hunting temperatures from Montana up through western Canada to Alaska.

Garandimal might want to use Varget because he has some, and powders are often scarcer these days. But I just checked several websites for Big Game, and only one didn't have it in stock--and in fact one of the sites that did is offering a sale price.

Thanks, John, as usual, topnotch practical advice based on real experience. Dewey

Hi John, a bit off topic but we can’t get Ramshot powders here in Australia, what would be your second choice for the partition? I usually use 250 ABs with your load of 2208/Varget but have some partitions I’d like to use up, also am I right that ADI and Hogdon share a ballistics lab?

2208/Varget would among my second choices for 286s, whether Partitions or others. But in my experience the 9.3x62 is very flexible, and a bunch of powders work reasonably well--including either of the 4895s, whether AR2206 (H4895 here) or IMR4895.

Dunno if Hodgdon and ADI "share" a ballistics lab--but they certainly share data.

Ad Hominem attack.

Hurt feelings, John?



Extraneous information that obfuscates the question.

"I don't know," would have at least been an acceptable answer.




Reading for Content is a skill.



The question was RE: a specific powder/bullet weight/muzzle velocity, for a specified reason.

Just asked about the net powder capacity.



Specified exactly why it was selected.


Thanks for nothin', John.




GR

Hunting in their hot season rules Africa out. Almost all the hunting there occurs during their winter...our summer. R-17 is a great powder for the medium bore 9,3X62.

Isn’t it the crux of the matter?

He’s got you pegged, doesn’t he!

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
What a Twatwaffle!

Asks a stupid question like how "much powder fits..."
Varget won't leave a lot of room for crazy stuff, but one can compress...

Why does "fit" matter? MD is 100% Weird question.

Loading density, max load, min load, typically accurate load, favorite load...
all make sense. What "fits"?🤔🤔

I can’t decide if garand animal is just a dick or has mental problems.

Dillonbuck,

Along with the type of bullet, the amount of powder that might "fit" also depends on the brand of brass, and length of the magazine. The 9.3x62 was designed to fit in the standard K-98 Mauser magazine, the reason the "standard" overall length is 3.29 inches--but today many commercial rifles feature ".30-06" length magazines, which are generally around 3.4" long. Since the chamber throat is very long, it's easy to seat bullets out a little more in such rifles. For my CZ 550, 286-grain Partitions are loaded to an overall length of 3.41 inches--which allows about 3 more grains of powder to "fit" in the case.

Yet another factor that might affect how much Varget could be used is the particular lot of powder. I already mentioned how I generally load Varget with 250-grain bullets in the 9.3x62, but after working up my initial load (60.5 grains) bought another 8-pound jug of Varget and found the charge had to be increased to 62.0 grains to match the muzzle velocity of the first load. This much variation between batches isn't uncommon in smokeless rifle powders packaged for handloaders, which are commonly blended with older lots of varying burn rates to provide a more consistent product.

Another factor is pressure. The "modern" SAAMI Maximum Average Pressure for the 9.3x62 is 57,500 PSI, measured by piezo electronics, but the CIP (European) max is 56,565. When I started working with the 9.3x62 it seemed to me that .30-06 pressures would be safe enough, since they're not all that hot, and the 9.3x62 is sort of a 9.3-06 Improved.

A strain gauge (also an electronic measurement) showed the pressures in my handloads to be right around 60,000 PSI, the .30-06's MAP. So pressures might also affect how much Varget would "fit" with 286s.

It was a simple question of % volume load for that powder.

Ogive for 286 gr. .366" may differ a little, so the answer may have required an entire extra line to address both spitzer and round nose bullets, although sptizer is by far the most common.

"I don't know," would have been an acceptable answer.




GR

"Fit," bug-wit, matters as to how much powder can be used in the load... which determines the velocity of the load.




GR

In my experience case capacity is largely a function of the manufacturer. Remington is usually about equal to military brass and typically has the least capacity. Then Federal and Winchester which are similar. Hornady has more capacity than the first three, and finally Norma has the most. I haven't had much experience with Lapua brass to know where they fit in this analysis, but I've heard they're good and I'd like to get my mits on some soon. I didn't see the brass manufacturer in the original post, so it's hard to say until we know whose brass we're talking about.

I don't know.

Garandimal,
Why don't you just place a mark on the case neck of your brass corresponding to the base of whatever bullet you plan to shoot at whatever OAL you plan to load it to. Transfer this mark to the inside of the neck. Pour Varget into the case until it just covers that mark. Then pour that Varget out into your powder pan and weigh it. That'll be your 100% fill charge, and the actions described will only require a fraction of the time you've spent with this thread.
The answer you derive will of course have no relation to whether or not that is a safe charge to load but you have been pretty clear that all you care about is how much powder will fit under a bullet.

Rex

Lets not cloud this issue with reason and logic.

Haven't got the powder yet.


Originally, was goin' to load to 2500 fps/MV w/ Big Game (take a bow, John).

Need ~ 8-lbs, and it's the only cartridge that will use it.

So, what I'm tryin' to do is determine powder suitability.


The new (+/-) 2400 fps/MV spec should allow a single-based, temp stable powder instead of the Dbl-based Big Game, as well as be more suitable for reduced loads and lighter, 250 gr. bullets.

... IF, I can get enough powder in to meet the spec.


Hence the simple question.




GR

It's more a case of gross disparity.



Call it a 3 grain spread.

The Hodgdon number will work or get close enough, while the Nosler number would be a stretch, and maybe a different powder will work better.

VARGET - is the first choice, but don't want to end up w/ 8-pounds a useless or sub-optimal powder.

Will probably go w/ it anyway, as it should work good enough and meets to rest of the spec, but figured that the Know-it-All's here might be able to shed some light on the issue.




GR

If I were loading tge 9.3-62 I would use CFE223 instead of Varget. CFE223 gets more velocity in the 35 Whelen than Varget at equal or lower pressure.

Looks to be a similar burn rate, but is a spherical, double-based powder, that also looks the be fairly temp sensitive.

Like the "Extreme" powders for this load, if it will meet the spec.

Thanks.




GR

If you're using the same brand of cases as Nosler, which happens to be Nosler, and you're using the same Nosler 286gr bullet seated to the same length as their specs show, then the easy answer is 56gr of Varget. Nosler says 55.5grs takes up 99% of case capacity, so you need 1% more to reach 100%. Whether or not you should actually try this load is another story that can only be answered by the OP. After all, it would be 1/2 grain over specification, and probably not worth the hassle of dealing with out of spec ammo for no more performance then can be gained by a half grain.

Garandimal,

Why don't you pose your questions in normal rifle-loony language? You asked about case-fill, then claim you meant all the usual stuff--such as what loads various people are actually using with Varget.

And then, per usual, you start to object to the answers you get--as I suggested when explaining why I didn't respond. Which obviously means you think you know all about it already.

Which of course brings up the question: Why did you ask in the first place?

Because he's a doofus

In my 64 years of shooting, 54 yrs of hand loading for my 200+ owned during that time and a number of friends pieces as well, I have read most gun writers from the USA, Canada and some other countries. I find JB to be the best overall with practical advice for my uses and he DOES NOT constantly inflict the sort of braggadocio on we readers that so many gun "scribes" indulge in. This, is a welcome respite from the chest thumping that bores me to distraction.

Randy,

That's been my conclusion. But good to know you've come to the same conclusion!

Did you go out elking this interesting weekend?

John

I sometimes wonder if garandimal and synoptic are run by the same puppeteer.

Many have cone to the same conclusion

Interested in where the OP plans to get Varget, having just learned he doesn't have any.
Rex

Actually, Varget is showing up again, both on websites and in stores.

This isn't totally surprising, since as with past "shortages," they tend to start abating after a year or so. They're mostly caused by increased demand--from handloaders who expected to be able to buy whatever they want at the local store, a little at a time.

Once those handloaders buy what they want, then the "supply" increases.

Was just reading an article I wrote during the first "Obama shortage" in 2009--when .223 brass was almost impossible to find. Also remember when primers almost disappeared in the late 1990s after the Clinton assault rifle ban. They also started showing up 1-2 years later.

But every time the same thing happens, some handloaders are totally surprised....

Yup. Lately I've been able to buy powder, bullets, & brass in small quantities at the local SW. Primers tho, are still just out of reach....

Sycophants - are comforting.

Your whining and obfuscations still hasn't answered the simple question.

"I don't know." would have been an acceptable answer.




GR

Why must these threads always devolve into this?

Yes hunted the upper Gallatin in about 10" of wet snow. Saw one bull and his tracks were only ones we saw.

Hmm!

It snowed some here, but not in the valley--and not that much in the mountains. We didn't go out--rarely do opening weekend--but a couple friends got smaller bulls, well below the snow-line.

Getting ready to start load development for the Ruger Hawkeye African/9.3x62mm.

Given the 24" lightweight Bbl. and minimal recoil pad of this rifle, and the chance of shooting Large African game < 0.0%, have set the spec. for MV at ~ 2400 fps/286 gr..

Looking at Hodgdon's "VARGET," as it is a single base powder of their "Extreme" line, so it is fairly temp stable, and should also work well for reduced loads for the Speer 270 gr. at the same 2400 fps. velocity.


Hodgdon's Reloading Data Center - lists 59.0C grns./VARGET for 2350 fps., so maybe ~ 60.8C grns. would get it to 2400 fps.

Nosler's Load Data site - shows 55.5 grns./VARGET having a 99% Load Density.


My question is: How much VARGET can the case hold under a 286 gr. bullet?




GR

No idea. Don't really care. I use Big Game to achieve the same results from a shorter barrel.

I'm sure if i actually gave you an answer, you'd either disagree or argue the semantics of my answer anyway.

Different brand cases can be and often are of differing capacity.

You question is ridiculous. You should use the load data for your components

I've been laid up with the flu all this week feeling pretty miserable. For whatever reason, I started reading one of the threads started by Garandimal and was impressed by his refusal to be reasonable in discussing whatever it was he was posting about. So, I looked into the other threads he started and found that to be his modus operandi. He is what I usually refer to as a contrarian. Now some contrarians can be useful in stimulating thought and helping a discussion zero in on a good solution. Other contrarians are just....well, contrary. They just want to be difficult and deflect any useful conversation around in circles without accomplishing anything. They don't want information or help. They just want attention.

Guess what type contrarian Garandimal is!

Here in the South when referring to someone like him, the statement starts out with "Bless his heart...". At least it does when we're trying to be nice.

Like you, damn near worthless.

But don't stop bein' an [bleep]... just because.




GR

Listed in the OP two substantially different data sources.

What is the % difference in case capacity/brand, generally?




GR

"I Don't Know" - was your answer.

The rest... just makes you feel better about not bein' at the adult table.




GR

Ok Ok somebody has to say it... grandimal, you're a fuugin idiot

Case capacity 5.07 cm3 (78.2 gr H2O)

Per Wikipedia

Cubic CM is a volume that be translated depending on powder.

I did not read the whole thread...

Other cartridges... https://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_case_capacity.htm

5.07 cubic CM worth

I've purchased two more 1 lb cans of CFE 223 for my .35 Whelen, and plan to give it a try in my 9.3 x 62. But I've been very satisfied with RL-17 over the past decade that gives excellent velocities and accuracy, and has NOT shown any temp instability in either handloads or hunting loads. But then the spring and fall hunting seasons aren't extreme in temp changes. Yet I've shot those loads at the range from just below freezing to +30 C without significant changes in MV and POA. Not so with RL-15 which showed get distinctions with variable temps.

But CFE 223 showed less pressure than RL-17 at the approximate same MV in my Whelen, so I aim to give it a try in the 9.3 x 62. They were tested at the same time in new Rem .35 Whelen brass, using the same primers and COL.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Brown-nose.




GR

Not case capacity.

The Specific Powder Charge Weight capacity, under the mentioned weight bullet, seated to appropriate depth.

This simple question has apparently stymied the experts.




GR

Garandimal,

I will try one more time, because apparently you cannot comprehend the answers that have already been provided on this thread, which indicate there is no "Specific Powder Charge Weight Capacity" as you call it--for these reasons:

Your original post asks for "a 286-grain bullet," not a specific 286-grain bullet. You have also repeated this point in subsequent posts. But I already mentioned, more than once, that the amount of powder will vary due to the different length of bullets. I happen to have five different 9.3mm 286-grain bullets on my loading room shelf. Here they are, in order from longest to shortest:

Barnes TSX--1.521"
Woodleigh Weldcore--1.444"
Nosler Solid--1.414"
Nosler Partition--1.373"
Hornady Spire Point--1.313

It should be obvious even to you that "seated to appropriate depth" will vary considerably simply due to the length of the bullets. But it will also vary due to the length of the rifle's magazine, which as I previously noted can also differ. But even if all were seated to fit in a specific magazine, the "appropriate" depth might still vary on whether the rounds will feed reliably. This often occurs due to bullet-nose shape.

Due to previous experiences with your reactions to various answers to your questions on the Campfire, I expect you'll want to argue about all this as well.

I always appreciate your input and posts. This post reads like you're the Dr Jekyll to big sticks Mr Hyde. :-)

Piling on John's point, they get even shorter when you look at round-nose designs. I just measured the Lapua Mega and it's 1.234", .287" less than John's longest spitzer.

Can't leave out mag length, throat length and seating depth..... Garandimal is an idiot

He doesn't want a real answer he just wants to troll

This is like 3rd grade math dude...

Really... do the math.

CM3 of Varget x 5.07 minus bullet seat

Or buy a load book.

So what's the 100% charge weight of VARGET under a 286 gr. bullet, and what would be the max compressed charge?




GR

I believe you are either... lazy, stupid or argumentative.

Possibly all three.

This is the most spectacularly ludicrous series of posts by an individual poster that I've ever seen - and I've been here a long time.

I'll provide the answer 65.7368964 grains of Varget under a 286 grain bullet.

Or buy whatever 286 grain bullet you plan to shoot. Take a fired, unsized case from your rifle, add Varget until you reach the desired COAL. Remove the bullet, weigh the powder in the case at that COAL. Shazam!

Or you could keep asking someone to do that work for you - but different COAL and/or bullet length will change the result. The most accurate way is for you to do it with brass fired in your rifle to a COAL that fits your mag box or desired distance from land and grooves. Anyone else trying to do this will be "close" but won't satisfy your apparent need for exactness.

Good for you.

"I don't know," is your answer.

The question remains.




GR

Haven't bought the powder yet, and have never requested or required exactness.

Simply attempting to determine whether VARGET will meet the velocity spec, and, if so, what is the powder requirement for the loadings.




GR

200 is my answer then...

or 400 if you don't like 200.

Seems like the only way to really know is to make the investment and put in the work.

Your answer is, "I don't know."

Your response is adolescent and useless.




GR

You are correct... try 600

Try to grow up.


The question remains.




GR

Simple extrapolation from the Hidgdon site: 286 gr Partition, 59 gr Varget nets 2350 ft/sec at 47,500 CUP. Note that 59 grains is compressed. Rate of increase of 1 gr powder charge is about 20 ft/sec in their pressure barrel and 24 inch length. Pressure changes at a rate of 1925 CUP per 1 grain.

So, assuming you are cool with exceeding 47,500 CUP to reach 2400 ft/sec, you'll need to add about 2.5 grains of Varget to the top end - or 61.5 grains of Varget to push a 286 gr Partition to 2400 ft/sec. 2.5 grains equates to ~ an extra 3850 CUP, or a total pressure of 51350 CUP. I'm not sure what psi 51350 CUP translates to but would pontificate its ~ 63,000 psi.

The only other issue is will 61.5 gr of Varget fit into a 9.3 case at your desired COAL. I'd not sweat compressing the powder - I do it in my 308 w/o issue.

So the come close answer is 61.5 grains of Varget to get you to 2400 ft/sec in a 24 inch barrel. Pressure should be between 60k to 65k psi. I cant tell exactly how much velocity and exact pressure will be given nuances in chamber size, leade, etc. This extrapolation is how I've been doing things for years w/o issue. A drop tube will compress powder.

Good luck.

9,3 x 62M load data here... Varget and a multitude of different weight bullets.

Good luck with your Easter Egg hunt

www.laddata.se/powder/hodgdon-varget

Thanks.

9.3x62 Mauser | Nosler partition 286 grs | Hodgdon varget 59 grs
Submitted by admin on Thu, 07/14/2011 - 11:49
Caliber:

9.3x62 Mauser

Bullet:

Nosler partition

Bullet Weight:
286grs
Powder:

Hodgdon varget

Powder Weight:
59.00grs
Primer:

Winchester LR

Brass Make:

Norma

C.O.L:
3.23inches
Velocity:
2 399fps
Barrel Length:
20.50inches
Gun:
CZ 550 FS
Comment:
sdt. dev. 18.41 fps, Temp 59 F.




GR

Thank you for the reply.

Did the extrapolation and came up w/ 60.8 gr. VARGET and < 60K psi., based on the hodgdonreloading.com and other data.

But didn't know if it would fit under the bullet, based on the Nosler % data.

Close enough.


Can now figure a buy quantity, and ladder up some 270 and 286 gr. loads over the chrono.

... if the powder ever becomes available.




GR

Easy, just exactly the amount Nosler, Barnes, Hodgdon, and Norma load manuals say it will hold.

According to Hodgdon, H4350 get you to the same place without extrapolating.......

Interesting suggestion.


Available powder.

Had ruled it out as being too slow... but it works pretty well w/ the heavier loads, and is still an "Extreme" powder.

Wouldn't work too well for the 250 gr. TSX, but could have that on its own powder (1 lb).


Uses more powder that the VARGET load, so it will be a little harder on both recoil and throat erosion.

... but could use it for .270/150 gr. loads as well, along w/ the H4831SC.


It would also be a better powder for the 230 gr. Woodleigh Weld-core RN/SP's when they become available.




GR

Anyone that responds to this thread more than once----is a TRUE MEAT HEAD!!!

Hip

The campfire is in dire need of a like button 😀👍

Reloading manual data doesn't tell the full 9.3x62 story.

Nor does guessing pressure with quickload or any other bllsht method.

I can't speak on improperly chambered 9.3x62's but of the 3 9.3x62's I've owned and hunted with, they all had very generous throats.

As expected, these longer throats lower pressure. You see it over the chronograph and you see it on the brass.

In all three (two cz's and an oberndorf sporting mauser), I could load a 300 grain swift a-frame until the base of the bullet was flush with the bottom of the shoulder, not impeding case capacity whatsoever.

This leaves about 70 grains of usable powder capacity with dense ball powders.

Though I would never use leverevolution powder, 71.5 grains fills a norma brass to the base of the shoulder, just for reference.

The crimp groove is improperly placed on the 300 grain a-frame, putting the bullet too low in the brass. Even at this point, 64 grains of alliant 2000 MR easily fit in the case.

Even slower Extruded powders like RL 16, which are not very dense, I am loading 60 grains of the RL 16, as a lower-pressure load for the 1922 oberndorf rifle. I don't want to crack that original stock.


Carry on with the hypothetical, thinking outloud bllsht .......

Then 286 gr./2400 fps should be doable w/ VARGET.




GR

Even once - can indicate inbreeding.

Thank you.




GR

Inbreeding is OK as long as you keep it in the Family!

Hip