This may have been a 1x occurance, but I will not use a 175 ELD X on game ever again. I shot a cow Elk about 450 pounds live weight low, behind the shoulder at 247 yards with my 7 PRC.

Missed the heart. Tracked her for a little over 1/2 mile. Jumped her 2x after backing off for 1 hour and then again after backing off for 2 hours. Was finally able to get a neck shot in her while she was laying down.

The entrance was almost big enough to put my fist in. There was another whole near the arm pit. Maybe a stick tore that open? Don't know. No exit.

She left an easy to follow blood trail but it started to snow and luckily found her just when it started to come down hard.

My MV is about 2950 fps. These are factory loads since I have not hand loaded for it yet.

What was the internal damage like?

No penetration to speak of. I think I hit a major vessel. Sge was dropping large clots along the trail.

Any chance the bullet went sideways from hitting something before it hit the elk? I like to shoot for the heart, but circumstance may dictate aiming a bit higher to allow some room for error.

Don’t suppose she ran towards the truck; they never do….

I guess it's possible the bullet hit something but it appeared to be a clean shot. The person I was hunting with verified a perfectly clear shot. Before and after I shot. He had binoculars on her. She ran up and along a steep slope with lots of blow downs.

No experience on elk, but if you missed the vitals, the only thing that’s going to kill it is blood loss from the muscle wound. I have, unintentionally, made similar hits on whitetail and had to spend a lot of time finding them in briar patches that even Brer Rabbit would avoid.

I agree but that does not explain the fist size entrance hole

I saw similar results with 178 ELDx's from a .308 and .30-06 on my last trip to Newfoundland. Terrible penetration and near disintegration of the bullets.
The majority of people didn't seem to believe me.
I'll never use them.

Strange things can happen with any bullet, and a sample of one shouldn’t hold too much weight.

Having said that, I’ve been happy with the on-game performance of the 180 ELD-M at a similar launch speed.

I am so glad we found her. I will use what I have left at the range. Will never hunt with them. I had no time to hand load before this hunt since I got the rifle from my gunsmith a few weeks before the trip. Never had a bullet do that before.

Could have been a fluke, hard to say with a single occurrence. Conversely, had you hit higher up in the vitals the kind of performance you describe would have likely made for a dramatic quick kill with the lungs looking like they’d been in a blender.

How much do the ELD-X's differ in construction from the old AMAX? I shoot 162 AMAX's (got a PILE of them) and my results are usually "no visible entry or exit - deer just fell over, insides are jelly" - I have to hunt hard to find the entry/exit holes and I punch shoulders.

I’ve never been impressed with Hornady bullets performance on elk. Barnes TTSX and Trophy Bonded Bear Claw and the Federal clones are on my elk menu. YMMV

I killed a big bull last year with my old 700 .30-06 and 168 gr TTSX.

My son, who was hunting with me this year and helped track the wounded cow, used that rifle to kill his cow at 350 yards with the same load. Went through the shoulder and almost made an exit on the opposite shoulder.

His cow was about 450 pounds too.

This would be a good time to set up your own bullet test , duplicating as much as possible the conditions of the wounding. Since it's difficult to duplicate a test media, maybe fire some Accubonds or Nosler Partitions or anything you have confidence in, as a control into whatever media you use.
I got interested in testing bullets back in Finn Aagaards day, and arranged for a rancher friend to call me when a cow died...I learned some things from shooting carcasses, mostly that it wasn't fun finding bullets, LOL. One thing I learned, you can almost duplicate a hide, meat and bone media by packing stout cardboard boxes with melting snow...almost slush...with one slick magazine like the American Rifleman in front, stacking them end to end. I copied Aagaards use of the Rem CoreLokt as a control bullet during the tests. I won't bore you with my findings, flawed or not, as they may be. But as a result of my experiences and observation...I now own no magnums, and my bullet inventory for many cartridges reflect the "standard" weights for same. I am convinced high velocity introduces random unpredictable events in bullet behavior, things impossible to quantify, rpms and violent deceleration being just two.

I've killed two big game species with the 143 gr ELD-X and both were dead right there. One was 700 yards and the other was 470 yards. Meanwhile, I shot two whitetail with them. One I was unable to recover, little to no blood trail, despite me watching the animal fall over and get back up. I assume I missed the heart and took one lung. The other had virtually no entrance and no exit hole at all. It went about 25 yards after being shot, but there was no blood trail to speak of. Both shoots were under 300 yards. I'm starting to have my reservations about the bullet as well. For general whitetail season, I used a Tipped GameKing with better results. Next season I'm going back to bonded or monolithic bullets.

Agree, that Bear Claw is one hell of a bullet with a WIDE impact velocity window.

2950 fps is not really high velocity.

I'm starting out with 175g CoreLokts in my 7mm Rem magnum. Will switch over to 175g A-Frames once my reloading dies, etc. come in. I can use the CoreLokts for practice and use the spent cases for reloading.

Don't think it matters but my 7 PRC is an 8 twist. Texted my man behind the binocular and he once again said it was an absolutely clear shot.

2 quick kills at almost 500 and 700 yards then problems at under 300 yards tells the story. Launching bullets faster than what they're designed for never ends well. I loaded some 25-06 ballistic tips for antelope hunting once that were hot-hot but I knew I couldn't pull the trigger unless the animal was 200+ yards out. Took a nice doe at about 450 yards and the bullet worked perfectly.

I used the 145gr ELD-X on a deer and antelope one season. Very soft bullet that makes a mess.

When processing this deer. My Dad, who is not a gun looney, but a meat guy, made the comment "what bullet are you shooting? Sure made a mess and ruined a bunch of meat."



Monometals all the way for hunting. Makes processing much more enjoyable.

I’ve posted about it before, but I’ve had inconsistent results with the 143 ELD-X in the Creedmoor. Splashes on impact, pencil throughs and then perfect performance. I hear great things about the bullet from guys I trust, then poor reports from other guys with experience. I shot about a dozen deer with the bullet. Those were all from early production factory ammo. Maybe a bad lot? I’m just not convinced there aren’t jacket inconsistencies causing issues. Lots of great reports with just as many bad reports mixed in.

😳😳😳






Gave up using Hornasuck bullets in 93 for hunting. Advertised as the best 25 cal they ever made.

🤣🤣🤣

Perhaps, but I had never seen an advertised velocity ceiling. Muzzle velocity was 3050 fps. Either way, I'm switching to a bonded bullet or a mono for whitetail hunting in the future.

When I first got my 6.5 Creedmoor my son used the factory ELD X on a couple of small whitetail does. No exit and jacket looked like above. I load Scenars in it now.

Too many other choices to be messing around with bullets you do not trust. And why go to the M match version if the X hunting version is in question?

Shot a bull elk in October with 6.5CM and 143 ELD-X reloaded to factory specs (2700fps) - not impressed. First shot (200yds broadside) right in the pocket, second shot (200yds broadside bull moving) a bit back but still in the vitals, third shot hit rear leg at knee joint as bull was getting the hell out of there (300yds and moving). Caught up with him 1/2 hour later - shot him head on in the neck/front shoulder (50 yards through the timber) junction and he ran off again. Found again in the timber and shot him 2 more time (broadside) in the chest from 50 yards before he finally dropped. 4 bullets in the chest, 1 in the front and 1 in the hind knee. Not sure if it was the bullets or not enough gun. Bulls that I have shot in the past with 30-06 and good old 180 Interlocks go from 10 to 50 yards and drop dead.

I’m sticking with bonded and monos from now on, maybe the odd Partition.

Sounds a lot like my experience with Berger 140 VLDs on 7-8 elk, cows and rag bulls. Not anything huge.

Now all the usual suspects will proclaim that since you have a dead elk, how did the bullets fail?

What a goat rodeo. I'd be soured too.

I've found the 143 ELDX at 2700 to be pretty good on whitetails, but even slightly quartering angles on 200+lb hogs have stopped them. Killed fine, but not what I'd call a real "controlled expansion" bullet.

I have several hundred of them I'm not going to use in my PRC anymore. Perhaps they will work well in my 6.5 Creedmoor.

I had inconsistent results with the 143 Eldx out of the 6.5 CM on deer. Reloads that should have been very close to factory loads. After the second time it happened I switched to the 129 ABLR and have been very happy with it.

I had an extremely bothersome result with a reloaded 75 Amax out of a 223AI on a coyote. Multiple shots. All would have been from the same box of bullets. I'd never had results like that using them before. The rest of that box I used on targets/steel. I still love shooting the 75 Amax but have moved to the 77 TMK over the last several years and have been pleased with it.

I've been shooting the 175 eldx out of a 280AI but haven't used it on game. I was planning to use it in the 7 PRC. Not an encouraging report and I'm irked to read it...but glad it was posted.

ELDs are a target projectile crudely adapted for hunting. They should honestly never be shot at game, IMO. Something bonded or, better yet, a quality copper monolithic would keep you from having to do this again. Glad you were able to find her and finish the job!

One 75 gr. SSII off hand at a hundred on this 'yote.

The Swift Scirocco II holds together and expands. I like'em, 'yotes not so much.

Rifle is Rem 7 .22-204 with Brux tube, Jewell trigger, Lone Wolf stock. It's a keeper.

DF

had plenty of wonky stuff with 200gr eld-x back in 2017 in New Zealand.

Blow ups up close, not much bullet disruption at distance. 300 yard virtual pencil. Needed follow up shots. Same at 100 something. With the 40 or so kills I was pissed I couldn’t go and buy a different type of ammo.

Fall of 2021 I couldn’t get 108gr eld-ms and slummed 103gr eld-x in the 6br. smoked a doe on at field at about 1900fps impact . Saw blood as she whipped around on the exit side Perfect crease shot. Never found her. Same thing on a big cow elk couple months later, sub 2000fps impact for sure. this time with eld-m… softball size exit 5 steps.



Eld-x are not top shelf. And I’ve shot/seen shot a pile of critters with them in 103, 145, 143, 200gr flavors. Critters would include, stags, tahr, chamois, whitetail, mule deer, antelope and piles of feral goats.

Whereas with 75, 108, 140, 147 flavor of eld-m we’ve shot moose, grizz, musk ox, caribou, elk, mountain lion, antelope, whitetail, mule deer to perfectly good satisfactory levels.

Funny thing is I’ll hunt this coming roar and chamois rut with 145gr eld-x, that bullet has kept my mates kiwi block pest free for quite a few years, meaning u30-50 deer a season. But from records almost all larger animals are shot below 2700fps but above 2300 or so.. and that’s where the eld-x usually shines.

I put bullets into 3 categories: raw chicken egg, hard-boiled chicken egg and golf ball.

Now, imagine getting hit in the head (shot placement) with each of these projectiles at any speed. What's the outcome?

Which would you prefer to get hit with?

Which would you prefer to hit a 'bad guy' with?

To my way of thinking, Barnes TSX/TTSX are golf balls, and bonded/partitions are hard-boiled, with Vmax/cup-and-core being raw eggs.

Use a Barnes type or Partition type bullet and go kill big stuff.

Save the 'raw chicken egg' type bullets for small stuff.

Beautiful photo!

What was happening with these bullets when they landed? Did they fail to penetrate and just crater on the outside of the rib cage or did they ice pick and basically not do much damage?

I've 'retired' the 143 gr. ELD-X for the 143 gr. Norma Bondstrike when elk hunting. Having options in the field is a wonderful thing...

+1!

Shallow surface wounds both on and behind the shoulder. 2-3 times they spider web cracked the on side scapula without going through it, like a rock chip in a windshield. Never found a trace of those bullets. No fragments, no nothing.

I had just enough instances where they worked as they should have to keep me using them for a few more times. That, and to have a decent sample size before turning to something else. After loosing (I believe) 2 cows that I am 100% positive I hit properly, and the others being shot 3-4 times before going down, I moved on to the 135 classics and have been significantly happier.

I am half convinced it was my particular rifle, but that is a different discussion, and one that has been brought up 3-4 times on this board.

I moved away from partition style and mono bullets years back. Too many instances of pencil holes with with long track jobs on good chest hits. Switched back to cup and core and some bonded bullets, and have been pleased with the results.

Used a 7mm RM with 162 ELD-X this year for deer and elk. Took a buck MD at 390 and a cow elk at 575. Both mid chest hits. Terminal results were excellent. Overall, have taken a lot of game with Hornady bullets of various designs as well as similar bullets from Sierra, Remington Core-loct, Winchester PP, etc, through the years, and while not always picture perfect mushrooms, they have proven to be effective killers.

If constrained to use monos, I'd run them in higher velocity cartridges and keep impact velocity at 2200 or above. I know monos can be effective and tend to group tight, but I will continue running lead as long as I'm able, and the majority of them will likely be from Hornady, largely due to availability.

My observation is welcome to the bullet dilemma. Using a magnum inside 300 yards is quite a bit different than using a non magnum SA, i.e., 308 Win., 7-08 Rem, 6.5 Creedmoor, etc. Step up to non magnums that act like magnums out of the gate like 25-06 Rem, 270 Win, 280 Rem, 30-06, then you have your magnums. All of which portray different outcomes when it comes to bullet performance.

Bullets will act differently due to the impact velocities each of these cartridges display as well as their design makeup and the size (mass) of the animal being shot.

Expansion, non expansion, over expansion, over penetration, reduced penetration are all possibilities based on the aforementioned characteristics. In many cases a 308 Win shows better penetration and controlled expansion on game at 300 yards than a 300 Winchester Magnum, the comparison is different however at 500 yards. Selecting a bullet should be predicated on size of game at a predicted distance. The latter being somewhat of a crap shoot as one never knows the distance for sure.

The mass of an animal is an important consideration as to the bullet selected. Mass, bone and muscle are resisters to penetration and will initiate rapid expansion at close range with high velocity on eld-x, Bergers, SST, BT, etc. Using a Barnes at close range at high speed on game usually leads to petal loss and pass throughs. With bullets being used at 400-600 yards the magnums would perform more in line with these bullet design intentions.

The old standbys outside the mono design such as SP Interlocks, Partitions and A-Frames are some of the the best on larger game out to 400 yards. They tend to work fine down to 125 yards and out at 400 yards. This dilemma is a hunter’s own doing in my opinion by being less interested in bullet construction and mass of game animal versus having wonder thoughts about killing game animals at 600-700 yards whereby BC is their only governing factor for bullet choice. Only one man’s observation.

Good post.

Having recently purchased a 7 RM, this discussion is very timely. I've seen many such posts and pics of fragmented ELDX bullets. Enough that I bought several hundred 175 gr AB LR. I've seen/heard some disappointing results with the ABLR but have alot more faith in a bonded core bullet than a straight cup and core. I'll only get 1 wonky result with the ABLR before my gun becomes a 175 gr Partition or 160 AB rifle.

I shot the 129 ABLR for a while in a 6.5 and I'd say I was more impressed with that bullet than I was with the 143 ELDX. It offered more consistent penetration with decent weight retention and expanded diameter.

Interesting. I would have switched as well. The two worst types of bullet performance are the splash and the unpredictable. Precisely the reason I gave up on Hornady HPs, could never tell what they would do when they landed. If they’re consistent you can adjust and make them work. When it’s a crap shoot every time is when I give up.

Because the M version works well on game, as where the X version has mixed reviews.

The problem with 75gr Amax/eld-m is that ur probably gonna push them too hard for what they do out of that 223ai. I shot a mule deer buck at 100 yards or so with the 75 eld with 26gr of lever and it was not pretty. Very shallow vmax like wound. Just inside the ribs. Big flesh wound.

I’m sure that buck would have died eventually somewhere. Shot it in the neck when it was running off. And it died.

About 10 minutes before I shot a doe in the neck at 25 yards and she flipped instantly but wounding was explosive and very shallow. If memory serves nothing made it past the spinal column.

the previous bunch of kills and ones after with the 77gr tmk it was a super long string of bang flops or death dashes.


Whereas the eld-x is literally an sst in slippery shape, better tip.

If ur reloading the 7mm.. the 162gr amax/eld has such a long history from 7mm-08 to 7mag of being absolute hammers on tahr, stags on down to goats I couldn’t in good faith recommend anything else.

Jordan, I understand that but my point being this, I used what Hornady directed me to use for hunting. If I used the M, I could only imagine their response if I called to complain it didn’t work on an Elk.

Well, I got news for them, their designated hunting bullet did not work at 250 yards in their much touted 7 PRC.

I've been whacking pigs with my new'ish 6.5 PRC and the 143gr Bondstrike factory ammo from Norma. It's a kickasss bullet, much like the accubond. The ammo is supremely accurate as well. The only other bullets that interest me in the 6.5mm are the 130 accubond and 139gr Scenar, which is superb (no surprise).

I'm admittedly hard-headed though, and think Steve Hornady the Covtard and his Hornady bullets suck.

Understood. And I get your disappointment. But is the point here to make a solid argument when you speak with Hornady, or to simply use something that works?

I can recommend both the 180 ELD-M and the 145 LRX. For me, they are used for different scenarios, but both work.

Hate to add gas to the fire....

I called Hornady about 3 weeks ago when I was planning my own 7 mag and inquired about the 175 ELDX at 7 PRC/RM velocities. He advised against the ELDX and steered me to the 160 GMX if I thought elk might show up closer than 100 yards. That makes sense to me but it seems like that number should be more like 300 yards given initial starting velocity of the bigger 7s and numerous reports of 175 ELDX issues.

I must be the only guy on the planet that shoots elk at distances that don't require dialing. Not that I'm against longer ranges, I just seem to set myself in situations where having my scope set at a 200 yard zero has worked. In fact I've yet to shoot an elk past 225-30 long steps (can't remember exactly, just remember it was over 250 steps....).

I've also passed up more than a few elk that were on the far side of 400. I plan to address those 400-450 yard elk with this new pea shooter and the 175 ABLR. I still don't plan on any 500 yard shots regardless of the projectile.

"I just seem to set myself in situations where having my scope set at a 200 yard zero has worked. In fact I've yet to shoot an elk past 225-30 long steps (can't remember exactly, just remember it was over 250 steps..."

Bill, I think you should load some 165 PT's for your .308 and sleep on it. I think you'll feel better in the morning.

Hornady does not make an M for the 270, guess I am SOL.

.Guess I will have to continue slumming mono's, bonded, and IL's at Fudd distances. Sarcasm on.

I am a Fudd and kind of feel that if a hunter can not get under 300 yards, said hunter should probably not fill the tag. That is my opinion, but I have killed dozens of animals under 20 Yards with my traditional archery equipment. Bear, moose, elk, and deer.

I have had plenty of good times banging away at steel out to 1000 yards. Enough experience to know to limit my shots on game, especially in windy conditions.
Which is quite often where I live in western SD.

Didn't the same rifle have problems with Hornadys?

Correct. Move on to what works.

I concur.

Yep, 100%

Correct. 147 ELD-Ms, to be exact. 2 different lots were blowing up at the bbl at ~2850 FPS with an 8 twist.
You're the one that initially made the observation that the rifle could have been the root cause.

The rifle does just fine with 140 AMAX and 135 Berger Classics though. No issues whatsoever on elk, caribou, grizzly and a bunch of other critters.

I'll take up bocce before I'll use another Hornady product.

OK I did. Now I feel better.

175 gr ABLR arriving today

Our group used my Mashburn with 175 ABLRs this year for two bulls and a cow. Worked great, broke bone and did what a good bullet should in my book.

Have had excellent results with the 147 ELD and 212 ELD X in the past.

Really like this statement. Farthest elk I have ever shot was 275 yards.

This year was 170 yards.


155gr LRX out of a 270 WCF 1:8 twist.
That must make me a Fudd, since I don't actively go out hunting to see how far I can kill an animal. But my freezer is happy.

Due performance or philosophical differences with management?

If you keep at it, eventually a longer shot will come along!

It's worth noting that those rounds I mentioned were all fireforming loads. They would have been impacting at less than a normal factory .223. I'd not seen results like that in either previous forming or formed loads.

Dang, thanks for the report even though it was poor.

After reading that, it makes me glad I steered away from the 143 ELD-X even though they shot great in my new 6.5CM. I did use the CM on a couple animals this fall, but went with the clunky old 125 grain NPT and they performed did great.

All these new wizzbang bullet failures make me appreciate my old fudd Nosler partitions.....

150 ELDX out of our 7mm-08s

162 ELDX out of our 7mm Rem Mags

Lots of deer, lots of elk, even a couple of antelope.

Great results at a wide variety of distances.

You’ve all seen the photos, so I will forbear.




P

My concerns started with reading about "clickers" although I have only shot factory rounds up to this point. We shall see how that turns out.

Then there is the advertised velocity of 3000 fps from a 24" barrel with factory loads. I have never heard anyone getting that velocity. I have a Bartlein 26" barrel and cannot do 3000 fps. Yep, all barrels are different, but who is getting 3000 fps from factory 175 ELD X in a 7 PRC?

And now I am dealing with an entrance hole that looks like an exit with no penetration on a cow Elk at 247 yards.

I am starting to think Hornady is pissing on our legs and telling us it raining.

There's not a darn thing wrong with private, low land ranch hunts. I would, and have done them before, though not for elk. I am actually a touch envious. I don't however think your message is a fair point to make concerning how the vast majority of North American elk hunters do their thing. If you're willing to pass on 300+ yard shots on heavily pressured public land elk due to your own ethics, then good on ya. I am not in a general sense, and won't apologize for it.

I should mention though that all but 2-3 of my elk have been sub 300 yards, but I sure was glad I had the ability to stretch it out further those few times.

Lots of people shouldn't be shooting at elk at 100 yards let alone 300+ due to their (lack of) shooting ability, but that is a completely different discussion.

The 7mm Nosler 175 partition has a bc of .519, not to bad and will surely not break up, even at very close range.
Wish they would make a 175 Accubond, that would be even more better.....

No offense to anyone here, but they are designed to be long range bullets and if you think the dinky “Interlock” is going to hold them together when driven at higher end speeds it just isn’t going to be good. Slow them down to around 2700 start speed and they act excellent near and far.

I agree they “should” work relatively close out of their chosen cartridge (7 PRC) but they can be brutal.

I think any thin jacketed bullet like this is going to have intermittent results, cut vs button barrels, numbers of grooves, etc all come into place as well. Thin jackets in some cut barrels could be weakened to the point they hang together in flight but turn to VMaxs on impact. It’s not totally the bullets fault, we ask for a lot from them.

Good post. Know well the characteristics of the bullet you're sending and how they interelate with the idiosyncracies of the situation and you'll likely be pleased with the results.

I shot 175 NP out of 7mm RM and WM many years back. They did open up a little better than the 338 NP's I ran around the same era, but unless you ran them through something substantial, they had a tendency to drill a pencil hole, especially for broadside chest shots at lower velocities. I can say that if you need a lot of penetration for oblique angle shots at pretty large game, the 175 .284 NP is you're huckleberry.

I don't have as much experience with the AB and other, similar bonded designs, but what I do has been positive and it is the direction I'd go if I wasn't happy with more common cup and core designs.

There used to be someone on here, maybe BobinNH, that used to say, I don't want a bullet that works when everything goes right, I want one that works when things go wrong.

Maybe a bit of wisdom there.

According to Nosler the partition & Accubond have a minimum expansion velocity of 1800 fps. With a 7 mag pushing a 175 partition at 2950 you are good to 750 yds.
A 160 accubond will get you to 850 yds... that covers a lot of ground

Amen.....the partition and accubond are never a bad choice, ever.

Bob Hagel I bet.

Both.

I'd buy a large quantity of them.....

I don't have a dog in the fight as I've only used regular Hdy Interlocks. However, given the Lapua Scenar's reputation as a game bullet, why not run a 7mm 180?

Could be.

He was an outspoken fan of NP's, and the 175 .284 especially. 7mm Marshburn, IIRC.

Regardless of who said that I’ll definitely agree with it. With so many folks enamored with ultra long range shooting and the use of soft, target type bullets there’s gonna be shots on game that do not give the desired results. Since I’m not interested in shooting much over 400yds I can happily use bullets like Noslers, Barnes and other similarly well constructed bullets that will produce the kind of results I want on game like elk.

Well said John.
So many get taken in by people like Dip Stick and the flat brim dude/bro crowd and think they are long range hunters and need the highest BC bullets.
As I pointed out earlier a 175 NP will get you to 750 yds and a 160 AB will get you to 850 yds. both bullets proven to have reliable results on big critters.

I have a bunch of them. Dober ran them and had good results in the Mashburn and they shoot like crazy.. I wouldn't be scared myself.

I am curious about the Scenar. What makes them different than any other jacketed target bullet? I know the 308 , 155 has a huge hollow cavity in the nose... but what holds them together on impact?

Pretty much where I'm at

That was this year's meat hunt, majority of my elk have come off of public land in SD, WY, and CO. Have had tag soup from ID and MT.

Some day I would like to see the inside of that rifle's barrel.

Many posters here are not exactly reliable when discussing real bullet performance but you have a pretty good track record over more than a few years.

It's possible the Target Bergers with the thicker jacket might be a better fit for your rifle if you are wanting to experiment with VLDs a bit more.

Always good to see your opinion, Ted.

my best guess is that you hit something enroute you couldn't see. Odds would be really low to splash a very long 175 at 2600fps.

Gotcha.👍

Target Bergers may very well be my answer….problem is I am way more of a hunter than a shooter and just don’t put enough rounds down range to get a good feel for it all. I am pretty happy with the 135 grain classics, but have 400 139 grain Scenars sitting around for when I run out of the 135s.

Whacked a mountain griz at 200 yards and a bull caribou at about the same this year with the 135s, both going clean through and working just as advertised.

I can assure you the splash I had didn’t impact anything. It was on a doe in a wide open alfalfa field. Alfalfa was ankle high. She was maybe 100 yards at most. She ran about 125 yards to the wood line and stopped to look back before going in. I shot her again. When I gutted her there was only one hole through the rib cage going in and one hole going out. Golf ball size exit. Oddly enough, the first bullet was a disaster and the second worked perfectly as advertised.

It's boring when guys take YES for the answer.

That little bit of loss in BC is going to cost you at 1 mile.

Don't let Big Schtick know you are not using the using the highest BC projectile available. It will throw him into one of his blathering posts, maybe give him a coronary.

Although hitting a branch etc. would be a plausible explanation, I had a solid rest on sticks and the cow was in an open meadow with grass / weeds no higher than my shin, if that. My spotter confirmed before and after the shot (multiple times) that it was perfectly clear.

There was a second hole near the big entrance hole too, but I am assuming that was a tear from her effort to escape and jumping her from her bed 2x. It was about 2 inches long abd 3/4 Inch wide.

The entrance looked like it should have been an exit. I am thankful that she left an easy to follow blood trail, but she just didn't bleed out enough to find her dead. She dropped lots of thick clots too.

I will never hunt big game with those bullets again. What really annoys me is that shot at the cow was the very first time I shot at game with my newly put together 7 PRC and the factory 175 ELD X. I just did not have time to handload before the hunt.

And my son, using my 50 year old 700 '06 cleanly took a cow at 350 yards with a 168 TTSX handload. Same gun and bullet I killed a 339" bull last year.

I'm pretty sure it's magic

But they do seem to work really well...

Dang it, I said I wouldn’t but now I have to.

Cow elk a couple of years ago, 375 yards broadside. You can see the entrance above her elbow.



The 162 ELDX center punched the humerus just below the shoulder knuckle.



Pretty decent sized bone.




Through the rib cage, destroying lungs, found under the hide on the far side.



Tough to ask more from a bullet than that.

7mm Rem Mag, mv just shy of 3k.






P

Found the 25cal version to hold up well on several bears.

Rather stout bullet.

If we're talking bullets for the 7mm Rem Magnum I'm fine with 160 grain Accubonds or 145 grain LRX for elk size game. They both penetrate and kill well. They don't have BC's as high as the ELD bullets but they're fine out to 400-500 yards which is as far as I'm gong to shoot anyway. After all, I killed my last bull a month ago with a 168 grain TTSX from a .30-06 at all of 30 yards. It was DRT.

LRX and done

I have no experience with 175eldx although I’m keenly interested as I have a box I was going to work up loads for in a STW this winter. I will say I’ve seen a lot crazy things over the years. I saw a 180g partition at 06 velocity take a 90 degree turn on a mule deer hit behind the shoulder from about 45yds. I also remember a 200gr ballistic tip do the same thing on an elk at 400+. It hit the last rib on entry and it exited about 8” from the entrance. A small piece of jacket was found in the near lung which apparently slowed the elk enough that I was able to hit high in the neck as it walked straight away. My point is the improbable happens with living breathing flesh. Had I not experienced both, I’m not sure I would have believed either event.

Here is a pondering.

Does anyone think that the bullet design may have been tweaked a little by Hornady? QC issue? Been known to happen.

That is my thinking (mono metal) also, but I do have some 77gr scenars loaded for my 22-250. Have not shot anything but paper and steel with them so far. Maybe a deer or antelope is on the agenda for next year.

Recently on a long range hunting forum someone asked for a bullet recommendation for his 300 WSM for elk inside 500 yards. Since I have some experience with the round, including on elk, I offered my opinion the 180 NP would be ideal. I mentioned I'd used it on game out to 550 yards with stellar results. One member took offense and snidely remarked, "you do know this is a long range forum, right?"

People are more sheep than human at times... pass the Partitions.

I’ve said in other posts I may load up some new production bullets and try them again. My samples were all from the same case of early production factory ammo. From what I experienced, I attributed the issues to jacket inconsistencies.

Sometimes a picture is better than words... those are nice results IMO.

I think the point being made is that they struggle up close. At 375 yards, that bullet is likely going in the 2100-2200 FPS depending on the atmosphere where the shot was made.

I had excellent results with longer shots, but found them too explosive at closer ranges, especially on whitetail.

I’ve been told they have a harder core so while they are still thinly jacketed they seem to hold up well. Used the 220 from a 300 RUM and 139 from a CM and PRC on little old deer and didn’t note any sort of massive destruction you’d expect.

I'm paying close attention to the real world experiences here and in particular the guys with enough experience to make meaningful observations - Jordan Smith, beretzs, Mr. Burns, et al. I have precisely zero experience with ELD Xs or and VLD bullet on game near or far with the exception of one decent sized white tail and a 160 CX in the factory Hornady 7PRC load.

What is interesting to me in figuring out what cup and core VLD I might be comfortable with is Jordan Smith's positive experience with the 180 ELD M and Sakoluvr's and others' negative experience with the ELD X. I think Hornady's concern with the 175 ELD X was that it open up way out there at minimal velocity. Maybe they were scared from the Bergers' penciling through way out there a while back? And, they were afraid of the same thing happening with the 180 ELD M and maybe they didn't need to be. And, maybe the fix for the anticipated problem created a new problem. I'm almost inclined to go with the ELD M for a cup and core especially at the 2,812 f/s I get from the factory load. Mule Deer's rule for cup and cores, if I remember correctly, is 2,700 - 2,800 f/s at the muzzle. This seems to be beretzs' recommendation as well. I want a bullet that works near and far and based on the 160 CX at 15 yds, that or the 168 LRX are the easy button. And with BCs of .596 and .550 you're not giving up a lot.

But, check out these pics from a Guns & Ammo article by Tom Beckstrand (pics by Mark Fingar) that show the differeces in the ELD M vs. ELD X:



Anyway, thanks for all the info., guys!

One thing to remember, muzzle velocity doesn't mean squat. You have to plan for impact velocity. Due to different BCs, two bullets with the same muzzle velocity may have largely different impact velocity. The bullet at the target doesn't give two squirts what it started out as.

What is counter intuitive to most is that bullets get softer/hotter the longer they are zipping through the air.

This is why the plastic tips can burn off at long range.

The only Berger VLD "failures" (2) I have seen seen were close up with VLDs that had very little air space at the hollow point and didn't get any bone on the way in to the critter. Animals were recovered and the bullets didn't open enough to cause a good wound channel.

I have never seen a VLD fail to penetrate deep enough. Up close on elk shoulders the 6MM 105gr VLD works great.

Adding a plastic tip to the bullet means there will be expansion immediately on contact.

Nosler BTs got a redesign early on because of a lack of penetration. Now they work pretty well.

ELDXs have always had problems with opening much to fast. That does not mean they fail everytime but they fail way more than a good hunting bullet should.

Ted had issues with VLDs not penetrating enough on game and the same rifle destroyed ELDXs in the air.

The HPBT (Hollow Point Boat Tail) is the best hunting bullet design and not many know that Jack O'Connor used the Western Tool HPBT to cement the reputation of the .270 Win many, many decades ago.

Well, that's interesting. Thank you.

Elmer Keith and Hagel wrote about them quite a lot as well.

Seems like the Scenar is very similar...

Well the Scenar is a HPBT. Seems to have as good terminal performance as the VLDs but gives up a few point in BC and in competition it can't quite hang with the Berger for accuracy.

Elk won't notice and Scenar is a good choice for those who want Berger VLD terminal performance but don't want Yellow bullet boxes.

I got some 155’s to try in the Montana as well. Too many folks have been raving about them to not try em.

I've got 500 of them. Going to give them a whirl.

Of all the posts on this topic, this one seems to possibly provide a rock to look under. I'm wondering if engaging the rifling is damaging the jackets. Maybe cut vs button or a few 10s of thousands more/less in bore diameter somehow damages the thin jackets. I find it interesting that a single bullet can have such varied results as witnessed on this thread.

The berger vld et all have a very hard nose on them and no means to initiate expansion. That is why they penetrate a little ways and then come apart. At longer range they penetrate a bit further before comimg apart as there is yaw dependence with the design. Watch the Barbour Creek videos and you can clearly see the neck longer on long range impacts. OTM bullets have been studied super extensively and one of the main reason they are “ok” for military applications is because there is no design features to promote expansion/flattening. The fact they can fragment is apparently ok…

So, I have personally preferred the bergers when I want a high bc bullet for hunting since shallow penetration is less likely with this design despite thin jackets. There is some risk of no expansion but berger minimizes this by keeping their hunting bullet jackets thin. The tipped match bullets start expanding right away with no features to control expansion or retain weight. Not used them personally but lot of folks use them and high SD, bullet weight overcome some sins. The eldx does have a thicker jacket but also has a wider metplat / hp so will open more violently (you can see in the cross section). This may offset any advantage a slightly thicker jacket the bulley provides. Also not sure how soft the core is on eldx given they say expands lower velocity. Comparitively the ballistic tip has much thicker jacket and solid base and the TGK has much thicker sidewall so little tougher bullet but there is no bonding to keep the core from squirting out even if jacket holds together

Lou

I’ll be watching what they do for you. I even got a bunch of Varget since it seems like the go to.

Benchmark Barrels wanted me to test a 3 groove barrel in .264 Win Mag. Sent a test barrel and I contoured and chambered it up using the same throat dims I did in all the 6 grooves.

The concept was 3 lands that were twice as wide as the lands in my preferred 6 groove.

Shot fine for the break in as one would expect from a hand lapped Benchmark.

At about 150 rnds 140gr VLDs wouldn't reliably make it to 100yds. The load was a max velocity for VLDs, 3250fps.

Barrel looked great in the bore scope but the double width lands were to hard on the VLD jacket when engraving at max pressure.

ELD X or M have not impressed me at all. And it happened again this fall on a bear. Not at all impressed. The old amax I had better faith in.

kind of lucky I guide so I get to see more shot and shoot more than most. all of that has said no to those bullets on bigger game. Probably ok on deer but beyond that it would never be my choice.

Makes sense. Wonder if some of the poorer reports on these sorts bullets can’t be attributed to similar.

How about this feller? Same load the year before, I think. Maybe 125 yards. Again, straight down. Did the gutless on him because the pack out nearly killed me, so I didn’t see the internal damage. Hit him in the shoulder, though, no CNS involvement.



I might have a pic of the antelope I shot at around 75 yards with the 150 version out of my 7mm-08.





P

Here he is. Low in the pocket behind his shoulder.



Not a bad looking goat.




He didn’t go far.









P

what is the machete you gutted him with?....

Dunno, not my knife.




P

Amen brother.

Very informative thread. I concur with what someone had already said. The feedback provided from the likes of Beretzs, Jordan, Tiny, JB, Jay, and others is very helpful.

Correct me if this is wrong. I should be just fine shooting 143gr Eldx out of my 6.5 CM with an average of 2525 FPS for both near shots with a max distance of 500 yards for smaller furs.


As for the 175gr eldx. Like Sakoluvr, I’ve been living on the edge of frustration with my 7PRC being married to boxed Horn 175gr eldx ammunition.

Without rehashing the hash. I wasn’t seeing enough consistency in speed nor accuracy out of the 25 different boxes of the 175gr eldx I bought to feel comfortable taking them into the field. For the mortality of this bullet - It appears distance is your friend, as they perform best when they are slowed down.

Because I despise, finicky, in both bullets and women. I switched to reloading my own for the 7PRC using 168gr Berger VLD Hunting tips.

Sakoluvr, I’ll post up where I landed on loads for both once fired Horn brass and new ADG cases on JGray’s thread in the hunting rifle forum ‘7PRC Factory vs Handloads’, so I don’t jack your thread.

🦫

Just ordered 200

Well, I wouldn't say that it doesn't mean squat, but I get your point. Speed at the muzzle does mean that the bullet impact will never exceed that speed.

Bullets aside - that's a dang nice elk!

Yup, and stated velocity with factory Hornady 175 ELD X is a whole nuther frustrating issue. Ain't seeing it with my 26" Bartlein

I happen to have a Pre-64 270WCF that I am going to work up a partition load for. Seems an appropriate bullet for this rifle.

Looking at the ELD-X vs ELD-M pictures, a simple change to a smaller tip/expansion cavity would do wonders. Make it bonded and it could be fantastic.

Processing all my own meat for many years, I am not a big fan of soft/splash type design bullets. Exact reason I do not shoot animals with the .277 caliber, 145gr ELD-X anymore.

I have been taking game with everything from a .224 TTSX to a .358 TSX with never a bullet failure. I will continue to use them. As said, I used the 175 ELD X factory load 7 PRC because I just got the rifle from my gunsmith a few weeks before our Elk hunt.

Those barnes bullets are extremely reliable. Just be aware of the impact velocity and shoot accordingly.

Great looking bull! Congrats.

Took a cow elk with the 178 gr ELD-X from my 30-06 at 405 yards. My hit was a little low I think. Bullet shattered the leg bone going in, then into the heart.





Elk seemed about to fall, then rallied her strength and took off after the herd! Eventually we caught up to her and I finished her at closer range. I was amazed that she went a couple of hundred yards with one broken leg and a hole through her heart! Bullet not recovered.

In 2021 I smacked a fat muley buck at about 350 yards with the same rifle, using a 180 gr Berger Elite Hunter. Flattened him instantly, but again, needed a finishing shot when I got up to him.

Shot mostly Noslers for many years but have branched out a bit lately, just trying other bullets. Agree that the ELD-X seems to expand readily. I think I'm going to try the Hornady CX's from that 7 PRC I've been loading for. Loathe to give up any accuracy, and the ELD-X's have been very accurate... There's always Barnes too. Have the 140 gr TTSX's loaded up for my 7mm Rem Mag. They're fast & accurate.

BTW, great discussion. It was worth going through all the posts!

Guy

I have had great luck with the 143 ELD-X. I just killed a big mule deer with it this weekend. 630 yards. Bullet took out the spine and exited. No meat lost
I've had exits in every animal incuding elk at 250 yards.
2950 fps.

I shot a couple deer with ELDxs, both died where they where standing

Congrats on the Elk! And, that's some nice shootin, Guy.

Oddly enough the two animals I've seen shot with the 6.5mm 143 both stopped the bullet--but the specific circumstances definitely played a role.

One was a big mule deer buck in northern New Mexico, and the load Hornady's factory for the 6.5 Creedmoor. The range was just about exactly yards (I lasered it after the fact), with the buck standing in some Gambel's oak which blocked much of his broadside body. The only clear shot was the "high shoulder", and he dropped right there, then rolled around 30 feet down the steep slope. The bullet broke shoulders and the spine, and was found under the hide on the far side, retaining 60% of its weight. (The boned meat weighed exactly 100 pounds, indicating a live weight of around 300.)

The other was an even larger-bodied buck taken by my hunting partner with the same Hornady load at 311 yards, lasered before the shot. The buck was quartering away to the left, and the buck jump-kicked at the shot, then trotted 30-35 yards and fell over. The bullet had landed in the middle of the left ribs and was found under the hide of the right shoulder, just missing the the shoulder bone. It retained 75% of its weight.

I think if we framed things according to impact velocity, we'd be better off.

Drop_point, yes and that’s why I always want to know what the range is/was when having these discussions.

Also, what weight bullet is being talked about. I started this thread talking about the 175 gr ELD X. Comparing it to another weight ELD X or caliber does not give me any useful data. And to a lesser degree, what critter was shot.

I am looking to support my experience with a 175 gr ELDX .284 fired from a 7 PRC or 7 PRC velocity window. Impact on my cow Elk resulted in a splat at 247 yards.

I have not called Hornady to relay my experience, but plan too.

I'd be curious what they say.

A poster here said that the tech he spoke with did not recommend the ELD X for Elk and suggested the CX bullet instead.

People want super high bc and easy accuracy and that is accomplished with thin, concentric jackets and sleek pointy ogives. Hornady has figured out these features are more important to a lot of hunters than anything else. Both of these traits are not conducive to controlled expansion or weight retention. The eldx tries to bridge those traits into a hunting bullet but they will never be “tough”. Probably why Hornady recommends CX in some circumstances

Thicker jackets, bonding, and more complex bullet design can solve this problem but you will reduce BC some and the bullet will be more finicky to shoot as the bullet is more complex. The more complex and more steps in the design the harder it will be to keep things concentric and balanced. If want a bonded high bc bullet shoot an ablr or TA. It will likely have a little lower BC since longer for weight and may be harder to get to shoot but likely not come totally apart even if soft to expand fast and thin jacket at nose. Hornady has said over and over in various articles/podcasts they did not bond the eldx on purpose since bonding requires thicker jacket and in their process at least result in bigger groups.

Lou

That was me. That makes me doubly curious......

Certainly. The trouble is that impact speed is largely unknown and unmeasurable. Muzzle speed, however, is measurable and typically known. If everyone keeps diligent records about atmospheric conditions and shot distance, I would agree that impact speed is more relevant to terminal performance.

I have a couple of boxes of them
I'm still gonna work up fast.load for them. I shoot most everything thru the ribs we will see I'll bet at 2850-2900 at the muzzle that 200-400 they won't be a problem..mb

Ask yourself “Why are the store shelves full of Hornady products and woefully under stocked with other brands?”

👆

I sold a friend a #1 in 280 Remington a few years back- result of his first elk hunt with ELDX bullets- 175's I think was a cow at 742 yards, one shot.
He has since shot more moose and deer and elk with it with no issues and loves the bullet. He hand loads though, no factory loads.
Cat

With our shotmarker targets as long as it is supersonic,we get the velocity at the target.
Only a few Members I know want to shoot on them however, preffering to shoot steel at various distances .
Cat

Not so easy in the field on game.

If you can range the animal or even estimate its distance however, and you know your loads and drops, there is not much issue regarding velocity if the loads have been checked with the shotmarker targets.
What I have found however, (especially with the Shotmarkers) is many shooters do not want to shoot at a target on the range, simply because hitting a 3MOA steel is much easier to accept that actually seeing where the danged bullet went- or didn't, several times ! People just seem to have a hard time accepting that they are not really as good as they thin they are.
I don't use the ELDX bullets but know several hunters that do. I prefer monolithics. :>)
Cat

If a hunter knows the atmospheric parameter values, the muzzle speed, and the range, he can figure out impact speed. My point is that it’s much simpler to record the muzzle speed and range only, so most guys won’t be able to talk in terms of impact speed.

It's sorta amazing since an IPhone ap is about 5 dollars to get you speeds out to whatever you want. Yet figuring out impact speed bests us

Within reason of course.

Its possible to figure out if one does the work.

I completely agree. I’m not debating the fact that impact speed is more meaningful and relevant in the discussion of terminal performance (though muzzle speed is not completely irrelevant, as it influences rotational speed and bullet expansion), just that it’s a less pragmatic approach for many.