What do you guys think of the 338/06? Mostly as an elk cartridge.
Getting one in a Weatherby SBGM.

You'll like it.338/06 deserves to be more popular.......

A good round. However, most people seem to use it with 200-225 grain bullets, where it doesn't realy beat the .30-06 by any noticeable amount. With 250's it is a great mediem range round, but muzzle velocity limits the range.

JB

Doesn't it offer an improvement in momentum? I plan on using it with the 210gr partition. Thoughts?

You can get just about exactly the same muzzle velocity out of 210's in the .338-06 as you can 200's in the .30-06. This makes for a slight increase in muzzle energy (156 foot-pounds, if both are started at 2650 fps) and even less in momentum. Some people believe this, plus an extra .03 in bullet diameter, results in a noticeable increase in "killing power." Others do not. Count me in the do not camp.

JB

John, that's exactly how I see it myself, and in fact, I'd rather have a 30-06 with 200 gr. bullets than a 338-06 with 210s. For that matter, I'd rather have a 308 Win. with 180s much more so than I would a 338 Federal with 180s or 185s at the same approximate velocity.

In my opinion, if you want to use bigger, heavier .338 bullets, you need more capacity than is provided by the '06 case.

After all, you don't get something for nothing..........

AD

No, but it does provide greater frontal area. Something modern gun writers often forget about! Whelen and Keith would prefer the 338 bullet or the 35 caliber bullet, but I must confess they liked the heavier bullets for momentum.

Just think about it. If I had to face down something intent on eating my sorry azz, I'd much rather have a 338-06 A.I. with a 250 grain bullet than any 30-06 with any bullet!

If you are looking for greater distance, a 30 caliber, 200 grain bullet on the 30-06 really isn't that great. For distance, one actually needs a fairly big magnum. In the 33 caliber that means a 340
Weatherby! The 338 Winchester magnum just ain't all that when compared to it's 338-06 brother within reasonable distances!

These tired old arguments are what keep gunwriters employed?

Bullet diameters, bullet weights and severely limited parameters can make any cartridge appear better than another one! That's
the rabbit in the hat writers have used forever!

Get out a set of dial calipers, adjust it from .000 to .030, and then ask yourself if you REALLY think that the measurement you're looking at is going to mean ANYTHING in terms of killing power, in and of itself. If you do, you are dreaming..........

That extra .030" frontal area provided by .338 bullets doesn't mean squat in terms of killing power in and of itself. Frontal area can be controlled in a more meaningful way (more meaningful than .030", anyway!) simply via the process of bullet-selection.

Penetration (all other things being equal) is controlled by sectional-density more than it is anything else. Sectional-density means MOMENTUM, and yet, those who are ignorant of physics seem to be in the fog about that concept, and I've noticed a rash of it in recent months, and even from some gunwriters who should know better, but who are trying to sell new cartridge concepts to the public. But it's a known physical law that cannot be ignored any more than any of the rest of the physical laws governing ballistics can be ignored.

Where the .338 bore diameter really comes into it's own is with HEAVY bullets, and what is where that extra frontal area actually begins to mean something, as it allows the use of 225, 250, and 275 gr. bullets that really and truly are of high sectional-density, and that are of the right stuff for the bigger, heavier, tougher, and sometimes more dangerous class of big game animals that are the natural field of use for heavy bullets of high sectional-density. At that point, the .338 bullet-size honestly comes into it's own world, and with those big, heavy bullets, you need more case-capacity than is provided by the 30-06 in order to push those weighty projectiles fast enough for optimum trajectory and energy-delivery. It's really just a proportional proposition of matching bullet to case-capacity.

That's why, I'm sure, in 'Outdoor Life' some months back, Jim Carmichel rightfully deemed the 338-06 a rather illogical cartridge, and believe me, no one outside of possibly Jack Atcheson knows the 338 better from a hunting perspective than Jim does. And quite honestly, no one is better able to properly interpret ballistics than Jim Carmichel, either, and I know him well.

This is where the 338 Win. Mag. also comes into its own as an ideal, perfectly-balanced cartridge, with the right amount of case-capacity to get the most out of those heavy, high-SD .338 bullets, yet without so much powder room as to make recoil and noise truly challenging, or to require a big, heavy, long rifle. A better-balanced all-around .338 platform has never been devised to this day, and likely never will be.

And to prove beyond any shadow of any doubt that it really and truly is ideally-balance (much more so than the 338-06), proportionally, just as the 30-06 is ideally-balanced for .308 bullets, check this out:

The 338 Win. Mag. launches 210 gr., 225 gr., and 250 gr. bullets at the same speeds, almost exactly, at which the 30-06 launches 150 gr., 165 gr., and 180 gr. bullets. Now, if you don't think that's "magnum" performance, you're kidding yourself, pure and simple.................

AD

You can certainly run the 210's safely to 2800 fps with 4064 or Ramshot Big Game, which makes it a step up over the .30-06, plus you can still shoot 250's at 25-2550 fps. This is not a hit on the .30-06 it is more versatile, but if you really have no plans to shoot anything but bigger game the .338-06 is a nice round. This is no knock on the .338WM either, it is right in there with the .375 as a dead certain big game flattening round. For me at least it may be a little easier to get the Mag to shoot well. All of them seem to shoot MOA or less as do the 375 H&H's.

I'm of the camp the .03 does make a difference in bullet performance. SteveB got a bunch of wet phonebooks and tested bullets,the 338 180gr BT and the 225gr SST and I the 308 165gr BT and SST.

The 338 SST lost it's cores,even at 200m.I sectioned one,the outer metal in the nose was much thicher than the 308s,but not enough to over come the much better expansion of the 338.

jstevens,

Running a 210 at 2800 in the .338-06 is exactly like running a 200 at 2800 in the .30-06. It can be done, but not at conventional pressures.

Published data for the .338-06 (which is a SAAMI cartridge) tops out at about 2750 for the 210-grain bullet. This is a little higher than the fastest published data for the 200/.30-06--because the .338-06 is for some reason approved by SAAMI to slightly higher pressures.

When loaded to equal presures in equal barrel lengths, the 200/.30-06 and 210/.338-06 get the same muzzle velocity.

JB

downwindtracker,

One of the more depressing things I've done in recent years is test bullets in media that retains the wound channel. There is suprisingly little difference in just about any centerfire cartridges of approximnately the same bore diameter.

While bullet diameter certainly has some effect on game, it has to be LOT more than 3/100ths of an inch. In fact, I have never been able to see any diffrence in the way the .30-06 and .375 H& kill "deer-sized game," and have killed a lot with each. There is a difference on larger game, but it is not as large as most people would imagine.

One problem here is that most hunters never shoot enough of any size game with any one cartridge to actually get a grasp on its capabilities--and even fewer get that sort of experience with two or three cartridges. So a lot of opinions of "killing power" are based on maybe 3-4 animals, which means nothing.

The longer I hunt, the less I believe in much inherent difference between most big game cartridges. In recent years have decided that the bullet has far more effect on killing power than, say, the conventional spread of bullet diameter in "all-around" big game rounds from 6.5mm to .33.

JB

I agree but why is it when you subtract the .30 everyone around here acts as if the .277 bullet is like shooting an elk with a BB gun?

Personally, I don't think the 270 Win. is a poor elk cartridge at all. It's far from being a BB gun, and it's been one of my favorite hunting cartridges for many years. It's not IDEAL for elk in the same way that a 338 Win. Mag. is (the 338 isn't as ideal for mule deer as the 270 is, either! , but it's no punk elk cartridge by any means. I've hunted elk with the 270 Win. before myself and will again, possibly this coming season.

Two of my hunting mentors probably killed over 100 Oregon bulls between them with the 270 Win. over the course of long careers, and those men were hunters to take very seriously.....

AD

Can I kill an elephant if I neck down the 338 magnum to accept a sewing needle and load to 10,000 fps? I think the pea is under the center one!

Yes, I agree. After consulting 6 loading books and a powley computer, I've concluded that dead is dead!

This gun will be a primary elk rifle I own over a dozen deer rifles and know that some of my others would have worked great on elk but I just thought this would be a fun gun and caliber.

I am not one who is on the sectional density bandwagon. I for one understand the bullets expand (diameter changes) and lose weight and penetration depends alot on retained weight and momentum.

The factory load of a 30-06 180gr @ 2700 FPS has 69.43 ft lbs/s of momentum and 2914 ft/lbs of ME

The factory load of a 338-06 210gr @ 2750 FPS has 82.50 ft lbs/s of momentum and 3526 ft/lbs of ME

I am not a big fan of using ME as a predictor of effectiveness on game but the increase seems interesting.

I agree that the .03 bigger bullet causing a bigger wound channel may not cause a significant increase in killing effectiveness, but the differences come in other forms.

Exactly! The 338-06 is a fun cartridge. Go ahead and get one if that's what you want! There is NO NEED to justify the purchase with anyone! (Your wife, maybe? :D)

The Weatherby in 338-06 is rather light. It will be great to carry, but less fun to shoot. At game, in the field, however, it won't matter much!

Enjoy yourself! And don't worry so much about what the "experts" think! Someone once told me that an expert is someone who learns more and more about less and less until he knows everything about nothing!

LOL! Thanks. I really thought it would be fun.
I also have a M77 358win, 3-30-06's and a bunch of 7mm's from 7mm-08 to 7mm STW that could also be taken on an elk hunt.
Ya I have alot of guns that I practice with that are mild shooters.
I kind of wanted the gun to be light. Were I would hunt with it there will be alot of hiking and walking and probably some horseback riding if I went with one group I know of.
I have a leadsled for load devoloping and sighting in and will space out my field practice with this gun. I have a pretty good tolerance to recoil from the excessive shooting practice I do.

My only problem with a 338/06, is people wanting to shoot light bullets in it. Elmer said, and I feel the same way, the lightest bullet (other than for deer maybe) that should be used in a 338/06, is the 250gr. I use it with 56gr 4064, and get a honest 2500 fps. If we concede that most game shot is under 300 yds, and even more of it under 200, then long range trajectory not of much importance. I was talking to a bullet maker a few years ago, having just missed getting a box of 275gr 338 bullets, and they said that the 275 was even better than the 250s, and knowledgeable 338/06 and 338, users preferred them. While there are some light bullets that "might" work on Elk, Moose, I will stick with the 250s. the only exception to that being the Barnes tripple shock, which I might consider in the lighter weight due to it's design. Also, the bullet companies I have talked to do NOT recommend using the lighter bullets on Elk and larger stuff, and told me they were made for deer. To me, using a 338/06 with the 210 or so grain bullets on something like Elk, is like using the 06, with a 150gr bullet on Elk. The 250s do have more recoil, but if you can't handle the recoil, don't use the round. The criteria should not be, if hit with a perfect broadside shot, in the ribs, will the bullet perform, but, if the shot requires putting it into the rear of (or behind) the ribs, and angling to the off shoulder, will the bullet get there. Another thing to consider is, due to their shorter length (BC) the lighter bullets actually have worse trajectories over longer ranges than the heavier ones. But for all practical purposes, out to 300 yds, they are close.

So you don't think that a 210gr nosler partition @ 2750 would be a good elk round? Should I get 250's? Which bullet would you recommend.
What about the barnes TSX 225gr?

How about a 210 TXS and kill anythingn that walks or craws in North America the 338/06 will work just fine for you.......

For many years the gun writers, fickle all, touted the 210 Nosler as a good elk bullet. Ghost is right. Heavier bullets will do better, but the Barnes bullets "shoot heavier" because
they are longer for weight, and penetrate deeper due to design.

I personally would give the TXS 225gr a try!

My choice of a 338-06 came from articles by Geoff Steer in the December 1985 issue of Guns and Ammo, two articles by Layne Simpson, one in Shooting Times/September 1985 and Rifle May/June 1986.

The person who sold me most on the 338-06 was the late, and great, Finn Aagaard. On elk, Finn wanted a 250gr Nosler partition and on anything less, he preferred the Hornady 225gr spire point. Be aware that many 225 grain bullets now available
were not yet born in 1986 when Finn wrote his article in American Rifleman. Neither were many of our premium 250s for that matter.

Finn rebarreled his beloved 30-06 rifle into a 338-06. Put the barreled action into a McMillan fiberglass stock, and had this to say: quote, "And despite being a handy and portable piece of moderate recoil, it will strike a walloping blow, because the 338-06 is one of the finest medium-bore cartridges of them all." unquote.

When I built my first 338-06, it was still a wildcat. I figured that since I had to fireform every case, I would just go with the A.I. version since it looked better to my eye and required no more work than the standard version.

While I don't consider myself an expert by any means, I do share my views with Finn Aagaard. That's as good company as you will find anywhere! I've been using 225gr Hornady spire points exclusively since 1987. If I ever hunt elk, it will be with my
338-06 A.I. using a 250gr premium bullet, just like Finn suggested.

And not even Allen Day will challenge Finn Aagaard's opinions which were based on many years of African experience!

Here's my experience with the 338-06 and 3 elk. It falls under the 3-4 animal comment by mule deer so take it for it's worth.

For perspective, I have killed/witnessed elk shot with 243, 270, 270 WSM, 7mm RM, 30-06, 300WM, 338-06, 338wm and 375 H&H.

I owned a 338 WM, shot a couple elk with it. Sold it, no big deal. Worked a whole lot better than the smaller calibers IMO.
The elk just acted like they were hit harder. No objective proof just subjective field experience.

So when I went to get a dedicated elk gun again, I chose the 338-06.

I don't like belts on my cartridges. Personal preference.

And I studied the ballistics between the 30-06, 8mm-06, 338-06 and 35 Whelen. Here's my thoughts:
30-06 ho hum
8mm-06 not enough bullet choices & European diamter
338-06 looked real good
35 Whelen not enough powder capacity IMO.

I went with the 338-06 and have been extremely happy with the decision. I have used this cartridge for the last three elk I have killed. Using 210gr NP and Barnes 210gr TSX bullets.

Having fired 5 shots total for the three elk.
I recovered one NP that penetrated the chest cavity and ended up lodged in the lower leg bone about 4" above the hoof.
I had one 210gr TSX shatter the front ball (4 pieces) and socket joint on a bull elk at approx 270 yards. That bullet continued on through the lung, liver and exited the paunch. Severe quartering to 2nd shot.

I see absolutely no reason to go to a heavier bullet for big cervid type game. Unless you plan on using a plain cup and core bullet, then go with 225gr (SD 0.281).

If one ever felt the "need" to use a 250gr bullet (SD 0.313) out of a 338 caliber cartridge. The need is for DG, just not needed for elk/moose IMO. If I remember correctly Hornady lists 2500 fps for a 338-06 and 250gr bullets.

If I had a choice between a 210gr 338 caliber and 200 gr 30-06 (which I don't feel is best for elk). I would choose the 338 everytime. The 338 210gr bullet is going to hit harder ie dump more energy into the critter. Because of bigger diameter and lower, but perfectly useful SD (0.263). So it's going to hit harder

Not a doubt in my mind that the 338-06 is better than the 30-06 on elk.

I have one .338-06 -- a rebarreled Ruger #1B -- that shoots very nicely with factory fodder and is waiting for me to work up loads in 210 TSX and 225 Nosler Partition. I had it built because I wanted a rifle that would shoot heavier bullets fairly accurately, not punish me as much as a .338 Mag and still deliver slightly similar oooomph down range w/o a rainbow trajectory.

My .338-06 is a "niche" gun for me as I do not much need or have much faith in the .30-06's vaunted versatility from 120 grain to 200 grain bullets. (I only own one .30-06 a beater Mannlicher Schoenauer for 'woods work'.)

In the .338-06 I can use the high dollar 210s and 225 gr bullets for big Northern and Western deer, bear, and elk with all of the advantages cited above. And the 250s are there should I feel the eneed to use them. For smaller deer etc. I have scads of 7mmm rifles -- which I reaaly prefer -- from 7mm BR through 7mm STW.

Works for me.

1B

IMO the 200 gr. 30 cal should be compared to the 225-250 grain 338 bullets, not the 210.

2,750 and a bit more with the 210 in the 338-06 (22") is no big deal with H4350. In a 24" barrel, 2,800 is doable but probably the north end.

Finn Aagaard got 2792fps using the 210 Nosler over 58.0grs of IMR 4320. And that was with a 22 inch barrel. Layne Simpson gets 2829fps using 62.0grs of IMR 4350 with a 24" barrel. Geoff Steer got 2848fps with 60grs of IMR 4320 and a 22 5/8" barrel.

Many 338-06 rifles were built pre SAAMI specs, so magazine length, COL and freebore will probably not be consistant. As
most reloaders know, Weatherby gets added FPS by increasing freebore. A subject not brought into this discussion so far?

The conclusions one can draw, are that 338-06 cartridges are not consistant and freebore will make a load safe in one gun but also make it unsafe for one with less freebore.

Therefore, SAAMI specs not withstanding, each rifle is in a world
of its' own, and reloading data MUST be worked up for each rifle
carefully.


By the way, Nosler's 200gr 30 caliber bullet has a sectional density of .301 while Nosler's 210 grain 338 bullet has an SD of
.263 and the 250 grain 338 has an SD of .313.

So, yes, the 200 grain 30 caliber bullet is more like the 225 or 250 grain 338 bullets.

Not matter what cal and or bullet I am using this is the kind of performance I want!

Also some other good little tidbits in your post there CRS.

Thx

Dober

A few more comments, on the comments since my last:

There is nothing wrong with the .338-06. It is a fun cartridge to fool with, the reason I've owned three of them. But all I can do is relate why I don't think it is anything special on big game.

One reason is that for many years my main elk rifle was a .30-06, almost always used with 200-grain Nosler Partitions. This started back when the 200 Partition was a "semi-spitzer," with a relief groove in the middle. The .300/200 Partition killed every elk I ever aimed it it, quite expeditiously, and to this date I have never recovered one of the bullets. In fact, both my .30-06's (and my wife's .270's) have a better record than CRS's .338-06 on elk, in terms of bullets expended versus dead elk.

I got my first .338-06 in the middle of that .30-06 experience somewhere, and found it did not do any better, even with 250's. Also shot the .338 Winchester a LOT (exclusively for several years). After further further experience since, I have pretty much concluded that anything more than a 200-grain .30 bullet is pretty much unnecessary for elk--and I might go even lower.

I cannot recall Finn Aagaard ever using his .338-06 on elk, and I knew him fairly well. He did use a .338 Winchester on one, but eventually his elk experience led him to believe that the super-toughness of elk was an exaggeration (the same thing he believed about African game). He started using smaller cartridges on elk, and I believe he killed his last one with a .280 Remington.

Was also somewhat puzzled by somebody's comment that the .35 Whelen did not have enough powder room, so he had settled on the .338-06. Have long believed they are both based on the .30-06 case.

If you do want to fool with the .338-06 (and again, there is no reason not to) many people are convinced that the .338-06 AI is vastly superior cartridge. The fact is that neither the .338-06 AI or the .35 Whelen AI gains enough powder capacity to make any difference, because there is so little shoulder to blow out. If you really want to thump something harder, a .338 Winchester Magnum or 9.3x62 is a step above either, and much less hassle to load.

JB

I ran 210's at 2,780 no problem with H4350 a 22" bbl'd 338-06 I built in 1999.

Still, I'm a 30-06 man myself and find the round totally up to taking elk and simply can't accept the idea the 338-06 is a superior to the 30-06 as an elk round.

When it comes to Finn Agaard, I'm in complete agreement with him that the toughness of elk and African plainsgame has been greatly exaggerated over the years.

At our gunclub over the last twenty-some years, I've chronographed a good many rifles in 338-06, and most of the guys who were shooting that cartridge were loading it with 210 Noslers, but some with 250s. The vast majority of those rifles gave right at 2700 fps. with the 210s, and barely 2500 fps. with 250s, often with high pressure signs. There were a few rifles that gave close to 2800 fps. with 210s, but in every case the primers were dead-flat, and there was evidence of excessive case expansion. For every 338-06 that provides 2800 fps., I can show you a 338 Win. Mag. that will produce 3000 fps. with 210s, and 2800 fps. with 250s, which isn't exactly a common occurance with either cartridge unless they're both loaded too hot.

But that's what often happens when guys who like semi-offbeat cartridges try to make the basic 30-06 case do what a belted-magnum case does better. They'll load the '06 case too hot, then they'll pick out lowball factory numbers for the legit belted-magnum chambering they're trying to compete with to make the gap between the two cartridges look to be much closer than it really is. Oldest trick in the book..........

At the end of the day, there's a 200 fps. difference, at least, between a properly loaded 338-06 and a 338 Win. Mag.. The Win. Mag. will do all that the 338-06 will do, but the reverse is far from being true, plus the 338 Win. Mag. has become a standard world cartridge, and as such it very much stacks the odds in your favor if you shot ever become seperated from your ammo in Jo-Berg or Anchorage.

I've been loading the 338 Win. Mag. for 27 years, and I'm still waiting for someone to fill me in on exactly what sort of problems I'm supposed to be having with that belted case. What sort of problems an I supposed to be having that I haven't had yet?????????????

AD

Heh. Heh. I really don't either, Brad. I love my 30-06 dearly.
But I love my 280 even more. And I'd still use my 338-06 A.I.
for elk using a 250gr nosler.

Mule Deer said it right when he said he couldn't see much difference in killing power on most game from the 6.5 to the 33.
The overlap and duplication of cartridges is simply amazing.

I could get rid of my rifles all but the 280 or 30-06 and still hunt the rest of my life a happy camper!

Different strokes for different folks! And the "my dog is bigger than your dog" syndrome is just plain....well, FUN!

Isn't it amazing how we all agonize over things rifle that don't in the final analysis mean squat? Feeds a lot of scribes though!

Allen, I think Finns conclusions were that although the 338 mag provides 100fps more than the 338-06, it didn't matter much in the long run, and in the field especially.

His conclusion was, and I agree with him, that if more was REALLY needed, then the 340 Weatherby made more sense.

Settle down there, boy, no one has insulted your mistress!
And that's what is at play here isn't it? You have had a long affair with a particular cartridge and can't stand the fact that some of us see her as butt-ugly!

Hey, big boy, I don't like Winchester model 70s either.
Watch the blood pressure now!

My experience shows a solid 150 fps advantage to the 338 WM over the 338-06 with all bullet weights in 22" barrels. Not monumental but personally, if I'm going to use a .338 bore anymore, it'll be the 338 WM.

Let's compare apples to apples:

The fastest muzzle velocity I can find in any my fairly substantial collection of reloading manuals for the SAAMI-spec .338-06 (submitted to SAAMI by A-Square) is about 2750 fps, in a 24" barrel (Hodgdon Annual Manual). This is at 62-63,000 psi. (The old hardcover Hodgdon manual has one load that went over 2800 fps, but evidently it was a misprint, or changed when retested.)

In contrast, the highest 200-grain pressure-tested .30-06 load comes from the Nosler manual: 2688 fps, also in a 24" barrel. But the SAAMI limit for the '06 is 60,000; most pressure-tested loads go around 57-58,000 to stay under the limit.

Weatherby does not ream a freebore into rifles chambered non-Wby. rounds, whether the .270 Win., .30-06 or .338-06.

JB

I can't agree with the 100 fps. difference at all, and I have a great deal more experience with the 338 Win. Mag. on game, and I have owned far more rifles in that caliber that he did. But my respect for the common-sense Mr. Agaard is high, I miss him greatly, and I agree with most of his observations very much.

AD

the 338/06 and near twin 35 whelen become much more effective with the 250 grain bullets, in my experiance, on ELK.
BOTH calibers have a big following and are well thought of by the members of our ELK camp, BUT what many people fail to realize is its the bullet construction and its expansion/penetration rate at the fairly low 2350-1900fps range that most bullets will IMPACT AT that has a huge effect on the results youll get.
remember your usually launching them at below 2600fps, probably closer to 2500fps
in the 35 WHELEN the 250 speer seems about ideal from my experiance
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=000212453

in the 338/06 , these work ok, but are a touch slower ecpanding than ID prefer

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=000212408

If your thinking of using the 200-210 grain bullets youll probable be better off with a 30/06

Just use the 340mag and the rest is moot!

I still say that dead is dead, whether it came by a 270 Winchester vs a 340 mag, or anything in between! Does anyone have an idea how retarded it sounds outside this discussion when one says the 270 is a great elk cartridge, and then gets rabid while insisting the 338 Winchester is superior to the 338-06 on elk?

Why not just use the 50 caliber since it is clearly better than all those under duscussion? Just how much is enough? Geeze,
I love this site. It beats going to the zoo everytime!

Don, you taken any elk with any of them?

"Just use the 340mag and the rest is moot"

GEE why didn,t I think of that..........
maybe the 250 grain bullets will work in that???
damn.....now that I check,
THATS WHAT IVE been using for 30 plus years with EXCELLENT RESULTS!
and the 338/06 and 35 whelen as back-up rifles most years....
my 35 whelen slide action remington has seen more dead elk than most of the camps rifles as its been the camp back-up plan for many years.
I do about 90% of the reloading in camp and theres 4 guys whos main elk rifle is a 338/06 or 35 whelen so I get to see those results constantly

Guess that was my point about the 210/338 vs 200/308 comparison... I really don't think it's an apples-apples comparison.

Also tend to think a lot of Nosler's data is fairly conservative for the 338-06 out of deference to the myriad of custom (suspect) 338-06's created for decades prior to its legitimization.

Also, Nosler doesn't show their pressure data like Hodgdon so I'm not sure how you know what pressures they're operating at.

All I can report is what I found in my barrel... 2,750 with a 210 was very doable.

I wondered, how long before that one came up? No, Brad I haven't.

My only elk was taken with a 264 Winchester magnum just outside Sandpoint, Idaho. Took a very big whitetail just outside of Colville, Washington with a 280 Remington. Have taken many good sized deer with a 270 Winchester and a 30-06.
My trophy wall has only three deer. One a 154 typical 5X5 and two typical 5X5s both over 162. I'm not much of a hunter by many standards, but I can read at a 9th grade level and the internal/external balistics math is not too far above my educational level.

My hunting life started off with a simple, slightly modified military 7X57.

I could spend the rest of my life with either the 280 or the 30-06 and be quite happy. You have mostly used the 30-06 for your elk hunting, right? Why the move to a Kimber WSM? 30 caliber too, wasn't it?

I don't hunt elk much. Just didn't care that much for it? I do greatly respect your prowess as an elk hunter and appreciate your annual posts. Your photography is splendid too!

My only point in all this is just that if a 270 will do the job, what is so wrong with the 338-06? Well nothing, of course!

So why does everyone seem to be in hormonal stage of banging antlers? If the 338 Winchester magnum is so much better than the 338-06, then doesn't it stand to reason that the 340 Weatherby is even better yet? Answer: Not if she isn't your prom queen!

I like the scribe statement of "use enough gun". Ah, but the eternal question, "What is enough?"

Since you're obviously speaking to me, I'll respond..........

I didn't say that the 270 Win. is a GREAT elk cartridge. The 30-06 is a better elk cartridge than the 270 Win. is, and any of the 7mm, 300, 8mm, 338, and 375 magnums qualify as GREAT elk cartridges. I DID say that the 270 Win. is not a PUNK elk cartridge (something like a 243 Win. qualifies as "punk"), and I base this on my own observations, experiences, the experiences of vetran elk hunters I grew up in the midst of, plus a lifetime of living and 30 + years of hunting in a top western elk state (Oregon -- not Ohio), and I've hunted elk in a number of others as well, on both a guided and unguided basis. I've bent over a lot of dead elk in my life, believe me..........

Because of where I live, I've also been around a great many rifles that were purchased for use against elk, and with the large number of elk hunters at our gunclub (3000 members) I've seen just about everything used against paper, I've listened to countless blow-by-blow stories of elk hunts, and I've run scores and scores of bullets from various rifles over the chronograph. After a while, connecting the dots becomes less difficult than is was when you were 20 years old.

There's no question that the 338-06 will kill elk, and it will kill them well. But it won't kill them any deader or any faster than a properly-loaded 30-06 will, plus it's not as good or as practical an elk cartridge as the 338 Win. Mag.. And logistically, it's far inferior to any well-established, standard factory chambering (the 338-06 might be SAAMI now, but it's far from standard), especially if you intend to hunt far from home as well as within driving distance from your loading bench. It will do nothing that the much more established, versatile, and practical 338 Win. Mag. won't do better, pure and simple.


AD

No, I wasn't really talking to you. I was actually talking to Brad. You are not the only person I've encountered who thinks highly of the 270. Hell, my cousin would probably try to kill an elephant with the damn thing. He's read too many articles about how elephants can be killed with the 7X57!

You see, I respect Brad's achievements. He's posted them here for us without a condescending attitude.(Well mostly) I really don't give a tinker's damn about you or your opinions. I just like to pull your chain once in a while since you are so full of yourself.

You readily take the bait each and every time. Pontifications from arrogant horse's azzez tickle my funny bone! I think guys like you tend to forget we all have accecss to reloading books and computer programs, right along with chronographs and the such.

Where one lives makes no matter. I can easily afford to hunt
anywhere I desire, and for any game animal that strikes my fancy.
There is only one animal that I still have a desire to hunt other than my annual whitetailed deer. That would be the billy goat. Brad posted a picture this year that melted my heart.

But alas, at 62 years of age, I seriously doubt I'm physically able to make such a hunt? I don't read rags anymore. I can get wall-to-wall commericals anywhere! I would like to see Brad make the trek, and report it here on the campfire!

I'd have you on ignore, but you are so damned funny! And the 338 Winchester magum eats the dust of the 340 Weatherby! And the point is? No, don't answer that. I've laughed hard enough for one day!

We miss you over at AR.

I take all of that as a high compliment, even though it was not intended to be such.........

Brad is a true westerner, and a veteran elk hunter of great and consistent experience. He knows rifles, he can surely get up the mountain, and he knows how to hunt and cut it on his own under all conditions. I don't see anything coming out of him that's outlandish, untrue, or impractical in any way. I never have. What DOES come out of him speaks of veteran experience, which does not always digest well, I know.

AD

I believe that logic would lead the elk hunter to a cartridge in which he has confidence. I've killed more than a few elk with both the .30-'06 and the .338-'06; they both work and work exceedingly well. My personal feeling, over many elk, is that the .338-'06 has the edge. Your mileage may vary, depending on the number of elk slain with both and prejudice if you have not killed lots of elk.

To some degree, it depends on the individual rifle, as well. Some rifles just have the "magic." They fit perfectly and seemingly kill way out of their league. I have a 7SGLC that shoots 120 Ballistics at 3,250 fps that handles like a fine English shotgun and is my lucky elk rifle. Bulls get up and the SGLC lays them right down....pronto.

So, is the 7SGLC a great elk rifle???? I can state that in my hands that my individual rifle sure as heck is.

Beyond all of this, the hunter himself is by far the most important element. We used to have rich-dudes show up in elk camp who never shot from year to year; guess what, they failed to kill and one of us grunts ended up running down their bulls and killing them. I cannot stress enough that the hunter should train year around, he should get lots of trigger time, he should practice in field positions (archery targets are great) and he should know the animal and scout, scout, scout.

The hunter is WAY more important than the cartridge or rifle.

Guns don't kill critters, I KILL CRITTERS!!!!!

Steve

I think you might misunderstand if you think my post was to voice anything but admiration for Brad's hunting prowess. It
digests well for me 99.9% of the time. No one can agree 100%
without turning into a condescending butt kisser!

7SGLC = Simpson's Great Little Cartridge? (7mm-308 improved)

Geeze, Where you been, Steve? You voiced what I was thinking better than I ever could! Rifles are indeed an entity unto themselves, especially wildcats. And I still regard the 338-06 a wildcat since most rifles of this caliber were built pre SAAMI specs or pretty much disregard them. Now as to the hunter being the most important element, WDM Bell proved that point endlessly.

BTW, I noticed that my rifles didn't shoot any better in Idaho and Washington State than they do here in Ohio? Must be something wrong with them?

I'd still use my 338-06AI for elk. Not because it's better, but just because I WANT to!

Only thing I don't understand is why scout if you are hiring a
guide? Not everyone lives in hunting land. Some of us who reside in less than desireable states for elk might have a problem with that one?

However, Ohio does have some of the biggest deer found anywhere in America! Yes, scout, scout and scout! Right after finding
a good place to do so!

if there is any value in a feral hog it would probably be as a ballistic testing platform.. i've used a larger variety of rifles and cartridges because of the availability of huntable populations of hogs...
as to the "unkillable" reputation of the feral hog, well..... ...john w

My last two hogs illustrate the hog killing reputation. I shot
both with a 280 loaded up with 160gr partitions. The first one dropped like a rock. Big puzzy died instantly. The second was
shot pretty much the same distance, in the same place at about the same angle. This sucker got up, located me each time and tried his best to get even. Took four shots to make him quit!

Now does this mean the 280 with the Nosler partition is a great hog cartridge or a complete dog? I guess I'l have to slay a
couple thousand to answer that question adequately? Does the experiment still count if I switch to Speer 175 grain Grand Slams?

Tell us more about the cartridges you used, JohnW. And how well they did in your opinion and experience. Inquiring minds like to know!

As I remember: Finn Aagaard compared the .338-06, .35 Whelen, and the 9.3X62 and stated he liked all three, but went on to say that if he thought he needed more than his .30-06 he would probably go to his .375 H&H.

That he did, Lad. That he did! But that's only because he already had the 375. He didn't own a 340 Weatherby!

You know, I used to really enjoy the Campfire, but, it is going downhill rapidly with uncalled for personal slurs instead of comments based on reasonable courtesy, mutual respect and an appreciation for other's experiences. I find this type of behaviour both disgusting and self-revealing; it strikes me as based on an infantile jealousy of those who actually DO and HAVE DONE what they comment on.

I will just say that Allen Day is one of about the top five consistently knowledgable, experienced and practical posters on ANY guns/hunting/backpacking forum I have visited. To use terms such as ...horse's ass...in reference to him is pretty pathetic, IMO, and Accuratereloading is a forum that pales in comparison to the Campfire, although there are MANY great people there.

I ALSO live in GREAT game country and I was BORN, RAISED and WORKED with wildlife, fish and forests most of my 60 years. SO, I HAVE bent over the odd animal and probably seen more REAL wilderness than most here. Yet, I find that AD, JJHAACK, .458 Win. and a few others are CONSISTENTLY courteous, respectful and base their opinions on huge realtime experience....finances have SWFA to do with it....and I am not poverty-stricken, either.

There are places here in BC, where an older, flatlander CAN get a very decent RMGoat, the outfitters in the Similkameen/Boundary country take some fine ones every season and the GOABC website can give details on this. WE have to "draw" for these and quotas for non-res. hunters/GOs are being cut due to resident pressure and the Indians, so, anyone who wants a goat CAN get one.....unless they have MY consistent "bad luck" on goat hunts.

Very simply, we should all be friends here, NOBODY is the ulitmate hunter, me especially, so, slagging is kinda foolish, eh?

my favorite, and the one that i carried and used more than any other, was a ruger 77r in .243... i started with the speer 90 spitzer and had great luck... for many years, though, my go to hunting load was the sierra 85 bthp loaded fast with dupont 4895...
hogs can be difficult to hunt in daylight, and difficult to shoot in thick cover.... if well shot, they generally expire quickly...

the actual list of cartridges i've used on feral hogs would be quite long, including the .22 rf and the .45-70 (one hog with each... pretty much equal results), and the 12 and 16 ga. shotshell loaded with 6s

M/D,
I have read your replies on this post and would like to reiterate some of your points and respectfully disagree with some as well.

I have owned many 338-06 rifles since 1981 and have taken many animals including a half dozen elk with them.

You say the 200 grain 30-06 and the 210 grain 338 would be launched at the same velocity at same pressure, or words to that effect, and I will disagree with that. The area of the .308" bullet is .075 square inches, the .338" is .090". At the same pressure the 308 has 4500 pounds of force and the 338 has 5400 pounds. That is an increase of 20%. That 20% will relate to an increase of bullet weight of 20% . A .338 caliber bullet of 217 grains is the equal of a .308 caliber bullet of 180 grains, in both SD and area. The 200 grain .308 has the same sectional density of a 240 grain 338 bullet. Bullets with equal SD respond equally to the same pressure. We would have to consider the greater friction of the greater area of the 338 circumference but still the pressure vs velocity of the 200 grain .308" bullet is not comparable to the 210 grain .338" bullet. The 225 grain would be a much close match to achieve velocity comparable to the 200 grain bullet from the 30-06 case, and in my experience it does.

All this is based on the same volume of powder of the same burning rate, which doesn't work, the 338 uses faster powder so it balances out, and my test and experience does play this out.

All that aside, this is a great caliber. As I compare it to the 30-06 for elk, my experience with the '06 has been with 180 grain bullets, and I see a difference with the 338-06 with either the 210 or 225 partition, but nothing to write home about. I've never had a problem with the '06 either but don't push it beyond what I consider it's capabilities. It's (338-06) advantage seems notable for bigger animals at closer range.

Now as to velocity of the 210 partition in the 338-06, it is prety much a 2750 fps round on the top end. I've never got a 30-06 200 grain to that velocity.

The Weatherby/Norma ammo with the 210 partition is advertised at 2750 fps and is close to that. My 23" M97 gives 2727 fps and my 24" Sako/Shilen rifle will give 2731 fps. My handloads with RL-15 are loaded to the same level. As for the AI version, I have one that is a very good shooter but I would not do that again. It is a good rifle but there is no ballistic advantage. I've owned four of these in AI and none would get a 210 partition above 2800 fps. (at pressures where I like to run it) I think the problem is powder. RL-15 is too fast for the AI case and H4350 is too slow. Maybe there is a powder out there but there is no real advantage. A 210 partition at about 2750 is a great load, just as a 30-06 with a 180 partition at 2750.

Regards,

OK, This is where I should have posted my long reply but in reference to the camp.....I'm in the 'do camp'.

Here again I disagree with the 200gr .308 vs the 210gr .338, see above. The 225 gr 338 and the 200 gr 308 will launch at the same velocity and pressure. 30-06, 180 partition, 23" m97, 2620 fps 56.0 grains of RL-19. 338-06, 225 partition, 23" m97, 2625 fps, 58.0 grains H4350. Try it sometime. Both these loads are under 60,000 psi.

I think the AI advantage is not ballistic,rather a wider choice of powders(4350 class) for the same velocity.

As a moose hunter I tend to favour expansion over penatration. Moose head for the swamp when they feel bothered.

Yep. I think that's it. 4350 for the AI and RL-15 for the standard. With 225 or 250 grains the AI shows more advantage.

Murphy--

Or we can approach it in other ways:

1) One of "The Rules" I wrote about last year in HANDLOADER: Any increase in bore area allows an increase in velocity of one-quarter that increase in cases of the same size, at the same pressure.

The .338 has just about 20% advantage over the .30 in bore area. Thus a 5% advantage in driving the same bullet weight. This means that if a .30-06 can push a 200-grain bullet to 2688 fps (Nosler data), then the .338 can push a 200 to 2822 at the same pressure.

Now, since we are talking a 210 rather than a 200, we invoke another rule: potential muzzle velocity increases or decreases at half the difference in bullet weight.

Do the math and we find the .338/210 can be given 2754 fps (210 + 200/2 divided by 210 x 2822). This happens to be just about exactly what several loads in the Hornady manual suggest.

Thus the .338-06/210 has about a 66 fps advantage over the .30-06/200.

You can do the math with these formulas (and the others I listed in the article) and come within a few fps every time. That is because they were derived by crunching the numbers from a bunch of pressure-tested data. They work.

2) Now that we have established that, rather than relying on what any handloader says he can "get" out his rifle (I have gotten 2750 fps out of a 200 in a .30-06, and 2900 from a 180--in a 22" barrel with "no pressure signs") let's look at what happens downrange. Within 200 yards the .30-06 load has slightly passed the .338 in velocity; beyond that the advantage increases. This according to the BC's in the Nosler manual: .400 for the 210 .338, .481 for the 200 .30.

Add to that the fact that the 200 .30 Partition will out-penetrate the 210 .338. This is not just theory based on sectional density, but fact based on a lot of testing and hunting. In media the 200/.30 will generally outpenetrate the 210/.338 by 25%. I have also seen the 210 .338 stopped by a 150-pound whitetail buck on a quartering shot. I have seen exactly one 200 .30 Partition stopped by any animal, on a rear-end shot on a raghorn bull elk.

So, we are right back to where I started in the beginning: there just isn't all that much difference between the .338-06 with lighter bullets and the .30-06 with heavier bullets.

But all of this "ballistic gack" (as Mark D. would put it) is really beside the point. If we want a .338-06 we should get one. The whole point of this, if we are not one of those hunters who has one rifle for all his big game hunting, is fun and games with various toys.

Personally, beyond rifles chambered for a few cartridges that I find most useful, I am these days far more interested in a new rifle because of the RIFLE, not the chambering.

If you are looking for a good powder to try in the .338-06 between RL-15 and H4350, Ramshot Big Game is an excellent one. I have found it to work great in a number of cartridges when that particular "powder gap" occurs.

JB

I've always appreciated your posts, Kute. But Geeze, buddy, your post is rather like the pot calling the kettle black!

You are the most opinionated guy I've ever met(?) and quickly shout down anyone who doesn't agree with you. And you are perhaps too quick to use the ole I've done this and that my whole life stuff.

Now I appreciate your grumpy mannerisms, Hell, I guess I even like them. My personal dispute with Mr. Day is not about the quality or even the accuracy of his claims, but rather the
"I know it all" attitude I feel whenever he posts. I
suppose the term I should have used was "pompus azz"? Can't help it. That's the way I perceive his posts?

Jealousy? I doubt it! I too was born and raised in the mountains. Lived in California, Idaho and Washington State
out west.

I am familiar with, and have hunted in some pretty rugged country myself. I just don't wear the fact as if it were equal in importance to the medal of honor.

Now please don't take this personally, but I have absolutely NO desire to hunt in your beloved Canada! I don't like the rules, and I don't like the laws. And from what I've read, I probably won't like the guides or outfitting services either. Too many Americans who post on the sites I frequent have been taken to the cleaners during their stays up north. This is no reflection on you for sure!

I too used to like the campfire. But nobody likes those who pontificate. I like you well enough to abide by your wishes.
I will not allow myself to speak out as to how I feel about people personally.

We seem to have about half a dozen people who have done everything and know everything, so my posts won't add much to any discussions. From this point on, I'll try to just lurk and laugh! Enjoy.

Regards,

Don

Sorry, Don, maybe I spoke a tad too brusquely, but, it just seems to me that there has been a lot of nasty rhetoric here lately. I have no desire to see that continue or anyone stop posting AND, everyone KNOWS that I am probably the most mellow old fellow on this forum!!! Right??? Ya better agree!!!! Or else!!!

If, I thought that you were a fool or an azzhole, I wouldn't have bothered with my comments, but, I do find AD's posts very enjoyable, informative and I have never found him pompous or demeaning toward anyone. Mind you, my attitude is due to an impatience with those who post on places/things with which they have no "hands-on" familiarity and AD certainly backs up his posts with experience, as I try to.

...Grumpy..., nah, I'm a SWEET old geezer, own a few measly guns and even backpack hunt; I just prefer to discuss issues with some civility and not use un-needed slurs.

You CAN be ripped-off here in B.C., BUT, there ARE honest G/Os who give you fair value for your buck, the real problem is Indian slaughter due to "rights", pizzpoor management due to lack of funding and scumbag poachers killing large numbers of animals....just like in the U.S.A. But, you might like a hunt here with somebody in the Similkameen as it's warm, dry, lots of fruit, wine and very "laid back"; a good hunt for we old pharts!

Not a problem, Kute. I did not take your post as a personal affront. Most of the people that I always enjoyed discussions with, or respected their points of view, seem to have moved on.

Probably time for me to do the same. I'm considering parting out all but one or two of my guns. Most of my younger friends
are patiently waiting in the wings for them, so it should be a relatively easy task. My son-in-law will gladly take my reloading equipment off my hands.

Gun ownership in a PC country is just more than I care to put up with nowadays. Discussion among gunnies on the ole net is just about as bad. I don't find much good-natured cameraderie any more on or off the net, just those who pontificate their positions/opinions. It's pretty much a waste of time for anyone else to post with these guys around.


Laid back for me nowadays seems to look more and more like "not at all". I'm too old for the modern versions of hunting. It used to be fun, depending on who I went with. Now it's more a pain in the azz! Seems we need a lotto ticket and a lawyer to hunt nowadays?

With all the nasty bickering in the gun community, I don't think gun ownership will last much longer for the average guy. I know I've been losing my gusto for the process lately. I guess it gets that way when you begin to dislike your allies!

I need to find a nice fishing site, but then I guess there won't be much there other than a different pissing match?

Just arranged for a week long trout fishing outing with the Mrs.
at the end of May. A trip to the lawyer should have all the regulations explained for me.

I owned a boat a couple years back. Used it quite a bit on Lake Erie, but after a couple of visits and interrogations from Homeland Security, I sold the boat before I decided to shoot one of these jack-booted thugs with a flare gun!

Perhaps it's just time to sit back and enjoy all the memories
of quality hunting/fishing I lived through. Much of what passes today just turns me off and doesn't seem to be worth the effort!

Regards,

Don

hey don,

still plenty of cameraderie in hunting... there is no hunting on the internet... it's been tried and found wanting...
what we have here is a site where guys can share dialogue and trade in ideas... valuable, in some respects, but not anything like hunting...

Big Game works great with 225gr bullet. N-550 is another powder in that "between",it's a bit faster and works well with 210gr.Has anyone tried IMR 4007 yet in this cartridge?

Thanks for spelling cameraderie for me. Too lazy to check the dictionary!

A high clash of ideas and a low clash of ego's is always best I would suggest would you guyz agree?

Mark D

My .338-06 goes 2800 fps on the button with both Big Game and 4064 and the 210 TSX at 61000 on my pressure trace. It is a 24 in. barrelled FN. Personally I think this is easier to do than 2800 in the .30-06 200 grain, has always took some work to get 2800 with 180's usually in a 22 in. barrel. That said, no animal will ever be able to argue the point after being hit with either one. The availability of 250's at 2500-2550 fps does move it into another catagory IMO. I will agree that from 7-08 caliber up, you have to hit a .338 WMag before you notice much difference in effect on game. In my experience the .338 and .375 are noticeably different on larger game, plus make a better whacking sound when they hit, which I like to hear!

THAT is one of the BEST posts I have read here, or, on any forum. After awhile, the slagging that happens becomes so tiresome that many good people just stop logging on and this is, IMHO, a sad aspect of this type of forum.

It IS dammed hard to communicate on the 'net and often people will take comments in a different way than they were intended; this can be due to various factors and it certainly is not limited to anyone in particular.

Yeah, MORE experience-based anecdotes, enjoyable wrangling over the VAST difference between the WONDERFUL .338 bullets and those "sad" .358 wimpy missiles and LESS slagging of each other!

I really empathize with Don concerning his feelings about what's happening with hunting, guns and our two countries and I sometimes think about doing what he is considering....things are pretty grim for gunnuts/hunters in our "free" societies.......seem ok for dope dealers, perverts and terrorists, tho'.

John,

Missed your article. Your expalnation is well detailed and I agree pretty much down the line but a lack understanding of the one quarter of the area difference as it would relate to velocity, etc. This in a case of the same volume, bullet of the same weight and at the same pressure. The bullet is accellerated down the barrel by the force exerted upon it and if that force is increased by 20%, ( the force is 60,000 psi and an increase in area of 20%) why would there only be a velocity gain of 5%?

I agree with your reasons for a new caliber and such and agree what velocity someone else measured doesn't mean much. I guess I haven't pushed a 200 grain down a '06 barrel very much.

Murphy,

Let's do a little more math. If the force on the bottom of the bullet was increased by 20%, then the muzzle velocity of the .338-06 with a 200-grain bullet could theoretically be increased to 3225 fps, given a muzzle velocity with the '06 of 2688. (1.2x 2688 = 3225.) This obviously does not happen.

There are too many other factors at work: bullet friction, what is called expansion ratio, etc.

The formulas I worked out for various ballistic problems are very simple, done by crunching results from tested data. Except in pretty general ways, due to a minimal college background in chemistry and phsyics, I am not able to explain everything involved, though other people have. And from what they have provided me, you would not be very entertained by reading it anyway.

The basic thing I have found by crunching loading data is that we do not get as much out of various things (case capacity, bore diameter, etc.) as many of us would like to believe.

I got into this aboyt 10 years ago BECAUSE in a bunch of reading of gun magazines (some pretty scientific) I could not find a "hard" ratio of increased case capacity to muzzle velocity. Through a lot of computer work with empirical data, I found the ratio was just about 1/4: Increasing powder capacity by any amount results in just about 1/4 that amount in muzzle velocity.

Otherwise (and related to what we just went through with the .30-06 and .338-06) the .300 Rem. Ultra Mag would get twice the velocity of the .308 Winchester. This is obviously not the case, as the .300 RUM does not get 5400 fps with a 180-grain bullet (about twice the muzzle velocity possible with the 180 from a .308, even in a 26-inch barrel).

The article appeared about 2 years ago, I believe.

JB

Ok, I'm following along now. Yes I understand the friction will be greater due to the greater surface area of the 338 bore and expansion ration certainly comes into play. Expansion ratio would be a big factor and would reduce velocity even further if we used the same burning rate of powder. With the 338 we use faster powder and of course that is matching burn rate to the bore volume. The swept bore volume increases much more rapidly with the 338 vs the 308.

I guess I can accept the 1/4 of the area for a velocity gain since there are many factor at work here that I can't define or quantify. Actually if the 30-06 can launch a 200 grain at even 2700 fps that would get the 200 grain 338-06 to 2835, which it will do. So maybe this is just shooting from the key board. We agree on the velocity that can be achieved from the 338-06 and its various bullet weights, maybe I just haven't loaded enough 200 grainers in the '06.

I think the 300 RUM vs the 308 has an effeciency factor in there that we can calculate, however. In other words the amount of powder that is consumed at the all burnt point (%) is less for the RUM than the 308. Just a thought.

My background is radar engineering, I just pick up what I can in ballistics. I can do the math, though. Thanks for the response.

So should I just use the 210 partition on deer and find a different elk bulllet? Is the 225 TSX beatable? Or should I just grab some 250 Np's or TSX's? I do have a BAR safari 388WM. I just thought this gun would make a better hunter and be more durable.

Call Tye at Barnes (800-574-9200) and he will tell you that in thier test in shooting ballistics gellatin that the penetration difference between the 210 TXS and the 225 is a moot point and the 210 wieght suits the 06 size case better in my opion,with the TXS you can shoot a lighter wieght than with a lead core bullet and still get adequate pentration

I'm no gun writer so please forgive the transgression..

I'm going to give my "looney" answer.

I'm going to have a barrel in .338-06 made up for the simple loony reason that I have a Stevens 200 with an 06 sized bolt head, about 500-1,000 Hornady 225 gr bullets and a nice McMillan KS Mtn Rifle stock for said rifle on order from Rick to house the soon to be switch barreled rifle.

I've got .270, .270 WSM, .35 Whelen, .243, 6.5X55, .223, .30-30, .300 Savage in other rifles so why not add .338-06...I'm just shooting 130 lb Ga whitetails at spitting distances anyway

I don't expect miracles from this cartridge, I will bet that when I point it straight, dead critters will happen.

Mike

Hmmm... real data (grin).

2,800 @ 61000 sounds about right in a 24" bbl.

Funny, as I said, I found it easy to get to 2,750 with a 210 in my 338-06 using a load of H4350 below the Hodgdon manual's max.

Also is funny, I've never been able to reach more than 2,600 with a 200 grainer in any 22" 30-06 I've loaded for with the much touted H4831. Will have to try H4350 one of these days...

Mathematical gyrations aside, I think it's obvious that a 210 gr bullet in .338" in no way compares to a 200 grain .308 cal. except they both kill elk quite dead.

Brad I had an old Sako 24" barrel that would get 2700 fps with H-4831 and a 200 Partion. I have cronoed that same load in 2 other 06's one with a 26 3/4" barrel and another 24" and they would not get there. I have settled on H-4350 and 180 grainers in my 06

I double checked and found that I cronoed that samr load in 3 other 06's 2 were 24" and the one 26 3/4"

Shows a guy what a difference any individual barrel can make, eh?

I'd go with the Barnes 225SX or the 250s. I have 250s. The speed of the bullet is not what makes it good or bad, but the way it works, expands, etc.. I had a friend who was using 87gr 6mm bullets on deer, and found they blew up if bone hit, and didn't exactly penetrate that well on side shots. told him, that's because they are made for groundhogs, not deer. I believe in matching the bullet to the game, and the bullet companies have told me that in most instances (maybe the Nosler par. and Barnes T.Sx.are made for heavier stuff) the lighter 338 bullets are made for Deer. Elmer Keith developed this round, then called the 333OKH and he didn't use anything lighter than a 250, and a lot of time the 275s. I think a lot of shooters out there don't really get to hunt that much, and haven't really had any experience with the bullets they are talking about. I also (sorry to say it) think there are a lot of folks who go buy a big bad caliber, then can't take the recoil with the bullet weights that they should be shooting in it, so go down in weight to be able to say they are shooting X, but not really getting the performance out of it they should. Sort of like shooting the 235gr bullets in a 375. they are NOT made to hunt Elk with. will they kill one. Sure, it if's hit right on a nice classic side shot. But will they kill one if it's hit from the back edge of the rib cage. Probably not, because it will stop in the paunch. Hell, I shot a Zebra from the back end, with my 375 at about 20 yards, using the 300gr RN, and it didn't go all the way forward. My 338/06 is a model 700, with the 06 barrel rebored to 338. So doesn't weigh a lot, and does have some jump to it. But cured some of that by getting a new, longer, stock that fit me better (the one on it had been cut down for a woman to use). I have one because I've always wanted one, but in reality, think the 06, especially with the bullets we have today, will kill most anything in the US, and most stuff in Africa fine. I killed a nice Eland with my wifes 06, and a 165gr nosler Partition, on a raking shot, like described above. Bullet hit at the back edge of the rib cage, on the left (where the stomach is) and ended up in the right shoulder. I think at the end of this long discussion you said you'd be shooting deer in a swamp at spitting distance, so there I'd go ahead and use the 200-210s, but have a load available with the 250s for Elk. In MY 338/06, it'll shoot the 250s into one ragged hole at a 100 yds, but won't group the 210s that well. I'm hoping to get back to Africa this summer/fall, and will probably take the 338/06 along, just because I want to. But might end up taking the 06, as know it'll do anything I need it to, especially if loaded with quality bullets. I have the Barnes X and (shoot forget the brand, is from Australia)ones in soft points, for the 338/06, and MIGHT even get some of the A-square dead softs, for it. I'll take my 375 for the Buff. If I take the 06, will use either Barnes triple shocks in 165, or the Swifts, probably the Sciroccos, as most plains game in Africa as small or smaller then a white tail.

Mike 81,

For elk all you will need is a 210gr NP or TSX. Go with a 225gr if you feel the need. Like I stated above, a 250gr just is not needed unless after DG.

Mule Deer,
I was wondering about your "math" article last night. So thank you for putting all in a post.

The penetration difference is a no brainer. But I don't think the extra 25% is needed.

As far as the shot count. Neither of the second shots were needed, but I sent them on their way.

The first was a special cow hunt that was kind of a circus and I didn't want to get into a my elk vs your elk situation.

The second, was a shot on basically a once in a lifetime bull elk tag(2006). I was a couple miles from the truck, starting to snow, right at dark. I didn't think an insurance shot would hurt. Even though he was in the four legged death stance after the first.

I had been in on a few elk shot with 270's. Killed them deader than heck. But my problem was the reaction of the elk. They just didn't really act like they were hit hard. I was used to the 270's effect on deer/antelope.

So when I drew a special tag (1997), I felt I wanted a bigger elk gun. That's when I got the 338 WM. As stated before worked great. But there is just something about a belted case and magnumitis that turned me off.

In my subjective opinion, elk act like they are hit harder with 338 caliber and above. This is from my experience, which pales to yours. I have only been in on a couple dozen elk kills.

My loads for the 210gr NP are right at 2725fps, 2 grains below book max with Rel 15.

My load for the 210gr TSX is right at book max for Varget, and runs about 2840fps. I would love to pressure test this load, but I do not have the equipment. Everything looks and measures OK for pressure. I was not pushing this load, just happened to be where it shot the best. 0.5gr more and started showing pressure signs.

I've easily gotten 2600+ fps with 200 gr bullets in four different 30-06's using published loads of RL22, H4831, and AA3100. According to any of the ballistic data I've found, by 200yds it has nearly caught up with the .30 180grs and passed the 200gr and 210gr .338-06 just as MD stated.

This isn't a response to any one, but just some thinking "out-load".

I always get a laugh when I see the guys on here saying how great a 120 TXS out of a 7mm-08 or a 130 TSX from a .308 or 150 TSX from a .30-06 is, but by God you better use a 250 out of a .338-06!
Wouldn't the .338 bore get the same benefits from the premiums too?

Murphy,

The 1/4 velocity/powder-capacity ratio has nothing to do with where the powder is all burned in the .300 RUM and .308 Win. There is a SLIGHT difference in where the powder is "all" burned (let us say 99% of it, if the pressure is right for the powder used) between the rounds, but it is probably somewhere around 2" in front of the chamber with the .308, maybe 3-4 inches in the .300 RUM. Since no sporting rifles have 3-inch barrels, this has nothing to do with the 1/4 ratio.

I would so a search on this site and get up to speed on this. I simply don't have time here to provide an education on interior ballistics.

Am also growing a little weary on the insistence of some on this thread returning to the "well, my barrel will...." or "a buddy has a Pressure Trace and...." Yeah, there are differences in barrels, and yeah a Pressure Trace or other strain-gauge set-up can tell us RELATIVE pressures. But unless a strain-gauge (or piezo) setup is calibrated to some load of known pressure (such as SAAMI reference ammo) then the numbers are suspect.

We have been through all of this before and I'm a little weary of wasting my time.

JB

My comments on this subject always make a number of people, like Don, all hissy, but I will stand by what I've said.

I have never caught the vision for either the 35 Whelen or the 338-06, and it's unlikely that I ever will. I think the 30-06 case is best left as a 30-06, or else a 280 Rem., 270 Win., or 25-06 Rem.

As I've said all too many times before, if you want optimum performance with bigger, heavier bullets, you need to increase case-capacity as well. There's no free lunch.......

AD

Allen,

My experience exactly.

The only "necked-up" .30-06 case I've found to be more useful than the original is the 9.3x62, but it is actually "double improved," the case shoulder moved forward and the neck opened way up, the reason it comes so close to matching the .338 Win. with 250's....

JB

The 9.3X62 is a logical cartridge..........

AD

I think this thread might be more useful if the point being discussed was a little more clearly defined.

What are we trying to decide- Is it

Is the 338/06 a darn good game rifle? or-

Is the 338/06 superior to, equal to or less than the 30/06? or-

is the 338/06 fun to load for and experiment with? or what?

What is the maximun velocity that can be achieved with various bullets in the 30/06 and the 338/06?

Bear in mind, evidence drawn from a great deal of actual big game kills, like the experience of Phil Shoemaker, Mule Deer Allen Day and the oft refered to Scandanavian study indicate that it takes a HUGE change in class of cartridges to be able to discern and difference in "killing power". Given that hundreds of kills couldn't point out a substantial difference between the 6.5X55 and the 375 H&H in the Scandanavian study, its kind of silly to say that three or four kills with one bullet out of one cartridge suggests superior killing power of one over the other is inane.
Also, to argue that the superiority of the 338/06 over the 30/06 hinges on defining the maximum velocity of the relative bullets to the nearest 100 fps is silly. There can be a difference of 40 FPS at least, from one chronograph to the next,so there can be half of the percieved difference. Additionally, the difference under field conditions of 100 fps in bullet velocity would be impossible to discern by almost anyone.
Discussing rifles and bullets is fun, but plowing the same ground over and over again with arguments that ignore information that has been presented many times already is not productive.

Royce

Well this a quite the popular topic, now isn't it. I think the 338-06 is a fine cartridge if you limit your range to 350 yrds. I used my cousin's 338-06 AI last year for my elk hunt as I have been pondering having one built, and it seemed like quite the effective killer loaded with the 210gr TSX. Was it a better killer than a 30-06 loaded with 180gr TSX? I would say that they are probably about equal, but it was quite impressive. Recoil was far more manageable than some of the Magnums that I've owned over the years.

Royce'

I agree with you,BUT:

I'm a 35Whelen, 338-06 fan and I thoroughly enjoy dissecting load data, velocity charts, burn rates, BC, penetration, expansion, trajectory etc, along with first person accounts of those who actually used a cartridge. Then I make my choice, use it on game and it works extremely well. I then declare myself a genius of the first order who has discovered a well hidden secret, and look down on lesser mortals.

An astute observer may recognize a number of my brethren here at the Fire. Yeah, we all pretty well know the truth, but ignoring it and acting like we really are geniuses is a whole helluva lot more fun.

So, please don't mess it up for us. We are having a great time!! (grins)

Steve

7X57
Good post, good points!

Royce

I might also point out that I recently obtained a Kimber in .338 Federal. Now, I know this will not kill anything "better" than a bunch of other cartridges, but it packs the most punch in this little rifle (6-1/4 pounds with a 4.75x Weaver Grand Slam). So why not have some fun? Unlike the .338-06 I have never tried one on game....

Which reminds me, in general I have found 2700 fps at the muzzle with about any spitzer more than adquate for 400-yard shooting. So why limit the .338-06 to 350 yards with 200-210 grain bullets?

JB

MD,



Yup!

Just me, but I've always thought the 338 Fed in a light rifle like that Montana would be a great setup at pumping out 185 TSX's at 2,750. So much so, I'd prefer it over the 06 itself.
At least for the sake of having a light/shorter rifle.

What's the 06 going to do better out to 400 yards?

JB makes and excellent point about range and it is one that I wish more would take into consideration (as long as they do their work to be able to utilize it).

Personally, I like the Burris with the BP in it and on my lil G33/40 I have a 3-9 on it and the rifle these days just happens to be chambered in a OKH (ok 338/06...grins).

It is set up to use the Plexes to 530 yds with my 200 NBT load and to 430 with my 250 NPT load. If conditions are favorable I can take game on demand to 500 yds with this old slow bird just as easily as I can with one of rockets.

B4 I got into the world of what I call ranging scopes and that is probably not the right term. By this I mean scopes with turrets/BP's/Premier dots/etc. I would worry about getting all the speed I could possibly get, and many times it was not in a positive manner as I now look back on it. I no longer worry about getting all the extra speed as I use a bit different scope than I used to and of course a LRF all the time.

I can easily take rounds in the 2500-2700 range and get them set to shoot to 500 yds without any big challenge and for me day in and day out that is plenty darn far. As long as I've got enough speed to reliably open up a bullet I don't worry much anymore about the mzl velocity (compared to what I used to, zeesh what a sorry sort I was).

This makes sense to me does it to anyone else?

Make it your best day!

Mark D

+1

I had a great 338-06 that I loved, but Mule Deer's points are all valid.

In the end, I came down on the side of being able to buy ammo at the corner store, no matter the corner in Zim or Bethel, Alaska. I've checked both and they have 338 Win Mag and 30-06, not a box of 338-06.

Since I reload, ammo availabiltiy should not be an issue. However, since I travel outside of the US, it is.

If I had to do it over again, I'd keep the 338-06, and make it a switch barrel with a 270, and never buy another rifle (NOT!)

Mark,

I'm reminded of a certain beer commercial - Brilliant!!

Yes Mark good post and now you know why I don't shoot a 340!

FWIW:

I have long thought that the 185 TSX is the real deal for the 338-06. I figure it could get 2900 FPS, shoot flat penetrate deep, and generally achieve a lot from a lighter, lower recoiling package (which is why a guy goes with the 338-06 over the 338 Win anyway, right?)

OTOH:

If'n a guy wants to sling a big-hunk-o-lead out of a 30-06 sized case, the 9.3x62 seems to be the ticket.

YMMV,

BMT

BMT-if I could of made the 185 TSX to shoot, make no doubt about itI would be using it. I've tried it in my 338/06 my 338 WSM and in my 340 and no doubt about it I did pretty much all I could do to make it work.

I went thru something like 5 or 6 boxes of the darn slugs. And while I could get 2 to go close, I had way too many of one of the three in a group go for a ride on me.

I've no idea why but I can tell you that I gave up on it but not after one whole heck of a lot of try!

I've had just super success getting the TSX to shoot this is the one and only that to date will not for me.

Spose I am just stubborn enough to go for one more try...grins

Now the 210 TSX has shot pretty much in one hole in any 33 that I've tried it in.

Life is just too darn short to be worrying about anything as simple as balistic gack!

Later

Dober

Dober:

Such things make us loonies even loonier.

I was determined to use Factory Second 180 Nosler Partitions in my 30-06. But they would not shoot. 150 TSX go into little bugholes.

The whole idea of having the 30-06 was cheaper shooting, tho'.

So, I am gonna try 180 accubond seconds. maybe I can get them to shoot. I like $14 for 50 rounds a LOT better that $44.

BMT

BMT -I could be wrong on this but it seems to me that once one gets beyond a 223 a 270 and a 375 we go straight to the looney bin...grins

Dober

Hey BMT,

Karen and I surely enjoyed our visit. The "boys" in the Dead Petting Zoo say "HI"

I'm really enjoying the thrashing of the .338-'06. It's fun sitting on the sidelines, having killed well over 100 head of big game with the cartridge. Just sittin' here eating popcorn, watching the show.

Trust me, it is a GREAT cartridge.

Steve

Steve,

I always thought the same. And I am so glad that I had Mickey Coleman build me my 338/06 prior to reading this thread!

Chris

I had a good time too.

I always liked the 338-06. I just figger that it would really sing with the 185 TSX.

Myself, I got my heart set on the 375 H&H. Mostly because of the age and history of the cartridge. I figger, if you are gonna go big, go BIG.

BMT

270?

270??????

You mean 30-06, right?

BMT

I would guess that had the 25-06 been invented first, many would be claiming that expanding it to 30 caliber really added very little of any use

Allen, you need to get you a "real .338 cartridge, the .338/8mag or the .340 Weatherby. Then you could always download it to .338 Winnie levels, or even to the .338-06, which everyone knows is an idea that never should have happened. You are fond of posting the idea of getting the .338 Winnie instead of the .338-06, knowing it can always be downloaded to .338-06 levels. I guess no one ever explained to Elmer Keith what insufficient cartridges the .333OKH and .35 Whelen were....

Not in the case of the 30-06, 280, or 270 but certainly in the case of the 338-06, you've run out of case-capacity for optimum results with the heavy .338 bullets that are what this bore diameter is really all about. I've explained this at length before, but I guess I haven't explained it well enough for it to make any sense.

For purposes of home entertainment value, today I took a few minutes and looked up some numbers comparing that fabulous new wunder cartridge, the 338 Federal (already known as "Federal's Big Winner"!) firing a 180 gr. Nosler BTs (BC .372, SD .225) to the 30-06 firing 180 Nosler BTs (BC .507, SD .271) at the exact-same MV, and from every standpoint of consideration, the 30-06 outperforms it completely, shooting flatter and hitting harder at all ranges.

Today, for sales and feel-good purposes "less" of everything follows a rather convoluted path into being somehow just as much as "more" is, ballistically. Tomorrow, (depending on what new cartridge gets introduced), there might just be a new slant on this subject, proving beyond any shadow of any doubt that "more" really is "MORE" after all, like when the Ultra-Gags got introduced a few years ago. Don't ya just love the science of bullistics????????

That's why I don't worry about this stuff too much for my own purposes, and I readily admit that I despise off-beat cartridges, and lack imagination when it comes to some of these new introductions. When I want to hunt with a 338, I just grab a 338 Win. Mag. and go hunting. It's the most efficient 338 of the whole bunch, plus it's AVAILABLE, and I learned to really shoot it many years ago..............

AD

No, but they should have told him so right up front and gotten it over with! Actually, his 334 OKH only became obsolete from a practical standpoint when the 338 Win. Mag. was introduced, which obviously owes it's life to Elmer Keith in a very big way.

AD

All joking aside, the .338 Winnie is one fine cartridge and very balanced. I like it much more than the .300 mags.

Couldn't agree more!! Very well said!

Now I am wondering where I said the .338-06 was bad. Went back to the beginning and found what I originally said, which was "a good round."

I believe Barnes made a 160 X for a while in .338. I know they made a 175, which is what Connie Brooks has used on more stuff with her .338 Win. Mag for a great deal of the game she has shot with it. Why not--though I do know an experienced elk hunter who tried it on an angling shot on a moose and was dissatisfied ewith the penetration. Which may be why the lightest .338 TSX is a 185.

JB

This is true, but it is much easier to carry 33,35 or 36 on an 06 case than a typically heavy 375 HH. This gives protability pluss the extra power to get things done, all the time.

John-you're sure right about them making a 160 X, it is actually one of the few X's that shot for me. I should say that it worked in my 338/06 but not in my 340's or 338's.

In my 23" tube the 160 X with R15 would go @ 3037 fps. I never used it on a head of big game but I did beat up on a yote and a porky with it. It gave adequate penetration.

The short stubby lil thing shot real good.

Mark D

JB,

I'm confused! How is it that when we neck up the '06 case to 338 it pales in comparison to the same weight in the parent case, yet by necking up to 366 it is nearly the equal of the 338 mag. All of this from the same physics book?

I'm having trouble seeing how the 20% only allows a useful 5%. I've spent most of the afternoon calculating bore volume and expansion rates of different powders, calculating surface area of different bullets, re-hashing pressure vs velocity curves, calculating expansion ratios and sectional density and...I've come up with a net increase of 8.385% in velocity of the 338-06 vs 30-06 when using the same bullet weight, but recoil is only 3.4% more. That makes the 338-06 an even better rifle than I originally thought.

Murphy,

You're confused? Where did anybody say the .338-06 "pales in comparison to the same weight in the parent case"? I carefully pointed out that the .338-06 gains 5% in velocity with the same bullet weights over the .30-06.

Since I do not know your calculations, I don't know how to respond to the 8.385% increase.

The 1/4 ratio was not "calculated," but came about by (and I'll state it again, slowly) computer-crunching the actual pressure-teated results from LOTS of various cartridges in modern loading manuals. This is known as "empirical data."

This is why, when we calculate the potential for the .338-06 using the formulas I stated, starting from published data for the 200-grain load in the .30-06, we come using up with a potential muzzle velocity of 2750 fps with a 210-grain bullet--WHICH HAPPENS TO BE JUST ABOUT EXACTLY THE TOP MUZZLE VELOCITY STATED FOR THE 210 IN THE .338-06 IN HODGDON'S ANNUAL MANUAL, probably the most extensive (and updated) data source around.

When we open up the neck of the same basic case even further, as in the 9.3x62, we again gain potential velocity with the same bullet weight, at the same pressure. This is the reason the 9.3x62 can obtain around 2650 fps with a 250-grain bullet, very close to what's possible with the .338 Winchester, which has more powder capacity but a smaller bore.

Want to try another example? Let's compare the 7mm Remington Magnum and the .338 Winchester Magnum. Both use the same case, but the difference in bore is even more than that between the .30-06 and .338-06. Here the closest we can come to the same bullet weight, using the same Nosler manual, is 175 in the 7mm and 180 in the .338.

First we calculate the bore areas (.0633" and .0897"), then divide the second by the first, arriving at 1.417, or a 41.7% advantage for the .338. Divide this by 4 and we get 1.104. Multiply this by 2970 and we get 3278.

Now we look up data for the 180-grain Ballistic Tip in the .338 Winchester Magnum section and find a top velocity of 3281 fps.

Want to try again? Let's calculate what me might get from a 120-grain bullet in the .280 Remington by using .25-06 data. Here we divide .0633" by .519", and get an increase in 21.96% in bore area when going from .257 to .284. Use the 1/4 ratio, and this means a potential increase of 5.49% in muzzle velocity.

Nosler lists a top muzzle velocity of 3090 fps with a 120-grain bullet in the .25-06. Another 5.49% in velocity results in 3260 fps. Look up tghe 120-grain in .280 and we find a top muzzle velocity of 3286 fps.

(Somebody is sure to point out that the .280 case has slightly more powder capacity than the .25-06 (or .270 or .30-06), due to the shoulder being moved slightly forward. This is true, but any difference is pretty much unmeasurable; in fact it's often reversed when using bras of different brands.)

By the way, somebody here brought up the fact that Nosler does not list their pressures in the manual. Nosler is a member of SAAMI, which means they load to SAAMI maximums for any SAAMI cartridge. This can be assumed about any American loading manual these days, whether the pressures obtained are listed or not.

JB

Wow John, that's a lot of math in the Morning. . . .

The alarming part is that you did that work -- correctly, I might add -- before 7 AM. . . .

By the way, have I said "Thanx" lately? I really love learning this kind of stuff.

BMT

Mule Deer!!!
Now you have hit on something I find of great interest!
The other day, you mentioned in a thread something about trying to remove bras from young ladies on the back roads around Bozeman.
Now, in this post at 6:53 you mention bras of different brands ( Next to last paragraph) having varying capacities. I assume the first comment was related to research for info in this post.
Could you please do an article on your research for THIS article. ( Don't assign it to Stan T. please, he'd just have a bunch of photos of the damn hooks, Spomer would see which bra would hold the most freeze dried food for back packing). Lots and lots of pictures please-
What units is bra capacity measured in? Metric units? Are they all measured at the same barometric pressure? Are some more temperature sensitive than others? Is it a weight or volume measure? What instruments are required?
Is there any chance of a monthly column on this subject???

TIC

Fred Royce

Mule Deer had a little freudian slip.. let him be.

Slip, hell, it was a BRA!!! LOL

Mr Allenday,

In comparing the 338 Fed using 185 TSX comparing it to the 30-06 shooting a 180 TSX at 2,750 fps with a 200 yard zero.

There is a big whopping 2.5" of difference between the two at 400 yards! At 300 yards there is a huge difference of 0.8.

The next thing I'll hear is the 338 Fed using a 185 TSX does not have enough SD to be as effective as an '06. Ha!

I wasn't trying to give Mule Deer a hard time, and I think he has picked up on the fact that I have to much respect for him to do so- I was just trying get a few chuckles into a thread that has gotten WAY too labored.
Next thing, we'll be measuring muzzle velocities in centimeters per second to pick up on all those nuances in velocity that things like camo rifles slings cause.
Royce

And by the way, ( here's some egg on my face) it
wasn't Mule Deer's post that discussed undoing bras around Bozeman- Sorry if I caused you any embarrasment over that, John.- Will repeat- Mule Deer did not make a post regarding bras , backroads and Bozeman- That was my mistake

Royce

Mule Deer was undoing bras around Bozeman?????

COOL.

Steve

Well, if it wasnt around Boseman...where was it!! grin..

Pictures man, pictures!

Mule Deer WASN'T undoing bras!!! When I made that first post, I had confused a PM from someone else with a post Mule Deer made. IT WASN'T MULE DEER!!!!!

IT WASN'T MULE DEER WHO WAS UNDOING BRAS ???????

I copied the loading data off the Hogdon website, using the loads that had the highest velocities and then plugged them into the Taylor TKO Value Calculator on the Sisk Website. Just wondering if there is anything worth mentioning to these figures or is this TKO thing bull?

30-06
180 GR. SIE SPBT 180
.308" 3.300" 52.0 2543 37,800 CUP 57.5 2798 49,300 CUP
Taylor KO Value: 22


220 GR. HDY JRN 220 IMR 7828 .308" 3.230" 53.0 2288 48,600 PSI 58.0 2476 59,700 PSI

Taylor KO Value: 19


338-06
185 GR. BAR X BT 185 BL-C(2) .338" 3.130" 55.0 2824 56,600 PSI 59.0 2943 62,400 PSI
Taylor KO Value: 26


225 GR. SPR SPBT 225 H4895 .338" 3.240" 46.0 2410 51,200 PSI 49.8 2577 63,000 PSI

Taylor KO Value:27

Actually, though I did not mention it in any post here, I was born and raised and went to high school in Bozeman. Yes, I am guilty of some bra removals on country roads. Some of the roads (and possibly bras) ar in the middle of subdivisions now, but back then....

JB

Actually, though I did not mention it in any post here, I was born and raised and went to high school in Bozeman. Yes, I am guilty of some bra removals on country roads. Some of the roads (and possibly bras) are in the middle of subdivisions now, but back then....

JB

I'm surprised no one caught the "Pressure Teated" results...along with the bras mentioned in Mule Deers post!...

Makes ya wonder what goes on at his house early in the morning!...

All kidding aside the formulas are great info thanks for posting them Mule Deer....

And for whomever asked I think bras are measured in inches ..(at least here in the U.S.) last time I checked!

I'll guess pressure results from "Teats" are measured with hands...

I guess you would have favored removing small bras at a fast speed as opposed to bigger bras a little slower. Snicker, snicker.

Size doesn't matter. . . . .

BMT

:)B&C Bras...Boone and Crocket right, how do we do this whole gross and net thing...

Dober

ps I'm going to the range to shoot my OKH this afternoon if anyone cares....grins

Knew a stripper in New Orleans that might have changed your mind on that

It is necessary to remove the bra to check for proper breast alignment.

1flier

SAAMI surely must have something to say about all of the above.

Steve

I'm sure that most folks would rather "do it yourself" than seek the services of a 'smith.

If the 30-06 necked up to 338 is a good cartridge and the 9.3x62 is basically the same as an 06, except much improved for capacity, then why not neck the 9.3x62 down to 338 and take advantage of the extra case capacity? That would be better than the 338-06 and closer to the 338 Win in performance.

The 'net' score is measured in CUP, with deductions for inches. A 34C would score much higher than a 45C. A 36D is considered a trophy.

Another measure of the trophy is the ease with which it can be removed. If it will just slip up and off without unlatching, then the score will be lower than if more effort is required for clearance.

Really!

_

Agreed that a 36D is a true trophy, because finding one that has not been "doctored" is very difficult.

BMT

BMT
My ex was one of those- they were her only redeeming quality.

panhandlepr

The cartridge you describe has already been done-.338 Scovill by MD's Dave Scovill.

Now that we have established my culpability in the bra-removal realm, I will answer a couple of questions that higher(?) minded people asked:

Keez, one reason nobody had made anything of the Taylor KO numbers from any data that might be floating around is that John Taylor, the African hunter who invented the formula, said that it only applied to SOLID BULLETS, and shooting elephants in the head.

Despite this, many people keep trying to apply it to expanding bullets. Also, many African PH's say that Taylor's theory was bullshit, even with solid bullets on elephants.

JB

panhandler--

This has been done. It is called the .338 Scovill, and is sort of a .338-06 Ackley Slightly More Improved.

Now, we return to our earlier report on bras and country roads....

JB

JB-did Eileen blow up a turk?

Dober

In regard to high school research after hours, if an analogy can be made here, it could be said that there are the "standards" and the "magnums"....

I thoroughly apologize for that.

Yes, she did. She was the only one in camp who got one, as a matter of fact. She is often like that, and not just with turkeys. Lots of turkeys but weather sucked, with really nasty thunderstorms coming through mid-hunt.

She is recovering still from after-effects of the homewad journey, so we have not been out to check the fishing. Reports are it is starting to get good though....

JB

Too funny!! Not to mention the "accidental discharges"...grin

I, too, apologize for that.

Women never cease to amaze me and when it comes to hunting they normally kick butt!

I just love to see how it all works out.

Mark D

I gotta run to Minne over the weekend but when I get back perhaps I get Austin over for a quick night of ripping lips b4 you head out.

Mark, I'll be around next week until Friday the 27th, and it looks like I'll get most work and African prep done this week. So it looks good for gettng Austin together with a nice rainbow.

JB

Apology in advance: this of course doesn't apply to any of us here, but the distaff side might point out that there are the "shorts" and the "supershorts" among us. Best, John

John,

Thanks for the lengthy reply. I can follow all the math. I think I was delving into the science of it where your data was an analysis of loading data at given pressures for each caliber. I can accept that. I also accept the fact that the 338-06 will max out at about 2750-2800 fps with a 210 grain partition. I think what I have a problem with is the '06 and 200 grain velocity. As I look through my most recent manual, Hornady #7, I see the '06 with 190 grains at 2700 fps and the 338-06 with 225 grains at 2700 fps. These bullets are very close to the same sectional density and should achieve the same velocity from the same case. I think that is more accurate. This is about where I use both calibers and is closer to what I think and expect them both to do. Now I don't mean to imply that Hornady folks know more about loading than the Hodgdon powder people, not at all I haven't seen the newest Hodgdon manual, but in the Hodgdon's #26 book a 200 grain in the '06 at 2690 fps and the 225 338-06 at 2700 and change. I didn't pour through all 34 of my manuals but these are quite typical and I see these numbers when I load for them.

I don't think we are in any disagreement here in fact I've forgotten what the issue was...maybe something about the 338-06 being a better elk gun. Of course it is.

The 9.3 vs 338 was really just a gig, sorry. What do you think of the 338 WM necked up to 366? Are we getting into the buffalo gun range yet?

Thanks again for your reply.

I have the gun in. I think I will really like it. Handles very nice and isn't too heavy. I really didn't want a 6.5lb 338WM.
I will do some testing with the 210 partitions I have coming in and may end up trying the TSX's or even the new noslers in the 225ish range.
I have a 4200 2.5-10X40 to put on it for now and maybe permanently. I would prefer something with a little lower power. maybe a 1.5-6X32 or a fixed 4X.

The 338-06 is good...

The 338-06 is bad...

The 338-06 is good...

Just trying to keep the thread factual and moving forward (grin)...

Thanks, Brad!

I like mine.

That's a good-un!

Well so much for TKO, even if I did plan on shooting an elephant in the head, I will file that under more useless information. That�s what you gotta love about this site, where else would I have found this information out. Thanks, Mule Deer
Paul W.

Teeder,

Nice rifle. It looks almost exactly like my Rem 700 BDL/SS. I assume that is the basic platform of your rifle as well. Is that also the original so-called "Tupperware" Remington stock that is railed upon so frequently here at the campfire? Did you modify the stock in any way, such as free floating the barrel or glass bed the action? The reason I ask is because my BDL/SS, a 375 H&H, is not a particularly stellar shooter, and I'm wondering if there are any particular 'tricks' with the factory injection molded stock to get the gun to shoot better. The stock on my rifle is quite flexible. Were I to free float the barrel, it would be necessary to remove quite a bit of material to keep the stock away from the barrel during regular use, leaving a large gap between barrel and stock. Given the relative lightweight contour of the barrel (particularly in that caliber) I am inclined to believe that it would better respond to a pressure point in the forend. But I doubt the ability of that flexible stock to provide the stability that I am looking for with the pressure point. Any constructive advice is appreciated.

Mule Deer,

I read your article on the new Ruger M77 MkII African in Rifle. That rifle has a lot of appealing characteristics, even if the ballistic performance is "so what?" when compared with the 375 H&H caliber. Providing 375 H&H performance in a standard-length CRF Ruger rifle with open sights at a production rifle price appeals to me, and I bet it appeals to other rifle buyers as well. The Remington 700 BDL/SS is the lightest and least costly factory 375 H&H I have encountered, and it has some great features. Still, I am tempted to consider trading the Remington for the new Ruger. Maybe the better solution is to own both. My need to own either is akin to "another hole in the head."

Post edited to add the following:

My apologies for "hijacking" this thread with this post. Teeder, if you would care to reply to my questions, maybe a PM would be more appropriate.
_

I read an interesting article called, Shooting holes in wounding theories. It and one article spoke highly of momentum. And also mentioned something about terminal momentum which had to do with retained bullet weight and impact velocity(which had to be predicted or estimated through testing since it's after the fact.
It showed through various examples how energy and SD are not the best predictors of killing power of penetration. It focused on bullet construction, momentum, and one other figure I can't remember. LOL!
I remember the article be like a book over 30 pages when printed out. I think the other was from the GS custom website. I would recommend reading them.

Way funny bud!!!


"DWD" (darn well done)

Dober

Awe c'mon, Keez. If you want to continue using the KO formula as a comparison of a calibers' killing power, who cares? For comparing calibers, it's at least as good a measure as any of the others I have heard or read about. It's not science anyways, so who can argue? Everybody has their own ideas of what constitutes good terminal performance. Why should Taylor KO be any less valid? Personally, I like complete penetration with plenty of damage on the way through. But I know other hunters that absolutely hate it when the bullet exits an animal. Just because somebody says that somebody else's non-scientific formula is invalid does not make it necessarily so.
_

Actually, to clarify my above non-contributory comment, I was referring to the "SxS" expression of the gentler's sex anatomy.

I will now bid you all well and withdraw from this discussion. Have a good day!

Gdv

Articles like that are, well -- interesting?

Did they mention in that article that sectional-density, all other factors being equal, has just about everything to do with momentum?

AD

For what it's worth: if my recollection is correct, the original heavy game .33, the .333 Jeffery which got the good reputation as an African cartridge (and which stimulated Keith into his .333OKH and .334OKH), used a 300 grain bullet.

Murphy,

The only way two cartridges of different bore diameters can give bullets of equal sectional density the same muzzle velocity is of the cases have approximately the same bore-to-powder capacity ratio.

One way to figure this is to divide the bore's area, expressed as a 3-digit number, by the approximate water capacity with a bullet seated.

For instance, the .30-06 has about a 60-grain water capacity with a lead-core 180-grain spitzer seated. Divide 745 (bore area expressed in 3 digits, instead of .0745 inch) by 60 and we get 12.4.

We can reverse the formula to find the equivalent case in .338: divide 897 (bore area) by 12.4 and we get 72.3. This is a little less than the case capacity of the .338 Winchester Magnum with a 225-grain bullet seated (225 is about as close as we can some in .338 to the 180/.30's sectional density), about 76 grains. But the .338 case is pretty close.

If we check a bunch of manuals we find that in general muzzle velocities with the 180 top out at 2800 in the 30-06, and sometimes a little more (Nosler lists 2872). This is about where the 225 in the .338 Winchester ends up as well.

Other examples of the same approximate bore/powder ratio as the .30-06 and .338 Win., and their approximate muzzle velocities with bullets of about the same sectional density as the 180/.30 and 225/.338 (call it .275):

7x57 Mauser: b/c ratio with 154-grain 12.2
.358 Norma Magnum: b/c with 250-grain 12.2
.375 H&H Magnum: b/c with 270-grain 12.7

If you look at a bunch of manuals, you'll find that those bullet weights can be given 2800 or so (at least at "modern" pressures) in all those rounds.

Part of the problem with comparing the .30-06 and .338-06 from manual data is finding data at equal pressures. Essentially there is none, because the .30-06's maximum SAAMI pressure is 60,000 psi, while the .338-06's is 65,000.

You also cannot find truly comparable data in many manuals, such as the Hornady you quote, because it is one of several manuals that do not quote the velocities taken in pressure barrels. Instead, they work up loads in pressure barrels, then fire them in factory or custom rifles and record THOSE velocities. This rifle may or may not have the same stricter chamber and bore dimensions as a SAAMI pressure barrel.

This practice supposedly gives us poor home handloaders a look at what velocities loads may produce in "typical" sporter barrels. But there is no such thing as a "typical" sporter barrel, and thus this "system" produces many weird things. Speer does the same thing, and in their last manual the practice made the .308 Win. look better than the .30-06 with some loads, which is so ridiculous that they had to put a note in the manual explaining why.

Which is why I tend to put my trust the data from manuals that publish velocity data from pressure barrels, such as Hodgdon, Nosler, Ramsshot and Sierra. Then we can compare apples to apples, not to oranges or pomegranates.

JB

John:

You are completely right.

But I like the "real rifle" data to be aavialable also. Lets a guy know that 24" Shilen/Kreiger (often) does produce more speed than his 22" Ruger.

Also, Hornady lists velocities from shorter length barrells, if appropriate. I recall the Model 600 18.5" barrel for the 350 Remington Magnum, for example.

But, this is why I use the Speer/Hornady manuals as a reality check.

Of course the Chronograph is better, but that only helps AFTER you bought the rifle . . . . (grin).

BMT

BR,

PM sent.

Great thread, all. No flames. Just facts, opinions, and respect. I like that a lot.

Got your PM, Teeder. Thanks.
_

It has been a very good thead, interesting thought processes from time to time that are no doubt fun to read. But it has been handled well by all and with no need for any zebras around.

Mark D

zebras=referee's...grins

I liked the part where we discussed the sexual density of bras...

All of the factors are never equal. I am not sure what you are saying by which is dependent of which?

if i have one done it'll probably look like this one posted by ol blue a while back....

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/member_images/833098-IMG_1005_1.JPG