Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters 338/06

Sorry, Don, maybe I spoke a tad too brusquely, but, it just seems to me that there has been a lot of nasty rhetoric here lately. I have no desire to see that continue or anyone stop posting AND, everyone KNOWS that I am probably the most mellow old fellow on this forum!!! Right??? Ya better agree!!!! Or else!!!

If, I thought that you were a fool or an azzhole, I wouldn't have bothered with my comments, but, I do find AD's posts very enjoyable, informative and I have never found him pompous or demeaning toward anyone. Mind you, my attitude is due to an impatience with those who post on places/things with which they have no "hands-on" familiarity and AD certainly backs up his posts with experience, as I try to.

...Grumpy..., nah, I'm a SWEET old geezer, own a few measly guns and even backpack hunt; I just prefer to discuss issues with some civility and not use un-needed slurs.

You CAN be ripped-off here in B.C., BUT, there ARE honest G/Os who give you fair value for your buck, the real problem is Indian slaughter due to "rights", pizzpoor management due to lack of funding and scumbag poachers killing large numbers of animals....just like in the U.S.A. But, you might like a hunt here with somebody in the Similkameen as it's warm, dry, lots of fruit, wine and very "laid back"; a good hunt for we old pharts!

Not a problem, Kute. I did not take your post as a personal affront. Most of the people that I always enjoyed discussions with, or respected their points of view, seem to have moved on.

Probably time for me to do the same. I'm considering parting out all but one or two of my guns. Most of my younger friends
are patiently waiting in the wings for them, so it should be a relatively easy task. My son-in-law will gladly take my reloading equipment off my hands.

Gun ownership in a PC country is just more than I care to put up with nowadays. Discussion among gunnies on the ole net is just about as bad. I don't find much good-natured cameraderie any more on or off the net, just those who pontificate their positions/opinions. It's pretty much a waste of time for anyone else to post with these guys around.


Laid back for me nowadays seems to look more and more like "not at all". I'm too old for the modern versions of hunting. It used to be fun, depending on who I went with. Now it's more a pain in the azz! Seems we need a lotto ticket and a lawyer to hunt nowadays?

With all the nasty bickering in the gun community, I don't think gun ownership will last much longer for the average guy. I know I've been losing my gusto for the process lately. I guess it gets that way when you begin to dislike your allies!

I need to find a nice fishing site, but then I guess there won't be much there other than a different pissing match?

Just arranged for a week long trout fishing outing with the Mrs.
at the end of May. A trip to the lawyer should have all the regulations explained for me.

I owned a boat a couple years back. Used it quite a bit on Lake Erie, but after a couple of visits and interrogations from Homeland Security, I sold the boat before I decided to shoot one of these jack-booted thugs with a flare gun!

Perhaps it's just time to sit back and enjoy all the memories
of quality hunting/fishing I lived through. Much of what passes today just turns me off and doesn't seem to be worth the effort!

Regards,

Don

hey don,

still plenty of cameraderie in hunting... there is no hunting on the internet... it's been tried and found wanting...
what we have here is a site where guys can share dialogue and trade in ideas... valuable, in some respects, but not anything like hunting...

Big Game works great with 225gr bullet. N-550 is another powder in that "between",it's a bit faster and works well with 210gr.Has anyone tried IMR 4007 yet in this cartridge?

Thanks for spelling cameraderie for me. Too lazy to check the dictionary!

A high clash of ideas and a low clash of ego's is always best I would suggest would you guyz agree?

Mark D

My .338-06 goes 2800 fps on the button with both Big Game and 4064 and the 210 TSX at 61000 on my pressure trace. It is a 24 in. barrelled FN. Personally I think this is easier to do than 2800 in the .30-06 200 grain, has always took some work to get 2800 with 180's usually in a 22 in. barrel. That said, no animal will ever be able to argue the point after being hit with either one. The availability of 250's at 2500-2550 fps does move it into another catagory IMO. I will agree that from 7-08 caliber up, you have to hit a .338 WMag before you notice much difference in effect on game. In my experience the .338 and .375 are noticeably different on larger game, plus make a better whacking sound when they hit, which I like to hear!

THAT is one of the BEST posts I have read here, or, on any forum. After awhile, the slagging that happens becomes so tiresome that many good people just stop logging on and this is, IMHO, a sad aspect of this type of forum.

It IS dammed hard to communicate on the 'net and often people will take comments in a different way than they were intended; this can be due to various factors and it certainly is not limited to anyone in particular.

Yeah, MORE experience-based anecdotes, enjoyable wrangling over the VAST difference between the WONDERFUL .338 bullets and those "sad" .358 wimpy missiles and LESS slagging of each other!

I really empathize with Don concerning his feelings about what's happening with hunting, guns and our two countries and I sometimes think about doing what he is considering....things are pretty grim for gunnuts/hunters in our "free" societies.......seem ok for dope dealers, perverts and terrorists, tho'.

John,

Missed your article. Your expalnation is well detailed and I agree pretty much down the line but a lack understanding of the one quarter of the area difference as it would relate to velocity, etc. This in a case of the same volume, bullet of the same weight and at the same pressure. The bullet is accellerated down the barrel by the force exerted upon it and if that force is increased by 20%, ( the force is 60,000 psi and an increase in area of 20%) why would there only be a velocity gain of 5%?

I agree with your reasons for a new caliber and such and agree what velocity someone else measured doesn't mean much. I guess I haven't pushed a 200 grain down a '06 barrel very much.

Murphy,

Let's do a little more math. If the force on the bottom of the bullet was increased by 20%, then the muzzle velocity of the .338-06 with a 200-grain bullet could theoretically be increased to 3225 fps, given a muzzle velocity with the '06 of 2688. (1.2x 2688 = 3225.) This obviously does not happen.

There are too many other factors at work: bullet friction, what is called expansion ratio, etc.

The formulas I worked out for various ballistic problems are very simple, done by crunching results from tested data. Except in pretty general ways, due to a minimal college background in chemistry and phsyics, I am not able to explain everything involved, though other people have. And from what they have provided me, you would not be very entertained by reading it anyway.

The basic thing I have found by crunching loading data is that we do not get as much out of various things (case capacity, bore diameter, etc.) as many of us would like to believe.

I got into this aboyt 10 years ago BECAUSE in a bunch of reading of gun magazines (some pretty scientific) I could not find a "hard" ratio of increased case capacity to muzzle velocity. Through a lot of computer work with empirical data, I found the ratio was just about 1/4: Increasing powder capacity by any amount results in just about 1/4 that amount in muzzle velocity.

Otherwise (and related to what we just went through with the .30-06 and .338-06) the .300 Rem. Ultra Mag would get twice the velocity of the .308 Winchester. This is obviously not the case, as the .300 RUM does not get 5400 fps with a 180-grain bullet (about twice the muzzle velocity possible with the 180 from a .308, even in a 26-inch barrel).

The article appeared about 2 years ago, I believe.

JB

Ok, I'm following along now. Yes I understand the friction will be greater due to the greater surface area of the 338 bore and expansion ration certainly comes into play. Expansion ratio would be a big factor and would reduce velocity even further if we used the same burning rate of powder. With the 338 we use faster powder and of course that is matching burn rate to the bore volume. The swept bore volume increases much more rapidly with the 338 vs the 308.

I guess I can accept the 1/4 of the area for a velocity gain since there are many factor at work here that I can't define or quantify. Actually if the 30-06 can launch a 200 grain at even 2700 fps that would get the 200 grain 338-06 to 2835, which it will do. So maybe this is just shooting from the key board. We agree on the velocity that can be achieved from the 338-06 and its various bullet weights, maybe I just haven't loaded enough 200 grainers in the '06.

I think the 300 RUM vs the 308 has an effeciency factor in there that we can calculate, however. In other words the amount of powder that is consumed at the all burnt point (%) is less for the RUM than the 308. Just a thought.

My background is radar engineering, I just pick up what I can in ballistics. I can do the math, though. Thanks for the response.

So should I just use the 210 partition on deer and find a different elk bulllet? Is the 225 TSX beatable? Or should I just grab some 250 Np's or TSX's? I do have a BAR safari 388WM. I just thought this gun would make a better hunter and be more durable.

Call Tye at Barnes (800-574-9200) and he will tell you that in thier test in shooting ballistics gellatin that the penetration difference between the 210 TXS and the 225 is a moot point and the 210 wieght suits the 06 size case better in my opion,with the TXS you can shoot a lighter wieght than with a lead core bullet and still get adequate pentration

I'm no gun writer so please forgive the transgression..

I'm going to give my "looney" answer.

I'm going to have a barrel in .338-06 made up for the simple loony reason that I have a Stevens 200 with an 06 sized bolt head, about 500-1,000 Hornady 225 gr bullets and a nice McMillan KS Mtn Rifle stock for said rifle on order from Rick to house the soon to be switch barreled rifle.

I've got .270, .270 WSM, .35 Whelen, .243, 6.5X55, .223, .30-30, .300 Savage in other rifles so why not add .338-06...I'm just shooting 130 lb Ga whitetails at spitting distances anyway

I don't expect miracles from this cartridge, I will bet that when I point it straight, dead critters will happen.

Mike

Hmmm... real data (grin).

2,800 @ 61000 sounds about right in a 24" bbl.

Funny, as I said, I found it easy to get to 2,750 with a 210 in my 338-06 using a load of H4350 below the Hodgdon manual's max.

Also is funny, I've never been able to reach more than 2,600 with a 200 grainer in any 22" 30-06 I've loaded for with the much touted H4831. Will have to try H4350 one of these days...

Mathematical gyrations aside, I think it's obvious that a 210 gr bullet in .338" in no way compares to a 200 grain .308 cal. except they both kill elk quite dead.

Brad I had an old Sako 24" barrel that would get 2700 fps with H-4831 and a 200 Partion. I have cronoed that same load in 2 other 06's one with a 26 3/4" barrel and another 24" and they would not get there. I have settled on H-4350 and 180 grainers in my 06

I double checked and found that I cronoed that samr load in 3 other 06's 2 were 24" and the one 26 3/4"

Shows a guy what a difference any individual barrel can make, eh?

I'd go with the Barnes 225SX or the 250s. I have 250s. The speed of the bullet is not what makes it good or bad, but the way it works, expands, etc.. I had a friend who was using 87gr 6mm bullets on deer, and found they blew up if bone hit, and didn't exactly penetrate that well on side shots. told him, that's because they are made for groundhogs, not deer. I believe in matching the bullet to the game, and the bullet companies have told me that in most instances (maybe the Nosler par. and Barnes T.Sx.are made for heavier stuff) the lighter 338 bullets are made for Deer. Elmer Keith developed this round, then called the 333OKH and he didn't use anything lighter than a 250, and a lot of time the 275s. I think a lot of shooters out there don't really get to hunt that much, and haven't really had any experience with the bullets they are talking about. I also (sorry to say it) think there are a lot of folks who go buy a big bad caliber, then can't take the recoil with the bullet weights that they should be shooting in it, so go down in weight to be able to say they are shooting X, but not really getting the performance out of it they should. Sort of like shooting the 235gr bullets in a 375. they are NOT made to hunt Elk with. will they kill one. Sure, it if's hit right on a nice classic side shot. But will they kill one if it's hit from the back edge of the rib cage. Probably not, because it will stop in the paunch. Hell, I shot a Zebra from the back end, with my 375 at about 20 yards, using the 300gr RN, and it didn't go all the way forward. My 338/06 is a model 700, with the 06 barrel rebored to 338. So doesn't weigh a lot, and does have some jump to it. But cured some of that by getting a new, longer, stock that fit me better (the one on it had been cut down for a woman to use). I have one because I've always wanted one, but in reality, think the 06, especially with the bullets we have today, will kill most anything in the US, and most stuff in Africa fine. I killed a nice Eland with my wifes 06, and a 165gr nosler Partition, on a raking shot, like described above. Bullet hit at the back edge of the rib cage, on the left (where the stomach is) and ended up in the right shoulder. I think at the end of this long discussion you said you'd be shooting deer in a swamp at spitting distance, so there I'd go ahead and use the 200-210s, but have a load available with the 250s for Elk. In MY 338/06, it'll shoot the 250s into one ragged hole at a 100 yds, but won't group the 210s that well. I'm hoping to get back to Africa this summer/fall, and will probably take the 338/06 along, just because I want to. But might end up taking the 06, as know it'll do anything I need it to, especially if loaded with quality bullets. I have the Barnes X and (shoot forget the brand, is from Australia)ones in soft points, for the 338/06, and MIGHT even get some of the A-square dead softs, for it. I'll take my 375 for the Buff. If I take the 06, will use either Barnes triple shocks in 165, or the Swifts, probably the Sciroccos, as most plains game in Africa as small or smaller then a white tail.

Mike 81,

For elk all you will need is a 210gr NP or TSX. Go with a 225gr if you feel the need. Like I stated above, a 250gr just is not needed unless after DG.

Mule Deer,
I was wondering about your "math" article last night. So thank you for putting all in a post.

The penetration difference is a no brainer. But I don't think the extra 25% is needed.

As far as the shot count. Neither of the second shots were needed, but I sent them on their way.

The first was a special cow hunt that was kind of a circus and I didn't want to get into a my elk vs your elk situation.

The second, was a shot on basically a once in a lifetime bull elk tag(2006). I was a couple miles from the truck, starting to snow, right at dark. I didn't think an insurance shot would hurt. Even though he was in the four legged death stance after the first.

I had been in on a few elk shot with 270's. Killed them deader than heck. But my problem was the reaction of the elk. They just didn't really act like they were hit hard. I was used to the 270's effect on deer/antelope.

So when I drew a special tag (1997), I felt I wanted a bigger elk gun. That's when I got the 338 WM. As stated before worked great. But there is just something about a belted case and magnumitis that turned me off.

In my subjective opinion, elk act like they are hit harder with 338 caliber and above. This is from my experience, which pales to yours. I have only been in on a couple dozen elk kills.

My loads for the 210gr NP are right at 2725fps, 2 grains below book max with Rel 15.

My load for the 210gr TSX is right at book max for Varget, and runs about 2840fps. I would love to pressure test this load, but I do not have the equipment. Everything looks and measures OK for pressure. I was not pushing this load, just happened to be where it shot the best. 0.5gr more and started showing pressure signs.

I've easily gotten 2600+ fps with 200 gr bullets in four different 30-06's using published loads of RL22, H4831, and AA3100. According to any of the ballistic data I've found, by 200yds it has nearly caught up with the .30 180grs and passed the 200gr and 210gr .338-06 just as MD stated.